jfw: and re-reading, I think that misunderstanding is that in haste I missed the "or do you do other stuff too?", so answered narrowly about time spent on current clients, which answer was then interpreted broadly as that's all I do.
jfw: So yes, I do other things, some of which listed above; perhaps I oughta write a post to take stock of them properly.
jfw back from handwashing dishes; the model around here seems to be "What dishwasher? Either you afford slaves, or you slave." And I don't think myself in the first category as yet.
jfw: Speaking of efficiency, perhaps room for improvement in that it took me 1.5hr to figure out the "do other stuff too" thing, which time wasn't getting filed under #ossasepia but nonetheless wasn't otherwise gainfully used. There mighta been some spinning involved before organized thought. Still, for now I'm glad to have figured it out at
ossabot: (trilema) 2017-04-07 mircea_popescu: no, let's also de-equivocate think. there's two kinds of think, one's a forge/reflow/examination of trees resulting in analytical consumption of inputs with actionable outputs guaranteed ; the other is a neurotic behaviour perhaps best described as spinning, whereby specific emotional triggers / detriggers are visited in succession. the prussian model was never concerned with the former in any sense, but merely aimed to elimi
jfw: all, rather than go on spinning along the lines of "diana_coman is a maniacal slavedriver and I can never sleep again, or I'm inadequate for unfathomable reasons"
jfw: And I hope I'm doing better at the open communication now.
jfw: ahoy dorion
dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006393 << that'd be me.
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-15 20:21:51 jfw: The business is with a friend I met in Panama, who assures me he'll be dropping in here soon. I came originally in 2013, just to get established somewhere non-US and it had easy-ish residence and favorable taxes for my situation at the time.
jfw: diana_coman: dorion is the fellow that got me to give trilema / then-#bitcoin-assets a second glance after whatever triggered me on first encounter, stock exchange without stylesheet or necessity of beating women or something.
jfw: His other credits include the aforementioned stillborn business plan, the present so-far-so-good one and closing the current clients
jfw: dorion: though we know it's but the first step, I'm proud of you for showing up here.
jfw: We've been stuck in some kind of a mutual encouragement yet avoidance-enablement pact.
jfw: I'd be witholding information not to say that I was crying like a little girl earlier, telling him over irc why he needs to join, and Now.
jfw: The neighbors are probably wondering who died; as far as I could tell it was gonna be either my 5-year best friends relationship with him, my potential relationships with ~everyone here, or a particularly stubborn bit of our own stupidity.
dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006422 << If I may, at present creating the curriculum is taking up the most time. once that's established, and now that blog is set, I expect the backlog of what he's done will be published. e.g. his Linux distro, Scheme interpreter, IRC client, etc.
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-15 20:45:40 diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too?
jfw: It will be.
jfw: BingoBoingo: maybe I'll add that film to my list if it can be found outside the border, because you called it cathartic and how about that coincidence.
BingoBoingo: jfw: It's however many minutes of Pepe Mujica and some other pichis getting what is theirs. Just when they return him to the Punta Carretas Prison/Shopping... It's time to end the film. From there (spoiler) he lives and becomes president.
dorion: diana_coman as for why I'm here: to sharpen myself for sound money and sane computing.
BingoBoingo: So make sure to end it on a high note.
jfw: One thing we're up to, though dorion more than I, is studying management, because it's necessary for what we're trying to do and we seem to suck at it.
jfw: haha, ty BingoBoingo.
BingoBoingo: There's another more recent documentary where Pepe waxes nostalgic about robbing banks with his .45 etc, if you need context for why the police shot him in the street.
dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006391 << to add more context to this and with the luxury of hindsight, the original also included premature optimatizations such as a) make a linux from scratch cause no way to 'catalyst' a gentoo stage3 without a gentoo and b) implement scheme interpreter because even though jfw is strong with python, "not specified, does anyone even
dorion: ~understand~ the thing?"
