Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-09-05 | 2022-09-07 →
awt[asciilifeform]: if you can you must
phf[asciilifeform]: signpost, in the alternative, better timeline this is how we visualize WoT
phf[asciilifeform]: << there are some things to keep note of for future battlepest, e.g. they claim to use bittorrent servers, firebase, and ipfs for peer discovery, which imho is pretty clever
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-09-06 10:13:43 shinohai: << Move over pest, they have a WEB APP.
phf[asciilifeform]: also audio/video chatrooms, and binary w/ metadata
phf[asciilifeform]: awt, so i'm getting 5 broadcast messges every ~7s, does that mean that you have 5 peers in your peer database, that are not currently online, so your system is trying to find them? is that what the logic of the system?
phf[asciilifeform]: *address cast
phf[asciilifeform]: awt, so for example if there's a complete pest net of n stations, everyone's online, then 1 station drops out, now the network in aggregate starts transmitting n-1 address cast messages, because everyone is looking for that 1 offline station? 2 station, n-2, etc.
asciilifeform: << clever, but to asciilifeform not clear why needed when you can use any live peer for 'discovery' (i.e. that selfsame addrcast/nat drill thing)
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-09-06 11:37:13 phf[awt]: << there are some things to keep note of for future battlepest, e.g. they claim to use bittorrent servers, firebase, and ipfs for peer discovery, which imho is pretty clever
awt[asciilifeform]: phf: interesting. my log shows them going out every ~60s.
phf[asciilifeform]: awt, disregard, i'm stupid and can't read digital clock
phf[asciilifeform]: you're right, every ~60s, but the other question remains
awt[asciilifeform]: phf: Also, yes, that is the logic. Maybe exponential backoff would be better.
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, true, but also all advertised station ips have been knocked offline by an adversarial ddos, etc.
asciilifeform: phf: the pill is to have sufficient # of peers that is impractical to knock out all (even if somehow opponent knows ~all~ of'em -- a situation that , come to think of it, is only likely to occur precisely if one 'cheats' and uses external toilets for advertising addrs, ipfs etc)
phf[asciilifeform]: there you trying to bring up pest station from a trench over shortwave, the joint NATO/WEF strike force is on your back, you need to send last message to the comrades, the message that will is a culmination of your succesful but final mission. that's when you piggy back off disney/pfizer™© safe citizen id©™ system to
phf[asciilifeform]: do your initial discovery…
asciilifeform: generally folx who aint peers w/ a station have no biz knowing its ip at all
asciilifeform: phf: lol
asciilifeform: re ddos generally, pest entirely happpy to ride on arbitrarily large block of ips, or bank of gsm modems, wardrive, etc., by design
asciilifeform: apropos -- in all srsness, the carrier-agnosticism of pest does mean that you ~could~ upload black packets to lolcatbin or whatnot, if for some odd reason wanted to
asciilifeform: (similarly to the hypothetical shortwave carrier)
asciilifeform: ... hell, could sneakernet/hand-carry'em (may want longer timeout, lol, then)
asciilifeform: << there's no particular reason one couldn't telephonize via pest (if you've a beefy cpu); simply not an item asciilifeform gave much thought to
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-09-06 11:39:21 phf[awt]: also audio/video chatrooms, and binary w/ metadata
asciilifeform pictures if had been written in '16, say, and then mp: 'this is useless unless camwhores!' etc
asciilifeform: ... simply have a variant of 'direct msg' that carries chunk of compressed voice etc.
phf[asciilifeform]: pest fuckgoats pcie encoder/decoder board when
asciilifeform: likely you'd want signpost's luby encoder
asciilifeform: phf: lol
asciilifeform not expects to live to see 'oh hey i maxxed out my 64cpu opteron pest station, canhaz iron coprocessor plz'
asciilifeform: afaik the only pestism that (even hypothetically) would 100% need dedicated irons, so far, is shortwaveism
asciilifeform in fact intended to try, but after BingoBoingo desaparecido, no longer has with-whom to sw with , at any interesting distance
asciilifeform: !q seen-anywhere BingoBoingo
dulapbot: BingoBoingo last seen in #asciilifeform on 2022-02-28 12:49:43: In the past month US down ~19% versus Brasil's Real, 5.3% versus Peso Uruguay
asciilifeform: 'what good is phone call, mr. andersen, if you have no mouth!'(tm)(r)(c)
awt[asciilifeform]: Anyone got a link to his youtube channel handy?
