Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2015-10-30 | 2015-11-01 →
trinque: I'm just mocking the poverty of $oldboss
v_diddy: oh yeah
v_diddy: no this was something different
v_diddy: "5k bonus pool cash, divvied up amongst ye, or 5k of lotto tickets (purchased at my convenience store) divvied up amongst ye"
v_diddy: trinque: man can i get $legendaryshitshow1 and $...2 from that guy yet?
trinque: people still work for him?
v_diddy: anyways, at a high level, one aspect of the wager i'm making here is that if a moron like me can with dilligence and self-discipline figure out how to turn a dollar into a buck twenty, if i bring the discipline and insist on the dilligence, i oughta be able to crap out at least one kid that can support me through $enddayz when my meatwot is all dead and dried up
v_diddy: mircea_popescu: i found your next joinpartspamtarget
mircea_popescu: for crying out loud.
mircea_popescu: in other news : eggplant salad in mayo goes well with the local malbec.
assbot: Dilbert Comic Strip on 1992-08-02 | Dilbert by Scott Adams ... ( )
assbot: Pétition · Tell Scott Adams that raping a woman is not a natural instinct. · ... ( )
v_diddy: the dumb thing would be for the petition initiator, right?
mircea_popescu: obama bin bimbo
v_diddy: and to set your own bar and then fail to jump it?
mircea_popescu: you don't understand how dumb women work.
trinque: so this petition gets "upboated" or w/e they called it here, and Obama is supposed to tell him "nuh uh"
v_diddy: oh this is an obab product
v_diddy: so where does the magic 5K number come from?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10620 @ 0.00054525 = 5.7906 BTC [+] {2}
trinque: originally, perhaps the "nuh uh" is collectivised now
mircea_popescu: in other news, wrestling has progressed much since the old days of andy kaufman. they now tagteam women :
v_diddy: ah oh man
v_diddy: change dot org
v_diddy: too funny
mircea_popescu: si el presente es de lucha, el futuro es nuestro!
asciilifeform: lulz from tlp's commentz:
asciilifeform: 'In a little less than four decades, college tuition has risen 1400%. Housing costs have gone up 3100%. Gasoline has increased 1800%. Wages, on the other hand, have gone up 322%. The average increase in the three areas I have mentioned comes to 20 times. If income had kept pace with expenses, and if I were earning an amount equivalent to what my father earned in the 1960s, I would be making over one million dollars a year.'
asciilifeform: hay mas futuro, indeed.
BingoBoingo: <v_diddy> really? scratch-offs are provably trustable now? << Even more of a Gamble in Illinois. Prize over $600, get paid maybe nevar.
mircea_popescu: hay mas futuro, pero no para todos.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty sure that was al schwart's usenet sig for a while
mircea_popescu: anyway, the problem is this : out of a billion people, his father in 1960 was part of a group of a million, and the other 999 million were more than happy to be coolies. today, the author is part of the group of the useless.
mircea_popescu: i would be very thankful he makes > 1k a year.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a pauper's burial costs 5x this in usa.
asciilifeform: so it will have to be soap.
mircea_popescu: either that or flush them in one of those special hopsital toilets
mircea_popescu: made for real big people.
asciilifeform recalls the tale of dog-sized garbage disposals in a certain lab
v_diddy: mircea_popescu: re "powerful men behaving badly" is this symmetric with "powerful women behaving badly"?
mircea_popescu: can powerful women behave badly ?
mircea_popescu: take a moment and give me a scenario.
asciilifeform: what's this even mean
v_diddy: can you give me a scenario of a powerful man behaving badly?
mircea_popescu: yes. the original one : you have to put a golden bubble around your kid's neck so powerful man behaving badly knows to rape some other kid in the gaggle of kids your kid's playing with.
mircea_popescu: what's she gonna do, suck them ALL off ?
asciilifeform: if it's golden, the fella will just steal it. gotta be trotyl bubble..
v_diddy: asciilifeform: motorbikenuke!
mircea_popescu: fun fact : my latest piece, 10101 words.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wasn't a problem at the time, somehow.
mircea_popescu: (the somehow is explained in the anonimity article)
v_diddy gives up now
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: help me out, how do you say 'беспредел' in english ?
mircea_popescu: independence.
v_diddy: in *other* news, gcaptain is an *awesome* blog
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope
asciilifeform: it is a specific term from su prison lexicon
mircea_popescu: hey, you asked how i say!
assbot: U.S. Navy Sailor, Wife Plead Guilty to Dealing Heroin on Warship - gCaptain ... ( )
asciilifeform: literally 'state of no bounds', in the least desirable possible sense
mircea_popescu: lemme fish out that article.
assbot: Ship Photo of the Day - A Glimpse Into the Unmanned Containership of the Future? - gCaptain ... ( )
asciilifeform: what i originally wanted to note was the 'powerful' does not necessarily mean 'respects no bounds', could - if this is a stable convention for some reason - respect the gold bubbles
assbot: Un prophète on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
assbot: Dispute Over Rigged Ship Engine Tests Adds to Volkswagen's Woes - gCaptain ... ( )
trinque: v_diddy: neat, surely armed security though?
assbot: Anonimity, or the urban versus rural dispute. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: the bubble is a honest signal.
asciilifeform: how else could it possibly work
v_diddy: trinque: rly? nigerians commandeering a freshly-built winxp ship?
v_diddy: anyways. gcaptain.
trinque: seems like it creates an immediate market for hack tools like what they use to take down drones
v_diddy: dude mircea_popescu would you handle agorecki and therealjohngalt while you're at it?
asciilifeform: trinque: anyone who moves valuables on a gps-steered robot is asking for it
assbot: ... ( )
v_diddy: asciilifeform: ah, but the tightly-coupled gps-imu
v_diddy: with its own sounding rockets that relay the real gps signal back to the launch platform!
