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Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

ben_vulpes: "all testing" which is what we've seen to date.
mircea_popescu: of course the logical approach would be to promote to stable ml patches that were signed
mircea_popescu: which is why the fuck we evern have the complexsignature scheme in place.
mircea_popescu: plox tell me it's not one of those where everyone is waiting for me to do it first or something.
ben_vulpes: i tried once
ben_vulpes: fucked it up somehow
mircea_popescu: how about submiutting a "This doesn't work - don't use it" thing on the broken one
ben_vulpes: i'm all for barriers to entry here but this is a goddamn development obstacle course
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: broken << sure, yeah.
ben_vulpes is struck by the eerie resemblance to $dayjaeorb here
ben_vulpes: "here have a pull request"
ben_vulpes: "does it work?"
ben_vulpes: "i don't know, let's test it during code review"
ben_vulpes: grand exaggeration.
ben_vulpes: nevertheless.
decimation: I'm still confused about this map thing. does anyone know exactly which map ascii is talking about?
ben_vulpes: decimation: i'm still 1.5klol behind
decimation: this is an infinite argument amoung developers: 'repo is for good code', 'no repo is for new code as it is being written'
ben_vulpes: dvcs means we can all have a repo
ben_vulpes: the fewer enforced constraints upon us, the more discipline with which we must act.
BingoBoingo: Most intimidating part of current realbitcoin is where the fuck do I submit a diff from?
ben_vulpes: last release, i'd prefer. asciilifeform tends to stack his patches atop one another.
scoopbot_revived: No Such lAbs (S.NSA), July 2015 Statement
ben_vulpes: if you're up to date on the patching, submit a patch and note its antecedents.
ben_vulpes: this makes for quite the testing nightmare. those interested in testing must reverse applied patches to your antecedent tip and then apply yours.
ben_vulpes: from experience i know that the more difficult it is to test the software, the less likely anyone is to actually do so.
ben_vulpes: but this is bitcoin, where since time immemorial people have been shipping code that can only ever be tested in production and then standing by in amazement claiming that "nobody could have predicted!"
ben_vulpes: !s testing in production
assbot: 13 results for 'testing in production' :
trinque: hey yo, I made a lot of noise about process early on
trinque: then stepped back when shouted down
trinque: the patch signing is great, but it's not a process by itself
trinque: will either need tools built to support it, or will need to grab tools
trinque: I had a hell of a time figuring out where I should be re: patches, at least before giving up and using rotor instead.
ben_vulpes: i can just imagine the arguments
ben_vulpes: "a real contributor would write all of their own tooling to solve this"
ben_vulpes: "what's so hard about applying patches to your private repository?"
ben_vulpes: "what, you want to automate this process that keeps the tards at bay?"
trinque: the barrier can be "the devs are fucking vitriolic towards laziness"
trinque: then you can you know, use a power drill
trinque: and still work with non-dickheads
ben_vulpes: "what, you want to automate the nuclear power plant?"
trinque: hear fucking hear
ben_vulpes: i'm just trying to operate within these crazy boundaries. i don't have any process improvements that i'm sure wouldn't get shot down in a new york second from asciilifeform.
ben_vulpes: *i* have a repo. *it* has a *stable* and an *experimental* branch.
trinque: I bet it's in git too, you filthy swine
ben_vulpes: how much hell would i catch for sharing this with others?
ben_vulpes: of course!
trinque: look everything's bad. bad bad bad
trinque: I watched a guy drink himself to death because you know, unix wasn't everything-is-a-table
trinque: gonna rebuild everything on earth? or gonna start somewhere
decimation: I thought ascii was okay with repos as long as it was clear which patches 'caused' the repo state
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59768 @ 0.00050358 = 30.098 BTC [-] {3}
ben_vulpes: all i ever heard was "git=invitation for tard collaborators"
ben_vulpes: he can correct me if i'm wrong.
decimation: plus, his original theory was that others should read and sign. now this is good in theory, but in practice has no upside and all downside
decimation: (for signers)
trinque: you can do the same process better with a hierarchy of git repos
trinque: ffs
ben_vulpes: patches and signatures in the repository itself. i'd not be averse.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the patches 'stacked on one another' is an artifact of how diff works
ben_vulpes: i know this.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: ideas welcome !
ben_vulpes: can we share a git repository yet?
ben_vulpes: i'm not critiquing your patchstacking, note.
ben_vulpes: i will be off to eat shortly.
asciilifeform: btw the db patch is not marked with antecedents because it has none (since last release)
asciilifeform: (iirc the 40000 was set prior to it)
ben_vulpes: of course.
ben_vulpes to food
asciilifeform: and what's more, this is pretty clear from reading it.
asciilifeform: but yes, my particular ml posts are geared toward helping the folks i know to be presently involved ( ben_vulpes, mod6, trinque, mircea_popescu, shinohai, punkman, hanbot, who else?) to build.
asciilifeform: rather than for everyone on the planet.
trinque: all I'm grumpy about is having something structured to put the patches in, really, with branching
asciilifeform: trinque: please put, if it helps you
trinque: the patches page helps a bit, but for example seeing easily from where various experimental patches derive
asciilifeform: can even get your favourite version control gizmo to shit out patches
asciilifeform: (iirc ben_vulpes does this)
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu your www layout somehow cuts the lines on s.nsa statement
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ^ anyone else sees this?
asciilifeform: (graphical browser)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 114645 @ 0.00052851 = 60.591 BTC [+] {3}
mod6: it does the same for me on multiple browsers too
asciilifeform: ;;later tell ben_vulpes i have nothing against 'git', 'mercurial', etc., and even sometimes use these in civilian life, there is even somewhere ~horror~ a 'github' page with my name and some old crud, yes. but the ~canonical walk from pedigreed 0.5.3 to therealbitcoin~ has to be in .patch form!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: it is the finger pushing in the plug into the hole the night leaks through.
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah my browser eats too (firefox)
decimation: asciilifeform: are the maps in question contained in your 'mempool zap patch'?
asciilifeform: decimation: they are the two maps which hold mempool state
asciilifeform: see the text of the patch.
decimation was seeing
asciilifeform: << we're not signing because it has 'upside' now. but 1) because unsigned code is 'written by no one' and hence is a work of the great satan by default implication 2) for the archaeologists 3) for the revolutionary tribunals
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:19:08; decimation: plus, his original theory was that others should read and sign. now this is good in theory, but in practice has no upside and all downside
decimation: my point is that it was made clear that anyone who signed something that fucked stuff up would suffer the negrating consequences
assbot: Logged on 14-07-2015 03:22:40; asciilifeform: a mistake that is owned up to, before it sinks any ships - can perhaps be accepted as a mistake, and forgiven
asciilifeform: i sign xxx. the readers are then free to rate me accordingly. this is how is works, by design.
asciilifeform: also the continuity of identity. if, for example, my patches at some point go from tiny to elephantine, from single-purpose to 'omnibus', from deadly-simple to 'wtf is that' - folks are to presume that i have been finally killed and key is in hands of hitler. and should then rate accordingly.
asciilifeform: this, incidentally, is an important reason why patches need to be deedboted
asciilifeform: (can automate this?)
asciilifeform: need hard ~dates~ as well as identity.
asciilifeform: and yes, all of this looks like pointless sweat to the folks who struggle with builds, checking sigs, missed linefeedz, etc
asciilifeform: guess what - war consists largely of precisely this kind of 'pointlessness'
asciilifeform: 'why do i have to move these sandbags?'
asciilifeform: 'why am i sleeping in a hole in the ground next to hole in the ground where i shat'
asciilifeform: 'why do i have to stand here and watch the hill'
decimation: part of the problem with the mailing list I see is that it's difficult to reconstruct the context of patches
asciilifeform: perhaps mircea_popescu will add to this illustration.
asciilifeform: decimation: the context is typically filled in, in pedantic detail, here.
decimation: you usually do a good job of this
ben_vulpes: oh don't mind me, i'm just grumpy about a frictive process
decimation: I can't think of an off-the-shelf tool that would do everything mentioned above though
asciilifeform: the tool that man can trust to replace his brains is not yet born
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu will likely run me through the "oh you're complaining here have some more of what irks you" chipper
decimation: asciilifeform: yes but you could take that argument to 'can't use computer withou seeing registers'
ben_vulpes: decimation: and he does, regularly
decimation: it all depends on what is a reasonable risk to accept
asciilifeform: once hygiene was invented - not using it was no longer 'reasonable'
trinque: git's binary db format is certainly *not* capable of being the canonical representation of the project
trinque: however, these are separate concerns
trinque: the ML is imo for releases, which should consist of bundles of signed patches
decimation: it would be nice to have a button to click: download the 'original tree' plus patches to get to this patch
trinque: dev is its own concern which might have other processes; you could say that a particular feature branch eventually gets flattened down into a release patch
decimation: for each patch
asciilifeform: trinque: i happen to think that throwing patches to ml, where they are all visible in chronological order, is a step forward from them living on my www
trinque: decimation: I was thinking this might be a web app
asciilifeform: and linked here
decimation: trinque: a web page with links to whatever deedbot spits would be sufficient
trinque: asciilifeform: yeah, but the patches are a tree, not a timeline
ben_vulpes: i am now imagining all sorts of dumb things like patches contributed in ml 'threads'
decimation: plus automatics to package tarball and patches
asciilifeform: you lot are reinventing 'version control' gadget
ben_vulpes: heck, it'd be a huge improvement if /patches.html rendered in chronological order
asciilifeform: ^
asciilifeform: agree
asciilifeform: (why aren't they?)
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell jurov pretty please
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: dunno, have asked twice now
decimation: yes, that's step one of 'we gotta invent version control too'
ben_vulpes would learn fossil
ben_vulpes: don't care, can operate anything made by humans
asciilifeform: i said before, will say again: if the labour of crunching the patches looms large, it is only because folks are not undergoing the greater torment of reading them
ben_vulpes: 'tis not the patches but the whole workflow
asciilifeform: what other than the patches ?
ben_vulpes: a forest, not any particular tree
decimation: asciilifeform: for one thing, you would need to see the patch in context
decimation: which you can't get unless you have the whole repo stepped forward to the state of ap articular patch
asciilifeform: the 'rotor' toolchain, for instance, tripped up some folks. but it needs to be built ~once per machine~
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: the antecedents thing for one
decimation: thus, you need the whole repo state per patch
decimation: I don't see any way around that
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i carefully summarized the antecedents to 'stator' for hanbot (see log)
decimation: yes, this is version control
ben_vulpes: now is when i admit that i've yet to successfully compile bitcoin with rotor
ben_vulpes: tendon-snipped by "use your noggin, eedjit" instructions
ben_vulpes: tripped, fell, yelling in fury
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: make use of the fact that i am yet alive! post errorz, logs
ben_vulpes: trinque: was there, saw, comiserated
ben_vulpes: no! for it is a merely a derpy directory structure issue that any sophomore can figure out
ben_vulpes: CLEARLY
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'm tuned in for what, 12-14 h/day? write in
trinque: rock climbing comes to mind
trinque: sometimes you get a shitty handhold, but you don't immediately shout "fuck this!" and let go of the wall
ben_vulpes: no, for another read through and another hack at "etc. as before" will resolve this.
trinque the fatty who hasn't exercised in 6mos... talking about rock climbing...
ben_vulpes: i'll save my "eedjit points" for when i actually cannot resolve things myself.
ben_vulpes: in the meantime, know that these few hours per day *i* do have might be put to better use than derping of dirs.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: don't hesitate to publicly gripe if i omitted a step in cookbook, etc
ben_vulpes: note that i haven't.
decimation: asciilifeform: mapTransactions appears to be a std::map to me
asciilifeform: hm
asciilifeform: decimation is right
decimation: maybe I can't distinguish between boost and stl
decimation: one of the annoyances of c++ is that it is strongly typed and yet devilishly hard to tell *what* type
asciilifeform: does have the behaviour described earlier, though
asciilifeform: aha
decimation: and there is no tool (as far as I know) that automates this task
asciilifeform: not in the land of sunshine & kittenz, at any rate
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: my patches are useless if folks can't build them and test
decimation: folks can, I've done anyway
ben_vulpes: << ahahahahahaha
assbot: Logged on 04-08-2015 04:03:19; asciilifeform: also ok to use live lusers
decimation: my stator with eatblocks is almost synced after a month of running
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes et al: if anyone wants to suggest how to make recipe more digestible, please write.
trinque: my only problem with rotor was that berkdb is a piece of shit, ignored env vars that every ball o' source should care about without its own magical flag
trinque: things like that though, that many pieces, sure it's going to snag on machines
ben_vulpes: << how long? my maxint_locks build appears to be chewing on this one, but i cannot actually tell.
assbot: Logged on 01-08-2015 04:37:34; BingoBoingo: was very slow to eat 51, but it did
trinque: what's needed imo is something which displays the history of *decisions* made, secondarily patches
ben_vulpes: aha trinque's decisionmachine emerges!
trinque: wahaha
trinque: that's what I as a newb trying to wade in wanted to know
trinque: what's the social structure here, what decisions did it fart out?
asciilifeform: what happened to n00bs reading logs for 6 mo ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: instructions rot, are dependent on fallible humans. i write scripts.
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah it matters what kind of pointers that mapTransactions is accepting
trinque: asciilifeform: I've read *far* more logs than that
decimation: asciilifeform: one annoyance about the logs: missing entries
asciilifeform: so trinque then knows the decisions
asciilifeform: decimation: this is also why i keep boxes going 24/7, logging
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: still need instructions, for when script explodes with no explanation
asciilifeform: there is, sadly, no possible substitute for actually grasping the mechanism
asciilifeform: if i knew of one - would say what it is, promise.
ben_vulpes: mine explode at the line that fails instead of airily carrying on as though nothing happened.
ben_vulpes: helps, somewhat.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: yes, and that ought to be in every release
asciilifeform: (i somehow forgot this feature even existed in sh)
decimation: the problem appears to be that mapTransactions consists of pointers to CTransactions objects
assbot: Satoshi ... ( )
decimation: calling clear() simply zeros the hashes but does not deallocate the objects
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: i explained this earlier
decimation: one would need to iterate through all of them and call delete
asciilifeform: except have to iterate cleverly
decimation: yes, it would be annoying
asciilifeform: because deleting destroys iterator
asciilifeform: (forgot this, and relearned the hard way, sat with gdb for a spell)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 131950 @ 0.00050986 = 67.276 BTC [-] {7}
asciilifeform bbl
decimation: I wonder if wrapping in auto_ptr would help
decimation: no, because it still doesn't leave scope
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes: yes, and that ought to be in every release << and this raises another question, shall mod6 and i now switch our build process to involve the rotor assemblage?
ben_vulpes: shall we demand that of the pete_dushenskis and hanbots who wish to run their own hand-compiled foundation releases?
ben_vulpes: i have no answers, only this hill to watch.
ben_vulpes to have a brow soothed on a sweet busom
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72253 @ 0.00052755 = 38.1171 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: <trinque> I watched a guy drink himself to death because you know, unix wasn't everything-is-a-table << What. People don't die of drink anymoar because it feels good man?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107475 @ 0.00053128 = 57.0993 BTC [+] {5}
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes: the patches 'stacked on one another' is an artifact of how diff works << Ugliest artifact. MIN_RELAY_TXFEE and MINTXFEE live in main.h and init.h when patched. very volatile line numbers
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> guess what - war consists largely of precisely this kind of 'pointlessness' << It always has, at least until armor became to weighty for civilized legionaries
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes: i carefully summarized the antecedents to 'stator' for hanbot (see log) << stator, rotor work to build a bitcoind on the "mint" ubuntu-like. Don't remember installing more dev tools after g++ for stator
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> ... << how long? my maxint_locks build appears to be chewing on this one, but i cannot actually tell. << I remember more than a minute, but only resorted to spring powered time after already waiting
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> what happened to n00bs reading logs for 6 mo ? << New challenges revert "seasoned" into n00b again
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> asciilifeform: instructions rot, are dependent on fallible humans. i write scripts. << And then shell changes
BingoBoingo: <decimation> the problem appears to be that mapTransactions consists of pointers to CTransactions objects << Far worse in PoundNation 0.9+ where classes
assbot: Satoshi ... ( )
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> shall we demand that of the pete_dushenskis and hanbots who wish to run their own hand-compiled foundation releases? << Honestly prolly. A recipe that provides ABI compatibility with 2.6.x Linux kernel is prolly fine. People can adapt to other environments.
BingoBoingo: deedbot-: << #ba-courts
assbot: dpaste: 10RVK2B ... ( )
deedbot-: Bad URL or network outage.
BingoBoingo: trinque ^
trinque: nothing's broken; there's other shit on the line
trinque: also html url
BingoBoingo: <BingoBoingo> deedbot-:
assbot: dpaste: 10RVK2B ... ( )
assbot: ... ( )
BingoBoingo: deedbot-:
assbot: ... ( )
deedbot-: accepted: 1
trinque: heh ding ding
BingoBoingo may be rather intoxicated
BingoBoingo: But, #b-a courts
trinque: ;;later tell felipelalli you've spoken about the idea of rating people not in the WoT; there's a great way ^
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: Got to get the condemnation in before feeding the lawyer fiat for next month's hearing
trinque: BingoBoingo: cool
BingoBoingo: Also if anyone with a bunch of power words (danielpbarron) can identify either on any relevant Bitcoin related WoT I would appreciate a heads up.
BingoBoingo: My misdemeanor case is on a one way path now. It is going to hearing seeking dismissal. If not dismissed then to trial seeking not-guilty adjudication. Then to civil court seeking damages for seriously hindering my employability.
BingoBoingo: I might not remember why in the morning I decided tonight would be the night to file this, but I left myself copious notes.
BingoBoingo used to believe St Cliar County authorities might read this chan, now pretty sure they don't, but figure there is a lack of better public records so their doom if they don't read.
BingoBoingo notes filings issued in venues other than a #b-a deedbot will from now and from twenty years in the past be treated as suggestions rather than orders.
punkman: << the broadcast overflows and gets clipped, have to view source
assbot: No Such lAbs (S.NSA), July 2015 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31200 @ 0.000532 = 16.5984 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: ;;kittenlasers
gribble: Error: "kittenlasers" is not a valid command.
