Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
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asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-15#1009735 << nah. by analogy with stellar novae -- fusion can getcha a larger-than-ideal net, which will then frag
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-07-15 23:34:10 awt[signpost|billymg]: Can we assume, given Dunbar's number, which is in the range from 100 to 250, that any two pestnets that fuse will likely be of size s and D - s?
asciilifeform: (not necessarily along the original edge of fusion, either)
asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-15#1009749 << the problem is that currently is absolutely trivial for impersonator to fraudulently extend a chain
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-07-15 23:58:12 signpost: suppose a rating pointed to a given message to indicate identity. "I'm rating whomever produced this chain of messages"
signpost[asciilifeform]: ratings prior to the fraudulent extension would give one trust in the chain up to that point.
signpost[asciilifeform]: ratings after would resolve the split
signpost[asciilifeform]: and that still requires the humans to figure out who's bob, which seems unavoidable
signpost[asciilifeform]: (specifically, update rating to head of real bobchain, negrate fake bobchain)
asciilifeform: signpost: the thing is, there is no usable 'identity' attached to either chain. (unless 1 of the 'bobs' is in yer l1, in which case you auto-resolve the fork, by existing spec, and there aint any 'bob problem')
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: but isn't that the point? like impersonator in l1 is “irrelevant”, but impersonator in l>1 is the whole reason for ‘gossip’?
asciilifeform: phf: observe 'gossip' is nowhere in pest spec
signpost[asciilifeform]: I tihnk this problem requires some amount of gossip.
asciilifeform never bought into mp's notion that inability to usefully distinguish l2+ msgs is 'feature'
asciilifeform: it's a bug.
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: what!
signpost[asciilifeform]: whoever knows the bobs must speak for them, convince others of their bobacity.
asciilifeform: what asciilifeform aimed for is somehow 'martian bank', i.e. emulate as much as possible of the mechanics of 'dulapnet' but w/out the hierarchy.
asciilifeform: signpost: of what 'convince others' if there's no means to ~distinguish~ the bobs, is the q
asciilifeform: atm they aint guaranteed to be distinguishable.
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: that's a shame, because i'm kind of in it for the ambiguity :) i kind of like the idea of gossip, because while you can have “trusted communication” with your immediate net, anyone outside of it intentionally get a potentially distorted picture. не веришь, прими за сказку
asciilifeform: phf: yer in luck then
signpost[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: there is what to distinguish. somebody peered with all bobs in question.
asciilifeform: dun look like anyone knows, phf, how to get rid of the ambiguity.
signpost[asciilifeform]: *you* don't have what to distinguish, but you'll have to be supplied it by who has in some form to know.
signpost[asciilifeform] might need to sketch the idea out.
asciilifeform will read
asciilifeform: no reason to hurry
signpost[asciilifeform]: phf: I think there's utility in having both spaces.
signpost[asciilifeform]: where one swears before god and all, and where nobody can prove exactly who said what outside the cabal.
asciilifeform: 'bob problem' fwiw unfortunately not only affects 2+ l2+ 'bobs', but also fact that one cannot distinguish a hearsay from l1 'bob' (where somehow immediate copy never arrived) from a l2+ 'bob' msg.
asciilifeform: ( can heuristic via 'bob[n]' indicator but it aint a guarantee , esp. if 'bob' l1 is poorly connected )
signpost[asciilifeform]: wouldn't a later direct message resolve?
asciilifeform: if arrives -- yes
phf[asciilifeform]: i've given it thought, and i think you're overthinking it! :)
signpost[asciilifeform]: which points self-chain at the questionable message that might've been hearsay or fake?
asciilifeform: aha, in principle oughta get the original eventually
dulapbot: (asciilifeform) 2022-05-08 thimbronion: Why not allow "locking" of selected l2+ handles to a set of peers? If a message from a locked handle does NOT come through ALL peers to which locked with n bounces, annotate. Thus if alice and bob both have a mallory and mallory locally is locked at 1 bounce to bob, mallory with for example 1 bounce via alice ONLY will be annotated. This would of course be a heurstic and not
signpost[asciilifeform]: or udp gods sent that one to satan, get next message, meh.
phf[asciilifeform|asciilifeform]: i think it's a kind of useful property, where a casual bantz my arrive by various l1 - l2 paths, and you don't care that signpost's or whatever message, within context, arrived once or twice via asciilifeform. but if signpost were to suddenly proclaim the love of cocks, and it's not from his direct station, i might ask him
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-07-16 00:08:16 signpost: *you* don't have what to distinguish, but you'll have to be supplied it by who has in some form to know.
asciilifeform: ( for this reason asciilifeform wondered whether makes any sense to, as in current spec, actually display hearsays from l1 folx )
phf[asciilifeform]: to repeat himself…
signpost[asciilifeform]: or PROD arrives and I see you have a hash I don't know, and I GETDATA you for it?
