jfw: Back from the mines - wherein I'm teaching some computing noobs how to operate civilized machines. Five weeks ago they didn't know 'ls' from 'cd', now they've configured tty baudrates and compiled their first kernel.
jfw: It gives me some perspective as to, yes, you gotta do as teacher says: because if not, for example, you're liable to get lost in the jungle of premature lines of inquiry
jfw: I'm glad to be doing this as opposed to, say, "making apps" to keep dumbasses dumb; but it's still saltmining in the sense that it's for pay and I'd rather be... here
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-14#1006276 - while this is part of it, I don't want to hide behind it like "oh, just the way I am, no further exploration possible"
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-14 14:26:17 jfw: diana_coman: okay... I am pretty introverted, I've long found it takes me time to 'open up'. Let me check re log.
jfw: I think there's some subconscious 'towards-purposing' in it: that I want people to like me and thus worry too much about what I say, with obvious result that they don't know what to think. I'd like to believe I'm an inner-directed type who doesn't care, but can't deny that I do, at least for SOME people - including diana_coman
jfw: For example I had a chat with shryser the other day, who's just as much if not more of a stranger, and didn't have trouble being open. "Because I didn't care nearly as much" - seems to fit.
jfw: *I didn't have trouble
jfw: whereas upon http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002507 , what went through my head was "eek, I'm messing up already!"
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-14 05:03:13 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002492 - if by "build system" you mean autoconf and make and all that shit, uhm; if you want to do something useful in this direction of builds, you should install cuntoo
jfw: (and to revisit the content of the above - yes, my object was to find a version most amenable to ripping out the autoconf; which I've deferred figuring that having SOME working blog, even if by mystery package manager, is better than none.)
jfw: With his gracious permission I've blogged the aforementioned shrysr chat. Off to bed shortly.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: re address for the mirror, after a bit of thinking, I can't quite see the reason to vhost and whatevers; it is what it is, namely a ftp mirror, so I enabled anonymous read-only on it as the most logical approach really.
diana_coman: for anyone interested, it's directly accessible via either url or IP ftp://logs.ossasepia.com or ftp://185.163.46.29/
diana_coman: asciilifeform: for that matter perhaps it makes sense to mirror vpatches there too.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-14#1006282 - heh, how long until they register a key and find their way in here?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-14 21:00:32 jfw: Back from the mines - wherein I'm teaching some computing noobs how to operate civilized machines. Five weeks ago they didn't know 'ls' from 'cd', now they've configured tty baudrates and compiled their first kernel.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-14#1006283 - and more generally because *they make better choices* than you; that's the very meaning of choosing them and of submitting *to them personally*: not some "perfection" but simply the fact that they are *better* than your current self.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-14 21:02:27 jfw: It gives me some perspective as to, yes, you gotta do as teacher says: because if not, for example, you're liable to get lost in the jungle of premature lines of inquiry
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-14#1006287 - aha; note however: 1. the fact that you care about *selected* people is a *good thing* really and it actually helps you to grow too but 2. the stupid part is precisely choosing to hide (aka protect your stupidity) yourself when interacting precisely with those whose opinion you value - it should be *exactly* the opposite, namely being
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-14 21:15:58 jfw: I think there's some subconscious 'towards-purposing' in it: that I want people to like me and thus worry too much about what I say, with obvious result that they don't know what to think. I'd like to believe I'm an inner-directed type who doesn't care, but can't deny that I do, at least for SOME people - including diana_coman
diana_coman: more open with them than with random people, because you'll get way more useful feedback whether positive or negative
diana_coman: shrysr: btw the above is totally valid for you too.
diana_coman: jfw: one part of it is indeed "don't act towards a purpose" ; another part is knowing knowing what feelings are really useful for
diana_coman: and now ofc my blog is still offline grrrrr.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-14#1006290 - esp here, being a learning place, messing ups are not exactly surprising, quite on the contrary; the important thing is what you do in response to it (and silence is a stupid - though common because easiest - response to it)
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-14 21:24:06 jfw: whereas upon http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002507 , what went through my head was "eek, I'm messing up already!"
