Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-01-05 | 2015-01-07 → ↓
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17250 @ 0.00063731 = 10.9936 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28900 @ 0.00066266 = 19.1509 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: o look, nubsy
mircea_popescu: finally found the internet end of the cable ?
mircea_popescu: o look, another one lol.
mircea_popescu: neways, enough excitement for one night. laters!
punkman: asciilifeform: not everyone can afford golden toilet, but anyone can have a throne with ipv6. << relevant http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6370_-_en_-_saal_g_-_201412281900_-_internet_of_toilets_-_tbsprs.html#video
assbot: C3TV -Internet of toilets ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD7KNm )
asciilifeform: quotes the dollar officially at 12 bolivars. meanwhile, black rate is ~17 << mega-lol!! >> at one point, iirc, 'vanity' exchange rate of soviet ruble was 12 per usd.
asciilifeform: (yes, people found ways to 'milk' it.)
assbot: The Five Stages of Collapse: Survivors' Toolkit - Dmitry Orlov - Google Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMOThs )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16487 @ 0.00066355 = 10.9399 BTC [+]
assbot: Major Problems with TR-069 - RouterCheck ... ( http://bit.ly/1HDc5QC )
assbot: C3TV -Too Many Cooks - Exploiting the Internet-of-TR-069-Things ... ( http://bit.ly/1HDc671 )
punkman: so where do I get real router again?
punkman: or rather PCI dsl modem
asciilifeform: 'openwrt' etc, on hardware of reasonable vintage
asciilifeform: build - personally.
asciilifeform: (this gets you over the arguably low bar of having the router be no more exploitable than the machine(s) it is connected to...)
punkman: as in old router/modem thingy?
asciilifeform: as in something that doesn't have a multitude of undocumented internal sub-cpu cores running fuck knows what
asciilifeform: (see earlier 'arm' threads)
asciilifeform: must remind readers that your machines are as 'real' - or unreal - as you are.
asciilifeform: would you buy an x86 pc box and use it with the factory-installed softs? no? then why would you do this with router ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26406 @ 0.00066355 = 17.5217 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4535 @ 0.00065246 = 2.9589 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29515 @ 0.00066764 = 19.7054 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12467 @ 0.00066934 = 8.3447 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8650 @ 0.00067046 = 5.7995 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10733 @ 0.00066982 = 7.1892 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19700 @ 0.00063473 = 12.5042 BTC [-] {2}
[]bot: Bet created: "Light Sweet Crude Oil (WTI) to drop under $40 before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1096/
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for Yes on "Light Sweet Crude Oil (WTI) to drop under $40 before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1096/ Odds: 96(Y):4(N) by coin, 96(Y):4(N) by weight. Total bet: 1.12 BTC. Current weight: 99,703.
cazalla: BitBet.us - Rejected - that feeling of failure :\
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11700 @ 0.00062865 = 7.3552 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23000 @ 0.00062519 = 14.3794 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8006 @ 0.00062865 = 5.033 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19100 @ 0.00062892 = 12.0124 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14244 @ 0.00062903 = 8.9599 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22900 @ 0.0006405 = 14.6675 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8906 @ 0.00063521 = 5.6572 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3350 @ 0.00062969 = 2.1095 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14150 @ 0.00062519 = 8.8464 BTC [-]
cazalla: woohoo, go to shops, find an intact tower on side of road otw back
cazalla: "property of IBM Australia Credit Limited"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14700 @ 0.00062687 = 9.215 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6650 @ 0.00062519 = 4.1575 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23193 @ 0.00062446 = 14.4831 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22722 @ 0.00063318 = 14.3871 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2375 @ 0.00079899 = 1.8976 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3150 @ 0.00065028 = 2.0484 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18900 @ 0.00064844 = 12.2555 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8400 @ 0.00062913 = 5.2847 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29400 @ 0.00062236 = 18.2974 BTC [-] {2}
mike_c: ;;later tell jurov re: dec. qntra shares http://dpaste.com/3FJ1DGC
assbot: dpaste: 3FJ1DGC ... ( http://bit.ly/1DtDBNU )
mike_c: oh. doh. stupid gribble
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2678 @ 0.00061857 = 1.6565 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29300 @ 0.00061615 = 18.0532 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39822 @ 0.00062137 = 24.7442 BTC [+] {2}
TomServo: !up nubbins`
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37715 @ 0.0006136 = 23.1419 BTC [-] {3}
thestringpuller: nubbins`!!
thestringpuller: sir nubbins` returns for the btc apocalypse
nubbins`: greetings, fellow wealthy elite
TomServo: !up Naphex
Naphex: thanks
thestringpuller: how goes it nubbins` curator and creator of dee arts
TomServo: !up nubbins`
TomServo: nubbins`: if you're still wanting to see your work in the wild, here you go: http://i.imgur.com/EAXAWHL.jpg
nubbins`: busy
nubbins`: oh, right on!
nubbins`: #52, that's pretty low
nubbins`: in fact, #2 from the publicly-available ones :D
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00061287 = 9.8059 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00063966 = 14.8401 BTC [+]
thestringpuller: glad to know you haven't been kidnapped by terrorists mr. nubbins`
jurov: mike_c thanks!
nubbins`: or have i
mike_c: yw. a few bitcents in the tip jar :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8400 @ 0.00061287 = 5.1481 BTC [-]
jurov: ;;later tell mircea_popescu care to send qntr shares over?
mike_c: gribble is still dead
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10429 @ 0.00063966 = 6.671 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25650 @ 0.00063391 = 16.2598 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15523 @ 0.00063966 = 9.9294 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 155 @ 0.00670182 = 1.0388 BTC [-] {9}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 127 @ 0.00807821 = 1.0259 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21971 @ 0.00064356 = 14.1397 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18244 @ 0.00063088 = 11.5098 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: dpaste: 1BV7FCV ... ( http://bit.ly/1DfTV7U )
BingoBoingo: !up pete_dushenski
jurov: BingoBoingo: good but it needs a destination
jurov: it's the same as last month?
pete_dushenski: lol this is the random trilema post that just popped up for me: http://trilema.com/2013/any-questions/
assbot: Any questions ? pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DfWiaJ )
pete_dushenski: ^fitting
mike_c: oh i miss mpoe-pr: "Yes, for as long as you don't try to take them out they're safe."
pete_dushenski: those years in the trenches...
pete_dushenski: mike_c so anything exciting in the pipeline for btcalpha ?
mike_c: much improved bitbet analyzer coming soon. it is being stubborn about getting finished, but it will happen.
pete_dushenski: i've used it a few times
pete_dushenski: can't say it terribly influenced my decisions, or if it did, not for the better.
mike_c: hehe. more betting!
pete_dushenski: the optimised tangent always encourages what is imo over-betting
mike_c: well, the "correct" amount to bet depends on what you think the % chance of the event happening is.
pete_dushenski: "pot odds"
mike_c: the new analyzer will tell you how much to bet based on your input of % of event happenning.
pete_dushenski: heh i like the sound of that
pete_dushenski: mike_c don't suppose there's been any bidders for wol eh ?
mike_c: nope
pete_dushenski: what did it cost to build ?
mike_c: six months of my life and $5k?
pete_dushenski: let's say you're worth $100k per year? so $55 k.
mike_c: i am worth much more than that.
pete_dushenski: lol this we know ;)
mike_c: (not that i'm bitter)
pete_dushenski: but your net worth != your hypothetical salary either
pete_dushenski: your salary would be based on your skills as applied to this project
mike_c: how much do you think it would cost to hire someone to build something like that and trust that it would be done well?
mike_c: your estimation was $50 / hr. I doubt that is the case.
pete_dushenski: well a decent lawyer is $350/hr
pete_dushenski: let's say we're talking that level of professionalism
mike_c: that is excessive. call it $100/hr.
pete_dushenski: ok, so wol is $105k.
mike_c: feels right
pete_dushenski: surprisingly close to the ~500 btc ipo
pete_dushenski: if you have $200 btc, which we almost do
pete_dushenski: but of course the cost to build doesn't equal the value of the finished product
pete_dushenski: a useful product should be valued much higher, a useless product much lower
pete_dushenski: anyways, now we know that mike_c is $100/hr!
mike_c: don't believe it. i'm not for hire :)
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3XHEG1P.txt )
assbot: Xoom Corp. CFO resigns after fraudsters steal $30.8M in corporate cash - San Francisco Business Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dg3uDG )
mircea_popescu: pity i hadn't made a derp for THIS one.
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski: ^fitting << hehe not bad eh.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14297 @ 0.00062758 = 8.9725 BTC [-] {2}
pete_dushenski: prescient!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11628 @ 0.00065027 = 7.5613 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: i guess the largest shock to noobs is swallowing the actual history of mp-*, as it was.
mircea_popescu: too livresque for reason.
mircea_popescu: jurov: ;;later tell mircea_popescu care to send qntr shares over? << aye.
assbot: Remittance Company Xoom Loses Corporate Cash To Fraud | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1IlQryE )
mircea_popescu: check that out, this new year was 1420070400. at some point during ny eve it crossed 1,42 trillion
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14256 @ 0.000655 = 9.3377 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo if you add another whole paragraph about how dollars are inherently unsafe, used by terrorists and probably not going to "make it", culled directly from the idiocy spewed by idiots about btc
mircea_popescu: i'd love you long time.
mircea_popescu: should be standard practice for any article mentioning fiat. the msm is doing it to us, obviously we'll be doing it to them. let teh public pick up the pieces.
assbot: Love how Zuckerberg talks about books as if they are funky new app he has discovered. From /thetimes http://t.co/rum1YGcSt8
pete_dushenski: and i'm off. cheers!
mircea_popescu: i really don't think they should be called books properly.
mircea_popescu: clearly they infringe on facebook intellectual propertahs.
BingoBoingo: updated
mircea_popescu: i dun think it saved or something ?
BingoBoingo: I didn't add much this time. Gotta think of more lines for future fiat articles.
mircea_popescu: yeh not very good.
mircea_popescu: mainly because it somehow elides that the problem is the dollar.
mircea_popescu: anyway, too lazy to go into the 2012-2013 collection of "media" derpage.
BingoBoingo: Takes time to get the venom ready. There's bound to be other stories to dip in the venom when its ready.
mircea_popescu: tis a point hehe
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25925 @ 0.00065029 = 16.8588 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: it occurs to me... it must suck to be a lesbian. i mean a real one, the whatever, .4% demographic.
mircea_popescu: not only are your odds of finding a like minded soul vanishingly tiny, but you're deluged in all the fat idiots who think that they may "hate men", as something that's at their disposal, and it's your job and obligation to humor them, because "you're different".
mircea_popescu: and will raise hell if you dare observe that they're the same stinky, unbearable, impossible idiots that men think they are, pretending lesbianism is not a magical cure.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile gay men have for one thing five to ten times as many legit other gay men to meet, and looser dudes make up "men going alone" clubs instead of deciding they're now gay and the gay community must turn itself into mcdonalds to accomodate them.
thestringpuller: cazalla: back yet?
bitstein: Gavin just posted this. Thought y'all would be interested: http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2015/01/looking-before-scaling-up-leap.html
assbot: GavinTech: Looking before the Scaling Up Leap ... ( http://bit.ly/1xOTk8l )
asciilifeform: axe-time, sword-time, coming closer
mircea_popescu: i can't be arsed to read blogspot junk.
mircea_popescu: maybe if someone important said something. maybe.
TomServo: What would Gavin be referring to when he says "the reference implementation"?
mircea_popescu: systemd, perhaps.
mircea_popescu: i dunno that they have much other reference.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, gavin hasn't been making any sense for a long time now.
