Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2015-07-10 | 2015-07-12 →
decimation: luke-jr?
mircea_popescu: yes luke-jr
mircea_popescu: an entire den of fraudsters and con men they got going there, not like phantomcircuit's anyone else than the bitcoinica thief etc.
mircea_popescu: " As Wal-Mart gets the lion’s share of food stamp transfers [EBT cash and food] than this operation amounts to a 19th century Appalachian coal mine with its own company store, with over half of the employees spending most—or even more than—their salary at the Wal-Mart register, literally a captive market and labor force in one."
mircea_popescu: this is actually an excellent point - walmart is not a shop, it's a shit circuit.
decimation: it's been well covered in the us media that walmart 'arbitrages' usg benefits/slaves into profit
decimation: mr. lafound makes a novel point (to me) that the rich folk (think jwz) are equally complict, thinking that saving $0.25 on eggs at walmart is purely neutral
mircea_popescu: i dun think this is much of a novel point. fundamental point. "be the change you wish to see" etc.
hanbot: people are going to be sucked into convenience > quality (sanity) so long as they can't appreciate what quality is. i had a visitor in romania who had never seen good egg yolks, thought they were "suspicious"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52300 @ 0.00053341 = 27.8973 BTC [+]
decimation: in the us, to be against 'walmart profits' is to be labeled a socialist. it's rarely the case that someone points out the degree to which walmart profits are dependent on socialism themselves
hanbot: right, because why proclaim something that might lead to having to do more work
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64423 @ 0.00051817 = 33.3821 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51409 @ 0.00052203 = 26.837 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9647 @ 0.00052634 = 5.0776 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47000 @ 0.00051761 = 24.3277 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63700 @ 0.00051072 = 32.5329 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43819 @ 0.00051202 = 22.4362 BTC [+]
Naphex: 04:14 <+hanbot> people are going to be sucked into convenience > quality (sanity) so long as they can't appreciate what quality is. i had a visitor in romania who had never seen good egg yolks, thought they were "suspicious <- Happens pretty often
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68550 @ 0.00051063 = 35.0037 BTC [-]
punkman: how do you decide a good egg yolk?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27092 @ 0.00051063 = 13.834 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31350 @ 0.00050955 = 15.9744 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56194 @ 0.00051202 = 28.7725 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51100 @ 0.00051159 = 26.1422 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36402 @ 0.00051292 = 18.6713 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31600 @ 0.00051618 = 16.3113 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37214 @ 0.00050521 = 18.8009 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56500 @ 0.00050406 = 28.4794 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37300 @ 0.00051621 = 19.2546 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: punkman: it has vivid yellow color
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42900 @ 0.00052065 = 22.3359 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: and when used as ingredients, it colors the dough or whatever, too
punkman: jurov, people like the darker orange yolks here
punkman: yellow yolk means it's probably eating corn
jurov: they can be orange, too, no prob... just the color is weak
cazalla: whites not runny either!
jurov: yolk racism?
punkman: I mostly care about whether the owner of the chickens is in wot rather than colour
jurov: oh, if you scarcely have eggs from supermarket, then it's hard to explain, either :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37850 @ 0.00052629 = 19.9201 BTC [+] {2}
cazalla: miss my chickens, rip in peace gonna get some new ones in the spring
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17050 @ 0.00050847 = 8.6694 BTC [-]
jurov: cazalla what happened to them?
cazalla: fox
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70550 @ 0.00050847 = 35.8726 BTC [-]
cazalla: or inattentive chicken shepherd
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 212391 @ 0.0005306 = 112.6947 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22280 @ 0.00050398 = 11.2287 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: People In Toronto Made Memorial For Dead Raccoon After City Forgot To Pick It Up For 12 Hrs | Bored Panda ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87400 @ 0.00050268 = 43.9342 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: New Letters Added to the Genetic Alphabet | Quanta Magazine ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32350 @ 0.00051275 = 16.5875 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19289 @ 0.00051275 = 9.8904 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29320 @ 0.00051536 = 15.1104 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2450 @ 0.00053341 = 1.3069 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57700 @ 0.00053341 = 30.7778 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43650 @ 0.00053303 = 23.2668 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46032 @ 0.00053391 = 24.5769 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: policy | ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60900 @ 0.00053489 = 32.5748 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101148 @ 0.00052037 = 52.6344 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9835 @ 0.00049302 = 4.8489 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22600 @ 0.00053665 = 12.1283 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64550 @ 0.00053665 = 34.6408 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: Andreas Heimann
kakobrekla: @ACHeimann
kakobrekla: ist Journalist in Berlin, leitet den dpa-Themendienst und twittert hier privat vor allem zu Medienthemen.
kakobrekla: imma guess
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97850 @ 0.00053673 = 52.519 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39500 @ 0.00050946 = 20.1237 BTC [-] {2}
mats: heh, former US AG Holder went back to Covington & Burling
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71700 @ 0.00053741 = 38.5323 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16900 @ 0.00053765 = 9.0863 BTC [+]
assbot: It's ok folks, let's regroup : litecoin ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35008 @ 0.00053765 = 18.8221 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37000 @ 0.00053765 = 19.8931 BTC [+]
funkenstein_: "Benner has lofty goals for his synthetic molecules. He wants to create an alternative genetic system in which proteins [] are unnecessary" <-- ??