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v_diddy: 4 days, 36 hours y'all.
asciilifeform: v_diddy: for a boat, it is really not hard to set up mechanized stellar tracker
v_diddy: autoastrolabe!
v_diddy: yes, i was typing something along the lines of "anyways, using gps for mission critical anything is braindamaged. you're better off with dead reckoning and navigation by star."
v_diddy: anyways, the "drone" comms are /entirely/ unencrypted.
v_diddy: rc aircraft idem.
asciilifeform: toy store machine, toy store crypto
v_diddy: *another* killer application of gossipd.
v_diddy goes shuffling through drawers for the uav wargames notes
asciilifeform: how's gossipd relate ?
v_diddy: swarm coordination
mircea_popescu: i don't get this : not like you can't put encryption on top of a clear channel
v_diddy: mircea_popescu: uav/rc suffers from the pile of chairs problem
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why would toy maker bother.
v_diddy: if you want the systems to behave sanely, you have to rewrite everything down to the wire protocols
v_diddy digs
mircea_popescu: well toy maker i dunno, but you can do it if you care.
asciilifeform: a matched set of rf boxes that 9600 bauds in either direction, and you can do what you like with the outs, is commercial sop and costs maybe ten bux.
v_diddy: ehehahueahuaehu this aughta set asciilifeform off
asciilifeform: v_diddy: famous crown corp.
v_diddy: i am intimately familiar!
asciilifeform: they sell 'verified' crypto to usg
v_diddy: have worked with them numerously!
asciilifeform: the document appears to describe standard gcm/aes. snore.
v_diddy: aha but haskell!11
v_diddy: "have haskell, will travel"
v_diddy: corp motto.
asciilifeform: i thought that was jane street co.
v_diddy: quants?
v_diddy: what traveling do quants do, they work for the bank.
asciilifeform does not know.
v_diddy: anyways, first brush with "security industry"
v_diddy: impression i walked away with was that of nerd's protection racket
v_diddy: "oh your wordpress is very very insecure. it has shared php hosting. you need to spend $maxint to migrate to custom blablabla with frufrufru to protect your reputation and reduce the risk of br34ches!1"
asciilifeform: laundry.
v_diddy: laundry?
asciilifeform: nobody gives a rat's arse what they purportedly make.
asciilifeform: favourite sons need warm nest.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19109 @ 0.00054547 = 10.4234 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu << i have no idea if you have the ru to appreciate this, but it is rather like a distilled version of 11 or so of your articles
assbot: Как правильно допрашивать перед расстрелом (Меняйлов) - YouTube ... ( )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
v_diddy: there were more players.
mircea_popescu: doesn't wanna play for some reason.
asciilifeform: i might do a translation at some point, if mircea_popescu can find a box where it plays.
mircea_popescu: gee look at that, an hour's worth of video
mircea_popescu: not sure i wouldn't rather read the 11 articles
asciilifeform only saw 10 min
punkman: bon dia
mircea_popescu: "The media's preferred symbol for the disintegration of public order is looting, i.e the opposite of shopping."
punkman: indeed. on a sidenote, all the recent instances of looting around here were mobs taking food from supermarkets, not widescreen TVs.
mircea_popescu: wait, greece is in looting mode ?
punkman: not really, it has happened a few time in past decade though
punkman: usually same demographic as the kids throwing rocks and molotovs at cops, not actual hungry people
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punkman: v_diddy: congrats, καλορίζικο και καλοτάξιδο
v_diddy: ty! and here's hoping.
punkman: asciilifeform: a tenured prof is prolly the closest thing that presently exists in the western world to ~titled nobility~ << I don't buy it. Back when tenure was a thing, they wanted to keep professors around until parts started falling off. Now there's an endless stream of "professors", and gotta hire them so they can say "our PHDs get jobs"
asciilifeform: punkman: where i live, tenure is still a thing. in that the courts have held it to be a perverse kind of nontransferable property interest
asciilifeform: quite like nobility in the old days
v_diddy: tenured professors can kill with impunity?
asciilifeform: v_diddy: 'noble' meant very different things in different places.
punkman: (kill == bad grades)
asciilifeform: e.g., poland, where a good 7-10% of the place were, nominally, 'szlachta'
asciilifeform: punkman: the folks who 'gotta hire endless stream' of are called 'instructors' here.
asciilifeform: they are lower than dirt on the org chart.