TomServo: Yes, and reading this makes that ring even more true.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla check out the power and influence of bitbet. so, there's http://bitbet.us/bet/962/obama-approval-rating-over-45-in-2014/
assbot: BitBet - Obama Approval Rating over 45% in 2014 :: 0.16 B (53%) on Yes, 0.14 B (47%) on No | closed 2 weeks 5 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1xOWMjn )
assbot: Presidential Approval Ratings -- Barack Obama | Gallup Historical Data & Trends ... ( http://bit.ly/1xOWN76 )
mircea_popescu: NEVER throughout the year has it been over 45
mircea_popescu: except they shoved a 46 in there at the end for the first week of 2015. which, of course, includes three days of 2014.
mircea_popescu: this was a coincidence, right ? and gallup actually conducts its polls, like irl, right ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17250 @ 0.00061584 = 10.6232 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu achtung
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu incoming pgp
mircea_popescu: coolness.
kakobrekla: yes, the power of coincidence is great power.
Apocalyptic: wtf blogspot doesn't load at all without js, seriously... bitstein could you post a text pastebin ?
assbot: Looking before the Scaling Up Leap - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1xBMVyG )
Apocalyptic: thank you
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5575 @ 0.00062973 = 3.5107 BTC [+]
jurov: BingoBoingo thestringpuller : qntra shares transferred
mircea_popescu: scoopbot -fetch
mircea_popescu: !echo scoopbot -fetch
thestringpuller: jurov: thank you
mircea_popescu: bitstein thanks for the pastebin.
kakobrekla: heh, i sent some ppl to check the logs sometimes, mostly i get back "what language is this, english?"
mircea_popescu: i guess it's time to write a post about all this.
bitstein: You're welcome
rithm: 20mb blocks eh
rithm: 200mb blocks even
scoopbot: New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/oil-theory/
thestringpuller: lol scoopy scoopy doo
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: do we have to bring our own pitchforks or will they be provided for us?
kakobrekla: >Oil does not come out of the ground naturally,
asciilifeform: presently true
kakobrekla: well it was discovered by coming out of the ground naturally.
mircea_popescu: wtf was the buterin scamcoin called, eleuterium ?
mircea_popescu: eleusys ?
asciilifeform: 'etherium'
Apocalyptic: wasn't it "ethereum" ?
TomServo: Yes.
kakobrekla: oh wow they had 8 POC implementations so far.
kakobrekla: they will run out of money by the 60th.
TomServo: Another 2k or so left their wallet recently, incidentally.
kakobrekla: how much left?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19387 @ 0.00063255 = 12.2632 BTC [+]
Apocalyptic: they will be resupplied as long as derps have money I fear
kakobrekla: left to leave
asciilifeform: waterfall.
kakobrekla: i doubt they will get resupplied tbh
TomServo: 17,521.36256657
Apocalyptic: kakobrekla, wait for the new exclusive presale of new ethers, -50% NOW !
TomServo: Only gone down from the 27,000ish peak around Sep 1
asciilifeform: i dare to suggest a possible term for another thing the ethereum folks do; 'chump fracking'
asciilifeform: just as in hydraulic fracturing, foreign substance is pumped into the earth to liberate the goods,
kakobrekla: which is ?
asciilifeform: synthetic chumps (btc stolen by usg organs) is pumped into eth
kakobrekla: paper btc
asciilifeform: not only to drive waterfall directly, but to create an appearance of a 'happening', 'hot' chumpatron
asciilifeform: and bring in the naturally-occurring but recalcitrant chumpers.
kakobrekla: as far as i understand sibert now runs paper fund
kakobrekla: silbert*
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13231 @ 0.00061737 = 8.1684 BTC [-] {2}
kakobrekla: how much did he have under his belt anyway, 20k, 200k ? i forgot
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9681 @ 0.00061415 = 5.9456 BTC [-]
assbot: If you go on a Bitcoin fork, irrespective which scammer proposes it, you will lose your Bitcoins. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgNTE2 )
TomServo: Found a coidesk article from April saying 100k
mircea_popescu: sort-of news.
mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> as far as i understand sibert now runs paper fund << kinda my understanding as well. but hey, if his customers are happy with it...
mircea_popescu: oh and bitstein ^
mircea_popescu: now if mod6 an' ben_vulpes + whoever else can contribute get snappy with the actual foudnation work, the beheading of gavin's pretense will come exactly in time for a smooth transition to a muchly superior alternative.
asciilifeform feels guilt re: mod6-vuples foundation, almost like it were a bastard son he can't quite afford to feed
mircea_popescu: i dun imagine they'll pretend like they "tested" it in less than a few months, so there's still a season i'd guess.
asciilifeform is sitting on a shameful quantity of unfinished patches for their apparatus
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu: which one(s) of you is even doing the merges, anyway ?
mircea_popescu: i thought jurov
mircea_popescu: wasn't he maintaining the list an errything ?
asciilifeform: list, yes. wasn't sure about the tree itself
asciilifeform vaguely recalls ben_vulpes having wangled together an autobuilder of sorts
mircea_popescu: and, of course, much like in the case of the "ethereum short" nobody actually bought, here is me looking for counterparties willing to buy gavin-bitcoins on the understanding that the transaction will only be valid on the gavin fork, but not in actual bitcoin.
asciilifeform: the 'gaw' crap boggles my mind. how is this shit even still possible.
mircea_popescu: ideally 1k+ piles.
asciilifeform: it has to be chump fracking.
mircea_popescu: yes, it is.
kakobrekla: gaw is not usg powered
kakobrekla: just greed.
asciilifeform: on the contrary, synthetic chumpfracking fluid is a usg product.
mircea_popescu: stupidity i thought, but yes.
mircea_popescu: who implied us powering ?
kakobrekla: ascii did with the fracking.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah, they're naturally that clueless.
mircea_popescu: i mean if you must, in a very 3rd hand way, "through ruining public schools" or w/e.
asciilifeform: from whence come the mass of idiot coin, though
mircea_popescu: what brings you over mquin ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform from the fertile union of a very strong "must succeed" ideology and a very narrow "math is hard" cluelessness.
mquin: mircea_popescu: we seem to be getting questions about this channel and cloaking quite regularly lately
mircea_popescu: !s from:t
assbot: 19 results for 'from:t' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3At
mircea_popescu: there's the previous discussion with t[homas] ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, includes a pastebin of the #freenode discussion etc.
kakobrekla: so if the majority of miners accepts the fork mpex is out of luck ?
mircea_popescu: if a majority of miners accepts the fork they still have to relay and mine all my txn.
mircea_popescu: for as long as there's one miner that doesn't, however...
kakobrekla: aha youll open a pool.
mircea_popescu: this is one of those requiring absolute consensus.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla all i need really is a tiny miner. even gpus will do.
mircea_popescu: heck, if 99% of miners move to the fake chain all the better - lower real diff for a while.
mircea_popescu: the fake coins they mine won't actually be worth anything once the fake chain dies. sort-of longest orphan block in history.
kakobrekla: vs the gpu miners :)
mircea_popescu: hey, this is what people with gpus wanted all along, right ? a chance to mine again.
mircea_popescu: if any of the asic farms is stupid enough to update (which is sort-of doubt, but hey, stupidity is bottomless) then they get their wish.
asciilifeform: 'lenin is young again!' (tm)
mircea_popescu: notably, at absolutely no cost. it's like a gift.
kakobrekla: i dont think asics needs upgrading
mircea_popescu: who can say no to gifts.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla "upgrading" in the limited sense of building on a 1mb+ block.
mircea_popescu: which no miner currently does.
kakobrekla: yes but switching is not something that takes time or resources.
mircea_popescu: well no, switching doesn't. but mining in the dead chain takes as many resources as you're willing to throw at it.
kakobrekla: for pool op is something like apt-get update and done
mircea_popescu: might as well mine the wall.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, if anyone wants to make a pool for the purpose that can't hurt anything.
assbot: [OPEN] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgUhLt )
mircea_popescu: artifexd ya was just looking for you in the list lol
artifexd: I have decided that I like this ircd project.
mircea_popescu: can you actually do it ?
artifexd: I like it to the point of being willing to commit time to do it.
mircea_popescu: am i s/open/artifexd/ ?
assbot: [OPEN] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgV4fg )
asciilifeform: answerd
artifexd: Would you like to discuss in here or keep it in the comments?
asciilifeform believes that the scheme as originally described is disastrously mistaken
mircea_popescu: coments best!
artifexd: mircea_popescu> am i s/open/artifexd/ ? << huh?
rithm: port 1337 tho kinda elitist don't you think
TomServo: Nah, just leetist
rithm: 7000 would be more in line as a "standard" irc port with security
asciilifeform: but this isn't irc !
TomServo: a port is a port
rithm: riiiight
asciilifeform: has no one actually -read- the thing ?
artifexd: mircea_popescu> can you actually do it ? << There are mad amounts of detail to work out. That said, yes. I can do it.
rithm: so it's a new rfc and interoperability means nothing
rithm: i forgot it's unicorn land please continue
kakobrekla: i think the idea is to fix shit, not make it more beautiful.
rithm: seems like centralized mechanism to prevent mitm, really only becomes decentralize with more /links
asciilifeform: centralized ?
asciilifeform: rithm: did you actually read mircea_popescu's article ?
rithm: i think i'm looking at it now
assbot: DerbyCon 3 0 2306 Uncloaking Ip Addresses On Irc Derek Callaway - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgWMx6 )
mircea_popescu: artifexd am i editing the thing to reflect you're doin' it.
rithm: b. A list of IPs
rithm: the "thing" scales with /links to other "things"
mircea_popescu: <rithm> port 1337 tho kinda elitist don't you think << yes, i do.
rithm: so the client is the server in this scenario or not? is it more p2p or not because i'm not seeing this definition in the language
punkman: (and some text related to video http://decal.sdf.org/spotfedsonline/ )
assbot: Spot The Fed: Online Edition ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgXcDI )
rithm: traditional irc is clinet/server but this isn't irc
mircea_popescu: there is no "Server"
mircea_popescu: much like in bitcoin, some will run larger clients which people can reliably connect to.
mircea_popescu: but they'd still be running the client code, more or less.
rithm: if it scales verically like "interaction" with this thing creates a new "server" then that doesn't sound centralized
mircea_popescu: <rithm> so it's a new rfc and interoperability means nothing << interoperability with what ?
asciilifeform: active thread on mircea_popescu's site, btw
rithm: not that architecture, but I'm not reading that definition on trilema
rithm: TFA title says ircd but it's not something to interoperate with any known ircd correct
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8900 @ 0.00061415 = 5.4659 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: correct.
asciilifeform: perhaps misleading title, 'better ircd', i admit i almost postponed reading it when first saw on account of this
mircea_popescu: ftr, the car was called "a better horse buggy" originally.
punkman: forward secrecy would be nice if possible
mircea_popescu: if one doesn't buy into the entire "branding, even if or especially if before the fact" one's stuck with this. i don't mind it so much.
mircea_popescu: punkman forward secrecy is a one on one affair, mostly. the salt is supposed to implement as much as it's possible, and the lack of signatures.
mircea_popescu: perhaps i don't actually see the whole ball there tho.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i argue that all transmissions must be signed, if this is to be the thing it is really meant to be.
mircea_popescu: but seriously, let's move all discussion on the article, otherwise it'll be hard to fish from logs later on
mircea_popescu shall make further responses there.
assbot: Score so far: Gavin's fork, 0BTC | MP's fork killer, 1 million BTC? : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgYLBR )
assbot: [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgZHpO )
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> heck, if 99% of miners move to the fake chain all the better - lower real diff for a while. << why if 99% of miners move onto that chain, would anyone ever move off?
mircea_popescu: because they can't spend the fake btc they "mined"
mircea_popescu: (i don't mean technically, i mean financially, nobody's accepting it for value)
jurov: but if 99% of miners move to the fake chain, then it will take years till difficulty adjusts.. or we§d have to fork it and adjust anyway
mircea_popescu: from the perspective of the blockchain, the situation is identical to "what woud happen if 99% of miners turned their rigs off"
mircea_popescu: well... nothing ? once they turn them back on they can mine again.
kakobrekla doesnt have great hopes for this upcoming blockchain size war.
