Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-05-17 | 2015-05-19 → ↓
justJanne: Using only 16-bit Keys, cause everything else would be overkill.
BingoBoingo: In the calculus series classes test questions were taken from the homework, which was conducive to drinking whiskey before tests.
justJanne: For RSA you obviously need groups, spaces, bodies, rings, etc.
mircea_popescu: or rote.
justJanne: Bbl.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1135682 << because the last mile MUST be decentralized
assbot: Logged on 17-05-2015 23:34:39; williamdunne: Read the article, and I still don't see how that makes it bad for the last mile
mircea_popescu: that's the entire fucking point.
mircea_popescu: having a central (marketplace = central) for it is about as stupid as fire extinguishers loaded with gasoline.
mircea_popescu: it all stems from a very funamental confusion as to what things are andwhat technology can do. the idea being that technology = magic, and so it can change the nature of things. take marketplaces, which are by nature centralizing, and magic them into being decentralising. meanwhile irl, technology works to increase quantitatively, not to alter qualitatively.
assbot: Logged on 17-05-2015 23:39:53; pete_dushenski: williamdunne i really have nfi what the first trade was. if you say it's weed, we'll go with that, but that doesn't mean that first=best
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1135696 << maybe they could make them also fly, i'd donate.
assbot: Logged on 17-05-2015 23:41:43; williamdunne: Disagree with the cause, but pretty cool project IMIO
BingoBoingo: !up btcg
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 00:14:21; ben_vulpes: trying out a new fried chicken joint
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 00:38:24; pete_dushenski: "solidarity forever", "ticky tacky houses", etc.
mircea_popescu: something to do with bare adolescentine breasts, one would hope, for the sake of everyone's sanity ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22750 @ 0.00028902 = 6.5752 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 00:58:08; mats: http://www.metacritic.com/movie/mad-max-fury-road << surprised metacritic treats it so well
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron i'm not closer to comprehension
mircea_popescu: but she's REALLY bad. i mean sweet singer of michigan level bad.
assbot: Logged on 12-05-2015 22:05:41; mircea_popescu: "here i sit in a prefab vinyl siding plebhousing unit, burning a 50 dollar bill" ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135840 << learned to maff in kindergarten, check (c3 folks know what this is about lolk) ; reverse-hacked leet online haxxors, exposed irc chatroom, check. alfie baby...
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 01:35:23; justJanne: Sometimes when I get DDoSd I run nmap against the attacking servers, one time I found a small IRC server with only one channel, in which were 256 clients all with just a number as name, and one other client sending specific commands every few minutes
asciilifeform: 256 clients all with just a number as name... << SOP. one (at least formerly common) botkit which did this was 'athena.' many others likewise.
asciilifeform: barbaric but reasonably resilient (herder would hardcode several boxes to act as irc servers, several controlled by himself normally and a few reasonably lax public irctrons)
asciilifeform: (just google 'slowloris' - for some reason ddos command was always given this name)
asciilifeform: 'During that time, attackers were able to monitor the activities of anyone using the kernel.org servers known as Hera and Odin1, as well as personal computers belonging to senior Linux developer H. Peter Anvin. The self-injecting rootkit known as Phalanx had access to a wealth of sensitive data, possibly including private keys used to sign and decrypt e-mails and remotely log in to servers. A follow-up advisory a few weeks lat
asciilifeform: er opened the possibility that still other developers may have fallen prey to the attackers.'
asciilifeform caught up with log, links, overwhelmed by sheer retardation of the pg wank circus, maxxed out dosimeter
BingoBoingo: Probably for the best
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the animals in the photo at bottom of your latest article look like guinea pigs
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38800 @ 0.0002857 = 11.0852 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30650 @ 0.00027879 = 8.5449 BTC [-] {3}
asciilifeform: the mis-spellings are a deliberate trollage, or what.
asciilifeform: 'phunctor' ?!
BingoBoingo: lolocoaster
asciilifeform: anyone with an account (yes, they require one even for 'anonymous' comments) is welcome to post one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform notice that idiots are doing their pressing. "If I wanted to poison HPA with a fake key, why would I create a degenerate one? A fake key with strong factors would have gone unnoticed, at least by this analysis"
mircea_popescu: right, because poisoning hpa was the idea, not poisoning others.
mircea_popescu: team meade scores another hit on their imaginary, wildly irrelevant scoreboard. for which they get paid. with tax dollars. by idiots.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not deliberate trolalge, deliberate damage control. can't google misspelled terms
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha
mircea_popescu: again. team meade scores another hit on their imaginary, wildly irrelevant scoreboard.
mats: this is badly written
mats: as though no editor was involved at all
asciilifeform: mats: haste - makes waste
asciilifeform: or how'd it go
mircea_popescu: ‘Holy shit, they broke RSA!’ or ‘This is false advertising, they didn’t really do anything!’ imbeciles, << no but it's THE CONTROVERSY
mircea_popescu: aaaaand fort meade scoressssss again!111 on their ...
mats: 'phunctor', thins instead of things, using 'Loper-OS' and 'Loper-os', shitloads of passive tense sentences...
asciilifeform: they must employ the residents of a home for the profoundly retarded
asciilifeform: is the inescapable conclusion.
mats: er, passive voice.
asciilifeform: for anyone still awake, i'm presently wondering re: how the rotten keys behave in autoverifier scripts (debian ? etc)
asciilifeform: worth considering - where are they likely to come into play (as fetched from sks)
mircea_popescu: hmm, anyone has a ready link to the discussion of the reddit deleting the blockchain thing because they had so much fucking consensus it ended up imploding under their feet ?
mircea_popescu: worth a test.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a screenshot image, linked in a trilema article
asciilifeform: can't recall presently, where.
mircea_popescu: ah was trilema huh. brb
asciilifeform: what even.
mircea_popescu: i dunno but it seems serious.
mircea_popescu: halp halp i've been lyfthreatenet across hte internets
mircea_popescu: this constitutes harassment in zoe quinn degree. i now must have my own oprah show.
mircea_popescu: !up joshbuddy
mircea_popescu: in other news, the next batch of usg dept of internet outsourcers, to replace the current batch of third worlders : http://i.imgur.com/9EG2jYA.gifv
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62159 @ 0.00027873 = 17.3256 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48250 @ 0.00027944 = 13.483 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14474 @ 0.00028126 = 4.071 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21200 @ 0.00028787 = 6.1028 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35200 @ 0.00027723 = 9.7585 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48100 @ 0.00029087 = 13.9908 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: !up zlrth
BingoBoingo: !up referredbyloper
mircea_popescu: LC^ go ahead ?
LC^: mircea_popescu: Hi. Can we chat privately?
mircea_popescu: i don't know you, so no.
LC^: I'm a journalist. I shared my identity via privmsg.
mircea_popescu: that's fine, but it doesn't help.
mircea_popescu: the right move would be to get in the wot, cultivate your presence here afterr which next time you may have an angle.
mircea_popescu: at the moment, you do not.
LC^: I want to write an article about your Phuctor-related findings.
BingoBoingo: LC^: You may also want to hang around for when Stan wakes up
LC^: so wanted to get your opinion on the issues that have been raised, mainly that the first key was not signed by the owner so was likely added by someone else, with or without malicious intent.
LC^: and whether the other keys that have been factored are similar
LC^: or are there indications that they've been generated by a broken generator
LC^: I guess that is the main problem you're trying to highlight, correct? that some generators might be broken and generate weak keys
mircea_popescu: there is at least one key with a p over nine digits.
mircea_popescu: there are all sorts of classes of broken keys, which we're obviously still sorting through.
mircea_popescu: that aside, the question of how exactly weak keys came to be, and what are they doing there and so on and so forth is not nearly as uninteresting as the usg agency would like to make it.
LC^: are you suggesting that some software was intentionally sabotaged to produce weak keys?
mircea_popescu: i am plainly saying that while the weak keys incontrovertibly exist, it's unclear why they exist. someone put the effort into making them, which is not exactly trivial.
LC^: OK, but can they actually be used? some argued that the weak key supposedly belonging to hpa can't be used to decrypt emails or other data encrypting by him because it was not signed by his real key
LC^: can it be used for impersonation?
mircea_popescu: this is factually correct. it is also not the whole story.
LC^: OK, what is the whole story?
mircea_popescu: one of the more interesting constructions as to the possible intended uses is, a tandem arrangement. it would work like so :
LC^: I'm just trying to understand what the risk is here and why would someone create such keys, intentionally
mircea_popescu: suppose someone needs to talk to hpa - either to verify his signature or to send him encrypted communications.
LC^: ok..
mircea_popescu: with a correctly working pgp implementation, the user connects ot a sks server, discards the wrong key and proceeds as expected.
mircea_popescu: if however his pgp implementation is compromised in a specific way, the wrong key on the server may very well be the magic packet, causing it to behave in an unexpected - and not otherwise detectable - manner.
mircea_popescu: such as, encrypt to it, or email the NSA, or whatever else.
mircea_popescu: this sort of thing (the so called "fail to pass" testing) is the exact sort of stuff we've seen from the nsa to date, and so it would mesh with that experience.
LC^: I see, so the key would serve as an exploit of sorts or a trigger
mircea_popescu: but it is a theory - until someone produces such a diddled implementation it stays a theory.
mircea_popescu: LC^ essentially.
mircea_popescu: in any case, the idea that hpa is the target of that attack - if indeed it is an attack - are at best naive and at worst disinfo.
mircea_popescu: clearly people looking at/for him would be the target, if anything.
mircea_popescu: this, of course, is not the only mechanism that would allow such a key to exist. nevertheless, alternative explanations border on the risible.
LC^: particularly people looking to send him highly confidential info that would need to be encrypted
mircea_popescu: especially amusingm, the "key was damaged in transit" one. people p2p HD movies all day, nobody's seen this. gpg data moves around as archives - try flipping a byte in an archive see if you can stil lget the content. etc.
mircea_popescu: LC^ yes.
mircea_popescu: understand, opsec is extremely weak all over. including among supposedly experienced hackers. so, a simple scenario : guy with owned userland gpg sends secret info to hpa, it is magically encrypted to wrong key, email sniffed en route, secret is now known, but only to the people knowing what to look for. hpa responds with something like bad key, guy re-encrypts it and resends it.
mircea_popescu: he never knows he's been compromised.
mircea_popescu: nobody keeps track of "mysterious" errors etc.
LC^: there are parts in some archive formats you can modify and the archive will still work, though year I understand your point, the suggested theory of damaged in transit would suggest random damaging not controlled modification
mircea_popescu: how often have you moved a file across the tubes ? how often did it have a magically changed byte ?
mircea_popescu: because i did lots of the former and the latter never occured.
LC^: OK, what about the other keys? Are they similar to hpa's key? in the sense that they've been attached to other keys, but lack the proper signature?
mircea_popescu: there are other people matching exactly hpa's profile (high value foss target) with keys apparently added in the same manner. not too many.
mircea_popescu: there are also other types.
LC^: how many keys have you found so far? do you plan to disclose the owners of the other keys that are similar to hpa's? it doesn't seem to be a big risk there for the owners
adlai thinks a better question could be, "just quite how little human and computer labor did this experiment take?"
mircea_popescu: there's been a total of three pairs, so six total keys to date. i have little doubt that as the program progresses through the list, more will be found. generally, the idea is to discuss this with the owners and them only.
mircea_popescu: the case of hpa was exceptional because at the time the lightning struck (and understand just how unlikely the event we had on our hands this morning was), a call had to be made.
mircea_popescu: in that particular circumstance, where an outside but present chance existed that the box was compromised itself.
mircea_popescu: we might consider publishing the "harmless" keys, but for one thing i am not altogether convinced they're so harmless, and for another, much more interesting would be a hunt for diddled php implementations.
mircea_popescu: now THAT would be something if found.
LC^: have you attempted to notify the owners yet and have you had any responses from them?
mircea_popescu: adlai i would guess something between 50 and 100 BTC's worth of S.NSA engineer's time, and maybe a few months-box worth of hardware.
mircea_popescu: LC^ yes and no.
mircea_popescu: not terribly costly, considering what "VC" firms spend and what they get for it.