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-14#1006292 - this is very sane.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-14 21:29:37 jfw: (and to revisit the content of the above - yes, my object was to find a version most amenable to ripping out the autoconf; which I've deferred figuring that having SOME working blog, even if by mystery package manager, is better than none.)
diana_coman: re silence, from the logs
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-03 18:14:57 diana_coman: linking also to http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000533 and just in case my http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000536 wasn't clear enough, understand this: the failure mode is when you do not engage/keep silent/do not expose whatever problems/troubles you might have; it's never nor can it be the problems/defects themselves!
whaack: gm diana_coman. I am starting my work doing background reading on V. The majority of links on ben_vulpes's site under the category "What else has been written on the topic?" are dead. Most of the links point to the realbitcoin.org, which throws a Forbidden page for all of them.
diana_coman: whaack: that would be the foundation's mailing list so I pinged mod6 on it to see what's going on there; you can always check archive.is as well, just in case; other than that though, do be aware that some of those links may be outdated and that working V versions are available otherwise from their authors' website (.py is asciilifeform's)
whaack: Okay. I believe the broken link that is important is mp's Ode to V.
diana_coman: whaack: it's clearly something that got recently messed up on therealbitcoin.org and will likely get easily fixed when mod6 sees the ping on it
whaack: okay ty for pinging him
diana_coman: whaack: you might find useful esthlos' report on V implementation in Lisp, as he discusses some details
diana_coman: just make sure not to make same mistakes at least, lol
whaack: thanks that is a useful link i'd seen before but had forgotten about. i don't know what mistakes you're referring to yet but perhaps i will discover when i read esthlos's post
diana_coman: whaack: that was his first attempt at/with V so the code in there still has some problems; see the trackbacks at his post.
whaack: kk
whaack: diana_coman: Is this where I should be getting my v.py ? http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=vpy&search= I saw from a comment thread that you host a v.py http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898387 but the starter_v on younghands is v.pl
diana_coman: whaack: that works, yes; it's using vtools too, so all good.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: in other lulz, ~nao~ the sad bmore dc wants to talk.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'ma keep it warm in case today's is somehow defective.
whaack: diana_coman: is it appropriate/to your liking for me to address you as 'my master diana_coman' in a post? I ask because it feels dishonest to say 'diana_coman has assigned me.." instead of 'my master diana_coman has assigned me..' and i've dwelt on this wording for a bit.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Before it gets lost, it doesn't seem like I had to invoke any special magic to get the permalink redirect magic working. Once the stack started clicking together and singing, the permalinks just worked. After some errands and fulfilling some customer requests, I'll get my recipe published.
diana_coman: whaack: historically speaking, teachers were "Master of X" really so yes, "my Master has assigned me this" works fine, specifying name "my Master, diana_coman, assigned" also works fine, sure.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: good to hear it and publishing the recipe will certainly be useful, yes.
whaack: ok ty. i have two preliminary posts on my study of V coming out of the oven soon.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: how's the job hunting going or how are you otherwise?
whaack: i found a concrete example of why i was wrong in thinking v does not need to check the hashes of the output files
whaack: ^ while pressing
diana_coman: whaack: heh, sounds like time well spent then; and yes, document what you did and what you've learnt.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: So far I've been too busy with the cleanup and firefighting to give it an intense look. Guy who handles the bulk of my local fiat/Bitcoin interactions said he is inquiring along some lines locally and may make some introductions.
BingoBoingo: May also give the English teaching thing a go. My library master's degree isn't a teaching degree, but it did come from Mizzou's "College of Education". That would give something to do while eating less coin during a search for something longer term.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: all right; fwiw I fully appreciate your salvaging of hardware and data + the work to help people recover/get back online and if I didn't say anything so far is just because I knew you were busy and focused on this; but if there's any help you need, just speak up.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: I know people who went around the world teaching English on the simple basis of having a passport from an English-speaking country really so I'd say it should certainly work.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: Thank you. I may take you up on that offer.
whaack: diana_coman. posted. i am also organizing links to updated V learning material here http://ztkfg.com/2019/10/v-study-reference-links/ as ben_vulpes did for use of anyone reading the logs and studying V.
whaack: be back in a bit.
diana_coman: whaack: nice; and yes, I'd much rather salvage what is still useful from ben's stuff because he's anyway lost at sea so there isn't even any guarantee that the content will still be up tomorrow or anything.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: The one reservation about English teaching is that the initial pay in the local market almost certainly will not be great. The other line of work introductions may be made for is a certain type of local agricultural non-profit (not rabbits) existing in a bubble-ish and rapidly changing marketplace whose prospects are less than enthusing.
diana_coman: whaack: your diff line goes wild all over the theme, lol
whaack: lol diana_coman i know. it is time to fix that bit of css that i ignored when reviving blog from fire
BingoBoingo: whaack: Feel free to take the CSS off of my blog and cut it to a shape that pleases you. I'd recommong against doing the same with Qntra's CSS since I had to trim it quite a bit to work with mp-wp
whaack: bingoboingo: ty will consider
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: ugh @ local non-profit whatevers; the best still is to start mailing isps really
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-10-09 mp_en_viaje: can also be frank with them, "look, i came to uy to get isp going, worked ok for 3 years, dc died from under us, i got a girl and must relocate asap"
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: That is still the preferred route. I am uncertain there are enough ISPs with brains left to get much interest in that pitch and thus am considering backup options.