Apocalyptic: jurov, good point
jurov: and how it comes financially? suddenly the garzikcoin stop being excnaged for stuff cuz mircea said so?
jurov: *exchanged
mircea_popescu: no, just, mircea's bitcoin in its gavin aspect is being sold. so miners of gavin chain will have to compete with that.
punkman: btw the irc services library used by freenode is EOL'd
punkman: "There will not be another release cycle after Atheme 7.2. We encourage the community to fork Atheme and choose the most suitable forks to drive IRC forward. To this end, we will maintain Atheme 7.2 as a suitable base for forking until October 31, 2015, with all services terminating on October 31, 2016."
mircea_popescu: and merchants accepting it will have to somehow finance the risk, too.
Apocalyptic: kakobrekla, as in you doubt the outcome will be in favour of b-a ?
mircea_popescu: i kinda doubt they actually have the guts to go through with it,
mircea_popescu: but hey.
mircea_popescu: you don't always get the maximal fun out of situations.
assbot: [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dh3OC1 )
mircea_popescu: jurov that 99% figure is mostly a joke. look at the exchanges as they are, think what even a 50k wall would do at say 30 usd per. how exactly are thjose 99% of miners going to finance operations for a week when their block reward is worth ~750 bux ?
mircea_popescu: at best gavin will manage to crush the gavin-bitcoin to whatever it was in 2012 and that's that.
mircea_popescu: nobody's pouring out peta hashes for free for weeks on end.
jurov: you mean you will dump 50k gavins?
mircea_popescu: i will dump all my bitcoin, on the gavin fork.
kakobrekla: you know why we have miners?
artifexd: asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: show teh us how dumping's actually done. what, dja have any idea how long i pined for an opportuniy to play the easy side of this game ?
kakobrekla: cause they cant do math.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yeah, right.
artifexd: asciilifeform: I was typing up that exact same idea
mircea_popescu: not what i've been hearing from teh chinese folks on the topic, but w/e, gavin's more than welcome to persevere in his usg-is-the-world delusions.
kakobrekla: they will in fact mine with ev-
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla for how long ?
asciilifeform: the miners in the sealed mine will mine on body fat for as long as they can.
mircea_popescu: 1mn a day. how long ?
akisora: Thanks. I was wondering how things worked here since gribble is offline
akisora: I can't auth on gribble. Not that I have any ratings
mircea_popescu: they work... barely.
kakobrekla: ill just say my guess is better than sexygingers.
mircea_popescu: well sure.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, this "they'll mine at -ev" is from the days of gpus.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, miner farms are actually pretty stretched as it is, financially.
assbot: [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dh5lIy )
kakobrekla: dude, vps is like a dollar a month.
kakobrekla: (for the purpose of bouncer)
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: there are folks about (some even in #b-a) who have a habit of using something other than an actual computer for their daily work (i won't point fingers)
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: they will succumb to the temptation of running the entire demon, and not merely a proxy, on the 'bouncer.'
kakobrekla: i thought nobody even has an actual computer.
asciilifeform: doctor will say to patient 'if it hurts, stop doing it'
asciilifeform: but the entire problem is entirely avoidable
asciilifeform: minimal standard of computer for purpose of this thread
asciilifeform: box that will compile and run an unpretentious posix demon without major handholding
kakobrekla: context always fucks everything up.
mircea_popescu: no kako, it's u! not context!
mircea_popescu: jurov this discussion entirely elides the more important point of "why in the fuck would miners even consider a proposal that inflates their main ware".
mircea_popescu: the block rewards keeps going down. how are they going to make money if there's no pressure on txn to pay ? is gavin going to give them it ?
Apocalyptic: this falls to kako's argument "they can't do math"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7950 @ 0.00064331 = 5.1143 BTC [+]
jurov: we don't know who the damn miners actually are anymore
mircea_popescu: Apocalyptic kako's argument needs a "and the govt will print money and give it to them. forever" companion.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, it's as good as the argument that "my horse doesn't need to eat"
mircea_popescu: jurov "we". i kinda do.
jurov: i see. so you are certain these entities are mostly motivated by profit.
Apocalyptic: "rational entities" will be sufficient imo
mircea_popescu: even the statal actors have a limited budget.
mircea_popescu: this war exceeds that.
asciilifeform: the only way enemy could win this hypothetical engagement is if he can set his fork up to 'catabolically break down' the original bitcoin network ( mircea_popescu's army on the board )
asciilifeform: say, by engineering a continuous double-spend attempt into normal operation of 'usgcoin' miners
asciilifeform: (double-spend on the 'actual' net, naturally)
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller the lulzy part in there is "clearly the thing that's not needed but we kept repeating that it is, is in fact needed. because...uh..."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what'd that do ?
akisora: did Gavin just say there are special rules for coinbase??
akisora: In the article linked in the reddit thestringpuller posted Gavin said "2. There are special rules for 'coinbase' transactions: there can be only one coinbase transaction per block, it must be the first transaction, etc."
akisora: What the fuck is that? lol
akisora: I don't understand what is going on with that
Apocalyptic: akisora, coinbase transactions, not "Coinbase" the company
mircea_popescu: akisora this was always the case.
akisora: oh okay :)
mircea_popescu: the "coinbase" tx is the tx that pays the miners for the block mined, that 25 btc
thestringpuller: my iq is dropping
thestringpuller: i need to stop reading this
thestringpuller: but it's like watching a really bad movie
thestringpuller: you cna't look away
[]bot: Bet placed: 2 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under 200$ before Feb" http://bitbet.us/bet/1095/ Odds: 17(Y):83(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.03161579 BTC. Current weight: 88,975.
thestringpuller: !up hanbot
hanbot: thx thestringpuller
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what'd that do ? << if your estimate in 'this was exceeds that [necessary budget]' is correct - it will do nothing.
mircea_popescu: perhaps.
mircea_popescu: the us has a lengthy history of getting involved in wars it can't afford
hanbot: BingoBoingo http://pastebin.com/npDQM1iT (re xoom piece)
assbot: Despite Xoom's vague assertion that "it doesn't think that customer data or cust - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1yxYKHX )
mircea_popescu: and the us muppets are currently shivering to death in a "democratic" ukraine that CLEARLY had to have its block sizes increased.
mircea_popescu: so... you never know.
mircea_popescu: i always hope on the side of getting to do some raping. and pillaging.
mircea_popescu: ohai hanbot :D
asciilifeform: 'here's a lesson all must learn: first you pillage, then you burn'
hanbot: hallo!
mircea_popescu: lol@ piece.
mircea_popescu: totally should contrib moar to qntra.
asciilifeform: 'going the way of linux' << depressing
mircea_popescu: depression : just another public service i offer.
asciilifeform: 'wagner: free; cyanide - extra five pfennigs'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14962 @ 0.00064907 = 9.7114 BTC [+]
assbot: [FAQ] Lyrics for The Birthday Dirge ... ( http://bit.ly/1yy0yAJ )
mircea_popescu: Burn the castle, storm the keep, kill the women, save the sheep.
asciilifeform: 'May your deeds with sword and axe / Equal those with sheep and yaks.'
asciilifeform: ty mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: did a series of small asteroids just hit fleanode or what.
asciilifeform: the node i was plugged into - is dead now.
asciilifeform: (incidentally, at least every other fleanode host has broken 'sasl' auth. learn which ones, if your client has 'auto-connect' to #b-a)
mircea_popescu: "Saudi Arabia shipped 54 percent of its crude oil exports to Asia in 2013, with another 17 percent to the United States, according to Saudi Aramco's annual report. It shipped just 5.4 percent to Europe and 6.7 percent to the Mediterranean. In total, crude exports ran at 6.8 million bpd."
mircea_popescu: "petrodollar" indeed lol
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sasl is dysfunctional anyway.
asciilifeform: well yes. but it is 'duct tape' for the cloak thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6738 @ 0.00063478 = 4.2771 BTC [-]
asciilifeform makes small 'public service announcement' that, with gribble dead, any one of us present company could be hitler.
asciilifeform: or rather, at any time could have been hitler, but previously the fuhrer would have been required to put in a little sweat and pwn fleanode wholesale, whereas now he just needs to break nickserv
asciilifeform: or just slip in a few packets
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31400 @ 0.00065281 = 20.4982 BTC [+] {5}
asciilifeform: 'PARASTOO IS INFORMING THAT "CPLD AND FPGA BITSTREAMS" RUNNING THE SECURITY MODULES IN BOTH GROUND STATIONS AND MANY OF THE HOVERING ACTUAL SATELLITES THAT ARE LINKED TO SOME TARGETED NOCs ARE FULLY DECRYPTED ..AND WE FOUND -- WHILE DOING SATANIC LAUGHS -- SOME OF THESE UGLY CODES ARE NOT EVEN COMPATIBLE WITH BASIC NIST'S FIPS SECURITY GRADE GIVEN TO THESE PRODUCTS WITH $+APPLAUSE .'
asciilifeform: ^ good 'dissociated press' (shannonizer) output? or actual human speaking ?
BingoBoingo: !up muh_buttcoins
BingoBoingo: Hallo muh_buttcoins
asciilifeform: any scholars of farsi lang. here ? is above a plausible eng. mistranslation? and if so, of what.
muh_buttcoins: is speculating on the price discouraged here
BingoBoingo: muh_buttcoins: Not entirely
muh_buttcoins: what % of your net wealth do you think is a good amount to invest in bitcoin
BingoBoingo: muh_buttcoins: It depends. What % of your net wealth do you presently depend on for provisioning a roof and some food?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30250 @ 0.00064556 = 19.5282 BTC [-] {3}
muh_buttcoins: maybe 3-5%
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how would someone know if sometyhing's a mistranslation absernt source matrerial ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: occasionally there are idiomatic residual clues
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can't expect hard proof of anything whatsoever, sure.
asciilifeform: what, for instance, is 'doing satanic laughs ?'
BingoBoingo: Ah, in that case prolly no more than 97-95 percent so you don't starve or go homeless. Prolly keep the number lower than that though. Diversify get apartments in different cities around the world, ya know.
mircea_popescu: afaik no farsi in gtranslate, so there is that
asciilifeform: the mere emission of a 'muhahahaha' - or some more specific activity peculiar to reverse-engineering purloined fpga bitstreams ?
