Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2015-07-07 | 2015-07-09 →
assbot: Long Term Almanac 2000-2050: For the Sun and Selected Stars With Concise Sight Reduction Tables, 2nd Edition: Geoffrey Kolbe: 9780914025108: Books ... ( )
Vexual: decimation: sight redution tables for nother lats are avail from .mil in pdf
Vexual: if you have a printer
Vexual: whats ur approx lat decimation?
Vexual: n/s?
decimation: around 40 n
Vexual: fuck thats a long way north
decimation: yeah, and uk is even father
decimation: farther
Vexual: really?
Vexual: i cant even geography
decimation: usg charges for their nautical almanacs
assbot: Nautical Almanac Office | U.S. Government Bookstore ... ( )
Vexual: same infos free on .mil
decimation: australian?
Vexual: maybe, i dunno whats in thr almanac
Vexual: yes
decimation: yeah uk is roughly 50-60 n
decimation: london is 51 n
decimation: it's relatively warm because of the gulf stream
Vexual: 50s at aussie long is firmly in a world of shit
decimation: ottawa, canada is roughly 45 n for instance
decimation: but much colder
Vexual: theres no land to slow the wind at 50s
decimation: 50 s is well south of tasmania
decimation: that's probably why nobody lives on macquarie island
Vexual: it might be national park
Vexual: on eny given day you might meet a horny marine biologist
decimation: yeah apparently they killed all the mammals
Vexual: yeah rats, i saw that
mats: man
mats: i set up a raid0 with two SSDs
mats: and windoze updates on this box still takes hours wtf
mats: \o/
ben_vulpes: > windows
ben_vulpes: help i am 1200 lines behind
mircea_popescu: have less sex.
ben_vulpes: do y'all eventually get to why averaging out umpteen 2016 blocks won't work in place of timekeeping?
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
decimation: about 80% of it: use ntp! no time itself is owned by usg and so are all servers and isps!
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: for the same reason pulling one's cock doesn't work as a means of flight
ben_vulpes: what?
asciilifeform: 'in place of timekeeping'
ben_vulpes: sorry, diff adjustments.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: they take place with wall clock as invariant
asciilifeform: i spent all morning trying to hammer this into thick headz
asciilifeform: if you plug block times into wall clock, letting the former adjust the latter, you've plugged arse into mouth
ben_vulpes: made good progress i see
asciilifeform: and are no longer using classical bitcoin
ben_vulpes: alas.
ben_vulpes: the thing is miserably bad anyways, why would anyone want to use it?
asciilifeform: still lost on me
ben_vulpes: anyways, how do you plan to handle this on pogos?
asciilifeform: no idea
asciilifeform: left it to ben_vulpes to solve
ben_vulpes: you know i'm not even convinced a node *should* be stood up without human intervention.
asciilifeform: then shouldn't have any interest in pogo
asciilifeform: because whole fucking point of it is that and only that.
ben_vulpes: well "should" is a strong word
asciilifeform: point of pogo is to allow well-meaning but illiterate or even stupid people to run therealbitcoin.
asciilifeform: (and don't forget the merely lazy)
decimation: ben_vulpes: it seemed that there was some some concensus around the idea of randomly selecting a small set of ntp servers out of a large pre-defined set
decimation: this doesn't solve the "pogo clock is shit" problem
asciilifeform: except then danielpbarron reminded us that this will have to happen regularly
asciilifeform: because the thing drifts to all hell
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68400 @ 0.00055147 = 37.7205 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: (marvell chipset ~has~ rtc, but the vendor omitted the 32kHz crystal and power source.)
ben_vulpes: i'm sure moreso under load
asciilifeform: so it uses interrupt-based timing, like msdos
asciilifeform: aha, ben_vulpes has it
decimation: which means continous correction is nearly required
ben_vulpes: myeah, i see that.
decimation: asciilifeform: as to ass-to-mouth system, it depends on your error model for thblock timestamps
asciilifeform: arse-to-mouth is a strictly fact-of thing
decimation: imagine each miner has his own cesium clock
asciilifeform: and meet in the flesh to sync it ?
asciilifeform: let's also imagine dragons.
asciilifeform: try to grasp why political time is a fiction
asciilifeform: and why rsa signatures do not make it less of one
decimation: asciilifeform: it's really hard to imagine when < 100 ns accuracy is nearly freely and reliably avaialable
asciilifeform: picture the proverbial devil in the cable. he perhaps cannot diddle your packets (because you signed them, and have traded pubkeys in person) but he can... delay them
asciilifeform: as long as he likes
asciilifeform: and also can replay.
asciilifeform: the accuracy doesn't matter because you have no way of knowing whether the above have been done to you
asciilifeform: and when
asciilifeform: much of our thought takes place in an imaginary world where communication is instantaneous, perfectly reliable, and perfectly incorruptible. but we do not actually live in that world.
asciilifeform: nor do we get the luxury of precise, predictable delta from that world.
decimation: ntp has provisions against replay and deplay attacks
asciilifeform: replay i can see
asciilifeform: but delay ?
asciilifeform: let me guess, by comparing the behaviour of one node with others
asciilifeform: aka lifting yourself up by own cock.
asciilifeform: in my expected battlefield, chances are that either none of your links are sybils, or ALL OF THEM ARE
asciilifeform: comparing a subset of your field of vision with the rest does nothing against the latter.
decimation: plus the behaviour of one node over time
asciilifeform: can be perfectly consistent
asciilifeform: while leading you straight to hell
asciilifeform: all of this goes back to the 'protocol vs promises' discussion
asciilifeform: it is possible to count the pulses of a pulsar, of cesium atom, of quartz, etc
asciilifeform: but as soon as you ask another person 'what time is it' you are playing political games
decimation: The symmetric modes operate using a sequence of rounds, each consisting of a transmit packet followed by a receive packet, but either of both of these packets could be lost. A round is correct if both packets are correctly received. In order to verify correctness of the protocol, it is necessary to prove a liveness assertion; that is, the protocol always yields a correct round even if after
assbot: Object not found! ... ( )
asciilifeform: there is not actually a way out of this
mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> you know i'm not even convinced a node *should* be stood up without human intervention. << this may be true.
asciilifeform: ^ then there ought to be 100 nodes, running on 'microvax'
mircea_popescu: and the followin line does not follow. some intelligent people are poor, or more to wit : some poor people are (allegedly) intelligent. i doub this is true. but if it were, pogo is their way out.
asciilifeform: because that's how many people alive are ~actually qualified~
mircea_popescu: and if they fail to find it, or to take it, you have no case.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> point of pogo is to allow well-meaning but illiterate or even stupid people to run therealbitcoin. << no. well meaning stupid is the LAST thing we want. i'd rather import us academia.
asciilifeform: then wtf is the point
mircea_popescu: what you want is the alleged minialfs who exist. people who supposedly could use the head, but somehow magically "not enough fuel"
asciilifeform: and if it has to be blessed with the magical breath of life of intelligence every time mains power flickers, it is a proverbial 'assembly line requiring ph.d.s' to borrow from al schwartz
asciilifeform: i.e. a sad joke
mircea_popescu: now this is true
mircea_popescu: but notice that this does not run as far as the previous
asciilifeform: that's all i was trying to say
asciilifeform: there is also cuckoldry aspect here
asciilifeform: one ought to be able to drop pogos on a dumb corp's net
asciilifeform: and have them operate
asciilifeform: no shortage of eligible cuckolds and cuckolders for this
asciilifeform: but it has to be practical
decimation: I view the firewall/nat problem as much bigger
mircea_popescu: if you can do that, comandeer a server.
mircea_popescu: less noticeable than "wtf is this new item"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: many, many more people who can 'commandeer' a broom closet with ethernet
asciilifeform: believe.
asciilifeform: and hardly ever anyone asks 'what is this'
mircea_popescu: so no, i do not believe pogo has anything to do with
assbot: [OPEN] Parasitic P2P Relay on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
asciilifeform: not directly.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: you need a million tyler durdens.
ben_vulpes: and they *can* bless a pogo.
asciilifeform: i thought those just set things on fire ?
ben_vulpes: and pogo is?
decimation: < "The device they built looked like a European version of a power strip. Tucked inside a 15-by-5-inch casing was a tiny Linux computer running powerful hacking software called Metasploit. The pwnie sent out data via cellular networks, which meant they could be accessed from anywhere."
assbot: The Mob's IT Department | Bloomberg Business ... ( )
asciilifeform: a land mine that has to be rebooted by hand every few weeks is a sad joke.
asciilifeform: i stand by this.
decimation: maybe the land mine reboots you
asciilifeform: decimation: not only classic, but so cliche that there are 1,001 commercial copies
mircea_popescu: " running powerful hacking software called Metasploit"
assbot: Planète hurlante (1995) - IMDb ... ( )
mircea_popescu: who the fuck still reads these things
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, actually, it's a good idea.
mircea_popescu: i'd like land mines like that. so would every army out there.
decimation: apparently some mobster in amsterdam recruited a couple of nerds to exploit shipping companies
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you want them on the other side, aha
asciilifeform: shoot the idiots while they crawl around rebooting.
mircea_popescu: no, the problem with landmines atm is that they can't be safely defused
mircea_popescu: if you got 100% guaranteed 2 week only mines, o boy.
asciilifeform: the 'safe defuse with key' thing already exists
mircea_popescu: you'd be rich with this. fo realz.
asciilifeform: notice, not popular
mircea_popescu: cuz not reliable.
asciilifeform: dun think thats why
asciilifeform: rather, because winblowz
mircea_popescu: a 99.999% success rate is the last thing you want.
mircea_popescu: drop 1mn mines, get killed 10 times.
asciilifeform: this is sop btw
asciilifeform: ask folks who work with frags
asciilifeform: there is a certain statistic for how many have, e.g., 1sec fuse
asciilifeform: (if rated is 5)
asciilifeform: 'get killed 10 times' is actually doing pretty well ahead of the curve!
decimation: yeah plenty of folks die trying to learn how to throw gernades
asciilifeform: the reason, afaik, why 'defuse with key' did not catch on is a ~well-founded~ distrust of computer
asciilifeform: 'computer', to an experienced commander, means 'twerp will cast a spell and enemy will walk clean across, shredding you'
asciilifeform: this is what 25 yrs of winblowz did to the mind
asciilifeform: it'll be generations after a sane computer exists that this kind of thinking even gets a chance of drawing to a close.
decimation: also 'we need soldiers who can do that'
ben_vulpes: <ascii_field> want a fucking WALL POSTER << codebase isn't that bad, should be doable by hand :P
asciilifeform: for contrast: i just finished a neat little book (ru) on early artillery
asciilifeform: early cannoneers accepted double-digit chances of being blown up by own barrel
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: go, do
ben_vulpes: no, u
asciilifeform: then swear with your life that it's 100% covered
asciilifeform: 'isn't that bad' l0l
asciilifeform: decimation: re: 'round trip' ntp - you still are at the mercy of local clock's accuracy when computing the trip time
ben_vulpes: <trinque> haha holy shit, dxr's "install" method is vagrant << see also gitlab
asciilifeform: if your local clock is shit, i can still induce you to rely on it more, more
asciilifeform: and drift.
decimation: yes, true
ben_vulpes: vast quantities of braindamage.
decimation: ultimately there's no substitute for good hardware
asciilifeform: i am trying - and apparently failing - to make the point that there is no such thing as 'good hardware' for finding out 'what time' it is on ~my~ atomic clock from across an ocean.
asciilifeform: just so happens that the universe is 'bad hardware' for that.
asciilifeform: even before you add a war
decimation: and yet, even usg manages to keep orbital rb clocks ticking
ben_vulpes: <BingoBoingo> phf: No, not yet. On OpenBSD I'm running an 0.7.2 derivative with LibreSSL 2.0 just to see how it behaves. << how's the libressl build going?
asciilifeform: decimation: timebases!
asciilifeform: not clocks
asciilifeform: try to grasp the difference
asciilifeform: and notice how easy it is to spoof'em
asciilifeform: the thing is a house of cards
decimation: if your point is that they are centrally disciplined that's probably true
asciilifeform: not only
asciilifeform: but defenseless against a kid with sdr card.
ben_vulpes: * williamdunne currently has a neck that looks like Cheetah fur, lovely patterned bruising << furries, asphyxiation...
asciilifeform: chunk of meat in the desert, that flies have not found yet
decimation: at any rate, your objection to coordinating clocks seems to boil down to "can't carry messages of a known latency over spacetime"
decimation: how is this not the case?
asciilifeform: if we were in space war, could probably carry on with something like the naive notion of clocks
asciilifeform: limited only by sr, etc
asciilifeform: but we are not in space.
asciilifeform: but in a hell, with devils
asciilifeform: on every wire.
decimation: so your objection boils down to 'enemy controls means of communication'
decimation: which is a reasonable point
decimation: but is applicable to the entire bitcoin enterprise equally
asciilifeform: it is not.
asciilifeform: because proof-of-work.
asciilifeform: i can tell a zero-diff block and so can you
asciilifeform: some things cannot be faked.
asciilifeform: rsa also exists, and this prevents certain other spurious items
asciilifeform: but these do not add up to a trustworthy clock.
decimation: this only emphasizes the point that there needs to be alternate communication media available
decimation: ionosphere will relay for free, cannot be pwned by usg
asciilifeform: most fundamental problem is that distributed clocks are infinitely sybilable.
asciilifeform: how the fuck do i know what is on the other end of ionosphere?
asciilifeform: man, or usg gnome ?
decimation: you just said, rsa can solve that problem
asciilifeform: only if i'm personally friends with fella who owns clock
decimation: indeed.
asciilifeform: and the wall time i want to know is specifically his
decimation: or he's in your wot somehow
decimation: if 99% of miners use usg time, what's the use of wot-time?
asciilifeform: if 99% of miners use gavincoin and spv, what is the use of therealbitcoin ?
decimation: excellent question
asciilifeform: i suspect that mircea_popescu might answer that it is for the next set of miners
asciilifeform: after the current set gets ddt sprayed on them
asciilifeform: like all locusts deserve
decimation: the idea of a crypto-radio-clock intrigues me
decimation: I have a few sketches for such a thing, but I can't get around the problem of fixed keys that need to be distributed to listeners
asciilifeform: i'm more partial to cryptocurrency that doesn't rely on clocks.
asciilifeform: at least, clocks in the usual political sense.
decimation: that auto-scaling-difficulty thing seems crazy though
decimation: at least on a per-block basis
asciilifeform: it is clearly not the solution
asciilifeform: i linked to it to illustrate the sheer batshit
asciilifeform: the solution is to force the miners themselves into behaving like a pendulum with a period from which they, collectively, deviate at their peril.
