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lobbes: dorion: definitely. The conversation here in #o today was helpful to me as well.
lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020737 << I think I get what you mean here now; it ties in to the can't-transplant-culture thing
ericbot: Logged on 2020-03-12 20:12:28 diana_coman: well, the republic did not stand on its own feet, it withered rather; this is the situation that is and while I see ways forwards, none of them are "we are still tmsr".
ericbot: Logged on 2020-03-12 20:26:32 diana_coman: dorion: in short, culture is essentially a sum-result; sure, it can be transmitted but within the environment that grew it basically, not transplanted (and the transplating approach has been tried over and over again with the same fail each and every time)
lobbes: as in, we can go forward in many directions, but in all directions the primary authority will not be as it was before. Therefore the meaning will necessarily be flowing from a different source. Or something like that
diana_coman: lobbes: that "or something like that" is quite the hedging.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Mircea Popescu will be publishing a closing statement for S.QNTR http://trilema.com/2020/closure/#comment-147793
billymg: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020695 << apologies for only adding my thoughts now, i was running around all of yesterday doing errands/shopping for the property and by the time i got home i was too tired to do much more than catch up on the discussion and process internally
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-12 16:45:15 diana_coman: ave1, billymg, BingoBoingo, bvt, dorion, lobbes, spyked, trinque, whaack - do you care to say your mind on this, at all?
billymg: the night before i woke up at 4:30 in the morning because i couldn't sleep. i checked the logs and that's when i saw mp's article. it was a weird feeling, a lot seemed to be happening at once. in fiat news the coronavirus hysteria continued and appeared to be escalating, fiat markets were crashing, and even btc had dropped another 1k against the usd (which, as BingoBoingo later pointed out on [http://qntra.net/20
billymg: 20/03/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-report-sharp-gains-for-usd/][Qntra], i immediately correlated with mp's announcement)
billymg: http://qntra.net/2020/03/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-report-sharp-gains-for-usd/ < link in complete form
billymg: on top of that, all this was happening in my first week in a new country, in my new life without a steady fiat income. it felt a bit like the sky was falling but it also made me feel damn lucky for getting out of the US when i did (before who knows what kind of travel ban might have prevented or postponed by escape), and for selling a large chunk of my fiat stocks to buy the property and set aside a nest egg befo
billymg: re the market crash, etc.
billymg: after reassuring myself that i have what's needed for basic survival my thoughts quickly turned to what i would *do*, and what would become of the republic, this thing for which i have rearranged my life to become a part of
billymg: mp was like the father all of us orphans never had, and since finding trilema and the logs i have grown more than i ever could have expected, or even knew was possible (and from the age of 30 onwards no less). i don't know what my life would be like without mp as the living example but it's not something i even want to think about
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-12 18:17:36 diana_coman: jfw: the reason I'm not providing you with "the definition" is that I doubt it will be any help if the detailed, documented and interacted-with live example can't help.
billymg: in general i agree with the sentiment already expressed. that there's no reason for operations to not continue, but that things will be different
billymg: my interpretation is also not that the man has retired completely, but that he feels that if there's any hope of any of us becoming men he needs to cut us loose. throw the kid in the pool so he'll learn to swim
billymg: and he has left us with a tremendous amount of support (trilema and the logs, including personal interactions with each of us). if at this point we can't continue to republic in his absence then we don't deserve the republic and it is indeed true that it cannot be constructed
billymg: for myself, i plan to continue to republic, which i understand as, stop working for the enemy, stop collecting your paycheck from a pantsuit HR department, stop half-assing and waiting around to be told what to do like a wage slave, and find your own way, with others like you
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-08-24 mircea_popescu: nor is that any kind of an exhaustive list. build a 3d art studio if you fucking feel like it, hire two or twelve dozen +ev animators to make things. buy some real estate for rental/airbnb-ing and run the damned thing as your castle, buy a buncha cab medallions do that, pretty much ~anything~ can be it.