BingoBoingo: Seems about as true as ever
assbot: Logged on 21-06-2014 14:11:51; moiety: are you near asciilifeform, punkman? he needs a kitten, he just hasn't fully realised it yet
BingoBoingo: !up knotwork
BingoBoingo: Parody, but should it be?
assbot: FDA Finally Approves The Ativan Diffuser for all Hospital Units | GomerBlog ... ( )
BingoBoingo: I mean if isn't parody
assbot: West Virginia Supreme Court Ruling Allows Physician Liability for Patient Addiction - Emergency Physicians Monthly ... ( )
punkman: BingoBoingo, seems like a good way to stop docs prescribing
BingoBoingo: !up diametric
BingoBoingo: !up diana_coman
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 142681 @ 0.00053065 = 75.7137 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: punkman: Well hopefully they stop prescribing for their old coots threatening their licenses first
BingoBoingo: Only industry to win is Afghan
BingoBoingo contemplates migrating to a completely suckless/cat-v desktop. Pros? Any cons?
BingoBoingo: Well, maybe not entirely. I may keep cwm over dwm
BingoBoingo: Also, how out of sync is the medical profession with the youth?
assbot: The Top Ways Palcohol Abuse Could Present to the Emergency Department - Emergency Physicians Monthly ... ( )
punkman: didn't USG ban that?
punkman: guess not
BingoBoingo: punkman: They tabled that motion so not banned.
BingoBoingo: Also alcohol bound in carbohydrates? Prolly going to be a fat sack to the shit jsut to get buzzed.
BingoBoingo: !up HeySteve
HeySteve: hi there
punkman: I remember some discussion about how much the thing would weight
BingoBoingo: hi HeySteve
BingoBoingo: punkman: Well consider a pint bottle of cheap vodka is 40% alcohol by volume, roughly the same by mass
BingoBoingo: And now it gets topped off with sugars that will help it clear stage 2 metabolism faster
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93500 @ 0.000532 = 49.742 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: Still to get a slight buzz one is talking at least an once or more of raw ETOH plus binders.
punkman: "Mark searched for powdered alcohol and it wasn't available. Over a few years, with the help of scientists around the world, Mark was able to create powdered alcohol.  So he began his quest to create it. After years of research, experimentation and consultation with scientists around the world, he finally came up with powdered alcohol and called it Palcohol."
punkman: of course it's the first best palchohol
BingoBoingo: For a 110 pound teenager to reach the poisoning level and hit the ER it would still take hald a poing of the stuff, plus binders.
punkman: even though patent dates to 1974
BingoBoingo: patents are probably all on the binders, probably all borrowed from Eli Lily
BingoBoingo: Or leased
BingoBoingo wonders if Byrne/Swanson et al ever wander here and see the hate I spew for far smaller problems and wonder... What if Bingo isn't just an MP sock puppet that emerges under the influence of coke?
shinohai: You got to stop giving the butters content there BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: What if there really are a lot of #b-a people and they really are strong with hate
BingoBoingo: shinohai: I might have the rare opportunity to interview for a fiat job. If I get it I want a part of this window to get cheap coins.
shinohai: Ah good luck on the job.
shinohai: I'd like to have easy to buy coins that don't require writing my autobiography to obtain.
BingoBoingo would have to relocate bu plans to get the beapest place that only requires two months rent on top of deposit
shinohai: What sort of job is it BingoBoingo, may i ask/
BingoBoingo: shinohai: Customer service at a regional univeristy. Nothing glamorous, but given how long as it has been since I was last fiat employable.
shinohai: Don't feel bad, I haven't worked at a fiat job in 6 years now.
punkman: shinohai: retired?
BingoBoingo: Shhh, i'm using that line.
shinohai: Disability pension from an accident. Doc declared me unfit for duty so I'm not complaining.
shinohai: In the real world I have to use Windows
BingoBoingo entered into deedbot that condemnation for more than just "there exists" a misdemeanor charge
shinohai: I need a good virtual job, that reddit shit that pays $5 in btc is pointless.
BingoBoingo: I just hope one day to become.
BingoBoingo: I've already had the FBI at my front door. I'd just like to become the sort of #b-a dragon who can embrace axe time
shinohai: You had the FBI? You got more rep than me. I only had FCC come to make me take down my super yagi.
shinohai: When you are unemployed and bored, naturally you want a wifi antenna capable of covering the whole neighborhood with internet.
BingoBoingo: Well it was one FBI agent and one Treasury agent. I still have the Treasury agent's card. FBI fucker never offered his.
assbot: A Law Enforcement Encounter: If you ran a Bitcoin related service before the thing hit $100 you prolly ought to be somewhat concerned and/or prepared | Bingo Blog ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 110000 @ 0.00052667 = 57.9337 BTC [-] {4}
BingoBoingo: It was hot, I didn't let them in so we had a pow wow on the front lawn until they quit.
shinohai: > "the FBI agent name dropped Coindesk as a thing he reads...."
shinohai: AT leas he admits he has a problem.
BingoBoingo: But this is exactly how to handle an encounter of the Federal kind. You sweat them away and you disclose it happened.
BingoBoingo: To be fair qntra didn't quite exist yet.
assbot: ... ( )
BingoBoingo: Rome didn't burn in a day
shinohai: Musta been a slow crime month, they were looking to invent something.
BingoBoingo: The exact service they asked me about was the late BTCPak operated by DBordello. All I knew was I used it and it worked.
shinohai: I used to do the same thing with some guy from bitcointalk, moneypaktrader
shinohai: I guess you are fortunate no electronic items were seized, etc.
punkman: girl's sister was at her parent's house for a night. parents were on vacation, so neighbor hears noise and calls the cops. cops show up banging on the door at 3am, she opens door and there were 3-4 submachineguns pointed at her.
punkman: I'd sue them
shinohai: Unfortunately, policing doesn't seem to be a service you can unsubscribe from.
shinohai: You just get hit with "early termination" fees. ;)
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> I used to do the same thing with some guy from bitcointalk, moneypaktrader << iirc he made it rahter clear he was shady. BTcPak had a .com site and everything I needed to believe in it at the time.
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> I guess you are fortunate no electronic items were seized, etc. << I'd already met alf here. For all they know everything has the thermite.
shinohai: Yeah it appears he got sloppy or just didn't care. I bought btc from him several times despite the war between him and TradeFortress.
BingoBoingo: TradeFortress appears in retrospect to have jsut been another parasitic chicom
shinohai: ^
BingoBoingo: But MPT made it way to clear in his adverts that he did "dark web stuff" to address him as a person. That would be like buying a gram of blow from the white boy dressed as a pimp.
shinohai: I never used though. The whole thing of not owning your keys seemed silly to me.
BingoBoingo: I spent time on his coinshat thing tying to tell n00bs to not be such n00bs. Fat lot of good it did.
shinohai: A fool and his money .....
BingoBoingo: Between pirateat40 and TradeFartress the latter probably ran the more dangerous long con, because people believed him. Not absolutely, but generally.
shinohai: He definitely had a way with people. There are peeps to this day that still defend him and inputs.
BingoBoingo: People really underestimate how long I can keep my hate fresh
shinohai: Same. I hold grudges for way too long.
BingoBoingo: I was trying to save precious n00bs on his site, and he fuck it. So I hate.
shinohai: n00bs generally go for the shiny and loud
shinohai: Things that require little effort, not realizing your security comes at a price.
shinohai: But no: "The app developer *assures us it is safe, so it must be*"
BingoBoingo: It was an inflection point. I mean back then Eulora was jsut a jizzlet in MP's balls
BingoBoingo: !up afreakk
BingoBoingo: 1up afreakk_Z_Z_
BingoBoingo: !up afreakk_Z_Z_
shinohai: I had such enthusiasm for Eulora, I may take a fresh look at it when I have good drugs.
BingoBoingo: It was around then though that I realized that no amount of 1 on 1 coaching directed at unknowns could have the same impact MP had when he declared Max Keiser was a doody head.
BingoBoingo: I jsut need to find a way to build it without Nvidia cg toolkit.
BingoBoingo: But first I gotta chop on my bitcoin first
BingoBoingo: And fuck it
BingoBoingo: Bed time
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 426459 @ 0.00053309 = 227.341 BTC [+] {8}
shinohai: gn m8
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9585 @ 0.0005338 = 5.1165 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67950 @ 0.00052422 = 35.6207 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: youtube apparently doesn't like songs titled "Cunt Make It Up"
assbot: Tarantula Deadly Cargo - Sleaford Mods - YouTube ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93750 @ 0.00052422 = 49.1456 BTC [-]
punkman: lol secret
assbot: Athens 1944: Britain’s dirty secret | World news | The Guardian ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 130050 @ 0.0005355 = 69.6418 BTC [+] {6}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 122250 @ 0.00053699 = 65.647 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88700 @ 0.0005288 = 46.9046 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8888 @ 0.00053995 = 4.7991 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80400 @ 0.00053211 = 42.7816 BTC [-] {4}
punkman: heh
assbot: Uber is worth five times Greece's banks - Aug. 4, 2015 ... ( )
jurov: kek
assbot: Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38600 @ 0.00051947 = 20.0515 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109200 @ 0.00051943 = 56.7218 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 336600 @ 0.00054208 = 182.4641 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 96550 @ 0.00054789 = 52.8988 BTC [+] {8}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 120750 @ 0.00055026 = 66.4439 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: !up v_smith
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform shouldn't, in browser that respect "font size=small".
mircea_popescu: doesn't, in mine, in any case.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22000 @ 0.00055026 = 12.1057 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: << i can see this as pretty legitimate.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:10:05; BingoBoingo: Most intimidating part of current realbitcoin is where the fuck do I submit a diff from?
mircea_popescu: << in fact few are going to actually test anything even when it is easy to do so.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:12:14; ben_vulpes: from experience i know that the more difficult it is to test the software, the less likely anyone is to actually do so.
mircea_popescu: in short we gotta restructure this pancake castle less it falls over.
mircea_popescu: << instead of imagining the arguments you two'd better quote them. THAT much of a process we do have, and it's both explicitly stated and in daily implicit visible use.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:14:15; ben_vulpes: i can just imagine the arguments
mircea_popescu: < this is uniquely impractical because a) an actually stared definition of laziness that fails to include most everyone otherwise occupied has yet to be seen and b) you'd better not dare create a system that insults the powerful.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:14:49; trinque: the barrier can be "the devs are fucking vitriolic towards laziness"
mircea_popescu: shit on the powerless, that's what they're there fo.
mircea_popescu: << iirc that was gitHUB
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:19:01; ben_vulpes: all i ever heard was "git=invitation for tard collaborators"
mircea_popescu: << this proposition is false. similarly, going to the market has "all downside and no upside" for goers : they know for a fact they'll spend money. and who knows if the stuff they get will be any good, won't spoil en route, won't get stolen before they get home or for that matter won't sprout heads and tentacles and eat them. so let's "safely" aka stupidly round th
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:19:08; decimation: plus, his original theory was that others should read and sign. now this is good in theory, but in practice has no upside and all downside
mircea_popescu: e first to 1 and the 2nd to 0, and then go 1 = 0 har har.
mircea_popescu: not how it works. it has A LOT of upside and virtually no downside. what ELSE are you going to do with that "money" if you don't go to the market ? and what ELSE are you going to do with that certain time and alleged expertise if not sign this stuff ?
mircea_popescu: there is NOTHING else. anything where you spend your time for any other purpose is either a) masturbation, ie, the xtian "building castles on sand". whether you spend time with your kid or groom your beard or fuck the woman, it's all sensata. or else b) uranium mines.
mircea_popescu: the only kingdom of heaven accessible to earthlinks is fucking reading and signing patches. don't want it, fine, but don't get fucking existential on me on your deathbed about how you wasted your life. yes, you have. shoulda not have.
shinohai: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 282.95, Best ask: 282.98, Bid-ask spread: 0.03000, Last trade: 282.95, 24 hour volume: 8721.96406275, 24 hour low: 281.49, 24 hour high: 285.94, 24 hour vwap: None
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93999 @ 0.00051937 = 48.8203 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 73400 @ 0.00051937 = 38.1218 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69100 @ 0.00052279 = 36.1248 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43811 @ 0.00051885 = 22.7313 BTC [-] {5}
mircea_popescu: << honestly thinking about it i dun see any way to avoid involving deeds in here.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:43:53; asciilifeform: need hard ~dates~ as well as identity.
mircea_popescu: i suspect we might be belabouring under the burdens imposed by a design problem which ultimately stems from conceptual confusion.
mircea_popescu: there are very specifically TWO things we want to do here, and they are not miscible.
mircea_popescu: one is USE. specifically - hanbot must be able to put into work the theoretical advances b-a produces. and ima use her as a stand-in for "intelligent and willing to work, but not able to grow a beard".
mircea_popescu: the other is MANAGE. specifically - hanbot must also be able to evaluate the theoretical advances in question.
mircea_popescu: i am perfectly aware that a fine answer to both these is "just grow a beard", which is to say, "know", knight style, just "what is going on" so that you can reboot the machine into a working state. and "know", mp style, just whop the moles are.
mircea_popescu: this is not practicable, if for no other reason then because the very earth will end up growing a beard and that'll be bad for the climate.
mircea_popescu: but in point of fact, approaching the matter conversely, a straight github repository would be just fine from the M perspective if it were doubled by duly deedbotted hashes of the plaintext. and on the other hand, irrespectively how inscrutable -r content would be just fine from a U perspective, just as long as someone can somehow convert it into a plaintext they can sit down with, follow, and never be surprised.
mircea_popescu: and returning to the issue, the good quality recipes are exactly equivalent to the "wot of patches" management technique : they allow people to ride on the shoulders of giants ~of their own choice~.
mircea_popescu: this "choose your own giant" system is definitely powerful enough to take over the world, but we still gotta figure out a way to allow such seating.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34600 @ 0.00052304 = 18.0972 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: and both sides gotta be done at the same time.
mircea_popescu: this is ultimately why foss failed. yes, it did (sort of, but originally much better than currently) allow the U seating part.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, because it failed to even conceptualize the M part, let alone address it, it remained open to attack which the us first probed (with its corporate tentacles, ms etc) and then crushed, with its agency teeth.
mircea_popescu: the reason this was possible is fortunately very easy to fix, once we understood what the hole was.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, a purely M wot will eventually fail, no matter how effectual or powerful it is (and it is, ftr, factually) on the financial side
mircea_popescu: which is why they're probing the U side atm.
asciilifeform: wai wat
mircea_popescu: from which leaf ?
asciilifeform: last
mircea_popescu: what do you think all this "software for the people" kick is ?
mircea_popescu: actual, bona fide love of the multitudes ?
asciilifeform: ah, that
mircea_popescu: stalin despised the peasant, and the usg despises the scum we despise, equally if not moreso.
mircea_popescu: but just as the saying goes, past performance is no guarantee of future success. that we readily crushed the "omai, bigger blocks" initiative, like all "initiatives" to date does not offer any guarantee we'll manage next time.
mircea_popescu: the stator saving of the continuity feeling was too narrow for my liking.
asciilifeform: what can i say, go get more of me somewhere
mircea_popescu: mno. this is a tooling problem.
mircea_popescu: when you have a phd assembly line, the problem is not "insufficient phds"
asciilifeform: i just don't see it, really
mircea_popescu: which part ?
asciilifeform: plenty of folks who aren't the least 'phd' have built, and are running, the thing
asciilifeform: with griping, sweating, q&a, yes - but running.
mircea_popescu: how is this an argument and what does it argue for ?
asciilifeform: that the existing process is precisely correct
mircea_popescu: correctness is not in dispute.
mircea_popescu: correct it clearly is.
mircea_popescu: it's not effectual and won't scale is the dispute.
asciilifeform: what precisely means 'scale' ?
asciilifeform: in this context
mircea_popescu: hanbot must be able to put into work the theoretical advances b-a produces <
asciilifeform: iirc she did
mircea_popescu: and hanbot must also be able to evaluate the theoretical advances in question., inseparable.
mircea_popescu: she eventually got a stator up ?
mircea_popescu: where do i ping it
asciilifeform searches log
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell hanbot so is the node up ? where ? is there a recipe-from-own-eyes somewhere ? where ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: << apparently not
assbot: Logged on 31-07-2015 21:50:52; hanbot: ascii_field hanbot, what are the remaining issues? << sez: (no patches) meanwhile mod6 has made progress on RI on ubuntu so still working on "manual" stator build.
mircea_popescu: "still working" is not "she did"
mircea_popescu: in fact, "still working" a week later is its own precious sort of failure, srsly.
mircea_popescu: there's no reason for this to take a week to do.
asciilifeform: i did offer to help. what do i have to do, get on a plane with chalkboard in bag ?
mircea_popescu: no.
mircea_popescu: why do you think it's about you anyway ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes sorta implied this
mircea_popescu: what does he know.
asciilifeform: but would like to think that it isn't, aha
mircea_popescu: anyway. the idea here is specifically that we want you to be in a position where the plane and chalkboard perspective doesn't loom.
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform would like this very much
mircea_popescu: right.
chetty: go to meeting?
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: (in unrelated newz, dulap is getting blackholed again)
mircea_popescu: so basically, help me out here. this should be a website which maintains a code tree and a signature tree ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc ben_vulpes has one
mircea_popescu: can we just design the thing, if for no other reason then for the exercise, and then see what already exists and if we like it ?
asciilifeform: i never objected to folks using 'git', 'mercurial', etc. - only to the notion that anything that can't come out of a printer and then ocr'd back in could be the canonical representation of the path from pedigreed 0.5.3 to us
mircea_popescu: ok, gefuxexperiment. suppose you get hit in the head, and go into a coma.
mircea_popescu: suppose you come back in 2025. suppose we've been living and thriving though this time.
mircea_popescu: you go to the ML, and lo, there's 1`677`321 messages in there.
mircea_popescu: how do you proceed ?
asciilifeform: i'd read them.
mircea_popescu: suppose you can't read at the pace new ones get added.
asciilifeform: sorta doing this with the linux kernel, actually
mircea_popescu: there's 75`000 contributors in 2025 alone.
asciilifeform: aaaaand this is when i decide that the thing has brain cancer.
asciilifeform: like linux !
mircea_popescu: why ?
asciilifeform: it is ~The~ test.
asciilifeform: software is not that intrinsically complicated.
mircea_popescu: looky here : i am a magical witch doctor that can spot where cancer starts.
mircea_popescu: care to hear where it started ?
asciilifeform: nothing needs 1`677`321 changes to go to zero kelvin !!
asciilifeform: aha?