signpost[asciilifeform]: awt: << sounds like he's gonna continue here?
signpost[asciilifeform]: awt: linked from here
signpost[asciilifeform]: $ticker btc usd
busybot[asciilifeform]: Current BTC price in USD: $18987.06
billymg[asciilifeform]: good to see some signs of life from BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: lol if that's actually him, shame! for not paying bill! w/out even the excuse of watery grave, lol
asciilifeform: there'd better be a good story involving prisons, mental asylums, narrow escapes!11
awt[asciilifeform]: ty signpost
signpost[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: dipping on a bill among (former?) l1's pretty unimpressive.
phf[asciilifeform]: back in the day of violent deplatformings in tmsr i thought that maybe some of the grievances are a result of weakness of wot
phf[asciilifeform]: like e.g. if bb didn't pay his bill, that doesn't necessarily need to translate into a condemnation and illegitimacy, but it should simply have a direct effect on wot raiting (or not, depending on individual). i might not care that bb didn't pay his bill, but ascii does, so take a point from rating or whatever and move on
phf[asciilifeform]: which brings the question of pest based wot back up, ‘RATE BingoBoingo -1 didn't pay his bill’ or similar, where +n/-n is relative to previous rating, n is explicit rating overrides previous ratings and comments
phf[asciilifeform]: but also asciilifeform being explicitly against in-bandisms, should something like this have it's own command? would be useful if it still showed up as a message, but was otherwise annotated at packet level. does it make sense to make explicit "rating command", or should it be some kind of "op command" that lets one send c
phf[asciilifeform]: ommands in some kind of ll little language "rate x n comm" "unrate" "bid" "ask" etc
signpost[asciilifeform] grows quite fond of this notion of a chain of structured social pronouncements.
signpost[asciilifeform]: "required for dynamics of pest protocol itself" may be one way of dividing what becomes a message type.
signpost[asciilifeform]: wot may very well fit that definition at some point, perhaps involved in message propagation. say I issue a request for a given hash in the context of a filesharing system.
signpost[asciilifeform]: I may at some times only want to consider offers to transfer the file from immediate peers, other times from l2, etc
signpost[asciilifeform]: "I don't care how much noise I get back; I need this file and am willing to eat a lot of failed hashes to find it" vs "I'm deploying a server that belongs to me with an OS image and I'm willing to speed things up by using ally boxes"
phf[asciilifeform]: but also "rate ben and jerries seattle, wa -1 too urban" etc :>
phf[asciilifeform]: there's also that point about not being able to tie ratings to individuals, maybe there should be a restriction on the travel of these things? if i rate something, it can be an equivalent of direct message, or it propagates in a broadcast. different implications of both
asciilifeform: phf: maybe not clear from asciilifeform's gripe, but not so much problem of 'grrr, bastard, not paid!' but that he's got a colo that asciilifeform has nfi wat-do with ( i.e. asciilifeform's fault, did not specify in pact 'if you dunpay for 6mo it gets sunk in ocean' )
asciilifeform: from asciilifeform's pov, 1 of the serious wins from wot-only biz is that it can be run informally, like tabs in old saloons, without having to consider the possibility of ending up used for interest-free (and never paid) loans by randos
asciilifeform: this 'only worx while it worx' obv
asciilifeform: so concretely, asciilifeform not pissed 'b/c not paid!', but rather mystified that fella couldn't even be arsed to send a 'throw it in ocean plz kthx' pgpgram
phf[asciilifeform]: the win of old saloon is that lol where you going to go friend, your ranch and wife are here. i've made this point before, about fundamental failure of tmsr, but there was never closed economy. bb's business doesn't run on asciilifeform's iron, so his disappearance doesn't signify "probably had a heart attack on the way ho
phf[asciilifeform]: me", but simply "stopped visiting this particular reddit"
asciilifeform: phf: this is imho fundamentally inescapable, for sets of folx who aint actually sitting together in same mars dome
asciilifeform: tmsr had a reasonably good 'sim' going, of 'mars dome', but as these go unsurprisingly imploded in the usual way
asciilifeform: this is why the folx ~seriously~ interested in 'closed economies' tend to build jonestowns, rather than fucking around with electronics
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, that's the case i think where i agree with your grievances, mp could've tried it, instead of the whole faux lordship structure, attempted a retainer format, where one could, through work and collaboration come up from ranks
phf[asciilifeform]: but started with actually paying people to do work, lol
asciilifeform: mp at least explicitly admitted, 'i dun want the work of herding moos'
phf[asciilifeform]: rather pay for camwhore girls than programmer boys, etc.