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-15 20:18:42 jfw: Original idea of the business was to do btc/fiat brokerage, "done right" as in GPG API, TRB and so forth. The connections to do that didn't work out, but since I'd been working on hardware/software security, we've focused on selling that / training.
jfw: indeed, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-14#1006292 is a bit of sanity that didn't come naturally or cheap, and perhaps a lesson I still haven't completely learned
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-14 21:29:37 jfw: (and to revisit the content of the above - yes, my object was to find a version most amenable to ripping out the autoconf; which I've deferred figuring that having SOME working blog, even if by mystery package manager, is better than none.)
jfw: But the principle failure, I think, beyond any particular bad decision, was in not reaching out to people who could have helped make better decisions.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 20:02:47 jfw: and re-reading, I think that misunderstanding is that in haste I missed the "or do you do other stuff too?", so answered narrowly about time spent on current clients, which answer was then interpreted broadly as that's all I do.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006450 - why the haste anyway (not to mention that such haste that ends up costing you 1.5 hours later is quite something)? and note that 1. you weren't answering *that* fast anyway 2. I had to repeat a question earlier 3. overall it gave the impression not of "haste" but more of "he's multitasking with whatever and he's not paying much attention";
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 21:10:24 jfw: Speaking of efficiency, perhaps room for improvement in that it took me 1.5hr to figure out the "do other stuff too" thing, which time wasn't getting filed under #ossasepia but nonetheless wasn't otherwise gainfully used. There mighta been some spinning involved before organized thought. Still, for now I'm glad to have figured it out at
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 21:10:24 jfw: all, rather than go on spinning along the lines of "diana_coman is a maniacal slavedriver and I can never sleep again, or I'm inadequate for unfathomable reasons"
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006453 - you are actually!
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 21:12:29 jfw: And I hope I'm doing better at the open communication now.
diana_coman: hello dorion ; why so reluctant to join anyway?
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006462 - good for you on coming clear with it on both fronts really.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 23:18:01 jfw: The neighbors are probably wondering who died; as far as I could tell it was gonna be either my 5-year best friends relationship with him, my potential relationships with ~everyone here, or a particularly stubborn bit of our own stupidity.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006463 - dorion, do I take it you are more the manager while he's more the tech or how is this structured?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 23:24:34 dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006422 << If I may, at present creating the curriculum is taking up the most time. once that's established, and now that blog is set, I expect the backlog of what he's done will be published. e.g. his Linux distro, Scheme interpreter, IRC client, etc.
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-15 20:45:40 diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 23:26:50 jfw: It will be.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006470 - you know, the Master of Management is MP and he has published quite a book + practical examples of all sorts.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 23:36:53 jfw: One thing we're up to, though dorion more than I, is studying management, because it's necessary for what we're trying to do and we seem to suck at it.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006473 - I can see it by now from all the rest, indeed.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 23:51:28 dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006391 << to add more context to this and with the luxury of hindsight, the original also included premature optimatizations such as a) make a linux from scratch cause no way to 'catalyst' a gentoo stage3 without a gentoo and b) implement scheme interpreter because even though jfw is strong with python, "not specified, does anyone even
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-15 20:18:42 jfw: Original idea of the business was to do btc/fiat brokerage, "done right" as in GPG API, TRB and so forth. The connections to do that didn't work out, but since I'd been working on hardware/software security, we've focused on selling that / training.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006478 - absolutely this, yes.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 00:31:29 jfw: But the principle failure, I think, beyond any particular bad decision, was in not reaching out to people who could have helped make better decisions.
diana_coman: jfw, dorion anyways, it's from about 7pm gmt that I'm usually around for chat in here so find some non-hasted time one of those days.
jfw in, reading/thinking. Didn't get the best sleep: lots bouncing around in head (anticipating response: "so write it down" - working on it)
diana_coman: jfw: I can imagine; take it easy, there's still time.
jfw: ty.