asciilifeform: i promise to explain this later.
decimation: sounds like it would involve incrementing the protocol version
asciilifeform: it absolutely cannot work with classical bitcoin
decimation: but it is an interesting idea
asciilifeform: and thus i am not entirely sure who would find it interesting here, and why
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Still sync'd on BritneyChain
asciilifeform: basic idea involves 'left-handed' and 'right-handed' miners, with game-theoretical reward matrix of being one depending on the first derivative in the hashing power of the other.
asciilifeform: still trying to model this.
ben_vulpes: i think mircea_popescu designed something like that for eulora
asciilifeform: did he ?
ben_vulpes: players vs. the game. conversation in ars.
asciilifeform: i suppose he can answer when reads log..
ben_vulpes: balancing of rewards for being mage/barbarian/etc over time
asciilifeform: essentially you want the entire network to have a 'resonant frequency'
asciilifeform: which can now be your timebase.
asciilifeform: why settle for little quartz crystals
asciilifeform: when you can use a planet-sized resonator.
decimation: that reminds me of schumann resonances
assbot: Schumann resonances - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( )
asciilifeform: decimation: i'm still waiting to read a non-batshit explanation of schumann
asciilifeform: (was also thinking of it earlier today)
decimation: it's lightning sprites and earthquakes
decimation: actually I suspect the solar wind buffeting the magnetosphere is a factor
asciilifeform: what i meant was, i'd like to see a rational calculation of why the freq.
asciilifeform: until then, it's voodo
decimation: this crazy czech runs a vaccum-pendulum radio clock
assbot: Main page - OK0EPB - 7 039,4 kHz ... ( )
asciilifeform: state-of-the-art till the '50s iirc
ag3nt_zer0: !rate trinque 1 very helpful to noob
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
ag3nt_zer0: !rate shinohai 1 great help to noob
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84300 @ 0.00054193 = 45.6847 BTC [-] {4}
trinque: ag3nt_zer0: thanks guy
trinque: ben_vulpes: so pipelinedb turned out to be YC shitware
assbot: PipelineDB—The Streaming SQL Database ... ( )
trinque: all they did can be done with triggers, background workers and materialized views
trinque: and they had the nerve to *RENAME POSTGRESQL TO SOMETHING ELSE*
trinque: meanwhile they did not do the one thing that might've been interesting (that I can see), which would've been to fire pg_notify events when the results of a given view change
assbot: China Stock Sellers Frozen Out of 71% of Market - Bloomberg Business ... ( )
punkman: "The eurozone has given Greece until Thursday to present new proposals to secure a deal with creditors, and has called a full EU summit for Sunday."
mircea_popescu: yep, it's the end of the world.
mircea_popescu: after this unwinds 1929 will look like glbse by comparison.
assbot: Tetris blocks traumatic flashbacks even after the memory is fixed - health - 06 July 2015 - New Scientist ... ( )
punkman: lots of greek banks in the balkans, I wonder what's gonna happen with those
assbot: Exposed to Greek banks, Balkans brace for trouble ... ( )
mircea_popescu: PatentChina 1 hour ago
mircea_popescu: imagine what will happen if month later no china crash is seen? but USA has advantage that it will never feel shame. one lie does not come true, there is another one. and in the end they can still say china has hacked usa without any evidences. Repeating lies 1000 times, it becomes truth. that is how USA invaded Iraq.
mircea_popescu: anyway, hopefully they manage to prop it, because if they do not and people start unwinding us holdings on the grounds of the massive yuan profits to be thus made, that's that.
mircea_popescu: !up ValentinJesse
ag3nt_zer0: "But getting the game into a person's hands immediately after they have been raped, for example, won't always be practical, so the team tested whether it could still work a day later – after the memory had been consolidated and slept on." haha
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 04:25:37; mats: and windoze updates on this box still takes hours wtf
cazalla: good logs, good meal, no good wine to go with it but 2/3 ain't bad eh
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45200 @ 0.00055343 = 25.015 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 04-06-2015 15:16:44; williamdunne:
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 05:16:27; ben_vulpes: * williamdunne currently has a neck that looks like Cheetah fur, lovely patterned bruising << furries, asphyxiation...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40748 @ 0.00055343 = 22.5512 BTC [+]
funkenstein_: <asciilifeform> i'm more partial to cryptocurrency that doesn't rely on clocks. <-- there was one called liquidcoin
funkenstein_: the problem of what kind of clock foot soldier P needs depends on exact specification of role foot soldier P needs to play
funkenstein_: a node with no clock could still be a useful one, depending on what you had in mind
punkman: ;;view 22382
gribble: #22382 Wed Jul 8 08:30:46 2015 punkman SELL 1.0 night @ 1.3 btc (Seaside villa in Creta, Greece. 4bdr, sleeps 8, a/c, wifi, etc. 3min walk to beach. discounts on certain dates.
gabriel_laddel: !up diana_coman
kakobrekla: punkman yours?
punkman: kakobrekla: no, but I've been there a few times
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8202 @ 0.00055343 = 4.5392 BTC [+]
assbot: In Russia, selfie takes you, prompts official “safety selfie” warning | Ars Technica ... ( )
bagels7: Hi, does anyone happen to know the title of that trilema article that explains how women are immature and basically blame men for their shortcomings
assbot: Ten Years After - I'd Love To Change The World (lyrics) - YouTube ... ( )
gabriel_laddel: !rated bagels7
assbot: You have not rated bagels7.
gabriel_laddel: !gettrust bagels7
assbot: Trust relationship from user gabriel_laddel to user bagels7: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. | |
assbot: Days after Hacking Team breach, nobody fired, no customers lost | Ars Technica ... ( )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: << 'Fixed difficulty (0.05) / Block reward reduces 4% every 1000 blocks' (from tardstalk)
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 12:18:05; funkenstein_: <asciilifeform> i'm more partial to cryptocurrency that doesn't rely on clocks. <-- there was one called liquidcoin
asciilifeform: and appears to be long-dead... to nobody's great surprise
asciilifeform: << can be very useful as a boat anchor! or balloon ballast.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 12:22:35; funkenstein_: a node with no clock could still be a useful one, depending on what you had in mind
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: when you can use a planet-sized resonator. << each planet would have a different frequency
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: was not speaking of the chunk of rock per se. see thread.
asciilifeform: '...Greece's creditors refuse to consider declaring all of this bad debt null and void—not because of anything having to do with Greece, which is small enough to be forgiven much of its bad debt without causing major damage, but because of Spain, Italy and others, which, if similarly forgiven, would blow up the finances of the entire European Union. Thus, it is rather obvious that Greece is being punished to keep other count
asciilifeform: ries in line... Add to this a double-helping of double standards. The IMF won't lend to Greece because it requires some assurance of repayment; but it will continue to lend to the Ukraine, which is in default and collapsing rapidly, without any such assurances because, you see, the decision is a political one. The European Central Bank no longer accepts Greek bonds as collateral because, you see, it considers them to be junk;
asciilifeform: but it will continue to suck in all sorts of other financial garbage and use it to spew forth Euros without comment, keeping other European countries on financial life support simply because they aren't Greece.'
assbot: ClubOrlov: Financial Nonsense Overload ... ( )
decimation: "Microsoft's deal to acquire Nokia's handset business in 2013 -- one of the last acts of outgoing CEO Steve Ballmer -- has been a "head-scratcher" from the beginning, says FBR Capital Markets analyst Daniel Ives."
assbot: Microsoft cutting up to 7,800 jobs ... ( )
asciilifeform: decimation: just how many people does the redmond beast need to collect winblowz rent and craft 'bugs' ?
asciilifeform: i doubt they need as many as 700
funkenstein_: masked gunman to clerk: "I'm here to keep you on financial life support"
assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
assbot: Homebrew CPUs: Messing around with a J1 - Victor Yurkovsky ... ( )
asciilifeform: mats: i remember that one - pretty neat! << original www of it
assbot: The J1 Forth CPU — excamera ... ( )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76353 @ 0.00057177 = 43.6564 BTC [+] {3}
jurov: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 273.09, Best ask: 273.16, Bid-ask spread: 0.07000, Last trade: 273.08, 24 hour volume: 28460.65127183, 24 hour low: 263.0, 24 hour high: 274.11, 24 hour vwap: None
decimation: that forth cpu seems similar to that 'picolisp' cpu
mats: o lawd
mats: the end is nigh
funkenstein_: <-- just for fun i made signed 250kb TX sending 11 millies from "cat" spam address to treasury
assbot: 01000000fdb40402806ffd51e0b01cc9254067cd12878c9b5869d7ee30a56843c9e16590fea57b02 - ... ( )
funkenstein_: but i was unable to broadcast
danielpbarron: apparently transactions larger than some magic number cannot even get relayed by nodes, and only a miner can forcibly include it in a block
jurov: mircea hit that with bitbet payouts, there's vitriolic trilema piece somewhere
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i was more imagining each planet having it's own blockchain, but I guess that's
jurov: danielpbarron: you tried to feed it to ?
mod6: thestringpuller: if they did, it'd be an altcoin aka; marscoin, uranuscoin etc
thestringpuller: mod6: lol ur-anus-coin
mod6: =]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why would they fire anyone ?
mircea_popescu: they're lucky anyone at all wants to work for them as it is.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 05:09:39; asciilifeform: early cannoneers accepted double-digit chances of being blown up by own barrel
danielpbarron: jurov> danielpbarron: you tried to feed it to << is it possible? when I type 'bitcoind help' I do not see the "send raw signed transaction" command
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 05:19:44; asciilifeform: it is not.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron iirc asciilifeform made a patch
mircea_popescu: o nm that was fpr whole blocks
jurov: maybe i'm mistaken, i thought it was alwas possible to submit tx
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 05:21:24; decimation: ionosphere will relay for free, cannot be pwned by usg
mircea_popescu: nah jurov i recall people using their own tools for that throughout
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 05:24:07; asciilifeform: after the current set gets ddt sprayed on them
mircea_popescu: they are the exact equivalent of materiel. the humvees the usg lost to isis work for isis just as well.
mircea_popescu: << this is rank nonsense. to be money it will have to handle time.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 05:26:05; asciilifeform: i'm more partial to cryptocurrency that doesn't rely on clocks.
danielpbarron: > bitcoind: Argument list too long << my 0.7.2 node didn't like it
mircea_popescu: what you're saying is basically "i'm more interested in food that doesn't rely on being digested"
danielpbarron: i don't think it's even checking the validity of the tx, and is instead rejecting the hex string as being too long; I can get my 0.5.3 node to give the same error and it doesn't recognize the method
mircea_popescu: lol 0.7 implemented tx manipulation that doesn't work on 1mb sized txn ?
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 09:00:25; cazalla: good logs, good meal, no good wine to go with it but 2/3 ain't bad eh
jurov: danielpbarron i tried electrum, it parsed tx properly
jurov: but broadcast error: {u'message': u'64: tx-size', u'code': -26}
williamdunne: << nah, I wasn't the one being asphyxiated, and the marks are not the result of it
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 05:16:27; ben_vulpes: * williamdunne currently has a neck that looks like Cheetah fur, lovely patterned bruising << furries, asphyxiation...
gabriel_laddel: it's okay, no one here will judge you :p
williamdunne pondering on confessing to my skat fetish
gabriel_laddel: ;; ud skat
gribble: | skat. taking a shit in someones mouth and having them eat it. I love getting a big load of skat in my mouth its so good. by skat eater September 20, 2003. 419 333.
mircea_popescu: ;;google scatman
gribble: THE SCATMAN - Scatman John HD1080p - YouTube: <>; Scatman (ski-ba-bop-ba-dop-bop) Official Video HD -Scatman John ...: <>; Scatman John - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <>
assbot: FBI seized child porn website with 215,000 users: court filing| Reuters ... ( )
williamdunne: Carolina
williamdunne: Server
gabriel_laddel: what are cat cables and how do I network computers together without a web browser.
williamdunne: You've got to connect the CAT 3 BSD cable into your Universal Parallel Networking port and install the latest ApacheBSD drivers, and then BGP route your HardDrive into the global local network, repeating these steps for each computer on the network. And once this is complete you plug cables into each of your available body holes and pray for IP issuance, prior to jamming each cable into your nearest USB hub
jurov: that reads like eulora recipes
gabriel_laddel: oh, sorry, I should have made it clear I was referring to the child pornography thing
williamdunne: jurov: Well, I'm employable
gernika: mod6 I've attempted syncing on OpenBSD again and am now past block 168000 and have reached 185126. It's going very very slowly though.
gabriel_laddel: !up _biO_
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27100 @ 0.00057258 = 15.5169 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: buenos dias
gabriel_laddel: como estas?
ben_vulpes: muy bien
ben_vulpes: ¿y tu, comrade?
gabriel_laddel: fenomenal
ben_vulpes: ¿de veras? ¿porque?
mircea_popescu: companero ? compadre ?
ben_vulpes: 'twas a sovietism
gabriel_laddel: Aterricé un trabajo
gabriel_laddel: writing CL + mcclim
mircea_popescu: the sovietism is tovarash
ben_vulpes: oh fuck you srsly
mircea_popescu: the world is not my fault!
ben_vulpes: not you, gabriel_laddel
ben_vulpes: gabriel_laddel: let me tell you of the salt mines of my homeworld...
mod6: <+gernika> mod6 I've attempted syncing on OpenBSD again and am now past block 168000 and have reached 185126. It's going very very slowly though. << good to hear though
gabriel_laddel: ben_vulpes: go on ahead
ben_vulpes: there is a SaaS that handles users for people who for whatever reason don't want to stand up their own services and servers.
ben_vulpes: developers working with this service can alter its behavior by providing it 'node' code that it executes on login/registration events
ben_vulpes: their sandbox provides precisely one map of dummy data.
ben_vulpes: it is not configurable in any way.
ben_vulpes: the suggested way to cram code into their orifices is by pasting it into text fields.
ben_vulpes: one can configure post-commit hooks in git, but their logic importer a) only works with github and b) only works with public repositories.
ben_vulpes: now on one hand that this thing doesn't give programmers any handles to alter test data is fine, in that it forces one to either work in a js repl or you know /actually write tests/
ben_vulpes: braindamage.
ben_vulpes: anyways i don't believe you nobody gets paid to write common lisp lalala i can't hear you
gabriel_laddel: I suggest you don't contemplate the loper device.
gabriel_laddel: it might be a danger to your health
ben_vulpes: you say that as though there were an option.