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> i never objected to folks using 'git', 'mercurial', etc. - only to the notion that <
asciilifeform: and i say that no work of man needs 1`677`321 changes.
asciilifeform: or 677`321 for that matter.
mircea_popescu: depends how it's designed.
asciilifeform: in fact 7`321 is pushing it
mircea_popescu: reproduction is the work of man, and reproduction has TO DATE taken over 2 million strokes. today.
mircea_popescu: will take more.
asciilifeform: nah it's the work of 'aunt dumb'
mircea_popescu: if you design your thing like reproduction works, do not be surprised.
mircea_popescu: narciflattering but untrue.
mircea_popescu: anyway, to get back to it : in ordere to ever reach 0 kelvin, you must use at least some elements that provably reduce temperature.
asciilifeform: this'd be the snip-snips.
mircea_popescu: ideally.
mircea_popescu: they need to be supported, is what im telling you.
mircea_popescu: atm we're veering dangerously close to the old -dev process, where they just shat magic stones.
asciilifeform: so let's have idea ?
mircea_popescu: let's have idea!
asciilifeform: does mircea_popescu presently have ?
mircea_popescu: how would this b-a versioning system work ?
mircea_popescu: i do not, no.
mircea_popescu: i don't even fully understand wtf hole we're filing. tho i think i understand a lot better right now than 3 hours ago.
asciilifeform: i will add that a while ago i pictured myself in the predicament of folks trying to assemble the thing. which is why i included an unofficial flattened source with 'stator'
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: no, if you look at the history with open eyes it's quite clear we had this problem on back for a while now.
mircea_popescu: i swear this is a problem that's structural and should be solved, rather than just pushed against.
jurov: structural? ohmy mircea's going to ban something :D
mircea_popescu: lolwut
asciilifeform: it is a problem. but i must point out that most of the troubles folks have spoken of so far do not stem from it. e.g., trinque et al with their misbehaving systems.
jurov: but srs, i have asked for patches context, was sent to go scour the log for it
punkman: context?
asciilifeform: jurov: link?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i bet you dollars to anything that the reason you don't get deluged in that is simply that moist folks are too interdicted by the task to even attempt, soi we don't hear about 99% of compat issues
mircea_popescu: jurov so you have.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: entirely possible
asciilifeform: << example of one of my patches listing antecedents
assbot: [BTC-dev] (EXPERIMENTAL) Full DNS Thermonuke! ... ( )
assbot: Logged on 26-06-2015 21:23:15; jurov: ok ascii_field not turd , but this leaves things to be desired, too:
mircea_popescu: and the last we heard of davout he was told exactly the same, and for all i know he's fallen in there never to be heard from again
asciilifeform: << seems like he is there
assbot: Logged on 01-08-2015 18:51:53; davout: second kid arrived, private pilot license in progress 70% pretty much sums it up :-)
mircea_popescu: lemme state apropos of nothing that if you blame people for process not only are you an incredibly bad manager, but your organisation will fail, and in so doing give everyone a sigh of relief.
asciilifeform: won't blame people, but will say that the state of the ecosystem (i.e. what folks are building on) is in such a sad state that the only plausible solution is os standardization
mircea_popescu: question : what if we ran this to look more like a wiki than a mailing list ?
asciilifeform: something i've been loathe to suggest because guess to whom the chore will fall
mircea_popescu: ie, all things we do have a "current page"
mircea_popescu: which lists everything
asciilifeform: that'd be very spiffy
mircea_popescu: changes, in the history tree - all signed.
asciilifeform: esp. if it can be limited to the wot set
mircea_popescu: can't see why not.
mircea_popescu: and that page can get sub-pages
asciilifeform: well, one reason why possibly not is that i suspect that the ml is as quiet as it is because signing things is arduous
mircea_popescu: for testing, for corner cases, for whatever the shit.
punkman just realizes he forgot to post working debug_sanity revision
mircea_popescu: jurov what do you think about switching to mediawiki ?
punkman: poor jurov :/
mircea_popescu: not the doing. the notion.
asciilifeform: wiki is a neat idea, but someone will have to invent signed-edits-wiki
mircea_popescu: last i heard it was os php
punkman: dokuwiki is a better candidate
mircea_popescu: is it ?
punkman: much smaller
mircea_popescu knows nothing about these.
punkman: kako uses it on bitcoin-assets wiki as well
mircea_popescu: aha
jurov: i use dokuwiki for some stuff, too. and it can be authed only once per seesion like assbot
asciilifeform: auth is easy, but how about verify ?
mircea_popescu: in practice, it'd prolly be more practical to transition deedbot and its site to this job i think
mircea_popescu: than the ml
asciilifeform: as in, can i download whole thing and attribute every delta to a wot person ?
jurov: i see it as minor change. majur obstacle is how to sanely track stuff who released, who signed
jurov: mere switch to wiki won't solve it
mircea_popescu: jurov what if the only way to add an edit is "deedbot pastebin/soandso" ?
punkman: with some metadata in diff files, we could have a script that creates a branched git repo entirely out of signed patch files
mircea_popescu: ^
mircea_popescu: this is where im headed. have the syntax as a burden ON THE WRITER
mircea_popescu: not on the fucken reader. prolly 2/3 of our problem as is
mircea_popescu: so : you wanna contribute, use this and that markup, then rest is done by itself.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i once thought about placing antecedent hashes in patch headers
mircea_popescu: (reason is that stuff's written once, read many times)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's what i want to accomplish, as a goal : i want to be able to put up a linux system, then go curl | gpg -verify > and then run that, which auto-follows the changes of people i have selected for this task, builds them and runs them
assbot: Page not found on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: and the only time i hear of any peep from the entire shebang is when one of them has gone over and i need to come in here and start with the !rate -10
mircea_popescu: and i know this can be done because it's how fucking viruses work.
asciilifeform: the only way to guarantee that the selected set of authors adds up to a single nonconflicting merge is to only build official releases (that is, tree signed by mod6 & ben_vulpes)
mircea_popescu: sure.
asciilifeform: again with the meat models. in point of fact most viruses ~don't work~
mircea_popescu: gimme the mechanics, lemme worry about the people.
mircea_popescu: of course in point of fact most viruses don't work.
mircea_popescu: yet most people to date have been killed by viruses.
mircea_popescu: gimme the mechanics!
asciilifeform: as i understand, any mechanized thing really depends on patches stating their antecedents
jurov: is adding "applies-to" a problem?
asciilifeform: thinking of a modified unix-patch util that stuffs sha512 into comment preceding each file diff
asciilifeform: from patches like these, one could conceivably auto-build a dependency graph
mircea_popescu: jurov i dun see why it would be
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually a hashed diff / patch-util is a must irrerspective of anything else.
asciilifeform: i'm about to post an example
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how come it doesn't exist. must be a switch
jurov: i get it
jurov: though, with this in-band signalling we will limit ourselves to patch format
mircea_popescu: as opposed to what ?
jurov: there may be ned to publish other signed artifacts
mircea_popescu likes, perhaps irrationally, the patch format
jurov: like chicken.tar.gz was
mircea_popescu: i didn't care for that.
asciilifeform: << original
assbot: dpaste: 0MWBGJ1 ... ( )
asciilifeform: << augmented
assbot: dpaste: 04XFDSF ... ( )
mircea_popescu: in fact, if you ask diana_coman, she recently delivered a bot for eulora client, and i had her make me diffs.
asciilifeform: jurov: 'chicken' was a dire, necessary evil
mircea_popescu: i dunno how you folks understand code otherwise, might be that i'm rusty or inept, but anyway.
asciilifeform: because the alternative was a multi-megabyte pile of minus signs
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not even sure the pile was worse.
jurov: diana_coman: you actually tried to apply the diffs?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12165 @ 0.00052304 = 6.3628 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: ~I~ applied the diffs.
mircea_popescu: with her there holding my hand
mircea_popescu: took an hour.
mircea_popescu: and yes, i applied, by hand, compiled, etc.
jurov: yes. far cry from just running some .sh
diana_coman: yes jurov, I did verify it, applied it etc
mircea_popescu: jurov sure.
asciilifeform: see the dpastes
asciilifeform: imho this would correct a fundamental flaw in the whole diff thing
diana_coman: it took me half an hour only, but yeah, I did not have to re-read the code or anything
asciilifeform: in that, having a bag of patches in hand, you could magically coalesce them into a dependency graph
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how do they handle the "armored"/asciifucks issue ?
jurov: by running gpg --decrypt on clearsigned text
asciilifeform: afaik this was never an issue with patches (they were attached as binaries)
jurov: no other way
asciilifeform: and detach-signed
asciilifeform: same as a tarball would be
asciilifeform: it was an issue with message text on ml
asciilifeform: hence the 'never, ever include a patch in message text' thing.
mircea_popescu: kk
jurov: i like it. to be able to remove files without dumping whole contents, patch should be patched, too
asciilifeform: i will add, if it isn't obvious, that patches like the one i suggested will apply on a standard unix patch util
mircea_popescu: ^
asciilifeform: jurov: it was not a thing before, because there was no way to guarantee that the contents are what the patch author thought they were
asciilifeform: but now - can.
asciilifeform: and thereby can safely snip a file after stating its checksum
asciilifeform: but now both sides of the patch (author and applier) will need the custom util.
mircea_popescu: this all makes me feel a lot better about my life expectancy.
asciilifeform: now, the above is not a magic pill! somebody will still need to write the graph traverser
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: but it is a necessary start.
mircea_popescu: and the documentation.
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: also i'd like to keep this conversation open, for all the folks whose time is not day atm yet.
asciilifeform: curious what ben_vulpes, for instance, might add
asciilifeform: incidentally it is not necessary to alter the unix patch util. the checksums can be added by a proggy which eats standard patch file and the 'before' tree, and shits - this
asciilifeform: prolly 3 lines of perl
shinohai: My node isn't connected to anyone again today *sigh*
mircea_popescu: !rate diana_coman 4 Work on Eulora client, various tidbits over the years. Freelance statistician/coder.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
asciilifeform: shinohai: blackholed ?
asciilifeform: i.e.,
asciilifeform: accepted connection
asciilifeform: accepted connection
asciilifeform: socket no message in first 60 seconds, 1 0
asciilifeform: disconnecting node
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.diana_coman.4:f03c096e55ea00704ee7e685df39127f5c24a5bfc36808528b00217764e046d2
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for diana_coman from 2 to 4 with note: Work on Eulora client, various tidbits over the years. Freelance statistician/coder.
asciilifeform: shinohai: this is a persistent problem, and i have every reason to expect that it will get worse.
shinohai: T_T
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and mod6 and mebbe we have trinque do the graph
shinohai: Also getting 11db cannot allocate memory errors
mircea_popescu: shinohai please run this : cat debug.log | grep -c "no message in first 60" and report result
asciilifeform marvelling that no one, apparently, ever noticed the glaring omission in 'patch'
shinohai: kk 1 sec
shinohai: returns 0 xD
mircea_popescu: then it's not that. prolly gotta pursue the memory issue.
shinohai: Watching tail though I see exactly what asciilifeform describes
mircea_popescu: ... what gives ?
shinohai: Where it attempts to connect but disconnects (no message in first 60 sec)
mircea_popescu: then why is grep returning 0. one or the other neh ?
shinohai: Could be I just started this one, the one I am already running returns 28670932
mircea_popescu: o.O
mircea_popescu: advertised ip ?
shinohai: The one I just started has advertised ip
mircea_popescu: but the other one no ?
mircea_popescu: well... the network is pretty noisy.
shinohai: nope
shinohai: I can see 8333 from tho
asciilifeform bbl
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70143 @ 0.00054298 = 38.0862 BTC [+] {4}
trinque: mircea_popescu | asciilifeform and mod6 and mebbe we have trinque do the graph << I'm in; seems like yet another static site generator job
mircea_popescu: mostly, yes.
trinque: and I can modify deedbot- however it helps; he already statically generates his site, perhaps he could interpret metadata in certain deeds and take action
mircea_popescu: the biggest headache to date for jurov/users of ml seems to have been the mailing itself. i wonder how much sense simply deedbotting messages would make.
mircea_popescu: this readily enforces the two restraings we want enforced, which is : a) wot restricted and b) signed permanently.
shinohai: asciilifeform, mircea_popescu: this is what I get
assbot: dpaste: 1889469 ... ( )
mircea_popescu: shinohai this is "normal"
mircea_popescu: in the sense of retarded but commonly seen
jurov: mircea_popescu: deedbot has currently even less friendly archives than mailman
shinohai: But not connecting to anyone at all isn't
mircea_popescu: hm.
mircea_popescu: jurov i wasn't proposing they be used as is.
jurov: email was chosed because it allows for structured text + attachments. not sure how to do it with deedbot
trinque: to date I've tried to keep it simple, hence the deeds are plain textfiles linked to by a single index
trinque: no reason I can't add some html nav around that a la dpaste
mircea_popescu: bears more thinking
jurov: yes the signed email + extra signed attachs is a kludge
jurov: there must be better system to put together few files + text that already has crypto or can be extended easily
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49485 @ 0.00053671 = 26.5591 BTC [-]
trinque: the way git handles this is that "everything's a Blob" then "some Blobs are a Tree which points to n Blobs which may be Trees or Blobs"
trinque: you could implement the data structures needed for VCS atop deedbot in a similar manner
trinque: one thing that would be needed on my end is a saner URL for a given deed; it needs to just be the hash
trinque: easily done
jurov: how would it look for user? got a .txt, a .patch , now what?
trinque: so, git does it this way: there are Blobs, which are a k/v pair of which the k is the hash of the v; blobs can be one of: Reference, Commit, Tree, Blob
jurov: (currently on has to clearsign the .txt, make detached armored sig for .patch and use non-braindamaged email client to put them together)
jurov: i am not a git
jurov: :D
trinque: I probably missed one, and they also divide into further classifications, ref for example can be a tag, branch, stash
trinque: hehe
mircea_popescu: jurov word. there must be.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 125000 @ 0.00053491 = 66.8638 BTC [-] {3}
trinque: so if you say did the structured data in the "blobs" as sexps you could sign that text easily
trinque: and then maybe deedbot farts out additional nav controls on the html versions of these interesting deeds with a particular sexp in them
trinque: anyhow one thought.
punkman: drowning in rube goldberg?
trinque: implementing a VCS isn't rocket science; it's just a matter of getting the abstractions right
punkman: I don't want another VCS system. I just need a way to import patches in my existing VCS.
trinque: sure, and that's another thought
trinque: wrap git or mercurial or something in hooks which enforce the constraints desired
trinque: the requirement that signed and deeded patches be the primary representation of a contribution great appeal though, for obvious reasons
Adlai mumbles something about darcs
trinque: Adlai: it does that?
trinque: I mean they all can, but well?
Adlai: ootb, signed patches. deeding signed patches from darcs is less work than doing so from git etc
trinque: sounds worth investigating
trinque wanders off for coffee
assbot: China to Set Up ‘Security Offices’ Inside Internet Companies - Bloomberg Business ... ( )
punkman: I imagine they already have people in those companies, why make it official?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47950 @ 0.00054691 = 26.2243 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43400 @ 0.00054189 = 23.518 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: <Adlai> ootb, signed patches. deeding signed patches from darcs is less work than doing so from git etc << how so? i've never touched darcs, the question comes from ignorance.
Adlai: git signs blobs, darcs signs patches
ben_vulpes: git produces patches tho--
ben_vulpes: oh
ben_vulpes: interdasting
ben_vulpes is not terrifically familiar with the git gpg integration
ben_vulpes: << i know, apologies all around
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 12:35:39; mircea_popescu: << instead of imagining the arguments you two'd better quote them. THAT much of a process we do have, and it's both explicitly stated and in daily implicit visible use.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109700 @ 0.00052804 = 57.926 BTC [-] {5}
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: my coracle's been wedged at 367850 since last night, even with the new db locks config. last 500 lines of debug.log: , please let me know if more would be useful
assbot: ... ( )
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: << this is what i refer to as 'blackholed'
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 15:04:31; shinohai: But not connecting to anyone at all isn't
ascii_field: << how do i embed ~unmutilatable~ binaries in deedbot? uuencode ?!!!
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 15:03:16; mircea_popescu: the biggest headache to date for jurov/users of ml seems to have been the mailing itself. i wonder how much sense simply deedbotting messages would make.
ascii_field: if someone was wondering how the system could ever be made ~less~ n00b-friendly - this'd be it..
ascii_field: << can do this now!
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 15:24:59; punkman: I don't want another VCS system. I just need a way to import patches in my existing VCS.