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38450 @ 0.00052014 = 19.9994 BTC [-] {2}
funkenstein_ ponders total silence surrounding continued phuctoring
funkenstein_: <-- this is a good start but version numbers should also include P and Z
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 02:19:10; Luke-Jr: decimation: this may be of interested to you; it is a WIP
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31150 @ 0.00051235 = 15.9597 BTC [-] {3}
funkenstein_: !up SuchWow
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51500 @ 0.00052153 = 26.8588 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40510 @ 0.00053765 = 21.7802 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35200 @ 0.00053765 = 18.9253 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47200 @ 0.00053788 = 25.3879 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 116600 @ 0.00054029 = 62.9978 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31800 @ 0.00054156 = 17.2216 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13358 @ 0.00054156 = 7.2342 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32500 @ 0.00053443 = 17.369 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27700 @ 0.00054156 = 15.0012 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51750 @ 0.00054225 = 28.0614 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26132 @ 0.00054229 = 14.1711 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34968 @ 0.00054229 = 18.9628 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28151 @ 0.00052827 = 14.8713 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 123000 @ 0.00050419 = 62.0154 BTC [-] {5}
mircea_popescu: ;;seen diametric
gribble: diametric was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 weeks, 1 day, 20 hours, 49 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <diametric> possible to get a sample capture?
mircea_popescu: diametric you're getting ddos'd again, and apparently it's ever more impressive. you want a filter in front of this thing or what.
mircea_popescu: which reminds me, shinohai you ever got email ?
shinohai: nope never got another email :/
shinohai: plus i only have one good wallet and it broke, so i am 34 weeks behind xD
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 00:37:04; gernika: "Ellen Pao, the interim chief executive officer of Reddit, will be succeeded by Steve Huffman." << Met this guy (Steve Huffman) years ago at a YC startup school event. Had a brief discussion with him about lisp (don't recall the dialect he used).
mircea_popescu: in any case reddit's a chapter right out of the lolbook of failmanagement, you get an interim ceo to ease the transition to... one of the old founders ? that board is so stupid it can sit with the worst of 'em, and so on.
assbot: Cel mai prost Board din istorie on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
gernika: mircea_popescu no he seemed to make eye-contact, connect, etc. Aaron Schwartz, who I met at a similar such party (possibly even the same one) struck me as being much more of an autist.
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell bingoboingo for your qind qntsideration :
gribble: The operation succeeded.
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell cazalla and yours !
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: lol you got one for each ?
pete_dushenski: lol no ?
pete_dushenski: same article, encrypted to each of their keys
pete_dushenski: usual protocol
mircea_popescu: you knoiw you can just do gpg --encrypt --armor -r one -r theother righjt ?
pete_dushenski: this is true.
pete_dushenski: dunno why i'm in the habit of giving them each one.
pete_dushenski: presents are moar speshul when they're just for you !
mircea_popescu: and in other news : eulora is currently being practically re-written, because fucking idiots and their fucktarded assumptions. "oh, nobody could POSSIBLY ever want an int other than ~16!!!!~ bit". as a result, the skill display in game behaves eratically. as a result, all places that use ints and were apparently not upgraded to 32 bit because too much fucking work are now getting redefined as 64 bits.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42200 @ 0.00050081 = 21.1342 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: because it's apparently still 1959 and nobody came up with a "machine length" int yet.
pete_dushenski: eulora thrills > mpoe thrills eh
pete_dushenski: no one rewriting mpoe anytime soon
pete_dushenski: so eta on new eulora ?
mircea_popescu: it's sitll going as it is, just the experience filling bar of skills is fucked up
mircea_popescu: minor visual glitch
pete_dushenski: ah cool beans
pete_dushenski: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 293.45, Best ask: 293.49, Bid-ask spread: 0.04000, Last trade: 293.49, 24 hour volume: 55886.98510595, 24 hour low: 282.7, 24 hour high: 299.56, 24 hour vwap: None
pete_dushenski: *that* close to 300
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00051186 = 15.3558 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14049 @ 0.00051186 = 7.1911 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2175 @ 0.00052321 = 1.138 BTC [+]
pete_dushenski: !up ascii_modem
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 16:22:48; mircea_popescu: because it's apparently still 1959 and nobody came up with a "machine length" int yet.
