gregorynyssa: thimbronion: I sent some messages to your Pest station but they are not going through.
gregorynyssa: thimbronion: did you set my username to: gregorynyssa
gregorynyssa: thimbronion: if the messages come from a different address/port, does your station update the address/port within its records?
gregorynyssa: thimbronion: or does it reject the message?
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: when the red packet is encrypted using CBC, is the initialization-vector an array of sixteen zero-bytes?
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: also, could you send me your peering details?
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: as mentioned above to "thimbronion," my username is: gregorynyssa
thimbronion: gregorynyssa: yes that is the handle I have set for you
thimbronion: gregorynyssa: I currently have no address configured for you, but it should update automatically upon receipt of a packet from your station.
gregorynyssa: thimbronion: does the log at http://share.alethepedia.com/blatta/logs/current show Martian and stale packets which are received?
gregorynyssa: thimbronion: I tried to send some more packets to you just now.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-21 05:25:11 gregorynyssa: thimbronion: if the messages come from a different address/port, does your station update the address/port within its records?
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-21 05:29:56 gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: when the red packet is encrypted using CBC, is the initialization-vector an array of sixteen zero-bytes?
thimbronion: gregorynyssa: it should but there's a lot of GETDATA spam from crtdaydream's smalpest client
jonsykkel: why hasnt somone writen a lisp to ada translator so u dont have to write that retarded syntax and also get macros and shit
jonsykkel: or rather, ass-expression to ada
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: leaving aside the lulz re translators -- what concretely do you find barfy re ada syntax ?
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: it aint using sexprs + macros for a reason. wasn't built w/ objective of 'minimize # of letters on page' but for extreme obviousness of what $routine does to a reader on 1st pass
jonsykkel: asciilifeform: too much visual noise, function to add a+b is 200lines, gotta duplicate function names and other stuff everywhere
jonsykkel: its a pain to read
jonsykkel: indeed but it has the opposite effect imo
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: take e.g. this. really, pain to read ?
jonsykkel: not the worst example
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: point to where pain to read in yer lights
jonsykkel: nowhere in specific, just takes more letters than necessary to express nearly anything
asciilifeform will point out that n00bs almost invariably find sexprs pain to read, until practiced
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: show concretely where you'd like 'fewer letters' in there
asciilifeform: ( and w/out losing any lang features, e.g. subtypes )
jonsykkel: use brackets of some sort instead of begin/end
jonsykkel: and just ) isntead of "end loop"
asciilifeform: so jonsykkel's objection is strictly 'not sexpr' eh
asciilifeform: {} is imho retarded, makes trivial to write ambiguous soup
jonsykkel: not really, but that function could be 10lines instead of 58
asciilifeform considers the pascalistic begins/ends moar readable than for(..){.. soup
asciilifeform: as did the ada authors, evidently.
jonsykkel: wel, i htink with any syntax you end up interpreting by the indentation anyway
asciilifeform: rright but c aficionados chronically abuse indentation
jonsykkel: so begin/end is just more unneccesary symbols to ignore
jonsykkel: c avocados do lots of stupid shit indeed, one can just not imitate
asciilifeform: down the path of 'plz fewer letters on screen and errything in 1ln!' lies perlism
jonsykkel: perl makes mistake of making shortcuts for shit u use once a year
jonsykkel: is a diffrent story for brackets
asciilifeform: jonsykkel would prolly like apl
jonsykkel: hehe, messed around with it a bit couple of weeks ago
jonsykkel: smart stuf
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: I don't see the answer to my question in the section about red packets.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: '16 bytes of garbage, exclusively for use as cipher nonce; obtained from a hardware TRNG where possible. This value is not used for any purpose following decryption.'
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: where didja get yer notion re 16 zeros ?
asciilifeform suspects that gregorynyssa's confusion stems from having worked w/ aes , where there is an explicit init vector. in serpent, there aint one. the 'nonce' referred to in pest spec simply sits down as the 1st 16byte block.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: the way that CBC was explained to me, you have a 16 byte buffer against which you XOR the first sixteen bytes of the plaintext.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: you are correct. I am thinking about how AES is done.
asciilifeform: aha, suspected
gregorynyssa: so XOR is not applied to the first 16 bytes of the plaintext?
gregorynyssa: but the second 16 bytes of the plaintext is XORed with the first 16 bytes of the ciphertext?