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006481 - looking closer & recollecting original thread, I saw the question but got distracted by the continued Panama thread, and forgot about it. Maybe there's some irc practices I need to strengthen here - jotting down q's, or rereading? Then, in the embarrassment of having dropped
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 05:54:59 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006450 - why the haste anyway (not to mention that such haste that ends up costing you 1.5 hours later is quite something)? and note that 1. you weren't answering *that* fast anyway 2. I had to repeat a question earlier 3. overall it gave the impression not of "haste" but more of "he's multitasking with whatever and he's not paying much attention";
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 17:46:43 diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too?
jfw: it, I proceeded to reread "hastily" if at all, though that doesn't seem a defensible word choice, more like "carelessly".
jfw: re 2/3, I can see that this would be frustrating; I certainly don't imagine you write words here just because you like typing, and thus it's on me to read / digest them all.
jfw: fwiw, I wasn't multitasking at least with external things, but hard deny the not paying enough attention.
jfw: *hard to deny
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006502 - noted, that will usually work for me except Mondays and Thursdays.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 06:11:13 diana_coman: jfw, dorion anyways, it's from about 7pm gmt that I'm usually around for chat in here so find some non-hasted time one of those days.
dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006486 << hello diana_coman. I think it was a bad habit hangover of reading, but not engaging. "habits begin as cobwebs and end up as chains." and all that. but that bad habit is mine to own and replace.
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-16 08:55:42 diana_coman: hello dorion ; why so reluctant to join anyway?
dorion: when I started reading the the forum + blogs my reaction was a combination of, "this is over my head, especially on the technical side, but fucking important." + http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/trilema/2019-09-16#1936641
ericbot: (trilema) 2019-09-16 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-15#1936596 << i imagine the ~perceived~ pressure on nameless womanhood is quite immense, "omfg, what do i say, what if they make fun of me, they're gonna say i never installed linux from scratch as if it implied i'm half a dead man riding about on half a dead rabbit!!!"
baitbot: (trilema) 2019-09-15 hanbot: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-14#1936285 << more's the point is that your "household" consists of a WoT non-entity (afaik, actually. is it?) that may or may not be just as clueless about saying something here if you get a touch of The Butt. aesthetipolitical bents, righteous as they may be, pale by comparison.
dorion: jfw helped me make sense of the technical aspects and my skills have improved, but the process hasn't been public, which now I see it's overdue for change.
dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006489 << that is correct. I'm responsible for management, marketing/sales. jfw is responsible for the technical development and training program. there is a degree of overlap because as curriculum solidifies and we make more sales, I will deliver the training as well to free up jfw for further development of his soon to be published projects
dorion: and ossasepia work.
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-16 09:00:50 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006463 - dorion, do I take it you are more the manager while he's more the tech or how is this structured?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 23:24:34 dorion: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006422 << If I may, at present creating the curriculum is taking up the most time. once that's established, and now that blog is set, I expect the backlog of what he's done will be published. e.g. his Linux distro, Scheme interpreter, IRC client, etc.
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-15 20:45:40 diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too?
jfw: dorion: in that scenario we would of course need to find the right balance and not overload you either, as I understand you're strongly considering applying for mentorship too.
dorion: correct
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: http://bingology.net/2019/10/16/reasonable-lamp-setup-for-mp-wp-on-centos-6-and-anyserver-terms-of-use/ << How I put together anyserver's LAMP, feel free to ask questions
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: looks good really; iirc though I installed the mpwp for younghands on a centos6 and with lamp from repos really; it certainly doesn't hurt to have manual version + tarballs backup too though.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006526 - are you both applying or considering or what?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 12:52:55 jfw: dorion: in that scenario we would of course need to find the right balance and not overload you either, as I understand you're strongly considering applying for mentorship too.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Well, I have a preference for the particular apache and php versions.
BingoBoingo: Too many forward/backward compatibility issues pop up with different second decimal points.
diana_coman: thimbronion: that dalnet-feeling is potentially a lot of lulz but why are you so ...timid going in there or dunno
BingoBoingo: And MySQL brings compatibility issues in on the third decimal point at times
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: myeah, the joy of "versions".
BingoBoingo: My though is end of life versions of the third decimal point on apache and php may be v-genesisable. I'll leave picking a MySQL to the more versed.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: what do you mean exactly by v-genesisable ie how do you reckon those are vs others aren't?
diana_coman: mysql is quite fixed for me at the version I hammered into shape for cuntoo, anyway
jfw: diana_coman: I am currently still 'considering' but just about considered enough already and time to do something. Per your original urging to ask questions I came up with some that have been nagging for a while. Might be a bit vague, or large topics -- TMSR ideology/philosophy basically -- but I'll try to spit 'em out (if this is a good time).