jurov: i daresay loper machine depends on solved halting problem
mod6: 359k+
gabriel_laddel: jurov: how so?
gabriel_laddel: jurov: the routing can't be that difficult
jurov: it's supposed to predict resources exhaustion at any time so that operator can be alerted
gabriel_laddel: jurov: No it isn't. It just eats all required resources and (maybe) returns.
gabriel_laddel: (I think)
gabriel_laddel: What happens if I (loop while t do ...) on a von n. arch? it just runs forever. Same thing.
gabriel_laddel: Don't do that.
gabriel_laddel: Now, I think the "language constructs" map directly to routing logic, so the AST "unrolls" onto the hardware
gabriel_laddel: but I've not sat down to work it out
williamdunne: One of the "lizardsquad" guys just got charged with 50,700 offences
jurov: if i learned anything from my haskell stint, it's how computer is utterly bad to manage its memory and other resources
jurov: even if you specify in most precise detail how to do stuff without side effects, you still have to hold its hand in order to not exhaust the memory
mircea_popescu: <jurov> it's supposed to predict resources exhaustion at any time so that operator can be alerted << in principle machine does not have to proceed before it wants to.
mircea_popescu: i am sure gabriel_laddel proposed "don't do that" won' cut it with alf - but i am also sure a "sometimes warn before" behaviour would be acceptable.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 7 @ 0.157 = 1.099 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 15:44:41; mircea_popescu: they're lucky anyone at all wants to work for them as it is.
mircea_popescu: ahahaha wut ?
mircea_popescu: dude get out, they're the website of 2015. every two bit 20something schmuck with two friends and a girlfriend has started one, last year.
ascii_field: places for folks to write malware and get serious clean money for it
mircea_popescu: there is at least one million of them. i have stopped even trying to count past 100k last year.
ascii_field: SERIOUS money
mircea_popescu: they never saw even a decent salary.
ascii_field: not 'work 12 hours to make min wage while you sleep'
mircea_popescu: this recently raped one made less than gawker.
ascii_field: cut how many ways ?
ascii_field: (i assume the truth lies somewhere in those 500 GB...)
mircea_popescu: the boys made slightly more than they'd have made working for gawker, on the grounds that they're asocial weirdos.
mircea_popescu: the girls made about the same.
ascii_field: there were girls ?!!
mircea_popescu: we're not talking enough to be middle class here.
ascii_field: where ?
mircea_popescu: guy's gf.
ascii_field: didn't see any obvious ones in the 'git' login config
mircea_popescu: someone did the accounting and the sucking sudanese cock you know.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.157 = 1.413 BTC [-] {2}
ascii_field: << 'handle time' != 'use customary electronic clocks'
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 15:53:13; mircea_popescu: << this is rank nonsense. to be money it will have to handle time.
mircea_popescu: but you're not taking time out of it.
ascii_field: time is in.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 16:32:33; ben_vulpes: ¿y tu, comrade?
ascii_field buys ben_vulpes dictionary
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is what powers my disinterest in the matter. i saw in logs this pov is divergent with teh republic, so i'll entertain the alternative viewpoint, but just for the sake of records.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: which ?
mircea_popescu: ascii_field re the "yet another bedroom derpitude" thread just before.
ascii_field: the clocks?
ascii_field: 'hackteam' ?
ascii_field: which derpitude ?
ascii_field: jurov: << if at some point i proposed a thing that requires 'solved halting problem' please say!
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 16:45:07; jurov: i daresay loper machine depends on solved halting problem
mircea_popescu: hackteam
mircea_popescu: o look at teh nyse btw.
ascii_field: Run Moar Winblowz!!!
mod6: trades haulted, no suprise there.
mod6: *halted
williamdunne: I wonder if any sysadmins are gonna jump out of some windows
mod6: next, like .cn, selling banned
mircea_popescu: mod6 "our free market is this thing you can only buy!!1"
mircea_popescu: and this is somehow ~not a scam~
mod6: right
mircea_popescu: then they want to "regulate" biutcoin
mircea_popescu: make it more like the fiat ponzi system
mircea_popescu: the gall.
mod6: srsly.
assbot: Last 10 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
ascii_field: i fully expected this after hearing the cn thing
decimation: they totally know it's not a 'cyber attack'
mircea_popescu: anyway, they had no choice.
mircea_popescu: chinese decided to unwind
ascii_field: raise yer hand if you thought ft meade would leave nyse switched on
mircea_popescu: nah was not possibru.
decimation: ft meade does what wall st wants, not vice versa
mircea_popescu: really a distinction without a difference
davout: so i'm trying to build the stator, getting "headers.h:21:27: fatal error: openssl/ecdsa.h: No such file or directory"
mircea_popescu: does liver do what spleen wants or spleen, liver
williamdunne: Chinese dumping US stocks now, I'm presuming. Need to pump some filthy fiat into their own markets
ascii_field: davout: your openssl did not build
ascii_field: davout: did you have the tarballs in place ?
mircea_popescu: also make sure you build the right one
ascii_field: there is a MANIFEST
davout: i have openssl-1.0.1g.tar.gz in distfiles
decimation: check the hashes plus sigs
mircea_popescu: that one yea
davout: (using mod6's build script)
ascii_field: ^^^^ ~that~'s why doesn't work
ascii_field: his scripts never worked for me
mod6: you need to use "" that comes with the stator tarball
decimation: you probably have the 'realpath' issue
decimation: which is because debian is fucktarded
mod6: this too ^^
davout: ok, i'll do this, thank yall!
mircea_popescu: a could be
mod6: davout: what os?
davout: gentoo
mircea_popescu: tech support at its best is keeping a list of who's fucktarded.
mod6: yeah, that has problems there.
mircea_popescu: sad state of affairs.
ascii_field: davout: for now, skip the and use my scripts
ascii_field: very short and simple to grasp
ascii_field: and pretty much guaranteed to work on gentoo
decimation: just be sure to check the distfile hashes
decimation: don't grab the wrong ones
ascii_field: aha. this is not automated in mine
davout: ok
davout: where's the stator tarball?
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: brilliant. ought to be installed in every american gym
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: For some reason she looks like a giant
mircea_popescu: low camera williamdunne
williamdunne was a terrible art student
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: you're right
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: let's have the finale of ?
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 17:07:03; mircea_popescu: hackteam
mircea_popescu: generally the difference between advertising set and porn set is that porn set cameras all set crotch height
mircea_popescu: ascii_field what's more to say ?
mod6: grab those, verify, unpack; beware that you need to drop openssl/bdb/boost in distfiles by hand. and ascii_field's script doesn't want boost.tar.gz, wants
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: no, it isn't 'greatest leak ever' - but certainly the most complete gutting of a usg contractor in history
ascii_field: everything but the ashtray
mircea_popescu: no argument.
mircea_popescu: you will notice it is not actually a usg contractor. it's a sudanese contractor.
williamdunne: These "decentralize all the things" fuckwads are really pissing me off re: NYSE
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: usg was a major client
mircea_popescu: the difference between this and an "etsy shop" is color scheme.
ascii_field: and of course it was the крыша
mircea_popescu: i dunno, seems more like it was a major alleged client.
ascii_field: picture what would happen if ~i~ tried to open a 'hackteam'
mircea_popescu: dunno how much you know about how teenaged girls suck cock these days
mircea_popescu: but the way it goes, they pretend to be selling to X so Y may buy
ascii_field: about as much as i know of penguins
mircea_popescu: ascii_field nobody would even notice.
mircea_popescu: it's all in your head.
mircea_popescu: i bet half of your coworkers are "secretly" part of one.
mircea_popescu: it truely is the band of 2015.
mircea_popescu: i kid you not. but i do not expect anyone to take this on faith.
ascii_field: fact is, monetizing virii requires a крыша
ascii_field: no srsly
ascii_field: unlike penguin and gurlz, i know this from direct observation
mircea_popescu: are you even from this planet at ALL ? do you know how much can be passed off as work before even as much as touching a tool ?
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Some are pretty enthusiastic about it
mircea_popescu: yes, playing in a band requires a guitar.
mircea_popescu: so ? got any sticks ?
ascii_field: music with no ears.
mircea_popescu: every kid in a barage gand in 1955 had ear ?
mircea_popescu: what ear. they're americans.
ascii_field: anybody can write turdware, yes
ascii_field: i am speaking of ~money~
mircea_popescu: also all in your head.
williamdunne: People must care because SJWs signed a petition, wao
mircea_popescu: these particular kids would have made more scamming in eve
mircea_popescu: but hey.
williamdunne: #1 fintech influencer supposedly
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: from what i can tell, the 'hackteam' folks were paid hundreds of thousands of euros to do things that i consider a weekend's work
ascii_field: this is called 'crown concession'
mircea_popescu: start one then.
mircea_popescu: all you need is the girlie to suck sudan cock.
mircea_popescu: ask on craigslist
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2015 07:04:28; asciilifeform: dude really, it is very easy to fly. just bend your arms into an effective lift surface, right angle of attack, and fart really hard.
mircea_popescu: ask.on.craigslist.
ascii_field utterly fails to grasp what mircea_popescu is speaking of
mircea_popescu: say "Very gifted reverse engineer, looking for outgoing, persuasive, experienced slut to start hackteam together. You'll have to suck bureaucrat cock to get us contracts, I'll fill them, we split the loot."
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: guess where i'm posting from
ascii_field: it doesn't work unless you have access to the right cock
mircea_popescu: the congress library
ascii_field: and we - thus far - don't.
mircea_popescu: eh get outta here.
mircea_popescu: that's HER job.
assbot: Logged on 25-06-2015 03:01:25; asciilifeform: i built it.
mircea_popescu: pack her off to whatever, sierra leone
ascii_field: we don't have any gurlz though
mircea_popescu: sucks to be us.
thestringpuller: i think the network just forked again
ascii_field: thing i'm beginning to suspect is that nobody gives half a shit about reversing, or 'security', or any of it
ascii_field: but only launders usg money
ascii_field: with pre-selected butt buddies
mircea_popescu: the first part is right.
ascii_field: ph0rk!
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
mircea_popescu: and ima go play eulora in celebration.
ascii_field: unph0rk3d ?
assbot: Bitcoin Block #364437 ... ( )
williamdunne: It's okay guyz, NYSE is turning itself off and on again
jurov: nyse mining bitcoins?
williamdunne: Yeah, they've got some celerons on the job
gabriel_laddel: !up ascii_field
assbot: Project IceStorm ... ( )
gabriel_laddel: ^ some people reverse engineered an fpga's bitstream format
gabriel_laddel: *a fpga...
ascii_field: 'We have enough bits mapped that we can create a functional verilog model for almost all bitstreams generated by Lattice iCEcube2 for the iCE40 HX1K-TQ144, as long as no block memories or PLLs are used. ' << wake me up when that last part changes. and when i can get this chip from ten different chinese foundries.
ascii_field: this all happened before, with xilinx
ascii_field: and we know how it ends.
ascii_field: 'Next on the TODO list: PLLs, Timing Analysis...' << ahahahahahaha
ascii_field: try synthesizing ~anything~ of any serious complexity without exact timing data for ~every piece of shit on the die~
ascii_field: i gotta take my hat off to these folks for sheer effort, but the fact remains that they are scooping out the sea with the proverbial thimble.
gabriel_laddel: To any "hackers" reading the logs - rather than going after hackteam, try xilinx, lattice semiconductor next time?
ascii_field: ('how it ends,' for the uninitiated, is that some time around when these fine folks are about half done, the chip will go out of print. and be replaced by an entirely incompatible one.)
ascii_field: gabriel_laddel: this doesn't help either. no one can force them to keep making the 'doxxed' chip.
ascii_field: a 'doxxed' fpga is entirely useless if you can't get it!
gabriel_laddel: ascii_field: imho this is going to be a slow process of ad-hoc reverse engineering of a design, finding chiacom manufactures...
ascii_field: it is, after all, a physical object.
gabriel_laddel: someone needs to carry the water.
ascii_field: gabriel_laddel: there is no mass market for these.
ascii_field: we had this thread before.
gabriel_laddel: !s bribery
assbot: 9 results for 'bribery' :
ascii_field: not bribery as such, just that you'd have to pay the fab up front, cash on the barrel
ascii_field: to have any made.
ascii_field: not a bribe, but straightforward commerce
ascii_field: gabriel_laddel: another detail that must be understood is that reversing for the purpose of programming is a very different animal from reversing for the purpose of rebuilding.
ascii_field: in the case of the latter, it is necessary to have a ~complete~ picture of the vital organs
ascii_field: including aspects that a programmer doesn't give a flying fuck about, like chemistry
ascii_field: and in-circuit testing
gabriel_laddel: Unrelated: Uncle Al's disqus profile. It is a treat.
assbot: Disqus Profile - Xemist ... ( )
ascii_field: gabriel_laddel: good to see that he's still kicking, somewhere
gabriel_laddel: Orange County iirc?
ascii_field: gabriel_laddel: i suspected he might have 'went perelman'
williamdunne: gabriel_laddel: About 12 months ago I was tasked with checking the security of a fiat institution. Within three hours I had found two different bugs to send money from accounts that weren't mine, and two different bugs to view all account details that weren't mine, and another to see all transaction details that weren't mine.
gabriel_laddel: williamdunne: !
williamdunne: IKR, the operator was a friend of mine, but he was very concerned when I sent him the details for a large transaction from themselves to a law firm they employ
gabriel_laddel: Speaking of Uncle Al - not only did the 'gentlemen' at the eot wash group modify their URL scheme so that his links appear "dead", but Stanford has also moved the single link in qz4.html
ascii_field: williamdunne: and that was when he put out your eyes and cut out your tongue ?
ascii_field: gabriel_laddel: big fat surprise
gabriel_laddel: lol check this out
williamdunne: ascii_field: not quite, although I do regret agreeing to do it pro-bono
gabriel_laddel: ^ new url scheme vs.
assbot: Page not found | The Eöt-Wash Group ... ( )
gabriel_laddel: williamdunne: so you're the guy who makes the spice flow?
gabriel_laddel: what exactly do you do?
williamdunne: Hard to pin that one down
gabriel_laddel: doya have a cv or the like?
assbot: Disqus - The Strange World of &#8220;Reward Deficiency Syndrome&#8221; (Part 2) ... ( )
ascii_field: many lulz
ascii_field: 'Be homicidally depressed and aim at the top. That is like voting, except the count is honest and meaningful.'