LC^: so do you expect your findings to inspire such a hunt?
mircea_popescu: it's already underway. but, the more the merrier. this is the sort of thing where one can make a difference.
mircea_popescu: clicking on cat pics, and derping about what zoe whoever said about imaginary feminist issues is a waste of one's youth.
mircea_popescu: this however... this is something where raising awareness actually does something.
mircea_popescu: !up referredbyloper
mircea_popescu: ehh, diddled php implementations << obviously i mean pgp not php.
mircea_popescu: who the hell came up with the idea of putting these together even ;/
LC^: mircea_popescu: thx for answering my questions so far. I have to jump on a call, but if I decide to go ahead with an article on this and have additional questions I'll look for you around here.
mircea_popescu: pro tip : the north won.
mircea_popescu: !up msdkc
mircea_popescu: !up referredbyloper
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24028 @ 0.00028967 = 6.9602 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39500 @ 0.00028997 = 11.4538 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37350 @ 0.00028967 = 10.8192 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: !up Mugge
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41650 @ 0.00028997 = 12.0773 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 03:05:47; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla hey, is something the matter with assbot ?
mircea_popescu: was kinda slow/suffering for a while. seems ok now.
kakobrekla: thats freenodes issue
mircea_popescu: does it not do titles anymore ?
kakobrekla: titels are depending on log1 iirc
mircea_popescu: oh that still dead ?
kakobrekla: apparently
mircea_popescu: dja need me to reset pw or something there ?
kakobrekla: dunno it was sorta almost working until you started to fiddle with varnish
kakobrekla: since then nfi
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30700 @ 0.00028997 = 8.9021 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19200 @ 0.00028997 = 5.5674 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17820 @ 0.00028997 = 5.1673 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22788 @ 0.00028976 = 6.6031 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 28-02-2015 01:55:22; cazalla: so i made a bitbet under the influence and couldn't fund it until later, i assume 0 conf address listed for it in /propositions/ is the address of which i need to fund?
cazalla: he answered it from memory but why necro that?
kakobrekla: click on the 0conf amount
assbot: Logged on 28-02-2015 02:20:09; trinque: flushing with fear on command is to my knowledge not possible
mircea_popescu: cazalla shit i was doing a very old log lol.
mircea_popescu: "More than two years after unknown hackers gained unfettered access over multiple computers used to maintain and distribute the Linux operating system kernel, officials still haven't released a promised autopsy about what happened."
mircea_popescu: case exactly mirrored by freenode : about a year after they lost at least one server to what appeared like quite the nsa, and promising a full investigation, nothing's been released.
mircea_popescu: !up deface
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135914 << i dun recall who put it in, mebbe davout but at any rate from what i've seen they couldn't get consensus behind the "inaccurate title" theory, or w/e it's called there. so that didn't werk.
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 02:45:11; decimation: Note that your headline was dinged for being inaccurate, while this guy's blog is more inaccurate by his own admission
mircea_popescu: cazalla i find from 8chan that you suck. link related https://8ch.net/btc/res/33.html#212
cazalla: bwahaha
cazalla: what can i say other than he's right.. 9/10 aussies i met on 4chan love nothing more than shit posting
mircea_popescu: ?rate cazalla -2 australian which is bad
cazalla: r u trying to shit post me back or wot m8
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assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34300 @ 0.00027934 = 9.5814 BTC [+]
justJanne: I’m downloading all those hidden state.gov documents right now
mircea_popescu: ahaha good idea
mircea_popescu: "look in robots.txt for directories that derps inadvertently exposed"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46450 @ 0.00028017 = 13.0139 BTC [+] {4}
asciilifeform: jurov: i regret to say that i may have been responsible for the first such article.
asciilifeform: (though it, in turn, used data from a paper, cited therein)
jurov: "made me reminisce about the old days of Occupy Wall Street".. like, it was 20 years ago?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5650 @ 0.00028691 = 1.621 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: jurov: the derpfest in question was so blatantly an organized 'astroturf' affair that it vanished as thoroughly as anything from 20 yrs ago
mircea_popescu: dude, three year's a lifetime for these ephemerides
jurov: ye olde tea partie
asciilifeform: pee partie
asciilifeform: motherfuckers.
asciilifeform: 'phunctor' aha
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13950 @ 0.00028743 = 4.0096 BTC [+] {2}
mats: mircea_popescu: terrible trigger discipline
mats: looks like she has her finger in the well
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37003 @ 0.00028278 = 10.4637 BTC [-]
mats: and as an aside the high ready position is inferior
asciilifeform: mats: good position for folks with terrible trigger discipline ?
asciilifeform: let'em drill the sky full of holes instead of the fella behind or in front
mike_c: ads look like they're working (technically at least). we'll see if 8chan'ers have any money.
mats: their fire will be less accurate in a firefight after a day's patrol due to muscle fatigue
mircea_popescu: mats she holds it like it's a broom
mats: mircea_popescu: oh, lol
mats: osprey falls outta the sky, again
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16650 @ 0.00028347 = 4.7198 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18878 @ 0.00028278 = 5.3383 BTC [-]
mod6: 8 broken keys now eh?
justJanne: 8 broken subkeys, it seems.
justJanne: Most of them don't seem to be valid.
mod6: how do you know they're subkeys? did I miss this in the log?
mike_c: it was discussed on hacker news. looks like there are a handful of invalid subkeys on the sks servers
mod6: oh yeah, i saw that on outside sites.
mod6: thx
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00028347 = 3.2316 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu observation: the only thing that doesn't parallelize linearly is the multiplication (still parallelizes as previously discussed, by split into cache-sized batches across cores.) but gcd against a known product does parallelize linearly...
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu we put this in next ver. and retest whole orchestra weekly..
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47200 @ 0.00028347 = 13.3798 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17692 @ 0.00028278 = 5.0029 BTC [-]
hanbot: BingoBoingo Weak 4096 Bit... suggested edits: "the compromised key in question was" / question which was ; " not only on their total length of the key" / the total length ; "two very large prime number" / numbers ; "subverted by an adversary from the key's generation" / range from the key's ; "what failings of they keyserver" / the keyserver ; "they have yet to factored by" / yet to be factored ; "this highlight a number of" / highlights
hanbot: & nice work
gribble: Error: "nice" is not a valid command.
ben_vulpes: buenos dias
hanbot: hola
justJanne: soo many bots :o
hanbot is mostly human
trinque: asciilifeform: turns out dieharder uses internal glibc preprocessor directives which cause it to explode when built as c99
trinque: looks easy enough to fix so I'll probably take a crack at it at some point
trinque: --std=c99 kicks on __STRICT_ANSI__ which affects whether __USE_MISC is defined in features.h
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37188 @ 0.00028265 = 10.5112 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52300 @ 0.00028347 = 14.8255 BTC [+]
danielpbarron: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: ty danielpbarron
danielpbarron: !up joshbuddy
trinque: mcclim just blew my mind
ascii_field: trinque: enjoy the rare experience of encountering one's first non-retarded example of something (in this case, gui programming) for the first time.
trinque: ascii_field: I recall somebody "doing" this by bolting webkit to a terminal emulator :p
trinque: I have lived in a sea of shit
trinque: ascii_field: incorporating the command line model into GUI programming is very cool
trinque: and the idea that this GUI widget corresponds directly to some piece of data
trinque: I am merely scratching the surface of what I'm looking at, so far
trinque: seems one could do an incredible database editor in this environment
trinque: run a query, it barfs the results with appropriate widgets given the type of data
trinque: you can click foreign keys to traverse them, so on
ben_vulpes: sign me up
BingoBoingo: hanbot: Patched, thanks
ascii_field: ;;later tell decimation does phrase 'grenzenlos naiv' have any idiomatic meaning on top of the obvious ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: so, one of the recent phucked keys contains two subkeys, both of which are phucked. and the self-sig is... valid.
trinque: incredible
ascii_field: but it was cosmic rays, dontcha know.
trinque: anyone interesting?
ascii_field: did you know that cosmic rays could perform signatures ?
trinque: I just learned that yesterday from the fine folks at HN
ascii_field: we should like to harness this engine of undiscovered computronic might
ascii_field: nah, this one doesn't purport to belong to anyone famous
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27550 @ 0.00028719 = 7.9121 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: !up gares
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: BingoBoingo: got an account at 'the register' ?
ascii_field: ^ anyone else ?
ascii_field: curious if anyone tried to point out their 'mistake'
decimation: ascii_field: not to my limited knowledge. "boundlessly naive"/"unlimited innocence" or something like that.
ascii_field: ty decimation
decimation: apparently the phrased was used in a song http://lyricstranslate.com/en/meine-welt-my-world.html-0
ben_vulpes: ascii_field: the new phukkery implies bad keygeneration in the wild, correct?
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: presently the samples of interest fall into several categories
ascii_field: at least one falls under the classical 'generated and correctly signed with dud key'
ascii_field: several have invalid self-sigs and for a subset of these, a non-rotten antecedent key can be found (as pointed out by the peanut gallery)
ascii_field: the remainder lack any self-sigs and -will- import
decimation: ascii_field: someone on the hn comments also listed the diff between the two keys, and it was 32-bits long
ascii_field: decimation: this is not a consistent pattern across the entire set.
decimation: right, but if a cosmic ray were to zing through a ram stick, I wouldn't expect a 32 bit word to change completely?
ascii_field: decimation: most of my observations thus far are not even remotely consistent with 'bit rot.'
Apocalyptic: <ascii_field> at least one falls under the classical 'generated and correctly signed with dud key' // is that key at least a classic RSA key, meaning its modulus consists of only 2 prime factors as opposed to the case discussed yesterday ?
ascii_field: Apocalyptic, decimation: i will let mircea_popescu include this and other interesting zoological specimens in his next article.
Apocalyptic: ascii_field, noted, thanks
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30239 @ 0.00028066 = 8.4869 BTC [-]
Apocalyptic: I would like to point out that unless yesterday's modulus was fully factored, which I have no knowledge of, we actually didn't factor the invalid subkey discussed
ascii_field: Apocalyptic: feel free to perform, e.g., miller-rabin on the larger factor
Apocalyptic: ascii_field, I did some trivial factoring on the reminder, got 2 more primes
ascii_field: primes? so there we go.
ascii_field: factored.
Apocalyptic: but there is still this huge reminder, which is certainly not prime, that remains to be factored
Apocalyptic: ascii_field, no, not only primes
ascii_field: Apocalyptic: try pollard-rho
Apocalyptic: on a 311 decimal base number I have my doubts, even msieve refuses to crunch it
Apocalyptic: *311- digits
ascii_field: specifically pollard-rho.
Apocalyptic: but i'll look at it later
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52200 @ 0.00027691 = 14.4547 BTC [-] {3}
Apocalyptic: (the full factoring is interesting because it's the only way to compute the private exponent d)
ascii_field: Apocalyptic: i was saving this exercise for after we demonstrate that one could 1) sign with the dud key 2) it would verify on some broken pgptron, somewhere
ascii_field: the other thing is,
ascii_field: one of the state-of-art factorizers, lenstra's elliptic curve factorization,
Apocalyptic: "for after we demonstrate that one could 1) sign with the dud key" wait you can sign without fully factoring N ? this is news to me
ascii_field: depends on size of -smallest- factors
Apocalyptic: ascii_field, i thought these it was pretty much NFS all the way
Apocalyptic: *these days
ascii_field: Apocalyptic: yes, because folks are presumed to be using sane keys
ascii_field: consisting of -large- primes
Pierre_Rochard: little intermission to discuss -assets instead of pgp for a sec: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdhNkv4ryuM (background on the meme: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pepe-the-frog )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00027596 = 2.7596 BTC [-]
Apocalyptic: anyway the remainding part I have is not divisible by primes below something like 1 billion if I remember my tests correctly, may still qualify as -small- though
assbot: Logged on 13-05-2015 21:42:17; asciilifeform: re: '21' etc >> 'The cornerstone of the strategy as presented would have been the release of consumer products that would turn power from wall sockets into bitcoin through the widespread dissemination of bitcoin mining chips.' << -somebody- clearly reads the 2013 #b-a logs.
Pierre_Rochard: yup, read it, this is their latest post with more details
Apocalyptic: ascii_field, can you comment on <Apocalyptic> "for after we demonstrate that one could 1) sign with the dud key" wait you can sign without fully factoring N ? this is news to me
Apocalyptic: or did I misunderstand what you were saying ?
ascii_field: Apocalyptic: which part is new to you ?
Apocalyptic: ascii_field, the part where you can sign, which implies knowledge of the private exponent d without having fully factored the modulus N
Apocalyptic: afaik you need to have phi(N) to get d from e, and computing phi(N) is equivalently hard as getting the factorization of N
ascii_field: Apocalyptic: see earlier link re: lenstra. there are algos which are optimized for the kind of scenario which appears to exist here (a multitude of smaller primes rather than two extremely large ones)
Apocalyptic: so I don't get how you can save this factorization exercice for after you sign something...
ascii_field: thus i conjecture that full factorization can be had, at reasonable cost, if there is a reason to attempt it
Apocalyptic: I'm not disputing that
Apocalyptic: i'm disputing you can sign anything without having it first
ascii_field: and what i meant was that one must demonstrate that one could import the pubkey, somewhere, and verify material that was signed with it
Apocalyptic: !up ascii_field
Apocalyptic: I misunderstood what you were saying then
ascii_field: i will say more later, promise.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field sounds great.
Apocalyptic: ascii_field, i'm still thinking about your "exercice for the reader" from yesterday as to how get $othersmuckQ without at least doing a division for every modulus encountered
ascii_field: Apocalyptic: if you come up with answer to this, please wake me up
Apocalyptic: heh, so there is none known to you ?
ascii_field: Apocalyptic: not atm. but i'm currently occupied with other things
Apocalyptic: oh, I thought you knew the answer and it was a challenge
Apocalyptic: i'm nearly convinced there isn't by now
Apocalyptic: by the very design of the product
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27450 @ 0.00027585 = 7.5721 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136361 << amusingly , that was for a while romania's warez source.