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-08-24 mircea_popescu: if you'd be interested in helping out on that front, it'll prolly be best if you actually get involved in the partnership outright. none of this "fix the website copy" "helping", erryone wants to do the "helping" of employees whereas republic needs independent men not wage slave wannabe's.
billymg: as for mp-wp, i plan to continue to work on it only if mp or others want me to. up until now mp was the primary client and so the roadmap was shaped by his input and requirements. (although the recent embedded vpatch plugin and code shelf ideas came from diana_coman)
billymg: i will comment on trilema to see what he would like me to do, and if he's no longer interested then i will survey everyone here. perhaps i'll see about using it to stand up a website for my bnb business, maybe write a calendar plugin for it to handle bookings/reservations
BingoBoingo: <billymg> http://qntra.net/2020/03/fiatbitcoin-interfaces-report-sharp-gains-for-usd/ < link in complete form << Sorry, but this error message doesn't parse for me.
billymg: BingoBoingo: my previous line got cut in two, and so the link was split into two lines
billymg: i.e. not "clickable" for those reading the logs
BingoBoingo: billymg: Ah, ty. The connection to my desk did it's change ip dance and your the start of your speaking didn't make it to my irc client's display
billymg: BingoBoingo: yup, np
billymg: as for the group working on the OS, i of course have a vested interest in seeing that succeed (like anyone here or anyone reading the logs really). and i also want JWRD computing to succeed (i already have someone in mind here who might be interested as a client for the training program, and honestly i might be interested myself after i'm more settled in my new country)
feedbot: http://younghands.club/2020/03/13/rmd-week-19-review-mar-7-13th-2020/ << Young Hands Club -- RMD week 19 review, Mar 7-13th, 2020
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020648 - is there a literary reference in there I'm missing ?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-12 05:20:57 diana_coman: perhaps one way to see this is that here's a mighty wall, after all.
dorion: hi billymg! I'm getting caught up on your lines now.
billymg: and i will continue to keep my ears open for outreach in this way, since currently i don't think there's any other way i can support the OS project without getting in the way of the heavy hitters already working on it, outside perhaps testing candidate builds once it's at that point
billymg: hola dorian, sounds good
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020894 - I won't forget what it was like for me either. I was working through what seems substantial miscommunication with trinque on the os to see that. I called jfw cause I we'd just been to dinner and I knew he was still preparing for the planned gbw transaction with mp. he said he was going to act as if the meeting was still on and said I
dorion: have to say something.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 14:23:17 billymg: the night before i woke up at 4:30 in the morning because i couldn't sleep. i checked the logs and that's when i saw mp's article. it was a weird feeling, a lot seemed to be happening at once. in fiat news the coronavirus hysteria continued and appeared to be escalating, fiat markets were crashing, and even btc had dropped another 1k against the usd (which, as BingoBoingo later pointed out on [http://qntra.net/20
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020897 - good for you for getting out indeed.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 14:24:05 billymg: on top of that, all this was happening in my first week in a new country, in my new life without a steady fiat income. it felt a bit like the sky was falling but it also made me feel damn lucky for getting out of the US when i did (before who knows what kind of travel ban might have prevented or postponed by escape), and for selling a large chunk of my fiat stocks to buy the property and set aside a nest egg befo
dorion: billymg, I don't see where I disagree with you, glad to hear it.
dorion: billymg, as far as mp-wp the roadmap looks good and the time you've estimated to get it done isn't so burdensome so fwiw I say keep at it.