BingoBoingo: hanbot: Is that a comment or a article submission?
mircea_popescu: prolly laughing ass off.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is marked 'persian' there.
assbot: #bitcoin-assets rules and regulations pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/13Yy3yb )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and works, about as well as russian-english (which is to say, very threadbare)
mircea_popescu: esp 2, interesting in your case.
mircea_popescu: so google for انجام می خندد شیطانی then
assbot: [MPEX] [S.QNTR] 7653 @ 0.00015 = 1.148 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: check it out, didn't break log! yay.
asciilifeform blows dust off textbook
muh_buttcoins: Do you guys think the Bitstamp owners stole the coins and made up the hacked story?
asciilifeform: muh_buttcoins: if you were to meet with proof that it was so, or was not so, would the coins thereby unsteal themselves ?
asciilifeform: muh_buttcoins: i'm genuinely curious as to why you would like to learn the answer to that question
muh_buttcoins: Just seeking opinions on it
asciilifeform: how could you ever hope to learn it?
mircea_popescu: blockchain technologies ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, go read the log, come back in half year or thereabouts.
asciilifeform: one time, isaac asimov (iirc ?) got tired of idiots badgering him with questions re: subjects in which he could not possibly give informed answer, and some of these even retorted with 'please just give me your gut feeling!' to which he answered that he does not think with his gut, and the questioner is welcome to keep the company of those who do - elsewhere.
kakobrekla: try harder next time.
mircea_popescu: it almost looks liek nippals
kakobrekla: bout 600 ips worth.
asciilifeform: 600?! why so threadbare.
kakobrekla: idk, twas a http flood , wp prolly
kakobrekla: i dont care enough to check the logs.
asciilifeform: there's an interesting similarity in the reactions of the freenode folks (quoted in earlier thread) and that of the wp fool (quoted in recent article on mircea_popescu's site)
asciilifeform: (reaction to learning of ddos)
kakobrekla: prolly same dude that is pestering trilema/qntra these days.
kakobrekla: only bb is up tho :p
asciilifeform: well yes, but the reactions of the 'nah it isn't our fault, and by the way have you tried plugging it in? and it ain't a bug, but a feature, at any rate'
mircea_popescu: i don't expect "the freenode folks" have technically very much at their disposal. this is the thing, frozen since the days lilo walked the earth.
mircea_popescu: they can sort-of push the levers, they can send over diddled code to whatever "specialists" never to be heard from again,
mircea_popescu: but on the whole... kinda mcdonald-ish, willy nilly.
asciilifeform: there's also the interesting fact (i shall offer no attempt at proof here) that a significant chunk of fleanode traffic is botnet c&c
asciilifeform: 'mcdonalds' is 'democratic' not only for leprous bomzhes, but for rats, mice, roaches.
mircea_popescu: that part nobody can actually do much against.
mircea_popescu: it's akin to saying that there's child porn in the blockchain. yes, of course there is.
asciilifeform: wouldn't suggest that it is their duty to play exterminator
mircea_popescu: what there isn't is "forbidden types of content"
asciilifeform: but when there are more mice than human eater in the restaurant, mass-wise, it reflects poorly.
mircea_popescu: well... humans are expensive.
artifexd: mircea_popescu: Do you envision the ircd project have the end goal of replacing the freenode #b-a channel or is it only supposed to be a way for one individual to communicate with another individual?
asciilifeform: artifexd: answer not obvious from the article ?
mircea_popescu: artifexd it's supposed to replace ircd as a secure, fast and reliable means to communicate directly with others.
mircea_popescu: arguably ircd isn't really any of these, but going by intent rather than practice.
asciilifeform also points out that, as written, apparatus is also meant to replace the classical 'wot'
mircea_popescu: obviously, will have to.
asciilifeform: or at least offer a parachute of it.
mircea_popescu: i thought about it for a while, but fundamentally, wot has a lot of trouble existing independent of the forum.
mircea_popescu: such as, in medieval times punishment lists were put out in the marketplace.
asciilifeform: as late as 18th c. actually.
asciilifeform: as well as the actual punishments.
mircea_popescu: http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2006/Jun/843 << old lilo drama, if anyone's unsatisfied by the piles of bitcoin drama we have fresh on tap.
assbot: Full Disclosure: The truth about Rob Levin aka Lilo ofirc.freenode.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3aRdz )
asciilifeform has been enjoying 'Seeing Justice Done. The Age of Spectacular Capital Punishment in France.' (Paul Friedland.)
mircea_popescu: (possibly the first in the trend of white trash "do-ologists", something that's apparently coming en vogue what with all the couch surfing entrepreneurs)
asciilifeform: i vaguely recall reading his obituary ?
mircea_popescu: yeah died at some point last decade
mircea_popescu: reading the comments, this new ircd thing is actually fucking exciting.
kakobrekla: yeah you basically invented ethereum or something
kakobrekla: >As you well observe, this thing is in fact Bitcoin without the shared public ledger (kept instead as a virtual private ledger by each node).
kakobrekla: very blockchain 2.0
mircea_popescu: on a lark i connect to efnet. first server simpyl fails to connect. 2nd dumps this http://pastebin.com/epe6WQBC
assbot: * - Breaking one or more of the following policies will get you * - /Kill'ed an - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3c2d0 )
assbot: [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3c30w )
artifexd: !s erasure coding
assbot: 5 results for 'erasure coding' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=erasure+coding
asciilifeform: artifexd: there are several known ways of doing a 'fountain code' (term of art) - where a bitstring, B, is transformed into a number, N, of shorter bitstrings, whereby X of N can be collected, in any order, and with certain quantity of errors permissible, to reconstitute B.
asciilifeform: X*N is naturally larger than B. by how much - depends on particular algorithm chosen.
asciilifeform: the most classic, 'naive' algo for this, known to nearly everyone under one name or another, is reed-solomon.
asciilifeform: but very high overhead.
mircea_popescu: right, this is an excessive approach
asciilifeform: this is one of the very few mathematical/computation subfields where there was real progress in the past twenty years.
artifexd: I fear that the more complicated the math, the more likely I am to screw it up.
asciilifeform: something like 'raptor' algorithm gives overhead of, iirc, 3-5%.
asciilifeform: artifexd: a good compromise, probably, would be the Luby transform.
asciilifeform: it can be implemented without unusual effort or mathematical education.
artifexd: Is "can be transmitted via carrier pigeon" really a priority for this project?
asciilifeform: not as such, imho
asciilifeform: but there is no particular reason to glue it to ip on protocol level
mircea_popescu: ideally we keep away from any really dumb ideas that'd prevent moving away from the current situation
mircea_popescu: but otherwisew this is supposed to work today.
asciilifeform: if you can get packet P from your box to other end, using paper letter, but not the net - should be able to do so
artifexd: TCP does offer advantages. Not having to reinvent/reimplement transmission reliability/ordering is not a minor thing.
asciilifeform: not having to worry about syn floods, etc. plus frustrating most existing traffic analysis widgetry - udp, if done correctly, is a serious win
asciilifeform: the connection-tracking apparatus of tcp is really half the force behind the sting of 'ddos'
artifexd: syn floods are a solved problem
mircea_popescu: it requires someone to do it correctly.
asciilifeform: undergrad-level problem
mircea_popescu: artifexd that all depends. relativelysolved lol
artifexd: Boxes that sit in front of the server that establishes connections and only passes on the connected ones can be bought of the shelf, right?
mircea_popescu: everything can be bought of the shelf neh ?
asciilifeform: incidentally, here's a small idea. instead of transmitting snapshots of global state (of 'channel'), have each packet be a reconciliation of one particular pubkey's history. that way there is no need to reassemble gigantic blob.
artifexd: As far as traffic analysis goes, as long as all of the transmissions are opaque noise (because they are encrypted) and are of constant size, analysis is impossible.
asciilifeform: artifexd: it is also necessary that they have no temporal correlation to anything.
artifexd: Right. But "once a second" is in the first draft of the rfc.
asciilifeform: artifexd: this requires a fixed, steady flow of bits between the two points.
artifexd: Yes.
mircea_popescu: artifexd more's the point, i don't specifically give a shit about "analysis"
mircea_popescu: let the derps analyze it until they fall over. this retreat of person to "anonymity" is exactly the wrong strategic moves.
mircea_popescu: if the state controls the field of identity it doesn't need much more.
mircea_popescu: no, i shan't live by any entities' permission. the state will live by my permission, or go down in a hail of bullets and flame thrower exhaust.
asciilifeform: not suggesting that 'anonymity' warrants complicating design, but if it can be dropped by the gods from the sky at no cost, no reason not to pick up.
mircea_popescu: sure, that much.
mircea_popescu: on a more practical angle, you will note that the various entities relying on "secrecy" are in jail, from the pirate robets to the shrem dude. even "thanking the judge for a justice well done".
mircea_popescu: should be obvious that model does not work. it doesn't, specifically because it caters to the idiocy it proposes very flimsily to be "against".
asciilifeform: 'prison is like the grave, room can be found for everyone' (ru proverb)
artifexd: Fountain codes, insomuch as I don't understand them, complicate the design. Padding the the structure that gets encrypted doesn't.
artifexd: It is also possible that my own ignorance is complicating the design.
mircea_popescu: artifexd nothing prevents the thing to be further upgraded later on.
artifexd: true story
asciilifeform: artifexd: you don't strictly speaking need fountain code in first version of this apparatus.
mircea_popescu: for that matter, we have a much shittier version currently,
mircea_popescu: and it's worked nothing short of splendidly for many years.
mircea_popescu: improvements don't have to be absolute solutions to be useful. they just have to be absolute improvements.
asciilifeform: artifexd: i was trying to suggest another way whereby no packet needs to exceed udp's mtu in size, or be guaranteed to reach its destination in the first try
artifexd: 576 bytes ain't a lot of space.
asciilifeform: artifexd: this would be - to reconcile history per-pubkey, rather than global.
asciilifeform: 576 can hold a 2048-bit (ephemeral rsa key!) sig, a reasonably long key fp, and small payload.
mircea_popescu: another advantage to tcp is that you don't really get to care about mtus and all that.
asciilifeform: also appreciate a fine point:
mircea_popescu: it is in my eyes much more valuable to have a working prototype rapidly, that then can be extended (and nothing will prevent a future client to filter traffic any way itchooses, say by accepting udp only)
asciilifeform: with udp, a box running said protocol cannot be distinguished by enemy from one which is not
asciilifeform: if he is not physically sitting on the wire
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so ?
asciilifeform: if uninteresting, disregard.
mircea_popescu: if done right, a reasonable expectation will be that any box is running it anyway.
artifexd: Or just put it on port 80
asciilifeform: i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy
mircea_popescu: that's a bit rich.
asciilifeform: who likes things to be countable
asciilifeform: and 'quantifiable'
asciilifeform: 'threat assessment111!!!11'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do not code for your enemy lol.
mircea_popescu: we're doing this for ourselves.
asciilifeform: when we make bullet - we make for enemy
asciilifeform: not usually for self
mircea_popescu: this is a tractor not a bullet.
asciilifeform: tractor with 'maxim.'
mircea_popescu: if the owner wieshes, sure.
asciilifeform: i wouldn't bother arguing the udp/tcp point were it not for the fact that this is not a decision that can be easily re-visited.
asciilifeform: for instance, if you immediately go with 4096-bit ephemeral keys, you're already at 512b. for sig alone.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
mircea_popescu: but there can be a later protocol extension covering udp
mircea_popescu: and it will get more eyeballs reading code on the strength of the already existing thing.
asciilifeform: it'll be a bit of a procrustean bed
mircea_popescu: fwiw i wouldn't use sub 4kb keys anyway.
asciilifeform: me neither
mircea_popescu: so then.
asciilifeform: but that was merely one example.
asciilifeform: (perfectly legit) question was 'wtf should we give a damn about udp mtu, it's a bore'
asciilifeform: answer is, for the same reason that, after a certain date, rifle calibers were X inch sixteenth lines and not some random contemporary fellow's little finger.
asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
asciilifeform: can silently drop it if 'foe.'
asciilifeform: without allocating memory.
asciilifeform: if it is not obvious why this is tremendously valuable, try to think about it for a few minutes.
asciilifeform will not waste the gentlemens' time by belabouring the point further
mircea_popescu: dude, it will be 5 years before anyone even figures out there's something to attack.
asciilifeform: actually i envision a department hastily assembled, of folks much like myself but underemployed, set to work on it.
mircea_popescu: in 2016.
mircea_popescu: and they'll fail.
asciilifeform: not even usg as such, needed for this. the crapware folks will readily latch on to anything like a solution to what ails them - which proposed apparatus is; and the antivirus folks will immediately proceed to piss out whatever fluids they can muster, against the problem
asciilifeform: if correctly built, apparatus will remain standing. but the notion that no one will see it fit to pour excrement upon the head of the early incarnation - is a mistake.
