asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 12 nodes...
watchglass: 108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.095s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.115s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.143s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.150s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.158s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.198s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.225s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583
watchglass: 176.9.59.199:8333 : (static.199.59.9.176.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.274s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=235865 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.334s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583
watchglass: 188.121.168.69:8333 : (rev-188-121-168-69.radiolan.sk) Alive: (0.324s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.537s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640583
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ran into this forum thread by accident. found lulzy how hn-type scum react to e.g. ada the way archaetypical vampire reacts to garlic.
asciilifeform: ( see also oblig. naggum. )
asciilifeform: for the l0gz, will preserve this lul : (some vermin, in response to verisimilitude's 'tried ada') : 'this is just larping though, I suspect most activities that you do can be glued together with a bunch of shell scripts, with roughly as much reliability requirements.'
asciilifeform: ftr in ru world this is sometimes called 'reverse cargo cult'. i.e. 'there are no actual airplanes, white man makes his also from straw and sticks, but he is simply pretentious, ours are exactly as good'
asciilifeform discovered many yrs ago that you can 'troll' the vermin simply by writing fits-in-head proggies that actually work and use 0 'trend' garbage. even if not accompanied by any human-readable political statement. is why even sumthing like trb will ~never be mentioned in the heathen pits (in any context other than 'them terrorists..')
asciilifeform: ( see also. )
snsabot: (trilema) 2016-06-01 a111: Logged on 2014-06-11 00:49 asciilifeform: 'My Navrozov moment, of course, was when I approached one of the two - Sacco, I think - and attempted to have an intellectual discussion of this realization. The story is basically the same as Navrozov's, so it would be boring to repeat, but basically I came away with the feeling that I'd told someone his Sicilian grandmother liked to get drunk and fuck her own goats.'
asciilifeform: simple, correct proggy that actually solves a specified problem -- is approx. as welcome in 'programming community' as a jar of hg would be at airport.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: this is why you can be as 'polite' as you like in the heathen pits, but still guaranteed to be banned. ( see also . )
asciilifeform: nor will it make any detectable diff. if all yer proggies are explicitly marked as 'toys'. ( today just as 2000 y. ago. )
verisimilitude: I'm unable to access the archive link, asciilifeform.
verisimilitude: That concept of a ``reverse cargo cult'' is amusing, and I'm glad to now have a name for it.
verisimilitude: It may be found amusing that, when describing some of my SHA implementing to another, I received amazement at ``rolling my own crypto''.
verisimilitude: I once had a conversation, longer back, about how burdensome current machines make it to account for all failure cases, to be told roughly ``Who wants to write a program that works correctly in all instances?'' by a proud C programmer.
verisimilitude: I don't see that forum as filled with ``hn-type scum'', although it was unfortunately mentioned on those websites a few months back. I've received plenty of criticism with those latest posts, and yet so little of it deals with my actual work, which is just boring.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: link was simply that board thing
asciilifeform will have to find (or bake) a replacement for that archive www, verisimilitude aint the 1st to report that it dun load from his locale
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-24 17:24:58 verisimilitude: I once had a conversation, longer back, about how burdensome current machines make it to account for all failure cases, to be told roughly ``Who wants to write a program that works correctly in all instances?'' by a proud C programmer.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-24#1017075 << a lifelong c victim will naturally say thing -- it would never occur to him to even attempt to write such a program, it being a doomed and largely thankless exercise.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-24 17:24:58 verisimilitude: I once had a conversation, longer back, about how burdensome current machines make it to account for all failure cases, to be told roughly ``Who wants to write a program that works correctly in all instances?'' by a proud C programmer.
verisimilitude: Oh, that was actually one of my guesses as to what it was. Yes, any independent thought is shunned there, no matter how well-reasoned.
verisimilitude: It's not visible, since it received too many negative Internet points, but on that ``RISC is Fundamentally Unscalable'' thread, I located a PDF, I believe from one of the fellows mentioned, and quoted the paragraphs describing how they dumbed-down the machine to suite C, but this was ``downvoted'' for being ``incorrect'' or some nonsense.
asciilifeform: he'll still get in a boeing tho, and never think re what runs in it.
verisimilitude: These people like to treat computing has their secret magic club, but then get pissy when the infrastructure they don't understand fails, yes.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there are no cisc machines on market, and haven't been since 1990 or so . ( all that there is, is 'risc w/ complicated microcode to resemble cisc externally' and 'risc w/ smaller microcode' )
verisimilitude: I reject that ``This CISC is RISC internally, so it's RISC.'' nonsense.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: elaborate ?
verisimilitude: I'll repeat a brief rant about how RISC and CISC is no different than UNIX and the WWW.