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020915 - cool++, let me know when is good for you to talk about JWRD.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 14:36:06 billymg: as for the group working on the OS, i of course have a vested interest in seeing that succeed (like anyone here or anyone reading the logs really). and i also want JWRD computing to succeed (i already have someone in mind here who might be interested as a client for the training program, and honestly i might be interested myself after i'm more settled in my new country)
dorion will be back at 19 utc.
billymg: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020928 << thank you, good to hear
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 15:00:17 dorion: billymg, as far as mp-wp the roadmap looks good and the time you've estimated to get it done isn't so burdensome so fwiw I say keep at it.
billymg: dorion: will do
billymg will bbl, teaching pet how to drive a manual
bvt: dorion: i intend to finish the currently outstanding tasks, including 2.6.32 fgrng kernel port. i also don't see a reason to stop the operation, at least in the area of Gales/TMSR-OS (i dunno if it should be called TMSR-OS given the current situation).
dorion: hey bvt, very glad to hear! and agree with coming up with a new name.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020881 - true, it's the healthier option I learnt with time.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 00:57:31 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020660 - it wouldn't surprise me if you did. in part because where we're at and in part because I see you laughing a lot.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020891 - there's a bit more he says in there; what do you make of the reason?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 11:52:14 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Mircea Popescu will be publishing a closing statement for S.QNTR http://trilema.com/2020/closure/#comment-147793
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020892 - no worries; and reading.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 14:23:04 billymg: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020695 << apologies for only adding my thoughts now, i was running around all of yesterday doing errands/shopping for the property and by the time i got home i was too tired to do much more than catch up on the discussion and process internally
diana_coman: fwiw the lot happening seamingly at the same time/all at once tends to be how things go; the unsaid part being though that ~none of what "happens" just appears out of nowhere and so it's not mandatory to end up totally surprised by everything.
jfw: billymg: I appreciated those comments, and second the weird coincidence; the previous day El Salvador goes quarantine and people here are avoiding shaking hands; then this happens. (and not out of nowhere, sure)
jfw: dorion: from some of your words you seem to be taking it pretty hard. Is it that much of a shock, after the shakeups already going on even as we joined? Could be I'm feeling a bit ...too stoical about it though
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020902 - I would add that operations should continue *in a different way*; not just the passive "things will be different"; and I'd be quite interested in hearing what each of you thinks on this "different how" , too
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 14:24:57 billymg: in general i agree with the sentiment already expressed. that there's no reason for operations to not continue, but that things will be different
diana_coman: hi jfw, how's the bellow of the blast & growling of the gale looking today?
jfw: billymg: re OS, definitely don't underestimate the value of outside testing for turning up bad assumptions, unrecognized environmental differences, inadequate documentation etc. as my recent examples perhaps illustrate
jfw: diana_coman: thoughtful words aren't coming to mind just yet there but I'm doing alright
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020915 - to my mind, each has a vested interest in *others'* work&struggle to succeed and on wider grounds really but I don't know if this even makes any sense or to whom - unless each speaks their mind, on this as on anything else.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 14:36:06 billymg: as for the group working on the OS, i of course have a vested interest in seeing that succeed (like anyone here or anyone reading the logs really). and i also want JWRD computing to succeed (i already have someone in mind here who might be interested as a client for the training program, and honestly i might be interested myself after i'm more settled in my new country)
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020917 - dorion , it was just a direct reference to that wall.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 14:36:50 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020648 - is there a literary reference in there I'm missing ?
dorion: jfw, I don't think I'm shocked since the current situation was a long time in development and from diana_coman's words yesterday I'm not beating myself up about it.
jfw: dorion: cool. what do you mean by "said I have to say something" - I'm not recalling this?
dorion: jfw, and now I'm drawing a blank on that quote. link ?
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020936 - bvt, glad to hear this; what do you make/think of the situation otherwise?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 16:18:32 bvt: dorion: i intend to finish the currently outstanding tasks, including 2.6.32 fgrng kernel port. i also don't see a reason to stop the operation, at least in the area of Gales/TMSR-OS (i dunno if it should be called TMSR-OS given the current situation).
diana_coman: dorion: in your review on yh
jfw: this btw was at least as surprising to me as asking me to explain him V earlier
ossabot: (trilema) 2020-03-13 mp_en_viaje: what i'll do is, come the 15th ima sweep the address into one of the web wallets and pay the fellows from there (at their own risk).