ascii_modem: long int
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69550 @ 0.00051124 = 35.5567 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14527 @ 0.00050133 = 7.2828 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23541 @ 0.00049944 = 11.7573 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52650 @ 0.00051577 = 27.1553 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31925 @ 0.00051614 = 16.4778 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52845 @ 0.00051204 = 27.0588 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11924 @ 0.00051141 = 6.0981 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67850 @ 0.00050823 = 34.4834 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51750 @ 0.00050435 = 26.1001 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38461 @ 0.00051887 = 19.9563 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 110500 @ 0.0005224 = 57.7252 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20500 @ 0.00051176 = 10.4911 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24850 @ 0.00051176 = 12.7172 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64606 @ 0.0005236 = 33.8277 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2394 @ 0.0005365 = 1.2844 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50264 @ 0.00053656 = 26.9697 BTC [+] {2}
punkman: heh "Finnish media reports that Germany, Holland, Finland, Estonia, Lithuania, Slovakia and Slovenia want "temporary" #Grexit"
danielpbarron: << 1 Corinthians 7:8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; 9 but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
assbot: Logged on 10-07-2015 19:33:32; mircea_popescu: ascii_field i still have no idea why anyone'd get married, but then again i'm weird like that.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21800 @ 0.00053657 = 11.6972 BTC [+]
danielpbarron: << leg is different from boobs because child born of the former can still be expected to look similar to parents while child of latter may not
assbot: Logged on 10-07-2015 19:37:48; mircea_popescu: and especially nonsensical given that there's an exactly just as silly, but opposite direction social convention : people going around with a prosthetic leg are apparently GREAT!11
danielpbarron: ;;isitup
gribble: Error: "isitup" is not a valid command.
danielpbarron: ;;isdown
gribble: Error: "isdown" is not a valid command.
danielpbarron: ;;isup
gribble: is down
jurov: danielpbarron: did jesus set a limit for # of wives?
danielpbarron: no, but we know from Solomon that there is an upward bound that isn't specified
danielpbarron: !s Jian Feng
jurov: solomon, the first C programmer
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8650 @ 0.00053657 = 4.6413 BTC [+]
danielpbarron: Deuteronomy 17:16 But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the Lord has said to you, 'You shall not return that way again.' 17 Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.
danielpbarron: >> As for a king who breached Deuteronomy 17:17, Solomon is the classic example. He had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:3). Yet, even though Solomon obviously multiplied wives to himself, the Lord condemns Solomon, in particular, for his marriage of foreign women (1 Kings 11:1-2; Deuteronomy 7:1-4) and the resultant idolatry (1 Kings 11:4).
assbot: A True Church - Polygamy ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8523 @ 0.00052006 = 4.4325 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12800 @ 0.00053657 = 6.8681 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37300 @ 0.00053657 = 20.0141 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16659 @ 0.000536 = 8.9292 BTC [-]
trinque: am I noticing that the price of mpex trends upward before the price of bitcoin does?
trinque: I'd like to see that graph
trinque goes to check out btcalpha
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13341 @ 0.00052006 = 6.9381 BTC [-]
mats: dun think there's any correlation
trinque: maybe not
trinque: gabriel_laddel: got a recommendation on something that'll bust out docs for *any* symbol?
trinque: I want hyperspec.el for errethang
cazalla: <<< does not appear he will ban /r/coontown meanwhile coontown banned me from their irc channel
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 16:02:30; mircea_popescu: << is he a bit of an autist ?
assbot: airwx comments on I am Steve Huffman, the new CEO of reddit. AMA. ... ( )
trinque: maybe just getting eldoc to barf out the docstring for the thing at point would suffice
gabriel_laddel: trinque: M-x slime-describe-symbol
trinque: yeah, I basically want that guy jammed into eldoc
gabriel_laddel: trinque: do you know elisp?
trinque: I can fart around in it
gabriel_laddel: trinque: alright, gimme a minute and I'll write it for ya
trinque: cool!
gabriel_laddel: ftr, no one should have to learn elisp. it is a shit language.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29100 @ 0.00052345 = 15.2324 BTC [+]
gabriel_laddel: trinque: wait, is this for CL or elisp
trinque: but both sure
gabriel_laddel: well, doing both is sorta a PITA, so I'll prolly decline that
trinque: heh, np
trinque: don't even have to do the former unless you want to
gabriel_laddel: but there already exists a printer for the value of the symbol at point
gabriel_laddel: so I just have to find that, modify the format string
trinque: I'll take all the CL prosthetics I can get
gabriel_laddel: trinque: have you been using the CLIM listener in your CL hacking?