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 14:23:20; asciilifeform: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Researchers-Break-RSA-4096-Bit-Keys-481475.shtml << oddly, one fishwrap got the name spelled.
ascii_field: they had, what was it, crackable 'demos' ?
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 14:31:30; mats: osprey falls outta the sky, again
mircea_popescu: ascii_field somfinlikethat
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: so in other news one of the keys from last night has a valid sig
ascii_field: and 2/2 moduli phucked
ascii_field: 'cosmic rays!!!111!!1'
ascii_field: didjaknow they can sign
mircea_popescu: yeah yeah. idiots.
mircea_popescu: but this is why you want "the internet" to have its time to proffer its reactions.
mircea_popescu: if you let them "agree" to "the reasonable" "explanation" you can laugh at them later. if you don't, it's gonna be "oh srsly we presented this before stanford" all over again
ascii_field: betcha they're already working on the necessary 'powerpoint.'
mircea_popescu: obviously, nobody is going to have to explain to anybody why they lied or anything, but hey. free internet!
ascii_field: retro-dated.
mircea_popescu: i don't think they can work this fast.
mircea_popescu: which is kinda the point.
ascii_field: in yet other news, one of the invalid-sig keys is a careful reduction of key size by 1 bit, and very interesting pattern of modifications to public N (not one-bit-flip and not from-this-point, but regularly spaced)
ascii_field: the reduction requires altering a header field
ascii_field: (if you've memorized rfc2440 by now you know this)
ascii_field: cosmic rays know how to do this also, we learn
ascii_field: we should stop settling for small change and take this to the astrophysicists
ascii_field: they will be happy to learn just how clever cosmic ray is
trinque: self aware cosmic rays... sounds like greg egan
trinque: ascii_field: gentoo maintainer says dieharder is too fucked to fix https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=531268
deedbot-: [Trilema] On how the factored 4096 RSA keys story was handled, and what it means to you. - http://trilema.com/2015/on-how-the-factored-4096-rsa-keys-story-was-handled-and-what-it-means-to-you/
mircea_popescu: trinque because this is optional now.
ascii_field: 'unfixable' ahahahahaha
trinque: yep, lol
mircea_popescu: "we'll just have a world without diehard. should be fine as long as ux is good"
ascii_field: how about he's locked in a room and only fed once it runs.
ascii_field: how about that.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field well, you know how that goes. "within the constraints". "you can't have this and nsa so this can't be had"
trinque: I've "fixed" it locally which is to say it builds
trinque: does sound like the project could use cleanup beyond that
trinque: but yeah, convenient right?
trinque: as scoopbot is not back I assume deedbot- is the new guy for that too?
mircea_popescu: ever since the us got on this kick about retards using things, stuff that's not for retards has been at a disadvantage.
ascii_field: actively ghettoized and eventually gassed, is more like it
mircea_popescu: trinque i dunno what you two did there. what did you do ?
trinque: mircea_popescu: I noticed scoopbot was absent for a while, and after many complaints just loaded the feeds plugin into tenyks
mircea_popescu: btw, anyone with a slashdot acct ? plox to dump the above link ?
trinque: mircea_popescu: I told william I'd turn it off if his was returning, but it hasn't
hanbot: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: ty hanbot.
trinque: "In closing, for the tl;dr / eli5 / etc crowd : this article is not for you. Go back to doing the dishes, we'll wake you up once you need to buy a new flag." << fucking glorious.
mircea_popescu: im so sick of this "retards are people too" bullshit by now i can't begin to tell you.
mircea_popescu: actually that softpedia piece is notbad.jpg
mircea_popescu: we actually see anything wrong with it even ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20700 @ 0.00027975 = 5.7908 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: "Or perhaps they did that stupid human trick that never fails: If you have excess funds, procreate until you no longer have excess funds, then share the funds equally until you all die." << afaik this was never done in practice, outside of easter island. not that women everywhere didn't endlessly & forever try. but anyway, re the ancient women broken strat discussion, THIS is a fine statement of the problem.
davout: trinque: yea, cracked me up too
davout: ben_vulpes: in everyday life you can say "en vélo" and "à vélo", you won't sound retarded either way, the correct way is "à vélo" though, "en voiture", "en avion", "à cheval". depends on whether you're inside or not
mircea_popescu: depends on whether you're riding it or not.
mircea_popescu: how did jonas travel ? a or en ?
mircea_popescu: a baleine, amirite ?
davout: en baleine
mircea_popescu: o srsly ?
davout: that how i'd say it
ascii_field: 'It doesn't work when Nadia Heninger goes to sell Phuctor before Stanford - Nadia Heninger doesn't own Phuctor, and the actual owners are very much present and very much capable to bitchslap her into oblivion.' << actually, 'crime pays.' chick gets a phd and cushy sinecure, etc.
davout: but the more i look into this issue, the murkier it looks
mircea_popescu: if it pays so well how come you're not there aha.
mircea_popescu: davout :) you have been blessed by the b-a fairy.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00028346 = 1.7008 BTC [+]
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: i was drummed out of academia while reasonably young, for the crime of not-giving-a-rat's-arse
davout: there seems to be something to waht mircea_popescu's saying wrt to 'riding', but it doesn't look that's the full story, i found another source that says both "en/à vélo" are correct
mircea_popescu: !up stoon
davout: mircea_popescu: i wish the b-a fairy gave me more money, instead of more hair
mircea_popescu: davout i think this is one of those stories of old world privilege meanwhile abandoned because impractical and who gives a shit. just don't make it sur, that's niggerspeak
ascii_field: davout: b-a fairy only hands out honourable deaths
ascii_field: to the deserving.
mircea_popescu: and murk to everyone else.
mircea_popescu: hence, "murk moar".
davout: ascii_field: yea, hopefully i end up in decentrally corwdfunded valhalla
davout: mircea_popescu: re niggerspeak, totally
mircea_popescu: i notice alf is very chan-oriented these days. picrelated all day from this fellow.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo curious how that goes.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: i typically get'em from diametric
mircea_popescu: what's your score yet, three ?
mircea_popescu: ascii_field what is that even, "fuckhead throne" ?
davout: ascii_field: oh god, the chair
trinque: the one with dicks would be more relevant to the show... most plot-oriented softcore porn ever created
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 19:45:42; davout: ben_vulpes: in everyday life you can say "en vélo" and "à vélo", you won't sound retarded either way, the correct way is "à vélo" though, "en voiture", "en avion", "à cheval". depends on whether you're inside or not
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: is game of thrones the one with a dumb bitch that's the hero in spite of not doing anything ? (outside of feelings)
mircea_popescu: gladiatorial combat something something
davout: mircea_popescu: it has complex psychology11!
trinque: mircea_popescu: yep, she's going around freeing teh peoples, torching the previous rulers with dragons
mircea_popescu: occupy dragonclutch ?
mircea_popescu: "we are the 1 herp, because percents are a jdif conspiracy"
trinque: lol
trinque: total circlejerk character
mircea_popescu: by now, im not so sure of the mental health of tv watchers anyway. i guess it's prolly best not disturb them.
trinque: I have a half-baked notion that people in the US like this show because they are aware of 200 years of history, if that, and only of their own dirt
mircea_popescu: who knows what zombiecalypse lies in wait
mircea_popescu: mike_c how's teh traffix mah bruther ? too much ?
mike_c: 71k hits
mircea_popescu: if it needs to be scaled down you say, i scale.
mike_c: box is still standing. yet another reason I need to move to BISP though. it seems ok for now.
mircea_popescu: Shook was on the scene, telling 11Alive’s Duffie Dixon that the image was “highly disturbing, aggravating, obnoxious and illegal.”
mircea_popescu: cocks ? srsly ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Appears to have been oatse
BingoBoingo: *goatse
mircea_popescu: aghagaga way to go goatse!
davout: mircea_popescu: btw
assbot: Logged on 17-05-2015 13:41:39; davout: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://i.imgur.com/g5ci4oK.png <<< the paymium banner
davout: also pls to X.EUR
mircea_popescu: ah yes the eur. aite on it.
mircea_popescu: davout what is it, paymium.com ?
davout: yes
mircea_popescu: davout banner's live.
davout: nice! ty!
mircea_popescu: btw copypaste ^ now there's a banner to a respectable exchange in the rotation, people can buy btc there.
davout: no amerifags though
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12098 @ 0.0002765 = 3.3451 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ah, is it like us-banned.jpg ?
davout: yeah, we do europe, technically EEA + CH
davout: americans are a big no-no
davout: because fatca
mircea_popescu: must suck to be one by now.
davout: so the bitbet banners are generated dynamically from the bets?
mircea_popescu: ayup. mike_c got some serious magic going there, im impresst.
davout: it *is* impressive
mircea_popescu: it all started with kakobrekla 's sane design, which json etc.
mircea_popescu: but it's a tower of cool to shake the very foundations of "web 2.0" idiocy.
mircea_popescu: organically grown, too.
mike_c: thanks! nice things can happen when there is a good foundation to work from.
mod6: yeah, good work!
mircea_popescu: how's huntin' mod6 ?
mod6: ah! good :]
BingoBoingo: Florida and DC Aids capitals of the US http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2015/14_0395.htm
mod6: aside from keeping up with the unfolding nosuchlabs work, within 7000 blocks of my next regression benchmark being finished. should have some new charts to look at in 24 hours.
mod6: s/regression/performance/
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: 'accidental discharges of firearms' l0l
ascii_field: 'legal intervention'
mod6: And as far as the gentoo stuff goes, I kinda had to put that on hold for a minute. I'm going to finish the rest of that up on real hardware. But to do so, I gotta drive across town and buy a new box. I might wait until after the 1st to continue this front.
mircea_popescu: why do anons on trilema prefer to name themselves obama-something ?
mircea_popescu: mod6 i feel you. here's me kinda having to put gentoo on hold for a... minute : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-05-2015#1123691
assbot: Logged on 07-05-2015 05:21:17; mircea_popescu: this is unlikely to EVER change. i tried to move it to gentoo but the attempt burned, toppled and sunk into the swamp.
mircea_popescu: https://8ch.net/btc/res/222.html#226 << holy shit that thing has a face.
mod6: mircea_popescu: ahh, yeah. having gone through the gauntlet already on the thing at least a dozen times in aws, and also now having re-read the Gentoo-Handbook, i feel like I'm very close on this. To complete the guide, i wanna test out all of the steps on real hardware so the steps are accurate. I believe it'll entail something like creating a USB boot image, then booting off of that, then creating a stage3 in a chroot, then deploying that to
trinque: ^ sounds sane
mod6: and trinque, thanks for all your help :]
trinque: if you're booting from USB you can make the chroot a mount of the thing's own partitions
trinque: rather than a copy step; might've been what you meant
trinque: mod6: no problem!
mod6: ah, yeah. that makes sense.
mod6: anyway, i have high hopes that some of these steps could even be automated to aliviate the pain of building this by hand.
mircea_popescu follows eagerly.
mircea_popescu: !up Ginux
ben_vulpes: trinque: what the actual fuck "not worth maintaining"
ben_vulpes: forgive the ignorance, but what's wrong with the ebuild from 2 months ago?
trinque: ben_vulpes: the actual dieharder code uses glibc internals in a way that used to work, now does not due to as yet undiscovered source of rust, with vague indications that compiling with std=c99 has implications for glibc
mircea_popescu: he raged at this in logs past few days.
mircea_popescu: eventually idea was to ulibc
trinque: mircea_popescu: does seem that we keep encountering the rot of glibc
trinque: ben_vulpes: that said a working dieharder can be built with my naive patch listed in that bug report
trinque: ben_vulpes: oh and... several weak results from the consumer hardware I have laying around
trinque: so "not worth maintaining" my ass
trinque: I'll chew on the thing for a while and see what comes of it
mircea_popescu follows eagerly-er.
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: trinque: if you are a n00b to dieharder, i must remind you that just about anything looks like 'weak result'
trinque: total n00b
ascii_field: it is a comparative, rather than absolute measure
mircea_popescu: ah good point. mind that merely a failed test is of itself meaningless
mircea_popescu: you must have a theory as to what exactly would it do before you can actually say a rng was shown weak by dieharder.
ascii_field: i will also add that, e.g., digits of 'pi', are beautifully entropic per dieharder and most anything else
mircea_popescu: (if you think about it : an entropy source that always pass tests is by definition not entropic. see last year's amusement with the "guess number" toy alf made)
ascii_field: !s fips
assbot: 8 results for 'fips' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=fips
ascii_field: ^ related lulz
assbot: Logged on 08-04-2014 03:16:07; asciilifeform: don't be the schmuck who builds rng which throws away batches of bits that fail some test
trinque: interesting; I'll consider the dieharder source code a starting point for further research.
trinque afk for a bit
mircea_popescu: !up Jautenim
Jautenim: thank you mr p
mircea_popescu: sure. who're you ?