jfw: maybe he uses 'web wallet' figuratively.
diana_coman: jfw: surprises are where learning happens - IF you pester those surprises with questions!
jfw: dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020922
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 14:53:47 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020894 - I won't forget what it was like for me either. I was working through what seems substantial miscommunication with trinque on the os to see that. I called jfw cause I we'd just been to dinner and I knew he was still preparing for the planned gbw transaction with mp. he said he was going to act as if the meeting was still on and said I
diana_coman: jfw: what is the surprise in there?
diana_coman: today I'll need to go away from keyboard in about half an hour from now, so if there's something that is better discussed today than tomorrow, the sooner the better.
jfw: diana_coman: given all the volume of btc he's dealt in and the depth of his resources and processes, and that mpex withdrawals aren't a new process for him at all, why would he be counting on a brand-new thing plus perfect preparation from me as only alternative to a worst-possible transaction tool?
dorion: jfw, I misspoke there. I meant I said to myself I need to speak what's on my mind rather than whatever the alternative would've been.
diana_coman: jfw: you are conflating there *his options* with *his decision* (and possibly with your own role in all of it, huh)
dorion: not that you told me to.
jfw: diana_coman: perhaps he just says it to get an itch under my skin
jfw: diana_coman: well my surprise is with my role being presented as bigger than expected
diana_coman: jfw: that's a very silly way of looking at it and moreover, if you also use it (as it sounds) so that you basically ignore the feedback, it falls further than silly on that side.
jfw: dorion: ah ok.
diana_coman: jfw: perhaps leave to the side for a moment the attempt to evaluate MP's capabilities -since mhm, perhaps you don't quite have enough data there, you know?- and focus on the situation itself and what it meant/could mean for you, how about that? after all, it's your own position in any given situation that is possibly both best known to you and of most interest, right?
jfw: diana_coman: right; happy to leave aside
diana_coman: jfw: so that first step done, the next: what does/did the situation mean for you?
dorion: diana_coman regarding the different way, I don't have anything at present.
dorion: (not implying you were asking for it *now*)
jfw: diana_coman: still here but struggling on how to answer that.
diana_coman: dorion: your review aims for the most important differences you can make right now on your side, so no worries there at all.
dorion: jfw in your words, it was an honor.
ossabot: (trilema) 2020-03-07 jfw: Moving on though: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-07#1959066 - I'm honored; was spinning a bit on "but what if it fucks up and zaps more coin than I've ever laid hands on??" but yeah, can't wait for another life, it's about time
diana_coman: jfw: heh, how come I keep coming with questions to struggle with?
diana_coman: dorion: tsk, let him struggle, what; it's good for him; and he knows anyway that he won't get away with just that for an answer :P
jfw: I was given a chance; I'd spent a lot of time preparing but didn't end up good enough to fit his needs, though it was still positive as a learning experience
jfw: diana_coman: you keep coming with 'em because growth comes from struggle
dorion: diana_coman ok on both :)
diana_coman: jfw: a chance to what? and were those specific-MP needs?
jfw: a chance to interact and get his feedback for one
diana_coman: jfw: there's more than one .
diana_coman: dorion: were there some follow-up questions you had?
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020990 - now I curse in Russian for lack of proper whatfor vs whyfrom; your answer looks at my "how come" as a "to what end"; my question asked "where from" - with a view to help you figure out also how to come with better questions at all times.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 17:02:04 jfw: diana_coman: you keep coming with 'em because growth comes from struggle
jfw: well, a chance for publicity I recall he said; then, for demonstrating what I was or wasn't ready for - well that's just another way of saying feedback it seems.
jfw: diana_coman: ah, ty for point that out.