trinque: I haven't really, other than with the intent to learn about CLIM
trinque: current thing I'm hacking on is that api server guy
trinque: I'm open to hearing how I'd use CLIM there
gabriel_laddel: I can't speak to that, but using the class browser is a great boon to CL development.
gabriel_laddel: I ended up binding it to f8, as was tired of pulling it up all the time.
trinque: ah ok; yeah, paging through the hyperspec is my current method of discovering new functions to use
trinque: I'll try your suggestion there
gabriel_laddel: trinque: try `apropos' and note that you can display all generic functions for a class using the left click.
phf: gabriel_laddel: have you been using mcclim for day to day hacking? last time i tried it, it was very slow. but then it was on a ppc machine, so maybe moore's law took care of that
gabriel_laddel: phf: My dashboard (which I use every day) is CLIM. I edit text in CLIMACS from time to time, use the listener to browse classes.
gabriel_laddel: earlier I started to modify the address book to handle my rolodex
gabriel_laddel: also, I'm using it at work
phf: hmm, might be worth giving it a try then. i wrote some code with clim a while back, but that was using lispworks
gabriel_laddel: phf: the whole "backends" thing (which lispworks uses) is retarded.
gabriel_laddel: the only way to go is all lisp
gabriel_laddel: CLX+stumpwm+CLIM
gabriel_laddel: perhaps someone will take the time to hack the "zen" X server into this stack
trinque: I'll be fine seeing someone stick a chisel in the ear of emacs, breaking it into the several pieces it should've been
phf: lispworks clim is a life support for legacy systems, and as such their technical decisions have merit
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31586 @ 0.00051847 = 16.3764 BTC [-] {2}
trinque: gabriel_laddel: seems the further down the stack lisp might reach, the more the argument that it should be coming from the bottom up applies
gabriel_laddel: trinque: sure.
gabriel_laddel: phf: yeah, sure. but being a hospice cog isn't fun
gabriel_laddel: trinque: fundamentally the only way I see this happening is by getting a great prince to "see" why it is one would like such a thing.
gabriel_laddel: hence, I'm pushing for lispy demos everywhere
gabriel_laddel: so they go back to windows and rage
trinque: gabriel_laddel: indeed, I "see what you did there" so to speak
gabriel_laddel: I'd never phrase it like that, but sure.
gabriel_laddel: MP is on the verge of understanding.
trinque: well more specifically
trinque: I wouldn't even be bothering now if I hadn't used emacs for years prior
trinque: I compared masamune to emacs somewhere in teh logz
gabriel_laddel: I'm not really sure what you're getting at?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37150 @ 0.0005033 = 18.6976 BTC [-]
gabriel_laddel: I saw that.
trinque: emacs is what a guy whose seen a lisp machine builds on unix
trinque: with the pragmatism dial set somewhere middling
gabriel_laddel: Emacs is Stallman hating the lisp machine. Pragmatic my arse.
trinque: gabriel_laddel: dunno if my point is coming across.
gabriel_laddel: not at all
gabriel_laddel: Spending a year learning elisp, and then a year unlearning it because it's a dead end isn't pragmatic at all.
gabriel_laddel: fucking stallman
trinque: I use pragmatic as a dirty word
gabriel_laddel: should have just used CL
gabriel_laddel: trinque: I'm still not sure what you're getting at...
trinque: emacs is the closest thing I as a derp coming into the industry in 2006 would ever find which somewhat resembled the experience that was possible *before I was goddamn born*
trinque: *dev experience
gabriel_laddel: hrm.. I'll drop something in the logs about forwards compatibility sometime.
trinque: I'm trying to say something about acts of desperation around preserving a dying (better) culture in the midst of an insane one.
trinque: coming up short atm, and gotta run
trinque: obviously I want stan's fucking c-gate flowputer if it would mean I can actually reason about the machine's behavior
trinque: barring that... sbcl on unix? or some other compromise?
trinque: if you'd cracked warp drives, yet were surrounded by imbeciles that couldn't use the knowledge if they tried, maybe you might try to stash the knowledge in some corner of the world where it may re-emerge later
trinque: *from which it
trinque: bbl
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41500 @ 0.0005033 = 20.887 BTC [-]
gabriel_laddel: !rated mjr_
assbot: mjr_ is not registered in WoT.
phf: gabriel_laddel: have you seen, nyef is making a new clim version, i think i read something about framebuffer backend
assbot: abridgewater/nq-clim · GitHub ... ( )
gabriel_laddel: phf: I had not seen this, thanks.
gabriel_laddel: Though I wish everyone would *stop it* with making new CLIM, CLIMACS etc. and just make what we have work.
