Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2014-05-10 | 2014-06-01 → ↓
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19150 @ 0.0008848 = 16.9439 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: and the smart card is inspectable?
mike_c: ping pankkake
benkay: kinda what i'm impling, kakobrekla
pankkake: mike_c: all is good now
mike_c: well, wanted to let you know i updated it a bit. if you look for an ad for a bet that I haven't picked up yet it goes and gets it in real time
pankkake: oh, great
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.219 = 0.657 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.23816262 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 133 @ 0.02701232 = 3.5926 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16150 @ 0.00088422 = 14.2802 BTC [-]
assbot: Price Lists
decimation: Not cheap, I cannot vouch for the quality
decimation: found them googling around. There are also transformers sold for the yacht market, but I'm sure they are more expensive
decimation: I wanted to buy a 1:2 transformer to step-up my 120 volt generator to 240 volt for heavy appliances
decimation: I found a few but it was clearly not a mainstream product. What would be nice is to combine an isolation transformer with two secondary windings so you can choose your output voltage
decimation: it seems to me that the 120 volt standard in the US is extremely wasteful of valuable copper. The US should switch to the global 220/240 v standard.
decimation: This bridgeport magnetics group also sells isolation transformers designed for use in streetlights: http://www.bridgeportmagnetics.com/streetlight.html - available on a street near you :)
assbot: Streetlight Isolation Transformers
assbot: Sail-World.com : Why You Should Add an Isolation Transformer to your Boat
decimation: Although there were 'No Swimming' signs that warned of the danger of electrocution, it was common practice for patrons to swim at the marina. ... Samantha tried to climb on a raft with Margaret when she suddenly started jerking in the water. ... Another boater dove in to save Samantha. He was shocked too and barely escaped with his life. Sadly, Samantha died.
decimation: pro tip: when someone is jerking randomly in the water below a "no swimming - danger of electrocution" sign, don't jump in to rescue
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 69 @ 0.21216524 = 14.6394 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20350 @ 0.00088344 = 17.978 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.08838 = 0.1768 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7500 @ 0.00088061 = 6.6046 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27350 @ 0.00088043 = 24.0798 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00200302 = 0.2003 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10418 @ 0.00088097 = 9.1779 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 635.12, Best ask: 636.8, Bid-ask spread: 1.68000, Last trade: 636.8, 24 hour volume: 9707.94045991, 24 hour low: 611.0, 24 hour high: 636.95, 24 hour vwap: 623.512321046
mircea_popescu: !jd mpif
assbot: Current MPIF account balance on Just-Dice: 166.97404975 BTC; +0.01831254 BTC (+0.0110%) since last check 3h 49m 52s ago.
mircea_popescu: Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user kakobrekla: Level 1: 5, Level 2: 46 via 27 connections.<< epic
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19050 @ 0.00088148 = 16.7922 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: re: dumbcards:
assbot: #bitcoin-assets log
asciilifeform: (love the log, spares my keyboard years of life)
mircea_popescu: definitely.
mircea_popescu: jurov: someday people with perfect hearing will end up wearing hearing aids with noise suppression << i'll wear assault rifles with noise supression before i do tha.t
asciilifeform: don't knock antiphase headphone till you've tried it. great in airplanes, machine rooms.
joecool: asciilifeform: meh, isolation > antiphase
asciilifeform: there's a reason everybody doesn't simply wear rifle range headphones on the plane
asciilifeform: you get sweaty
joecool: ah i use IEM's, they fit in pocket
asciilifeform: i still have mine from uni
asciilifeform: scratch that - iem appears to be actual headphone. thought you meant plugs, as used by construction crews
joecool: no, i mean balanced armatures
asciilifeform: decimation: those transformers are 'golden toilet' priced - no surprise, given the 'medical' label
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43698 @ 0.00088063 = 38.4818 BTC [-] {2}
joecool: asciilifeform: i wasn't talking about hw bitcoin wallet implementations, i was talking about openpgp smartcard implementations
asciilifeform: joecool: same problems
asciilifeform: joecool: 1) pc knows that dedicated crypto hardware is connected. compromised pc can then mitm the user.
asciilifeform: joecool: 2) vlsi - thus non-inspectable - rng and cryptographic functionality.