BingoBoingo: But yes, did talk this over with the girl and she's portable.
thimbronion: diana_coman: somewhat interesting talk just now on DALnet with Ahnberg in #ahnberg. I'm currently stuck as to where to go next: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Ny_q
diana_coman: thimbronion: we would move away from freenode once we have a working server on a different network, so that should take care of their "active here"
diana_coman: ask them what does "care about dalnet" mean
diana_coman: because on the face of it, it means precisely nothing; contributing servers IS caring, isn't it?
thimbronion: diana_coman: will do. that is unclear.
thimbronion: right.
diana_coman: so yes, we "care" about dalnet in that we want to contribute a server to it and take active part in its admin
diana_coman: very caring, aren't we
diana_coman: I need to go atm but I'll be back later
diana_coman: before I go: we want to "care" - now, what exactly do they have there that is worth we give a damn about?
diana_coman: lolz
diana_coman will bbl
asciilifeform: diana_coman: meanwhile asciilifeform set up dulap-gentoo on usb drive, but apparently, grrr, these require additional magicks to become bootable (will look into dox to find which)
asciilifeform: ( idea was, to dispense w/ the heathen booter and put whole kit on 1 disk image that can be distributed, plus scripts to semi-automate the install )
diana_coman: whaack: foundation mailing list archive is accessible now
ossabot: (trilema) 2019-10-15 mod6: Alright, I've got the ML archives back up. http://thebitcoin.foundation/ml/ and http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/
whaack: great, i'll update my post to include links from there shortly
diana_coman: whaack: "Creating source using V is done by taking a sequentially applying a set of vpatches. " - this doesn't even parse; do *re-read* your own text before pushing that publish button.
shrysr: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006304 << ack. It's significantly harder to get appropriate advice/feedback without presenting the problem fully to *anybody*, let alone a person whose opinion I value. fwiw: If I wanted to open maself - I cannot see a reason to do it w/some random person over a person whose opinion is valued.. unless perhaps nobodyz opinion is valued.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 06:33:55 diana_coman: shrysr: btw the above is totally valid for you too.
diana_coman: gah, it's not even the only word-salad in there; /me can't read it and will stop; whaack fix it first for basic grammar.
diana_coman: shrysr: what are you trying to say there?
whaack: diana_coman: okay, is it alright if i edit the original post?
diana_coman: whaack: yes, proofreading it's called.
shrysr: diana_coman: i'm saying I agree with you that i cannot expect to recv advice that actually works for my problem by hiding parts of the problem, which like you said can encapsulate my stupidity. And that - if i wanted any feedback of value, (which i can obtain by presenting the problem fully) - i cant see how it could be better to go to a random person when i have access to a person whose opinion i value.
diana_coman: shrysr: way clearer stated this way! there was one more important part to the original point though: it's not only about receiving advice but generally about interacting with someone whose opinion matters for you - it's *because* you value their opinion that you should open up to them more, as simple as that.
diana_coman: jfw: what happened to free tomorrow?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-14 14:33:27 jfw: Gotta head to saltmine shortly but I'll be free tomorrow.
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006297 - gpg, networking and irc setup should be covered within a month; as for what they do with it, I don't think I'm in a position to decide, but I'll tell 'em you asked
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 06:21:22 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-14#1006282 - heh, how long until they register a key and find their way in here?
jfw: oh hey, here I am.
diana_coman: ha
diana_coman: suspiciously synchronised!
shrysr: lol
diana_coman: jfw: who are those you are teaching there anyway?
jfw: Some people I met locally; not sure how much more it's ok to say here.
diana_coman: jfw: I meant as in age/how did you find them, this sort of thing; not asking for their ids as they don't have any, in real terms
jfw: heh, ok. About my age (I'm 29)
diana_coman: jfw: to ask it a different way: what exactly is your business/what are you doing in panama anyway?
jfw: Original idea of the business was to do btc/fiat brokerage, "done right" as in GPG API, TRB and so forth. The connections to do that didn't work out, but since I'd been working on hardware/software security, we've focused on selling that / training.
diana_coman: fwiw panama has a rather negative reputation really as in "tends to be liked by idiots and disliked by non-idiots"; I suppose it works as a basic example of wot-use too, lolz
jfw: The business is with a friend I met in Panama, who assures me he'll be dropping in here soon. I came originally in 2013, just to get established somewhere non-US and it had easy-ish residence and favorable taxes for my situation at the time.
diana_coman: jfw: do you have panama citizenship now/
jfw: It has its annoyances, sure, but more or less lights stay on, shelves are stocked with at least something, can't complain too much.
jfw: No, but believe I'm now eligible to apply
diana_coman: every place has its annoyances, that is a given; the whole question is about the degree to which the specific set of local annoyances for one place or another stands in the way of the sort of things you want to do.