williamdunne: I've never received a job by anything but reference. First job when I was 14 was a game programmer, second job when 15 was working at a military intelligence company in London doing some infosec and accounting type stuff. Lots of freelancing stuff
williamdunne: Security, programming, pretty much anything with a keyboard
williamdunne: Recently did some stuff for the BitFinex guys, that wasn't much fun but y'know. Pays for stuff. Think I'll have more with them in future
gabriel_laddel: !up ascii_field
gabriel_laddel: !up NewLiberty
williamdunne: What happened to that German socialist girl, she ever come back to continue her derping?
assbot: The Polymath Archives: The Inappropriately Excluded ... ( )
gabriel_laddel: "The antidote to national social and financial collapse is war. War clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of social and economic realities. It rewards the creative, productive, and effective. It reduces redundant populations. North Korea, India, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia (paid for Paki research, repaid by Paki nukes) stare down some 1000 exceptionally well-crafted and deliverable Israeli thermonukes.
gabriel_laddel: Fukishima effluent on California's coast chews up the food chain to seals. 39 million person California, tremendously government subsidized, is collapsed. Its unsecured debt is the Saudi GNP while its $45 billion/year agriculture Central Valley has returned to desert, unemploying a million Mexican slaves with nowhere to go. Let's run the Battle of the Somme again, and soon. The jet stream dips south in autumn." (fr
gabriel_laddel: om Uncle Al)
trinque: war doesn't really reduce redundant population
trinque: bounces right back after the war, if there's a dip at all
mats: uh
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: 'If you want to end ISIS, teach it game theory and casebooks. "They['ll] get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do," and lose.' (from the al schwartz link earlier)
trinque: mats: I am not finding a good graph of the russian population per year, yet I recall ww2 being a temporary blip downward that was rapidly recovered
trinque: and they sustained huge casualties
mats: the specific claim being made is 'redundant populations'
mats: how do we evaluate this claim
trinque: there'd have to be some correlation between an indicator of this redundancy before the war and which soldiers died
trinque: "unskilled laborers died more often than ..." << maybe something like that
ascii_field: '12 years public school, 4 years undergrad, 6 years PhD, 4 years post-doc. You are now over 30, deeply in debt, and starting life. Your idiot high school classmate who held a STOP sign at a construction site has been pulling $80K/year, has a fine home, wife, three kids, and a motor boat. His eldest son rakes in $850K/year tax-free facilitating recreational pharmaceuticals and an escort service.' << schwartz
trinque: mats: but then even if the stupid tend to die more often, it could still be so that the stupid back home fuck enough to replenish stocks
mats: ain't social science great
ascii_field: trinque: intelligence doesn't breed true. (stupidity, however, does. this confuses folks)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14900 @ 0.00057258 = 8.5314 BTC [+]
trinque: ascii_field: I don't follow
trinque: ah that intelligence is not necessarily passed down genetically?
trinque: definitely not
trinque: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: trinque: also most folks who idly ponder the subject end up conflating several distinct things under 'intelligence'
ascii_field: far more interesting is the trait hasn eysenck called 'psychoticism'
ascii_field: which is the thing without which arbitrarily strong 'intelligence' ends up a chinese exam taker
ascii_field: interestingly, old norse, even, had a very specific word for this trait
ascii_field does not have the link with him. if anyone recalls the answer, do chime in
trinque: old norse probably had an honorable term for the thing
trinque: ascii_field: something like the combination of dominance and being a social supernode?
ascii_field: mircea_popescu chronically links the two, but they are entirely independent
ascii_field: one can have one coming out of ears and arse, and lack the other entirely
ascii_field: specifically, you can have arbitrarily high 'psychoticism' in the sense of being perelman and no 'dominance' or 'social supernode' to speak of.
trinque: ascii_field: then is it a measure of the willingness to fight other people?
ascii_field: again no
ascii_field: if you must reduce it to a soundbite - it is just a measure of the quality of the rng in your head
ascii_field: nothing to do with relating to other people.
trinque: ascii_field: I am promting you to define the term instead of merely restating it
trinque: I do not follow that definition either
ascii_field: trinque: i am certain that, just like everyone else here, you have met both kinds of 'intelligence'
ascii_field: i.e. 'champion at exams' vs the other kind.
trinque: sure, and the former is deeply embedded in a group concept of what he ought to be doing
trinque: and the latter has his own idea
ascii_field: what makes the exam champ the waste of oxygen that he is ?
trinque: general obedience is what I see
jurov: !up jborkl
trinque: ascii_field: by good RNG do you mean that they are capable of novel thoughts?
trinque: rather, that they have a greater capacity for ...
jborkl: The way it has been before, not all nodes have the same amount of txns in mempool - I never got enough of a explanation to discuss it
jborkl: mine has 32000 currently and blockchain has 21000
ascii_field: trinque: capable+inclined
trinque: then yes, I see your point
ascii_field: the 'capable' part is definitely key. who hasn't met his fair share of hack writers, for instance, poor schmucks grasping desperately for one singe original idea? and never finding it
jurov: jborkl: maybe different antispam rules
trinque: ascii_field: haha, my former bosses for instance
jborkl: possible, there are a ton of waiting txns either way and the spike has been recently
jborkl: although I have just been watching from the sideline for a long time (not active)
trinque: ascii_field: it would make a great deal of sense to me if there were a connection between this kind of intelligence and personality traits which cause him to have a much lower default level of regard for any particular human off the street.
trinque: if he in fact has the capability, then the empathy which might cause him to accept someone else's perspective instead would only be a hindrance
assbot: Norton I, Emperor of the UnitedStates ... ( )
ascii_field: trinque: bad example. norton was popular.
ascii_field: a true social butterfly, even.
trinque: hah oh, my mistake
trinque: maybe someone that secretly collects human skin furniture then
ascii_field: do you collect dead ants ?
ascii_field: or kill ants for sport ?
trinque can see he will never earn the honorific "the Terrible"
ascii_field: true Not Giving A Fuck doesn't have a plus or minus sign. it's just a big fat zero.
decimation: re: stupid breeding true < I thought 'reversion to the population mean' was the general outcome
ascii_field: and stupidity is perfectly normal
decimation: I suppose tragically stupid parents are likely to have slightly smarter children
decimation: but not many worry about that case
ascii_field: not speaking here of extreme deformities
ascii_field: extra chromosomes, etc
decimation: right
ascii_field: just the factory-standard mind
decimation: but two iq 90 parents are likely to have children that score a little closer to 100
decimation: (for whites in the us)
decimation: who would be lost in the unwashed 1st std deviation anyway
lobbes: !up ascii_field
assbot: Logged on 12-08-2014 00:44:36; mjr_: by the way, anyone gonna tell me if i can play this game where i can buy things with bitcoin?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
decimation: re: political time < it occurred to me that the far more obvious way of synchronizing a clock is to simply take note of the sunrise and/or sunset
decimation: in fact, someone who depises 'astronomical time' in favor of cesium time is also fully in favor of 'usg time'
ascii_field: decimation: and if it rains ?
decimation: wait till tomorrow
ascii_field: and if you are in submarine ?
ascii_field: can't wait
ascii_field: you're running a node.
ascii_field: in real time
decimation: actually it would be neat to build a nutrino detector
decimation: in your submarine
ascii_field: afaik there is no useful timing info in solar neutrono flows
ascii_field: *neutrino flow
decimation: you might be able to determine the angle of the sun w.r.t. the earth's surface
ascii_field: and, considering the famous formula ('50/50 interactions when passing through light-year of lead') portable detector is a questionable affair
decimation: sure but you got water everywhere
decimation: although biologics would probably jam your signal
ascii_field: examine the construction of a neutrino observatory.
ascii_field: (typically, abandoned mine filled with salt water and thousands of photomultiplier tubes on the walls, each the size of a man's torso)
decimation: indeed.
ascii_field: anyway, since this thread came back to life, i will point out that mircea_popescu is right re: the notion of time being necessary for a bitcoin net. but it doesn't have to come from a clock as traditionally understood
ascii_field: it just has to be a reasonably-periodic signal that all nodes can see, whose period is not affected by the aggregate hash rate, nor can be manipulated at reasonable expense by gnomes
decimation: perhaps the pogo should come with a sunlight detector
ascii_field: natural phenomena don't fit the bill
ascii_field: not only because they are not reliably detectable (rain, clouds, being in a submarine)
ascii_field: but because can be faked in various 'good enough' ways
ascii_field: and, on the other end, require specialized hardware
decimation: if usg can spam uv over a large area for hours, then you probably have bigger problems than money
ascii_field: decimation: thinking more of hacks like rf detection of sunspot cycle
ascii_field: or schumann's resonance, etc
decimation: yeah. ultimately a thinking person can observe sunrise, sunset, set own clock (calendar might be another matter)
decimation: of course 'set clock' algorithm needs your lat/lon
lobbes: plus, then you are back to 'who sets the clocks' problem
decimation: the sun does.
ascii_field: and what of when you cannot see the sunrise ?
decimation: then you ought to have made preparations
ascii_field: such as ?
decimation: if you have a submarine, you probably ought to have high quality timekeeping equipment
ascii_field: so we're back to clock, then
ascii_field: we already know how to meet and set clocks, last i checked
decimation: you could even use a sundial
ascii_field: on submarine.
decimation: submarine needs clock, yes.
ascii_field: let's try to define the basic puzzle here
ascii_field: two (at minimum) geographically separated people, with enemies in between, wish to agree re: how much time has passed since they last spoke, 2016 blocks ago.
decimation: they don't own clocks and can't see the sunrise and don't know where they are too?
ascii_field: let's suppose they traded pgp keys and can communicate securely. however, they cannot prevent the enemy from delaying messages
ascii_field: or sometimes 'losing' them entirely
decimation: sure.
ascii_field: say they own very poor clocks, which drift by a second - or more - per minute.
decimation: heh ok
ascii_field: (pogo...)
decimation: it's not quite that bad
decimation: but not great, granted
ascii_field: for the sake of argument.
ascii_field: and now compound the problem by supposing that it is not you and your best friend, but you and a network consisting, to an unknown degree, of devils
decimation: devils who reluctantly serve up blocksl
ascii_field: devils who do whatever it takes to camouflage as men
ascii_field: while dishing out max damage
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92665 @ 0.00057468 = 53.2527 BTC [+] {4}
funkenstein_: consider a node that passes on valid TXs, checks new blocks for proper work and passes them on. it ignores timestamps and lets miners say what current difficulty is. useless or not?
ascii_field: vulnerable to rewinds.
ascii_field: and to other induced forkage.
ascii_field: (will accept blocks that are not, by the traditional bitcoin rules, valid. and predicate acceptance of future blocks on these turds - which is what 'accept a block' means)
ben_vulpes: what is a rewind attack?
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: being fed an alternate past
ascii_field: typically from when mining was considerably 'easier'
ascii_field: but not necessarily
ascii_field: (can be recent past)
ben_vulpes: i'm sure you've gone into this in depth, but doesn't the length of the current main chain make that ludicrously expensive?
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: why would it ?
ascii_field: certain variants of the attack are prohibitively costly, yes
ascii_field: others - no
ben_vulpes: which variants are cheap?
funkenstein_: !up ascii_field
ben_vulpes: aha the one where you simply hold difficulty constant and mine a long-ass chain.
funkenstein_: the chain with the most work demonstrated wins
ascii_field: or feeding a whole alternate universe to a virginal (has nothing but genesis) node
decimation: I donno, it strikes me that having a sundial and knowing how to use it (convert to universal time) is a pretty cheap counter
ascii_field: which yes, you can defend against with crude kludges like storing sums, but this is 'enumerated badness'
ben_vulpes: decimation: but then people would have to touch it !!111twelve1
ascii_field: decimation: now you have a human slave in the loop
ascii_field: straight to 'slavecoin'
ascii_field: don't even need a computer.
decimation: yeah, slave tells you time of day
ascii_field: and hashes with goose feather pen
ascii_field: as described in mircea_popescu's tale
decimation: well, if slave tells you time of day, the class of attacks you describe become much more difficult
ascii_field: except that the attacks now include having one's throat cut at night, aha
ascii_field: at any rate, we don't actually know how to do 'proof of work' thing using meat.
ascii_field: if we did, 'hawala' would have used it 2000 y ago.
decimation: yes, true.
ascii_field: in my mind, that's sorta the whole point of bitcoin.
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( )
ben_vulpes: (on the use of "torture" in the nyt)
decimation: why does the fact that your throat can be cut invalidate proof of work?
ascii_field: it doesn't
ascii_field: separate problems.
shinohai: I should say having one's throat cut invalidates a lot of things.
decimation: not for me
decimation: (your throat i mean)
ascii_field: the unfortunate thing is that the 'easy to verify, hard to produce' thing very much requires machines.
decimation: at any rate, I fully admit that bitcoin requires slaves to feed computers the right data and configure them
decimation wonders if skynet will need an 'economy' or will just directly solve the 'need things/have things' trade matrix
bagels7: i'll be your slave for a million dollars on a 5 year basis
ascii_field: decimation: do you know the story of how the concept of 'space station' came about?
decimation: not precisely no
ascii_field: well, afaik the 'precise' is not publicly known. but the ancient rumour that was taught to me was that it was a usg military propaganda trick
ascii_field: see, somebody's gotta change the vacuum tubes
ascii_field: in spy satellites.
ascii_field: except when they don't. then, suddenly, much less talk of space stations
decimation: yeah, that's true I think. the soviets believed it anyway
assbot: Almaz - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( )
decimation: su actually built 'manned spy satellites' - became 'civilian peace stations' in the 80's
ascii_field: just as usg turned their orbital nuke dropper into 'space shuttle'
decimation: but I do see your point, if we can make the hardware 'reliable'
ascii_field: a pogo, as i envision it, has much in common with a comm satellite
shinohai: Is there a history of the pogo somewhere?
ascii_field: shinohai: of the pogo as it comes from the vendor ?
ascii_field: or of our particular dealings with it
shinohai: Of your particular dealings. How the idea of using it came about.
shinohai: I was just curious.
assbot: Logged on 02-07-2015 17:52:19; ascii_field: shinohai: it all started with
ascii_field: mircea_popescu posed the question of what is the cheapest mass-produced piece of equipment that could be pressed into service to run therealbitcoin.
ascii_field: the answer turned out to be pogo.
ascii_field: by a factor of 6 or so.
ascii_field: mainly because it is (or rather was) sold far below cost by the manufacturer
ascii_field: who was pushing a weirdo 'cloud subscription' thing with it
shinohai: I am fascinated by how mircea_popescu envisioned that. I tried for well over a year to figure out how to busybox it.
shinohai: And failed.
ascii_field: shinohai: he didn't
ascii_field: just asked the question.