jfw: *pointing
jfw: and no it's not specific-MP needs - but I've found I'm still a bit confused on what happened:
diana_coman: jfw: so what sort of needs then? and ask to clarify then
jfw: specifically I can't expand for myself on what was the problem at hand, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020922
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-13 14:53:47 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-13#1020894 - I won't forget what it was like for me either. I was working through what seems substantial miscommunication with trinque on the os to see that. I called jfw cause I we'd just been to dinner and I knew he was still preparing for the planned gbw transaction with mp. he said he was going to act as if the meeting was still on and said I
diana_coman: jfw: sticking to what you know most on, namely your own stuff: you had just published/promised an offline wallet of your own making on top of previously published software that is the very core of your business; is this correct so far?
jfw: hm do you mean the OS by previously published or what?
diana_coman: the OS for sure; the scheme interpreter I'd gather; you tell me specifically what/if anything else
dorion: diana_coman one was what directions forward you see ? but I accept if you prefer to see if people continuing here can I identify what you see without you saying it.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-12 17:22:24 diana_coman: well, the republic did not stand on its own feet, it withered rather; this is the situation that is and while I see ways forwards, none of them are "we are still tmsr".
jfw: sure, the OS wasn't to be a part of the wallet exercise as I took it, I think I mistook your question. So, it's correct so far.
jfw: The scheme interpreter was not previously published though, I was getting all that out.
diana_coman: dorion: it's not that I'm looking for anyone to guess/match/identify, at all; it's simply that the *viability* of at least some directions depend a lot on what people want to do and which ways they want (or don't) to go; so for this reason, I really want to hear everyone who cares to go forwards in any way, really.
dorion: diana_coman, makes sense.
diana_coman: jfw: ok; MP gave you this opportunity of a *live test with useful audience* essentially; and in this I suspect is the first point to take home - by the sounds of it you really focused more on guessing/aiming for MP's needs than on the basic task(s) at hand first and foremost.
jfw: My confusion is, he asked which v I was using; I had fully tested a dependency-light manual process for the single-patch trees, but assumed that if he preferred an automated V then he'd know which and how to use it
jfw: (I've certainly used them before, but didn't test this time around, as admitted.)
diana_coman: and in being a live test of what you aim for business, you should have approached exactly like a business prospect in the end; because the 2nd point is that an opportunity (with the right people) is not pre-bounded ie how much comes out of it/as a result of it is limited only by your performance really, not by whatever you might initially perceive as "the purpose" or anything of the sort.
diana_coman: jfw: is that something you'd do to a business prospect?
diana_coman: does it make more sense to you if I call the opportunity one to "showcase your offline wallet as a working business tool"?
jfw: ...I suppose I wouldn't.
diana_coman: fwiw I do have a sneaking suspicion that your "business prospects" there are a very...interesting sort, let's say, but that'll be for another day; nevertheless, ^^^
jfw: they don't seem to push back much on anything but price, if that's what you mean, which certainly doesn't help figure out what hangups are happening internally because of me or whatever else.
jfw: which suggests to me again more practice with finding better questions to ask.
diana_coman: jfw: and to wrap it up, as you might notice even in the wording above, it all comes back to the old and oft-repeated points of don't exam take in ANY form, no matter how light and focus on causes, never on purposes because you can NOT know the future.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-12 18:12:59 diana_coman: BingoBoingo: why the fuck would you focus on *prediction* of other peoples' reasoning instead of focusing on what you are trying to *do*, ffs
diana_coman: jfw: that "don't seem to push back much on anything but price" is one the very obvious clues (and otherwise very much what I guessed without being there, because it's an effect not a cause)
jfw: huh, thanks for tying the exam-taking. I was thinking in terms of "what was I supposed to do differently?" rather than... hm.
diana_coman: aha; plenty of huhs and hms and mhms to ponder :P
jfw: "what is the best/correct way to do it?" but that can't often be known, can it?
diana_coman: jfw: the correct way to do it can be known - it stems from the task so why wouldn't it be possible to know? and note that it's not some mathematically proved absolute best we are talking about, yes?