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski You should see it when the DDoS abates
gribble: The operation succeeded.
punkman: ascii_field, I'm doing it
punkman: but I'm guessing as to patch order, branches, etc
assbot: For His Next Trick, Barefoot Genius Aims to End Broker Rip-Offs - Bloomberg Business ... ( )
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: the debug.log fragment you pasted does not reveal the cause of your jam
ben_vulpes: i was hoping you'd contradict my own conclusions, but alas.
danielpbarron: 500 lines isn't enough
ben_vulpes: let me restart the thing and grab the whole bootup log for inspection
BingoBoingo: << lol
assbot: [bitcoin-dev] "A Transaction Fee Market Exists Without a BlockSize Limit"--new research paper suggests ... ( )
danielpbarron: BingoBoingo, I don't recognize those names you mentioned earlier
BingoBoingo: It's for the best
BingoBoingo: non-people
ascii_field: philippinos, snore.
punkman: a question that future patch submitters might have: should I patch against last release or most active branch?
ascii_field: punkman: depends on who you think is 'longest chain'
ascii_field: if wrong about this, will have to merge by hand, and there is no going around this
jurov: if a big problem, you can always rebase and rerelease
ben_vulpes: what was the rollover patch called?
punkman: rollover?
punkman: this won't truncate your debug.log unless you tell it to
assbot: [BTC-dev] fixed debug_sanity ... ( )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform
assbot: ... ( )
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: .txt plz
ascii_field: (or www browser barfs)
ben_vulpes: haw
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 94900 @ 0.00054409 = 51.6341 BTC [+] {3}
ben_vulpes: Bitcoin version 0.5.4-beta
ben_vulpes: Default data directory /home/ec2-user/.bitcoin
ben_vulpes: Loading addresses...
ben_vulpes: strLogDir=/home/ec2-user/.bitcoin/database strErrorFile=/home/ec2-user/.bitcoin/db.log
ben_vulpes: Loaded 39823 addresses
ben_vulpes: addresses 26456ms
ben_vulpes: Loading block index...
ben_vulpes: LoadBlockIndex(): hashBestChain=00000000000000000dfc height=367850
ben_vulpes: block index 63562ms
ben_vulpes: Loading wallet...
ben_vulpes: nFileVersion = 50400
ben_vulpes: fGenerateBitcoins = 0
ben_vulpes: nTransactionFee = 0
ben_vulpes: fMinimizeToTray = 0
punkman: why do you have 40k addresses?
ben_vulpes: fMinimizeOnClose = 0
ben_vulpes: fUseProxy = 0
ben_vulpes: addrProxy =
danielpbarron: << i like the deedbot idea; that is submit patches as deeds. The mailing list has stuff i need to decrypt/verify anyway, and I'm not a big fan of email in general
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 14:45:46; mircea_popescu: also i'd like to keep this conversation open, for all the folks whose time is not day atm yet.
ben_vulpes: meep. sorry.
danielpbarron: I also like the idea of a webpage (maybe a wiki) that organizes it all, linking to the deeded content of course
ben_vulpes: punkman: hell if i know
punkman: a standalone Ada wallet would be an interesting project
ascii_field: punkman: perhaps if you ask mircea_popescu nicely, he'll give you a copy
punkman: I grabbed a random Ada book last week, it was awful. need to look again
gernika: punkman - I have the Ada 95 reference manual. Seems thorough. Also you can print out a copy of the GNAT User's Guide at Kinkos - which I've also done. Haven't actually made any progress in reading it but... Seems good by looking at TOC.
mod6: ;;later tell hanbot ping me when you get a chance plz. thx!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66900 @ 0.00054662 = 36.5689 BTC [+]
punkman: gernika, my beard being short, I'm looking for something closer to "Ada for dummies"
punkman: I'm also tempted to go with Ada 2005 so I can have all teh unicodez
ascii_field: 'Ada for software engineers', M. Ben-Ari.
ben_vulpes: ascii_field: has warez?
ascii_field: 'Data structures with Ada.', Michael B. Feldman.
ascii_field: 'Ada for programmers.', Eric W. Olsen.
ascii_field: 'Ada 95: The Lovelace Tutorial.' David A. Wheeler << probably the most n00bish
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: nope, i haven't digitized copies of these. but doesn't hurt to look around
ascii_field: anyone seriously into the subject will also want the 'standard' and 'rationale' documents.
punkman: 'Ada for software engineers'
assbot: ... ( )
ascii_field: neato
ascii_field: actually, the best book i have so far is in ru
ascii_field: written by, of all people, fella claiming to be former lead programmer of ukraine central bank...
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_field
punkman: "Like any contract, the Ada Referebce Manual is written in very precise language, and the term ‘language lawyer’ is often used for people who are experts at interpreting the document."
ascii_field: it has chapter, verse, line numbers
ascii_field: like talmud.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41613 @ 0.00053474 = 22.2521 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83950 @ 0.00054068 = 45.3901 BTC [+]
mod6: so I've looked at
mod6: and I like the site, and the bitchin motif
mod6: i also like how it lines up the signatures to a specific hash horizontally
shinohai: rules
mod6: however
mod6: if our idea is to clearsign patches and then submit them to deedbot, i urge you all to review this email and consider why that doesn't work:
assbot: [BTC-dev] Rotor! ... ( )
mod6: now, it might be that I'm not exactly understanding what the proceedure for submitting to deed bot would be. but if clearsigned .patch files, that can not work.
trinque: mod6: heh I did the site with a nod to the foundation's
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
trinque: mod6: as for how deedbot- might be used, not clearly defined yet
mod6: trinque: i think it's awesome :]
ascii_field: clearsigning MUTILATES
trinque: just one spitball of many
mod6: ^
mod6: ascii_field has it
trinque: does it have to be clear?
ascii_field: for deedbot!
trinque: I could change the thing
mod6: will deedbot take 2 parameters, a non-signed .patch file and a detached signature and somehow colese them?
ascii_field: who thought this was a good idea, and why
trinque: thought gpg could wad a sig and a file together in other ways than clearsign
ascii_field: even worse, imho, in every respect, than ml
punkman: you can also --armor --sign instead of clearsign
mod6: ascii_field: im simply referring to the converstaion from this morning
ascii_field: deedbot as adjunct to ml - works
trinque: I gotta depart to a meeting, but to summarize I have no strong opinion that deedbot is the solution
ascii_field: but as replacement?!
trinque: was merely saying I am willing to put in the work *should* deedbot- be some part of it
ben_vulpes: we're just exploring the possibility space here
ben_vulpes: !up n6
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 108450 @ 0.00053321 = 57.8266 BTC [-] {3}
danielpbarron: can't you unmutilate by using gpg --decrypt ?
mod6: i've been thinking alot about the ML issues that have been brought up lately. and lastnight I bascially came up with: Mailing list A: for all submissions testing or experimental or otherwise.. Mailing list B: for accepted, signed and released patches, in order. And jurov's /patch.html (or w/e its called) should draw from there.
trinque: danielpbarron: punkman has it; --armor --sign
mod6: danielpbarron: we're not talking about encryed docs
trinque: and then yeah decrypt on the other end
trinque: danielpbarron: yeah but you can do a sig in similar fashion
trinque: where it's a wad o... what, base64?
trinque: I don't remember
trinque: er last was for mod6
trinque departs!
n6: thanks ben_vulpes, can anyone help me make a call file for ? never made one and keep coming up with errors.
assbot: Logged on 15-07-2015 19:25:10; solrodar: << instructions at top
punkman: yeah it's a base64 blob that includes file and signature when you --sign --armor
danielpbarron: what about this: gzip the patch and clearsign that
jurov gasps
mod6: see, we could uu encode stuff or gzip stuff or do any number of things, but then it's far less readable "as-is"
ben_vulpes: n6: all of my noodling on the topic resides at
assbot: Index of /bitcoin/callgraph/ ... ( )
mod6: and i thought that was kinda one of the requirements.
mod6: "easy to read"
ben_vulpes: mod6: not that my browser will do anything with the patch files but download them.
mod6: that's fine, but what if I just wanna look through the submitted patches in deedbot? i now have to do a bunch of extra gyrations to even see the text
ben_vulpes: there's always /patches.html...
punkman: I just mentioned it as an easy way to make deeds out of patches
danielpbarron: deedbot isn't where you go to read it all; it's where you go to verify it all
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> there's always /patches.html... << sure if it's readable.
mod6: what about for unsigned new submissions?
punkman: (or deeds out of binaries)
mod6: and there are 75`000 people and 50 submissions per day?
mod6: could be scripted i suppose... but just sayin
punkman: wat
mod6: punkman: taking it back to the earlier premise.
mod6: are you guys following what I'm saying?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53705 @ 0.00054068 = 29.0372 BTC [+]
mod6: maybe not. lol.
n6: ben_vulpes: still having an issue getting "bitcoin/src/serialize.h:963:10: error: class member cannot be redeclared" even with your, what am I missing?
punkman: mod6, "unsigned new submissions" < wat
ben_vulpes: n6 i have no idea, buddy
ben_vulpes: n6: are you running on os x?
n6: yes.
ben_vulpes: ah well
ben_vulpes: you're on your own brave soul
mod6: punkman: <+mod6> <+ben_vulpes> there's always /patches.html... << sure if it's readable. <+mod6> what about for unsigned new submissions?
mod6: how does anything get into /patch.html ?
ben_vulpes: i recommend spinning up an aws gentoo instance. i've given up on macos support for this project.
mod6: it first must be signed.
n6: I will try that, thanks.
ben_vulpes: n6: i understand that this is not a welcome message.
mod6: and /patch.html imho should not draw off of just any submission, only signed submissions from ben, myself and the author.
mod6: it still doesn't help me view a base64 encoded submission to the deedbot
ben_vulpes: n6: d'you plan to get into the wot as well?
n6: ben_vulpes: what more welcoming then support for free?
n6: I'm already in the wot just have to auth.
ben_vulpes: !gettrust n6
assbot: Trust relationship from user ben_vulpes to user n6: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. | |
mod6: anyway, the main point i wanted to bring up re: clearsigned patches into deedbot was this email:
assbot: [BTC-dev] Rotor! ... ( )
mod6: as you can see clearsign mangles the text: - --- a/ .... - -../dist/configure
mod6: gnupg tries to escape lines that begin with a dash
jurov: mod6 just do gpg --decrypt and it undoes it
mod6: s/tries to//
ben_vulpes: !rate n6 1 crusty blood
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
mod6: jurov: to me thats an extra step... is that what we're all prepared to live with?
n6: thanks, I'm going to try and get this to work and come back
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.n6.1:e630ded4962e532d208a74d782ea9c37451b0858c31fb4280fd9f2c7ddce525e
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for n6 with note: crusty blood
jurov: mod6 please look at bigget picture, nto jsut to this one step
mod6: i'd like to make something better, this is for sure. just whatever it is, i wanna know that it is better, not just sideways.
punkman: 30 pages in, "Ada for Software Engineers", the code examples look gnarly
jurov: turdatron needs to take bundles of patch + manifest (at least, can be any other files aside from patches)
jurov: and metadata what the patch applies on
jurov: question is, how to do this all better?
mod6: good question. not sure that i have any useful answers here at this time.
mod6: other than what I already talked about and that's not really better either.
mod6: i guess im just trying to picture in my mind how i would have to use, step by step, the proposed system every single day.
mod6: and if those proposed steps are easier/better than what we currently hvae.
jurov: maybe we end up all using a script to put the package together and sign it.. but in this case it can just output an email message to be just fed to sendmail
jurov: or if someone come up with less turdy format than MIME
punkman: I wouldn't mind something like but too much css I guess
assbot: Gogs: Go Git Service - A painless self-hosted Git service ... ( )
mod6: <+jurov> mod6 please look at bigget picture, nto jsut to this one step << i think partly ... my general concern is my understanding of how this proposed system would work. this concern is based on the fact that when the current system was proposed, i had the oppertunity to speak out and put in my say in the matter, but I didn't understand it so I don't think I objected very much. and now look at where we are.
mod6: so before I say "yup, that's it, that's the thing that gets us to where we want to be", i want to fully understand what I'm agreeing to use.
ascii_field: colour me thick, but i still don't get where the 'crisis' is
jurov: so you still not understand what's this all about?
ascii_field: yes, i agree with mircea_popescu re: how patches should embed hash of antecedent file. and imho this solves whatever problem exists (that is, enables it to be solved locally by any participant, in the style he prefers)
ascii_field: while preserving the simultaneously total and minimal representation of .patch
mod6: I think I need to see a concrete example of this - end to end. I just can't picutre it mentally.
jurov: yes that one is solved. but deedbot can be used only if clearsigned and without any accompanying text
jurov: mod6 you have seen alf's patch with embedded sha512 example?
jurov: !up ascii_field
jurov: if yes we can start from there
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 14:37:50; asciilifeform: << original
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 14:37:56; asciilifeform: << augmented
mod6 looks
jurov: !up fromphuctor
mod6: ok and that sha512 hash is of the file /before/ the changes were made resulting in the patch?
mod6: (the unchanged original file)
jurov: yes
mod6: ok. will diff take that and run it and ignore that first line with the hash?
jurov: no, must roll ou our won diff/patch
jurov: *roll out
ascii_field: mod6: it will
ascii_field: because comment
mod6: it does now, or it will because we must now reinvent diff/patch ?
ascii_field: what it won't do is take the hash into account when patching
ascii_field: that requires either modified 'patch' util, or wrapped in perl etc
jurov: but it's universally usable to (1) determine what version patch applies to (2) allows to remove files without listing whole contents
ascii_field: ^
mod6: ok forget that im still confused for a moment because im dumb, and maybe I'll just get it in a few minutes...
ascii_field: this magic pill lets you take a bag of patches, and determine in what order they apply
mod6: how do we reconsile this with the patches already created/applied
mod6: ?
ascii_field: by scripted brute force if necessary
ascii_field: mod6: easy. i take mine and sign'em again
ascii_field: and the rest of us, same.
ascii_field: not so many that this is a mega-labour
punkman: or can start from next release
ascii_field: aha.
mod6: so everyone else from the beginning of time (october 24th 2014) must resign all patches?
ascii_field: also works
ascii_field: all what, 25 of'em
mod6: i need to re-read all of the logs from today and have a nice long "think" about it.
hanbot: mod6: ;;later tell hanbot ping me when you get a chance plz. thx! << heya, i've got one
ben_vulpes: poor mod6 can't catch a break around here
hanbot: (am starting today's logs myself)
mircea_popescu: mod6 sounds liek a plan
ascii_field: mod6: i'm willing to re-create all of mine
ascii_field: mod6: in the interest of maintaining the 'tree from beginning of the world' thing
ascii_field: which a robotic graphatron could then walk
mircea_popescu: good idea this
mod6: i kinda like what i heard about that earlier.
mod6: i gotta think about it a bit
trinque: putting the information to construct the tree in the patches themselves has a nice decentralized nature to it
mod6: <+ascii_field> mod6: i'm willing to re-create all of mine << ok no rush here. lemme just re-read and think about all of these things for a bit.
mircea_popescu: << blessfully, i don't think we're short these, by any sort of conceivable measure. nobody has that quality*count. we were however becoming a little short in organizing their effort, but i think that's resolving.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:44:32; asciilifeform: and yes, all of this looks like pointless sweat to the folks who struggle with builds, checking sigs, missed linefeedz, etc
mircea_popescu: << apparently not. emulate me, will you!
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:48:02; ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu will likely run me through the "oh you're complaining here have some more of what irks you" chipper
ascii_field: l0l
mircea_popescu: the "rocks fall, everyone dies" of ai : "write mp emulator"
shinohai: mod6: debian wen fine again: Linux debian 3.16.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.16.7-ckt11-1+deb8u2 (2015-07-17) x86_64 GNU/Linux
shinohai: I saved the hated Ubuntu for last
ascii_field played privately with a mircea_popescu (from log linez) shannonizer
ascii_field: it was lulzy
mircea_popescu: anything good ?
ascii_field: esp when set against one made from me
mircea_popescu: post the bash thereof lol
ascii_field: nah i get to see enough meat shannonizing in real life
ascii_field: doubt anyone wants this
ascii_field: but if yes - then will, at some point
mircea_popescu: why do you think people read reddit ? it's got shannonappeal.
ascii_field: also this is pretty easy to write and good exercise for n00bz
mod6: shinohai: excellent work! thank you. these are the first steps in a series of similar things needed.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15440 @ 0.0005467 = 8.441 BTC [+] {6}
mircea_popescu: << you're sounding like you expect this to be exceptional ? how the fuck often do i rebuild anything! what's more often than "once per machinbe" ? on ce per season ? recompile every election november ? once per pair of underwear ?
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:53:37; asciilifeform: the 'rotor' toolchain, for instance, tripped up some folks. but it needs to be built ~once per machine~
mircea_popescu: this incidentally would be a pretty great equivalent of old style personality cult bs. all os must contain picture of stalin. once he dies, computing takes day off while everyone recompiles new picture in. for everything.
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
BingoBoingo: Oh, the many ways and times qntra suffers the slings and arrows of DDoS. People just can't stop endorsing us this way
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: vs when tree updates
mircea_popescu: bestkoreaos
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo aww, again ?