mircea_popescu: i'd bet you but we can't use bitbet because it doesn't take gavin btc.
artifexd: I'm burning up a lot (ok, more than a few) credits on http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/
assbot: [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqRN9J )
mircea_popescu: artifexd now you are on to my secret plan
asciilifeform: artifexd: iirc comments on trilema don't require credits
artifexd: refreshing the page to see new comments does.
asciilifeform confesses that he has never purchased a credit on mircea_popescu's site...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18116 @ 0.00063644 = 11.5297 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: artifexd use one more then, i answer't.
assbot: While forcing me to pay taxes /USEmbassyBbdos tyrants won't allow me to attend /hashtag/CES2015?src=hash, /hashtag/TNABC?src=hash or anything in the US http://t.co/8dl6qpPjUM
assbot: The Bitstamp booth at CES today. http://t.co/BaqOaml8UL http://t.co/DrgdEVyoZg
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: s/relied/relayed ?
artifexd: Oh! That shifts my interpretation somewhat.
mircea_popescu: is this ver's way of saying he can't afford anything bitcoin-related anymore, not even that thing in miami ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aye ty
mircea_popescu: artifexd i guess in retrospect the use of "for" was misguided. chetty warned me, too.
mircea_popescu: but it's for as in, "i am doing in the name of x, ie, for x"
artifexd: So the "Hi there" part could include destination information in addition to the message. Much like irc does now.
asciilifeform: i'd suggest term 'of', and use mathematical notation subkey(ofkey)
artifexd: XFF?
asciilifeform: artifexd: imho the 'hello' should stick to bare minimum - establishing the right of the interlocutor to speak to what is on the other end.
asciilifeform: if successful (he signed nonce with an ephemeral key for which the machine being spoken to possesses a valid primary wot-key signature, or is in fact transmitting a new ephemeral pubkey signed by such a wotkey) - this creates a session.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Seems so. Or it means He's basically Shrem'd except exile instead of jail.
asciilifeform: artifexd: i will not belabour the point, i think you will arrive at the correct answers on your own. they will fall into place in your head.
mircea_popescu: qui facit per alium facit per se sort of "for"
asciilifeform: this is one of those problems where it is almost unavoidable.
mircea_popescu: artifexd yes, it could, of course.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00063644 = 1.4002 BTC [-]
assbot: The Tale of the Privacy Pink Panther - HackerOne ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqSX52 )
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how do you plan to cook up a transaction dumping your coins that's valid on the gavinchain but not the mirceachain?
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: There are ways...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23800 @ 0.00063644 = 15.1473 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: specifics, though, BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: First step is to double spend such that confirmed coins from address A end up confirmed to a safe depth at different addresses B and C on the different forked chains.
BingoBoingo: B and C both still being addresses under your control
BingoBoingo: From there... party time.
Apocalyptic: that makes sense
BingoBoingo: Getting the coins differently spent safely to different addresses on each chain is the important part.
assbot: [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqTDHH )
assbot: Which bank will have the foresight to give /krakenfx a USD bank account? /Chase /WellsFargo /BofA_News /usbank /Citibank /HSBC_US /hashtag/bitcoin?src=hash
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes if one block's large and the other small, all i need a tx that's included in the large block but not the small one. then doublespend it on the small one, which will be rejected necessarily by the large block blockchain
mircea_popescu: now i have bitcoin separated in two addresses, one for each chain.
mircea_popescu: the attempt may fail, but the cost to me of this failure is not significant, so i can keep on trying until it succeeds.
mircea_popescu: the only way to guard against it is, obviously,for the "large" chain to maintain 1:1 identity with the "small" one. because you don't just fork bitcoin.,
Apocalyptic: !up hanbot
ben_vulpes: i still fail to see how you're going to make a txn that gets included in the large block chain and not the small block chain.
hanbot: tyvm
ben_vulpes: anyways! i must off to tango lessons.
hanbot: BingoBoingo oh, i just thought i'd give the paragraph mp described a shot
mircea_popescu: (if it were that simple, teh enemies wouldn't be going through all the gymnastics & eating up all the frogs)
artifexd: ben_vulpes: You don't. You keep sending money to yourself until it happens.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes what do you mean ? it necessarily will occur.
mircea_popescu: since one contains more txn than the other by definition.
mircea_popescu: suppose i make 50k 1btc txn. they don't fit in a 1mn block. they do fit in a 10mb block. what now ?
BingoBoingo: hanbot: Well, the first bullet on the subject missed and you politely loaded the chamber with a second so why not?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: the 'turn on your laptop to prove it isn't filled exclusively with trotyl' thing is rather tiresome. esp. since nothing keeps a miscreant from replacing only, e.g., half of the cells in his battery with plastique of similar shape and density.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: but even the public 'state of the art' was an israeli phone, successfully delivered to intended decapitee, which functioned as intended for a few minutes and then detonated on command.
ben_vulpes: i've not the mental horsepower to attack this right now. after tango tho.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it presumably looked 'correct' on xray.
mircea_popescu: artifexd i wonder if for some god-forsaken reason the shitgnomes never actually considered this obviousness.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Really for the purpose of passing airport security one could likely replace all but the volume of one cell with substance, power on from coin cells.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33088 @ 0.00063644 = 21.0585 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo soon enough there's going to be a "no half empty batteries" rule then.
mircea_popescu: i'd lobby for that if i were a battery maker.
asciilifeform: no batteries, period.
asciilifeform: must rent in flight, if using, and re-purchase on other end.
asciilifeform: this will happen shortly prior to the 'naked anaesthetized flights'
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well i imagine sufficiently resourceful turrorist would make a normal looking to X-Ray evil battery pack
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: sop. israeli phone, etc
asciilifeform: this entire subject remaining a subject even in light of (reasonably well-known) fact of extant airplanes being remotely pwnable - is perplexing.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Right. Prolly won't be long before ISIS seizes a medical xray and does some experimenting to catch up tp 5Is on this front
asciilifeform: 'pwnable' isn't even the right word
asciilifeform: they're approximately what ssl is.
asciilifeform: pre-masterkeyed. this was quietly ushered into being shortly post '9/11' and mostly forgotten about in public.
assbot: [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqUqIr )
kakobrekla: 502 Bad Gateway
artifexd: O noes!
artifexd: You broke it
Apocalyptic: the page is too successful
artifexd: Anybody have a good name for this project? ircd isn't going to cut it.
mike_c: why? let the other ircd change it's name.
asciilifeform: mike_c: terrible thing to do.
mike_c: just teasing the bitcoin foundation :D
asciilifeform: mike_c: phoundation - deserved the treatment; old warhorse irc - doesn't
BingoBoingo: ArseD?
asciilifeform: artifexd: if you're up for it, we can continue the thread here while trilema is down
artifexd: Sure
artifexd: What'd you say?
asciilifeform: artifexd: the mechanism for doing what ought to be done has a generic name: 'gossip protocol'
asciilifeform: that is, you utter a certain thing, or rather, sequence of things, and wish for said fact to become 'universal knowledge' at some point
asciilifeform: and it is accomplished by people talking to one another: 'have you heard xxxxx?' 'nope, do tell.' or 'sure, heard all about it.'
asciilifeform: bitcoin implements one variant of this.
asciilifeform: i will argue that you will want to, in general, 'hash-chain' all of your public (type 'a' in my last visible comment) messages.
mircea_popescu: it's down ?!
asciilifeform: hash-chain or some variation on that theme is the only way an operator can be certain of possessing an unbroken chain of what a particular key has uttered.
artifexd: Now you're talking about a lot of back and forth instead of the bundle approach.
artifexd: I could see the value in that if maintaining an unbroken history was important.
asciilifeform: if you take the bundle approach, you are suddenly faced with a multitude of very arbitrary decisions re: what ought to be included in bundle.
asciilifeform: thing is, you need a hard-reliable mechanism regardless of what you do, if only on account of having the WoT in this thing.
asciilifeform: so it may as well apply to everything.
asciilifeform: there is no reason to bring 'net splits' into existence again.
Apocalyptic: so is qntra for me
mircea_popescu: well i just responded...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your site is down as seen from my perch
artifexd: If you do the gossip thing then each server needs to maintain a history (of possibly infinite length)
asciilifeform: like bitcoin.
assbot: Down For Everyone Or Just Me -> Check if your website is down or up? ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqVgFd )
mircea_popescu: meanwhile...
artifexd: And now we have a blockchain growth problem.
asciilifeform: how is it a problem ?
mircea_popescu: srsly, no blockchain.
asciilifeform: no blockchain. just chain.
mircea_popescu: the messages should be kept around for a short interval (hour ?) while the user can retain them as long as he wants.
mircea_popescu: but basically the bundle should cover the last hour.
asciilifeform: if no chain: malicious node can selectively drop messages.
Apocalyptic: mircea, I get a timeout for both trilema and qntra, looks like we may have been banned, which is surprising because I didn't refresh the page too quickly
asciilifeform: notice you don't have to store the chain permanently
asciilifeform: just rolling window.
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: same here
artifexd: An hour? Shit. I was thinking 5 seconds.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so ?
artifexd: If a bundle is sent every second.
mircea_popescu: artifexd ah that's a point. my 1hour was outer limit.
asciilifeform: a window of 5 seconds will give quite a few dropped messages.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8200 @ 0.00063644 = 5.2188 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: this is likely actually.
asciilifeform: why not allow a node to store as much history as he wishes to expend on disk
mircea_popescu: because not its job.
artifexd: Why? If you're connected when a message comes across the wire, you get it. If not, you don't. Much like irc now.
asciilifeform: and synchronize based on histories of individual pubkeys
mircea_popescu: because it's chat. if someone wants to log it, that's a diff story.
asciilifeform: the distinction between 'log' and 'allow very high-latency chat' is very thin.
asciilifeform: if i'm on a satellite modem, i doubt that one in ten messages of 5-second window will make it through to my node.
artifexd: Sure it would. If you have a connection to another server, it will send you all the messages it gets. Although I imagine some manner of "screw you, you're too slow" code will be needed eventually.
asciilifeform: this apparatus of yours is not merely ircd with new coat of paint. it is a very different animal mathematically, as you lot will soon realize.
mircea_popescu: it's okay for slow nodes to lose messages
mircea_popescu: this is what the definition of "Slow" is.
mircea_popescu: if i were to connect to irc with a 360 baud modem i would similarily lose messages.
artifexd: asciilifeform: What you want sounds very similar to bitmessage, no?
asciilifeform: perhaps root of disagreement is that i originally contemplated something more along the lines of a very fast usenet, rather than potentially slow chat.
asciilifeform: 'store and forward'
artifexd: usenet is pretty damn fast.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's not really a log-with-chat.
mircea_popescu: it's a chat.,
asciilifeform: the 300 baud modem loses no usenet messages.
mircea_popescu: yes, because they're not signed nor crypted.
asciilifeform: even when they are.
artifexd: The storage requirements for a usenet server are stupid high.
asciilifeform: except in degenerate case, where modem and owner both crumble to dust before the transmission can finish
asciilifeform: through the ravages of time
mircea_popescu: a 360 baud modem loses 99% of usenet messages out of a pipe which puts out 36kbps worth of messages continuously.
asciilifeform: well yes.
mircea_popescu: how you slice the 99% is uninteresting.
asciilifeform: now answer under what circumstances one can accept a loss of even one packet of WoT computation.
artifexd: Side question: How do you quote a previous comment on trilema?
mircea_popescu: <blockquote>
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's in the hello message.
asciilifeform: hence atomic operation, aha
mircea_popescu: each server sends its own view, you compile what interests you.
asciilifeform: inescapably one will end up seeing slightly different WoTs, at least on their peripheries, at different times.
asciilifeform: i doubt that this can be avoided entirely
mircea_popescu: necessarioly.