gabriel_laddel mumbles "forwards compatibility!"
phf: yeah yeah, but it's cockroaches all the way down. anyone sane who's attempted ends up like asciilifeform, rejecting von neumann architecture, and ultimately giving up
gabriel_laddel: I was going to put this off until later - but whatever.
gabriel_laddel: Look, there is no reason we can't take SBCL and incrementally modify it to work on a loper device
gabriel_laddel: People keep bitching about "all the things wrong with common lisp" while completely ignoring that you can meaningfully upgrade the language without throwing away all the work that has been done over the years.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63638 @ 0.00051164 = 32.5597 BTC [+] {2}
gabriel_laddel: For example, say that you find the existence of both elt & nth to be stupid. write a (meta)program that walks an arbitrary CL program and fixes all elt's to nths. Let everyone know that it's deprecated, and that they can run this program on their code to update it to CL 1.2 or whatever.
gabriel_laddel: the compiler can then be modified to take this into account.
gabriel_laddel: I, for example, dislike having both defstruct and defclass in the language.
gabriel_laddel: Am currently waiting for an intern to fix this.
gabriel_laddel: Over the course of a few years we can work the language down to something much smaller without at any point making it unsuitable for production work.
gabriel_laddel: Even with a Loper device you'll still have programs composed of the same primitives: draw-circle*, draw-sphere*
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 108852 @ 0.00002602 = 2.8323 BTC [-] {14}
gabriel_laddel: Work CL down to the core language and then when you get something new to play with you can build up that core and run (some) 'CL' programs on it.
gabriel_laddel: These metaprograms are great tasks for interns, especially those who don't "get lisp" yet.
phf: i'm not one of those people you're arguing against, i like cl standard just fine. i did paid common lisp consulting on and off for the past 10 years.
gabriel_laddel: phf: o cool
gabriel_laddel: phf: also, I think the loper device will end up being designed on top of CLIM.
gabriel_laddel: there are not really any other options
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28050 @ 0.00051604 = 14.4749 BTC [+]
gabriel_laddel: !up ascii_modem
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 22:43:42; gabriel_laddel: For example, say that you find the existence of both elt & nth to be stupid. write a (meta)program that walks an arbitrary CL program and fixes all elt's to nths. Let everyone know that it's deprecated, and that they can run this program on their code to update it to CL 1.2 or whatever.
gabriel_laddel: ascii_modem: there is a scheme which didn't throw away the CL compiler and start from scratch?
ascii_modem: which compiler
gabriel_laddel: If *any* of them did this, for any compiler, I'd be rather surprised.
ascii_modem: sbcl, ccl, allegro, lispworks - each had own
ascii_modem: basic boojum with ~all~ lisps on x86 - is same
gabriel_laddel: sbcl, ccl, allegro, lispworks - each had own << You can still take portable CL programs and run the upgrade program on them without forcing compiler changes.
ascii_modem: the retarded os, in turn forced into being by retarded hw
gabriel_laddel: I know, I know.
phf: i think "minimal set of common lisp primitives" is a common theme on #lisp, not surprisingly with different answers every time
gabriel_laddel: phf: no one has done so much as even drafting a document specifying what is to be removed.
ascii_modem: you won't appreciate the full weight of this until you try to do something with, e.g., graphics, or signal process
gabriel_laddel: I read the relevent cliki page.
gabriel_laddel has a document collecting these links, ideas
gabriel_laddel: ascii_modem: like what with graphics?
gabriel_laddel: ascii_modem: I am currently using CLIM, opengl
ascii_modem: rearranging 'elt' and 'nth' ~~ 'deck chairs on titanic'
gabriel_laddel: defstruct and defclass?
ascii_modem: fuck opengl. i want peter henderson's sexpr graphics
ascii_modem: fuck wrapping abstractions around gpu ops
ascii_modem: fuck 2 machines showing 2 different bitmaps from same graphics op
ascii_modem: pc - retarded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27750 @ 0.00052345 = 14.5257 BTC [+]
ascii_modem: << cl on pc only really became tolerably livable with in late '90s
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 22:11:04; gabriel_laddel: should have just used CL
phf: gabriel_laddel: that's because "removing" is not a particularly worthwhile activity in this case
gabriel_laddel: phf: then wtf is everyone discussing on #lisp?
phf: gabriel_laddel: intellectual exercise :)
ascii_modem: all of these turd polishings are 20+ years of wank by now,
phf: in practical terms, common lisp quirks are direct result of underlying machine level architecture
gabriel_laddel: I suppose masturbation counts as exercise.
ascii_modem: and distract from the fact that the ~machine~ is terminally retarded
gabriel_laddel: ascii_modem: dija read the part where I specified the reason for this is to impress a prince?