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: you just described glibc, l0l
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Yeah been going on for a couple hours nao
mircea_popescu: "fixed".
mircea_popescu: ascii_field lulzy is lulzy.
mircea_popescu: << me recalls when people noticed the "make directory dev (mkdir dev). navigate to it (cd dev)" snippet.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 04:55:30; ben_vulpes: no! for it is a merely a derpy directory structure issue that any sophomore can figure out
mircea_popescu: it IS USEFUL.
mircea_popescu: in the strictly limited but ever present sense that its presence prevents its absence from being harmful.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu is a fan of knuth's 'literate programming' ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 119200 @ 0.0005489 = 65.4289 BTC [+] {6}
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: i'm a fan of knuth generally.
ascii_field: << apparently exists !
assbot: Literate Programming ... ( )
mircea_popescu: he may be argued with it, but so far without exception the "you'll come to agree, because you're smart and i'm right" controlled to date.
ascii_field: nah that's dijkstra
ascii_field: but sure.
mircea_popescu: same person.
ascii_field: l0l
ascii_field: shared beard.
mircea_popescu: i wonder how they dereference it.
mircea_popescu: actually i have nfi why knuth's book isn't the basis of cs in the us.
mircea_popescu: much like feynman's the only way to teach undergrads really
ascii_field:;a=blob;f=jonesforth.S;h=45e6e854a5d2a4c3f26af264dfce56379d401425;hb=HEAD << example of literate programming alive
assbot: Git - jonesforth.git/blob - jonesforth.S ... ( )
ascii_field: (my personal favourite. mirror - original vanished)
ascii_field: my imaginary bitcoin book was to be a work of 'literate programming'
ascii_field: for example.
mircea_popescu: actually it's perfect.
ascii_field sadly pines for the book
mircea_popescu briefly considers mirroring it, then notices it's actually histed on author's own domain, desists.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu:;a=blob;f=jonesforth.f;h=5c1309574ae1165195a43250c19c822ab8681671;hb=HEAD << the other half of it
assbot: Git - jonesforth.git/blob - jonesforth.f ... ( )
ascii_field: and yes, it runs
ascii_field: and is a complete os, in a sense
ascii_field: cople kb.
ascii_field: *couple-a
mircea_popescu: looks pretty hairshirty.
ascii_field: but not really. 'simple as possible, not simpler'
ascii_field: there's a fella somewhere who wrote an 'arm' version, if any aficionados of that arch are reading this
shinohai: I'm none too thrilled with my foray into arm since bitcoin
ascii_field: shinohai: why?
shinohai: I'm still not at a level where I can cross-compile. So I have a rather useless box atm.
ascii_field: shinohai: you have 'rotor' built, yes ?
shinohai: yup
shinohai: binary still doesn't run on mah pogo so I did something wrong.
ascii_field: didja set the arch to arm ?
shinohai: I need to see someone's build log that doesn't mind sharing, I'm sire it will click what I'm not changing.
ascii_field: i guess this is one more thing i will have to post.
shinohai: Once I do figure out this necromancy, I am sure I will kick myself for the next 2-3 years for failing to see it.
ascii_field: << i personally prefer landau
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 20:06:27; mircea_popescu: much like feynman's the only way to teach undergrads really
mircea_popescu: for russian kids.
mircea_popescu: let each culture have its own fucking buildings already. what is this globalisation.
mircea_popescu: << this actually sounds sane.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 06:40:49; BingoBoingo: My misdemeanor case is on a one way path now. It is going to hearing seeking dismissal. If not dismissed then to trial seeking not-guilty adjudication. Then to civil court seeking damages for seriously hindering my employability.
ascii_field: where is the zimbabwean landau, aha
ascii_field: btw there is a pretty fine british translation
mircea_popescu: ascii_field zimbabwean may not be a thing.
ascii_field: and didn't mircea_popescu eat it in french l0l
mircea_popescu: and sure, there is.
mircea_popescu: and yes, i did.
mircea_popescu: i'm not proposing it be forbidden or anything. just, i give localised first choice.
mircea_popescu: i made italian slavegirl read d.c. and english slavegirl read shakespeare not the other way around. why not ? works either way after all, by definition.
ascii_field pictures the gurlz lapping up feynman
mircea_popescu: ,<< "from around the world".
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 07:32:13; punkman: even though patent dates to 1974
mircea_popescu: at least it wasn't built with the ground up with getting laid in mind, so i guess there is that.
diametric: !up ascii_field
mircea_popescu: ascii_field mike_c and whomever else concerned : ?
assbot: No Such lAbs (S.NSA), July 2015 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
ascii_field: appears to display
mike_c: ah, good news. fixed for me.
ascii_field: ty mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: does it also verify ?
ascii_field: nope.
mike_c: html and pgp don't mix
ascii_field: Dear MP,\n
ascii_field: gpg: invalid armor header:
ascii_field: gpg: Signature made Tue Aug 4 23:13:13 2015 EDT using RSA key ID 01ABFFC7
ascii_field: gpg: BAD signature from "Stanislav Datskovskiy <>"
mircea_popescu: << get out of here. back in 2012 i was in a chan just like this one (or so it seemed), surrounded by idiots who blessfully got pushed out of bitcoiun by their own mentally stunted disability, but who at the time BELIEVED.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 08:17:50; BingoBoingo: Between pirateat40 and TradeFartress the latter probably ran the more dangerous long con, because people believed him. Not absolutely, but generally.
mircea_popescu: like they believe in global warming and fuck knows what else.
mircea_popescu: as a substitute for a personality.
ben_vulpes: ascii_field, mircea_popescu: didn't hanbot teach us about the dangers of html and gpg earlier?
mircea_popescu: ascii_field it's one or the other it seems. either i <pre> it which makes it verify, but then linmes are fixed length. or else iu don't, which lets you read it, but ascii gets fucked.
mircea_popescu: the pill for this would be : never ever sign a cleartext with lines longer than the signature.
mike_c: or add some css for pre
trinque: could do that derpy overflow-x: auto in css at the cost of an eyesore scrollbar
trinque: yeah
ascii_field: ugh
mircea_popescu: i suppose i could add a style markup to the pre tag.
mircea_popescu: anyone know right off what it is ?
trinque: mircea_popescu: that one I said, if you want a scrollbar
trinque: overflow-x: auto;
mircea_popescu: "style=overflow-x:auto;" ?
ascii_field blissfully ignorant of this matter
ben_vulpes: trinque: continuing our windowing and emacs sojurn:
assbot: ch11ng/exwm · GitHub ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62800 @ 0.00053312 = 33.4799 BTC [-]
trinque: style="overflow-x: auto"
mike_c: sheesh, put a semicolon at the end :)
mircea_popescu: isn't there a style that makes it wrap ?
trinque: mike_c: not required by the spec
mike_c: really? hm. spec is lazy.
mike_c: mircea_popescu: yeah, linewrap.
mircea_popescu: can i plox has usable format ty
mike_c: if you throw it up with the pre I can play with it and give you good css?
trinque: there's white-space: pre-wrap in css3
trinque: mircea_popescu: ^
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00053312 = 3.1987 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: gpg: Signature made Wed 05 Aug 2015 12:13:13 AM ART using RSA key ID 01ABFFC7
mircea_popescu: gpg: BAD signature from "Stanislav Datskovskiy <>"
mircea_popescu: in victory radio news, the thing doesn't work anymore full stop.
trinque: << options
assbot: white-space - CSS | MDN ... ( )
trinque: mike_c | really? hm. spec is lazy. << yup, everything in the browser has the squish of trying to be maximally permissive
mike_c: i concur, still doesn't verify. overflow-x did make the scrollbar appear all the way at bottom, still sucks. white-space: pre-wrap also works, and makes the line breaks look even worse, but content is at least all visible.
mike_c: Feels like a line-ending problem. dpaste the original?
mircea_popescu: still bad signature.
mike_c: yeah
mircea_popescu: deedbot-
assbot: ... ( )
deedbot-: accepted: 1
mircea_popescu: original works.
assbot: ... ( )
mircea_popescu: there was an issue where pre created a new line. why ? FUCK YOU FOR USING THINGS THATS WHY
mircea_popescu: but even with that fixed, still broken
ascii_field: BingoBoingo: ew
mike_c: I think mpex method is perhaps best method. Just show the text and link to verifiable text blob.
ben_vulpes: ^^
BingoBoingo: ascii_field: Only so many nuggets I can do when qntra under DDoS
trinque: a literal shit-heel...
ascii_field: mike_c, ben_vulpes: sad that text has to appear twice
trinque: the wonders in life, man
mircea_popescu: yeah i guess so mike_c
ascii_field: BingoBoingo: i still don't get it, why was it necessary to shit in a bath tub ?
mircea_popescu: ascii_field it's reddit baiting.\
BingoBoingo: ascii_field: Because OP was "galaxy" sized
mircea_popescu: people used to try and suck producer cock to "be a tv star"
ascii_field: iirc they make custom 'american' toilets for this
mircea_popescu: now they sit on couch try to "invent viral memes"
ascii_field: somebody linked one earlier
mircea_popescu: mike_c anyway ima link to deedbot just as soon as it pops.
ascii_field: (photo of reinforced mega-toilet)
BingoBoingo: ascii_field: Installing toilet is work. Acquiring toilet costs money that could be spent on Beetus fuel.
mike_c: technology aside, that is still good news. Perhaps 2015 will be the year!
mircea_popescu: ya srsly.
ben_vulpes: ascii_field: embrace the webshit. iframe to signed thinger!
ascii_field: ick
ben_vulpes: embrace the shit
mircea_popescu: << how aboot i buy you a vidcard ?
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 08:27:03; BingoBoingo: I jsut need to find a way to build it without Nvidia cg toolkit.
ascii_field actually wrote a web thing!
ben_vulpes: swallow the shit
ben_vulpes: love the shit
ascii_field: (phuctor)
ben_vulpes goes looking for shitposts
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ... << how aboot i buy you a vidcard ? Hard to stick in portable machine. Also problem isn't machine. Problem is cg isn't available as source or for OpenBDSM
ben_vulpes: But thoughtful Pointsman, anticipating this, has been sending laxative pills with her meals. Now her intestines whine softly, and she feels shit begin to slide down and out. He kneels with his arms up holding the rich cape. A dark turd appears out the crevice, out of the absolute darkness between her white buttocks. He spreads his knees, awkwardly, until he can feel the leather of her boots. He leans forward to surround the hot turd
ben_vulpes: with his lips, sucking on it tenderly, licking along its lower side . . . he is thinking, he’s sorry, he can’t help it, thinking of a Negro’s penis, yes he knows it abrogates part of the conditions set, but it will not be denied, the image of a brute African who will make him behave. . . . The stink of shit floods his nose, gathering him, surrounding. It is the smell of Passchendaele, of the Salient. Mixed with the mud, and the
ben_vulpes: putrefaction of corpses, it was the sovereign smell of their first meeting, and her emblem. The turd slides into his mouth, down to his gullet. He gags, but bravely clamps his teeth shut. Bread that would only have floated in porcelain waters somewhere, unseen, untasted—risen now and baked in the bitter intestinal Oven to bread we know, bread that’s light as domestic comfort, secret as death in bed . . . Spasms in his throat
ben_vulpes: continue. The pain is terrible. With his tongue he mashes shit against the roof of his mouth and begins to chew, thickly now, the only sound in the room. . . .
ben_vulpes: (Pynchon)
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo that's a point huh.
BingoBoingo: Turn out Eulora isn't completely Open Source yet.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: When I get time though I'll try chopping Eulora to remove the parts that depend on it and see if it works
ascii_field: aha, this is why i haven't tried it yet personally
mircea_popescu: honestly i don't even recall how or why cg is in there. mebbe chetty can shed a light
BingoBoingo: It's probably there for shader effects
mircea_popescu: you can definitely turn those off.
BingoBoingo: Best way to turn off is with <delete> key
BingoBoingo: Also Crystal space uses cg at least until its next release
mircea_popescu: hey, i'd be all for a special "all open" client if you feel like doing this
mircea_popescu: do it, get some pickaxes to dig up the euloran lands
BingoBoingo: I'll give it a try
BingoBoingo: If anyone else better equipped for task wants to attempt They would probably require less time.
mircea_popescu: no shortage of tasks.
shinohai: ;;later tell mod6 Ubuntu builds fine for me w/ image provided.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mod6: w00t
mod6: thanks shinohai
shinohai: nw, vm building was a bit slow but I chalk it up to Ubuntu bloat.
mod6: if anyone else wants to try here are the steps:
assbot: ... ( )
shinohai: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: since my broadcast was mentioned: any interest in 'rotolinux' ?
mod6: please ensure that you are running x86_64 by doing `uname -a`
gernika: ^^
mod6: if NOT, if you're running i686 or i386, replace with:
assbot: [BTC-dev] Modified Portatronic build script for building statically linked 32bit bitcoind: (v0.0.5-32) ... ( )
shinohai: *32-bit and Winblowze coming soon (tm)*
mod6 slaps shinohai with a large unix manual
shinohai: I spent all day yesterday getting slapped by Windows users asking questions about gaming.
ascii_field: i'd sooner port to 'amiga'
ascii_field: but - to each his own
shinohai: I refuse to buy a Windows box just to play a game.
mod6: i had a neighbor once who showed me his amiga. never stopped raving about it.
mod6: this was like in '06... it still worked. *shrug*
shinohai: I still have my childhood Tandy
mircea_popescu: < word./
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 15:27:45; trinque: the requirement that signed and deeded patches be the primary representation of a contribution great appeal though, for obvious reasons
mircea_popescu: << explain to me why do you need magic numbers.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 17:15:51; ascii_field: << how do i embed ~unmutilatable~ binaries in deedbot? uuencode ?!!!
ascii_field: ?
mircea_popescu: what do you suppose a binary is ?
ascii_field: an unmutilated string of bitz
mircea_popescu: all binaries are magic numbers.
mircea_popescu: they do not belong in the code pot.
ascii_field: can't post unmutilated - can't sign
ascii_field: just the way it is.
mircea_popescu: i dun follow
ascii_field: didn't we just have this thread ?
ascii_field: re: s.nsa broadcast?
mircea_popescu: maybe i had an aneurism or something.
mircea_popescu: but that's not a bin oh you mean text-as-binary ?
ascii_field: retarded code rapes text because it can
mircea_popescu: well calling it "binary" doesn't protect it you know, just confuses me. but i see what you mean.
ascii_field: 'binary' is what folks call strings of bits that will die if raped
ascii_field: hence why i insist that a turdatron must support 'binaries'
ascii_field: because enough with the rape plz
mircea_popescu: feminist.
ascii_field: 'i meant what i said, and i said what i meant, a walrus is certain a hundred percent'. go, rape, but that wasn't what i signed wazzit.
mircea_popescu: this conversation is hateful of male values and triggers me.
ascii_field: can always sign uuncode, l0l
ascii_field: *uuencode
mircea_popescu: << im not reading that, but did you find the actual thesis ?
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 17:32:26; BingoBoingo: << lol
mircea_popescu: on the face seems more of gavin-the-retard having "studies" and "Economists agree" and "industreew support" bs "if we say it then it becomes a thing because magic is magic" stuff
mircea_popescu: ascii_field could also just be gents and not rape the text.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Gavin doesn't know how mining works or is a liar.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: gpg rapes.
ascii_field: mail client rapes
ascii_field: sendmail rapes
ascii_field: etc.
mircea_popescu: mail yes, but i hope to see it disused eventually. gpg does not ? afaik ?
ascii_field: gpg does!
ascii_field: see the dashes in my broadcast, for example.
mircea_popescu: sigh
ascii_field: (they get 'escaped')
mircea_popescu: well it needs the dashes!
shinohai: What potential rape may look like:
assbot: ... ( )
mircea_popescu: they only get escaped if leading line!
ascii_field: this breaks code. (not even speaking of binaries, e.g., tarball)
mircea_popescu: shinohai nice tits.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: regardless, can't rely on arbitrary string staying intact
mircea_popescu: sad but true huh.
mircea_popescu: -r ?
mircea_popescu: i HATE not being able to read shit.
ascii_field: -r ?
mircea_popescu: armorer
ascii_field: -a
mircea_popescu: heh right you are.
jurov: maybe we and up patching gpg to scan for unmodified content from the beginning and for signature(s) from the end
mircea_popescu: << more or less fixed, i guess
assbot: No Such lAbs (S.NSA), July 2015 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
jurov: *end up
jurov: no mutilation needed
ascii_field: jurov: that still leaves the other rapists
ascii_field: mail clients, filters, etc
ascii_field: even paste buffers on some systems
jurov: only if you insist.
jurov: my mail client (kmail) allows to turn off wordwrap and html by two clicks.
jurov: never had any problem
mircea_popescu: << me is dutifully considering
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 18:54:25; mod6: if our idea is to clearsign patches and then submit them to deedbot, i urge you all to review this email and consider why that doesn't work:
ascii_field: jurov: i use squirrelmail, and - afaik - mutilatory
mircea_popescu: ascii_field traditionally it must be observed, the problem of rapists has been resolved by controling the social group you hang out with, not by altering male anatomy.
ascii_field: i don't see why i oughta custom gpg, custom squirrelmail, custom shoelaces
jurov: you alread have custom squirrelmail
jurov: just not customized by you
jurov: :D
ascii_field: custom as in opening up rusted shut things that i haven't adjusted for many years
ascii_field: verily this is a dumb idea
mircea_popescu: zing.
mircea_popescu: "already customized!" alfie.
mircea_popescu: you have any idea what all the tim swansons of the world gotta do wrt rusted shut things they've not adjusted for years ?
mircea_popescu: you complainin' bout squirrelmail, what's ferrocranium to say ?
ascii_field: wai wat
ascii_field: and also wat, i gotta recompile xorg for paste buffer to behave sanely?
ascii_field: no thx.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
mircea_popescu: molci i susi.
ascii_field: i'll switch to ebcdc first.
mircea_popescu: << maybe i've nbot given consideration enough time, but it seems to me that if something can not be made into a text file, that something can't be part of a computer program. the making/demaking necessarily can be automated.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 18:55:16; mod6: now, it might be that I'm not exactly understanding what the proceedure for submitting to deed bot would be. but if clearsigned .patch files, that can not work.
ascii_field: *ebcdic
mircea_popescu: for lack of a better example, might consider (included manifest), which does in fact do this, if crudely.
assbot: ... ( )
mircea_popescu: ascii_field binary text, gimme a break.
mircea_popescu: a magical distillate whereby i can read it and programs don't rape it. binartytext.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101699 @ 0.00053762 = 54.6754 BTC [+] {3}
ascii_field: aka gpg --deatch-sig
jurov: << now this is interesting. have a link?
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 21:32:44; ascii_field: and also wat, i gotta recompile xorg for paste buffer to behave sanely?
ascii_field: jurov: no link. just experience.
ascii_field: but i promise to post a sample next time it pops up
jurov: cuz i never noticed in 10 or so years married to xfree86/xorg
ascii_field: jurov: possibly this is a bug triggered by locale
jurov: i do have locale set
ascii_field: you have 100% latin!
jurov: % ls nonex
jurov: ls: nie je možné pristupovať k nonex: Adresár alebo súbor neexistuje
jurov: ^ 100%latin
ascii_field: latin.
jurov: but anyway, we're talking about code, where do you want to use 8th bit?
ascii_field: jurov: nowhere in the payload proper
ascii_field: but reflecting on the fact that i don't always get 'out' of paste buffer what comes 'in'.
jurov: ok, will wait for the occassion.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14980 @ 0.00053404 = 7.9999 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: < me. to read.