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform's hypothesis remains 'd00d wasn't actually rich enuff -- considering the market depth of btc -- to build a rhodesia'
asciilifeform: so artfully danced around the issue with 'dun want'
asciilifeform: there's a lengthy history allaround of folx pretending that the things they can't afford to do (e.g. build sane iron on which sane os is possible, to take unrelated example) 'don't need doing after all'
asciilifeform: (recall laddel's 'masamune' episode)
asciilifeform: mp's intergalactic empire was a type of masamune.
signpost[asciilifeform]: not sure it was that, or hell, correctly noticing when mandate of heaven passed.
signpost[asciilifeform]: in either case there's use in a protocol where folks can talk about each other and announce shit they have to sell.
asciilifeform: signpost: the difficulty, unsurprisingly, ultimately is ~never in 'how do we talk' but 'what's there to sell'
asciilifeform: if nobody 'sows or reaps', then wat-sell.
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform, i can see that, i mean, it was kind of obvious with the harem, that "harem" was always hanbot, until it was also bimbo
asciilifeform: well + the occasional guest
signpost[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: "what use is a baby"
signpost[asciilifeform]: all I'm saying.
signpost[asciilifeform]: tmsr wanted to be the superstructure between sovereigns and no node present was.
asciilifeform was never fully onboard with 'btc is irresistible to sovereigns' notion, considering the latter's undying fondness for printing themselves palaces via debasement
dulapbot: (trilema) 2017-01-26 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you don't want a strong currency while industrializing.
signpost[asciilifeform] would be happy at this stage of life to disintermediate "I have unpasteurized dairy products for sale".
asciilifeform: ^ for instance
phf[asciilifeform]: saw this recently: “behind every homesteading wife is an IT husband making six figures” :p
asciilifeform: prolly phact
signpost[asciilifeform]: huehue, but wife-net is not to be underestimated!
signpost[asciilifeform]: equip the babes, instinctive cult-propagators that they are
busybot[asciilifeform]: Current BTC price in USD: $18973.21
asciilifeform: signpost: the 'where seekrit milk for btc?' thing is example of larger unsolved mega-boojum, where folx who actually sow/reap/milk cows are (justifiably!) suspicious of complicated electronics and won't touch (unintermediated) btc with barge pole
asciilifeform: ... so yer moar or less stuck with programmers selling ??? to ea.other
asciilifeform: (+ a population of chumps who think they 'use bitcoin' because they made a gox acct)
asciilifeform suspects that if e.g. rifle required a <=100nm ic die, with GB+ of ???, farmers etc would arm selves with crossbows and call it a day
asciilifeform: 'decentralized protocol' has limited 'teeth' if can only run on ultra-centralizing substrate, is the sad thing.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: (trilema) 2019-04-17 asciilifeform: it's the most massively centralized industry that exists. there are actually moar independent satellite launchers than e.g. <= 70nm fabs.
signpost[asciilifeform]: perhaps all the ways are closed. dying next to an art project isn't so bad.