decimation: re: antiphase headphones - they give me a weird headache if I use them too long. Also I find that they have rolloff at the lower frequencies
asciilifeform: decimation: same. this is because they inevitably emit an audible hiss of their own.
decimation: I found really great NASCAR earphones that have 30 dB attenuation down to low frequencies - I look like a tool on the airplane
joecool: rolloff at lower freq is usually due to running inefficient low impedance headphones off a bad source
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 73 @ 0.00199663 = 0.1458 BTC [-]
joecool: can be solved with an amp, i didn't believe sensitive IEM's would be affected till i had a pair with a picky crossover
joecool: switched to an amp and they sounded like a very different pair
decimation: To be fair I haven't purchased the fancy "pilot quality" headphones made by bose etc.
asciilifeform: bose is a terrific scam (what spends so much on glossy magazine ads, and isn't ?)
joecool: i'm a big fan of westone's products, i switched to them from shure awhile back
decimation: old school pilots use passive david clark headphones
decimation: I also wonder if the antiphase headphones are modulating my eardrums at frequencies beyond my perception
joecool: asciilifeform: i don't generate keys on card for the rng issue, need to upload from laptop, but yeah sure no way to enter pin outside the laptop
joecool: so collecting keystrokes could give pin
joecool: the only assurance you have is a signature counter in the smartcard
asciilifeform: joecool: not only this, but laptop 'knows' that a crypto gizmo is connected.
asciilifeform: fails the 'would you plug this in at dr. evil's house?' test.
joecool: asciilifeform: pretty sure in the case of the smartcard it needs to initialize the card to know that it is, all it sees is a reader otherwise
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [ALC] 18 @ 0.11593333 = 2.0868 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [ALC] 12 @ 0.11 = 1.32 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: if you plug dumbcard into a pwned box, it will sign whatever the enemy wants to sign.
joecool: asciilifeform: not without a pin
asciilifeform: the very next time victim enters pin.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.077101 = 0.1542 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: orthogonal to this is the other problem, that you (owner) have no way of verifying what it is the gizmo is capable of
asciilifeform: (e.g. the hardcoded master key that inevitably turns up in audits of various crapware)
asciilifeform: joecool: i don't generate keys on card << still has rng, for signature nonces.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.07500202 = 0.225 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: You can just put the user 4-digit pin into a key derivation algorithm :)
asciilifeform: am i the only one here who remembers how rsa sig algo works !?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.075001 = 0.3 BTC [-]
joecool: asciilifeform: probably, I honestly never looked at that, will go read now
asciilifeform: decimation: LFSRs suck. and virtually every academic treatise on rng design assumes a very impoverished physical entropy source.
asciilifeform: why? ask the builders, not me
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 307 @ 0.07217058 = 22.1564 BTC [-] {18}
decimation: well, to be fair I think the application is to generate noise for comms. simulation purposes, not crypto
asciilifeform: even for simulation purposes (actually the original source of my interest in rng design, years ago) lfsr is crap. you get creeping periodicities.
mircea_popescu: benkay, "it's all hazy probability fields at this point" << so start before you fly over, get a nice scorpio, maybe it turns out a girl with big green eyes etc.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.07013204 = 0.7013 BTC [-] {4}
decimation: it's a good point. Part of the problem is that actual calibrated analog noise sources are expensive
asciilifeform: your simulated annealing turd won't converge, you'll sit & curse the gods
decimation: but but ascii they said it's good to 8 sigma!
decimation: K-S tests etc
asciilifeform: decimation: lol.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 9 @ 0.07000011 = 0.63 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: chairforce1: im really good at losing money << such skillz.
decimation: Last I called, NIST wanted $5-10k for "labor costs" to measure the phase noise of a microwave oscillator
decimation: was going to be 4 hours work max
mircea_popescu: oscialltors are iffy tho
asciilifeform: decimation: rng design that involves the purchase of an active volcano is probably expensive too.
asciilifeform: 'doctor it hurts when i do that. -- don't do that.'
decimation: I feel better about a device when it has a calibration seal
asciilifeform: if it's a crypto gizmo and has seal - which i didn't put there - i've no interest in it.