gregorynyssa: * are XORed
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: if yer looking at blatta src, it is confusing in this respect, thimbronion in fact pasted in an implementation 'serpent_cbc_encrypt/decrypt' that takes an 'iv' defaulting to 0 (and never sets it), but does start msg with the nonce per spec (so in fact works out logically to correct algo)
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: see in his 'serpent.py'.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the point of cbc is to prevent a situation where 2 identical plaintexts (or identical subsets thereof) end up as identical ciphertexts (or subsets thereof)
asciilifeform: a working rng will produce given string of 16 bytes a 2nd time some time after being hit by over9000 meteorites and sun burns out twice
asciilifeform must bbl
gregorynyssa: the encrypting function of Blatta and of my implementation produce the same output.
gregorynyssa: I ran them side-by-side jus tnow.
gregorynyssa: * just now
gregorynyssa: so it looks like encryption was not the source of the problem.
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: I would like to try to add your station as a peer.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1111934 << in my mind, the keyword-heavy languages represent a more classical worldview.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-21 13:54:03 asciilifeform: {} is imho retarded, makes trivial to write ambiguous soup
gregorynyssa: the curly-brace languages (and later, the indentation-sensitive languages) are Countercultural.
jonsykkel: not that readable either lol
jonsykkel: but u can at least determine in 0ns what is structure and what is not
jonsykkel: cuz evry line is not
jonsykkel: maybe problem can be "solved" by coloring "end *" lines almost invisible in editor
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: it aint that it's unreadable, as such. but sorta whole point of sexprs/homoiconicity is macros, 'code as data', etc. and these features are quite deliberately not in ada, where objective is 'utterly obvious what this does on 1st pass of eyes' rather than aesthetics or fewer-letters
asciilifeform doesn't see great win from somehow bolting sexpr notation to sumthing other than a lisp, it creates a strong expectation of lispiness where none exists (or wants to) and would frustrate, imho, greatly
asciilifeform: it aint so diff from, say, bolting the yoke from a cessna to yer toyota. it aint aboutta fly, and the added degree of freedom adds little but distraction
jonsykkel: indeed macroism was other half of the point
jonsykkel: i get the utterly obvious what code does by looking at it arg, but no macros in large progy invariably means writing same paterns over and over
jonsykkel: my toyota wont fly but it will go faster and be more comfy ride
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: jonsykkel: the Nim language is heavily imperative but has strong macro-support.
gregorynyssa: jonsykkel: are you running your own station? would you like to be peers with me?
jonsykkel: gregorynyssa: sure leme genkey
gregorynyssa: jonsykkel: I wish that I could have written a native implementation like yours, but programming without GC is too hard, so I used Java.
jonsykkel: gregorynyssa: cool, is readable anywhere?
gregorynyssa: jonsykkel: I will upload it later. "asciilifeform" can add the link to his blog-post if he wants.
jonsykkel: aight
jonsykkel: peering info ^
jonsykkel: nim doesnt sexpr, is it even posible to have proper macro wihtout it
jonsykkel: in case it was unclear upstack, idea was that u hav macros that execute as lisp but transform the ada ast rather than lisp ast
gregorynyssa: jonsykkel: if I send you a message, will it appear in the "pest" section of logs.nosuchlabs.com?
jonsykkel: gregorynyssa: should yes, since ur within pestradius of logger
gregorynyssa: jonsykkel: then it looks like my message did not go through. there is something wrong with the UDP section of the code.
jonsykkel: i saw your helloworld in my console
jonsykkel: but not in logs for som reason indeed
gregorynyssa: jonsykkel: oh, nice. we are making progress.
gregorynyssa: perhaps the logger ignores people who are not on a whitelist.
gregorynyssa: billymg: you are the author of the logger, is that right? can you confirm whether this is the case?
gregorynyssa: jonsykkel: homoiconism (S expressions) makes it easier to implement macros, but such is not required.
gregorynyssa: jonsykkel: all you need for a macro-system is the ability for a program to access its own abstract syntax-tree.
jonsykkel: true, but you get this https://nim-lang.org/docs/macros.html rather than "macro is same as function but returns ast that gets substituted for the macro invocation by compiler"
gregorynyssa: Rust might allow for finer-graind manipulation of the AST than Nim.
gregorynyssa: but I agree that macros without homoiconism are not elegant.
gregorynyssa: jonsykkel: asciilifeform: I divide programming languages into four categories based on syntax:
gregorynyssa: (1) the ALGOL family which is good at I/O
gregorynyssa: (2) the LISP family which is good at macros
gregorynyssa: (3) the ML family which is good at partial evaluation
gregorynyssa: (4) the APL family which has access to implicit iteration
gregorynyssa: these are four important features, but each suited to a particular syntax.