verisimilitude: RISC is paraded around by idiots, who will apply the label to anything and everything (A machine with hundreds of instructions is ``reduced'', yet somehow the machines with mere dozens are also.), and the term is simultaneously made meaningless by those same idiots who parade around every other architecture as having fallen to it (Intel is just RISC on the inside, which makes it RISC, which means RISC won!); they're a disgusting cult.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: before you do, what's your preferred example for archaetypical cisc box ?
verisimilitude: Unfortunately, I'm still far too ignorant of the high-level machines to give much of an opinion on any particular one, asciilifeform. I think MIX and CHIP-8 are nice little architectures.
asciilifeform incidentally readily agrees that e.g. arm7/8 is 'risc w/ cancer' rather than a by-design cisc
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: classic example of 'cisc', if you'll allow, is the m68k
asciilifeform: was 'comfortable chair' for the asm programmer.
verisimilitude: It takes a leap to go from ``Does complex operations in one instruction.'' to ``The machine does more than shuffle bits, but has a true conception of higher-level structure.''.
asciilifeform: fwiw e.g. the lispms were not marketed as 'risc' or 'cisc', they largely escaped the whole wank to begin with
verisimilitude: I'm vaguely familiar with the SECD machine, but still don't know much about its competition, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: afaik no secd-like iron was ever sold commercially.
verisimilitude: Sure, it's made-up, just like other differences the cult fosters.
verisimilitude: I think comparing UNIX to the WWW to RISC reveals a more insidious pattern, although those three are connected by the same class of idiots.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the entire 'debate' was an artifact of 1980s 'micro wars.' the argument of 'risc' proponents was 'no one will write in asm, so let's dispense with most instructions to make easier pipeline mechanics'
asciilifeform: most of this war was fought and won/lost before wwwism, and before even final 'victory' of unixism
asciilifeform: in '70s, s. cray noticed that most of a typical (of the time) cost-no-object machine was , at any given moment, unused -- i.e. ALU is waiting on the memory, or on I/O, etc. and conceived of 'pipeline' and 'superscalarism', methods to actually reorder (sub)instructions so as to ~fully occupy the expensive iron. a nearly identical idea was published in su, incidentally, in '60s.
asciilifeform: this is mechanically difficult (and the req'd mechanism itself occupies great many gates) when 100s of instrs. so various designers experimented w/ paring down the set of operations ( and cutting down state that glues instrs. into given order, e.g. flags ) so as to make the reordering moar profitable.
asciilifeform: some designs went even 'more radical' than riscism, e.g. intel's 'itanium' (aka 'itanic'...) moar or less asked the programmer to directly input horiz. microcode.
asciilifeform: ( verisimilitude -- is 'horiz. microcode' -- vs. e.g. 'vertical' - familiar item to you? i have nfi what sorta schooling you had )
asciilifeform: ... back to the 'war' -- the whole thing was arguably a contest re what kind of lipstick 'looks best' on the von neumann pig.
asciilifeform: in the end, the softs people went 'we dun giveafuck what's inside the pig so long as we can continue to fuck it the same way as before' and ended up w/ e.g. i586 which externally offers 1000+ instrs. while internally 'risc'y starvation-bare instr. set & pipes.
asciilifeform: 'arm' meanwhile started out w/ relatively small instr. set, but grew (and continues to grow) cancerously, rather like PL/I prog. lang. grew over 4 decades, where erry new 'give us a instr. that multiplies 3x3 matrices' turns into new instruction
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-24#1017102 << believe or not, they're actually disjoint sets of idiots . (the iron pushers work under different constraints, and much less often can get away w/ selling an item which simply doesn't work)
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-24 17:50:05 verisimilitude: I think comparing UNIX to the WWW to RISC reveals a more insidious pattern, although those three are connected by the same class of idiots.
verisimilitude: That's a fair objection, but the other two groups are certainly incestuous, if only in spirit.
verisimilitude: I've probably a vague, suitable understanding of the two microcode categories, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 'vertical' most folx are familiar with on some level -- 'heavy' instructions are internally represented as sequences of 'light' ones
asciilifeform: 'horizontal' is more complicated idea -- there, each bit in instr. actually toggles some circuit (e.g. connects ALU to bus, or instead connects memory to a register, or toggles a shifter, etc)
verisimilitude: Oh, then my understanding was perfectly correct.
asciilifeform: rather like the way fpga config worx
asciilifeform: ~all von neumann style irons have something that could be called horiz. microcode.