Jautenim: lurker at contravex, trilema & the logs for some time now
ben_vulpes: trinque: i still have no idea how to do a local overlay for a package pulled from portage
ben_vulpes: naive attempts totally failed
justJanne: @ascii_field, about pi: No, pi is not a good source of entropy
ascii_field: justJanne: as if this needed saying
ascii_field: justJanne: but you will notice that it -passes tests-
ascii_field: ergo, utility for battlefield crypto does not reduce to mathematical tests
mircea_popescu: justJanne the application here is that, if i give you a string of random numbers which unknown to you are the nth digit of pi onwards, you may think you have entropy by "tests".
justJanne: the issue with pi is that it is a very slow RNG
justJanne: and not really good.
mircea_popescu: absolutely 0 good.
ascii_field: justJanne: nothing to do with 'slow' (baily-borwein-plouffe algo is fast, gives nth digit)
mxtm: why would pi be an entropy source
mxtm: it's the same always
mxtm: just never ending
ascii_field: but with the fact that once enemy catches on, he will laugh himself to death (this being your only hope)
justJanne: also true
Jautenim: I came to ask what are the rough requirements
Apocalyptic: <mxtm> it's the same always // what
Jautenim: for running a 0.5.3.1 node
mxtm: Apocalyptic: the nth digit of pi doesn't change
mircea_popescu: Jautenim atm it's practically running on a pogo, so very low.
Apocalyptic: it is actually conjectured that pi contains all the possible finite sequences you can think of
mxtm: yes, but when
Apocalyptic: mxtm, no shit, why would it change ?
ascii_field: Apocalyptic: not merely 'pi', but all transcendentals
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic this is the case for all
Apocalyptic: ascii_field, of course
mircea_popescu: god damned.
mxtm: Apocalyptic: then how would it be an entropy source
mxtm: if it doesn't change
Apocalyptic: mxtm, you read the digits onward...
mircea_popescu: !up gares
mircea_popescu: mxtm it's not a REAL entropy source. it's a defined sequence that may be confused for an entropy source, if one's definition of entropy is test based.
mircea_popescu: read carefully wha was said
ben_vulpes: Jautenim: not a great deal, i think mod6 ran one in less than 200MB of RAM recently, but that was with asciilifeform's 'orphanage thermonuke'
mxtm: yeah, that's what i was trying to convey, it's a defined sequence
ascii_field: 'The yeasts could be locked in secure laboratories, worked on by screened employees. Sharing them with other scientists without government permission could be outlawed.' << what even.
ascii_field falls down
Apocalyptic: mxtm, Mersenne twister seeded with a strong seed is also a defined sequence
Apocalyptic: still used as prng
mircea_popescu: prngs not what we're discussing here tho.
Apocalyptic: yeah, he seems to argue that since it's deterministic it's no good
Apocalyptic: but that isn't relevant to the "tests" discussed
Jautenim: I'm planning to rent a cheap vps and run it more or less full time
Jautenim: in order to help testing
mircea_popescu: Jautenim or you could order a pogo and help that effort along ?
Jautenim: lemme know if I can help
mircea_popescu: it's like 10bux
assbot: 461 results for 'pogo' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pogo
ascii_field: Apocalyptic: the precaution taught in school is that 'prng is bad because enemy might learn the seed.' which is a 'lie of omission' - given the existence of a relation between bit N and bit N+1, enemy may have the means to infer N+1 (and N-1) from N
mircea_popescu: ^ see that.
Jautenim: mircea_popescu can they be ordered from teh EU?
mircea_popescu: hm, i recall there were supply problems in the eu. but maybe worth a try.
mircea_popescu: at any rate cheaper than a vps.
mircea_popescu: i mean if you have your own iron you don't need it's one thing, but otherwise... best own the box.
mircea_popescu: in other news, "In the newt species Notophthalmus viridescens, males carry out a courtship behavior called amplexus. It consists of males capturing females that do not want to mate with them and using their hind limbs to grasp the females by their pectoral regions." << check out the newt pua!
Jautenim: I'll look into it
mircea_popescu: "Male guppies (Poecilia reticulata) have been observed to forcefully copulate with females by trying to insert their gonopodium (male sex organ) into female’s genital pores, whether or not they are accepting. Sometimes, male guppies also try to forcefully mate with Skiffia bilineata (goodeid) females, which resemble guppy females and tend to share the same habitat, even when guppy females are available. A possible ex
mircea_popescu: planation for this is the deeper genital cavity of S. bilineata, which stimulates the males more than when mating with guppy females."
mircea_popescu: ^ dedicated slut species, omg.
Jautenim: apropos
Jautenim: !register 32FE1E61B1C711186CA378DEFD8981F1BC41ABB9
assbot: Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint: 32FE1E61B1C711186CA378DEFD8981F1BC41ABB9. This may take a few moments.
assbot: Key BC41ABB9 / "Marcel Hernandez (1MA) <e6990620@gmail.com>" successfully imported.
assbot: Registration successful.
mircea_popescu: !rate Jautenim 1 New blood.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/da18ca543b26d634
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.Jautenim.1:a7148df60687a19ff87c1d6fee176454f47e22b3605b0b356515b3dfd39ba98d
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for Jautenim with note: New blood.
danielpbarron: !up referredbyloper
justJanne: okay, I’m kinda in a hurry – anyone know a fast way to do two-out-of-three in boolean logic with less than 5 operators?
mircea_popescu: !up ETIST
mircea_popescu: lol cheating on homework already!
justJanne: nah,
justJanne: okay, kinda.
justJanne: yes >_>
trinque: ahaha
mxtm: haha
justJanne: the question was to implement the < operator on int with boolean logic
justJanne: we got it down to 8 operations, but others got it in 7
justJanne: the only optimizable place would be the point where we do a two-out-of-three logic
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: justJanne: 'we' ?!!!
justJanne: currently (a & (b | c)) | (b & c)
mircea_popescu: talmud eh.
justJanne: ascii_field: homework is done in groups of two here at uni, so people learn how to do teamwork
mircea_popescu foretold.
trinque: learn how to pass the whole class
justJanne: Yeah, that’s not the issue.
trinque: teaches the best to hold back too; that's always good
mircea_popescu: justJanne your currently is 4 not 8 ? am i confused ?
justJanne: mircea_popescu: the overall question is to implement the < operator
justJanne: as you see, 8 ops
mircea_popescu: switch order around, get rid of not, 7.
justJanne: not possible.
justJanne: remember, we are working with ints
justJanne: so the ! is necessary there to turn -1 into 1
mircea_popescu: doesn't ! turn false into true ?!
justJanne: kinda.
justJanne: this is C.
mircea_popescu: return (( (x & (l1 | ny)) | (l1 & ny) ) >> 31);
justJanne: so everything that is not 0 is automatically true
mircea_popescu: what's that do.
justJanne: it would return 0 or -1
mircea_popescu: so then...
justJanne: as >> moves the sign
justJanne: so you need to do +1 or !
mircea_popescu: <justJanne> so everything that is not 0 is automatically true < ?
mircea_popescu: i think you're being german :D
justJanne: 5 is true.
justJanne: 2 is true.
justJanne: 1 is true.
justJanne: -10000 is true
justJanne: 0 is false
mircea_popescu: so then the fucntion returns true, false.
justJanne: (kinda)
justJanne: c has no true, nor real false. But it can return 1 or 0
mircea_popescu: you want 7 or don't you ?
justJanne: but it’s too late anyway
mircea_popescu: this is where a bring young mind learns what C really is all about :D
justJanne: we did lots of optimizations in the past weeks, homework this week is "you have this blob of binary, find out what it does, circumvent its checks"
ascii_field: justJanne: that last one was called 'the bomb' where i went to school
ascii_field: traditional exercise
ascii_field: it's really just a ritualized version of the familiar cracking of w4r3z
justJanne: yeah.
justJanne: I spent the past days doing the same – actually cracking DRM of Tidal
justJanne: but then I discovered they have an unobfuscated android app, so I got lazy and started instead decompiling that one
ascii_field: justJanne: traditionally copy protection is implemented, where the rubber hits the road, by poor schmucks who aren't dumb enough to believe that it 'works' but still gotta collect that salary, and so 'are only following orderz'
ascii_field: hence tends to be... lackluster
mircea_popescu: kinda funny that drm never got as clever as viruses. even back when both these were clever, the ms-dos era.
justJanne: the in-browser DRM is a native binary that is pretty much stripped of any information, actually kinda hard to use, but the Android version of almost everything is stupid
ascii_field: (there are notable exceptions, e.g., ilfak guilfanov)
justJanne: (yes, Tidal uses a native plugin for in-browser DRM)
mircea_popescu: justJanne what is tidal even ?
justJanne: A music streaming service that streams lossless unedited FLAC files
justJanne: about 1344kbps quality
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105100 @ 0.00027668 = 29.0791 BTC [+] {4}
ascii_field: if lossless, why not pull'em out of /dev/pcm
justJanne: I wanted a way to scrape them.
trinque: streaming service that got whoever's still considered "famous" in music together, stamped their faces on the thing
trinque: "so totally not spotify you see"
justJanne: I found a way, but now I have a few thousand files encrypted, the corresponding PBKDF2WithHmacSHA1 encryption keys, but was too lazy to find the client-side salt for that
justJanne: and the sound quality, tbh, is great. Just not worth 20$ a month
trinque: ah I guess jay-z owns it
mircea_popescu: is this the guy that owns burning man ?
trinque: heh looks like there's some noise about dr dre being behind burning man
trinque: damned hilarious if so, dunno about that
mircea_popescu: oh different one k nm
mircea_popescu can't distinguish rappers
justJanne: The difference between Dr Dre and Jay Z? Jay Z’s product actually is something more than marketing speech
ben_vulpes: wowee justJanne with the opinions
justJanne: I mean, Beats are just cheap Philips headphones with a bass boost.
justJanne: literally
trinque: jay-z is probably the best of the rapper-turned-entrepreneurs, yes
ben_vulpes: anyways, Tidal was a flip onto Jay Z who has yet to learn how horrifically expensive software is to build and maintain in fiatland.
trinque: yup, the people who listen to him and beyonce aren't even paying for spotify
mircea_popescu: wow beyonce is still a thing ?
mircea_popescu: this is the hot model woman from 10 years ago right ?
ben_vulpes: he'll blow a billi, and never touch software again.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: mami's still lookin good!
trinque: haha hear hear!
mircea_popescu: digital or irl ?
ben_vulpes: last i saw was the hbo special
mircea_popescu: dawg im impressed, this is like black madonna material.
ben_vulpes: 3+ hours of high-octane beyonce wiggle
justJanne: ben_vulpes: still, compared to all those 9000$ expensive audio cables, or Beats headphones, lossless FLAC has an advantage over 128kbps mp3
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42222 @ 0.00027343 = 11.5448 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: who ever knew of a black hottie outlast a decade.
trinque: justJanne: yeah just average consumer derp is not going to tell the difference between that and spotify's ogg-whatever
ben_vulpes has yet to outlast a decade
mircea_popescu: ahahaha wut. SKIN LIGHTENING ?
trinque: and will just see 10 bucks more than the 10 bucks I'm already not paying
mircea_popescu: you gotta be kidding me.
justJanne: trinque: lol
mircea_popescu: is she inviting preteens over to her estate next ?
justJanne: yeah, still – Tidal is the first service providing CD quality.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: sauce
ben_vulpes: justJanne: sure if you discount gnutella.
justJanne: ben_vulpes: we’re talking about services that have a chance of mainstream adoption.
justJanne: gnutella has as much chances of mainstream adoption as Gentoo has
ben_vulpes: bitch please back in the day gnutella /was/ mainstream
ben_vulpes: just because nobody uses it anymore, well.
trinque: who remembers direct connect?
trinque: and winmx?
ben_vulpes: we're getting old, trinque
trinque: man that was a glorious age of the internet
mircea_popescu: <justJanne> gnutella has as much chances of mainstream adoption as Gentoo has << ouch-zing-ouch
ben_vulpes: soon we'll be grumpy like mircea_popescu
trinque: ben_vulpes: goddamn kids don't understand the unlimited buffet that was the intertubes
justJanne: still is!
mircea_popescu: justJanne he doesn't mean pr0n hon.
trinque: lol
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2FGH014.txt )
mircea_popescu: shit stop messing up my bash ppls!
ben_vulpes: c-c-c-c-c
ben_vulpes: -combo breaker!
trinque: kazaa was when the idiots all joined the party and ruined it
mircea_popescu: stop being raceys trinque
justJanne: hey, at least nowadays the web is getting better again.
ben_vulpes: bwahahahaha
trinque: I apologize for my senseless outburst of hate
ben_vulpes: hee hee hee
trinque: justJanne: is not youngin
justJanne: Almost every video service hosts plain video files instead of flash-based players for .flv videos anymore
mircea_popescu: solid point she has there bitches.
ben_vulpes: justJanne: have you been following the glibc travails?
justJanne: nah.
trinque: yeah I'll grant browsers are going further towards "open techmology" whatever that means
mircea_popescu: what now ? owned by a 19yo girl ? not even speaking her mother tongue ? HOW!!1 do you expect to end up bitter like me this wya ?
trinque: hilarious also that the shit getting put into the browser is effectively whatw as in flash
justJanne: trinque: not necessarily.
mircea_popescu: im really impressed with stuff like gyfcat or w/e that was called.
justJanne: Now I can just grep through the JS, find the link to the .mp4, and wget it, and watch it offline
justJanne: I remember the sad days of having to decompile swf objects just to rip a video.
justJanne: or using *cringe* realplayer
mircea_popescu: and 8chan was, to my surprise, chock full of html5 videos that work just fine.
mircea_popescu: youtube does not work for me, but 8chan does.
trinque: flash was just another ecmascript runtime thing
trinque: with a canvas like the canvas tag
mircea_popescu: justJanne wait, the sad days from when you were... 9 ?
trinque: and of course DRM and other shit
justJanne: mircea_popescu: yes?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13150 @ 0.00027341 = 3.5953 BTC [-]
trinque: I'm not saying the browser isn't adding features; I'm saying it's aping the tired ways of a previous generation
mircea_popescu: you were ripping flash vids before your voice changed. wtf is this!
trinque: there's nothing "new" about html5
mircea_popescu: trinque other than the fact it works.
justJanne: of course not.
justJanne: although, there is something new
mircea_popescu: !rated copypaste
assbot: You rated user copypaste on 13-May-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: Presumably, 8chan owner.
justJanne: people writing in-browser apps that don’t support linking
mircea_popescu: !rate copypaste 2 Confirmed for the ever-awesome HotWheels.