mircea_popescu: thjere is no such thing as "one" wot.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00063432 = 5.7089 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: for that matter, a "total score" is nonsense predicated on this mistaken view.
mircea_popescu: there is no center wot.
asciilifeform: only if it, as it does presently, lives in just one specially-designated temple
mircea_popescu: which is kind-of why the "total score" nonsense is so hard entrenched.
mircea_popescu: the current implementation favours what is fundamewntally an erroneous view of thew wot as "one thing". it is not one thing.
asciilifeform: i've been wishing that folks would let go of it for quite some time.
asciilifeform: !s kyristor
assbot: 14 results for 'kyristor' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=kyristor
mircea_popescu: as assbot's usage over timne has shown
asciilifeform: before i learned of the wot that we now use.
asciilifeform: (*even before)
asciilifeform: the notion of 'trustworthiness' as a scalar is fundamental to scamatrons of all stripes.
asciilifeform: it isn't a scalar.
assbot: Logged on 12-11-2014 01:24:54; asciilifeform: ^ my ancient failed attempt at 'wot.' was to be used with another (never happened) apparatus, 'sollipse,' for running a 'multiverse' of wots.
assbot: PEGIDA marches: Xenophobia is going mainstream in Germany. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kk0Df0 )
artifexd: Piss... trilema is 502ing again
artifexd: Which I can only assume means it ate my comment.
assbot: Russian hedge fund founder disappears with all the firm's money. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kk0GYd )
mircea_popescu: artifexd umm... i see it but not your comment.
mircea_popescu: is this some routing mishmashing or something ?
asciilifeform also cannot connect now
asciilifeform probably caught in spam/ddos trap
mircea_popescu: a there it is.
mircea_popescu: it... didn't eat your comment lol
artifexd: It did.
artifexd: I refreshed the post page. :)
mircea_popescu: answer't.
mircea_popescu: lettuce continue this convo while asciilifeform feels all left out :D
Apocalyptic: how long are the bans typically scheduled for ?
mircea_popescu: depends, from an hour up
artifexd: Ok. The layers are forming in my head.
BingoBoingo: !up ddddddd
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'gossipd' << see 'gossip protocols', very interesting subfield in maths.
asciilifeform: highly recommended to anyone who took part in or enjoyed reading this thread.
mircea_popescu: anyway, THAT is why not signed messages.
mircea_popescu: perfect deniability, much better than forward secrecy
asciilifeform: still need signed hellos
mircea_popescu: since by very definition gestapo can't trust A B C
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sure, but not the same thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: complicates your design a bit, as now you have two classes of message
asciilifeform: instead of one
mircea_popescu: how so ?
asciilifeform: (wot operations still need to be signed, as well as 'hello' session negotiations.)
mircea_popescu: each server maintains his wot ratings, and theyt are sent out as part of hello procedure
mircea_popescu: each server compiles wot list for use of its user from helos received
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00063295 = 10.507 BTC [-]
asciilifeform marches off to thinking room to properly think about this.
asciilifeform: and to pet neglected pet
artifexd: Wait. Wut?
mircea_popescu: which part.
artifexd: You specifically don't want messages signed?
artifexd: For deniability?
mircea_popescu: there's no signing in there, is there ?
artifexd: There is not. I took that as an oversight.
assbot: Logged on 05-01-2015 17:59:47; davout: i was thinking rely on GPG and simply encode a nonce in the message
mircea_popescu: no, it's not an oversight.
artifexd: When a message A for B C comes over the wire, how can I trust that B actually said C?
artifexd: Maybe A is trustworthy but got the message from D.
mircea_popescu: his job to police his lists.
artifexd: And D is full of shit.
artifexd: What stops server A from inventing messages by B?
mircea_popescu: don't trust people you don't trust and so you won't have to answer unpleasant questions from people whose trust you value.
mircea_popescu: nothing.
mircea_popescu: in fact, for all you know A sends whole different novels to B and C.
artifexd: That seems... less than ideal.
artifexd: Because we are building a new system from the ground up.
BingoBoingo: Is anyone (mike_c?) interested in doing a recap of 2014 in Bitcoin finance?
mircea_popescu: good idea that bb.
artifexd: Everyone is already identified by crypto. Why not ensure that messages that say they are from a keyset actually came from the keyset?
mircea_popescu: because it's chat.
mircea_popescu: do you ordinarily sign contracts with people you chat with in the bus ?
artifexd: Kinda
mircea_popescu: well, i don't. i more often have sex with someone in the bus
mircea_popescu: than sign a contract there.
kakobrekla: dont chat with strangers.
artifexd: If by "sign" you mean "have some effing clue who just said that"
mircea_popescu: for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ?
mircea_popescu: i can use it later.
mircea_popescu: artifexd you have a clue : either your friend, or someone who only exists
mircea_popescu: in the sense your friend sayus he does.
mircea_popescu: this "objective existence of user" is a trap in our task here. it doesn' tserve, it hinders.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ? << This is the big.
artifexd: It would be a timestamped "No".
mircea_popescu: moreover, i wish to take this opportunity and link the important point of the "unsheathe your sword". inasmuch as people proceed on the "user objectively exists" and then try to "create anonimity" the unavoidable result is "anonimity is hard lolz".
mircea_popescu: the only entity served by this nonsense is nsa. users don't actually exist, outside of what the parties you trust say.
mircea_popescu: artifexd so if it is.
artifexd: When you and I have a conversation on here (and gribble is around, and you ident to a key), then later you and I have another conversation (and, again, gribble is around and you ident to the same key), then I can trust that I am talking to the same person I was before.
artifexd: Signing messages would provide that same assurance. But automatically.
mircea_popescu: and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd.
artifexd: Wanna be somebody else, grab a new key.
mircea_popescu: without a requirement to sign.
mircea_popescu: however, if you only know asciilifeform and he;'s relying my chat,
mircea_popescu: for all practical purposes i am his 3rd split personality, a figment of his rich imagination.
artifexd: Exactly
mircea_popescu: this is ideal.
asciilifeform: let's see if i misunderstood something.
asciilifeform: in mircea_popescu's scheme, my wot-graph exists as a bitstring that my particular node will disgorge if asked?
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the evolution of this dev session clearly proves the superiority of chat over say bbs, of which forums and trilema comments are implementations.
asciilifeform: rather than permanent blockchain-style world record
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, disgorge on handshake but yea
asciilifeform: well then:
asciilifeform: let's imagine the good ship Mircea, a four-reactored former soviet nuke sub;
asciilifeform: a martian death ray takes out a satellite. the ship is now within five day's steam of the next chance for net connection
mircea_popescu: lol. the actual ship mircea is an old barque. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_(ship)
assbot: Mircea (ship) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJOI85 )
asciilifeform: during these five days, how many sc4mz0rs will find themselves temporarily rehabilitated ?
asciilifeform: barque << haha yes, knew this
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you still have an old list.
asciilifeform: worse yet, if the boat were to perish in honourable combat, with all hands aboard, the global state of wot shall return to as if he and the crew had never lived ?
asciilifeform: aye i have an old list. but that's quite ad-hoc.
mircea_popescu: which ius no different from the current situation
asciilifeform: and i can't sign it with a fresh mircea-nonce.
asciilifeform: because i am me and not him
mircea_popescu: if i die tomorrow who will maintain my wot ?
mircea_popescu: uhhh... nobody.
asciilifeform: but it stays around as a statue, for so long as nanotube remains ungassed
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, but you can sign it with yours, if you wish. which correctly reflects the situation. "here are the words of great X i attest to"
asciilifeform: which in this one respect is an arguable improvement over the hypothetical apparatus
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha!
mircea_popescu: i do not see it.
mircea_popescu: how do you know it's not been diddled ?
asciilifeform: that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain!
mircea_popescu: you'd have to ask an elder or two anyway.
asciilifeform: to borrow a greenspunish,
asciilifeform: *greenspunism
asciilifeform: 'those who will not' xxx 'are doomed to' yyy 'it'
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as my old wot is still signed with my old key, and you have a copy
mircea_popescu: it's as good as current thing, except better cuz signed.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and then we get medieval-style rediscoveries of 'the latter gospel of mircea'
asciilifeform: why not cut straight to chase.
mircea_popescu: very theoretical possibility, as "the last words" are hard to fake online.
asciilifeform: not so much a concern re: fakes, but losses.
mircea_popescu: for all you know some validly signed material from 2012 satoshi emerges tomorrow. tis what it is.
mircea_popescu: for all you know it can even came in the shape of regular bitcoin txn.
asciilifeform: and say my sub, a considerably poorer vessel, only has connection when on equator. say, one day in 60, in sight of particular satellite.
mircea_popescu: will be honored once known. ignored meanwhiule.
asciilifeform: under the contemplated scheme, i may as well not bother to use wot then
asciilifeform: or would have to station it shore-side somehow
mircea_popescu: well, if you can only net once in 2 months you can only net once in 2 months.
mircea_popescu: some of your stuff will be out of date.
asciilifeform: we again arrive at a system of ad-hoc, bug-ridden relays and informal mirrors
mircea_popescu: i still dun see it.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, relays are strength not weakness here.
asciilifeform: when part of mechanism, by spec and by reliable practice sans hand-holding
asciilifeform: think of the advantage bitcoin has over hawala.
asciilifeform: hawala is more or less the same, but implemented in the informal, mouth-to-ear way contemplated above.
asciilifeform: ('the same' topologically! not mechanically, clearly)
mircea_popescu: what's adequate for moving currency is not adequate for moving words.
asciilifeform: wot, i'd say, falls somewhere between (or floating far in the state-space) from currency or mere words
mircea_popescu: i still can't possibly see what flaw you perceive with the wot part of gossipd
artifexd: So what is the value of this vice a private stock ircd with a gribble?
asciilifeform: the fact that my wot actions disappear when my node loses net
asciilifeform: i think it is ludicrous.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they don't dood. how do they disappear ?
asciilifeform: disappear until i get plugged back in
mircea_popescu: artifexd thgat it has no central servers, for one.
asciilifeform: which perhaps never, because atomic bomb fell on me.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyone who saw the old ones has a copy!
mircea_popescu: this is just like it is now! everything!
asciilifeform: and what can they do with this copy?
asciilifeform: consult it while forming own wot ratings, informally?
mircea_popescu: anything ? they're signed by you. they're, until anyone hears better, your position.
asciilifeform: by what mechanism are they kept around in the world ?
asciilifeform: someone manually copied it to a text file at some point ?
mircea_popescu: by the same mechanism anything of anyone's kept around in the world : your friends have copies.
mircea_popescu: an' shall remember you.
mircea_popescu: chat is not an instrument to permanence. it's an instrument to chat.
mircea_popescu: permanence is to be ensured by other means
asciilifeform: chat - sure
mircea_popescu: (this doesn't replace notarybot, for instance)
asciilifeform: if wot ratings were archived - it could.
mircea_popescu: anyone can archive them!
mircea_popescu: yourself included.
asciilifeform: can != will reliably
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00063127 = 11.1735 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: i don't think you will find the computerized means to ensure immutability.
asciilifeform: let's ask - how many folks reading this have archived, e.g., the works of fermat ?
mircea_popescu: but for as long as anyone gives a shit, they'll be there.
asciilifeform: dead tree counts
asciilifeform: probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho.
asciilifeform: a copy of my wotgraph kept around as a message in a bottle under nitrogen in my brother's house, say, will not really carry out its function as a live reflection of my wot-will.
asciilifeform: in real time.
mircea_popescu: because why not ?
asciilifeform: because it is in a bottle.
mircea_popescu: things change,you know. mayhap people you used to trust are nopw scammers
mircea_popescu: present wot would benefit immensely from some dead hand cleanning as it is.