asciilifeform: ( in e.g. mips instrs, the instr. encodings more or less directly represent various toggles )
verisimilitude: On that note, now I'm comparing horizontal microcode to an idea I'd had for a machine, where the machine code itself was a set of higher toggles. This idea, as can be guessed, I consider a failure, but, in considering how such a machine code would be worked with, I'd the idea for my MMC.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: at the risk of making guess , sounds rather like fpga
asciilifeform: ( which is programmed simply by showing how to connect the crossbar switches to give the desired connections b/w flipflops, i/o, srams, etc )
asciilifeform: fpga can be said to be 'degenerate case' of horiz. microcode -- where there is large circuit, and ~only 1~ instruction, that executes on power-up.
asciilifeform: the weakness of fpga is that the flipflops etc. cannot ~physically~ move & rearrange to the desired circuit. so they continue to take up sq. metrage, eat current, and delay signals, even after you've decided what circuit you want outta'em.
asciilifeform: ( and you only get N -- usually rather small # -- of actual conductive bus lines, if you want more connections b/w physically non-adjacent items, you are stuck making'em outta the switching elements. hence, slow )
asciilifeform: see e.g. this illustration.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: i rec to get & read e.g. hennessy&patterson's b00k re cpu design -- the headaches/tradeoffs involved haven't actually changes since '70s.
asciilifeform: *changed
asciilifeform: very little has changed (even GHz switching elements were avail. in '70s -- ecl logic..) , and yes you can fit 1e10 of'em on a die nao, instead of 1e4, but signal still travels at ~2/3c b/w them, and they still eat current and melt themselves if not cooled etc.
verisimilitude: I've still yet to read Kogge P.M.'s book; but I'll keep that in mind as well, asciilifeform, and appreciate the suggestion.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: this is rather moar basic than kogge
asciilifeform: is about the very elementary principles of 'how the hell to arrange transistor to make something computerlike'
verisimilitude: I called that machine code 33554432, 2**25, because there were twenty-five toggles, and I'd no better name for the machine. I detail it in my 2017-06-06 article, but don't recommend reading that just yet, as I've been rewriting it; the current version reads as if schizophrenic ramblings, in comparison.
verisimilitude: Could I get the ISBN for that book, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: 978-8178672663 for 5th ed
verisimilitude: The current version to the new reads as if schizophrenic ramblings, to clarify.
verisimilitude: I appreciate it again, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: i actually rec. to get the oldest edition you can
asciilifeform: the newer ones are fulla 'modernisms'
verisimilitude: Should I aim for the oldest I could find?
asciilifeform: book got 4x thicker since 1st ed, but the field hasn't gone ~anywhere to go along w/ it
asciilifeform: aha
verisimilitude: I usually see what the local chain stores offer, which is a poor selection, but should I shun the newest entirely, if that's all I can get?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if yer interested in cpu design, and want to get at it from '1st principles', write a simple circuit sim in yer preferred interactive lang (e.g. cl). a la 'verilator'
asciilifeform: i.e. which takes list of gates, and 'netlist' (interconnection b/w them) and gives you voltage at erry point at time t
asciilifeform: ( alternatively, ordinary verilog + 'verilator' etc )
asciilifeform: there's actually a similar exercise in 1980s tutorial 'sicp'
asciilifeform: ... then you postulate that the gates have fixed physical positions, and interconnects have physical length; and you get something close to the actual picture that builders of physical cpu have to live with.
verisimilitude: Well, I've already a decently vague understanding of this, if from none other than the book in my 2019-11-15 article.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: h and p 3rd ed. if you want.
verisimilitude: Oh, I'd never publicly admit to illegally downloading a book, asciilifeform, but I appreciate the link.
asciilifeform: lolk
asciilifeform: anyways best way to go from 'vague understand' to 'understand' is to actually bake a simple sim w/ own hands and experiment.
asciilifeform must bbl.
verisimilitude: Be well, asciilifeform.
trinque: asciilifeform: for whenever you return, am I crazy or is it System.OS_Constants rather than Os_Constants http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=RY7E
trinque: I have no idea what in this shitpile is downcasing it if so
feedbot: http://mvdstandard.net/2020/07/washington-post-joins-cnn-in-settling-teenagers-defamation-suit/ << The Montevideo Standard -- Washington Post Joins CNN In Settling Teenager's Defamation Suit
asciilifeform: trinque: it aint case-mutilated, is legitimately as-printed (see ln. 45). but for sumreason yer gnat aint seeing System.* . either brokn paths, dud includes, or missing flag. what was being built (and w/ what ? ) ?
asciilifeform: ( for thread-completeness : complete snapshot of ave1's gnat in htmlized form, for further ref. )
trinque: building gnat, with self.
trinque: the gnat built from the host system works, but does this when it builds itself in the chroot. I must indeed have mangled paths somewhere.
trinque: and nice, thanks for the links.