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/82ddd601d1ac8005
trinque: justJanne: points out the conflict between the web-as-document-store and web-as-app-things
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.copypaste.2:dd03f79f93681af647a8dddf4f7c2f32fd9dc2470a2bedda0f600cc1b5da14a7
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for copypaste from 1 to 2 with note: Confirmed for the ever-awesome HotWheels.
trinque: anyhow what are we addressing here. I was reminiscing about opennap servers
justJanne: trinque: one funny example: http://i.imgur.com/k9BZPhT.png
justJanne: (screenshot from DDG)
trinque: that looks like someone's stupid js data bindey thing fucked up
trinque: what am I looking for
justJanne: exactly
justJanne: JS webapps that do everything in-browser
justJanne: makes the job a lot harder for crawlers
trinque: I approve of you having independently discovered that this is a shit way to do things.
justJanne: when my crawler stopped working due to this,
trinque: subcategory of... JS is an appalling language and bolted to the DOM it's even worse
mircea_popescu: trinque i dunno dood, i love the select thing on trilema.
mircea_popescu: first time i ever used js.
justJanne: JS has some nice parts.
justJanne: like that it encourages them to use more functional code
adlai: justJanne: dunno, it seems obvious that if you want to crawl the luser-visible web, you simulate the luser, not curl
justJanne: adlai: yes, but in 2008 you could just curl the web and get it all
mircea_popescu: and in 2010 you could cpu mine
justJanne: in 2010 you could throw wget -r on the new york times and get, after a few weeks, half of the web.
mircea_popescu: more like a fifth, and if using slashdot.
justJanne: if your parents didn’t kill you for the dialup bill, though
trinque: mircea_popescu: I can't argue with HTML being a decent way of publishing articles; seems to have worked out pretty well
trinque: I do think many "web apps" of today would do better to be written as native code which just opens a socket for data
mircea_popescu: trinque the selector thing is specific js tho, and it does something not afaik doable in html per se
mircea_popescu: something that i want so badly, i would never give up
trinque: s/HTML/HTML+CSS+JS/
trinque: the conflict there is the same one as in SQL
trinque: "end user programming"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40800 @ 0.0002726 = 11.1221 BTC [-] {2}
trinque: so you've got one group of derps demanding the thing be "intuitive" to "those people"
trinque: and you've got other people trying to use the things as proper programming tools
justJanne: it’s not just limited to that.
trinque: the browser's a fine document thing and it should stop there before it hurts someone
justJanne: you might end up with governmental websites using JS for access control.
justJanne: and governments then passing laws that "circumventing client-side access control" becomes a crime
trinque: meh
trinque: prove I did it
trinque: I don't think anyone in government could form those sentences
mircea_popescu: you don't understand how the law works, trinque
trinque: it is *real*!!!
mircea_popescu: here's a simple explanation catering to you specifically : it's not a truth finding mechanism, it's a consensus building mechanism.
mircea_popescu: it's point is not to produce sicence, but to prevent people from clobbering each other.
mircea_popescu: geddit ?
justJanne: we’re talking here about a government where the chancellor has a PhD in Quantum Chemistry – obviously not stupid, but evil.
trinque: mircea_popescu: yes that makes sense re: law
mircea_popescu: so "prove i did it" has a very simple counter : if you weigh the same as a duck
mircea_popescu: you're made of wood
trinque: ahahaha
mircea_popescu: and therefore, my bitch!
trinque: of course; it's something I may run into or not, but I will not try to make sense of wooden ducks
mircea_popescu: best burn down any large scales of that kind.
trinque: justJanne: someone requires I use thing X as part of my browser, and that's the day I stop using browsers
justJanne: the law literally says "if you access an electronical data computation system unauthorized"
mircea_popescu: what, like you stopped using glibc ?
justJanne: where authorized isn’t defined
mircea_popescu: justJanne blessfully, relatively few people live in that sort of shithole. speaking of which, do you have plans to escape ?
justJanne: nah. It’s good enough. And at least streaming illegal movies is legal here
trinque emits a parse error
trinque: mircea_popescu: and someday yes!
mircea_popescu: trinque see ? someday, sure.
justJanne read that as trinique.see() ? someday : sure
trinque: heh maybe if the last two terms are swapped
justJanne: a friend did, but I collected them
justJanne: I didn’t draw them
mircea_popescu: she draws just like a 19yo too.
justJanne: I’m not good at it, k?
mircea_popescu: you're fine.
justJanne: I did sketch this, though: http://i.imgur.com/xCr9iTz.png
mircea_popescu: they do a trick, for frozen cgi, which is very hard to do by hand, where they fold her face in a particular moe pattern. amusingly enough - this is very similar to how pharma works, because it involves searching the space of possible facefolds for something that's not in the uncanny valley and works.
justJanne: I know, I spent 1 year in a dozen frozen fan chats
justJanne: I’ve seen the movie 13 times in cinema >_>
mircea_popescu: is it actually that good ?
mircea_popescu: what is it even, like rapunzel v2.0 ?
mod6: there's ~20 hours you'll never get back
mircea_popescu: dude let the woman have her childhood. i listened to fucking iron maiden!
justJanne: nah, spending one year in those chats, 24/7 is something I’ll never get back.
mod6: haha
trinque: what do you mean "listened"
mircea_popescu: lol. oh, i see, IM is ok, frozen isn't. k. brb.
mircea_popescu: aaaand im now stuck with clairvoyant. well done internets o.O
danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136872 << I used to collect flac albums like a decade ago -- surprised to hear it's even still a thing; let alone has official commercial backing
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 22:16:09; justJanne: ben_vulpes: still, compared to all those 9000$ expensive audio cables, or Beats headphones, lossless FLAC has an advantage over 128kbps mp3
justJanne: danielpbarron: it makes sense to have 1400kbps FLAC, as that’s CD quality
trinque: I like how youtube has every damn everything on it, and continues to exist
trinque: meanwhile grooveshark rots on a spike somewhere
trinque: danielpbarron: I once lost like 400gb of flacs
danielpbarron: oh I get the advantages to lossless; I even went out of my way to buy special hardware (fancy headphones and an iPhone-style device with custom firmware)
trinque: the tears
danielpbarron: yeah i lost all my flac files when i forgot i had them on a harddrive i used to make the RAID in my full node
danielpbarron: so it goes..
justJanne: danielpbarron: I have cheap Sennheiser HD 449 headphones and a normal phone, works well enough
trinque: lol yeah I formatted the drive too
trinque: to help some chick upgrade her OS
trinque: that was a lesson
kakobrekla still hangs on ~1500 flac albums
danielpbarron: i'm not into music enough to care about these things anymore
justJanne: for some years I had a script that wipes a random harddrive at a random time
justJanne: helps making sure backups work
trinque: man I need a good amount of raging out to metal per day
justJanne: though one day the script wiped the drive itself was on, never found it again
trinque: LOL
justJanne: <insert short rant about ALSA only allowing 44.1kHz and 16-bit audio here>
kakobrekla: speaking of flac and tidal; http://test.tidalhifi.com
mod6: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 357052 | Current Difficulty: 4.880748724468138E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 358847 | Next Difficulty In: 1795 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 13 hours, 15 minutes, and 31 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 49340718499.3 | Estimated Percent Change: 1.09252
jurov: ls -l
mod6: cannot access #bitcoin-assets: No such file or directory
mircea_popescu: sudo ls -l
deedbot-: [Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] Victoria’s nature. - http://www.contravex.com/2015/05/18/victorias-nature/
justJanne: mkdir -p #bitcoin-assets && cat /dev/urandom | tr -dc a-zA-Z0-9 > #bitcoin-assets/random
mod6: haha
mircea_popescu: i take that as a personal insult!
mod6: asciilifeform: heh, now these 21 guys are saying they wanna make embeddable mining chips for smart phones. glwt. seeing as how they run out of power in like 9 minutes as it is.
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 14:52:59; mats: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/world/middleeast/isis-ramadi-iraq.html Ramadi falls against IS
justJanne: mod6: power is not the issue.
justJanne: heat is.
mircea_popescu: mod6 the entire toaster miner thing was lulzy to begin with, but smartphone coronat opus.
justJanne: your phone will burn through your clothes. And then ignite everything around it, before becoming a blob of molten lava
mircea_popescu: justJanne sounds pretty cool. how much for one ?
justJanne: mircea_popescu: they aren’t for sale yet, but if you want to get a taste, you can buy an AMD GPU
mircea_popescu: heh. bitcoin ran on those for yers you know.
mircea_popescu: some guy even got brain damage from heat stroke
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136369 << or as we like to call this, "he got von flondored"
mircea_popescu: !up btcg
btcg: thanks
jurov: ben_vulpes: what was the problem with the overlay?
btcg: random question: what do you folks think of the proposed embedded mining from 21?
btcg: i wonder how they'll run a full node, i guess there's the ~1.2 gig pruned node
ben_vulpes: jurov: i don't think i actually understand how they're supposed to work.
btcg: i saw mod6's comment how would a phone support a full node
mats: mircea_popescu: wait six months i guess
ben_vulpes: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay/Local_overlay << i followed this and a few other guides, but failed to get anything that looked like it would let me hack on the diehard source
danielpbarron: btcg, chip doesn't need full node to mine; all chips probably phone home to central node for the next header to work on
trinque: ben_vulpes: if you want to hack best just stick the source in your home directory
mircea_popescu: mats curious if egypt actually goes the way of turkey or mopre like syria
trinque: making an ebuild is more along the lines of packaging up your thing and shipping it
jurov: ben_vulpes: what failed?
mircea_popescu: btcg that it's ridiculous.
btcg: ahh, like electrum heh
trinque: there are a few magical files that need to be inside /usr/local/portage or wherever the overlay may be
mircea_popescu: no. like a fuckable fridge.
mircea_popescu: even admitting you could make this, who in his right mind wants to fuck the food storebox.
jurov: ben_vulpes: but yes, hacking on the source is best in your homedir. only after it compiles there, feed to portage
trinque: mircea_popescu: there's an (american?) phenomenon there where innovating means crapping together however many things that already existed, and calling it something new
mircea_popescu: anyone made homeless linux yet ? where you DON'T get a home dir ?
mircea_popescu: trinque you don't say.
mircea_popescu: "it's like x but for y" ?
jurov: export ROOT=/dev/null
btcg: i was hoping a water heater that pays for itself, by using miner heat, but embeddable chip, if their centralized servers have issue, eeek
trinque: mircea_popescu: seems like what happens to the imitators when there's nothing good to imitate
trinque: re-feeds on itself for a few cycles and there's nothing left
jurov: btcg: if you can synthsize it from ECL chips, no prob
trinque: uber for facebooks
mircea_popescu: btcg you seen the log discussion on this topic ?
ben_vulpes: jurov: more or less getting `emerge` to work with my sources. but...
btcg: ahh, i'll read it thanks
ben_vulpes: <jurov> ben_vulpes: but yes, hacking on the source is best in your homedir. only after it compiles there, feed to portage << this first
btcg: i usually just read it at leisure decided to jump in here
trinque: ben_vulpes: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay#Manually_setting_overlay_locations << gotta put some files places and configure make.conf
ben_vulpes: blee i did
assbot: Logged on 10-05-2015 23:16:02; mircea_popescu: toaster is kinda dumb, but ceramic tiles for warm floor is worth doing.
ben_vulpes: also i read ELSEWHERE on the gentoo wiki that PORTDIR_OVERLAY is deprecated
jurov: btcg: and if it is not only gentoo problem, you can skip portage and go annoy upstream
ben_vulpes: so i don't know mang
trinque: deprecated for what
justJanne: trinque: that is very much true @ the apple-strategy argument
mats: mircea_popescu: i'm inclined to believe egypt will follow syria
mircea_popescu: seems safe bet.
trinque: ben_vulpes: god damn it; I smell shitgnoes
trinque: *gnomes
ben_vulpes: nigga iono
trinque: fuck it all; everyone has to bolt a dick massager to everything
ben_vulpes: some "overlay for morons" gentoo wiki page
btcg: jurov apologies i am not on gentoo sir
ben_vulpes: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay/Local_overlay << "Note: The old method of setting the 'PORTDIR_OVERLAY' variable in make.conf is deprecated and should not be used."
jurov: btcg sry it was to ben
mircea_popescu: trinque:--std=c99 kicks on __STRICT_ANSI__ which affects whether __USE_MISC is defined in features.h << such a great explanation of wtf is wrong with all this shit.
trinque: justJanne: it's the whole socialist world's strategy
trinque: with scare quotes
trinque: best stated by mircea_popescu re: reproduce until there isn't anything extra, then divide it all until dead
justJanne: trinque: it makes me especially angry when this is combined with programmers who call themselves "engineers", but whose products stop working after just a decade
trinque: ah that was his?
mircea_popescu: fwiw, i happen to believe it is actually the correct strategy,
mircea_popescu: just, correct from a game theoretic perspective of genetics, not of individual humans.
trinque: it's what animal populations do right? boom and bust
trinque: justJanne: the problem there is economic; why give a shit what happens next year? we'll all be dead
justJanne: trinque: that’s one issue, sadly.
justJanne: in the past years, technology got worse
justJanne: microwave from 1980 still works, TV from '96 as well, PC from '98 is still in use.
justJanne: but phone from 2007 is EOL
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136459 << i agree, this is one of the better derivative works to be had on the basis of the phuctor results.