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Well, I mean to prepare for Cuntoo use when I make it that far with Cuntoo. I have no strong reasons to prefer the apache and php. Just the minor preference for End of Life versions.
BingoBoingo: And the stack works on them so far.
diana_coman: jfw: it is, go ahead
jfw: Are there universal principles of what constitutes virtuous / right / honorable conduct? Is there a difference between the three?
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: probably any version that works with mpwp + has a lord signing it will be perfectly fine really
jfw: I've gathered that obedience to authority is a big one, but at the same time, figuring out what's right/wrong is important and not all "authority" is legitimate
diana_coman: jfw: hm, how clear are you there with the philosophical structure? the way you are asking the 1st question it would seem a broader scope than the very-pedestrian example in 2nd
jfw: I am probably not very clear
shinohai: Lol my alpine box has php-cli and php (5.6.27-r0) ... darn close to BingoBoingo 's 5.6.40
diana_coman: jfw: what's at the root of your question then?
BingoBoingo: shinohai: well, these things tend to converge.
BingoBoingo: 7's a different language as are the earlier 5.X versions
dorion: diana_coman what is the application process ? as far as I gather, there is the pageboy's pledge and a get to know you phase, afterwhich you make a decision.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-15 16:49:58 diana_coman: to make it perfectly clear: it's submitting to me as a mentor, not to some "prescribed pace" or programme or whatever; it's a relationship mentor-mentee and as such fully dependent on the people involved; for that matter, you may apply and I'll try to get to know you a bit better first before I can decide if I'll take you on or not.
diana_coman: I don't quite feel qualified for a full ad-hoc lecture on philosophy to start from basis all the way up.
BingoBoingo brb
jfw: diana_coman: ok, hm. Thinking how to ask better...
diana_coman: dorion: the "application process" is very simple: 1. you figure out if you want in 2. if yes, you say it and then I figure out if I want you on
diana_coman: that's all of it really
diana_coman: dorion: not a 3-ring binder procedure but a person to person interaction
dorion: diana_coman ok. I've read enough to know I want in.
diana_coman: jfw: is this you trying to make sure you "won't do the wrong thing"?
diana_coman: dorion: do you have any site/place where you write/publish something? other than jfw's intro on you, I know absolutely nothing about you.
jfw: I expect there can be no guarantee of that, but at least, is there something to ...navigate by?
jfw: Would it be, whatever is found to work to allow a culture to become dominant?
diana_coman: jfw: certainly there is and the pageboy's pledge is precisely there to help with this really.
diana_coman: jfw: hm, that's not the main point, no;
diana_coman: jfw: realise that there is no right/wrong thing by itself; it's only about doing whatever you do well or not.
dorion: diana_coman I was nearly done with an mpwp set up on my pizarro rockchip. I'm setting it back up on a vps, where I plan to publish a more structured introduction of why/how I got to where I am by Sunday.
diana_coman: jfw: for a core principle of mine (and I'd say not only mine but I don't really talk for others): focus on figuring things out for what they are rather than for what you'd want them to be/ find convenient to be
jfw: sounds quite healthy.
diana_coman: jfw: and at every juncture, choose the thing that needs to be done rather than your comfort
diana_coman: jfw: as to the republic as a whole, the fundamental aspect I'd say is the fact that it's a republic of men (ie individual agents, active and self-directed entities)
diana_coman: as opposed to a republic of laws, rules and regulations
diana_coman: hence partially the trouble in answering a question that looks for "general rules" - there aren't any as such, no; there is a culture though, sure.
diana_coman: jfw: from the outside I can easily see how one might get the impression that "there is a rule to obey"
dorion: diana_coman I see I did not answer your question directly, that answer would be no. then my line above is what I'm doing to fix that.
diana_coman: there is no such thing really; the invisible part there is that once you focus on what things really are the conclusion is to obey those that know better than you.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 16:41:06 diana_coman: jfw: for a core principle of mine (and I'd say not only mine but I don't really talk for others): focus on figuring things out for what they are rather than for what you'd want them to be/ find convenient to be
diana_coman: dorion: aha, good; are you originally from Panama?