ascii_modem: if i were prince - i'd spit
phf: at some point i assume it wasn't retarded, more like "what can i do with these resistors and a soldering iron", became retarded later
phf: because technology change, but thinking basically remained the same
gabriel_laddel: ascii_modem: notice that you're not a prince.
ascii_modem: notice - princes - they spit
ascii_modem: and i know why.
ascii_modem: go ask'em
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: explain please.
gabriel_laddel: trinque: yeah, so fyi there is no obvious way to add the docstring to eldoc
gabriel_laddel: trinque: takes too much work. I give up.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89858 @ 0.00051034 = 45.8581 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12650 @ 0.00051684 = 6.538 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4100 @ 0.0005033 = 2.0635 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15098 @ 0.00050439 = 7.6153 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56311 @ 0.00051286 = 28.8797 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9089 @ 0.00052105 = 4.7358 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 22:07:49; gabriel_laddel: MP is on the verge of understanding.
assbot: Logged on 23-05-2015 07:11:21; mircea_popescu: seems the sort of meta-prograsmming task for which lisp was invented anyway. keep your code as a s-expr of the code you deliver.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 116011 @ 0.00052225 = 60.5867 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43175 @ 0.00053951 = 23.2933 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27225 @ 0.00054233 = 14.7649 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46937 @ 0.00053472 = 25.0982 BTC [-]
assbot: top breech - YouTube ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18927 @ 0.00053472 = 10.1206 BTC [-]
shinohai: lolz
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93550 @ 0.00051902 = 48.5543 BTC [-]
trinque: gabriel_laddel | trinque: yeah, so fyi there is no obvious way to add the docstring to eldoc << thanks for the crack at it
trinque: might be easier for me to forget about eldoc and try writing what I actually want from scratch
gabriel_laddel: trinque: well, you could do that, but it will interact with eldoc and slime-autodoc
gabriel_laddel: which are on idle timers
trinque: yes that might be the right way; I'm not in a position where I feel I know the best way yet.
gabriel_laddel: lol, idle timers are the ONLY way to do that
trinque: I want two things, at any point I want to know what I have available to me in the context I'm in
trinque: I want to have that broken apart into sensible categories of action, a tree structure of sorts from the current point outward to wherever else I might go
gabriel_laddel: :/ I know. Climacs is the inevitable conclusion. Doing the elisp dance around the cl package system just isn't fun.
gabriel_laddel: and eldoc is integrated into elisp
trinque: yeah you already know two
gabriel_laddel: polluting it.
trinque: gimme the same thing for *THIS* I've chosen
trinque: the docs for it, and a way to traverse to related things I might want to use instead
gabriel_laddel: Generic functions for this class, sorted by if they're implemented yet, things that have been passed this type in the past...
trinque: certainly
trinque: what does the whole goddamn world look like from this point
trinque: I am a very visual/spatial thinker
trinque: and only grow proficient in a domain when I have a sort of physical model of the space
gabriel_laddel: how the fuck did you ever get good at python
gabriel_laddel: related: I want to be able to inspect an object, mark it, then jump around through a bunch of other objects and hit a key to get a sexpr representing the accessor corresponding to my traversal.
trinque: gabriel_laddel | how the fuck did you ever get good at python << by forcing myself to work through it
trinque: eventually acquiring the mental picture of python's insane world
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15387 @ 0.00053591 = 8.246 BTC [+]
trinque: and tbh I write python in a functional style over mostly primitive types
trinque: I am a simpleton.
trinque: gabriel_laddel: that example of taking action *once* and being able to turn that sort of "recorded" action into an abstraction, exactly fucking right
gabriel_laddel: Even if the indicies are hardcoded... still useful.
trinque: our merry band of madmen got things such as these done once upon a time by representing the ASTs of SQL queries as table structures in postresql
gabriel_laddel: madmen indeed
trinque: that was where I accidentally bumped into the power of a homoiconic language
trinque: because we... lol... forced SQL to behave like one
assbot: Printing package-qualified symbols ... ( )
trinque: model ebnf as tables -> describe some particular grammar in those tables -> derive schema for statements in that grammar -> derive parser for farting ASTs into tables -> so on so on
trinque: it's just everything is data, including that which is used to model and manipulate the data
trinque: lisp did it far far better
trinque: incidentally we had the ebnf one bootstrapped such that it contained the description of its own structure
trinque: and could revise it from there
trinque: transactionally even
trinque: and that was super powerful as well, and I don't know how to get that on the CL side
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46471 @ 0.00053591 = 24.9043 BTC [+]
gabriel_laddel: what, transactions?
gabriel_laddel: why would you want to revise sexprs?
trinque: yeah, I want to go insane in an arbitrary direction changing some data structure, then decide nope arbitrarily later
trinque: or even better, have it fail some constraint and do so
trinque: or in other words... "database"
gabriel_laddel: yeah, I wish you the best of luck on that quest. It is straightforwards, but ugh.
trinque: I would have to describe better how I've leaned on there being a declared schema which is also data
gabriel_laddel: defclass, plists, alists
trinque: for example an inner join between the schema-describing-tables and the rows describing the grammar was how I wrote a generic to-string for any language in the ebnf tables
gabriel_laddel: fucking ayy man
gabriel_laddel: I hope you don't take offense to this but...