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assbot: On Trigger Warnings | AAUP ... ( )
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00054554 = 5.4554 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: !up Chameleous
mircea_popescu: " If you wanted to learn, you headed towards where the books were and the people who could read them and that meant the great universities like Paris and Oxford."
mircea_popescu: it meant paris. what the fuck is this "oxford"
mircea_popescu: derpy brits keep trying to retcon their insignificant island into things.
punkman: mircea_popescu: oxford was never great?
mircea_popescu: the thesis was whether oxford was there in the original wot. it was not.
mircea_popescu: at the time the paris university was starting the entire university thing, the king of france wouldn't have traded a middling french province for all of england ; which also he didn't.
mircea_popescu: at the time, the english were exactly like the 1600s scots (see their darien gap adventure). so they copied the bitcoin out of some idle kids and some peasants, which ended kloinking each other in the head.
mircea_popescu: three centuries later the dutch conquered england, moved their fleet there and so yes oxford eventually flourished. but the claim that it was "there in the 13th century" is spurious.
mircea_popescu: as a ready shorthand, remember that in 1400 the entire material production of the entire archipelago was worth about the same as that of one neighbourhood in milan.
punkman: i see. pretty dense history lesson there
mircea_popescu: the whole fantasy is very cs-scientist level of naive. read villon's testament - it should make it very plain what the point of university life was cca 1500 : THAT YOU COULD WALK IT.
mircea_popescu: everyone had one, and you could walk from basel to luxembourg.
mircea_popescu: this was immense - at the time a peasant who wanted to move, provided he somehow managed, had to fucking drag his entire possessions, on a rug. no wheels even, because too fucking techy for a peasant.
mircea_popescu: whereas the vagabond could carry all his possessions in his head!
mircea_popescu: THIS is why peasant chicks wistfully wisted for l'etudiant. because it is fucking fascinating, you are seriously telling me you can ~just go~ ?!?!?!
mircea_popescu: how do you do that from oxford, you swim the channel or something ?
mircea_popescu: england wasn't part of the party, not at that time.
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21617 @ 0.00054814 = 11.8491 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Billion Dollar Blimp Victim of Police Shooting | Qntra ... ( )
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28500 @ 0.00055058 = 15.6915 BTC [-]
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14900 @ 0.00055175 = 8.2211 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48084 @ 0.00055201 = 26.5428 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: i feel very dense now...v_diddy is sean combs? and you all congrat him for what?
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danielpbarron: it's ben_vulpes and it means he's a father
jurov: lol
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jurov: mircea_popescu: in your quest for other non-derpy irc chans, have you tried #lisp?
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shinohai: Felicidades v_diddy btw, had my head in the clouds the past few hours.
shinohai: !up coinaday
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assbot: After guilty plea, judge confused as to why prosecutors still want iPhone unlocked | Ars Technica ... ( )
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 148750 @ 0.00055832 = 83.0501 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: Wikileaks honeypot/SAIC whistlebreaker update ... ( )
asciilifeform: 'Wikileaks is not offering a search of Cryptome - the files are hosted on their server as a honeypot for snatching user data for who knows what. There are subtle sneaky differences that give it away...'
assbot: Google threatens action against Symantec-issued SSL certificates following botched investigation | PCWorld ... ( )
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44970 @ 0.00054479 = 24.4992 BTC [-] {4}
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu didja know that it is impossible to produce a v-genesis for gnupg-1.4.10 ? it contains unprintable turds, yes ! e.g., the idiot 'localizators', po/*.gmo
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: and holy fuck, enough utf8 hieroglyphisms to kill five elephants
asciilifeform: (all over the place)
asciilifeform: where do i meet all of these mythical people who own a computer, use gpg, but do not know enough english to operate it without this garbage ?
asciilifeform: !up punkman
punkman: asciilifeform: is that because of the LC_ALL=C in vdiff?
asciilifeform: no such thing in there
asciilifeform: but more generally, unix diff is NOT FOR BINARIES
asciilifeform: ('binary' for n00bz is a file containing so much as one octet with its eighth bit set)
asciilifeform: funny how we keep having this thread.
punkman: dunno, I have a lot of code with unicode strings/comments
asciilifeform: that you wrote ?
punkman: sure
jurov: why shouldn't i be able to diff files with extended characters?
asciilifeform: jurov: there are specially-made tools for this (see the screenshots on mircea_popescu's www in the phuctor 3-parter article re: what i used)
phf: plan9's diff handles utf-8, the implicit decision here is that we're sticking to us-ascii
asciilifeform: it is what civilized people use when they program a computer.
punkman: also, wasn't LC_ALL=C needed for consistent ordering in diffs? I have it in mine
asciilifeform: punkman: i specifically did not include it in my signed copy of 'vdiff' because it is a workaround for people with broken boxes.
jurov: i want diff to be usable for any text files, not just code
asciilifeform: layering workarounds into the canon is precisely how we ended up with ball of shit.
jurov: and my code inevitably contains some localized strings
jurov: what workarounds?
asciilifeform: see, if symbolics corp. had won the war and the notion of 'character' was not braindamagedly bound to 'octet' - we would not be having this conversation.
asciilifeform: but it appears that all of the magic in the world did not suffice to retrofit a non-retarded notion of text onto unix
jurov: so? it is now bound to longint with special encoding
jurov: you know text was retarded from the very beginning
asciilifeform: jurov: witness what unix proggies that try to be 'special encoding'-aware look like.
asciilifeform: they look like garbage.
jurov: it was defined as "what fits into gets buffer
asciilifeform: trailing multimegabyte mystery libs
jurov: i understand but it does not mean it must be done that way
asciilifeform: it goes to the heart of how unix works
asciilifeform: streams operate bytewise
asciilifeform: with no notion of structure.
phf: jurov: problem is that there's no such thing as "any text file". a text file necessarily has an encoding, and your options are either standardize on an encoding (the way plan9 did it, with going all utf-8) or else carry massive machinery for supporting a range of encodings from utf-8 to shiftjis
asciilifeform: it is quite basic to the concept, to the extent there ever was a concept behind it.