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 18:56:41; ascii_field: who thought this was a good idea, and why
ascii_field: can't read patches now ?
ascii_field: << loads in all browsers
assbot: ... ( )
ascii_field: they're all entirely readable. what am i missing ?
mircea_popescu: < wut ?!
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 19:03:14; mod6: what about for unsigned new submissions?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 208550 @ 0.00052796 = 110.1061 BTC [-] {7}
mircea_popescu: ascii_field the objection to ml as is was not that individual patches are unreadable.
ascii_field: what, then ?
mircea_popescu: well i don't feel equal to the task of restating the whole conversation as ongoing for past weeks / peaked today. i'll just say :
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 13:37:54; mircea_popescu: there are very specifically TWO things we want to do here, and they are not miscible.
ascii_field: imho embedding antecedents solves.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41900 @ 0.00053807 = 22.5451 BTC [+] {4}
mircea_popescu: if it stays as a ml, becomes a wiki, somehow otherwise including deedbot or not changes i do not care per se
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> << maybe i've nbot given consideration enough time, but it seems to me that if something can not be made into a text file, that something can't be part of a computer program. the making/demaking necessarily can be automated. << i didn't understand that this problem could be side-stepped with gpg --decrypt
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 18:55:16; mod6: now, it might be that I'm not exactly understanding what the proceedure for submitting to deed bot would be. but if clearsigned .patch files, that can not work.
mircea_popescu: just a pile of options that were considered
mircea_popescu: but i guess the consensus is pointing towards, ml gets restated with antecedents, trinque writes a grapher for it all ?
jurov: so, ml can stay as is (without filename mutilation)?
mircea_popescu: well, grapher+verifier ideally.
ascii_field: that was my original suggestion earlier, yes
mircea_popescu: i have no objections to this
ascii_field: it would make it possible for, e.g., hanbot, to view the 'patchchain' cleanly
ascii_field: and ask meaningful questions about branches
jurov: plus it will detect (and optionally show decoded )clearsigned patches?
mircea_popescu: ^
mircea_popescu: and ideally, have it spit out a "final version" with regressions accessible through some procedure (clicking)
ascii_field: jurov: the problem is that gpg 'escaping' is not a reversible operation
ascii_field: in that it is impossible for the machine to determine that a particular '- -' is to be transformed into a '-' or not
mircea_popescu: you just remove "- " from all lines :D
ascii_field: the 'escape' operation is thermodynamically lossy.
mod6: ascii_field: so does `gpg --decrypt` work for that as danielpbarron & jurov said?
ascii_field: mod6; decrypt ?
mod6: they said ...
mod6 scrolls back
ascii_field: it solves nothing
jurov: well, if gpg can't undo it and it causes the patch to fail...then it fails.
jurov: sender will have to resend with detached sig
mod6: <+danielpbarron> can't you unmutilate by using gpg --decrypt ? <+jurov> mod6 just do gpg --decrypt and it undoes it
ascii_field: 'undoes'
ascii_field: will destroy certain non-escaped text.
ascii_field: as described earlier.
mod6: so mutilates
ascii_field: aha.
mod6: ok then we're settled.
mod6: i guess for me thats the one big thing, we can't have any mutilation of the patch files. or we'll just find ourselves banging our heads all the time.
ascii_field: ^^
jurov: it computes shasums of everything submitted already
mircea_popescu: i just tried this... it doesn't mutilate on encrypt/decrypt
jurov: can check easily
mod6: and honestly, this is no poor reflection on deedbot. the thing is cool.
mircea_popescu: ie, - came out as - and - - as - -
ascii_field: that's because the output of 'encrypt' is a base64 turd that isn't expected to coexist with text the way a clearsigned string is.
jurov: as with xorg buffer, i'm curious, will see if anyone submits something with valid sig that gpg fails to unescape.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12800 @ 0.00052531 = 6.724 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ascii_field right
mod6: ah, encrypt/decrypt, but we want clearsign or am i misunderstanding this?
ascii_field: mod6: somebody wanted 'clearsigned patches'
jurov: mod6 decrypt on *clearsigned* file
mircea_popescu: << a man who burned himself with the soup...
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 19:20:55; mod6: so before I say "yup, that's it, that's the thing that gets us to where we want to be", i want to fully understand what I'm agreeing to use.
ascii_field: and i was trying to explain that this is deeply broken
jurov: will spew out the original
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> << a man who burned himself with the soup... << lol indeed
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 19:20:55; mod6: so before I say "yup, that's it, that's the thing that gets us to where we want to be", i want to fully understand what I'm agreeing to use.
mircea_popescu: tbh an equivalent of the callgraph / mike's wot graph but for PATCHES would not be amiss.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: to be clear, that is precisely what i had in mind when suggested the hash embed thing
mircea_popescu: have all the wot listed on the side. have all the patches AS A TREE listed next to it. have relations from wot tyo patches.
ascii_field: aha.
mircea_popescu: this would help me immensely.
jurov: can enlist trinque or anyone's help with graphics
mircea_popescu: so basically ml as restateds + grapher in the sense of the above, svg (clickable) is really the definitive word on this ?
jurov: clickable svg *gasp* :D
mircea_popescu: already sounds like a quantum leap tbh
mircea_popescu: jurov wut!
ascii_field: this is precisely what i had in mind, aha
mircea_popescu: mod6 ^ give that a long think.
ascii_field: (when i said 'graph walker' earlier today)
mircea_popescu: trinque and with a bonus "click here for this patch" and "click here for this patch + all its antecedents" spew.
ascii_field: 'show who signed this'
ascii_field: 'load all sigs'
mircea_popescu: epic.
ascii_field: first needs the chicken, err, the embedded antecedent indicators
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 ^ give that a long think. << i like this idea with the wot graph + source patches as a tree next to it so relations can be easily seen & drilled into.
mircea_popescu: yes.
mircea_popescu: i knew this was a tooling problem mostly. pretty much 99% of all that's needed is already here.
mircea_popescu: just need to amass the pile into a sane shape
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> already sounds like a quantum leap tbh << it is.
mircea_popescu: and opbvciously, with a checkbox "allow this antecedent"
mircea_popescu: pruning the tree of all ulteriors that depend on an unclicked patch
jurov: and "launch missiles"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15800 @ 0.00055024 = 8.6938 BTC [+] {2}
mod6: <+jurov> mod6 decrypt on *clearsigned* file << this indeed works. created file A.txt. copied A.txt to B.txt and subtracted some lines. created a unified diff of both. clearsigned the diff -- which is mutilated for escaped hyphens. upon `gpg --decrypt` of the clearsigned output patch file, i get the same hash as the pre-clearsigned hash file.
mod6: *patch file.
mod6: main difference seems to be... we would now need to enter our password every time to verify the signature as opposed to just --verify
ascii_field: no-go.
mod6: oh actually, im wrong about that.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47037 @ 0.00055025 = 25.8821 BTC [+] {5}
mod6: it doesn't ask. derp.
ascii_field: this is still procrustean
mod6: was gonna say. "how does that makes sense?!"
mod6: had to look that up.
mod6: ok well, yah
jurov: ;;ud procrustean
gribble: Google found nothing.
mod6: ok so another question i have about the deedbot way.. would be: if we submit a patch to deedbot, how do we tie a message to that same submission? say we wanna be like "Hey, this thing is neat!" Will it need to reference anothe deedbot submission or does the patch have to come after our statment in the clearsigned message?
jurov: you can just submit both at once
jurov: or otherwise suggest to deedbot they're related
ascii_field: throw message prior to the first 'diff ....' in the ,patch
ascii_field: but for the record i think this 'cram all in one file' thing is braindamaged.
mod6: im not ciked about that either.
ascii_field: braindamaged and entirely unnecessary.
ascii_field: throw hashes in deedbot, sure. or even uuencodes. but to make it a canonical repository of anything else, is a microscope-hammer.
ascii_field: or perhaps more of a hammer-microscope.
jurov: having an option to tell deedbot "present these together on one page" should suffice
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57150 @ 0.00052119 = 29.786 BTC [-] {4}
mod6: but then you could just have detached sigs?
scoopbot_revived: Pity the lil' goldbuggers.
mod6: that would be the way to do it as I said earlier. but not sure if that's really feasable.
mod6: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: detached sigs are the way to go, imho.
ascii_field: esp since >1 person can sign a patch
ascii_field: there is not a 1:1 mapping between sigs & patches
ascii_field: storing the same text >1 time is retarded
ascii_field: dealing with mutilations - likewise
mod6: well and probably error prone if he/she has to cut the upper text out just to get down to "bare" patch to re-clearsign and submit to deedbot... could miss line, something bad.
mod6: etc
ascii_field: aha.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40200 @ 0.0005516 = 22.1743 BTC [+] {3}
ascii_field: << lol (via pete_dushenski)
assbot: Government Ruins the Dishwasher (Again) : Anything Peaceful : Foundation for Economic Education ... ( )
ascii_field: 'Welcome to regulated America, where once fabulous consumer inventions like refrigerators, freezers, washing machines, and dishwashers have been reduced to a barely functioning state. The reasons are always the same: 1) phosphorous-free detergent, 2) a fetish with saving water, 3) weaker motors that use less electricity, 4) more tepid water due to low default settings on hot water heaters, and 5) reduced water pressure in
ascii_field: general.'
ascii_field: 'If the regulators really do get their way, functioning dishwashers could become like high-flow toilets: contraband to be snuck across borders and sold at a high black market prices.'
jurov: same in eu. can't find washmachine with <2 hour cycle anymore cuz "saves water and electricity"
ascii_field: i can confirm, ~proper~ toilets have been rare and collectible in usaschwitz, since '90s
ascii_field: << unrelated l0l
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( )
ascii_field: 'In my village in Zimbabwe, surrounded by wildlife conservation areas, no lion has ever been beloved, or granted an affectionate nickname. They are objects of terror.'
assbot: In Zimbabwe, We Don’t Cry for Lions - The New York Times ... ( )
danielpbarron: heh, the locals are food in the "circle of life"
ascii_field: << obligatory
assbot: Peripateticists, kinda, except girls not boys, bare cunt instead of toga and walking around the house not the garden, but otherwise exactly the same. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27400 @ 0.0005186 = 14.2096 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 102129 @ 0.00054998 = 56.1689 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 146871 @ 0.00055312 = 81.2373 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7971 @ 0.00051829 = 4.1313 BTC [-]
Adlai: oh look, it's shitpost o'clock:
assbot: Logged on 15-12-2014 23:14:04; assbot: The MPEx Shuffle - vidme ... ( )
Adlai: goes well with music
mircea_popescu: jurov ie, like being in procust's bed, crushed by a giant to fit.
Adlai: <<
assbot: Logged on 04-08-2015 21:50:14; ascii_field: danielpbarron: he was a relatively early 'computer sucks and must be rebuilt' person. sadly, i've no idea what he is up to these days.
assbot: asdf / asdf | GitLab ... ( )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform [...] microhammer << was just an early suggestion, no one's married to it.
mircea_popescu: to celebrate new trilema header, i give you...
assbot: ... ( )
shinohai: Bravissimo
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70018 @ 0.00053621 = 37.5444 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22282 @ 0.00053924 = 12.0153 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: dulap ~STILL~ wedged
asciilifeform: 'getinfo' call i made this morning ~STILL~ waiting
asciilifeform: disconnecting node
asciilifeform: accepted connection
asciilifeform: socket closed
asciilifeform: disconnecting node
asciilifeform: ...
asciilifeform: etc
asciilifeform: other nodes - normal
shinohai: I still have 0 connections on both my nodes
asciilifeform: socket no message in first 60 seconds, 1 0
asciilifeform: motherfuckers
asciilifeform: guess this means i'ma have to set up vpn between the nodez
asciilifeform: but this is not enough, will need the hard-fuckyou-never-disconnect-from-nobles patch
shinohai: O.o
asciilifeform: think of it this way: zoolag and incitatus were plugged into dulap with -addnode. but this was not enough
trinque: needs something akin to connect but with multiple, right?
asciilifeform: -connect takes multiples
asciilifeform: but is RETARDED in that it creates a drone node that can't be connected to by anyone.
shinohai: I was about to say ... ive been using -connect only for weeks
shinohai: which defeats the purpose
asciilifeform: confirmed, neither zoolag nor incitatus is presently connected to dulap
asciilifeform: this should not be a thing.
asciilifeform: connect or fucking die.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 164100 @ 0.00055226 = 90.6259 BTC [+] {8}
asciilifeform: i was loathe to implement hardcoded noble-peer by ip, because hitler can put whatever he wants at that ip, from the perspective of my box
asciilifeform: (mitm)
asciilifeform: for now it'll have to be hardcoded to port on localhost, pumped through ssh tunnel to remote host, where same.
trinque: asciilifeform: ah right
trinque: is this just stupid behavior entirely re: connect?
trinque: seems so
asciilifeform: trinque: i don't have ANYTHING -connect'ed
trinque: should be separate concerns entirely
asciilifeform: this concerns all modes.
trinque: I'm saying one setting for "serve blocks to others" and another for which nodes to connect to
asciilifeform: i have a box where some sniveling fucker has been lifting payloads out of tcp, for ~9+ hours now.
asciilifeform: trinque: setting '-peers' for nodes which 1) don't obey 'misbehave' bits 2) get served PRIORITY regardless of what
asciilifeform: 3) node is considered to be operating in red blinkenlight mode if ANY of them are not responding
asciilifeform: call'em 'supernodez' if feeling rpietilian
shinohai: I just commented out my addnode/connect jazz just to run for now :/
asciilifeform: #2 in particular means that 'plebes' get DROPPED EN MASSE if that's what it takes
asciilifeform: to service a noble.
asciilifeform: this is good prep for the shiny phyoootooreh of hello kitty when noble nodes will sit on trunk lines and connecting to them will cost what a seat at nyse costs
shinohai: ^____________________^
asciilifeform: laugh all you like, but i can't picture things working, long-term, any other way
shinohai: asciilifeform: with the pogo binary from the mailing list I got 3 connections xD
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24928 @ 0.00053707 = 13.3881 BTC [-]
shinohai: nm, they arent the connections I specified.
BingoBoingo: !up tcrypt
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19551 @ 0.00053707 = 10.5003 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: It looks like MS has been outbid for Theo's love
assbot: The OpenBSD Foundation Announces First Platinum Donor: CII ... ( )
shinohai: <<< kek
assbot: Payed for coffee. Payed twice by mistake. Merchant used BitPay. Help! : Bitcoin ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90244 @ 0.00054299 = 49.0016 BTC [+] {3}
shinohai: Little wonder I can find any jobs4bitcoin these days:
assbot: HIRING: 3 BTC Finder fee, find a lender for me. : Jobs4Bitcoins ... ( )
punkman: shinohai, dafuq is that
shinohai: Some idiot on jobs4bitcoin. Some days the requests baffle me.
punkman: looks like plain laundering deal
shinohai: My thoughts as well. I'll throw up a webserver or stuff like that on there. But those sorts of postings are a big nope for me.
assbot: [For Hire] Chinese to English Translation : Jobs4Bitcoins ... ( )
punkman: lulz4bitcoin
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23001 @ 0.00055705 = 12.8127 BTC [+]
punkman: << meowmix!
assbot: [Hiring] Secure Web Developer : Jobs4Bitcoins ... ( )
BingoBoingo: These rates
assbot: [For Hire] Chinese to English Translation : Jobs4Bitcoins ... ( )
assbot: Meowmixids scammed me : fakeid ... ( )
mats: win10 has a package manager
mats: huk
BingoBoingo: Orly
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32983 @ 0.00053367 = 17.602 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform some nodes may be like that, but it's necessarily going to be the exception not the rule
BingoBoingo: Oh, so /r/coontown was banned
BingoBoingo: I think it makes sense for node operators to come to agreements to make some of their connections through SSH tunnels.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9917 @ 0.00052836 = 5.2397 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty obvious that it would be a rare thing. most folks don't have nyse seats.
asciilifeform: dulap ~still~ in black hole.
asciilifeform spent the past few hrs looking at what it'd take to craft the 'noble nodez' thing.
mircea_popescu: so why aren;t you buying the trunk line
asciilifeform: because i'm a pauper ?
asciilifeform: why else.
mircea_popescu: hm
mircea_popescu: that didn't play out as expected.
asciilifeform: l0l
BingoBoingo thinks something like OpenBSD uses for authenticating repository keys for anonCVS could work for important node connections
mircea_popescu: "If you can write 'if' in FORTH, then why restrict 44 yourself to the usual if/while/for/switch constructs? You want a construct that iterates 45 over every other element in a list of numbers? You can add it to the language."
mircea_popescu: this strikes me as uniquely retarded
asciilifeform: what, in particular ?
mircea_popescu: why would i make a "construct" in the language that does i+2
asciilifeform: say you wanna implement a bignum
mircea_popescu: ok
asciilifeform: walks an array of $machineword and adds'em up, munging the carry bits as needed.
asciilifeform: just one example.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is not even the darkest voodoo. consider, e.g.,
assbot: Logged on 20-06-2015 01:37:28; asciilifeform: phun phakt: 'scheme' programming language has its 'call-with-current-continuation', perhaps the oddest and 'most generic' control structure known, which takes the current place in execution and turns it into an assignable (yes) closure (i.e. callable function!) -- typically it is implemented using setjmp().
mircea_popescu: why would i want to do it THIS way
asciilifeform: resistance of the medium
mircea_popescu: sit there and debug off-by-one errors in a pile of asm ?
asciilifeform: you wouldn't
mircea_popescu: what's wrong with include bignum.h
asciilifeform: BECAUSE NOT FORTH
asciilifeform: not part of the universe.
asciilifeform: can't be sourced at runtime
asciilifeform: and twiddled
mircea_popescu: so i static link
asciilifeform: and 'debug' only happens if someone made mistake.
asciilifeform: universe is to be perfect.
mircea_popescu: yes. me.
mircea_popescu: that's mostly what i make.
mircea_popescu: mistakes.