ascii_field: i answered it, experimentally
ascii_field: ported netbsd to the thing, too
ascii_field: which turned out to be a waste of time
ascii_field: (certain necessaries did not work correctly)
shinohai: I was hoping my pogo would arrive today, but postman has already come. :/
ascii_field: shinohai: most of what i've done re: therealbitcoin so far revolves around getting memory footprint under control
ascii_field: shinohai: pogo has 128M of ram, soldered on.
shinohai: And it is fantastic work, imho. My shell provider doesn't bitch at me about bandwidth anymore either.
williamdunne: Wait, people are successful at running bitcoin on summin with 128m of ram?
ascii_field: everything i did only ~increases~ bandwidth consumption
shinohai: For some reason mine has dropped, but probably because I'm not connecting to a bzillion nodes
ascii_field: (this was a node, i must remind the reader, with no mempool, on account of having no net connection and being fed blocks 'intravenously' if you will)
ascii_field: vertical axis is in kB
ascii_field: the thing here, as discussed in the past, is that 300 bytes (block header and overhead) are kept in ram at all times per ~known block~
ascii_field: now if the node is 'live' and has net connection, hears tx, suffers possible fragging (see old threads) - then even more consumption.
ascii_field: but what you see in that graph is the only 'leak' in the usual sense
ascii_field: as in, the one thing that is guaranteed to grow monotonically
assbot: Bitcoin Block #364463 ... ( )
shinohai: test
shinohai: !up ascii_field
assbot: HostFat comments on Bitcoin XT Status Update ... ( )
ascii_field: 'As you may have noticed, Bitcoin unfortunately has run out of capacity due to someone DoS attacking the network.'
ascii_field: 'run out'
ascii_field: 'someone'
ascii_field: 'bigger blocks'
ascii_field: (hearn, of course)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14762 @ 0.00056898 = 8.3993 BTC [-]
trinque: "I suspect it can be mitigated through heavier reliance on coin age priority, as coin age is not something that can be trivially bought on the spot, unlike fee priority."
trinque: same idiot argument re: spam as Luke-Jr
ascii_field: though gotta wonder if this is still fair to say re: a gigantic sack of shit with the words 'this is spam, and fuck you' printed right on it
ascii_field: (the tx sent to brainwallet('password') etc)
trinque: sure, one can imagine some sane criteria on determining spamitude
ascii_field: but aside from that, bidding up space in blocks by blowing one's own coin is a perfectly legit thing to do
ascii_field: as per the protocol rules
trinque: it's telling that they are not even willing to consider using, you know, a fucking market for this
ascii_field: if usg wants to spend its coin this way, it can
mats: its an ideological matter to hear Luke-Jr tell it
ascii_field: as i pointed out before, it is being done for two disjoint reasons. one is so that hearn can write the turd linked above, re: 'it is crowded and we need blocks of $maxint size'
ascii_field: the other is so that gavin & co. can try to persuade miners to use their turdball
mats: 'i dun wanna hold gigs of "spam" on my drive, and nobody else does either'
ascii_field: by promising 'tx fee ordering' as a feature
ascii_field: << the fucking market is there. nobody broke it. but to redditards, 'market won't supply me with free shit' == 'market has failed'
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 21:12:24; trinque: it's telling that they are not even willing to consider using, you know, a fucking market for this
trinque: right, I said this yesterday
trinque: stress test seems to prove the system works from where I sit
ascii_field: trinque: not if you ask the tards
ascii_field: for them, 'it broke'
ascii_field: because they can't send their 0.01 btc without fee
mod6: 'don't be poor'
ascii_field: one telling mark of a tard is that he is unwilling to consider that market's job is not only to supply folks with things, but to REFUSE to supply them
ascii_field: when they cannot pay
shinohai: my tunnel collapsed
shinohai: sorry for the flood
trinque: ascii_field: reminds me of mircea_popescu's recent comments to the effect of roughly "We've done it! I exist!"
trinque: cannot think of a more vulgar mentality
ascii_field: l0l wut
trinque: the redditard mentality
trinque: that the fact of their pulse is by itself something special and important
mats: we're all equals, man
mats: we must has equal outcomes or else fascism
assbot: Bitcoin Block #364467 ... ( )
thestringpuller: ascii_field: so what's the problem here?
thestringpuller: we get fee market. fuck the people who can't pay for their nice things
thestringpuller: get a fucking job already
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
thestringpuller: stop complaining about "waah my transactions is unconfirmed waaaah"
BingoBoingo just switched own nodes to 0.001 min fee for transaction relay
ascii_field: thestringpuller: ask'em
shinohai likes how BingoBoingo thinks.
ascii_field: thestringpuller: i'm not even certain that the 'ocean of complaint' consists of real people
ascii_field: rather than philippino meat puppets for-hire
BingoBoingo: Impact of my relay policy change on the network will be near nil, but policy is policy
funkenstein_: meanwhile litecoin users enjoying "stress test" popcorn
funkenstein_: i've never understood the philippino references i see here
ascii_field: funkenstein_: it's in the log
thestringpuller: !s philippino
assbot: 1 results for 'philippino' :
shinohai: !s philippino meat puppets for-hire
assbot: 0 results for 'philippino meat puppets for-hire' :
thestringpuller: !s phillipino
assbot: 2 results for 'phillipino' :
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2015 23:04:03; mircea_popescu: it was highlighted by intel about two weeks ago, and we're generally tracing it to philippines "top quality" content farms working for a number of (mostly ct and wash based) pr firms.
fluffypony: itt: nobody can spell phillllippppinnnnooooo
shinohai: i copy-pasta'd xD
ascii_field: see whole thread
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2015 23:03:08; mircea_popescu: "I've noticed certain repeating characteristic in the writing of many members of this forum: they construct grammatically correct sentences but absolutely disregard the underlying semantics: incoming vs. outgoing, local vs. remote, source vs. destination, etc. Here in regards to TCP/IP ports, but I observed that in regards to pretty much any technical issue."
williamdunne: It starts with an F? What's this shit
williamdunne: filipino
trinque: who gives a shit about arbitrary distinctions such as that?
trinque: only asciilifeform's test takers
trinque: and players of dwarf fortress
funkenstein_: bad spellers of the world: untie!
williamdunne: Sorta like how dyslexic is probably pretty hard to spell if you're dyslexic
assbot: Jokes - European Commission ... ( )
BingoBoingo is guessing that at some point Rubidium standards are going to become #b-a coture
BingoBoingo: Apparently Microshit is copying MP nao
assbot: Donate to the OpenBSD Foundation ... ( )
decimation: BingoBoingo: actually high quality ovenized quartz can be nearly as good as rubidium
BingoBoingo: Suffers labeling issues though. Hard to tell buy ordering if you get actual part or Chicom turd
decimation: not if you are willing to pay $$$
decimation: here's a reasonable text on celestial navigation
decimation: there is a description on how to derive time by measuring the moon's motion relative to other objects in the sky
decimation: actually better link to the book here
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the fixation on physical clocks, astronomical magic, etc. is unproductive re: the original problem posed.
asciilifeform: (though by no means useless in general)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Nah, for different, later problems
asciilifeform: we, afaik, do not have those problems yet. must still graduate to them.
BingoBoingo: At somepoint though we will have the problem on when to start decelerating the starship lest we crashland into Alpha Centurai
asciilifeform: right now we have the very different problem of how not to drown in own shit.
BingoBoingo: And the way to not drown might just be space ship
BingoBoingo: Or Space shit
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if you have a tip re: how to make perfectly synchronized with one another rubidium clocks materialize in the existing $20 pogos, i'm all ears..
BingoBoingo: No idea about that.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: might wanna read that thread, it's pretty lulzy
asciilifeform: it's where i describe how bitcoin is not actually decentralized at all, but depends on a thoroughly usgificated network of political clocks
decimation: ^ clocks that could be, but probably are not, checked for accuracy
BingoBoingo: I read the thread. closest I have to solutions are either Noping ft. meade off the earth into the sun or Noping out and taking stator to ALpha Centurai
BingoBoingo: But I dunno. Maybe at some point radio hashes happens.
BingoBoingo: Disguise the signal as over the horizon radar
BingoBoingo: And at that point why not have competing political time broadcast on that signal, signed
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it doesn't acvtually depend on it.
mircea_popescu: owner of node may choose to depend on it
mircea_popescu: otherwise, nothing keeps you from keeping your own time.
mircea_popescu: << no one can force them to know it was doxxed, either.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 18:06:08; ascii_field: gabriel_laddel: this doesn't help either. no one can force them to keep making the 'doxxed' chip.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 18:32:24; williamdunne: What happened to that German socialist girl, she ever come back to continue her derping?
decimation: also describing it as 'political time' when the policy is 'matches easily observable astronomical phenomena' seems a bit hyperbolic
mircea_popescu: and ftr she looked like a guy to me.
mircea_popescu: decimation time is not a natural phenomenon.
trinque: ^ found that googling as well
decimation: spacetime doesn't exist?
trinque: women in technology == technologically produced womyn
mircea_popescu: but that aside, this is conventional time.
mircea_popescu: spacetime is an artefact of the observation being carried out.
mircea_popescu: and also, it is not ~time~. it is space-time.
decimation: as opposed to what? being derived from platonic ideals?
mircea_popescu: as opposed to mass.
BingoBoingo: <decimation> spacetime doesn't exist? << It isn't space or time, merely the manifold until it is intuited by the apperception
decimation: same could be said of quarks
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 19:02:31; ascii_field: 'If you want to end ISIS, teach it game theory and casebooks. "They['ll] get out their linear programming charts, statistical decision theories, minimax solutions, and compute the price-cost probabilities of their transactions and investments, just like we do," and lose.' (from the al schwartz link earlier)
assbot: Logged on 20-06-2015 23:17:19; asciilifeform: but no, he wants to use what the gods gave him.
assbot: Logged on 20-06-2015 19:29:12; mircea_popescu: the notion that human agency is ever "effectual" is such rank nonsense to begion with, that a pretense of "saving action for optimal effect" can only be regarded in psychogenic terms
mircea_popescu: specifically, that if you wait for the "optimal" you're waiting forever.
mircea_popescu: decimation in any case, the time bitcoin uses is a political construct.
mircea_popescu: a matter of conventional agreementr, currently overseen by exactly usg.
mircea_popescu: unless you wish to experimentally prove that ~you~ can insert leap seconds into places.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 19:17:10; ascii_field: '12 years public school, 4 years undergrad, 6 years PhD, 4 years post-doc. You are now over 30, deeply in debt, and starting life. Your idiot high school classmate who held a STOP sign at a construction site has been pulling $80K/year, has a fine home, wife, three kids, and a motor boat. His eldest son rakes in $850K/year tax-free facilitating recreational pharmaceuticals and an escort service.' << schw
assbot: Hai sa facem o socoteala. on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
mircea_popescu: << this is a hollywood fiction. "the strong, silent type". not found in nature.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 19:38:22; ascii_field: one can have one coming out of ears and arse, and lack the other entirely
mircea_popescu: << this is not unlike inquiring "what makes the sterile woman the waste of chocolate that she is". she only becomes that if you put her in a matronly role. otherwise, i wouldn't want a fertile catwoman.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 19:46:07; ascii_field: what makes the exam champ the waste of oxygen that he is ?
mircea_popescu: so the problem there is of management not of nature. chinese exam taker is a great asset in any sanely balanced system.
mircea_popescu: and generally, the quality of a system is to be measured by how many people it can make life meaningful for, not how many people it has to kill to survive.
mircea_popescu: << consider many of the things we regularly discuss here. most people are neither willing to consider not even willing to look upon the outrage that goes on daily, hourly. be it icons of say badly beaten up women, or whatever else. plenty of people keep lists of words they won't ever say. this disinclination ~to consider~, however the subject justifies it, is the c
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 19:51:46; ascii_field: the 'capable' part is definitely key. who hasn't met his fair share of hack writers, for instance, poor schmucks grasping desperately for one singe original idea? and never finding it
mircea_popescu: ertainest macula of intellectual ineptitude.
mircea_popescu: fact is, if you're not willing to consider the things you aren't going to do, your not doing them is not any sort merit, and it certainly won't ever work in your favour.
mircea_popescu: << is this an actual perspective, or is it a knot of nonsense ?
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 19:55:54; trinque: if he in fact has the capability, then the empathy which might cause him to accept someone else's perspective instead would only be a hindrance
mircea_popescu: << this thing is such bs. if the intelligent need to whine on an obscure blog, and for "society" to GIVE THEM shit they're about as intelligent as a mensa chapter. which isn't all that flattering.
assbot: The Polymath Archives: The Inappropriately Excluded ... ( )
trinque: that's more or less what I got from asciilifeform, that he was describing a person which, to put it in idiot's terms "does what makes sense to him"
trinque: could not find much clinical "psychopathy" in that
trinque: which leads me to suspect the term itself is stupid
mircea_popescu: not sure i follow.
trinque: I (perhaps incorrectly) take "psychopath" to be a political term, akin to "sociopath"
trinque: the former something like "does what he wants to, even if people cry" and the latter maybe "lies to his enemies, effectively"
trinque: mostly just that; I hear these terms most often used by someone who thinks someone else has been unfair, and ought to be restrained by the state
trinque: was otherwise fishing for asciilifeform's definition of the term.
punkman: mircea_popescu: does romanian have a word for sociopath?
mircea_popescu: sociopat
mircea_popescu: just like in english, it doesn't actually mean anything, unlike english it is not used by the hipstery youth.
punkman: there's an academic word for it in greek, nobody ever uses it though
mircea_popescu: there is aschilopat, which is a purely nonsense word that is use to convey roughly the same notion, "invisible gross diformity worthy of pity" but it's blue collar slang mostly.
assbot: Sluggish schizophrenia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( )
trinque: !s borderline
assbot: 30 results for 'borderline' :
assbot: The Last Psychiatrist: The Diagnosis of Borderline Personality Disorder: What Does It Really Mean? ... ( )
assbot: The definitive tract on sociopathy on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 20:08:22; decimation: re: political time < it occurred to me that the far more obvious way of synchronizing a clock is to simply take note of the sunrise and/or sunset
trinque: "This is what sociopathy is : what the scum of the earth currently calls its betters." << right, soon to give way to "fagtalkers"
trinque: though one hopes it doesn't take long enough for that
trinque: I keep wanting to call that "inversion"
trinque: where something unnatural persists for so long it becomes the basis of comparison
trinque: eh unnatural is problematic
mircea_popescu: << this is an important point that i don't think asciilifeform fully digested. replay attacks that rely on block count do not work. actuall superior WORK has to be shown.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 20:35:49; funkenstein_: the chain with the most work demonstrated wins
punkman: mircea_popescu: I liked the toilet analogy
mircea_popescu: trinque magic thinking is this all through
trinque: mhm
mircea_popescu: punkman how far off do you think tyhat piece is, as a local ?