asciilifeform: phf: even utf8 is a non-solution because there remain multiple glyph mappings
asciilifeform: and the variadic encoding is intrinsically gnarly
asciilifeform: now, a system with built-in notion of bignums (variable-length integers), e.g., lispm, does not suffer from any of this gnarl.
asciilifeform: but we haven't such a thing.
phf: utf-8 is a solution if you're ok iwth variadic encoding (though i've read many convincing arguments that utf-8 is new jersey brain dead), but the main issue is that full support of unicode is impossible withtout massive amounts of machinery. and you're going to butt head against the internal storage format and all the varieities of ucs-*, and ~then~ you're going to run into issues of normalization and multiple mappings and such
jurov: sigh. code to convert utf8 stream to wide char and back is 50 lines. with diff, one can safely ignore everything else, other encoding, nat'l sorting, normalized/unnormalized chars, etc.
jurov: no need to pull huge libs
asciilifeform: wide chars break unix.
asciilifeform: sorry. i did not invent unix
jurov: unix is broken by design
asciilifeform: no shit.
asciilifeform: as a native of what latinate folks regard as likewise a 'hieroglyphs' language, i STILL favour the abolition of 'hieroglyphs display on EVERY box'
asciilifeform: because it is inevitably a clusterfuck of complexity
asciilifeform: i favour the old msdos solution instead
jurov: well, you're bound to see your software broken by people who don't agree with you then
phf: jurov: i'm actually just trying to bridge your position and ascii's since i'm pretty indifferent personally to outcome of the decision. i used to latex by typing funny us-ascii combinations to produce cyrillic metafont renderings, and i also am intimately familiar with what's involved in support "other encoding, nat'l sorting, normalized/unnormalized chars", and it's a pita.
jurov: msdos code pages? srs?
asciilifeform: say jurov gotta see Žižek printed correctly
jurov: not just printed. i want to see diff working over it
jurov: and it is not so complicated as you paint it
asciilifeform: so he has a different set of glyphs above 0x80
asciilifeform: and i have another.
asciilifeform: jurov: the hard part is not diffing (diff readily diffs binaries)
asciilifeform: the hard part is printing.
asciilifeform: and parsing.
jurov: why?
jurov: printing is not your problem
jurov: and in any other cases where you don't have to choose exact glyph printed, you can ignore 99% of unicode spec
asciilifeform: jurov: go and find the src for gnu diff (it is in the logs) and see how much of the bulk and library load garbage is on account of non-latin.
jurov: because they opted to do other encodings, nat'l sorting, normalized/unnormalized chars, etc.
asciilifeform: jurov: so whatchawaiting for, write us a sane diff that behaves sanely on a typical unix box ?
jurov: they can be ignored.. and you supposedly ignore this argument :(
jurov: oh it won't behave sanely to your standars, anyway
asciilifeform: why not ?
jurov: "the variadic encoding is intrinsically gnarly" etc.
asciilifeform: it is a severe impedance mismatch with the unix philosophy.
asciilifeform: the merits of which are debatable, but a pure unix is a legitimate animal
asciilifeform: while a unix with weird shit hanging off the side is not a woman, but a bloke with cock lopped off
asciilifeform: jurov: do you own a copy of the lions book ?
kakobrekla: more like a woman with strap on
assbot: Logged on 22-10-2014 02:38:31; asciilifeform: othernubs`: see ubiquitous 'lions book' that we're imitating:
asciilifeform: ever wonder what is all of this RUBBISH that is in a typical unix that ISN'T found in the lions book ?
jurov: you'er basically insisting that anyone who wants to do 8bit stuff in unix should sit themselves on a stake instead, or resort to ms-dos style wankery
asciilifeform: not 8-bit stuff, jurov. varidic int stuff.
asciilifeform: *variadic
asciilifeform: they break streams! srsly
asciilifeform: even something like character count is now O(N) !
asciilifeform: but aside from this, it makes for 10-20x the lines of code for me to read.
asciilifeform: and 10-20x as many gnarly crevices in which to hide off-by-ones, etc
jurov: that shitgnomes use variadic encoding as a means to append bloat is not failure of said encoding. they'd find another outlet easily
jurov: like the msdos cases, 8bit streams were preserver, but the rest was utter mess
phf: jurov: variadic anywhere in your string handling machinery means that you no longer have a meaningful concept of string, i.e. nth printable character is an nth object in array, instead everything that you manipulate is a stream with a state machine attached. be that utf-8 at the encoding level, or ucs-4 at the storage level which brings in surrogates and supplementary characters
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jurov: phf i proposed just ignore them
phf: a typical solution is then, like you said, ignore 90% of unicode standard, which means that, instead of having a clean model to work with, you have a c++ solution of "we support this particular subset of c++, because the other parts we think are braindead"
jurov: nope
jurov: diff would compare just the entities and would expect normalized both inputs the same way
jurov: the normalization, sorting, etc. would be done by other tool
phf: oh, see..
jurov: so diff would stay simple
phf: i think the argument against that is that ascii is trying to build a b-a system starting with small tools out. if you're claiming to support unicode in your diff, that necessarily means that "done by other tool" is automatically included in the scope of future b-a work
jurov: and "concept of string".. something has to give, in this case "string"===="byte array"
punkman: diff works fine with utf-8 documents, doesn't it?