signpost[asciilifeform]: inb4 "disregard that I suck cox" as codified message type.
asciilifeform: imho once we have full section 5 support, would make sense to nix hearsays purporting to come from l1 speakers
asciilifeform: entirely
phf[asciilifeform]: right. i want my comms to carry signal, and give me some guarantees, i don't want the gurantees to bulet proof hide underlying behavior in the attempt to protect me from potential abuse
asciilifeform: atm displaying'em gives ~some~ means to talk from behind nat gnarl
phf[asciilifeform|asciilifeform]: this goes back to “why pest” conversation from a while ago, with whatshisname. the point would be that, unlike e.g telegram where illusion of security actually masks over all kinds of dodgy behavior, you get a set of transparent behaviors that a skillfull operator can interpret correctly and precisely as far as their m
asciilifeform: after s.5 support worx, will be at least impossible for l2+ speaker to impersonate yer l1. which is enuff imho, to live with
asciilifeform: phf: right
asciilifeform: nifty, cheap&angry
asciilifeform: phf: do you actually own a b&w display or simply emacs knobs ?
phf[asciilifeform]: i set my terms to vt100, which tends to disable colors in most civilized cli software (uncivilized requires further intervention)
asciilifeform sat for rather long time on actual b&w 'eizo', made for radiologists, 'from back of truck'(tm). a++ contrast, never again seen anyffin like it
phf[asciilifeform]: i bought that radiologist eizo in russia, unfortunately still haven't bothered to ship it
asciilifeform: was a++ nifty thing, tho, iirc 24 bits of greyscale dac
phf[asciilifeform]: i think color in computing is mostly overrated :D video games and photos. i kind of like how genera did it™ out of necessity: a b&w work terminal and a separate color output display
asciilifeform: worked in sunlight, too
asciilifeform went back to 'emacs in borland nostalgic palette' , today still in it
asciilifeform: nuffin beats dedicated b&w thing for text contrast tho, likely ever
asciilifeform: for asciilifeform issue was the blinding white in night hours
phf[asciilifeform]: reverse mode!
asciilifeform: tried negativing, but wasn't same
phf[asciilifeform]: one day we're going to have those fast refresh eink displays. any day now. two more weeks.
asciilifeform: suspect highly subjective thing tho
asciilifeform fave display was ancient ibm terminal, green
asciilifeform: phf: lolyes. asciilifeform last yr in fact bought 'dasung', barfed after coupla min, sold
asciilifeform: the vendor royally fucked it, visual artifact fuzz on erry box connected it to
asciilifeform: (suspect -- as cost of getting even the ~10hz refresh)
asciilifeform: and wasn't simply the 'miserasure' artifacts. actually showed dynamic snow where grey oughta be
asciilifeform: was roughly the size of an a4, too, which is imho rather miniature
asciilifeform: vendor not lied -- 'you can play doom'
asciilifeform: but didn't buy it to play doom , lol
asciilifeform found experience reminiscent of 'quake' on 486dx2
asciilifeform: 'yes, can. but want?'
asciilifeform would buy a 21in 'green' tube with slow luminophor, if such thing existed...
phf[asciilifeform]: men of knowledge of the future will glass blow own b&w cathode ray tubes
asciilifeform cursed with seeing flicker even at 150+hz on regular crt
phf[asciilifeform|asciilifeform]: “these chines retina projects just don't have sufficient refresh rate for REAL WORK”
phf[asciilifeform]: *retina projectos
phf[asciilifeform]: fuck this.
phf[asciilifeform]: asciilifeform: laters
asciilifeform must bbl
phf[asciilifeform]: and if y'all thought ‘say’ was ghetto, here's how not to do nick completion: (loop for p being each packet do (intern (string-upcase (red-packet-speaker p)) :cl-user))
awt[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-16#1009752 << height of rudeness. Emperically though this happens on Twitter (or used to) where two accounts with a largely disjoint audience start a thread.
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-07-16 00:02:20 asciilifeform[billymg|signpost]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-15#1009735 << nah. by analogy with stellar novae -- fusion can getcha a larger-than-ideal net, which will then frag
awt[asciilifeform]: *empirically lol
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-07-15 23:51:11 signpost: would be nice to build such that eat-the-world is possible, even while avoiding the hubris of expecting to.
awt[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-16#1009826 << at one point I had a wyse terminal (monochrome orange) set up in my dorm room
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-07-16 00:25:14 asciilifeform[billymg|signpost]: fave display was ancient ibm terminal, green
whaack[asciilifeform]: !e view-height
trbexplorer[asciilifeform]: block_height: 745261
trbexplorer[asciilifeform]: mins_since_last_block: 39
whaack[asciilifeform]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-13#1009379 << i really enjoy this genre and specifically this mix you posted, plz post more
bitbot[asciilifeform]: Logged on 2022-07-13 09:21:38 crtdaydreams[billymg]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zGaTE2AmsU
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