jfw: I'm also reminded of trinque's arguments re OS (bvt's too?) but... how do we know what to build if we don't know for what purpose
diana_coman: jfw: o.O how do you jump now to that? an offline wallet is rather clearly defined (though now I recall one of the issues coming to light as a result of the attempt with MP was precisely that you didn't have quite a clear definition there to start with ...)
jfw: maybe that's why I hesitated to say "correct" because yeah the OS is a much foggier thing
diana_coman: jfw: maybe start from there really; try to figure out proper definitions for what you are trying to do (recall, a definition serves basically to neatly separate the thing out of the huge soup of ~everything, in the end) and then work from them - it might make for more self-assurance too for that matter.
jfw: diana_coman: an offline signer is a program that signs transactions and runs on a machine disconnected from the network, with data transferred by some other more controlled means. I could have stated that before, too, so quite seeing where that's my problem
jfw: *not quite
diana_coman: jfw: for one thing now it's offline signer rather than offline wallet and any change of words should be at least justified explicitly; for another thing, your problem seems to be that you don't use the definition when you get to bigger/fuzzier questions eg at "what is an attack vector relevant for this and what isn't"; all of a sudden on those you forget the boundaries the definition provides and go as wide as you can see, or so it ...
diana_coman: ... looks.
diana_coman: anyways, I need to go away from keyboard for now; I might be able to check in briefly in a few hours if that's of any help; in any case, I'll surely be back tomorrow.
jfw: diana_coman: alright I've got stuff to chew on certainly.
dorion: thanks diana_coman, take care.
jfw: Not recalling quite where "offline wallet" was introduced as the term, "split wallet" is more correct, containing signer and node parts; I see the point on how switching implicitly to more formal terminology could confuse things unnecessarily.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: The reason as I read it is that for my failure to cover all the edges S.QNTR, like S.NSA has come to be a pile of dodecahedron, a thing in which there's no trade and for its isolation has it sitting outside of economic activity. It has no book value. Further, it has no value at market that could not, in principle, be swamped by some sort of demand of compensation for work done on my part. He ends the comment bidding me
BingoBoingo: good luck, luck being a thing I, based on historical performance, could find for benefit or doom for my lack of controlling all the edges.
trinque: jfw: it's a matter of how you build things, not what you want to build
trinque: I want to build a moon base, but that want doesn't have fuck all to do with how.
trinque: doesn't mean I can't have my damned moon base either. it means more or less nothing.
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-12#1020881 << I say I'll be around to chat with y'all if diana_coman wishes.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-03-12 23:43:46 dorion: bvt, spyked, ave1, trinque, billymg I'm definitely curious to hear what each of you has to say.
trinque: my time is limited, and I'm mostly allocated to getting my sad arse out of the gravity well I was born in.
trinque: and my conceits being what they are, I'm not moving anywhere else without the scratch.
trinque: but if you want to continue to carry the OS thread, happy to oblige.
trinque: I'll write the 4th piece when y'all beat me out of my busybox-as-entire-userland position, or I yours
trinque: unrelatedly, my wallet will continue to exist, and I wont wind it down without contacting the folks who have been using it.
trinque: any jankiness with using the thing is just jankiness, not my having run off with the piggy.
dorion: trinque the deeper question is, do you want to talk with us about it or at us ? there are questions from your last article still unanswered and our most recent exchange likewise.
dorion: I have my own debts to pay for sure, but that's why I'm doing the public planning and review. to I improve my ability to work with people here.
trinque: if "with" is me becoming convinced of your method of thinking, no.
trinque: how old are you, dorion?
dorion: I'm asking if you'll answer questions.
dorion: 30yo, yourself ?
trinque: only a bit older
trinque: so explain this "talking at" I've been doing
trinque: I perceive myself to have been very clear so far, but I'll save that for next.
dorion: you just came back with the "busybox-as-entire-userland", I asked before http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-12#1959496 , http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-12#1959498 , did you read those ?
ossabot: (trilema) 2020-03-12 dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-03-12#1959477 - what do you expect to run on what you're building ? trb ? or is it a bridge too far since isn't required to boot, edit and rebuild ?