jurov: punkman: yes because there's whole unicode machinery implemented which ppl rightfully abhor
jurov: btw, that "string" = "byte array" thing, specifically people who like to do pointer arithmetic around it caused enough grief i won't miss it at all
jurov: *every* time i did anything nontrivial with #include <string.h> it ended up by drawing stuff on paper
phf: jurov: my personal concern is not "byte array" equivalency, but "object in array"
phf: a=['e', '´'] vs b=['é']. a[0] != b[0]
jurov: that's the braindamaged part, which should be dealt separately
jurov: and such tgins existed before, consider a="\t" vs b=" "
jurov: *things
phf: wut
jurov: you're expected to make it consistent before passing in to diff
jurov: or use "ignore whitespaces" kludge
jurov: same with normalization
jurov: instead of adding kludge to diff, be it extra step
phf: but i'm not talking about diff specifically, i'm saying that whatever decissions are being made about diff now are going to influence the kind of work we'll have to do in the future
phf: some hypothetical b-a os and internal consistency of the whole model. if you say "we support utf-8" here, you're also saying "we support unicode x.y" everywhere
jurov: otherwise you have to keep stuff 8-bit clean throughout, is that better?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21400 @ 0.00054901 = 11.7488 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: i mean, remove extended chars from everythign that goes in
phf: jurov: that's a question to ascii, as far as "better". my point is that "us-ascii" vs "utf-8" in v/vdiff has greater implications
jurov: ofc it has
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 112150 @ 0.00054686 = 61.3303 BTC [-] {4}
phf: i personally prefer the lc_ctype=koi8-r solution, but that's because i'm a retrograde :p
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00054932 = 9.6131 BTC [+] {3}
jurov: around 2000 i had on my system files and filenames in cp852, koi8, iso8859-2 and cp1250 encodings... no thanks
jurov: also as sysadmin had to configure samba to deal with them..nopenopenope. utf8 was definite improvement.
punkman: there is no unicode machinery in diff
phf: jurov: so did i, and i appreciate utf-8 in my music selection or random durp i download from the internet. i wouldn't care if there's some frequent surrogate issue with track file names, but i do care that i can't have a professional tool where that sort of questions have predictable, if not necessarily easy and fun answers
asciilifeform: punkman: this is disingenously true
jurov: there is i18n which behaves as described here
assbot: Logged on 20-08-2015 16:57:03; ascii_field: srsly, different sort order on different versions of 'diff' ?
asciilifeform: << a good chunk of the complexity IS THERE BECAUSE characters are EVER variadic
assbot: diffutils.git - GNU diff and patch utilities ... ( )
asciilifeform: and yes, jurov found the diff thread
asciilifeform: where we learned that yes, it is retarded in 1,001 ways
asciilifeform: all of them traceable to variadic chars
punkman: does it work with utf-16?
asciilifeform is l0lzing over how we are replacing the asciilifeform vs mircea_popescu debate on udp, with jurov playing the part of asciilifeform and asciilifeform playing the part of mircea_popescu
jurov: asciilifeform: i see thirs of the code dealing with various "ignore whitespace" kludges
jurov: *third
asciilifeform: punkman: it could work if no one were to ever use anything else. but the distinction between 'this is a binary blob and is to be cut into octets' vs 'this is a text blob and is to be cut into words' would remain
punkman: why does diff need to know about words?
asciilifeform: by 'words' i meant uint16_t's
punkman: my guess is it doesn't work with utf16 because it can't find linebreaks
asciilifeform: jurov: a good chunk of that complexity is on account of O(N) operations on strings made necessary by variads
asciilifeform: i suppose this is not a bad time for one of my usual batshit monologues:
jurov: can you point me to a line number? i fail to see it there
asciilifeform: why do you think no one has to date succeeded in 'bonfire of the unix' ?
asciilifeform: as in, cutting all the shitgnomatic crud until we have something like the lions book again ?
asciilifeform: the reason is that every time the surgeon begins to cut, he sees 'inoperable tumour'
asciilifeform: every time you stick in the knife, somebody says 'NOOOOOO! this is NECESSARY complexity...!'
asciilifeform: 'I'M JWZ AND I JUST WANT SHIT TO WURK!'
jurov: would bitcoin run on the lions book system?
asciilifeform: depends.
asciilifeform: therealbitcoin, as we have it, makes minimal use of gnarly unixisms. but its dependencies (incl. gcc and the toolchain) are another matter.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9200 @ 0.00054867 = 5.0478 BTC [-]
phf: could crosscompile the core, but openssl/boost, i don't even imagine the scope of that one
phf: actually i don't think v6 has threads
asciilifeform: phf: in case this wasn't obvious, i was not speaking of a ~literal~ return to v6
phf puts back his lion's copy
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8299 @ 0.0005494 = 4.5595 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14493 @ 0.0005494 = 7.9625 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38577 @ 0.00054805 = 21.1421 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8598 @ 0.00054813 = 4.7128 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: jurov awake ?
jurov: yes?
asciilifeform: could you plz check turdatron ?
asciilifeform: it ate my shit, for the 1,001th time.
asciilifeform: this is REALLY getting old.
jurov: yes, i'm doing it on purpose
asciilifeform not blaming jurov
mircea_popescu: actually as frustrating as it is, iirc there was always a good reason
asciilifeform got tired, and,
assbot: Loper OS » MPI sans the mud. ... ( )
asciilifeform: ^^^ mircea_popescu et al ^^^
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform myeah.
mircea_popescu: ie, yes, i knew.
asciilifeform: kudos to mircea_popescu for supplying a blessed version of the package.
mircea_popescu: what is this, capitalist merit ?
asciilifeform: and many anti-kudos to the authors of the package for making me do what i had to do.
asciilifeform: errata. item 4 should say '(1), (2), and (3)' instead of '(1) and (2)'.
mircea_popescu: lol funny how this happens.
mircea_popescu: jurov haven't, no.
jurov: asciilifeform ok, nm, on it
asciilifeform: jurov: no worries, already posted.
asciilifeform: to my www.
asciilifeform: << reload page for errata section.
assbot: Loper OS » MPI sans the mud. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: << if the "there are subtle" were actually a specific list, i would be much more convinced.