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 18:57:06; Apocalyptic: (the full factoring is interesting because it's the only way to compute the private exponent d)
ben_vulpes: <justJanne> your phone will burn through your clothes. And then ignite everything around it, before becoming a blob of molten lava << israelis came up with this one iirc
mircea_popescu: fully investigate the keys in question, cornerstone of which is, get d.
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard holy shiot wtf is that.
mircea_popescu: !up ko__
trinque: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/18/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-idUSKBN0O20M020150518 "U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said it was a "target of opportunity," that could be retaken in a matter of days, and U.S. officials insisted there would be no change in strategy despite a failure to make major advances against Islamic State."
trinque: does seem like if anything coherent is intended at all, it's to provoke a larger regional war
trinque: oh the irony that would be if someday the middle east is united in its hatred for the united states
mircea_popescu: such vietnam
mircea_popescu: to streamline administration ~~~and deregulate power to lower levels~~~
mircea_popescu: china will be un-fucking-stoppable.
trinque: sounds like they're going to put the fork in the dollar
mircea_popescu: if they implement even halfway...
justJanne: meh.
justJanne: the US is financing the saudi’s, who sell ISIS weapons, so technically the US is financing ISIS anyway
trinque: I think the Saudi's deserve some credit for the swindle there
mircea_popescu: "your dad brought you clothes, which you traded for drugs, so technically your dad bought you drugs"
justJanne: if the dad still gives you clothes, even though he knows what you’re doing...
justJanne: and the US is also selling weapons to the saudis directly, which they sold directly to ISIS
trinque: probably some faction of bastards in the US is actually aware of this, and others are not
trinque: there's not one coherent "they" to consider in regards to the country
justJanne: yeah, it’s not something the population can do anything against. it’s just inevitable with 2 parties that are both quite corrupt
justJanne: not that Germany would be better, with people like Gerhard Schröder >_>
mircea_popescu: is he bad ?
justJanne: He was a German chancellor in the social democrats party who reduced welfare spending, removed any kind of minimum wage ideas, added laws for some businesses, and changed several laws so that Gazprom could build a pipeline.
justJanne: the day after his time as chancellor ended, he got a job at Gazprom
justJanne: this guy betrayed everyone who voted for thim, and the rest of Germany, too
mircea_popescu: seems like they're all splendid ideas ?
justJanne: nope. Reducing unemployment money, removing minimum wage, etc is definitely not "good"
mircea_popescu: why not ?
justJanne: because everyone should have equal chances
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 22:57:22; jurov: ls -l
justJanne: because no one should have a disadvantage from choices they didn’t make.
justJanne: just because your parents are poor doesn’t mean you should have worse chances in life
mircea_popescu: why not ?
justJanne: because you aren’t responsible
mircea_popescu: of course you are. you work hard and save to give your kids a better chance.
justJanne: do you want to punish people for stuff they didn’t do, choices they didn’t make?
mircea_popescu: you don't expect every kids have equal chances, because that removes any incentive for you to do anything.
mircea_popescu: just float around.
justJanne: no, it doesn’t.
justJanne: nowadays we have basic income here even.
justJanne: people still work.
mircea_popescu: i punish people for what they are rather than what they want to be all the time.
mircea_popescu: heck, my whole life's built around this principle.
justJanne: then you might want to rethink your life.
mircea_popescu: one of us, at any rate.
justJanne: let’s say it like this, not even the literal nazis had such a right-wing idea about society. And they are nazis.
mircea_popescu: admittedly, i'm more like a 1700s mind.
justJanne: anyway, it works here.
mircea_popescu: to me, the difference between soviets and nazis is nil : both were socialists.
mircea_popescu: no, it doesn't. that's the fallacy of "we can't compare to any alternatives, as thery don't exist - so it works fine!!1"
mircea_popescu: ever read candide ?
justJanne: like 90% of all firemen here, for example, work for free. volunteers. No pay, nothing. They risk their lives for nothing, while still having a normal job at the same time.
trinque: why should they not be paid for dangerous work?
justJanne: because they are volunteers.
mircea_popescu: moreover, why is some people's preference a basis for law ?
mircea_popescu: let those firemen do whatever the fuck they please and pay me.
justJanne: the idea is: if society is well enough,
justJanne: then people will work literally for free,
mircea_popescu: society is about as meaningful a concept as baby jesus.
justJanne: just to provide a benefit for everyone
mircea_popescu: and yes, people behave stupidly all the time
mircea_popescu: this is no valid argument.
justJanne: it’s not stupid.
mircea_popescu: says who ?
justJanne: everyone?
mircea_popescu: apparently not.
justJanne: obviously it works well in the countries with the highest standard of living –
mircea_popescu: (and here we go again, The Narrative is fragile)
justJanne: all across scandinavia and central europe
mircea_popescu: no, it works absolutely nowhere.
mircea_popescu: just, some people are momentarily insulated from the effects of their stupidity.
mircea_popescu: just like - unprotected sex works fine "in those places where syplhilis hasn't appeared yet".
mircea_popescu: sure. won't last. by the very nature of what unprotected sex is, it won't last.
justJanne: that’s not the thing.
justJanne: this system of society has lasted for centuries
mircea_popescu: nope. it's barely five decades old, and already cracking.
justJanne: the volunteering fire brigade system has existed since the 1400s
mircea_popescu: ah, that. again : let those firemen do whatever the fuck they please and pay me.
justJanne: the consumer cooperatives operating non-profit chains of grocery stores have also existed since the 1800s
mircea_popescu: and necrophillic pedophillia has existed since 50`000 years ago.
mircea_popescu: so what of it ?
justJanne: It’s obviously more stable than the economical system plagued of bubble bursts that is existing at Wall Street nowadays
mircea_popescu: the system you discuss IS the other system you discuss.
mircea_popescu: there's no difference there, just a meaningless distinction.
mircea_popescu: well, if you manage to survive emotionally, your stay in #b-a is bound to be instructive.
justJanne: the first system I discuss in scandinavia or central europe is a place where 60% of the companies have existed for centuries, have long term neither profit nor losses, and no growth
justJanne: which isn’t really necessary
justJanne: tbh, it’s the only really sustainable way
trinque: sounds like an environment where it'd be difficult to get anything new started
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justJanne: not really. There are many startups here, actually.
justJanne: the thing is that most of these don’t aim for a huge profit,
justJanne: but aim for slow growth and a sustainable profit.
trinque: oh youngin
justJanne: yes, that actually works.
justJanne: you don’t need to aim for 1 billion users with your 5 people startup to be sustainable
trinque: you'll get no argument from me on that
trinque: but that is not tantamount to saying "therefore social democracy"
trinque: not even close
justJanne: ofc nto.
justJanne: we are at a completely different point now
justJanne: sadly.
jurov: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO5ectGTcOU justJanne: the "sustained" was just your luck that usg needed to prop you up
trinque: if we presuppose that the only way to start a business will be having someone bankroll you, we're already lost
trinque: central planning has limitations which will mean that you get far fewer "startups"
justJanne: trinque: that is socialism
justJanne: not social democracy
justJanne: social democracy consists of a social market:
trinque: justJanne: you just misunderstand my definition of central planning
justJanne: essentially a free market, but with 50% taxes and basic income
trinque: uh huh and who determined those are the magic numbers?
trinque: give me a low cost of living and don't tax the shit out of me and I'll start all kinds of businesses
justJanne: the people? that’s why you have (a) elections and (b) public polls on them?
justJanne: we have a party that aims for that.
trinque: determining that 50% taxes is the magic number is not soviet because "the people"
justJanne: they got less than 4% of the votes last election
danielpbarron: the people are stupid
justJanne: no. they just know that one day they might lose their job,
trinque: danielpbarron: heh I always like "surgery by your peers" as a thought experiment
justJanne: and that it is preferable to be safe over having high returns
trinque: justJanne: you are completely ignoring the financial considerations involved
trinque: and substituting "consent" for that
justJanne: trinque: you get all those 50% taxes back to you. In free child daycare, free healthcare, etc.
danielpbarron: high returns is a safeguard against starving when you lose your job; it leads to savings
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Morphine yeast seems like a bigger blow to the fiat order than 3D guns and shovel AK's for sure
justJanne: danielpbarron: unless you lose it all, and have no money and are starving
trinque: danielpbarron: and results in a person that can *make decisions*
trinque: justJanne: then you made bad decisions
trinque: or someone else did
justJanne: yes.
justJanne: but society is there to save you from the consequences of bad decisions ;P
trinque: so how did I get involved in that?
danielpbarron: why should someone who is prone to "lose it all" be propped up by his more productive neighbors?
justJanne: especially when you aren’t responsible
trinque: justJanne: so out of this bundle of bad decisons how do good ones emerge?
trinque: danielpbarron: because govt is the new god and he can save us from even death
trinque: or she, I guess these days
justJanne: danielpbarron: because they have a chance to work later on again?
danielpbarron: this notion that you can be born "not responsible" is the false axiom from which you base further positions
justJanne: it is more profitable, for example, to put criminals into a trade school and let them work again than to put them into a prison
mats: why should society save you from yourself? that's not sustainable in the least.
trinque: justJanne: you cannot assert such things absent the financial considerations
trinque: we can imagine all sorts of ideal scenarios if we're free to disregard parts of reality we don't like
jurov: yeah, it is actually true providing shelter to homeless is cheaper than let them die and dispose of properly
justJanne: so, in your minds, the Comcast/ATT/Verizon oligopol is good?
mats: oligopolies are not inherently evil, you know.
trinque: justJanne: what keeps them from being outcompeted?
danielpbarron: justJanne, your society is a prison; that is, the one in which there is no individual and only the considerations of the lowest common denominator
trinque: too much noise; one point at a time.
justJanne: trinque: cost.
trinque: incorrect
justJanne: the starting cost is extreme.
justJanne: and the oligopols lobby corrupt politicians, too
trinque: justJanne: are you familiar with "regulatory capture"
trinque: sure cost but what makes it expensive
justJanne: and yes, mats, in my opinion all monopolies or oligopolies are inherently evil
trinque: but not governments
mats: justJanne: because "its not fair"?
trinque: the largest of them
justJanne: mats: yes.
mats: because everyone should get a shot at being a telecoms company!
justJanne: mats: yes, but you have to ask the question different.
cazalla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137291 <<< i wouldn't send my dog to free childcare let alone my actually son
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:04:29; justJanne: trinque: you get all those 50% taxes back to you. In free child daycare, free healthcare, etc.
mats: sign me up. i don't know shit, but i can carry a gun. am i qualified?
mats: could do, like, perimeter security for a base station.
justJanne: mats: yes. my ISP I use right now is 5 geeks in a basement.
justJanne: I get 100/40mbps for 10$ a monht
justJanne: and they are profitable
cazalla: you might pay $100 to them in tax but you sure as fuck don't get back $100 worth of childcare when it's free
trinque: try doing radio experiments in your garage and see how long it takes for the FCC to show up
mod6: asciilifeform: thx for posting the werker
justJanne: cazalla: you haven’ŧ seen childcare here, I have – I was in it just 13 years ago ;P
cazalla: it shows
jurov: cazalla: so you'll pay $1000 for childcare instead?
mats: justJanne: b-but don't you believe in freedom?
mats: its entirely possible that monopolies, oligopolies will naturally arise in conditions of voluntary trade
justJanne: mats: your freedom ends where the freedom of the others begins
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mats: and you want, what, a coalition of retards (e.g. bureaucrats and commoners) to manage allocation of capital?
mats: but you'd bust that up, if you ran things.