ossabot: (trilema) 2020-03-12 dorion: trinque ftr I very much appreciate what you're conveying in your series which is why I want to both talk about and see it continue. I'm not ignoring it, but I'm also not ignoring the mandate to support the implicit clients. how much are you taking the latter into consideration in what you're building ?
trinque: yes, the question is ass-backwards.
trinque: did you catch my line about the moon-base? what's unclear about it?
trinque: understand, the history of the republic is a history of juvenile men following a polymath genius around, puffing up hubris to get him to talk to them.
trinque: I am by now a walking autoimmune disorder to the stuff
dorion: he said eulora was to be supported, should I have ignored ?
dorion: and trb, etc.
trinque: if you haven't even a pot in which to cook, when someone asks you for soup, what do you do?
dorion: "No soup for you!" ; but apart from a couple packages in addition to busybox, Gales does the busy-as-entire-userspace self-hosting. so there's the pot. did you try heating it up yet ?
trinque: listen, if you already have this figured out, hop to it.
trinque: but you might question why you're so quick to evade my point
trinque: no soup for you is how all these derps never got a business off the ground
trinque: sure, soup. how
trinque: busybox may be dead wrong. how would we determine that?
dorion: the order for soup was the tmsr os clients article in my mind, the how is what we were trying to map out.
trinque: do you recall my definition of ownership?
dorion: to make it the thing an extension of yourself.
dorion: s/it//
trinque: yeah, and complexity, the interweavedness of the thing, which thwarts ownership, man being limited.
trinque: one could suppose that as you ramp complexity, you ramp the cost of ownership
trinque: more likely, your ownership tapers as complexity ramps
trinque: my experience with the cuntoo project was that every time I got the motherfucker to build, the upstream packages would literally shift out from under me, something would break, etc
trinque: I finally lassoed the entire wad of dependencies, some 900mb of them, made a build script for the whole shitwad.
dorion: sure, the cost goes up with complexity and you own it less, but if you're smart about which complexity and for whom, the value of the complexity can offset the cost.
trinque: and folks rightly balked at "wtf even is this, and you're claiming you have control of it?!"
trinque: to which I what, "yes, if you don't fucking breathe!"
trinque: "value of complexity offsets the cost" << how
trinque: you're spending future money today to wrangle the complexity like a good american?
dorion: by having a more marketable thing.
trinque: http://trinque.org/2019/12/24/ruin/ << this was the point of this btw
trinque: wrote that while I was recovering from a bar fight concussion
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021080 - I'd say the two possible approaches are studying the code and practice/testing
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 00:08:53 trinque: busybox may be dead wrong. how would we determine that?
trinque: dorion: how does "having a more marketable thing" tomorrow help your leverage today?
jfw: There are also the kinds of complexity that improve ownership capacity by simplifying how much you have to think about, detecting errors and such. High-level programming languages, avionics with multi-vendor redundant processing, ... not putting gcc in this category though.
trinque: knowing the label of something is not equivalent to knowing the thing.
trinque: yes, I can point and say "gcc" too. neither of us understand the thing, nor could carry it on our own.
dorion: trinque get people to buy into owning the various elements in the set. evaluate the people and their abilities/character/etc. use the wot as your leverage to do what you need to do with the machine.
trinque: yes, I've been apprised of the wot and how it works for some time.
trinque: that's not an answer to what I'm posing.
trinque: your mind is stuck in an imagined tomorrow.
trinque: and convinced that imagining the tomorrow has something to do with making it appear.
trinque: or that's how it sounds out here.
trinque: dorion: hold on, do you mean "buy into owning" as in they volunteer for your open source project or something?
trinque: or in whichever other form, "I don't have what to pay for this" so we'll spread the problem?
dorion: trinque, perhaps clarify what you're posing so I can try to answer it ?
trinque: can I take what you're saying as "an OS is complex, so I need to get people to help me" ?