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: this is what I mean by "we need people to carry the water"
gabriel_laddel: seriously, redirecting a trinque at CL would make the development 100x better.
gabriel_laddel: *the development experience
trinque: if you mean somebody should've kicked my ass ten years ago for not writing CL, I agree.
gabriel_laddel: I mean that someone should have paid for you to write CL, preferable packaging it up as an unchanging distro supporting only a subset of hardware.
trinque: so, here's what I do in real life, right?
trinque: I model people's businesses using a database
trinque: so to the extent that you put a better tool in my hands to do that, I'll only be appreciative.
trinque: s/appreciative/paying you/
trinque: I'm not personally out to revolutionize computing by focusing all my time on that as such
trinque: make sense?
gabriel_laddel: Yep. This is what I'm trying to get ascii to see.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 127628 @ 0.00051856 = 66.1828 BTC [-] {2}
trinque: model a business, describe business rules which constrain the changes possible to the model, present the state of the model in various useful ways, attach behavior to changes permitted by the model
trinque: this is every goddamn application I've ever sold
trinque: and a tool which allows me to rapidly do that will drastically increase the rate of said selling
trinque: and you could stack corpses to the sky replacing products which were specific incarnations of such a database, rather than attacking the general problem described above.
trinque: and then when you've got fat stacks from all the killing you've been doing, hell, build some hardware why don't you?
trinque: this I think hits the problem of "the sale wants their particular problem solved head on" vs "to be a successful software business I must generalize" squarely
gabriel_laddel: !s dawg just make the cardano already so we can sell em
gabriel_laddel: kakobrekla: search is down?
phf: were you guys trying to put symbol documentation into slime-autodoc results? that seems pretty easy, just patch whatever swank:autodoc returns. though seems like it would be distracting since multiline docs will keep resizing modeline every time your point is at a new function
phf: there's also C-c C-d d which brings up a window with symbol's description
gabriel_laddel: phf: C-c C-d d << M-x slime-describe-symbol
trinque: bbl
phf: gabriel_laddel: i'm not sure what you're trying to say
gabriel_laddel: phf: Nothing interesting. Twas already covered in the logs...
phf: gabriel_laddel: oh you're right, i'm behind on my readin'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 133450 @ 0.00053473 = 71.3597 BTC [+]
gabriel_laddel: !up trixbutt
gabriel_laddel: !up cosmo
gernika: I attended a lisp meetup in SV today at which someone presented their altcoin which happened to be written in CL. This altcoin exists apparently because bitcoin too "too slow."
gabriel_laddel: gernika: odd.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107415 @ 0.00054072 = 58.0814 BTC [+] {2}
gabriel_laddel: gernika: you live in the valley?
gernika: Close to there. I'm more on the peninsula.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17585 @ 0.00054623 = 9.6055 BTC [+]
phf: trinque, gabriel_laddel
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
assbot: Logged on 12-07-2015 02:36:59; phf: trinque, gabriel_laddel
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81275 @ 0.0005413 = 43.9942 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: !up trixbutt
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39844 @ 0.00052301 = 20.8388 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform << don't you find it a little odd that even on an obscure liuttle game such as eulora, someone does find the time to carefully probe me about aes ?
assbot: MiniGame (S.MG), August 2014 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo cazalla << whatever have you two done.
assbot: Traffic and Demographic Statistics by Quantcast ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42181 @ 0.00052301 = 22.0611 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Seems to be traction from the transaction fees article
mircea_popescu: it's like, almost february all over again.
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 06:06:44; Naphex: 04:14 <+hanbot> people are going to be sucked into convenience > quality (sanity) so long as they can't appreciate what quality is. i had a visitor in romania who had never seen good egg yolks, thought they were "suspicious <- Happens pretty often
mircea_popescu: << haha well that fox had a good meal for surer
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 08:13:46; cazalla: or inattentive chicken shepherd
hanbot: good sort of yellow tho'. of course, how would you know if you hadn't had good eggs /turmeric/etc
mircea_popescu: "waiter, i ordered soffran rice and what the fuck is this yellow poison looking shit!"
mircea_popescu: << anything but a science that renders journos unnecessary!