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 14:21:34; asciilifeform: 'Wikileaks is not offering a search of Cryptome - the files are hosted on their server as a honeypot for snatching user data for who knows what. There are subtle sneaky differences that give it away...'
mircea_popescu: as it is - cryptome is the whistlebreaking device.
asciilifeform: could easily both serve hitler.
mircea_popescu: and that what they attempt to do with the recently stolen item is to try and muddy up wikileaks is, at least to my eyes informative.
mircea_popescu: a) they know the secret is out, so this candle is burning - gotta use it NOW for maximum impact
mircea_popescu: b) they still hate assange.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is a huge wall of fire between easily and probably.
mircea_popescu: an ufo chock full of partying alien sluts on alien spring break could ~easily~ land in brooklyn too
asciilifeform expected mircea_popescu to make this observation.
mircea_popescu: good for you, shows your ties to sanity are strong :D
asciilifeform: except that i'm not convinced that cryptome was ever a human thing
asciilifeform: and didn't always serve hitler.
mircea_popescu: i never really followed it.
mircea_popescu: i suppose the people who inform me also didn't think much of it.
mircea_popescu: << the point is not that they exist. the point is that nsa decided cca 1990 that IN THE FUTURE tm/r it WANTS them to exist.
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 15:09:58; asciilifeform: where do i meet all of these mythical people who own a computer, use gpg, but do not know enough english to operate it without this garbage ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40250 @ 0.00055338 = 22.2735 BTC [+] {5}
mircea_popescu: wouldn't it be great if you couldn't read azn code because "if" was written in coolie ?
mircea_popescu: back then they still hoped china might be just a sort of magical closet.
mircea_popescu: and it was important to separate the cowstumers from the coolies.
asciilifeform: actually it mostly ~is~ a closet. 99.999% of the cn code publicly known on the net (in any attributable way) is wincrud.
asciilifeform: the kind entirely unusable anywhere sane at all.
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 15:32:52; jurov: i want diff to be usable for any text files, not just code
mod6: asciilifeform thx for posting the MPI stuff.
mircea_popescu: text means a very specific thing. latin alphabet. nothing else. if you'd rather work with 文本, work with 文本.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform myeah.
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 16:37:36; *: asciilifeform is l0lzing over how we are replacing the asciilifeform vs mircea_popescu debate on udp, with jurov playing the part of asciilifeform and asciilifeform playing the part of mircea_popescu
asciilifeform is a 2-pass compiler apparently
mircea_popescu: explain this to me. what the fuck is a "sane notion of text" ?
mircea_popescu: just because you can elegantly package idiocy in sexpr does not alter what text is
mircea_popescu: and just because you can't see where this problem breaks shit down from where you sit doesn't mean it's not gonna. it will.
asciilifeform: one that fits will into the architecture of the machine.
jurov: meh. i'll believe you both when you in the names of simplicity, shot "ignore whitespaces" too.
asciilifeform: and yes, this is bidirectional.
mircea_popescu: this is entirely beyond the fucking point.
mircea_popescu: a badly defined notion CAN NEVER fit well into a machine
mircea_popescu: no matter how elegant the pretense can be made to appear.
mircea_popescu: jurov da fuck is "ignore whitespaces" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'text' is merely a subprogram for a program that displays glyphs. any other definition is braindamaged and will have to be paid for, again and again, until replaced with a sane one.
mircea_popescu: and i will ritously say this is americanism at its finest. "oh, i like this girl, what need of her fambly ? we'll just live together under a blanked of sky, alone, like those two kids in the chinese myth!".
mircea_popescu: "oh, hurr, i kinda like the bible and my name is john smith".
mircea_popescu: this is not how things fgucking work. text means latin.
asciilifeform: should we also abolish case?
asciilifeform: punctuation ?
mircea_popescu: no, you shgouldn't have abolished case.
asciilifeform: (rome lacked either)
jurov: mircea_popescu: "ignore whitespaces" is half of the source alf posted me as example
mircea_popescu: just because bunches of barbarians "do without" the ablative doesn't mean they can fucking think in their pigdin
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i beg your pardon ?!
asciilifeform: nono, upper/lower case
mircea_popescu: you mean in iconography ?
mircea_popescu: i count myself fortunate you don't know about j/g
asciilifeform knows about j and v/u
mircea_popescu: what shall we do ;/
asciilifeform: anyway the reason to have a sane notion of text and glyphs is not so that coolies can write hieroglyphs but so that one can speak of mathematics.
asciilifeform: (if no other reason is needed.)
asciilifeform: but on unix we can't really have this conversation at all.
asciilifeform: we are in afghan, making kalash from umbrella.
mircea_popescu: you god damned mathematician folk and your insane demands of language.
mircea_popescu: damn you all to hell and eternal torment!
asciilifeform already there
asciilifeform spins on stake
mircea_popescu: should have taken a god fearting major like the letters.
asciilifeform: eh i'd be spewing greek then
asciilifeform: same problem.