diana_coman: jfw: part of the reason why there isn't anymore a direct entrance to #trilema is precisely the accumulated culture - it makes it extremely hard for a newcomer to *not* make catastrophic mistakes if they just wonder straight in
diana_coman: while a few years ago the gap was not *that* big, it grew and quite quickly at that
dorion: diana_coman no I am from Vermont, usia. I can give you the brief story of how I got to Panama here and expand on blog if that's satisfactory to you.
diana_coman: jfw: the explicit rules that I spell out here are mainly to help people along, to give them something solid on which to rely as they grow
diana_coman: because that's the trouble with "no rules, just do things right" - it's very easy to get lost and/or break your neck.
diana_coman: dorion: sure, go ahead.
jfw: indeed, though if you try to "rules not men", the rules pile up even higher and get more treacherous I'd expect
diana_coman: jfw: as to "how to do things right" - it starts with "act from causes not towards purposes" and "think, don't spin"
diana_coman: jfw: the resulting bureaucracy is one problem for sure; but more fundamentally the trouble with rules not men is the baked-in assumption that people are fungible, just interchangeable
jfw: the people have to be willing to stand behind the rules
diana_coman: jfw: and no, I don't intend to produce some tome of rules, lol; that pledge is intentionally as short I could make it while capturing the core that is of use for newcomers.
jfw: appreciated!
diana_coman: jfw: what do you mean by stand behind the rules? note that discriminating is mandatory as it were
diana_coman: ie I don't have "the universal rule that applies to everyone under the sun", no
diana_coman: all human interactions are discriminations really
dorion: in 2010 I came across Peter Schiff, American investor who forecast 2008 financial crisis. this opened me up to seriously exploring what things are and ultimately lead me to decide by spring 2011 I would do what I had to do to work for him. in January 2012, he advertised openings for commission only sales people to move out of usia and work for his new bank, www.europacbank.com .
jfw: trying to work out the implications of non-fungibility. If one generation comes up with some rules, the next won't necessarily want the same rules, but there they are so it becomes hypocrisy
dorion: I spent a year in St. Vincent and the Grenadines (where the bank was then domiciled) and in January 2013 moved to Panama.
diana_coman: jfw: you don't yet seem to have the prerequisites for what you are trying to picture really so yeah, it ends up nonsense
diana_coman: jfw: you'd need to start by understanding what the "rules" are and how they come to be: it's not some arbitrary and isolated set of "do this/don't do that"; moreover, the generations are also not insulated from one another; in principle and in short, you can say that both evolve
diana_coman: ie there's a generation 2 of rules just like of people: not entirely different nor the same (even if wording stays the same)
diana_coman: that being said, the thing is that best "rules" are simply clear statements of some hard underlying reality ; and as such, generation doesn't matter
diana_coman: sure, some might forget the how and why and as a result, they'll think the "rule" doesn't apply to them
jfw: It's actually a bit of a relief to hear I struggle with this because I'm... not tall enough yet, as it were
dorion: euro pacific bank was trying to be innovative in a way: since the premise was the bailouts only exacerbated the fundamentals that caused 2008 panic, i.e. central bank price fixing of interest rates, the strategy was "we don't make loans on deposits, 100% reserve banking". the bank was to be a conduit for selling investment products, e.g. stocks, bonds, precious metals.
diana_coman: dorion: and what happened there?
diana_coman: (it's first time I hear of both this schiff guy and his bank)
dorion: however, the underlying contradiction is/was the centralization of fiat banks means euro pacific bank, or any other small bank that wants to wire usd/eur/gbp/etc, has to have accounts with a correspondent. so really the bank was forced by it's nature to extend credit to these correspondents in the form of overnight deposits.
diana_coman: jfw: there's a long reading list that can come out of just those questions, lol; but for one thing you have more pressing matters to see to atm and for the other I can't say I have a very clear idea yet of what and how you know
diana_coman: dorion: you'd think that would have been obvious from the start.
dorion: diana_coman 2013 was when I started paying more attention to Bitcoin and in July 2013 I met Erik Voorhees. then in 2014 I left the bank to take a job with Coinapult.
diana_coman: oh boy, lol
diana_coman: dorion: what did you actually do at the bank?
dorion: diana_coman developed business. called leads from the lead pool they had and cold law firms, corporate agents, etc to develop referrals.