phf[asciilifeform]: farmers still buy latest gb+ of ??? ford truck
phf[asciilifeform]: but i'm mostly sniping, don't otherwise have a point
asciilifeform: phf: for that matter there aint all that many places where can make e.g. 308 shell to spec. (considerably harder than to make what to load it into)
signpost[asciilifeform]: life is also remarkably easy yet.
asciilifeform: somehow not bothers people
phf[asciilifeform]: it's a shame that a particular cut of job of the glorious leader left some otherwise important problems outside of scope. "the amish can talk to me on this here #trilema channel"
phf[asciilifeform]: *cut of jib
asciilifeform: phf: iirc when pressed, turned episodically into 'they can talk to my vast network of spy-emissaries'
signpost[asciilifeform]: as I let that one continue to digest, eh, the prophet yields to no one.
signpost[asciilifeform]: later the zealots compromise the thing until it's actionable.
asciilifeform: 'let mountain come to muhammed'(tm)(r)(c)
phf[asciilifeform]: my hotel is as clean as elven arse(tm)(c)
phf[asciilifeform]: signpost, damn, what a missed opportunity of "risen from the sea!"
phf[asciilifeform]: thrice foam-reborn, primordial foam, foam of the confusion of the peoples, and finally the sea foam
phf[asciilifeform]: hehe, i knew which one it was before even clicking
asciilifeform: what other, lol
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: << neat link. atm currently have all major ingredients of biodiesel; methanol, sodium hydroxide lye, veggie oil. look forward to a writeup when I get around to actually ~doing~ it
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-09-05 20:13:28 billymg: re: diesel, was checking these guys out recently:
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: thought it was obv., but is only remotely +ev if other people give you the 'bio'
asciilifeform: for ~phree
billymg[asciilifeform]: nice, crtdaydreams
billymg[asciilifeform] would definitely read
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform ofc, but would like to get the chemistry down pat before dumps vat of dirty oil into tank
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: sure can preheat and strain, but over time quickly will clog injectors
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: not going to brick ute
asciilifeform: folx truly serious about oddball 'mad max' fuels oughta look into 'external combustion engine' imho (i.e. steam cycle)
asciilifeform: 0 injectors to clog
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: am fully aware, but then wai not just gassifier?
billymg[asciilifeform]: crtdaydreams: according to linked site the fuel their machine produces can go into unmodified diesel engines, and be mixed at any ratio with pump-bought diesel
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: far less waste energy with gassification
asciilifeform: crtdaydreams: in finland until '70s was not uncommon to see 'gasenwagen' with potbelly stove welded to back
asciilifeform: has the obv minus
crtdaydreams[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: yup, in europistan had them all throughout WW2 when fuel supply became scarcity
asciilifeform: steam -- simpler, mechanically, and -- with sumthing resembling modern machining -- with turbine, ~similarly efficient to the carburetted 'ice'
asciilifeform: ( the traditional and incurable minus of steam aint 'inefficient' but 'slow to revv', 'how will you blitzkrieg on a steam zundapp!', which theoretically curable with 'electro hybrid' setup..)
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: wat about storeing the steam in a baloon tied to top of the car, then opening valve into turbine when u need juice
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: who didn't make this in childhood, lol
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: time to make the childhood dream real
asciilifeform: ( laff, but occasional crackpot actually proposes 'compressed air car' in earnest. 'folx who can't do arithmetic are doomed to talk nonsense'(tm)(r)(jmc) )
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: ye i guess the baloons wouldnt fit trhough tunnels etc
asciilifeform: lol not why but anyway.
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: im joking, but jokes aside, u would have the steam engine + tank to solve the slow to revv problem. why wouldnt that work
jonsykkel[asciilifeform]: when tank low u crank up heat
phf[asciilifeform]: i always assumed those things were wood powered
asciilifeform: луц-powered, recall, explicitly told in story
asciilifeform: ('from seawater')
asciilifeform: ( for n00bs, 'least sexy' but phunctional starship from cult su film 'kin-dza-dza' )
asciilifeform wonders whether anyone made properly synced eng subs for subj
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