asciilifeform: this is actually an ancient debate in the maths-of-p2p-nets world
mircea_popescu: i really do not wish to hear how much some long gone loser trusts whatever long gone scammer.
asciilifeform: whether father time should forget
asciilifeform: and if so, how.
mircea_popescu: exactly like indicated. will exists for as long as the hand lives to enforce it
mircea_popescu: once that's gone... main morte.
mircea_popescu: leave the earth to better, later men.
asciilifeform: there are obvious wins to this approach. but opens the question of what, e.g., my brother, is to do with my wotgraph once my ship goes down.
mircea_popescu: whatever he wants.
mircea_popescu: we knowthis because he is here. you, are not.
asciilifeform: assuming he wishes it to march on
asciilifeform: is he to host it on an 'obelisk' node which does nothing else but relay it ?
mircea_popescu: could, easily.
asciilifeform: or adjust his own graph-weights? (that would somewhat defeat the purpose of a wot, loses information)
mircea_popescu: also could, also easily.
mircea_popescu: what information was lost ?
mircea_popescu: the wot reflects wqhat things ARE. not what they were.
mircea_popescu: that's why if right now i change a rating, the old one's gone.
asciilifeform: where the change propagates.
asciilifeform: right now this seems far easier than it will turn out to be on adult apparatus.
asciilifeform: the 'dynamicity' of new-wot (vs classical wot) creates some very strong incentives for hooligans of all stripes
asciilifeform: to attempt to disrupt signal, locate mirrors
mircea_popescu: i still don't see there's a difference.
asciilifeform: to create temporary warps in the fabric of wot.
mircea_popescu: are you sure those aren't simply the resuilts of "no more central server" ?
asciilifeform: well, in a sense they are; but we're really surrendering to entropy here far more than, imho, is necessary
mircea_popescu: entropy is to be embraced. it's no surender when you manage to flow with it.
asciilifeform: i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary
mircea_popescu: the less you figh entropy while still doing your job, the longer you'll live.
asciilifeform: because things that are tedious and must be done manually, tend to not get done.
mircea_popescu: so anyone's free to implement all the caching one wants.
asciilifeform: let's say that a fair number of node operators wish to cache. now they are stuck retaining (and transmitting, regularly!) a vast number of duplicate copies of many wotgraphs
mircea_popescu: they can cache whichever way they wish/
asciilifeform: not so many ways to choose from if result is to behave functionally live
asciilifeform: (i.e., just as their own live wotgraph behaves)
asciilifeform: in the end, you end up with a poor reimplementation of 'blockchain' anyway
mircea_popescu: yes stan, if you wish to have a blockchain you will end up having to implement one.
asciilifeform: i will let this point prove itself, but was willing to argue for it to possibly save mircea_popescu and artifexd some unnecessary sweat
artifexd: I still haven't processed the wot part of the spec. I'm still trying to understand why you wouldn't sign the messages. It seems to be asking for evil actors.
asciilifeform: http://pastebin.com/w5VYjyBu << possibly very relevant
assbot: THE PETRIFIED WORLD (Robert Sheckley) - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1BxiUBn )
asciilifeform: (1971 story)
artifexd: Other than the argument that a signed "no" could be used for something malicious. Uh... It just means that you said no. It doesn't imply what you said no in response to. Just that you said no.
asciilifeform: this is why i suggested chaining.
asciilifeform: prevents a future forged conversation stitched out of words you have uttered.
asciilifeform: (of signed gibblets, anyway)
artifexd: millisecond timestamps and a counter would do that too.
mircea_popescu: artifexd explain why you WOULD sign them.
asciilifeform: artifexd: next thing you know we're doing lamport clocks.
artifexd: Actually, as fast as I type single second resolution timestamps would be enough.
mircea_popescu: and yes, unixtime timestamps.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11344 @ 0.00062984 = 7.1449 BTC [-]
artifexd: Why would I sign messages? Why would I appreciate messages that I receive to be signed?
mircea_popescu: why would you require chat lines be signed.
mircea_popescu: i mean, i understand, "it's how it's done". we're here because the current paradigm is - quite fundamentally - broken.
artifexd: Simple: I would sign all my messages so that if you told me that I said something that wasn't signed, I could legitimately call bullshit.
mircea_popescu: you can call bullshit in the gossipd as well.
mircea_popescu: that's provided.
asciilifeform: let's put it this way - if i wish for my words to successfully relay beyond my own node, i have to sign them with an ephemeral key
mircea_popescu: if you wish to elevate some chat to a contract, you directly can do that too.
mircea_popescu: by signign it.
asciilifeform: how is anything originating in my machine to leave my node without being signed ?
artifexd: I would appreciate signed messages so that I could have some moderate assurance that bob is actually bob and not some asshole evil server.
mircea_popescu: artifexd you have SOME assurance.
mircea_popescu: if you know bob, this is cryptographic.
mircea_popescu: if you do not know bob, that assurance is meaningless anyway.
asciilifeform: ^ not entirely
artifexd: I would have to have a direct connection to bob in order to believe anything with his fingerprint.
asciilifeform: you can still know that bob(today) is (or is not) same as bob(next month)
mircea_popescu: which is EXACTLY as it is anyway
asciilifeform: not necessarily same person, but same key (e.g., is same bourbaki)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform herp.
mircea_popescu: so you can still know... nothing much.
asciilifeform: arguing that this can be useful information
artifexd: Part of the trust is that you can handle a key.
asciilifeform: in some truly perverse cases
mircea_popescu: anything can be useful information.
mircea_popescu: artifexd if you don't know bob, for all you know he's lying to you.
mircea_popescu: with or without a key. there is no mechanical solution to trust
mircea_popescu: just like there are no mechanically generated random numbers.
asciilifeform did not imagine that there were.
mircea_popescu: i am aware the inept consensus today is to think that technology can solve trust.
artifexd: Trust doesn't mean that I take bob's word as gospel.
mircea_popescu: the reason this is even specced is to provide some sanity while everyone wastes their life in that ai quest.
asciilifeform: 'trust' is probably a word that will have to be retired, like phlogiston.
artifexd: Trust in this case means that, as asciilifeform said, bob(today) is bob(next month)
asciilifeform: trust is simply an obsolete, pre-scientific word.
artifexd: I mean as in trust the message
asciilifeform: please don't put it on life support, it needs to die
mircea_popescu: artifexd hardly if that.
mircea_popescu: for all you know bob is part of a 500 key ring operated by 5k monkeys.
artifexd: signed messages allow someone to build an identity
mircea_popescu: sure, they do.
mircea_popescu: but more's the point : signed messages allow the world to build an adversative identity of someone.
mircea_popescu: this is pointedly against the purpose of chat.
artifexd: As you have preached in the past, the identity built over time, secured by wot, has value.
artifexd: Take away the ability to build an identity and what's left?
mircea_popescu: it does, and that's exactly what;s happening, in the proper model. people chat. on that chat they build contracts. their contract history is fixed in a wot.
mircea_popescu: there's a great progression at work there.
artifexd: The key in the wot has no relation AT ALL to the message I just received with a fingerprint.
mircea_popescu: such ability is not taken away.
artifexd: Could be him. Could not. Who knows.
mircea_popescu: it does, if the sender is in your list.
mircea_popescu: it does not, if he is not.
mircea_popescu: in the case at hand, i'd know you are you, but i wouldn't know dddddd is anyone in particular.
mircea_popescu: this is correct.
mircea_popescu: because in point of fact ddddd is noone in particular.
mircea_popescu: they even say this, the various random guys the wind blows in. "who are you ?" "nobody in particular".
thestringpuller: !s gribble
assbot: 15680 results for 'gribble' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gribble
artifexd: How do you imagine bootstrapping this thing?
artifexd: Do we get in here, ident, and pass around ip addresses?
artifexd: Is that the start?
mircea_popescu: pretty much
mircea_popescu: you know, just like "up me please" but not centrally maintained.
mircea_popescu: just ask your friends.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: what would the result of someone forking the WoT be?
mircea_popescu: a wot fork ?
thestringpuller: altgribble becomes hitler and makes his own db clones from nanotubes
thestringpuller: some "people" start using it
thestringpuller: but nanotube never comes back
mircea_popescu: what's wrong with using an alt wot ?
thestringpuller: or comes back months later (super worst case)
thestringpuller: that's my question
mircea_popescu: if you trust whoever maintains it... go ahead.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi who even runs altgribble. who is it ?
thestringpuller: well altgribble was generatlized example
artifexd: After the thing is up and running for 6 months. How does some insightful dude off the street get in? Look for a public (and thus completely untrusted) access ircd that will let him connect and hope to build an identity to the point that you say "hey insightful_dude_from_the_street", what's your ip address? I'll let you connect to me because you say useful
artifexd: shit"?
thestringpuller: mexican_gribble etc
mircea_popescu: artifexd either that, or otherwise getting into a relationship with one of the people in
mircea_popescu: how does one get into l1 atm ?
mircea_popescu: how did lampelina come in ? kako added her to his node and said "hey, lampelina is this hot blondy I met in a bar."
mircea_popescu: if she starts doing evil shit like forwarding messages from obama, it'll look like obama: hey dudes, i smoke the c0k! to us,
artifexd: You have to beg for a chance to demonstrate the ability to be interesting before you get a chance to get judged.
mircea_popescu: but it'll look like obama[via lampelina] to kako. who can then go gtfo wtf you smokin beich ?!
mircea_popescu: artifexd you gotta get an up before you can voice. eh ?
kakobrekla: actually snatched from irc not a bar and our gfs make bad examples for this.
artifexd: Yeah.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla sorry
artifexd: Fuck. What are we discussing.... Oh yeah. Why automatically adding any type of verification to a message is bad.
thestringpuller: hanbot: nice qntra submission
mircea_popescu: we were discussing why it is good, and it turns out it isn't particularly, and so parsimony dictates it stays out.
kakobrekla: no sorry needed, its just that i dont put my penis into everyone that i would like to irc with.
artifexd: Preventing some douche from Bumfuck, Idaho from impersonating your hard built identity "isn't particularly good"?
mircea_popescu: artifexd this prevention is guaranteed by design as is.
mircea_popescu: he can only impersonate you to folk that don't know you.
artifexd: He can only impersonate me to people who don't have an absolutely direct connection to me.
mircea_popescu: or care to get one or know how.
mircea_popescu: technically, anyone can make a gpg key and name it Mircea Popescu
mircea_popescu: so what if it's the wrong numbers ?
artifexd: That's why the fingerprint and the alias, right? Let the computer notice that the numbers don't match the the numbers that I identify as mircea.
mircea_popescu: for that matter, if we keep the A B C D ; X Y Z K convention, then A can impersonate K to Y only provided B isn't linked to C that is linked to D.
mircea_popescu: artifexd the computer wouldn't know.
mircea_popescu: if i get a fake key of you and sign it... it's good as far as the computer is concerned.
artifexd: Huh? Of course it would.
mircea_popescu: computer only finds through a direct connection.
artifexd: I have a fingerprint. Or a public key. I give that fingerprint or key a name. Anything not that key or fingerprint won't match to the name.
mircea_popescu: according to whom ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lives in a submarine and never connects to you or your friends. i give him my own version of the "Artifex" key. he signs it.
artifexd: What does that have to do with anything>?
mircea_popescu: everything ?
mircea_popescu: it's exactly the scenario you're proposing.
artifexd: Nothing I, as artifexd with my key, say will ever show up as said by the same entity as whatever you say with your artifex key.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you know on reflection i'm the other way around ? i wouldn't irc with anyone i put my penis into
mircea_popescu: artifexd that's entirely up to me.
kakobrekla: yeah but you are just weird like that.
mircea_popescu: s/anyone/everyone
artifexd: Sure. If you have two keys in your wot and you want to give them both the same name. Knock yourself out.