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu please don't change profession to sapper.
mircea_popescu: problem is sapper keeps trying to change profession into me
mircea_popescu is jus' sittin' here
asciilifeform: 'you may not be interested in sapping, but sapping is interested in you'
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: << for 'forth' n00bz
assbot: Example Forth Code ... ( )
asciilifeform: (and potential aficionados)
asciilifeform: this, recall, is the universe on which chuck moore built not only ic, but entire tooling for his fab.
asciilifeform: possibly the only non-winblowz/wintel-based electronics toolchain in the world.
asciilifeform: (remaining)
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> resistance of the medium << Is there any other reason to ever do anything?
asciilifeform: btw if you own a 'mac' or a 'sun', you have forth.
BingoBoingo: << Reddit
assbot: Checking your bits ... ( )
asciilifeform: or possibly only on ppc macs?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Probably only on PPC. PPC got a lot of cool stuff. Perhaps not across whole PPC run though. Will have to look into.
asciilifeform: 'A community will be Quarantined on Reddit when we deem its content to be extremely offensive or upsetting to the average redditor or to ourselves.' << l0lziez
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23100 @ 0.00053946 = 12.4615 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo not sure if entirely improvement or not
assbot: dpaste: 30TF18Z ... ( )
asciilifeform: l0l, medicine for corpse.
asciilifeform: << moar forth for n00bz
assbot: fibonacci numbers in Forth ... ( )
asciilifeform: (basic maths)
asciilifeform: if it seems 'hairy', it is only to folks who don't use 'rpn' calculator daily.
BingoBoingo: Forth looks incredibly legible. More so than cpp
asciilifeform: and worth noting that a perfectly usable forth, on which all of these examples will run, can be implemented for just about ~any~ machine in a few HUNDRED BYTES
asciilifeform: needing not even operating system.
asciilifeform: (so long as you have a serial port going)
mircea_popescu doesn't dispute any of this.
mircea_popescu: but it does seem to me very much akin to a "hey, if you salt a fresh frog leg you can electrocute it into moving". cool! but instead i order my slaves to read and summarize for me!
asciilifeform: it doesn't cure cancer, baldness, impotence, no.
asciilifeform: this is more like 'a few minutes' incantations create a gurl from thin air'
mircea_popescu: orly ?
asciilifeform: she might not be grade-a beauty, but fuckable.
mircea_popescu: this i'd like to see demonstrated.
mircea_popescu: ahahahaha
asciilifeform: ask chuck moore.
mircea_popescu: i guess we get to the gist of it
asciilifeform: he's in her right now.
asciilifeform: !s greenarrays
assbot: 14 results for 'greenarrays' :
mircea_popescu: yes in her, but as in, he fell in ?
BingoBoingo flipping through Eulora source can make no sense of what files do what. It is nothing like Bitcoin which is the only big cpp turn I am kinda familiar with.
asciilifeform: neh, as in pumping happily
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo chetty spent two years for a result in parts no different.
asciilifeform: << obligatory re: up/down of forth
assbot: My history with Forth & stack machines ... ( )
asciilifeform: ^ mega-classic
mircea_popescu: "My VLSI tools take a chip from conception through testing. Perhaps 500 lines of source code. Cadence, Mentor Graphics do the same, more or less. With how much source/object code?"
asciilifeform: (imho the definitive work on the subject)
mircea_popescu: yeah, this part is clear to me
mircea_popescu: but... i don't design chips!
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I may surprise drop cg less full open Eulora client, but more likely CrystalSpace will hit version 2.2, chetty will build Eulora client against it, and Full Open Eulora client just happens
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i don't think we will ever move that.
asciilifeform: it is an example of a gnarly domain that chuck moore obliterated into something that fits in his palm.
asciilifeform brb eating
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: It appears years in the future. I imagine Adlai will prolly get an emacs client first. Or I'll get a sacrificial linux machine first (sacrificial linux machine is tiered below box to colo cheap for infrastructure BTC node).
BingoBoingo: But I am in the process of dancing with university to set up job interview, so may have fiat stream to start burning soon
mircea_popescu: : ( 41 word drop ; immediate
mircea_popescu: i have to know the ascii value of ) to code in forth ?
Adlai: being able to grow a beard should suffice
scoopbot_revived: BitBet (S.BBET) July 2015 Statement
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform truth be told : do you find this interesting for any other reason than the vague whiff of a promise of perhaps allowing you toi make btc chips /
BingoBoingo: Resistance of the medium?
BingoBoingo: Oh BitBet got big donations!!!
mod6: ok so was kinda thinking about something here... so we all love to hate the mailing list in a way - but it's a decent spot to post new things, experimental, SoBAs etc. But it's not good for keeping track of patches that /actually/ are accepted and a part of a given "release".
mod6: but what if we then, say, at the end of a testing/release cycle were to (instead of signing or as well as posting to the mailing list) post the plaintext patch and a detach signature from the originating author, myself & ben to deedbot as a perm storage for these patches?
mod6: trinque thinks this might be able to be implemented without moving heaven and earth
mircea_popescu: "Good Forth programmers reportedly don't use much of those. Good Forth programmers arrange things so that they flow on the stack. " this is mel redivivus innit. most pessimum!
mircea_popescu: mod6 why'd it need anything moved at all ?
mod6: oh, i think he was saying that he would need to implement accepting a second argument and making it so that the URL contains a hash of the original plaintext patch.
trinque: mircea_popescu: he's considering a case where the thing would be able to accept new detached sigs for existing deeds
BingoBoingo thinks whole problem is that 'patch' demands line numbers instead of using nearby lines of code as landmarks
mod6: that way it sort of also solves the problem of keeping track of who signed which patch. since deedbot stores these sigs in a horizontal fashion next to the address.
mircea_popescu: promises to make a nightmare of management tho.
mircea_popescu: how do i do "find me all people who signed this" ?
trinque: that calls for a second screen which would group by deed and list the sigs
mod6: i guess this thought was sort of a work in progress.
mod6: maybe something can be added? like trinque is saying? i dunno.
punkman: BingoBoingo: it does use nearby lines
trinque: neat thought; I can see something useful there for contracts generally
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok. i both read this before and i broadly agree with the man.
punkman: trinque: see also
assbot: Logged on 09-11-2014 01:21:15; punkman: here's a thought: .sign AQLSTVsF
trinque: punkman: yup that's precisely what's being discussed
mod6: so i guess all in all, the deedbot solution, if it can be created, seems better than my initial proposal of 2 mailing lists; one for everything, one for patches accepted only. which seems simple as well, but now we have to manage two lists.
mod6: on the other side of the coin, if we do something like this with deedbot, we need to ensure a mirror is always available.
punkman: I don't see how deeding patches helps with what started this discussion
mircea_popescu: "Bacteria have no junk in their DNA. " << very false, actually. percent-wise, the junk-in-dna is perhaps the most stable parameter of life in general
mircea_popescu: tbh i don't either.
mod6: well, nevermind then.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64250 @ 0.000527 = 33.8598 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: not that I'd mind patch deeds, but can basically deed patch hashes already
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37500 @ 0.00055807 = 20.9276 BTC [+] {3}
trinque: this grouping together of things signed can be done with deeds as they are
mircea_popescu: moreover, it just puts you in harm's way mod6.
trinque: just a hash of the content aside from the sig
mircea_popescu: what, now you're oBLIGEd to sign shit so people can use it ?
mircea_popescu: what you got, a deathwish ?
asciilifeform: << i happen to like forth. i bring up chuck moore as an example of 'yes we can recreate 25 years of electronics on a napkin, and it'll fucking work'
assbot: Logged on 06-08-2015 01:51:35; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform truth be told : do you find this interesting for any other reason than the vague whiff of a promise of perhaps allowing you toi make btc chips /
asciilifeform: these are not entirely related, however.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> moreover, it just puts you in harm's way mod6. << well. not all patches, just ones that we've signed off on anyway.
mircea_popescu: i still don't see why i'd do it, myself.
mod6: no different than what we're already doing.
BingoBoingo: Oh, so much qntra DDoS
mod6: or is it? and how?
mircea_popescu: if it's no different then why's it being discussed :)
mod6: i just figured it was a neato way to keep the patches that we sign separate from the rest of the heap of stuff.
asciilifeform: << prolly the #1 common n00b observation. but you really want patches to only apply to precisely the thing they were meant for! context doesn't give you that.
assbot: Logged on 06-08-2015 01:59:06; *: BingoBoingo thinks whole problem is that 'patch' demands line numbers instead of using nearby lines of code as landmarks
trinque: one tangle is the lack of clear separation of problems in the conversation.
mod6: but i see your point.
trinque: you've got "who signed this patch" and also "what is the parent node patch of this patch"
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: File hashes fix
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo fixed.
punkman: asciilifeform: but it does fuzz
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I get a 404 nao
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: nevermind, fixed
trinque: I actually grow to like the wiki suggestion best for the patch tree
BingoBoingo: And somehow 9 comment spammers made it through DDoS
trinque: need to document process at a step? go for it, it's a damn wiki
mircea_popescu: so wait, are we upon meditation now unaccepting the previous consensus-y spot ?
asciilifeform: ???
assbot: Logged on 05-08-2015 21:50:41; mircea_popescu: but i guess the consensus is pointing towards, ml gets restated with antecedents, trinque writes a grapher for it all ?
asciilifeform really, really doesn't grasp why any of the things mentioned thus far - OTHER than the antecedent markers - are needed.
asciilifeform: them & the grapher.
BingoBoingo: <<
trinque: that actually works fine for me as a separate tool, and as you say, if there's a wiki, great
mod6: <+asciilifeform> them & the grapher. << i can live with this.
mod6: was just derpin i guess.
trinque: mircea_popescu: yep that sounds fine
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: not Official until approved by
BingoBoingo: lol
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo "ddos" is you know, best effort kinda deal. just because you can't get through in 5 tries doesn't mean every one of the 50k or whatever many tries also failks.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Given the duration seems like they succeded closer to 1 in 4 or 1 in 3
assbot: ... ( )
trinque: BingoBoingo: fucker just got me actually
trinque: he challenged me to a game of "lemme try an' cut you" and I lost
BingoBoingo: I me probably not going to intentionally acquire cat until possesses farm.
scoopbot_revived: Brief Offer Insight into USG Theory of Internet Security
BingoBoingo: Title fxd
decimation: as a long time user of RPN calculators I do indeed find forth pleasing
trinque: BingoBoingo: "As if so often" << typo
punkman: "Next Generation Cyber Initiative (Next Gen Cyber) received USD$ 400.6 mn in Treasury funding in 2014 alone, which was used to employ 1`333 full-time positions" << really? they couldn't have hired 4 more?
BingoBoingo: fxd
BingoBoingo: punkman: For Srs
asciilifeform: n00bz
asciilifeform: this is a standard usg racket:
mircea_popescu: 2. Next Generation Cyber Initiative (Next Gen Cyber) received USD$ 400.6 mn in Treasury funding in 2014 alone, which was used to employ 1`333 full-time positions including 756 agents.
mircea_popescu: shoulda just paid for cyberlockerz lmao
asciilifeform: 1) 'we MUST do N xs!!111!!!' 2) congress funds 2N 3) 'we could not afford to fill N x-s!' 4) congress funds 100N 5) 'we finally filled N/2! victory will come!' 6) 'private sector partnerz' snort coke, laugh all the way to 'skull and bones' frat reunion with N/2 worth of usd in the form of diamond suitcases.
asciilifeform: (the rest - exercise for reader)
BingoBoingo: CIA cuts coke with talcum for private sector partners?
asciilifeform: the joke is always on the public, because at no point was so much as N=1 needed for any conceivable purpose
asciilifeform: not even in the sense that every street corner 'needs' a cop, or said cop 'needs' the democratizer baton on his belt
asciilifeform: 'and that Darkode intended to use Bitcoin addresses as authentication tools' << mno. someone purporting to be 'darkode' admin proclaimed that ~some idiot webwallet~ will be used !
asciilifeform: != 'bitcoin addresses'
asciilifeform: multiple levels of imbecility here
asciilifeform: did anyone ~really~ expect to hear about ACTUAL opposition, the kind with teeth, to usg, from usg-controlled media organs /
asciilifeform: ?
asciilifeform: expect only isises.
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski ^
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;calc 400600000 / 1333
gribble: 300525.131283
asciilifeform: notbad.jpg
asciilifeform: even if half goes to cocaine for skull&bonez
asciilifeform: that's still 2x the market rate for a chimp who clicks a mouse to run 'EnCase'
asciilifeform: if not 3x
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Jaundiced Pooh update
assbot: I Don’t Let My Kids Watch Winnie The Pooh Because... | ClickHole ... ( )
asciilifeform: as for mircea_popescu's observation as quoted in qntra, i will say now what i said then:
asciilifeform: the reason anyone (NOT skull&bones and paid $maxint for zero work) works for usg is precisely the same reason anyone works for zimbabwe or mali:
asciilifeform: the rent gotta be paid.
BingoBoingo: “Hey, kids, come watch the emasculated bear with the scary fingerless hands who’s never fucked a day in his life and who is obsessed with a little boy of a different species.”
asciilifeform: and it isn't like the country has much of a real economy left, to work in, to pay it with
trinque: "I'd much rather my kids watch the fuck machine named Big Bird." << oh my sides
BingoBoingo: trinque: Seriously
BingoBoingo: "He’s got that swagger. There are a lot of good lessons children can learn from a major-league pussy-crusher like Big Bird, such as the importance of confidence, courage, and friendship. "
BingoBoingo: "Winnie the Pooh, on the other hand, wouldn’t know the first thing about courage. If he were on United Airlines Flight 93, for example, not only would he have not joined the revolt against the terrorists, but he probably would’ve gotten down on his yellow knees and sucked the terrorists’ cocks one by one. “Oh, bother!” he would shrug as the al-Qaeda operatives drilled the back of his throat with their pube-slathered ding
BingoBoingo: -dongs."
decimation: asciilifeform: yes my relatively modest lifestyle needs 10-20 btc/month
assbot: It’s Our Duty To Support The Troops And The Secon... | ClickHole ... ( )
decimation: easily double or triple in east coast
trinque: wahahahaha
asciilifeform: decimation: aha
asciilifeform: and this is just bare minimum
decimation: asciilifeform: to the first approximation, we all work for the fed
asciilifeform: (anyone who thinks that this is 'serious money' should try, say, getting sick in usa)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38550 @ 0.00055814 = 21.5163 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: aha
trinque: "'s everyone's duty to support the troops, and also to support the Second Amendment should the day come when we need to overthrow the government and kill those troops."
decimation: lol
decimation: < lulz
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54900 @ 0.00055814 = 30.6419 BTC [+]
decimation: "My excitement was doused when I realized that the lion killer was being painted as the villain. I faced the starkest cultural contradiction I’d experienced during my five years studying in the United States."
asciilifeform: trinque: the thing is quite like what mr mold called 'crocodile humour' (unfair, imho, characterization of soviet magazine 'krokodil') - 'the powerful laughing at the powerless'
asciilifeform: or, bringing back orwell,
asciilifeform: 'Béraud used to contribute to the Fascist weekly paper Gringoire, which in its later years had become the most disgusting rag it is possible to imagine. I have seldom been so angered by anything in the press as by its cartoon when the wretched Spanish refugees streamed into France with Italian aeroplanes machine-gunning them all the way. The Spaniards were pictured as a procession of villainous-looking men, each pushing a han
asciilifeform: d-cart piled with jewellery and bags of gold. Gringoire kept up an almost continuous outcry for the suppression of the French Communist Party, but it was equally fierce against even the mildest politicians of the Left. One can get an idea of the moral level at which it conducted political controversy from the fact that it once published a cartoon showing Léon Blum in bed with his own sister. Its advertisement columns were ful
asciilifeform: l of ads for clairvoyants and books of pornography. This piece of rubbish was said to have a circulation of 500,000.'
trinque: I can see the point; in fact I made a similar one about "satirical" news shows recently
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16050 @ 0.00053779 = 8.6315 BTC [-]
trinque: still I'll have a chuckle at my own powerlessness
decimation: yes, note that about 95% of the 'satire' is approximately 'those rednecks are so backward/stupid/racsis/dumb'
asciilifeform: 'Note also how quickly Reynolds resorts to ridicule. There is a kind of pseudosatirical humor, or what would be humor if it was in any way funny, that is an unmistakable product of his time in Moscow. I call the trope "crocodile humor" after the Soviet humor magazine, Krokodil.'
asciilifeform: ( mr mold, )
assbot: Unqualified Reservations: How to read and enjoy bogus history ... ( )
BingoBoingo: <decimation> yes, note that about 95% of the 'satire' is approximately 'those rednecks are so backward/stupid/racsis/dumb' << And yet us comparatively redder necks... Don't have urban hipster problems.
decimation: yes, in general the rednecks don't give a fuck (rightly so)
asciilifeform: << the canonical post
assbot: Unqualified Reservations: President Obama, with a little perspective ... ( )
asciilifeform: 'Many UR readers have had the priceless educational privilege of growing up behind the Iron Curtain. These readers will identify Professor DeLong's tone at once: it is the tone of the Soviet humor magazine Krokodil. I will take the liberty of Anglicizing, and call it "crocodile humor." Extremely educated readers may also be familiar with the Nazi variant, as found in Der Stürmer and the like. The material is different, of cou
asciilifeform: rse, but the tone is unmistakable. We'll hear a good deal more of it in the next four years.'
asciilifeform: 'Crocodile humor is the laughter of the powerful at the powerless. It is not intended to be funny. It is intended to intimidate. Those who laugh, as many do, are those who love to submerge themselves in a mob, feel its strength as theirs, chant and shake their spears as one.'
decimation: a very stark example recently is the outrage/mockery over that lion safari guy
trinque: btw, trilema is down
trinque: asciilifeform: I laugh at the gallows, not at any mob power
trinque: but it's a point well made
asciilifeform: << uploaded for this thread. i will let readers decide if mr mold was fair about krokodil
decimation: "A week later, my mother gathered me with nine of my siblings to explain that her uncle had been attacked but escaped with nothing more than an injured leg. The lion sucked the life out of the village: No one socialized by fires at night; no one dared stroll over to a neighbor’s homestead."
asciilifeform: perhaps he was - and had read this exact issue
decimation: "When the lion was finally killed, no one cared whether its murderer was a local person or a white trophy hunter, whether it was poached or killed legally. We danced and sang about the vanquishing of the fearsome beast and our escape from serious harm."
asciilifeform: (not necessary, strictly, to speak ru, to appreciate)
decimation: asciilifeform: why with the 'against the nazis'? not exactly a difficult sell
asciilifeform: 'remember, paul, 1940?' 'sure! we were in france! took everything that fit in our hands!' 'ah, i still had hands then!' 'and remember when we ran from stalingrad?' 'ah, i still had legs then!'
trinque: lol
trinque: it is interesting to see that defeating the nazis was such a point of pride even in 85
asciilifeform: is now still.
trinque: pic of the guy wrenching open the swastika jail cell window
asciilifeform: will be in 2050.
trinque: for example
decimation: this reminds me of that 'anti-nazi' article I found in the frankfurter zeitung
decimation: "nothing feels as good as fighting rightists
assbot: Logged on 20-02-2015 03:02:21; decimation: < "Nichts tut so gut wie das Gefühl, gegen Rechts zu kämpfen."
mircea_popescu: " As such, 5 of the 56 field offices operated by the FBI currently lack a computer scientist assigned to that office's Cyber Task Force."
asciilifeform: trinque: the article on that page concerns a sapper
mircea_popescu: ok, i lolled.
mircea_popescu: wtf is it they do again ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they
assbot: Logged on 06-08-2015 02:42:31; asciilifeform: that's still 2x the market rate for a chimp who clicks a mouse to run 'EnCase'
BingoBoingo: <decimation> yes, in general the rednecks don't give a fuck (rightly so) << Not just lack of giving a fuck, lack of need to give a fuck
decimation: BingoBoingo: it's kinda like how the zimbabwaen tribes are now gonna have stories about why white people root for the lions that eat them
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91300 @ 0.0005582 = 50.9637 BTC [+] {3}
BingoBoingo: decimation: Any decent Rhodesian tribe is going to kill the lion
trinque: asciilifeform: is this one on page 13 with the american flag on a cloud about "yankees think they can own everything" or something?