mircea_popescu: !up solrodar
solrodar: hello
punkman: mircea_popescu: close enough
mircea_popescu is impressed with himself.
mircea_popescu: hello solrodar. who're you ?
punkman: maybe a good time for a translation of the older ones? gtranslate not doing them justice
solrodar: mircea_popescu: one of your blog readers
solrodar: I've made an attempt at the call graph you requested
assbot: Call graph ... ( )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ^
mircea_popescu: solrodar do you know what gpg is ?
solrodar: yes, but not used it
mircea_popescu: solrodar consider register a signature with the bot.
mircea_popescu: registering*
mircea_popescu: also consider leaving a comment with the link and a functional email address on the trilema post.
mircea_popescu: (trying to make sure you can actually claim your prize - as it is anyone can in principle use a freenode nick)
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: None | Current Difficulty: 4.940201493122746E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 364895 | Next Difficulty In: None blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 13 hours, 16 minutes, and 1 second | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: !up solrodar
solrodar: !rate assbot 1 testing
assbot: You must be rated before you can rate.
ben_vulpes: !rate solrodar 1 doolb wen
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.solrodar.1:898d1835333b88e8a1aeafa9acb92bbad9b839fc1cf4135f8a2ea7ea45bf4c5f
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for solrodar with note: doolb wen
BingoBoingo: solrodar: Now !up yourself
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.00057586 = 6.3345 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 23:59:32; solrodar:
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 21:11:38; ascii_field: my patience for 'help the mouse find the cheese' ran out when i was four
solrodar: it's not great I know
solrodar: but if that's the actual structure of the code then what else can you do?
shinohai: I need a projector to see it
asciilifeform: solrodar: gonna tell me that the structure requires putting, e.g., CWalletDB::ReadBestBlock a mile away from AppInit2, even though the former connects to ~nothing else~ ???!!
asciilifeform: and see example of CreateNewBlock
asciilifeform: if you had ~only~ this chart,
asciilifeform: could you say what it calls ?
asciilifeform: i'd be lying if i said yes
asciilifeform: not trying to be a spoilsport, but pointing out fact
solrodar: yeah some things are oddly positioned
trinque: it's gonna take manual arrangement
trinque: no way around it
asciilifeform: trinque: i really don't understand why
asciilifeform: the most obvious problems have nothing to do with shortest paths
trinque: and/or some really nice force directed graph thing
trinque: of which I've found nothing but shit
asciilifeform: another problem is abominably small print
asciilifeform: at least 10% of the page should be occupied by letters.
solrodar: I don't think any amount of manual arrangement would shrink the overall size that much
asciilifeform: solrodar: tell you what. i'm not the one who put up the bounty (that was mircea_popescu) but i was the one who asked for the chart. if you can produce a dependency graph in s-expression format, embodying the info in this graph, ~and~ show me how to get same using open source utils, i will say the job is done
solrodar: there are so many edges that you need to leave space between the nodes to keep them from overlapping too much
asciilifeform: (the job won't be done, but it will become possible for me to do it)
asciilifeform: you know, there is no reason why all the letters have to be parallel with the bottom of the page
asciilifeform: plenty of room if you remove that limit
solrodar: I don't follow you
solrodar: what's parallel with what?
asciilifeform: the captions
asciilifeform: are all horizontal
asciilifeform: they don't have to be
solrodar: I don't see how changing that would give you more space
assbot: Last 9 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
asciilifeform: ferfuxxake
asciilifeform: i could draw the picture and explain. but then i will have drawn the picture
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( )
solrodar: I mean it's the positioning of the boxes which is the problem
BingoBoingo: The problem is the thing being modeled, hence the bounty
asciilifeform: !up solrodar
solrodar: you can get dot to lay the graph out from top to bottom rather than left to right, but it won't be any better
asciilifeform: wasn't the idea
asciilifeform: idea is, to make the text sit down at whatever angle is needed
asciilifeform: 31 degrees if need be
asciilifeform: to maximize space for the arrows.
asciilifeform: and other thing, if a node is a leaf of only one stem, it should be right next to it
asciilifeform: and not half the page away.
asciilifeform: there is room for this to be the case everywhere.
solrodar: yeah, I don't know why it doesn't always do that
solrodar: it's clearly doing it in some places
asciilifeform: because the tool is retarded
asciilifeform: i can use that tool too, you know.
asciilifeform: i don't need the garbage that comes out of codeviz or those other 3
asciilifeform: i need a usable graph
asciilifeform: this is probably more than 1 btc worth of work
asciilifeform: and so i'm not holding my breath waiting for it to get done by anybody.
solrodar: looks that way
solrodar: so if I provide the graph in s-expression format with instructions, do you have any specific plan for visualizing it?
solrodar: or you just want the data to experiment?
asciilifeform: but not only it, but a complete recipe whereby i can regenerate it.
solrodar: of course
asciilifeform: solrodar: might wanna ask mircea_popescu if he will award the prize for this item, which is not what he asked for, before putting in serious effort
solrodar: at this stage the only extra effort is to output it in sexpr format rather than dot format
solrodar: I'm already pulling the graph into a script to do some filtering
BingoBoingo wonders how his 0.7.2 qt build ever worked on OpenBSD
asciilifeform: thank you for the effort, solrodar
solrodar: because if you include all the low-level functions and bignum classes and so forth in the graph then it'll be 10 times worse
asciilifeform: eheheheeh wat
asciilifeform: these are missing?!!!
asciilifeform: then entirely useless
asciilifeform: i want every token
asciilifeform: in *.cpp and *.h
asciilifeform: in that tree.
solrodar: you can have every token
asciilifeform: gotta have those.
solrodar: including std:: and boost::
asciilifeform: how did you even choose what to exclude ?
solrodar: just remove the filters
asciilifeform: where did the filter come from ?
solrodar: started with the standard library
solrodar: then cut out nodes with very high in-degree which appeared to be low-level functions
punkman: btw aren't all those stacked "using namespace std;" "using namespace boost;" statements a bad idea?
asciilifeform: would like a way of adjusting this
solrodar: yeah, it's just a list of regexes, you can change them as you like
asciilifeform: << virtually all of them do, however. whether ~i~ choose to run ntp or not does not change the fact that the bulk of the network (including - though i can only suspect! - the mining bulk) does.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 23:15:17; mircea_popescu: owner of node may choose to depend on it
BingoBoingo: solrodar: If your recipe works a narrative of it could be welcome qntra material
asciilifeform: << i keep own time, and usg introduces leap second. now what
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 23:15:23; mircea_popescu: otherwise, nothing keeps you from keeping your own time.
solrodar: the one thing which is missing which you asked for is virtual function calls, which are only used in the keystore base class
asciilifeform: << it's why they produce incompatible ones regularly. because no way to know if it happened or not yet, save for passage of time
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 23:19:24; mircea_popescu: << no one can force them to know it was doxxed, either.
solrodar: they don't appear to be in the clang output
asciilifeform: solrodar: your tool doesn't see virtual functions ?
solrodar: it sees their implementations but it doesn't see calls to them via the virtual lookup mechanism
asciilifeform: solrodar: and how do you know that they are only used in keystore base class ?
solrodar: grep virtual *.h :)
asciilifeform: fair enough.
asciilifeform: << mircea_popescu misunderstood my point entirely. which was, that it is possible to have arbitrarily original ideas in, e.g., mathematics, while being certifiably worthless at 'making phriends and influencing people'
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 23:32:00; mircea_popescu: << this is a hollywood fiction. "the strong, silent type". not found in nature.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ... << i keep own time, and usg introduces leap second. now what << How often? A minute over a century and ignoring should be fine
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: and if they decide that 'national s33k0000r1ty' requires a leap week ?
asciilifeform: to thwart 'financial terrorizm!!!1111'
asciilifeform: (aka bitcoin use)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The time nerds burn the... Well QuickTrip and CVS were done so I guess WalMart
solrodar: !rate ben_vulpes 1 welcomed me to #b-a
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
asciilifeform: !rate solrodar 1 flow graphs
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP:
solrodar: !v assbot:solrodar.rate.ben_vulpes.1:be7ce5a08c6698de2492a0c464338aa0a12c9c6070b6d7a9a6feffbe27ef763a
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for ben_vulpes with note: welcomed me to #b-a
asciilifeform: !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.solrodar.1:0a8d0ab5914fc2d41371f84fe250e40f9eab92aab2afdf54f7774066895e50c5
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for solrodar with note: flow graphs
BingoBoingo: Leapweek would purely put USG time in the realm of clearly fiat time
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it was always fiat time
asciilifeform: just as argentine peso was fiat when it was still worth real money
asciilifeform: we haven't invented non-fiat time yet
BingoBoingo: Yes, even with the Romans fiat time. But poerverted like now dollar fiat time. At present still enjoy 1934 dollar fiat time
asciilifeform: (yes, decimation will teach you to tell epoch time within +/1 1000 by using the stars and moon. that does not change the essence of the fact that global epoch synchronized by machines is a fiat - specifically usg - creature)
decimation: asciilifeform: how is 'mean solar day is split into two parts; divided into 24 peices' fiat time?
decimation: you were the one arguing to ditch leap seconds
asciilifeform: it is fiat if i can't see the sun and rely on the kind to tell me
decimation: okay.
BingoBoingo: As far as I can tell time does not exist other than as a projection perpetrated by the brain
asciilifeform: this is a subtle point, granted
asciilifeform: and i don't expect everyone to grasp it immediately
decimation: time is absolute, space squishes and streches to nail to its strictures
decimation: asciilifeform: what does 'time outside of humanity' even mean?
BingoBoingo: decimation: Astronomical time is probelematic in that we do not know if LizardHitler mothership can subtly tow sun a few miles or give the moon a push
decimation: sure, he could do that
asciilifeform: decimation: 'outside of humanity' is a tall order. and not what anybody was asking for
asciilifeform: just needs to be 'outside' to the same extent bitcoin is (or naively appears to be)
asciilifeform: that is, massively resistant to organized diddling
decimation: what's the use of 'bitcoin outside of humanity'
asciilifeform: !s martian bank
assbot: 6 results for 'martian bank' :
decimation: even martians could live with a 24-hour earth day
decimation: 'dude just tell us how to set our clocks'
asciilifeform: because they can all see the sun
asciilifeform: and feel its warmth
asciilifeform: but say they lived underground, and could not.
asciilifeform: the sun is almost literally blinding decimation, making the problem look far easier than it actually is for us
asciilifeform: pogo cannot see the sun!
decimation: aye, that's a problem
decimation: but quite separate than 'we depend on time'
asciilifeform: it cannot see the moon, or the stars
decimation: I guess I just can't see 'we need to sun' to be a huge limitation on any human endeavour
asciilifeform: in so far as you, i, and every other fella on the net wants to know 'what second' it is 'right now', we are dealing in usgtronics
asciilifeform: because there is no other known way to do it
asciilifeform: within any kind of serious accuracy
decimation: yes, but that's conditional
decimation: and we don't need serious accuracy
decimation: +/- 5 min would be fine
decimation: or even more
asciilifeform: actually we do
asciilifeform: because drift
decimation: easily achieved with stopwatch and gnomon
asciilifeform: long enough at +/- 5m and we get >2h off
asciilifeform: and it's game over.
decimation: yeah but these aren't launching into space
asciilifeform: they sorta are.
decimation: can emerge, get reset
asciilifeform: not from under the bed of the gurlz mircea_popescu picks up and pogopregnates
decimation: well, if that were a hard spec I would agree, need txco or ocxo
decimation: and there's no way around it, if actual human cannot set
williamdunne: From the looks of things, S.MPOE used to have a thousand BTC or so volume per day
williamdunne: Pretty solid
decimation: or we cannot build a trusted network of time sources
asciilifeform: my argument was that this apparently-unsolvable problem can be solved
asciilifeform: if a certain constraint is loosenes
decimation: you mean modifying the bitcoind to accept wider windows of blocks?
BingoBoingo: <decimation> easily achieved with stopwatch and gnomon << This leads you to my world, where my mechinical autowinding watch is always perfectly accurate because I declare it so
asciilifeform: to have the concept of difficulty, nodes only need to know that time has passed, using a timebase that 1) is independent variable from aggregate hash 2) is prohibitively expensive to manipulate
decimation: BingoBoingo: can you use your winding to predict the sunrise
asciilifeform: i possibly have a scheme for this. but it won't help pogo, because this is no longer bitcoin
asciilifeform: right now i don't know how to help the pogo problem.
mats: recently S.MPOE has stood still
decimation: asciilifeform: you do, it involves hardware
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al were contemplating a surrender to ntp even.
mats: its a real bummer
decimation: unless you just want to give into ntp
BingoBoingo: decimation: Realtive to UTC, yes. I live about a minute in a half to UTC's future
asciilifeform: decimation: adding any hardware at all will raise the cost to where we no longer have anything over the phoundation.
asciilifeform: and their standard x86 turd boards.
decimation: well, if that's a hard spec, and 'launch into space' is a hard spec, the project is a failure
decimation: unless you are willing to accept the risk of a global ntp/router delay attack
BingoBoingo: to the extent ntp is depended upon by other implementations, it seems ntp servers may need to be polled. If they need to be polled the prolly ought to be polled at arc4random() intervals selecting arc4random() out of the pool each go
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: my concern was blackholing
decimation: BingoBoingo: ascii's argument is that method is defeated if enemy controlls isp
BingoBoingo: Serious concern
asciilifeform: where every single ntp query gets picked up by your isp and replaced.
asciilifeform: this is realistic, because nothing but pogo will seriously fail if this were done
asciilifeform: it's a cheap bullet with our name on it
decimation: I dispuse the 'nothing but pogo would fail'
decimation: plenty of shit is poorly engineered into depending on that kind of stuff
asciilifeform: say my isp makes all ntp queries chronically 3 minutes off into the past
BingoBoingo: Only way to truly defeat ISP is mock over the horizon radar which can force PCB to recieve all data as an involuntary antenna.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> say my isp makes all ntp queries chronically 3 minutes off into the past << Burn a Walmart
asciilifeform: eventually pogo drifts off into neverneverland
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: you won't know that you have segmented into a parallel universe
asciilifeform: not like pogo has a screen, where it tells you that it is (or is not) receiving valid blocks
asciilifeform: for that matter, 'you' may be one of mircea_popescu's pogopregnated chixxx
asciilifeform: and have no idea what a block is.