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 12:45:57; funkenstein_: "Benner has lofty goals for his synthetic molecules. He wants to create an alternative genetic system in which proteins [] are unnecessary" <-- ??
mircea_popescu: "At the time of posting this LTC is at $4.25, where as when I went to bed last night it was at $8.80. " << wasn't some twerp going on about how ltc has more volume than btc or some shit ?
mircea_popescu: well done, whoever.
mircea_popescu: !up phillipsjk
phillipsjk: I really should auth with the bot with pgp though.
mircea_popescu: so go ahead.
assbot: Jonas Borchgrevink, Author at CCN: Financial Bitcoin & Cryptocurrency News ... ( )
mircea_popescu: << i don't follow. how's the daugther of boob implant woman not able to look the same as mom ?
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 20:19:34; danielpbarron: << leg is different from boobs because child born of the former can still be expected to look similar to parents while child of latter may not
hanbot: mircea_popescu i think the point is able!=expected
BingoBoingo: cazalla: Scam bio
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 90053 @ 0.00054288 = 48.888 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel btw, you use emacs ?
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: yeah
mircea_popescu: an' you hate it basically ?
phillipsjk: I am not sure I can auth with assbot. to verify I need to decrypt a OTP, but I need a rating of 2 for the !up command to challenge me with one.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: yep.
mircea_popescu: phillipsjk no you don't ? you just pm assbot !up
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel well there goes that idea.
gabriel_laddel: eurlora client?
phillipsjk: assbot says: "You need a better WoT rating for self-up. (level 2 with assbot >0)"
mircea_popescu: << this is basically how the libc hack of template files works eh.
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 22:43:42; gabriel_laddel: For example, say that you find the existence of both elt & nth to be stupid. write a (meta)program that walks an arbitrary CL program and fixes all elt's to nths. Let everyone know that it's deprecated, and that they can run this program on their code to update it to CL 1.2 or whatever.
mircea_popescu: !gettrust assbot phillipsjk
assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user phillipsjk: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 2 connections. | |
mircea_popescu: phillipsjk apparently you can't actually self-voice.
phillipsjk: Can I auth with the bot without voicing?
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: the problem with templates is that generating syntatically correct code is fucking impossible.
mircea_popescu: in any case : i don't like aes for purely political reasons. it became an apparent schelling point out of absolutely nowhere for no discernible reason. these situations always stink.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel i think the principle of machine-fixed code is broken, but hey. maybe you're in a narrow enough case you can pull it off.
mircea_popescu: if you can actually write programs to fix programs - why haven't you yet and why are we still running broken code everywhere.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: because I'm lazy?
gabriel_laddel: I need interns
mircea_popescu: that process works better the other way. ("i need to intern for this guy" vs "i need people to intern for me")
gabriel_laddel: I want to move *up* the ladder of abstraction. Purely mechanical lisping doesn't interest me.
phillipsjk: Anyway, I screwed up with my AES comment: naivly encrypting game commands with a fixed key will give you the same cipher text given the same input. Chipher modes are not my field of expertise though.
gabriel_laddel: Even if what I'm suggesting for interns is state of the art for some people.
gabriel_laddel: I could go to africa (or stanford) if I wanted to be "considered intelligent"
mircea_popescu: phillipsjk i've not put much design effort into that yet at any rate.
mircea_popescu: << having been more or less peripherally aware of gfx software the past coupla decades, i gotta tell you opengl is both come very far and possibly one of the worst retarded solutions ever seen.
assbot: Logged on 11-07-2015 22:56:47; ascii_modem: fuck opengl. i want peter henderson's sexpr graphics
mircea_popescu: granted this isn't much seeing just how retarded that field is, but anway
mircea_popescu: i am thankful directx fucking died, that's for use.
mircea_popescu: worst thing about the early 2000s was how ms seemed it was going to live forever through directx
mircea_popescu: hm. by "worst retarded" i actually mean "least retarded".
decimation: mircea_popescu: I buy your political reasons, but aes was the 'winner' of a fairly large and open 'competition' and was then recommended by usg. How is that 'coming out of nowhere'?
mircea_popescu: blowfish has successfully resisted analysis and was thoroughly abandoned. because aes "won a competition" ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno about you, or anyone else. but to me, winning a competition is a discomendation.
mircea_popescu: you know, like i don't expect a film to be good because it got 7 oscars. i expect it to suck.
mircea_popescu: and i don't expect a dude to have something meaningful to say because he got a nobel prize, but IN SPITE of getting it.
mircea_popescu: !up phillipsjk
decimation: yeah that seems like a reasonable objection
mircea_popescu: i guess "purely political" is not even the best way to state it. purely idiosyncratic.
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