justJanne: the current situation is ideal.
mats: but they're evil. you must fight evil.
justJanne: neither side is evil.
justJanne: only sith deal in absolutes
danielpbarron: what is the current situation?
hanbot: except monopolies?
trinque: danielpbarron: social democracy
justJanne: monopolies aren’t really "evil", they just develop out of greed
hanbot: butr you said...
justJanne: the issue with monopolies is that the companies behind it try to do everything in their mind to avoid competition.
justJanne: which is inherently evil
trinque: justJanne: you find me a "monopoly" in history that didn't have govt protection
justJanne: and rarely monopolies every arise without this
justJanne: trinque: Google on the search market
hanbot: how about jealous wives?
trinque: justJanne: fucking lol
trinque: you have no idea what a monopoly is
cazalla: jurov, nope, i'm anti-childcare, kids should be home with their parents, not strangers and other swine
trinque: it's not "oh no they're winning"
danielpbarron: she has no idea what "evil" is
mats: the point of being a business is to brutally murder your competition. there's no avoidance going on.
cazalla: my point was more that the idea that you get back what you pay in taxes by way of free healthcare and childcare is retarded
mats: it just happens that the moat is too high for joe commoner to cross.
jurov: cazalla: the $1000 figure stays even more so if you're to stay home
jurov: and if you pay your own doctor
jurov: own teacher
jurov: etc...
danielpbarron: cazalla, it's practically a mathematical proof : the further detached money gets from the person it is meant to benefit, the less efficiently it will be spent
justJanne: that’s why politicians are supposed to be normal people.
justJanne: my state’s governor uses the same bus as me every morning
danielpbarron: and i'm supposed to have a flying car already
cazalla: jurov, i would if i could, but i can't afford my own doctor.. i can afford to keep kid out of childcare
trinque: justJanne: many of the phrases you use are propaganda terms with no well defined meaning
trinque: "normal people" among them
justJanne: trinque: I am talking about "anyone can become politician"
cazalla: if you're gonna put your kids in childcare, ya may as well just kill em now and save yourself years of pain
trinque: justJanne: and derpy uncle Biden rode amtrak
jurov: and you trinque cazalla danielpbarron are talking about some ideal you can't afford anyway
trinque: so what
trinque: jurov: eh?
danielpbarron: i don't want to live in your socialist hell-hole where every man rides the same urine-smelling bus no matter how productive he is
trinque: jurov: if I had a kid right now I'd be able to pay for it just fine
justJanne: danielpbarron: it’s not urine-smelling, lol.
justJanne: even the 10yo busses aren’t.
jurov: danielpbarron: go on
justJanne: because people don’t do that.
trinque: issue isn't the smell of piss
jurov: danielpbarron: how we live in north korea
trinque: justJanne: the issue is your assumption that you have call to involve yourself in my affairs
trinque: as this aggregate "the people"
trinque: I say come and take it.
justJanne: Ah, the english article for "social democracy" is actually wrong
trinque departs for now
justJanne: that’s what I’m referring to
trinque: I will, bbl
danielpbarron: whatever you're referring to, the monstrosity has 50% tax rate!
justJanne: 44% here right now.
danielpbarron: disgusting
justJanne: and that’s including insurance
trinque: shit it's effectively 50 in the states too
trinque: danielpbarron: ^
justJanne: and life savings
justJanne: and retirement funds
jurov: danielpbarron: you will get separated from your money either way
trinque: and that's not counting the yearly evaporation of weath through currency debasement
danielpbarron: what do you mean it includes life savings?
justJanne: retirement funds, sorry
justJanne: translation is hard ;P
trinque: danielpbarron: people can't think for themselves and store away for the future
cazalla: justJanne, ya know what shit won't be there when you're older, right?
danielpbarron: right but how does it include that if it's taxes? the government forces you to have a savings plan?
trinque: so you just breed an irresponsible generation of fools and somehow those same fools don't inhabit the govt and make sure everyone has savings
justJanne: kinda, but not.
trinque pulls himself away
mats: i get that you grew up in a soft place, and believe all folks deserve a fair shot at doing whatever it is they feel
mats: its a beautiful notion. its also not going to happen unless we go post-scarcity, upon which we will revisit the whole thing
danielpbarron: except it's a very specific shot as per what the normal people voted on
justJanne: there are some laws: (a) every insurance has to provide a basic plan for the same price, (b) everyone has to have at least this plan, or more
mats: 'star trek' is a hell for some folks.
trinque: I'll prefer my firefly class vessel thank you
mats: yer a leaf on the wind
jurov: justJanne: do you know what this nordic model did to one Eric Naggum?
justJanne: mats: Star Trek is heaven, and an amazing solution. Although I’m thinking DS9 Star Trek, not TOS Star Trek
assbot: AMAZING COMPANY!
mats: 'solution'
trinque: mats: goddamn when jayne tears up over his very own riot
trinque: best tv there ever was
mats: replace with fantasy, man.
justJanne: mats: DS9-Star Trek is pretty much real.
danielpbarron: no wonder you think this can work; you saw it work on TV!
mats: trinque: its good stuff, i've watched every ep prob a half dozen times
justJanne: with a combination of free trade (think Quark), and basic life enough for everyone
danielpbarron: you know star trek is a work of fiction, right? those were all a bunch of professional liars
justJanne: yes, ofc.
danielpbarron: i don't think you fully grasp that
mats: you want free trade, but no monopolies or oligopolies.
justJanne: although, tbh, when watching politicians speak, you ask yourself who is the larger liar
danielpbarron: you're the one advocating for politicians
justJanne: mats: yes.
justJanne: read the nordic model again ;P
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mats: nordic model works because you live in a universe that appears utterly detached from economic reality
justJanne: the idea is that you have basic life just enough for everyone available,
jurov: danielpbarron: so you get to keep all your money, i ask again?
justJanne: and then you have a highly competitive, almost unrestricted market for the rest
danielpbarron: what money?
mats: because, well, benefits of superior geography.
jurov: danielpbarron: since you so hate taxes
mats: where the fuck are you going to raise capital for basic income in somalia?
jurov: mats leave that to billg
mats: somalia's not so different from the rest of the world. quite a bit ahead of its time, really
danielpbarron: justJanne, people who fall on hard times should be compelled into slavery by their more productive neighbors; they should not get to treat the whole community like their undeserved slave
danielpbarron: jurov, all but 0.1% of it :p
justJanne: you misuse the word "community"
justJanne: you can only live, and work, because of the people around you
mats: shall we talk about monopolies that benefit the commoners?
justJanne: and the same way the other way round
danielpbarron: no, I can work and live despite the people around me
justJanne: ah, the good old "I can live in a cave" defense
justJanne: I wonder how you’d do without the people taking away your trash, the people putting out the fires, the people cleaning your streets
danielpbarron: there wouldn't be streets if it were just me
danielpbarron: the situation would be so entirely different as to be impossible to compare
mats: lets use the US Postal Service as a model. something like 200 junk mailers are responsible for pumping $billions into the thing, and they pay a pretty penny to be able to shit in your box at commercial rates (in US, cost of letter is $0.49 -- junk mailers pay 5x that)
justJanne: let’s talk about different, benefitial monopolies.
mats: without junk mailers, we'd be paying several dollars apiece just to send letters. DHL, FedEx, ... simply couldn't exist without the USPS in USA
justJanne: nah, not really.
mats: because they are responsible for last mile delivery in many cases.
mats: yes, absolutely really.
justJanne: DHL makes most of its profit in one single place.
justJanne: in the place where Deutsche Post DHL has its main business:
justJanne: parcel and delivery service in Europe
justJanne: yes, they can transport a package for 20$ across the continent over night, and make a profit.
justJanne: sadly, the workers make nothing more than basic income from it
danielpbarron: sadly? why is that sad?
jurov: yes, raise minimal wages, fire everyone, replace with machines
justJanne: it is sad because under your assumptions those people shouldn’t work at all
justJanne: they make no more money,
justJanne: and spend their time!
mats: this is exactly how it is in the US.
justJanne: Then why do they still work?
mats: they don't.
mats: ~8mn draw supplementary security income, for example.
mats: folks in various programs draw $300-600/mo in govt kindness, and being worthless as they are,
justJanne: So, it's better to provide straight out subsidies than to have minimum wage?
justJanne: A minimum wage might encourage the company to actually be more efficient.
mats: would rather take it than work at McDonalds for just shy of a thousand bux a month
mats: subsidies AND minimum wages are a shit idea.
mats: you follow? let the market set the conditions.
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justJanne: Minimum wage doesn't hurt the market.
danielpbarron: justJanne, a minimum wage prices the cheap labor out of the market (the company will prefer not to hire them at all)
justJanne: Yes.
mats: you're high if you think setting a price floor in a market doesn't unduly affect market conditions
danielpbarron: so instead of making [not enough money], they will make 0.
mats: its time to give up the childish fantasies and carefully reexamine your beliefs
jurov: And high rents and other life costs won't "unduly affect market conditions"?
jurov: Pls explain
BingoBoingo still imagining tumblr folk brewing their own Laudnum. If opiate abuse is already straining the fiat world so...
justJanne: The median German pays less money for health care than the median US person.
justJanne: You pay more. And get less.
justJanne: You have higher taxes,
justJanne: And less free education or healthcare.
justJanne: and less welfare.
danielpbarron: i don't think anyone here is taking the side that the U.S. is a good example of how things should be
justJanne: It's not a childish fantasy of it's the currently best working system.
justJanne: If you want total anarchy, go to somalia, they live it.
BingoBoingo: Nah, go to Ferguson. They have community solidarity!!!
danielpbarron: it's a population that is still only a couple generations off from having the crap kicked out of it
justJanne: And if you break your leg and can't work for a month, you starve to death.
mats: jurov: you addressing me there with the quote?
jurov: mats, yes
danielpbarron: justJanne, I'm all for keeping people alive that would have otherwise starved to death. They just gotta be humbled by the experience; they aren't entitled to the help.
justJanne: They are.
justJanne: Because they played before 59% taxes for others.
justJanne: *50%
mats: jurov: i don't follow. so, because rent is high, folks should get a min wage/basic income
jurov: no mats. i'm saying you're going to be separated from your money either way
danielpbarron: justJanne, the point being, there are more solutions besides "let starve to death" and "steal from everyone to keep them alive"
jurov: so it does not make sense to argue either way
justJanne: danielpbarron: it's not stealing.
justJanne: If you want, you can move to Togo, or Monsanto City, or the Bahamas.
justJanne: And, as you stated, you deserve to be punished for being born here.
mats: it does matter, because govt involvement destroys price efficiency
justJanne: Not really true, either.
justJanne: It is often true,
mats: cost of living being high or wutever is immaterial, i think.
justJanne: But not necessary.
jurov: mats, you're not the first nor last fantsaizing of system without "govt involvement"
justJanne: Reminds me of Deutsche Bahn. A large railway company. Everything was fine, perfectly on time, cheap, profitable.
jurov: somehow, nothign came out of that
BingoBoingo: Eh, Monsanto's no so bad. The only problem with glyphosate is it doesn't always kill plants dead enough.
justJanne: Then they went to stock market and became a private company.
justJanne: Now Deutsche Bahn is slow, never on time, expensive, and not much more profitable either.
justJanne: Every. Single. Time. A governmentally owned institution got sold to a US investor they either closed down 2 days later, became shit, or just expensive.
justJanne: Every. Time.
mats: i recommend a stint as a govt employee
jurov: justJanne: it was govt involvement, dotcha know? :DDDD
danielpbarron: i think the key words in that story are "US investor"
justJanne: I don't care if the government owns the trains, as long as they are 100% on time, cheap, and fast.
danielpbarron: even if they are sometimes used to haul off political dissidents?
justJanne: That is not a part of the discussion.
jurov: lol, as if private enterprises never hauled political dissidents
justJanne: If the government rents a train for that (like Hitler did, the companies profited heavily) or if they own them (like the GDR did), changes nothing.
justJanne: But a governmental monopoly is always better than a private monopoly.
jurov: that's very bad statement
justJanne: Not really.
danielpbarron: that can't be true, and only appears to be because you use the united states as your example of the alternative
jurov: i have personal memories of govt monopolies in czechoslovakia
justJanne: And? Were they replaced by private competition or a private monopoly?
jurov: depends, some. but the is not the problem
justJanne: Assuming no corruption,
jurov: when everything is govt monopoly people who need autonomy, mastery and purpose suffer badly
justJanne: The private monopoly will have an incentive to provide the worst service possible, at the highest possible price.
justJanne: Yes.
justJanne: Most of the things need to be a competition, others need to be nonprofit monopolies.
danielpbarron: what's so bad about "the worst service possible" anyway ?
justJanne: Like the railway tracks, those can be nonprofit monopolies, while dozens of rail operators can rent them.
justJanne: danielpbarron: because that's shit?
justJanne: You want trains that operate every 20 minutes, at 240km/h, for 19€ across Europe,
danielpbarron: no, your totalitiarian government that forces me to raise my kids the normal way is what's bad
justJanne: Not shitty stuff.
justJanne: danielpbarron: you aren't forced to. You can also raise your children at home, ofc.
justJanne: At full pay.
mike_c: <+justJanne> Assuming no corruption, << this is where we enter star trek land?
justJanne: mike_c: kinda. But corruption makes discussion always useless.
mike_c: exactly
justJanne: Especially as the amount of corruption is very different on where you are, and when.
justJanne: But again, the idea of the Nordic model is huge personal freedom, at the same time a stable society that provides a great basis for everyone.
justJanne: And the personal freedom in the Nordic model is larger than in the US.
justJanne: Yes, somalia has more personal freedom, but again, try living there.
danielpbarron: you keep comparing your thing to the US
justJanne: Because the US is a reference point as worst case civilized country.
danielpbarron: shouldn't you compare your thing to my thing? (the thing i'm proposing)
justJanne: So, perfect free anarchy?
justJanne: Can you provide a real life example?
danielpbarron: The Most Serene Republic
danielpbarron: this channel is the example
justJanne: We don't accept fictional systems here, only ones that exist in reality.
justJanne: For this discussion.
danielpbarron: that's rich coming from a trekkie
justJanne: As everyone can claim their model would work.