jonsykkel: is there a particular reason lisp family couldnt be good at io?
gregorynyssa: the LISP family is not bad at I/O, but the statement/expression distinction make sense in the context of side-effects.
gregorynyssa: also, ALGOL-like programs have a backbone of statements which avoids deep nesting.
gregorynyssa: LISP syntax is not conceived from the ground up with I/O in mind, as ALGOL-style syntax is.
jonsykkel: lisp does force you to code in diagonal right-down direction
gregorynyssa: yep. the right-down motion is a major inconvenience IMO.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-21 20:38:14 gregorynyssa: perhaps the logger ignores people who are not on a whitelist.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1111980 << rather curious which 'over and over patterns' appear concretely in ffa and annoy jonsykkel
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-21 19:57:26 jonsykkel: i get the utterly obvious what code does by looking at it arg, but no macros in large progy invariably means writing same paterns over and over
asciilifeform: and also curious whether jonsykkel at least abstractly grasps the tension b/w macrology and 'obv. to eyes on 1st pass'
jonsykkel: ffa isnt large progy in my bok, wasnt talking about it specifically, and found no such paterns in it
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: so lol then, objection is re some abstract adaism sumwhere unspecifiedly else ?
jonsykkel: im thinking in context of very large progys that i plan to write
asciilifeform: jonsykkel: asciilifeform suspects that when you go and write 'very large program', suddenly 'readable on 1st pass' will start to seem like a win. esp. say 6mo later
jonsykkel: i understand macroing makes code less readable but it also makes less code to read which makes exponential difrence in large progy
jonsykkel: or, "less directly runnable in head" rather than "less readable"
asciilifeform: depends muchly on the proggy
jonsykkel: ive writen very large progys in c and ran into limit inherent to lack of macro
asciilifeform: jonsykkel not fond of c macrology ?
jonsykkel: lol
gregorynyssa: asciilifeform: it is rather hard to write a C macro which does not have invalid corner-cases.
asciilifeform: noshit
gregorynyssa: I always wondered, why has no one created a version of C with AST-based macros,
gregorynyssa: or for that matter, a version of C which has sum-types.
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: 'lipstick on sow'
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1112030 << some people strongly advocate the use of ML-style modules/functors to solve this problem.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-21 22:15:50 jonsykkel: ive writen very large progys in c and ran into limit inherent to lack of macro
gregorynyssa: do you have any experience with modules/functors?
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: asciilifeform consults for a co where this. has own problems.
jonsykkel: no idea wat those are
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-21 22:32:15 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: asciilifeform consults for a co where this. has own problems.
jonsykkel: i will look into
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1112042 << never used them myself. I only read them from books such as Robin Milner's.
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-21 22:32:19 jonsykkel: no idea wat those are
asciilifeform: all kindsa things seem over9000 appealing until you find yerself actually using'em
gregorynyssa: so are you using ML at work?
asciilifeform: ( or, conversely, also there exist things which seem revolting until try using and then see why the builder did it. e.g. ada )
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: not ml per se, but an in-house 'ml-esque' concoction
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-21#1112050 << Ada isn't surprising to anyone familiar with the Dijkstra/Wirth school of thought
dulapbot: Logged on 2022-07-21 22:33:43 asciilifeform: ( or, conversely, also there exist things which seem revolting until try using and then see why the builder did it. e.g. ada )
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: rright but you have folx (incl. asciilifeform circa '15) who 'ugh verbose, fucking bureaucrats, where are my {{{}}}'
asciilifeform: then at some pt see what the 'verbose' actually solves and what the 'useless' lang features actually do
vex: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-21#1010265 <i've done some of this, hanging off a ladder with a 14 inch diamond blade with all the newton metres. remediating the action of time in old stonework by gluing in high tensile helical rod. works a treat
bitbot: (pest) 2022-07-21 phf[awt]: *victorian
vex: remoulding old ceilings, good fun
vex: gotta get em cheap tho, dress down for the auction and get good and drunk
vex: I can just imagine alfies rusted up f150 with the crane screeching up late. "winning bid"!
vex: I'll come along
vex: I can't really scowl, but the other bidders might be confused by my idiotic grin
vex: wait, i've missed the point. a victorian homestead in the applecacians isn't sydney
vex rexperiences the dream where he had to drive to sweden.
vex: I prefer to be at sea level. I don't trust anyoneelks