diana_coman: dorion: not bad; if anything, one of the rather lacking skills currently in the republic
dorion: diana_coman re being obvious. perhaps. I was 22, saw it as my ticket out of usia and working for who I wanted to work for.
diana_coman: dorion: ah, I meant obvious *for them* not for you (and esp not at 22, no)
diana_coman: ie obvious for that schiff guy
dorion: he doesn't exactly live in reality. he lives in a fantasy, in part, that if the US consitution were enforced usia's problems would in large part be resolved.
jfw: which quite ties it back to rules vs. men eh
diana_coman: dorion: bwahahahaha, that's quite the sort of thing that makes americans seem... childish at best
dorion: Bitcoin was the cause of me setting the bozo bit on him. evoorhees had at least one debate with him in Dec 2013 in which it was clear he was working towards a purpose, i.e. "no intrinsic value, gold has intrinsic value", in rejecting btc.
jfw: diana_coman, re long list, fair enough, thank you for the lecture so far and I'll certainly be chewing on it at a more suitable time.
diana_coman: dorion: how old is this schiff guy? because that's quite a usual stance in "too old to understand a major shift in such a core place"
dorion: Erik argued, even in alignment closer alignment with Peter's alleged school of thought, the Austrians (Mises, Hayek, Rothdard, etc, value is subjective.
diana_coman: jfw: do ask if there's more.
dorion: diana_coman by now I reckon he's in his late 50s, early 60s.
diana_coman: dorion: aha; while not impossible, rather unlikely; more likely he is trying to "make america great again" on his specific domain.
asciilifeform following thread w/ interest. diana_coman dunno whether you know about these, but in usa there is/was a vast fantasyland of 'gold -- intrinsic value!11' types, with gigatonnes of forest killed to print their 'philosophies' (which reduce largely to 'buy paper pseudo-gold from $scammer')
dorion: diana_coman he was/is also bias for experiencing the dotcom bubble and adising people, "why would you buy yahoo! they have no earnings and are valued more than new zealand." so he associated the btc with dotcom bubble.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: lol, I didn't know that specific bit, no; but the "gold has value" is the most common-argument I hear even if I don't mention bitcoin at all (they with the gold-value do)
dorion: with schiff I reckon it's more personal. his late father, irwin, died in prison for attempting to make legal case that IRS is an illegal operation. judge: "no you can submit your books or supreme court cases to support your point as evidence." schiff: "the supreme court doesn't have a say?" judge: "correct"
asciilifeform: iirc mp called'em 'single-issue Just-Wanters'. folx took issue with one particular pile of paper an' promises (the 'fed') but 0 issue w/ ~other~ , entirely indistinguishable piles (e.g. paper 'gold')
diana_coman: dorion: ah, the "it's a bubble" comes next, yes; it even is defensible in first instance but the trouble is that meanwhile after all those years, mhm, rather not all that defensible anymore.
dorion: asciilifeform schiff certain certainly says own bullion you hold and bullion, not nuemismatics, but also sells literal 'paper' gold - perth mint certificates. "backed by creditworthiness of government of w. australia."
asciilifeform: diana_coman: these folx ~ideologically~ hate bitcoin, and will lie about it at erry opportunity; for approx. same reason that cockroaches , if they could speak, would lie about ddt
asciilifeform: dorion: pray tell how does one 'hold bullion' w/out a working set of nukes and delivery systems ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform: that sounds actually very fitting yes; and I can easily see how a just-wanter might - for a while - even pass for more than that, basically for as long as his single issue happens to be relevant.
dorion: diana_coman aha, I've seen Erik on twatter to peter, "scoreboard".
diana_coman: dorion: so move on to this coinapult thing; what did you do there?
dorion: asciilifeform sure, goldbugs might have it burried somewhere and a safe of AKs/ARs but rarely think of how am I going to sell ?
asciilifeform: dorion: familiar with e.g. captain kidd ? how much good his buried goodies did him ? but i'ma leave off, is entirely other thread.