BingoBoingo: To be fair Corruption is what makes the world go round
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danielpbarron: justJanne, your model works for as long as there is fiat money to manipulate
danielpbarron: which isn't for very much longer
justJanne: Not necessarily.
justJanne: The Nordic model works without currency.
justJanne: And, tbh, here no one cares about bitcoin.
danielpbarron: but does it work with bitcoin?
justJanne: Too high transfer fees, too slow transfers.
danielpbarron: that's ok, bitcoin doesn't care about them either
justJanne: But yeah, it would work with bitcoin.
danielpbarron: but you can't get your 50% from me..
justJanne: Why not?
danielpbarron: what is there to take?
justJanne: Your employer has to send that money to the govt.
danielpbarron: nobody owns any bitcoin
justJanne: You never see the 50%
danielpbarron: suppose my employer doesn't
danielpbarron: because my employer doesn't have a physical basis of operations
justJanne: Then you will have to pay them.
danielpbarron: and he claims juristiction in the Most Serene Republic, and not your joke of a country
danielpbarron: pay them what?
danielpbarron: how do you know I have even been paid?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44648 @ 0.00026546 = 11.8523 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: you don't pay for shelter, food nor transport?
justJanne: If you earn money in this country, work here (physical place of employer counts), or use your money, it will be taxed.
justJanne: If you earn your money outside, only use it outside, and so on,
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 171621 @ 0.00026204 = 44.9716 BTC [-] {3}
justJanne: You are technically a tourist.
danielpbarron: why would anyone want to be based out of your country and pay 50% when they can be based out of The Most Serene Republic and pay only 0.1% ?
jurov: will The Most Serene Republic cover your medical expenses in case of accident?
justJanne: The question is:
danielpbarron: jurov, those services will be provided by WoT members eventually I hope
jurov: well, i'm not holding my breath there
justJanne: Why should they live in the serene republic, where your insurance can run off with all your money, when they can live here, and have guaranteed healthcare?
danielpbarron: it's not a matter of where to live, but where to claim juristiction
justJanne: Nah.
justJanne: Where they do their physical work, rent a flat, but food — those things are taxes.
danielpbarron: but the reason is: keep 49.9% of your income and use the savings to buy healthcare later if you need it
justJanne: *taxed
justJanne: And what if you can't afford it at that point?
justJanne: Your system is flawed.
danielpbarron: then i become a slave or die i guess
justJanne: It helps make the rich richer,
danielpbarron: the rich should be richer
justJanne: And the poor poorer.
danielpbarron: the poor should be poorer
justJanne: But society is people,
justJanne: And people deserve to be treated equal.
danielpbarron: no they don't
justJanne: Then go live in the US.
danielpbarron: it's not what you imagine it is
justJanne: In a few years, the US will have reached the level of freedom that somalia has.
justJanne: Tbh, I like cities where you have to use the bike.
justJanne: With less than 47% of the people owning cars, and everyone using bikes, public transport, and walking, the amount of overweight people reduces drastically.
justJanne: Okay, bbl, it's 3am
danielpbarron: i ride a bike everywhere in the spring/summer
BingoBoingo: Bikes don't have a clear niche where the really beat pedestrianism, motorcarriages, or rocket plane
justJanne: They do.
danielpbarron: oh they clearly beat walking
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79745 @ 0.00026136 = 20.8422 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: I dunno anything beats walking.
jurov: !up joshbuddy
justJanne: If you have small narrow streets, distances between 10 and 15 km, and a huge amount of people on tiny space,
justJanne: Bike is the only solution. (Or public transport)
BingoBoingo: Or walk longer, speed is overrated
danielpbarron: i bike amongst a sea of cars (ct shoreline gets crazy in the summer)
justJanne: Not helpful at 10-15km distance.
BingoBoingo: That's not really all that far on foot
justJanne: Almost all parcel companies, pizza delivery services, etc use bikes Jere for that reason.
justJanne: BingoBoingo: I walk that much daily, I know.
justJanne: Still it's not a distance that makes a car useful, but would be ideal for biking.
justJanne: Anyway, 3am, bbl
danielpbarron: car beats bike if money isn't a consideration
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 258100 @ 0.00025836 = 66.6827 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72000 @ 0.00026137 = 18.8186 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: !up pet_dushenski
BingoBoingo: !up pete_dushenski
pete_dushenski: oh hello world.
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:48:25; mats: i recommend a stint as a govt employee
pete_dushenski: a year, mebbe a year and a half is perfectly sufficient to understand the insanity-on-a-stick that is state-run anything.
mod6: all you need is one trip to the post office
pete_dushenski: canada post is actually decent.
pete_dushenski: post offices are just a special counter in a corner of pharmacies
midnightmagic: Medicine here is good too, as are government-run car insurance corps which have superior prices to private enterprises elsewhere in Canada.
midnightmagic: Stats canada provides superior-quality reports to private enterprise. Environment Canada is the source for pretty much all weather everywhere in Canada.. Health Canada has very little politics in it, necessarily.
pete_dushenski: gov-run services in canada also service relatively few people and are unforgivably expensive.
pete_dushenski: and the relative quality of their output compared to the derpy canadian private enterprises still doesn't speak to how poorly they're run.
pete_dushenski: they're mostly funded and staffed to the rafters.
pete_dushenski: and they're awful to work for if you have ambition and half a functioning intellect.
mats: i witnessed a pretty serious amount of theft and graft, even at the company level in .mil
mats: can't imagine the kind of devilry a bent brigade quartermaster or commander can get up to
decimation: mats: ever seen sgt bilko?
mats: nah, heard of it though, i'll add it to ma list
decimation: it's funny. the troupe of the corrupt supply sergeant probably has a good basis in fact
decimation: of course, 'corrupt' can mean 'good at acquiring stuff without respect to derpy rules'
mats: it absolutely does
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77750 @ 0.00027022 = 21.0096 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: "Stats canada provides superior-quality reports to private enterprise." < what private enterprise provides reports on derpy bureaucracy?
pete_dushenski: lol right. "we make the best reports on the things we ate for breakfast. they're quite unparalleled in detail and accuracy."
mats: in my short stint, i shit you not, things like uparmored vehicles, munitions, and all sorts of tactical gear (e.g. night vision goggles, range finders, body armor) vanished into thin air, leaving the commander on the hook
mats: this occurred under the management of three supply dudes, each of them who successively transferred to another unit before shit hit the fan, and to my knowledge nobody's been locked up yet
decimation: mats did you see that econtalk link I posted about lying in the military
mats: no
mats: yup
mats: there is this thing known as "zero defect" officers
decimation: yeah he talks about that
decimation: 'everyone knows' they are lying
mats: because of the structure of officer corps, evaluations bear enormous weight, and you simply cannot ever fuck up
mats: because its "up or out", if you aren't worthy of a promotion according to n metrics, you gtfo
decimation: yep. Really us mil's problem is that is majorly officer heavy
decimation: if some random staff officer can demand that every 2lt must sign for whatever derpy training or equipment kind invalidates the 'chain of command'
decimation: which is imaginary anyway
mats: well, in that instance, company/batt/brigade cdr is responsible for managing an effective command environment
decimation: sure, and rather than trusting in his judgment, usg sees fit to shower him with thousands of 'requirements'
mats: the ugly status of officer corps is why i didn't stay in ROTC in univ
decimation: they talk the talk, but the actual 'walk' is 'play the bureaucratic/democratic politics game'
mats: the skimming going on was incredible lol
mats: even the cooks were doing it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101000 @ 0.0002657 = 26.8357 BTC [-] {2}
danielpbarron: !up O2made
mats: fuckers would feed us pasta, one or two meatballs, and week old salad as often as they could
mats: meanwhile they pocket 70% of what the unit actually allotted for a meal
decimation: mats: I shudder to think about what the rest of usg is up to
mats: pallets of MREs would regularly go missing at the end of field exercises
decimation: pallets
decimation: I guess you could sell on ebay
mats: which is why you can buy MREs for three bux when USG pays twelve per iirc
mats: yeah eBay
mats: check out the seller's profile
mats: this guy definitely knows a bent supply dude
decimation: one wonders why the hell usg doesn't investigate this kind of stuff
decimation: I guess they are 'too busy'
BingoBoingo: Guy seems awfully close to Leonard Wood
mats: fort lost in the woods -- never again.
mats fondly remembers training event where we were forced to go MOPP 3 (overboots, gas mask, most of the NBC gear) with body armor and run around the track on a summer afternoon
decimation: I had a friend who went to 'real' MOPP training - he was suited in a room with VX gas.
decimation: he said it took several hours to donn/duff the gear
mats: i have a hard time believing VX was used in a training event
decimation: he might have been bullshitting
BingoBoingo: This weekend I was traveling the still more southern parts of illinois, saw the first wild armadillo I've seen east of the missippi
mats: when you can just dissolve a tablet of CS in a spray bottle
BingoBoingo: The wild of armadillo was of course in it's natural state dead on the side of the road
decimation: "Soldiers from all branches of the Armed Forces, civilian first responders, and some foreign military attend the chemical school for training in various types of chemical detection and survival through several courses including practice in a hot zone where actual toxic agents such as the Sarin and VX nerve agents."
decimation: you couldn't pay me enough for that shit
mats: guys in the chemical corps were some of the most crazy ive ever met
decimation: there's no doubt that a 'real' chemical attack is gonna result in alot of deaths
decimation: the game is just to minimize it I guess
mats: chemical weapons are only useful for propaganda
mats: absurdly expensive compared to the cost of a 5.56 round
decimation: under the right conditions I guess they could kill alot of people
decimation: the main problem with chemical weapons is the 'moral debt' they incur
decimation: you start gasing the enemy's cities, he can nuke/gas yours
trinque: antisocialist thread went about as I thought
trinque: glad I drank wine at ben_vulpes' office instead
decimation: I suspect one cannot be against 'basic income' and 'insurance for all' without being a nazi in modern germany
trinque: yeah I'm sure that informs the "modern" sensibilities
trinque: dad beat mom, son is a radical feminist
mats: fun fact: there is a Turing-complete printer control VM in the winders kernel
trinque autisms in the corner
decimation: http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0302/US-grants-German-homeschoolers-asylum.-Will-others-follow "But German media have portrayed the case as an insult to the German system. Many Germans are shocked to learn that 1.5 million children in the US are homeschooled and that the practice is legal in countries like France, Italy, and Ireland.
trinque: mats: windows' spooler thing has a language in it?
decimation: ^ more nordic freedom
mats: trinque: yep.
trinque: well that's good.
trinque: this extensibility thing is braindamage
trinque: dev is insecure about whether his app covers all cases so he does things like that, builds a goddamn scripting layer into the thing because you know printing needs that
trinque: then 5 years later that's a part of history and you can't change that, who are you?
mats: another fun fact: there's also a Turing-complete PostScript VM in the kernel
trinque: NT or linux?
mats: ^___^
mats: NT.
BingoBoingo: I thought you were going to say both
trinque: history will hold that Windows was specifically intended for maximal didling
trinque: *diddling
mats: i dunno all that much about linux tbh
trinque: BingoBoingo: this probably means CUPS is too
trinque: postscript is probably itself turing complete
trinque: yup it is
BingoBoingo: CUPS is weird. Sometimes it just works, othertimes catches fire.
trinque: the perception is probably due to myriad shitty filters and ppd's by printer manufacturers
mats: you'd think there's not a good reason for the kernel to need PostScript
trinque: apparently there are good reasons for all kinds of rape these days
mats: but... you need it for printer stuff and fonts
mats: for the enterprising d00d there r a number of 0days in there
mats: go get em before server 2003 EOL
trinque: nah after's even better
trinque: you know nobody that fields that crap upgrades anything
trinque: next time you're in a restaurant try to spot the XP running on the terminals
trinque: I've seen 2k
trinque: praise to the guy still using the DOS point of sale... I bet nobody knows how to break into that anymore
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20108 @ 0.00025339 = 5.0952 BTC [-]
mats: uh huh
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