mircea_popescu: seals are scam in crypto
joecool: mircea_popescu: stickers always make things work better
decimation: this is true, and even the pros know it
mircea_popescu: it's almost like wanting to marry a virgin specifically.
asciilifeform: seals don't even keep poor buggers from fucking with electric meters.
mircea_popescu: joecool, finally someone explained bumper stickers to me.
mircea_popescu: that's why all the old chryslers and whatnot have them
joecool: covers the rust
decimation: if your crypto wasn't designed to defeat someone who knows everything about how it works, then you are not in the crypto business
mircea_popescu: ;;google ne me touche pas
gribble: Ne me touche pas - French - English Translation and Examples: <http://mymemory.translated.net/t/French/English/ne%20me%20touche%20pas>; arrete,arrete,ne me touche pas. - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcnPxgoZLNw>; PATRICIA CARLI 1963 Arrête, arrête, ne me touche pas... - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KI236fMxoY>
asciilifeform: aside from this, even a hypothetically impregnable seal is an attack against the owner (he cannot examine the package either)
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 10032 @ 0.00008209 = 0.8235 BTC [-] {6}
mircea_popescu: chairforce1:
mircea_popescu: so what is to gain from this jerking in this circle as opposed to others?
decimation: ascii does any commercial device you know about meet this criteria?
mircea_popescu: ask not what you gain from us or how did it go
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4053 @ 0.00007939 = 0.3218 BTC [-] {9}
asciilifeform: decimation: if it did, i'da bought it, and wouldn't be trying to build
decimation: heh good point
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 5000 @ 0.0001014 = 0.507 BTC [-] {35}
asciilifeform: decimation: pretty much everyone fucks the goat right off the starting line - by using a vlsi rng
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 20 @ 0.026305 = 0.5261 BTC [-]
decimation: when you think about it, that's pretty silly, considering how easy it would be to use an analog noise source
asciilifeform: decimation: now the cost of auditing device becomes $10mil.
asciilifeform: (electron microscope, ion beam machine, etc.)
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 370 @ 0.00317717 = 1.1756 BTC [-] {11}
decimation: they could use a revese-biased external diode with an A/D or comperator or whatever
asciilifeform: $100k if you know a fellow who owns the above and trust him.
asciilifeform: decimation: there is no arcane secret in building a decent analogue rng.
asciilifeform: undergrad-level project.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.0008816 = 4.7606 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SF1] 1000 @ 0.00025176 = 0.2518 BTC [-] {16}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 4 @ 0.02658 = 0.1063 BTC [-]
decimation: the next problem: they have an auditable RNG, but how do you know they are actually using it?
asciilifeform: decimation: i'll helpfully point out where this line of thought ends: if you can't re-create the device in its entirety from the published docs, it isn't worth using.
asciilifeform: (not that anything which passes this test is automatically worth using)
asciilifeform: just as not all things which aren't poisonous are good to eat for dinner
decimation: you should implement RSA in 74xx series logic
TheNewDeal: is this about the NSA dealio?
asciilifeform: TheNewDeal: it's about the basic question of what it means to trust a machine
TheNewDeal: I thought MPEX's NSA was developing some RNG
TheNewDeal: or perhaps that was just one component?
asciilifeform: TheNewDeal: i built the rng. yes, it is only one of the components.
decimation: ah yes it's related to that
TheNewDeal: I guess "NSA dealio" was a little... nonspecific
asciilifeform: TheNewDeal: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1475 << mp, other friends, and an rng
assbot: Loper OS » Trilema 2014
joecool: i have no idea what my keyboard controller is capable of anymore, so yeah points totally valid
asciilifeform: (small blue rectangle in bottom right hand size of first photo)
TheNewDeal: mp actually helped design that? didn't know he had that know-how
TheNewDeal: Thought I heard him say something about hardware not being his fortay
asciilifeform: mp provided a reason why to do it. and useful tips on related subjects.
decimation: your last comment about discrete logic lead me to research the topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B
assbot: D-17B - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
asciilifeform: my uni's first computer was a d-17b
asciilifeform: afaik they still have it in a closet somewhere.
decimation: the idea of swapping out a card in your CPU is amusing to me
asciilifeform: decimation: until the late '70s, all cpu designs were of this kind
asciilifeform: (not discrete switches, at the end, naturally - rather, 'bit-slice' logic)
TheNewDeal: oh my gosh, just talked to t his electrician the other day that told me he used to do maintenance on card sorters, like IBM's 074. Just thought I'd toss that in on the topic of old hardware
asciilifeform: card sorter - so you don't have to kill the fellow who dropped a deck.
asciilifeform: (with the 'card knife,' which came with the reader.)