asciilifeform: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006632 << re these inept attempts to 'cut down the master's house with the master's tools', mp had a piece where dissects the 'sovereign citizen' etc idjits
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 17:24:43 dorion: with schiff I reckon it's more personal. his late father, irwin, died in prison for attempting to make legal case that IRS is an illegal operation. judge: "no you can submit your books or supreme court cases to support your point as evidence." schiff: "the supreme court doesn't have a say?" judge: "correct"
dorion: diana_coman for coinapult, they hired me to run customer support. because I wanted to learn more about the technical side and there was a lot to do, I wore many hats. I took on basic QA testing (they were on a 2 wk release cycle (move fast and break things)), deploying new code to test environments, website design/copy writing, I helped the sales team generate leads, documented process, and
dorion: ultimately was a main point of communication between business development and the engineers.
diana_coman: dorion: are you good at that sort of bridging? it can be quite demanding when it's effectively translating from one domain to the other.
whaack: diana_coman: Update on my V progress. As mentioned in my younghands post I am working to write toposort as an exercise before rereading/studying asciilifeform's or anyone else's code. I realize that there is an added task of figuring out what the directed edges are from the vpatches (since the vpatches do not refer to each other directly). I am confident I can solve this, but I don't know how long it will take. I worry I'll get stu
whaack: ck and mess up my todo list for the week, which is already looking pretty tight.
diana_coman: whaack: heh, were you seriously planning in doing ALL-on-V in one week?
dorion: then http://qntra.net/2015/03/coinapult-reports-hot-wallet-compromise/ that happened, which rocked me to the core. and resulted in a) me taking a big step back and telling myself I need to have a much better grasp of technology/security before I talk anymore and b) the company being sold to a group in Panama.
diana_coman: dorion: ah, did that come as a surprise to you?
dorion: b) resulted in all customers being made whole, I don't know the details of how the investors faired.
whaack: lol. well if i had no other obligations i think that a tool that a demonstration of a tool that sorted the vpatches may be possible.
dorion: diana_coman the company was struggling, bit off more than it could chew and 2013 bubble was still deflating. I did trust who I was working with and to this day am not certain 'who took', so that stung quite a bit, caused me to re-evaluate my education so I could be a better evaluator of who is worthy of trust.
whaack: argh.s/^/if i had no other obligations, i think that a demonstration of a tool that sorted the vpatches may be possible.
diana_coman: jfw: looking at the logs it seems line crossed: this is a reply to the q if there's something to navigate by
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 16:37:23 diana_coman: jfw: certainly there is and the pageboy's pledge is precisely there to help with this really.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 16:35:20 jfw: I expect there can be no guarantee of that, but at least, is there something to ...navigate by?
dorion: diana_coman I think part of why I trusted them was because I ~wanted~ it to work out. was working towards a purpose.
diana_coman: whaack: so revise your plan *carefully* and *thoughtfully* + publish it on younghands as new post "revise plan dates"; it should include why and how the revision became needed.
diana_coman: dorion: that's usually how it works, yes; see the what they are, not what you want them to be
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 16:41:06 diana_coman: jfw: for a core principle of mine (and I'd say not only mine but I don't really talk for others): focus on figuring things out for what they are rather than for what you'd want them to be/ find convenient to be
jfw: diana_coman: I got the flow based on the "there is".
diana_coman: dorion: it's just rather surprising you managed to not see it given how you were precisely in the middle ie in the best position to actually spot the problems of all types (technical and non-technical too)
diana_coman: jfw: good then; it's still better that it's made clear in the logs now too for any log-readers anyway.
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006647 << I think I have skills there and certainly room to improve as I improve my education. Part of it is translating what you've learn and remembering how you made the connections. There was a situation in a training last week where I helped clients understand a point jfw was making.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 17:39:45 diana_coman: dorion: are you good at that sort of bridging? it can be quite demanding when it's effectively translating from one domain to the other.
asciilifeform: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-16#1006650 << fwiw asciilifeform , lol, did... ( but in all seriousness, maybe i wrote it confusingly ? which is why standing offer to all of diana_coman's students to whom assigned v -- to explain any part that did not make sense. plox to ask asciilifeform . )
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-16 17:41:18 diana_coman: whaack: heh, were you seriously planning in doing ALL-on-V in one week?