mircea_popescu: im going to have breakfast before i pop a vein
asciilifeform wanders off in the direction of pet
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29900 @ 0.00055465 = 16.584 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87250 @ 0.00055563 = 48.4787 BTC [+] {3}
v_diddy: << very educational to watch drmeister and co hammer on clasp
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 11:45:24; jurov: mircea_popescu: in your quest for other non-derpy irc chans, have you tried #lisp?
mircea_popescu: maybe when i retire i'll learn to lisp.
jurov: v_diddy: my late congrats!
mircea_popescu: he said late ha ha *snort*
v_diddy: aahuehuaehuaehuahahaehua
v_diddy: thanks jurov
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20450 @ 0.0005486 = 11.2189 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55550 @ 0.00055573 = 30.8708 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9950 @ 0.00055572 = 5.5294 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13576 @ 0.00055606 = 7.5491 BTC [+] {2}
deedbot-: [Trilema] The quest ; and its resolution -
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14450 @ 0.00055642 = 8.0403 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: (though i've read many convincing arguments that utf-8 is new jersey brain dead) << al lyou need to know is that it's what seems to have been left standing once the pain of "gotta support bullshit" washed off.
mircea_popescu: << hey, i nullrouted orc glyphs in romanian text! not even computing, literature.
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 15:43:21; asciilifeform: as a native of what latinate folks regard as likewise a 'hieroglyphs' language, i STILL favour the abolition of 'hieroglyphs display on EVERY box'
mircea_popescu: << once they broke it it's no longer mine, it's theirs.
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 15:43:52; jurov: well, you're bound to see your software broken by people who don't agree with you then
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63350 @ 0.00055684 = 35.2758 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 16:17:23; jurov: *every* time i did anything nontrivial with #include <string.h> it ended up by drawing stuff on paper
mircea_popescu has said "AT THE VERY FUCKING LEAST!!!1 separate this mess into string.h and non-string.h god damned it!!1"
mircea_popescu: "localization" makes even office fucking management a nightmare.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28050 @ 0.00055117 = 15.4603 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: << the more i think abvout it the more i understand the "display has its own computer" cut of this gordian knot.
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 16:35:52; asciilifeform: << a good chunk of the complexity IS THERE BECAUSE characters are EVER variadic
shinohai: ;;later tell mod6 Success I guess?
assbot: dpaste: 3WH9Q58 ... ( )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 16:46:49; asciilifeform: phf: in case this wasn't obvious, i was not speaking of a ~literal~ return to v6
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 16:41:36; asciilifeform: every time you stick in the knife, somebody says 'NOOOOOO! this is NECESSARY complexity...!'
mircea_popescu: i has lulzed enough to last me the month.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38957 @ 0.00055172 = 21.4934 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: re asciilifeform mpi : the actual extraction, and especially auditing of the rng is a very worthy project.
mircea_popescu: it mighgt even tie in with the phuctor.
mod6: shinohai: yeah, looks like it worked. thanks!
shinohai: next stop Ubuntu
mod6: thx1
shinohai: np, glad to be back on track
jurov: asciilifeform: sadly i don't have your message because it started eating the bounces for yet unknown reason
mircea_popescu: you clearly don't feed that thing enough.
jurov: spam isn't as nutritional as i thought, seems
jurov: you're welcome to resend it to or otherwise publish
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55050 @ 0.00055228 = 30.403 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: "Whenever I see a reference to a statement that seems insane to me, two things will be true: 1. It will take me as long to get the study as it did to conduct the study, i.e. 45 minutes. No hyperlink. No free access. Then I have to go into the university's PubMed, which takes me through three windows to Science Direct or some other outlet. Why, oh why, can't I just click "(15)" in the original paper and immediately
mircea_popescu: see it? Because: 2. It will turn out to be actually insane, and the only part of the reference that will support the statement will be the title."
assbot: How to deal with pseudoscience ? on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: aka "any claim as to science or studies done made in english, or by a libtard, or in support of notions not found in the literature of 1800 is to be dismissed out of hand."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7939 @ 0.00055417 = 4.3996 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24795 @ 0.00055843 = 13.8463 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_field
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 21:34:31; mircea_popescu: << the more i think abvout it the more i understand the "display has its own computer" cut of this gordian knot.
deedbot-: [Qntra] US DoD Extracts Guilty Pleas From Mom and Pop Competitors -
ascii_field: it by itself was a pretty fast 16bit comp with multiple cpu !
assbot: Logged on 21-10-2015 00:56:46; asciilifeform: connects to the box itself with a thick triax cable
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35500 @ 0.00055746 = 19.7898 BTC [-] {3}
ascii_field: << what if i admitted to having extracted it...
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 21:45:55; mircea_popescu: re asciilifeform mpi : the actual extraction, and especially auditing of the rng is a very worthy project.
ascii_field: (deliberately not released with the mpi, because imho they are separate concerns)
ascii_field: there are 3 separate rng subsystems in gpg 1.4 - but more on this later)
ascii_field: << yknow, if you want at&t sysv for pc, you can have! some nut ported...
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 21:43:27; mircea_popescu: i has lulzed enough to last me the month.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18485 @ 0.0005587 = 10.3276 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 31-10-2015 22:29:23; mircea_popescu: "Whenever I see a reference to a statement that seems insane to me, two things will be true: 1. It will take me as long to get the study as it did to conduct the study, i.e. 45 minutes. No hyperlink. No free access. Then I have to go into the university's PubMed, which takes me through three windows to Science Direct or some other outlet. Why, oh why, can't I just click "(15)" in the original pap
ascii_field: but i thought mircea_popescu ~liked~ paywalls...?
ascii_field: or only likes his?