asciilifeform: or what that box he plugged into your wall is for
BingoBoingo: Perhaps L1 and L2 pogo impregnators should herd the impregnated pogos
asciilifeform: all ~100 of us ?
decimation: no just pogo but all ntp clients
decimation: and such an error, if it ends up driving the clock off by several minutes, would be detectable in a variety of ways
asciilifeform: detecting an off clock requires another
decimation: well, predicting sunrise for one
BingoBoingo: ABC, FOX, et al
asciilifeform: again with the sun and stars
decimation: some other isp client finds his computer is 'off'
asciilifeform: again with the human eyes and hands.
asciilifeform: i specified a problem. what is the point of saying 'no, let's solve this other trivial problem'
decimation: your scenario would imply that no human looks at the time served by said isp
asciilifeform: i already know how to do that.
decimation: I'm emphasizing the sun because that's the policy by which time is defined
decimation: usg didn't make this policy any more than england did
decimation: and usg fucking with the way computers distribute time would ultimately be noticed by some innocent bystander
asciilifeform: but we don't have a mechanism of syncing n-bit counters with second resolution across a planet that ~doesn't~ operate at hitler's pleasure.
decimation: don't need second resolution
asciilifeform: decimation: one very obvious way for it to fuck, and be noticed, is to simply fail
decimation: as in, terminate all ntp services?
asciilifeform: from lack of money to pay the electric bill, say.
decimation: I would also note that if the pogo clock varies in a systematic way (constant frequency error)
decimation: it could be corrected
asciilifeform: as far as i can tell, it does not.
asciilifeform: and the reason is no mystery
asciilifeform: (interrupts vary quite unpredictably)
decimation: yeah, makes sens
decimation: so if the pogo syncs to a random node once per month and keeps time within a few minutes, it'll be fine
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31452 @ 0.00057008 = 17.9302 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: is it vulnerable? yes. more vulnerable than proof-of-work? yes, if in the hands of an idiot
asciilifeform: random node ?
asciilifeform: which also gets to drift ?
decimation: ntp node
decimation: most ntp nodes are tracable to some source (yes often usg) to two layers
decimation: but that usg clock is depended on by and awful lot of shit
decimation: if usg starts messing with gps it would be quickly noticed and shouted at
asciilifeform: decimation: there is no reason why ~all~ ntp servers proper would have to be diddled
asciilifeform: just the queries from known bitcoin nodes
asciilifeform: incl pogo
asciilifeform: not like it's a secret who they are.
decimation: agreed, but to selectively fuck with known bitcoin nodes would imply the deployment of an awful lot of hardware and expertise globally
asciilifeform: tomorrow hitler says 'anybody talking on 8333 gets timewarped'
asciilifeform: won't affect anything else.
decimation: hitler spends $100 mil to do it?
asciilifeform: it's deployed!
asciilifeform: already!
asciilifeform: what do you suppose 'narus' makes ?
decimation: you think you could call up your local comcastic office, pretend to be hitler, and demand that a particular protocol be selectively fucked with?
asciilifeform: you - no
asciilifeform: the folks with the key to room 641a - yes
decimation: that's one chokepoint
asciilifeform: they don't work for crapcast either
asciilifeform: they come and go when they want.
decimation: no reason your ntp query need cross it
asciilifeform: it is merely an example
asciilifeform: of how it is done
decimation: yes, and I"m sure it's not cheap
decimation: nor easily mass deployed
asciilifeform: there is a 'room 641a' at every single major infrastructural junction
asciilifeform: certainly in nato-reich
decimation: not every isp office
asciilifeform: and similar in ru, cn
asciilifeform: every backbone.
decimation: so, don't cross backbones
decimation: or, cross several
asciilifeform: and the argument that some backwards isp, somewhere, may not be 'up to date', does not sway me.
BingoBoingo: I guess Bitcoin builds an Argentina, Phillipines, somolia, ISIS backbone and moves geographically
decimation: but your 'fucked with at the isp level' argument falls apart in that case
asciilifeform: at what level the fucking will be done, is debatable
asciilifeform: but that it is doable, and trivial, and can be carried out in such a way as to affect only known bitcoin nodes, seems obvious to me
decimation: I would agree that if the pogo needs to be launched into space, it wouldn't be such a bad thing if it knew where it was on the internet topology, especially relative to other bitcoin nodes
decimation: asciilifeform: it's possible but again it requires expertise and equipment
decimation: comcast can barely keeps the lights running
asciilifeform: comcast - sure
asciilifeform: upstream - no
asciilifeform: and this kind of dull, mechanistic diddlage is precisely what usg specializes in
asciilifeform: no imagination needed
asciilifeform: just mutilate packets if regexp matches.
decimation: what usg agency would perform this work domestically?
decimation: they ain't gonna do it for free
decimation: and 'fucking with bitcoin' is probably pretty low on usg's hitlist (not that it should be so low)
asciilifeform: how the hell would i (or anyone else) know where it is on what list ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's intel dept. - possibly
asciilifeform: but i don't get to say 'it's low on the list, let's all sleep'
BingoBoingo: I doubt that after today. After the Chicom stockmarket sell embargo and NYSE glitch
decimation: neither do I. but assuming the pogo isn't a complete bust, someone's gonna have to evaluate the risk
asciilifeform: my point is that this kind of attack is not only the kind of thing usg specializes in, but pretty much the only thing they know how to do at all
decimation: how would you know that, if you don't know the hitlist
asciilifeform: can't know. only conjecture.
asciilifeform: based on existing nonsense coming out of the we-don't-know-how-to-break-rsa-yet-agency
asciilifeform: no idea what the ~other~ nsa does
asciilifeform: that gun hasn't publicly fired yet.
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11000 @ 0.00056898 = 6.2588 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: << was linked as 'entomological sample' ! specifically, example of folks 'spinning their wheels'
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 23:39:06; mircea_popescu: << this thing is such bs. if the intelligent need to whine on an obscure blog, and for "society" to GIVE THEM shit they're about as intelligent as a mensa chapter. which isn't all that flattering.
asciilifeform: i bet if some helpful fella gave them a few kg of plastique each, they would put it to good use...
asciilifeform: just as mr stack probably would have
asciilifeform: and what, precisely, ought one expect of folks raised in a zoo?
asciilifeform: how do lions in the zoo get things, other than being 'given' ?
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 21:44:22; mircea_popescu: that's really the tension here : usians currently use the us like inept argentines: they huddle around the coast and pull their cocks.
assbot: A Map of the U.S. by Property Value Instead of Land Area - CityLab ... ( )
asciilifeform: the coasts are where usg hands out payola.
decimation: "The total value of all the residential property in Kentucky ($300 billion) falls just short of the value of all the housing property in Queens ($317 billion). The housing value of the Upper East Side all by itself is greater than that of six states."
asciilifeform: hence folks live there.
asciilifeform: it hands it out there for historical reasons (it is where the majority of the chump candidates live, given as that is where the anthill mega-cities are found)
asciilifeform: on account of having been built there back when actual honest commerce was a thing
asciilifeform: but point of fact is, to ~me~ kentucky may as well be pluto
asciilifeform: and to everyone i know.
BingoBoingo: decimation: Too be fair Kentucky isn't "flat" enough for intentive Monsanto'ing
decimation: asciilifeform: it's actually a pretty nice place
asciilifeform: pluto is nice too, i hear
asciilifeform: in its own way
decimation: nydwracu pointed out how coast elites treat anywhere 100 miles inland in the us as 'foriegn country'
BingoBoingo: Kentucky is beautiful. Like Southern Illinois, but entirely politically divorced from Chicago aside from Obola
asciilifeform: because it is.
asciilifeform: because wtf can you live on there.
BingoBoingo: <decimation> nydwracu pointed out how coast elites treat anywhere 100 miles inland in the us as 'foriegn country' << I prefer this arrangement
asciilifeform: that's what 'foreign country' even ~means~, historically
asciilifeform: that one is not wanted there.
asciilifeform: kentucky, or argentina, etc, literally don't need me in particular for anything but 'weight in pork'
asciilifeform: if that.
asciilifeform: doesn't mean that i dislike those places, or their inhabitants
asciilifeform: ar, in particular, i liked very much.
asciilifeform: and the inhabitants.
decimation: yeah, I get it, the meatwot is important
decimation: also being within 'reasonable transport' distance of good food, places of learning, etc
decimation: I predict that if the 'hyperloop' actually works (dubious) it would rot the suburbs around megacities
decimation: a sizable chunk of the wash dc population would move 100-200 miles away if they could commute in 15 minutes
decimation: if not farther
decimation: !up The20YearIRCloud
The20YearIRCloud: It's alive!
williamdunne: What's alive?
The20YearIRCloud: Boy I had a crappy day, one of the renters called me and nothing would drain. Only to find out they've been parking a car on the main drain line. I offered to go out rather than my crew to take care of it, 3hrs later and $400 we've determined that it's all due to someone parking on the drain line and actually pushing it out of the fittings.
The20YearIRCloud: The chat!
asciilifeform: wai wat
asciilifeform: these drains are made of rubber ?!
Vexual: u charged 400?
asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: how is it even physically possible ?
asciilifeform: i, for instance, park on top of my house's drain pipe every single day.
decimation: yeah, like did they forget to use pvc cement?
The20YearIRCloud: loose soil, 3000lbs car sitting on it ~10hrs/day
asciilifeform: i know where it is, because the city excavated it last year.
asciilifeform: it is two metres under the asphalt.
The20YearIRCloud: there was a 8ft PVC section between two clay drain sections
The20YearIRCloud: This was 4ft under soil
decimation: clay drain? Like terra cotta?
The20YearIRCloud: 110 year old drain
asciilifeform: where was this? africa ?
The20YearIRCloud: still works somewhat well, but parking on it certainly hasn't helped things
The20YearIRCloud: Part of that $400 was to have a guy come out with a camera and inspect the line
Vexual: plus cakes for you while u lurk?
decimation: the 'loose soil' must be underneath the pipe
decimation: I would guess the drain is eroding the surrounding soil
The20YearIRCloud: Quite possibly, there's a concrete walkway that's actually sunk down about 6"
asciilifeform: << remember how the spiel went when the highways were built ?
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 02:22:22; decimation: a sizable chunk of the wash dc population would move 100-200 miles away if they could commute in 15 minutes
Vexual: is it being dug up now?
decimation: asciilifeform: except the highways were ultimately not built
asciilifeform: the only thing new infrastructure is used for, in usa, is to pack in more chumps for same kind of life.
asciilifeform: there will simply be more folks who get to drive the obligatory 1-2 hr
decimation: md 200 should be a full freeway, connect with 95 on at least two other river crossings
asciilifeform: and if it were ?
asciilifeform: they'd just put 2x as many 500k houses in.
decimation: asciilifeform: yes but I'm convinced the reason that people live 2 hours away is because of zoning policy
decimation: could easily fit the entire metro area's population inside the beltway (affordably) if you could build 50 story highrises
decimation: but there's this weird need to have 'own country estate' in the us
asciilifeform: not weird at all
asciilifeform: ~i~ want to put as much distance as possible between own arse and these folks.
asciilifeform: it makes god's own sense to me
asciilifeform: that they would feel same way.
decimation: actually I agree with you, I feel the same way to some degree
decimation: my theory is that the space you had as a child 'imprints'
decimation: city kid can live in apartment for life
decimation: suburb kid needs a suburb
The20YearIRCloud: Not all people are like that, in Columbus they're building lots of 30-40 story apartments because people want em
asciilifeform: i grew up in a city
The20YearIRCloud: They're relatively cheap - $150k-$200k in really well-to-do areas, people want em because they're in the middle of everything and cheap
asciilifeform: but it had almost no traffic
Vexual: opposition leader is explaining to the royal commission here on tv, how to build roads that don't need fixing all the time
The20YearIRCloud: But personally, I'd never want to live there
asciilifeform: so traffic noises drive me batshit
asciilifeform: as do screaming morons
decimation: The20YearIRCloud: yeah but in columbus at least it is legal to build more than 5 stories
asciilifeform: we didn't have those, either
The20YearIRCloud: Correct, why it's cheap
trinque: I spent time on a large farm as a kid, cannot stand the population density of cities
trinque: so naturally I live in one
The20YearIRCloud: I can't wait to go back to a farm setting
trinque: just the background noise is irritating, like living in an engine room
The20YearIRCloud: I don't like that, but i REALLY don't like not being able to stand on the back porch and not see anything
decimation: but this means that there are probably many people who are 'trapped' - desire more space between themselves and others - but cannot move away in order to keep a job
The20YearIRCloud: As it stands now ,if I do that here I see tall grass, a trailer, a half plywood house, then a large agricultural facility
trinque: The20YearIRCloud: ah man, best thing in the world is to not see another human in any direction
decimation: 70-80% of the population in cities ?
trinque: but to each his own
asciilifeform: what trinque said
The20YearIRCloud: Off the back porch on the farm, the closest house was 2mi
asciilifeform: except that i also want to not have to see them ever
decimation: asciilifeform: you should buy a farm in kentucky
asciilifeform: that sounds like actual work
asciilifeform: fuck that
The20YearIRCloud: We have areas here in ohio that have less population than many in kentucky
decimation: go 'full perelman'
asciilifeform: perelman, as i understand, lives off his mother's pension.
trinque: I'm thinking getting some land in Washington state might be ideal
decimation: trinque: not west of the mountains?
trinque: close enough to drive to seattle shortly, but far enough to not know it
decimation: !up warptangent
decimation: !up Vexual
trinque: decimation: not sure, I've yet to spend time east of them
trinque: maybe there's something nice down 90 waiting for me
phf: i lived 8 hours north of anchorage for 6 months or so, working remote. when i get out of the house in the morning my ears would heart from the silence. best 6 months of my life
trinque: sounds lovely.
The20YearIRCloud: hurt or heart?