diana_coman: asciilifeform: you know, you did it, yes but remember you "did" that after you had actually... designed V in the first place? and that design (regardless of what you might think) was not the result of "just some time during this week here"
diana_coman: asciilifeform: not to mention that I seriously doubt that they actually graduated from the same kindergarten as you :P
asciilifeform: diana_coman: right. but toposort ought not to stump anyone . ( and fwiw the algo is dijkstra's , asciilifeform did not discover it with bare teeth )
diana_coman: asciilifeform: note also that this wasn't just about "write the code" ; it was fully getting what V is, how it works and why and whatfor; + implementation as an aside (as it always rightfully is, just the very last and least piece)
diana_coman: asciilifeform: toposort sure.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: aha. 'fully get' i expect would take longer. but imho substantially easier 1nce student actually makes sense of the orig proggy.
jfw: diana_coman, I have resolved to apply for your mentorship too. I wish to become the best me that I can be, and I am satisfied that you would be my best chance at it.
whaack: diana_coman: okay re revision. I have a q about implementatio being last piece. If I annotate the code, then i spoil solving the puzzle. Should I annotate the code anyways?
asciilifeform: ( ben's imho remains the definitive tutorial . )
whaack: annotate the code first* anyways?
diana_coman: jfw: congrats on making a decision, heh.
diana_coman: dorion: how did it come anyway that only yest poor jfw had to beg you to come in here but then you beat him to decision to apply?
dorion: diana_coman I knew there were problems, but believed there was also potential for rectification/profitability/success and I committed to 'going for broke and making it work' rather than jumping ship. my biggest focus then was stepping my game up.
diana_coman: whaack: you get a choice there; if you want to solve it as a puzzle, do it as a puzzle ie leave annotation for next week and add instead some deeper exploration of V as a concept & tool.
whaack: okay ty.
jfw: diana_coman: he did beat me to forum generally - got rockchip, posted about some trb troubles in #trilema while under old voice model. He had to pressure me a bit to jump in too, though original pool had closed, so I was returning the favor.
diana_coman: jfw: as you have already quite a few posts to write, get them done so I can read them before prodding you more if needed.
jfw: will do.
diana_coman: jfw: did you make him cry though? you should have!
jfw: I believe I did actually.
dorion: diana_coman maybe that's part of the bridging. he just watched me lay it on the line. there's a bit of jacob/easu in our relationship. he tends to dwell in tents and eat lentils, whereas I work more in the fields. I don't reckon he's after my birthright though.
diana_coman: jfw: why were you reluctant though? you did seem to... how to put it, circle but from a "safe" distance
dorion: <jfw> I believe I did actually. << you believe wrong, lol.
diana_coman: dorion: ahaha, so it's jacob welsh and esau dorion
dorion: hah. well, my parents named me Robinson and that's what I go by.
dorion: which tends to confuse ppl because they're more acclimated to 'Dorian' as a first name and Robinson as last, but what can I say.
diana_coman: dorion: let those confused be confused, what; back to your story though: the coinapult happy-bubble burst around you; what next?
jfw: diana_coman: I'm not entirely sure. There was some fear of change / unknowns. And spinning about it, yes. Feelings out to get me I suppose.
diana_coman: jfw: fwiw you seem to want rock-solid under your foot (and preferably a few hundred meters of it downwards too) before you even step anywhere; assuming that's true, it's like everything else, it comes with its own set of advantages and disadvantages, not a "wrong" or a "right" thing.
jfw: yes I am very much of a 'look before you leap' tendency.
diana_coman: dorion: yo, did you go silent?
dorion: diana_coman sure. the founder of Coinapult, ira miller, who I think owned the bearbones key (Coinapult used GPG, but the WoT wasn't taught/encouraged) and tardstalk account, spun off a development/consulting company and hired me.
dorion: this lead to me doing some actual development, but through developing a relationship with jfw and my own study, I saw at the technical level his duct tape approach.
dorion: a contact here planted the seed about starting a btc/fiat brokerage, from which I recruited jfw.
diana_coman: dorion: 10 minutes from q to answer though does not a conversation make; so we'll continue tomorrow or Friday evening; write it down too when you get your blog up.
dorion: diana_coman my apologies, will work on cutting down latency.