BingoBoingo: Just they unlike the Dentist will use an AK instead of a bow.
asciilifeform: trinque: caption: 'pardon me, my dear, but you are in a strategically-important area!'
decimation: BingoBoingo: sure, but the problem remains: why are distant strangers on the lion's side?
trinque: asciilifeform: hah, cool
asciilifeform: decimation: because 'cute kitteh'
BingoBoingo: !b 6
assbot: Last 6 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
BingoBoingo: decimation: My guess is they melt for giant kitteh forgetting they killed all of their giant fittehs
BingoBoingo: *kittehs
decimation: I suggest anyone who is against lion-hunting: go help guard the lions (without weapons) in their territory. when the lion eats your leg as you sleep, you will know he is doing it with appreciation
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67250 @ 0.00052451 = 35.2733 BTC [-] {9}
mircea_popescu: << very valid point. where's the actual satire ?
assbot: Logged on 06-08-2015 02:54:26; decimation: yes, note that about 95% of the 'satire' is approximately 'those rednecks are so backward/stupid/racsis/dumb'
asciilifeform: see thread.
mircea_popescu: the malnourished, inept population of the coast towns is so fucking ridiculous it'd be rather easy.
decimation: < ascii perhaps they secretly fantasize about being wounded/killed by the very lions they wish to 'save'
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 04:09:48; asciilifeform: where believer is invited to picture himself as blind from birth street urchin etc
assbot: Groom sues bride for not looking pretty without make-up - Emirates 24|7 ... ( )
mircea_popescu: ;;google trilema cancerous fags
gribble: Trilterviuri on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu.: <>; July 2014 on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu.: <>; Ken Park on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu.: <>
mircea_popescu: dude google's useless.
asciilifeform: decimation: doubt that it's as complicated as all that. probably just straight mental mapping of the lion in the washington zoo, or even in some cartoon, to the real thing
asciilifeform: as pictured in mircea_popescu's old article
asciilifeform: (linked earlier today)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is gonna love this one,
assbot: First-Ever Latin America Bitcoin Conference Held in Buenos Aires - NEWSBTC ... ( )
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> decimation: doubt that it's as complicated as all that. probably just straight mental mapping of the lion in the washington zoo, or even in some cartoon, to the real thing << Last time I went to St Louis zoo they had balding malnourished lions. Surprised local bangers didn't take them as bait for training their pitbulls.
mircea_popescu: lmao
mircea_popescu: first time i hear about this. consequently, i shan't be going.
mircea_popescu: imagine, the retards.
asciilifeform: remember, FIRST!
asciilifeform: EVER!
asciilifeform: l0l
decimation: I was reading another article somewhere - thier point was that if trophy-hunting whites stop coming to hunt lions because of this bullshit, they are not going to keep the wildlife reserves
mircea_popescu: now you know what it feels like to be a cool kid, asciilifeform >D
decimation: thus, farms encroach, tribes kill lion - result: no more lions
asciilifeform: decimation: same place tiger went
asciilifeform: (the animal survives largely in... chinese farms. where their cock meat is harvested, no shit.)
mircea_popescu: "Then the 18 bits of the GA144. Don't be impressed. It is a stupid design error. At the time 18 bits static memory chips where in fashion." << i happen top buy this btw.
mircea_popescu: i was unimpressed reading about it originally, and i stay unimpressed.
asciilifeform: wai wut
asciilifeform: the two extra bitz are for parity, wat
asciilifeform: 1 per bt
asciilifeform: byte
mircea_popescu: yes yes.
decimation: "The only reason I did it was THAT COLORFORTH JUST DIDN'T RUN ON THE THREE MACHINES I HAD AVAILABLE." < my experience too
mircea_popescu: and ALSO, i buy the theory that the principal reason chuck moore is mentioned by name is a successful eight digit settlement iwth intel
mircea_popescu: rather than some sort of technical accomplishment per se.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: love him or hate, his toolchain is winblows and x86 - free, from the ore to the register.
asciilifeform: and otherpeoplescode-free
asciilifeform: which to me is alpha and omega.
mircea_popescu: i don't either, really.
asciilifeform: everything in mircea_popescu's room that is eating mains current was CADed under winblowz
decimation: asciilifeform: I thought 'colorforth' was written for winblows
mircea_popescu: but you know, just because you like a girl's tits is no cause to think she's got the worlds best hairdo.
asciilifeform: 100 dollars to doughnuts
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you lose, i got your own damned rng chips here.
asciilifeform: decimation: afaik is descendant of original (nameless?) that is contemporary with cp/m
BingoBoingo: !b 7
assbot: Last 7 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: golden turd runs winblowz
mircea_popescu: cad-ed you sed.
decimation: yeah I guess it runs on 'bare pentium' too
asciilifeform: and, though i do not, the folks who built my machines - did
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: so unclean.
mircea_popescu: not the contention.
mircea_popescu: i made 100 bucks today! BETTING!
asciilifeform: also gotta point out that the $redacted analogue ic on the rng was prolly baked in a cn fab
asciilifeform: running guess what.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i made 100 bucks today! BETTING! On what?
asciilifeform: not saying that this brings in the breath of satan, but in point of fact moore achieved escape from this orbit
decimation: heh apparently chuck moore made a mint suing intel over patent stuff
asciilifeform: by ~himself~
asciilifeform: decimation: aha, and used the money to buy atomic dirigible
asciilifeform: (i.e. fab)
decimation: sure, but doesn't seem to be getting much traction
asciilifeform: precisely what i would do in his position
mircea_popescu: not really realised much of the settlement, from what i gather, but nevertheless, people love to dream.
asciilifeform: decimation: he doesn't give a damn about traction. he built that thing for archaeologists.
asciilifeform: same as i would.
asciilifeform: (i would build different device, yes. but same basic idea)
decimation: yes and in this he appears to have succeeded
asciilifeform: fits-in-fucking-head.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: most of the settlement, if indeed there was one and it is not disinfo - went, as always and without exception it does, to the bloodsuckers
asciilifeform: (lawyers)
mircea_popescu: right
asciilifeform: what remained was - apparently - enough to bake some si
decimation: asciilifeform: one wonders what could be done with an 'intel-class' (14 nm) chip which contains 2^20 little 'stack machines'
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: most of the settlement, if indeed there was one and it is not disinfo - went, as always and without exception it does, to the bloodsuckers << This is why if misdemeanor if not dismissed at hearing I intend to fire lawyer.
asciilifeform: though i will add that moore operated for decades as a successful consultant, a la the pdp emulator fella
asciilifeform: plenty of heavy industrial (as in water-in-the-tap, not google et al whores) customers
asciilifeform: decimation: imho this is not the correct application for forth, and moore went profoundly wrong in going that way
asciilifeform: it is for ~simplicity~
asciilifeform: like kalash
asciilifeform: picture 'what could be done' with a kalash with 2^20 barrels, aha.
asciilifeform: defeats the purpose of self existing.
decimation: there does appear to be some problems with his toolchain with 'scaling' to that many cores
asciilifeform: why?
decimation: there's mention of having to write some code 'single threaded' instead of using all the cores on the chip
decimation: for simplicity
asciilifeform: hm
asciilifeform: ask him, not me
asciilifeform not aficionado of 'greenarrays'
decimation: I'm merely reinforcing your point
mircea_popescu: "But I'm game. Give me a problem with 1,000,000 lines of C. But don't expect me to read the C, I couldn't. And don't think I'll have to write 10,000 lines of Forth. Just give me the specs of the problem, and documentation of the interface."
asciilifeform: but if anyone presently alive could fab a muller gate fpga, it is probably moore.
mircea_popescu: i'd be veri curious to see a forth implementation of eulora client.
mircea_popescu: what's his "i'm game" mean ?
mircea_popescu: (granted, an 80 yo man, i'm not serving a challenge - merely wondering)
asciilifeform: bad example
asciilifeform: has to interface with megatonnes of c-machine os crud
decimation: asciilifeform: I wish he would have made a slightly-more function version of this thing
assbot: The J1 Forth CPU — excamera ... ( )
asciilifeform: (not that one cannot do this, per se, in a forth of some description. but most of the bulk would consist of glue)
asciilifeform: decimation: aha, ditto
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for all i care he can make it work on a forth machine
mircea_popescu: i thought this forth thing works "on its own os" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he doesn't make gpu
mircea_popescu: !up n6
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i would take text based.
asciilifeform: what means 'text based' for a game with 3d figures ?
mircea_popescu: anything he wishes.
asciilifeform: a la the 'ascii starwars' ?
mircea_popescu: as long as the point is conveyed, it is conveyed.
mircea_popescu: i thought this is what forth is all about ?
mircea_popescu: "give me the specs" the man says. i have.
assbot: ASCII DOOM : Free Streaming : Internet Archive ... ( )
asciilifeform: ^ obligatory
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for all i care he can put it in narrative form on the fly.
mircea_popescu: i would pay to see this. perhaps not "enough". but still.
asciilifeform: i would pay to see eiffel tower made of dead gavins.
asciilifeform: perhaps 'not enough' though
mircea_popescu: looky.
mircea_popescu: at some point the hot talk has to be backed.
mircea_popescu: man wants a challenge, man insists it's lalala-freefoprm and whatnot. fine.
asciilifeform: moore incidentally isn't much of a talker
mircea_popescu: here's the challenge, here's the freeform.
asciilifeform: he... does.
mircea_popescu: i was using direct quotes.
decimation: "you find yourself in a maze of twist passages, all the same"
asciilifeform: his factory runs, churns out his iron, designed on his iron, runs his soft, that he wrote.
asciilifeform: ask him if he has regrets as he dies, or not.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> man wants a challenge, man insists it's lalala-freefoprm and whatnot. fine. << 1830's were worst decade in US for this reason. Mississippi River sandbars used to be ideal for this purpose. Then state lines drawn in water.
mircea_popescu: if this forth thing is so great, a program to interact with eulora server and convey the results to a human should be make-able.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha
mircea_popescu: if it isn't, something's fundamentally broken in the entire "forth anything" claims.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: good exercise for someone who isn't me
decimation: sure, it could be done
mircea_popescu: and yes, i would ghuess the whole pile as it stands atm is just about 1mn loc
asciilifeform feels distinct sense of being led into perdition
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not you in any case.
asciilifeform: plz not me
asciilifeform: but studentz!
mircea_popescu: deffo.
decimation: right now the only folks who 'can do' have 1 mn loc C++ shit driving a massive complex custom chip
mircea_popescu: anyone but you.
n6: The bot is giving me a otp for a subkey 3594E367, that I can't decrypt but its telling me Key 05D01131 is what its sending me im at a loss for how to fix this can anyone help?
asciilifeform: wake up students.
mircea_popescu: !gettrust n6
assbot: Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user n6: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | |
mircea_popescu: is your key08D9FFEA07653167CF49191B977815A105D01131 ?
assbot: ... ( )
n6: yes.
mircea_popescu: do a ! command
mircea_popescu: like !rate mircea_popescu 1 or something
mircea_popescu: so we see what it tells you
n6: !rate mircea_popescu 1 nice blog
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
mircea_popescu: gpg: encrypted with RSA key, ID 3594E367
mircea_popescu: weird.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla any idea ?
n6: Would revoking the key fix this?
BingoBoingo: No
mircea_popescu: no, don't do that.
n6: But its a subkey of the 05D01131
mircea_popescu: uh
BingoBoingo: Seriously needs to go to ButtFuckyag mines
assbot: ... ( )
mircea_popescu: so then why can't you decrypot wioth it ?
n6: I'm not sure says no prviate key, but I thought this was an encrypt only key? at a loss
asciilifeform: encrypt-only key?!!!
asciilifeform: aka 'someone else's pubkey' ?
mircea_popescu: wtf is an encrypt only key
mircea_popescu: you mean sign only ?
n6: yes.
n6: I have the private key for the main ID 05D01131 but not 3594E367
mircea_popescu: how did you end up with a pubkey-only key ?!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39950 @ 0.00053096 = 21.2119 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: and whyt do you imagien you can revoke a key if you don't have its privkey
n6: I'm not sure.
asciilifeform: calling mr babbage!
decimation: lulz
asciilifeform: '...I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.'
mircea_popescu: n6 so do you know how it ended up there then ?
n6: No.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4738 @ 0.0005438 = 2.5765 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose one day sks servers list a random key for you too ?
BingoBoingo: Fuck I am not drunk enough for this shit.
mircea_popescu: anyway i think assbot should always use the main not some random subkey
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i entirely expect they will
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and you, and you
mircea_popescu: well so then.
n6: Where do I go from here?
mircea_popescu: n6 gotta wait for kako to come on and see wtf.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44700 @ 0.00053158 = 23.7616 BTC [-] {6}
mircea_popescu: but needless to say this is not a normal state for your key.
BingoBoingo: Can't even pretend to ISIS
assbot: Police: Suspect reported dead at Nashville area theater - WSMV Channel 4 ... ( )
trinque: airsoft gun lol
trinque: "you'll shoot your eye out!"
decimation: how is it possible for someone else to add a subkey? isn't it signed by the main key?
n6: Should have been more careful with my keys this seems like user error on my end rather then somehting wrong with the bot. Why can't I just revoke the subkey with the sec key from the main key?
decimation: because the sks server will keep your revoked key forever
decimation: I'm not sure which one assbot will pick to auth
asciilifeform: 'The Global Mall, which is located next to the theater, was placed on lock down during the active shooter situation. The Ford Ice Center was also placed on lock down and remained closed for the rest of the day.'
asciilifeform: ^ 'lockdown' is originally an american prison term
asciilifeform: and means precisely same thing
decimation: heh yeah that's a good point
decimation: the media often uses phrases like that
asciilifeform: not a mediatron phrase
decimation: wtf does it mean to have a mall on 'lockdown'?
decimation: like, don't leave so you can be shot too?
asciilifeform: actually used in Official communications
asciilifeform: aha, precisely
trinque: probably shutting all the gates for the stores
asciilifeform: nobody in, nobody out.
asciilifeform: ~nobody out~
asciilifeform: btw this is also done when a lizard (or lizard fellator) is passing through town
trinque: we had "lockdown" in my shitty Florida middle school
asciilifeform: e.g., restaurants in dc
trinque: for brawls, weapon situations, etc
asciilifeform: won't let patrons in ~or out~ when bushamamobile
asciilifeform: or when cheney/biden is eating
asciilifeform: across the street
trinque: as a child with books in his home I remember being quite surprised that this was a thing
asciilifeform: which this
trinque: being bussed to a school full of black kids eating each other, more or less
asciilifeform: ah
asciilifeform: been in one too
decimation: as a kid in the early 90's I don't remember this being a thing
decimation: lockdowns
asciilifeform: no lockdowns though
trinque: depends on the gang situation in your town
asciilifeform: these were introduced after the columbine incident
trinque: orcs at this school were fully grown in terms of their fucking, fighting and stealing capacity
asciilifeform: i did attend a school which as a result of the latter forbade... backpacks.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37000 @ 0.00055892 = 20.68 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: << linked from same birdcage liner as earlier
assbot: Backfire or Gunfire? Authorities continue to piece together inve - WSMV Channel 4 ... ( )
asciilifeform: likewise lulzy
asciilifeform: 'The investigation is ongoing and there is no confirmation as to whether the incident involved was a shooting at all.'
asciilifeform: ^^^ ! ^^^
decimation: actually why should it be surprising in schools? same wards of the state as the gulag
asciilifeform: it isn't surprising. school and prison similarity is a painfully well-documented thing.
asciilifeform: (see john gatto etc.)
trinque: asciilifeform: the highschool in my hometown was designed by a prison architect
trinque: (I went to another due to a magnet program)
trinque: but the thing was intended to have "no corners to hide in"
asciilifeform: sop
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54783 @ 0.00055892 = 30.6193 BTC [+]
trinque: at any rate, I never suffered under the delusion that the folks around me were any measure of sane
trinque bbl

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