artifexd: But *you* have to make the choice to be confusing.
asciilifeform: here's an observation:
artifexd: The system would, without your interference, label the things I say and the things your artifex say as said by seperate entities.
asciilifeform: i am not presently authenticated via 'gribble'
mircea_popescu: artifexd dubious at best.
asciilifeform: how many of the folks present are ready to believe that this 'asciilifeform' is the same animal they are accustomed to enduring the company of in #b-a ?
asciilifeform: and why?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can tell, you sound just like him.
asciilifeform: well sure.
asciilifeform: but this is an 'informal bug-ridden implementation' of message signing.
mircea_popescu: what, you just bathed in the same bath twice ?
asciilifeform: when i grunt on the impalement pole, i will probably not be able to deny these words either, to the inquisitor, for the same reason
asciilifeform: 'you sound just like him!'
artifexd: dubious? huh? how? the maths are the maths.
asciilifeform: hence the 'adverse identity' thing
asciilifeform: even if we have no sigs
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think you misrepresent the importance of this. currently, I can tell. *I*. Because i'm me, specifically. if you signed, so could preet.
mircea_popescu: you do not wish to make preet any gifts.
asciilifeform: sigs are pure win, for a creature like myself, just about everything that comes out of my mouth is 'signed' enough for inquisitor!
asciilifeform: why not sign for friends?
mircea_popescu: which is why this is an ircd fork rather than whatever, just apt-get it.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as "sign for friends" outside of the model detailed in my spec.
mircea_popescu: that's what that is. "signed, but for friends only"
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asciilifeform: the only possible solution to preet signing as asciilifeform, or mircea_popescu, or whoever, is to pull the pin when he comes uninvited.
mircea_popescu: consider a bunch of chatlogs from gossipd presented in court.
mircea_popescu: "and then you said so and so" "um how you know this ?" "from node C" "well it lied to you"
mircea_popescu: "no it didn't!!1" "case dismissed" "but yur honor!!1"
asciilifeform: imho it is far from a sure thing that this will so much as add one drop of sweat to a usg inquisitor's work
artifexd: Your argument is that you WANT deniability?
mircea_popescu: artifexd my argument is that deniability must be baked in or not had.
mircea_popescu: and for chat it must be had. and so... it must be baked in.
artifexd: Hmmm.... this is not the project that I thought it was.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is another way to bake it in.
BingoBoingo: Even preet loses cases
mircea_popescu: artifexd it isn't ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider: a subclass of private message where you ask a friend to pass along, to the 'room', some words.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha ?
asciilifeform: explicitly proclaimed as 'not his own'
asciilifeform: the ears - can choose to believe, or not, naturally
asciilifeform: but this is inescapable
mircea_popescu: i don't follow.
asciilifeform: say mircea_popescu wishes to deniably utter the words 'brezhnev sucks'. he then asks me to utter, 'my friend, who wishes to stay unmarked, wishes to inform the ladies and gentlemen of this network that brezhnev sucks'
asciilifeform: we thus have a degree of deniability, about the same as in the case of no messages carrying signatures
mircea_popescu: artifexd suppose you don't reg your name, and someone comes in as artifexd and says things. should you be forced somehow to say if this is the case or not ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not wish to stay unmarked.
asciilifeform: (contrieved example)
mircea_popescu: and i don't want "a degree" of deniability.
asciilifeform: as i reckon, same degree as the unsigned-message scenario
mircea_popescu: i want exactly what chat is : absolute deniability to the entire world, save your friends.
mircea_popescu: which is exactly how speech has functioned, since the dawn of time, to create what is known as the free world.
asciilifeform: 'absolutes' are tricky.
mircea_popescu: high time computers conform.
mircea_popescu: not with the spec as given, imo.
asciilifeform: let's work out, using spec as given in mircea_popescu's article: what does an inquisitor know about a particular utterance
asciilifeform: if he were to put a node in his pocket
asciilifeform: or a series of nodes
asciilifeform: to how many possible pubkeys (and presumably, but not automagically, people) can he narrow down the 'brezhnev sucks' ?
asciilifeform: (typically)
mircea_popescu: i dun see how that'd be answered.
mircea_popescu: but i also have little interest in fighting the narrowing down. that's not really a good use of time.
asciilifeform: that's what 'deniability' means, unless i catastrophically misunderstand the concept
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35000 @ 0.00062617 = 21.916 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: well, not how i understand it at any rate.
mircea_popescu: deniability is "you X" "no."
asciilifeform is transported to grade school mentally
mircea_popescu: as far as it's in the form "either you or A X" the only answer is "i don't care."
asciilifeform: teacher: 'it was one of you boys'
mircea_popescu: "get something substantial and bother me again"
artifexd: How many connections to other servers do you imagine that you will have? You as in you mircea_popescu.
artifexd: 10? 60? 2000?
asciilifeform gets a distinct impression that mircea_popescu is still thinking of the adversary as being bound by laws, courts, procedures of evidence-gathering.
mircea_popescu: artifexd anywhere between a few dozen and a few thousands.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am not thinking of an adversary. i am designing things correctly.
asciilifeform rather thinks that this is a military matter, where adversary can afford to ransack and search 100 houses but not 100,000, and hence his gathering bits of info - matters
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's a subplot i dun wanna enter into now - this is complex enough as it is - but suffice to say i am persuaded such situations are thermodynamiocally bound to narrow timespaces.
asciilifeform would much like to hear more about this later
mircea_popescu: ie, the police state only exists now and again, when the state of technology is poor enough.
asciilifeform: naggum had a piece where he confessed to thinking of 'open source' as a weapon, purpose-built for the destruction of a particular evil (microshit)
asciilifeform: that will have to be re-shaped into something quite else (his words) when enemy is dead
mircea_popescu: artifexd a 1mbps connection, which is reasonably common in households, should be able to support maybe a few hundred connections.
mircea_popescu: then again, the number of people people know is, from memory 1-200.
mircea_popescu: admitting everyone's awake at the same time.
asciilifeform still can't escape the feeling that hypothetical apparatus is a weapon, at least for the time being, that must be sharp enough to penetrate a particular tough grizzly hide if it is to carry on to being whatever it was meant to be...
mircea_popescu: and admitting everyone known is known to the same, high degree to warrant a connection.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's merely meant to put chat on a sane footing.
mircea_popescu: since we're fixing ircd, might as well actually do it.
asciilifeform: at the very least, one ought to have the option of (unobtrusively!) signing every line
asciilifeform: i am quite ready to ephemeralkey-sign every line i have uttered in #b-a.
mircea_popescu: i don;'t see what in the spec would prevent anyone from so doing.
asciilifeform: in no small part because i cannot really picture my impalement or reprieve as hinging on attribution of what i've said
artifexd: I would think that instead of a list of ip addresses you would have a list of pubkeys and each pubkey has one (or more) ip addresses assigned to it. When you start up gossipd, it calls out to all the ip addresses in the lists and says "I'm bob, proven by this signature. Prove you are alice, with cryptoproof". If the answering box responds appropriately,
artifexd: cool. Keep the connection. If not, dump it.
asciilifeform: why is it necessary to involve ip addresses ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gotta route packets somehow.
mircea_popescu: artifexd this could also work, as a handshakey sort of thing, sure.
artifexd: As a currently running gossipd, if I get a connection request with "I'm bob. Here's proof", then I accept the connection and add that ip address to my list for that key. (For later connecting to him)
asciilifeform: let's say i communicate over courier.
asciilifeform: what is my 'ip address' then ?
mircea_popescu: spec was simpler on the assumption that since the helo package is keyed to the supposed key of the server, there's no need to challenge
mircea_popescu: if hje can decrypt it's him alright.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19498 @ 0.00061581 = 12.0071 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it touches the network somewhere.
artifexd: Sure. Then the handshake doesn't go both ways, but the information shared is the same. I know you have the key you say you have. You know I have the key I say I have.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when i sign my 'hello' i will have no idea where it will enter the network.
artifexd: I add the ip address to the key so when I start up, I have a place (or places) to look for you.
asciilifeform: it is quite impossible to sign your ip address if you communicate via courier who may stop at one of sixteen ports.
artifexd: asciilifeform: You have to have some way of receiving return messages, right?
asciilifeform: not necessarily
asciilifeform: it could be my final message as boat goes down.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then put it in a pastebin
asciilifeform: sent - in bottle.
mircea_popescu: and someone will link it.
asciilifeform: out of band?
asciilifeform: why is this necessary?
mircea_popescu: cause you're tryin to shoehorn nonchat uses of a chat network.
mircea_popescu: so you're going to have to carry the shoe horn yourself.
asciilifeform: by way of a considerably simpler design
asciilifeform: (unitary hello+signature packet)
artifexd: Sure. I have no issue with that.
mircea_popescu: the helo as it is contains some signed material.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10500 @ 0.00064399 = 6.7619 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: what would you sign ?
asciilifeform will, likely, happily play with whatever apparatus you folks come up with, but wishes that the choice be an informed one on the part of the implementers, rather than happenstance.
mircea_popescu: o look, 1k lines by 4 am. ben_vulpes will so much love this.
artifexd: Sign whatever you want. As long as the timestamp is recent.
mircea_popescu: artifexd so how is it different from the project you thouight it was ?
asciilifeform: artifexd: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-01-2015#967274 << basic summary of the thing i was mainly on about.
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
artifexd: I wasn't imagining so many direct connections.
mircea_popescu: artifexd well, dunbar's number as a general rule.
artifexd: I had imagined few connections, more routing.
mircea_popescu: should fit on consumer box.
mircea_popescu: if anyone runs a mega node, his hardware is his problem
artifexd: I had imagined #b-a but where everyone is ident'd all the time. No impersonating anyone else is remotely possible.
mircea_popescu: this would fit, if you cared to make it fit
mircea_popescu: currently therte's 140 people here.
asciilifeform also formed this impression.
mircea_popescu: so... yes.
artifexd: I start up my little process, it makes a connection to one or eight other people and it just works through the magic of maths.
mircea_popescu: nah. too easy to attack that graph.
asciilifeform: who among those present, other than mircea_popescu, wishes to be impersonateable (deniable) by default ?
artifexd: Not I
asciilifeform: not 'democratizing', just probing waters
mircea_popescu: what's the big deal ?
mircea_popescu: i am impersonated all the time, on all sorts of venues.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and you like it ?
mircea_popescu: i have enough experience with it to know it does \exactly nothing.
asciilifeform: i, for one, would much prefer to have there be not the slightest chance that a fuckwit claiming to speak as me, but sans my key, can be believed
artifexd: I think you're accused of being other people more often than you are impersonated.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform believed is one thing.
mircea_popescu: artifexd this is possible lol. but also a large number.
artifexd: asciilifeform: That is my desire as well
mircea_popescu: it won't be believed (meaningfully).
asciilifeform: will be believed by sufficiently many otherwise-clueful folks
mircea_popescu: what people who have no clue believe resting squarely outside not of your control, but THIS WORLD.
asciilifeform: because signatures are so rare.
mircea_popescu: perhaps this is what irks, such a clear statement of that inconvenient (but nevertheless true) fact
asciilifeform: if signatures were expected, impersonation would be strictly a preet-stole-key-and-i-didnt-pull-pin-in-time matter.
mircea_popescu: like in the case of rg ?
artifexd: What is "preet"?
mircea_popescu: this is an illusion.
asciilifeform: artifexd: an infamous judge where i live
asciilifeform: artifexd: 'kangaroo court'
asciilifeform: artifexd: he specializes in high-profile show trials. quite like roland freisler (top judge in 3rd reich)
mircea_popescu: artifexd the roland freisler of our times, preet bharara. crown's prosecutor for southern ny / rico conspiracy lynchpin.
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