The20YearIRCloud: Silence? No wind or animals?
trinque: and the concentration that can be mustered (in my case at least) cannot be matched inside the engine room
phf: The20YearIRCloud: after a bit your start hearing the trees lightly creaking in the wind
The20YearIRCloud: I know on the farm it wasn't really ever quiet, there was always something
The20YearIRCloud: but going from that to the city is very, very hard
asciilifeform: another device that did not exist in the city where i grew up was: the subwoofer
trinque: sure, wind, bugs
trinque: but things your mind is quite used to
decimation: asciilifeform: especially mobile ones?
asciilifeform: any kind
phf: The20YearIRCloud: this was on denali highway which is a kind of a wind tunnel nearby from a glacier. most of it is freezing all the way till mid summer (though i don't know, i spent a winter there)
decimation has subwoofers, but attenuates by 30 dB at least
trinque: as opposed to the hiss of hydraulic brakes, blare of horns, rumble of combustion engines
decimation: I find it really annoying to have muddled bass
Vexual: alf had a crystal set
trinque: bugs I can tune out easily
asciilifeform: it isn't even that su didn't know how to make loudspeakers
asciilifeform: but that the idea of turning one on inside a block of flats...
phf: The20YearIRCloud: but when the wind dies down (mornings mostly) it's what i would call dignified solitude. mountains, quiet. lots of interesting people living within 100 mile range :>
Vexual: for a day of funk phreakers blowing holes in speakers, a discussion on silence is delicious
Vexual: you'd notice a bear from miles away
Vexual: and the inverse i guess
mircea_popescu: << the going rate in that market is a few hundred.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 20:42:45; bagels7: i'll be your slave for a million dollars on a 5 year basis
mircea_popescu: an' for that matter the "basis" doesn't work like you imagine it does.
Vexual: hey funk i saw clinton play, guy made ozone, ya could smell it
phf: Vexual: kodiak bears stay away mostly. sometimes you get teenage bears looking for trouble, but i've only heard second hand stories
Vexual: what happenis if theres a bear looking for trouble? do you run away?
mircea_popescu: << yeah lol, that'll work better than befoar.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 21:13:37; ascii_field: the other is so that gavin & co. can try to persuade miners to use their turdball
phf: bear mace :)
Vexual: kinda short range ??
phf: that specific breed of bears is tame. mostly you spook them and they run away, or you stay and wait for them to sniff and leave. after a few encounters like that the idea of macing a bear from close range doesn't seem particularly disconcerting
funkenstein_: Vexual, awesome :) where was the show?
Vexual: bluesfest byron bay
funkenstein_: were you singing?
Vexual: no, i din't even yell out
funkenstein_: lol yeah right
funkenstein_: this year?
mircea_popescu: >> pretty much. reddit being shut out of bitcoin is a sign of bitcoin working correctly.
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 21:17:35; ascii_field: one telling mark of a tard is that he is unwilling to consider that market's job is not only to supply folks with things, but to REFUSE to supply them
Vexual: few years back, i forget
mircea_popescu: reddit then creating a new dogecoin to serve its perceived needs is a sign of reddit staying reddit, which is top say fucktarded and unable to learn from its mistakes.
mircea_popescu: this is a necessity, given that reddit simply is "that collection of people at the age and level of stupidity of a redditard"
mircea_popescu: so, whatever, dogecon, keisercoin, auroracoin, gavincoin, blablacoin, let the kids have fun
funkenstein_: better than playing video games
funkenstein_: well, mostly ;)
mircea_popescu: the shitty videogames they have now, for sure.
mircea_popescu: also better than watching vr mj or whatever it is emi puts out
funkenstein_: reminds me, showed girl b-a channel yesterday. respones, wow cool.. people chat online who aren't just trying to get laid?
mircea_popescu: lol how did she meet you ?
funkenstein_: er, you got me there
mircea_popescu: who else has she met ? :D
funkenstein_: one never knows, could be more but not so few as indicating severe problems
mod6: height=363734 << wedged here for ~2 hours.
mod6: I don't see any attempt to reorg... but i'm gonna increase the db locks * 2 and see if that changes anything.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 00:53:52; asciilifeform: at least 10% of the page should be occupied by letters.
mircea_popescu: mod6 iirc asciilifeform saw the same wedge spot for a bit.
mod6: yeah, im fairly sure that he did.
mod6: asciilifeform: what did you do to bypass this, i thought i read you reconnected with -addnode or did you just /wait/ for a long period?
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 01:17:02; asciilifeform: << virtually all of them do, however. whether ~i~ choose to run ntp or not does not change the fact that the bulk of the network (including - though i can only suspect! - the mining bulk) does.
mircea_popescu: << bitcoin actually has enough power structure to enforce a uniform rejection of usg leap second.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 01:17:38; asciilifeform: << i keep own time, and usg introduces leap second. now what
mircea_popescu: this is a power not to be neglected in the slightest.
mircea_popescu: it already allows me to publicly mock all sorts of traditional power structures, reject nist, what have you.
decimation: wait, to be anti-leap second is to be pro-'usg controls time'
decimation: the policy becomes 'time is what my clock in my fortress says' not 'what the sun does'
mircea_popescu: << i didn't misunderstand it. i simply do not credit it at all, just like i don't credit that an object could be arbitrarily pink but shapeless.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 01:22:46; asciilifeform: << mircea_popescu misunderstood my point entirely. which was, that it is possible to have arbitrarily original ideas in, e.g., mathematics, while being certifiably worthless at 'making phriends and influencing people'
mircea_popescu: decimation there is no "sun does" immediately. sun doesn't. what there is, is, "here's what i say the sun does".
decimation: umm okay
assbot: This is why medicine is not a liberal profession, but a servile career on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( )
BingoBoingo: <trinque> close enough to drive to seattle shortly, but far enough to not know it << I would not mind life in Duquoin Illinois if I could support myself there. Trains to Chicago and St Louis, bars walkable. Secondary State Fair. Just everything else... ick
decimation: the only reason leap seconds are even a thing is because clocks have become more precise than the sun
funkenstein_: the concept of "fiat time" is interesting. If we are going to think about what is money ourselves instead of believing the guy in the funny hat, should we also do the same when asked what time it is?
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ turtles all the way down.
decimation: funkenstein_: sure, but note that humanity has a pretty solid informal standard going, has for a long time
mircea_popescu: decimation if this facetious "precision" were the point, it wouldn't be t here and t+1 hour a km away.
asciilifeform: << moved the clock. hence the clock thread.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 03:17:08; mod6: asciilifeform: what did you do to bypass this, i thought i read you reconnected with -addnode or did you just /wait/ for a long period?
mircea_popescu: it's not precision. it's political influence.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> ... << the going rate in that market is a few hundred. << I read the original message as hope for a winning "ticket"
decimation: okay, if it's political influence, what's the policy?
mircea_popescu: there is no policy.
mircea_popescu: "do what we tell you - it's a useful habit for later"
funkenstein_: decimation, not really.. the adjustments are to sync the cycles together
mircea_popescu: it is. just, wrong source.
asciilifeform: << if mircea_popescu has figured out how to 'reject usg time', i'm all ears.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 03:18:58; mircea_popescu: << bitcoin actually has enough power structure to enforce a uniform rejection of usg leap second.
decimation: funkenstein_: you mean leap seconds?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if bitcoin nodes agree to any different time, it's rejected.
asciilifeform: how are they to agree ?
mircea_popescu: again, the possibility is here more important than the actuality.
funkenstein_: yeah. the mayans had a better system
mircea_popescu: never you mind.
asciilifeform: we haven't invented the mechanism !
asciilifeform: 'if enemy comes, we will shoot him with death ray'
decimation: funkenstein_: you are confusing calendar and clock
asciilifeform: 'what death ray'
mircea_popescu: you've just described "atomic balance"
mircea_popescu: or w/e it's called.
asciilifeform: i described the 'death ray balance' envisioned by tesla.
asciilifeform: who, as far as we know, did not actually have a working electron cannon
asciilifeform: but 'so close' in his own mind.
BingoBoingo notes that in most client software not handling leap seconds seems safe
assbot: Handling Leap Seconds the OpenBSD Way ... ( )
mircea_popescu: no, the thing they spent a trillion to build missiles and subs
decimation: there are three important periodic behaviours. the orbit of the earth about the sun, (lesser - moon about the earth), the rotation of the earth about its axis, and the vibration of cesium atoms. leap seconds syncronise earth's rotation with cesium. calendar synchronizes earth's rotation with its orbit
BingoBoingo: <decimation> the only reason leap seconds are even a thing is because clocks have become more precise than the sun << No, it is because Sun and Cesium disagree
asciilifeform: decimation: vibrations of atom don't come with indices. nor do sunrises.
asciilifeform: is this such a difficult concept ?
decimation: nope, nor do years
decimation: it's not to me
mircea_popescu: << i really don't think that's the primary mission for it
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 01:34:14; asciilifeform: not from under the bed of the gurlz mircea_popescu picks up and pogopregnates
funkenstein_: decimation, you miss the long cycle, but thanks for the distinction between leap second and leap year
decimation: yet, I can use cesium to predict sunrises and use sunrises to predict cesium
asciilifeform: i must confess that i'm not 100% clear on the primary mission. but did have the distinct impression that it involves making use of net jacks that don't have literate and attentive humans attached to them
mircea_popescu: the idea was to make use of net jacks in people's houses
mircea_popescu: ~people~s.
decimation: if we were to ditch leap seconds, I would need to know the 'current delta' to predict cesium from sunrises and vice versa
BingoBoingo watches "Gladiator(2000)" for the first time. Damn the Nordic system sucks.
mircea_popescu: "so you'd like to learn more about bitcoin ? here's a pogo and here's a webpage, make it work"
asciilifeform: and what of cuckoldry ?
asciilifeform: ethernet jack in broom closet ?
decimation: "Step one: configure an accurate ntp server. if you don't know how to check the time, ask your parents"
asciilifeform: that's where $20 pogo really shines
asciilifeform head-desks
decimation: or alternatively "Step one: after booting, ensure the pogo has acquired accurate time"
decimation: asciilifeform does have a good point, it seems like a 'sealed system' would have a wider application
asciilifeform: the ~only~ advantage pogo has over pc
asciilifeform: is that you can stuff it in broom closet, camouflage with old bum rags, get on motorcycle and never see the place again.
decimation: better yet, build one in the shape of a power strip (with wifi) and install in local starbucks
asciilifeform: sorta like what aaron swartz went around doing before he was hanged
asciilifeform: decimation: no upnp in starbucks
asciilifeform: gotta have that external 8333
decimation: yeah that's a major sticking point
decimation: upnp hardly works anywhere
decimation: other than as an orifice
asciilifeform: the most problematic aspect, possibly
asciilifeform: i suspect that perhaps 1 in 5 pogos will actually run
asciilifeform: solely on account of this
decimation: you might be able to hijack "STUN" servers meant for sip
decimation: but they might only tunnel udp
asciilifeform: lol, fat lot of good that does.
BingoBoingo: By argument via Hollywood /me has no idea how Romans beat Spartans to conquer Greece
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12812 @ 0.00056898 = 7.2898 BTC [-]
assbot: Interactive Connectivity Establishment | Internet Society ... ( )
assbot: rfc5766-turn-server - High-performance free open source TURN and STUN Server implementation. VoIP media traffic NAT traversal and gateway. TURN client library included. - Google Project Hosting ... ( )
decimation: ^ would create a choke point of course
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as i said, this wasn't to my mind related to the p2p relay thing
asciilifeform: umm let's ~not~ tunnel through microshit ??
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha i know
mircea_popescu: we will never have enough of these to simply throw away either
mircea_popescu: you realise
asciilifeform: throw away, no
mircea_popescu: this is a $100 dollar gift, why make it to idiots.
asciilifeform: deploy in places where pc cannot work - yes
mircea_popescu: well, an item has the advantage that it can be used as it can be used, rather than as can be intended.
asciilifeform: also 'never say never'
mircea_popescu: but the idea throughout, at least in my head, was to have something to give new bloods
asciilifeform: at some point i ~will~ locate the pieces to make something like pogo en masse
asciilifeform: hell, 'hootoo' would be it right now if we could sit down in 32m.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 01:40:33; asciilifeform: this is realistic, because nothing but pogo will seriously fail if this were done
asciilifeform: i'll bite. what else will perma-wedge if usg clock moves 2h into the past for a day ?
asciilifeform: it can be passed off as 'botched daylight savings' in my locale
decimation: bank, local merchant shop cash register, games, winblowz, local govt, etc
asciilifeform: winblows - reboot as always
decimation: and that's the unimportant shit
asciilifeform: merchant shop - fails every other day
mircea_popescu: decimation: what usg agency would perform this work domestically? asciilifeform:at&t. << top kek
decimation: what do trains, planes rely on?
asciilifeform: all of it is reparable because it customarily breaks every morning six times before breakfast
asciilifeform: like all of fiatworld
asciilifeform: esp on winblowz
mircea_popescu: you're moving your goalposts asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: yes the shop fails every other day.
mircea_popescu: it still would fail.
asciilifeform: btw this is not uncommon where i live
asciilifeform: quite often 'creditcard machine ain't working today. but we dusted off this carbon paper and press...'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8888 @ 0.00056898 = 5.0571 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: << argentine govt does exactly same stupid failure mode bs
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 02:13:37; asciilifeform: the coasts are where usg hands out payola.
asciilifeform: at any rate, down in the log, i point out that it would be absolutely trivial to serve diddled ntp solely to known btc nodess.
mircea_popescu: borrows in europe, distributes loot to people in capital
asciilifeform: where else? in pampas, to the pampas cats?
mircea_popescu: why the fuck do these schmucks need as much as a cigarette butt ?
mircea_popescu: give it to the people going deeply inside.
decimation: I think "absolutely trivial" is a bit of an overstatement
mircea_popescu: that way you won't lose wars with fucking peri
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. like the us did it back when it mattered.
mircea_popescu: 50 acres and a mule, if you swear to never go to town
asciilifeform: that was before monsanto and winblowz-traktor
mircea_popescu: they wanna be independent
mircea_popescu: and "patria doesn't give blowjobs" bs
decimation: those 50 acres are either owned by monsanto or abandoned today
mircea_popescu: one of the lulziest electroal slogans here (in the line of "podremos vivir mejor", of course) was... "hay mas futuro"
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
mircea_popescu: hipster country.
mircea_popescu: who the fuck even comes up with this shit. "there's future left"
decimation: sounds like an obamaism
asciilifeform: 'no there isn't'
decimation: "we are the ones we have been waiting for"
decimation: "things are getting better comrades"
mircea_popescu: "that's not the plumber in your mother's bedroom"
mircea_popescu: actually this could be a film.
decimation: asciilifeform: what does it say?
asciilifeform: 'living's become better, living's become merrier'
asciilifeform: famously attributed to stalin circa '37
decimation: heh yeah
mircea_popescu: well... keynesian logic. if consumption drives production then clearly the economy's never been ion a better shape
asciilifeform: << would like to see this expanded if mircea_popescu has time.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2015 03:21:46; mircea_popescu: << i didn't misunderstand it. i simply do not credit it at all, just like i don't credit that an object could be arbitrarily pink but shapeless.
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