TheNewDeal: hahaha
TheNewDeal: I though the card sorter was the actual machine that computed, no>
asciilifeform: nope. just sorted.
TheNewDeal: oh my gosh
assbot: Build your own FPGA - Nick's Blog
TheNewDeal: now I understand why that crazy comp science teacher told me I had it easy
asciilifeform: decimation: the most basic 'jungle fpga' is just your ordinary ROM.
asciilifeform: you can do logic (inefficiently) with a rom.
asciilifeform: (if you can't see how, think for a minute)
decimation: yeah I guess you can just craw through its contents turing-machine style
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19550 @ 0.00088301 = 17.2628 BTC [+] {2}
TheNewDeal: I'm going to go enjoy a smoke and ponder that thought
mircea_popescu: <TheNewDeal> mp actually helped design that? didn't know he had that know-how << i'm really good at piggybacking on people's work.
decimation: Yeah I guess you can wire the address lines for the input to link to the outputs you want to simulate
decimation: implementing a turing machine would just re-invent the cpu model
asciilifeform: TheNewDeal: dark secret: mp studied maths, physics
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell bitcoinpete "He fleeced -assette extraordinaire kakobrekla for 145 BTC" doesn't seem an accurate rendition. iirc usagi sold pirate insurance, which he paid up on.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: pankkake, the "if both your house and your bank burn down you don't care" theory is pure nonsense.
mircea_popescu: coupla years ago a hurricane hit new york with a lot of watter.
mircea_popescu: guess what ? buncha rich folks houses were underwater
mircea_popescu: and so was a major vault hoilding trillions worth of paper.
mircea_popescu: (which, btw, is STILL to this day not fully unwound)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26800 @ 0.00088162 = 23.6274 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: !up bigdude
TheNewDeal: speaking of dark secrets...
TheNewDeal: mircea_popescu I've been trying to find a list of premine / scamcoins that you provided in the past. It was in a wikipedia format. Can't find it in the logs
TheNewDeal: I was inquiring about darkcoin when you brought it up
assbot: Photo Gallery (U.S. National Park Service)
assbot: Patent US3035433 - Lock mechanism - Google Patents
asciilifeform: because now we have the net.
asciilifeform: and eyes.
asciilifeform: apparently, this is a famous lock.
decimation: there was some dumb tv show like pawn stars or something like that where some guy was trying to sell a "missile key" for $30k if I recall
asciilifeform: also found in chicago elevators.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00199999 = 0.2 BTC [-]
TheNewDeal: like a fireman's lock?
asciilifeform: correct
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4421 @ 0.00088304 = 3.9039 BTC [+]
decimation: Because you know the weak link in your undrground missile silo with 10 ton doors is ... the missile launch lock
asciilifeform: the lock, as all locks, 'keeps honest man honest'
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 12 @ 0.026305 = 0.3157 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: missile lock is ceremonial item. in both american and russian procedural manuals, one turn-key is instructed to compel the other by force of arms if he refuses to carry out his half of the ritual.
TheNewDeal: asciilifeform how did you know about chicago elevators? Is that were you reside? I'm working in Chicago for the next week...
asciilifeform: TheNewDeal: nope. just read a little about the lock.
TheNewDeal: shucks
asciilifeform: TheNewDeal: re: elevator locks: a few years ago, a photo of a new york elevator key was posted on the net. people promptly rushed to their cnc lathes...
TheNewDeal: hahaha
assbot: AN/DRC-8 Emergency Rocket Communications System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
decimation: yo dawg, we heard to launch icbms
decimation: I mean "yo dawg, we heard you like to launch ICBMs - so we put an ICBM launch in your ICBM lauches"
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