BingoBoingo: !v assbot:BingoBoingo.rate.peterl.1:0a8a8858ddc91f3e623eaa68eb5a4aa37e77c9a8840c191ff70fb388b75c88e1
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for peterl with note: writes stuff on occasion.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they are separate concerns.
mircea_popescu: also one of those things hwere more work (esp by students) is never wasted
mircea_popescu: such as computing pi or measuring h
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i also like cocks (mine) and women (my own) and so on.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "granted immunity to former detective Austin, Texas police detective Charles Kleinert "
BingoBoingo: fck, fxd
BingoBoingo: Dependopotami are real
assbot: MFW my husband asks me if I'll work out while he's deployed. : TrollXChromosomes ... ( )
mircea_popescu: multicultural studies : : "Naomi Klein (nacida en Montreal, Canadá, el 8 de mayo de 1970) es una periodista e investigadora canadiense de gran influencia en el movimiento antiglobalización y el socialismo democrático" ; poppedia.en : "Naomi Klein (born May 8, 1970) is a Canadian author, social activist, and filmmaker known for her political analyses and criticism of corporate globalization and of corpora
mircea_popescu: te capitalism."
mircea_popescu: why are the spanishtards so unsophisticated ?
mircea_popescu: and it goes into weird from there, "tercera via" is a thing for the spanishtards
mircea_popescu: (amusingly, they omit versioning for good reason. ceausescu's aparatchicks also had a "third way", like did the russians, like the peronisto-kirscherists, cuba is in its very own tercera via like is korea like is venezuela like that native midget what's his name sinking peru etc.
mircea_popescu: i guess easier to count all insanity as third rather than actually increment the accumulator and handle overflows.
mircea_popescu: <<< best ever analysis of "ows" derpage. so good i don't even want to write one myself.
assbot: The Last Psychiatrist: You Are The 98% ... ( )
mircea_popescu: ""Marching gets our message out." No it doesn't, it gets CNN's message out. "We don't watch CNN, we use the internet." Yet given the infinity of the internet you still surf the same 5 websites, looking for and finding exactly what you want, like a baby playing peekaboo in a mirror over and over and over and over and over and over and..."
assbot: The ‘driest place on Earth’ is covered in pink flowers after a crazy year of rain - The Washington Post ... ( )
mircea_popescu: that's pretty cool
hanbot: lotus harlots, perhaps
jurov: asciilifeform: found your email after all.
assbot: [BTC-dev] MPI Genesis. (Possibly Off-Topic!) ... ( )
jurov: gmail in its infinite wisdom decided to label README as application/octet-stream
jurov: and thus mailman did not look for signatures there
mircea_popescu: kludge upon kludge
deedbot-: [Qntra] Qntra (S.QNTR) October 2015 Report -
BingoBoingo: !up coinaday
shinohai: mod6: V isn't finding my .wot directory in arm :/
shinohai: nm found where it barfed.
mod6: it's all good now?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5284 @ 0.00055459 = 2.9305 BTC [-]
shinohai: yeah building just as good, albeit slower being what it is.
mod6: hmm ok. thanks for testing
deedbot-: [Trilema] Why is it the end ? -
assbot: The Autopilot is learning fast: Model S owners are already reporting that Tesla’s Autopilot is self-improving | Electrek ... ( )
jurov: A Model S owner .... kept a count of how many times he had to “rescue” (meaning taking control after an alert)
jurov: god save us
mircea_popescu enjoys human drivers.
jurov: i can imagine letting the car drive itself with the "rescues" can be exhilarating, but... brrrrr
jurov: is any other heavy machinery driven that way?
phf: asciilifeform: there's some leftover i18n in mpi
shinohai: There was that self-driving semi in cnn money a few minths ago
shinohai: *months
phf: and for the bored crowd in the audience, some code to add two bignums using ascii's mpi extraction,
jurov: !s MMM
assbot: 214 results for 'MMM' :
assbot: The same day MMM (global ponzi scheme using bitcoin) announces it is pausing operations, the bitcoin price drops $20 in a minute. This is totally coincidental and the recent $100 spike was caused purely by fundamentals and adoption : Buttcoin ... ( )
jurov: ^ MMM going to china
jurov: if Party wont stop it early that would be gigaclusterfuck :)
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 313.7, vol: 26698.93606532 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 304.975, vol: 8008.84387 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 317.16, vol: 40422.71983153 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 340.0, vol: 1.22457919 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 342.689423, vol: 55495.78770000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 315.1685, vol: 46.80657312 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 302.63741, vol: 119.31408839 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2450 @ 0.00055475 = 1.3591 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17500 @ 0.00055871 = 9.7774 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15608 @ 0.00055871 = 8.7203 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00055475 = 6.657 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00055751 = 2.3973 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 311.5, vol: 28404.29028917 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 304.85, vol: 7971.39491 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 316.07, vol: 41336.37433691 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 340.0, vol: 1.22457919 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 340.110716, vol: 55074.23610000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 315.1685, vol: 46.67222264 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 302.63741, vol: 119.31408839 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28650 @ 0.00055399 = 15.8718 BTC [-] {3}
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: 324.367351249
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31452 @ 0.00055342 = 17.4062 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 108700 @ 0.0005497 = 59.7524 BTC [-] {2}
← 2015-10-30 | 2015-11-01 →