jfw: What do you mean about "basic example of wot-use"?
diana_coman: jfw: panama, although not in the wot as it's not a person, still has some informal "ratings" via "who lives/likes it there and who doesn't"; some positives and some negatives but *who* maintains it as positive matters as much as the positive itself.
diana_coman: precisely as any wot works and illustrating exactly the sort of thing most newcomers seem to have trouble with,
diana_coman: with.
diana_coman: (and who maintains it as negative matters just as much, ofc.)
jfw: I see. Indeed, the king of a barren rock would sing the praises of his rock, which wouldn't necessarily mean much for anyone else
diana_coman: not only that; but there are literally people whose "this is great" aka positive rating counts as a big fat negative for me, lol
diana_coman: jfw: are you even familiar with bitbet?
jfw: yeah
diana_coman: jfw: so what's the link with panama?
jfw: like whose rating got me here?
diana_coman: jfw: no, what's the link between bitbet and panama, lol
jfw: oh... wasn't aware of one, though there's legal gambling here
diana_coman: jfw: eh, voorhes sang panama's praises at some point; it's all history and not the best way to spend your time atm really; I thought you were familiar with it because you said yes earlier, that's all.
jfw: ah, voorhees I know of. Was he in the Berkshire bet?
diana_coman: not that I recall though I didn't follow the Berkshire bet specifically all that close
BingoBoingo: Voorhees was Satoshi Dice
jfw: SatoshiDice, http://trilema.com/2014/interacting-with-fiat-institutions-a-guide/ and Coinapult are the main things I know about him.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: ah, right; why the fuck do I keep mixing bitbet with satoshidice in my head
diana_coman: jfw: yes, satoshidice, sorry for the confusion there.
BingoBoingo: Well good chunk of both their runs overlapped
jfw: He moved back to the US some years ago as I understand, so dunno if he's updated his rating of Panama, heh
diana_coman: I can't say I care really.
jfw: On the stupidity of hiding stupidity: makes sense, and I'll try to not do that, much as the stupidity will surely object.
diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too?
BingoBoingo: Re: panama, hanbot has a piece http://thewhet.net/2018/04/panama-makes-me-ill/
jfw: heh, I saw that yes.
diana_coman: that'd be a negative rating from a person whose rating carries quite the weight, yes
jfw: There are garbage problems because 1) they mostly haven't invented dumpsters yet and 2) unionized I believe. Possibly 1 is because of 2.
BingoBoingo: Here they have dumpsters and still trash issues
jfw: "what, you mean I'm supposed to put the trash *in* the dumpster"?
diana_coman: lolz; it's ok, you have another training opportunity there :D
BingoBoingo: Nah, that happens more or less. The problem is pichis taking trash out of dumpsters
BingoBoingo: "Recollectors"
BingoBoingo: There's these nice dumpsters that don't catch on fire all that often and... anything that might have any value at all gets dug out.
jfw: mm, yeah pretty sure we have those too
jfw: "we" lol, I better be careful
BingoBoingo: "Protestors" will also empty dumpsters when their candidate/team/etc loses
BingoBoingo: Anyways, '12 year night' nice cathartic film to watch up until the last act.
diana_coman: jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-15#1006423 was in part re http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-14#1006252 because I gather you still want to finish getting fully up to date with the logs but atm there's no eta on that.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-15 17:46:43 diana_coman: jfw: how much of your time is the teaching/training eating? or do you do other stuff too?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-14 13:44:21 jfw: diana_coman: technically less than 2 months (of log to get through) as I've followed since Sep 14, but your point stands. I'm at a loss re plan, logically I gotta either get more efficient or make more time. I have improved on both so far, fwiw. I'll try to come up with something more concrete.
jfw: oh yeah whoops, was digging on that. It's something like 25h/week in the preparation, transit & lessons. Anyway, I'd indeed like to finish the full readthrough but don't think it's a prerequisite of deciding
diana_coman: jfw: hm, that would logically leave more than 9 work-hours available per week though even at 8h*5days employee-mode.
diana_coman: anyways, I'll be back tomorrow.
jfw: Preparing for potential business takes time too, as does planning/reflecting. Last two weeks blog setup and re-setup took time as I mentioned. And there's current log reading. I'm sure I'm not as efficient as I could be, but there's no "20 hours a week watching netflix" or anything I can obviously cut.
whaack: diana_coman: I fixed the obvious errors in my post and restructured the post a bit as well.
jfw: Something's been persistently bugging me about my last line there. I think it's that I was unnecessarily defensive: perhaps diana_coman had not jumped to the conclusion of "that jfw is a lazy bum" as I seem to have assumed, or there was a simple misunderstanding