trinque: completely reasonable; it is, you do.
dorion: you can call it stuck if you want ; I'd like to think of it as improving what's at hand each day to realize the imagined future. perhaps I'm wrong.
trinque: dang it, the moment I'm asking you one thing, you deign to answer the other.
trinque: lol
trinque: you let me know when you've popped stack all the way
trinque: here's the thing. the human mind is full of its own enemies.
trinque: whatever it's constructed as "itself", it will defend automatically
trinque: it's what the damn thing is for, but it malfunctions when the map of self is taken as fundamental, rather than a map.
trinque: if you need the image of the great thing you're going to do in order to motivate you, yes, you will defend the activity of sky-pie
trinque: surely we can carry this at a lower interval than 10min/msg
trinque: ah, seems like freenode is shitting itself.
jfw: sorry bout that trinque, dorion noted to me he was affected too. Possible also that we're being slow though.
jfw: trinque: maybe we reschedule - is this a good time of day for you?
trinque: I'm usually around in the evening us/central
dorion: trinque, back now.
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-03-14#1021110 - I was going for : http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-25#1953494
ossabot: Logged on 2020-03-14 00:31:29 trinque: dorion: hold on, do you mean "buy into owning" as in they volunteer for your open source project or something?
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-11-25 mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-25#1953458 << nothing new or different, same old thing management always was. write a plan, get people to ~commit~ to parts, chase the commitments, reschedule as needed and so on.
trinque: where's the money in any of that
trinque: yes those things, of course. there's detail missing, probably because it was so obvious to him.
trinque: "not going to tell the derp to breathe either"
dorion: I didn't manage a clear concept of direct monetization. only indirectly through jwrd at present.
jfw: I see MP's approach to filling in the details as having you try something then pointing out where you fail. How else to know which details are missing?
dorion: trinque, what do you have in mind for monetization of the simpler approach you've described ? who/what are you building it for ?
trinque: dorion: you realize you're talking about a massive industrial product, an OS, yeah?
trinque: nevermind what my plans are; if I were to say "I have none" this doesn't make having none fine.
dorion: trinque, yeah.
trinque: you're going to build this massive industrial product with the hobby hours folks have when they're doing something else to feed themselves?
trinque: *when they're not
jfw: the approach is more colonizing / terraforming than building from scratch (though perhaps unclear how much that helps)
trinque: there are more security holes in old php versions than you have dicks to plug.
trinque: now what of terraforming, and other cute metaphors
dorion: trinque, I'll admit that's management failure. I could've ask s.mg or the bitcoin foundation since they were to directly benefit. I didn't.
dorion: in part that was to see what could be done with the people who were contributing in their hobby hours, because that wasn't unsubstantial.
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-05#1954389 - was also brought up.
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-12-05 dorion_road: It occurred to me this morning, this tmsr-os project could be utilized medium to long term in both lifetime support consultancy and the hottest business idea in btc (code review and code insurance) ventures.
jfw: this is where I have to say my favored approach was avoiding php and its ilk like the plague, but since I can't reinvent mp-wp in a reasonable timeframe, I gave in. I don't see that as meaning all machines must have php - though there was talk of the one big vtree approach
trinque: dorion: there, he already said, and said, and said.
trinque: so yes, make someone pay.
trinque: then you'll be able to pay.
trinque: and paying is all there is.
trinque: jfw: doesn't mean it has to build and install
trinque: I don't go in there and run "make", who cares?
trinque: but I don't know what business php or crystalspace has when discussing the OS
jfw: the storage isn't free especially once "php" turns out to mean 500 other can't-live-without packages, but yes there's at least that.
trinque: you make an OS that isn't shitty, then at the next level of ontology things either build upon that, are fixed, or are discarded
trinque: you want to bend your OS to "must run crystalspace" and you can just stay right where we already are.
trinque: I mean, you by definition will.
trinque: jfw: damn straight, it'll spider out into hell

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