thimbronion: asciilifeform: I added in some cacheing that should prevent repeated requests for the robots.txt file, but I need to let this run finish so sorry in advance for the log spam.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-18#1016686 << no truly exemplary platform exists, but pre-Unicode Tcl comes closest, I would say. have you tried that yet? the next closest competitors would be Forth and Smalltalk. all three of these languages are "not quite LISPs."
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-18 19:59:23 asciilifeform: trinque: for me, the big wake-up re 'there is NO reasonably clean script lang atm' was when wrote 'litmus' in what ( asciilifeform naively thought was ) pure 'sh'
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-18#1016681 << might I ask what you mean exactly by "dethompsonizing?" do you simply mean, the absence of self-hosting? (a reference to that lecture Reflections on Trusting Trust) searched the logs, but still not sure.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-18 19:55:54 asciilifeform: trinque: since you mentioned script langs: considering, after ffa, to attempt a 'dethompsonizing' simple gc-less scheme in asm, in style of 'M' as a scripting lang. can't speak for erryone, but i've wanted a <32kB scripting lang that 'compiles with bare hands' for many yrs.
trinque: no, he means one that doesn't require someone else's compiler to bootstrap.
trinque: in re: tcl, it's just another unix string-munging language. unix-string-munging is the whole of the problem with unix, so tcl goes right on the pyre with the rest of them.
trinque: why do I want a "not quite lisp" instead of a lisp?
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016709 << because Common Lisp is "bloated and unorthogonal" while Scheme is "minimal to the point of uselessness."
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 09:22:37 trinque: why do I want a "not quite lisp" instead of a lisp?
trinque: don't quote other people's opinions to me. python is also bloated and unorthogonal, and tcl is an even worse shit-bolted-to-the-side monster by now.
gregorynyssa: trinque: Tcl has cleaner semantics than Python, and is homoiconic. it has strong support for DSLs similar to the LISPs.
gregorynyssa: (since its syntax/semantics are cleaner, it has earned a reputation of very low inconsistency between platforms/implementations.)
trinque: wtf is this "it has earned a reputation" device you're using?
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016707 << thanks for the reply btw. I very much agree. I would like to build a language purely from the bedrock.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 09:17:13 trinque: no, he means one that doesn't require someone else's compiler to bootstrap.
trinque: 9 out of 10 doctors agree?
gregorynyssa: my point is, I consider its semantics in a different league from Python, Perl, PHP, Ruby...
trinque: when you offer up the thinking by which you so consider, I'll bother discussing it with you.
trinque: meanwhile deedbot and freenode don't seem to be getting along today
gregorynyssa: for instance, Tcl follows Smalltalk in not having control-structures. conditions and loops are just function-calls with delayed evaluation. that makes the semantics more concise.
trinque: why does that not bias you towards smalltalk rather than tcl?
gregorynyssa: I am a fan of both. however, Smalltalk has a heavier runtime.
gregorynyssa: (also, I said pre-Unicode; the 8.0+ especially 8.5+ versions of Tcl have somewhat betrayed the language's original promise of transparency, no argument there)
trinque: I'm skeptical of anything that bills itself as a "scripting language" and therefore it gets away with things like that uplevel directive, because it's "not real programming"
trinque: do I also understand correctly that tcl represents the result of every expression as a string?
trinque: magic variables, bleh!
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016726 << the "uplevel" primitive is a general way of allowing functions to choose whether they are pass-by-value or pass-by-reference. it enables other tricks as well, including, I believe, Scheme-like continuations.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 10:06:49 trinque: I'm skeptical of anything that bills itself as a "scripting language" and therefore it gets away with things like that uplevel directive, because it's "not real programming"
gregorynyssa: magic variables were a mistake. tcl_precision struck me as particularly inelegant.
gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016727 << before 8.5, everything was either: a string, a (nestable) list of strings, or a hashmap. lists of strings were encoded as strings (like JSON but simpler; the AST of every program itself was represented this way). a hashmap was a (one level) mapping from string to string. file-handles and sockets were represented as strings (such as "file1," "file2," ...) which were understood
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 10:08:10 trinque: do I also understand correctly that tcl represents the result of every expression as a string?
gregorynyssa: the language has first-class environments. you can construct arbitrary ASTs and environments/scopes at runtime, and eval any of them together.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016703 << i confess, still entirely stumped re what is appealing in tcl... ( as for smalltalk, iirc already commented; and as for forth, in fact wrote a forth... )
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 08:41:53 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-18#1016686 << no truly exemplary platform exists, but pre-Unicode Tcl comes closest, I would say. have you tried that yet? the next closest competitors would be Forth and Smalltalk. all three of these languages are "not quite LISPs."
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016707 << correct. recall the '80s comp. enthusiast magazines? where you ~typed in~ proggy in hex ? a proper script lang oughta be bootstrappable this way.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 09:17:13 trinque: no, he means one that doesn't require someone else's compiler to bootstrap.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016710 << the funny thing is, these are ~both~ fixable...
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 09:24:20 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016709 << because Common Lisp is "bloated and unorthogonal" while Scheme is "minimal to the point of uselessness."
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016722 << imho this kinda thing (in other threads i referred to it as 'haskellism') is a sin.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 09:36:47 gregorynyssa: for instance, Tcl follows Smalltalk in not having control-structures. conditions and loops are just function-calls with delayed evaluation. that makes the semantics more concise.
asciilifeform: recall t. edison's last biz venture ? chances are you don't: he sold cement furniture. 'clean, concise'...
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 10:44:13 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016726 << the "uplevel" primitive is a general way of allowing functions to choose whether they are pass-by-value or pass-by-reference. it enables other tricks as well, including, I believe, Scheme-like continuations.
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016732 << this is supposed to be appealing ?! where ~any nontrivial proggy will run in geological time ?
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 10:59:36 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016727 << before 8.5, everything was either: a string, a (nestable) list of strings, or a hashmap. lists of strings were encoded as strings (like JSON but simpler; the AST of every program itself was represented this way). a hashmap was a (one level) mapping from string to string. file-handles and sockets were represented as strings (such as "file1," "file2," ...) which were understood
asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: outta curiosity -- didja ever actually program in that horror, or simply find appealing in theory ?
asciilifeform: !w poll
watchglass: Polling 12 nodes...
watchglass: 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.083s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639901
watchglass: 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639901 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.082s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639901
watchglass: 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639901
watchglass: 108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.158s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639901 (Operator: asciilifeform)
watchglass: 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.141s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639901
watchglass: 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.161s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639901
watchglass: 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.234s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639901
watchglass: 176.9.59.199:8333 : (static.199.59.9.176.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.239s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=235865 (Operator: jurov)
watchglass: 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.421s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639901
watchglass: 188.121.168.69:8333 : (rev-188-121-168-69.radiolan.sk) Alive: (0.365s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639902
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.816s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639901
adlai: gregorynyssa: re:unorthogonality, C++ is also unorthogonal to the point of eating its own spine, yet somehow one or two blubhubs still seem to hire C++ programmers
adlai: the old "fqa" where you can just gram-schmidt the antifeatures until all that is left is orthogonal can be seen as a warped skew-parallel to greenspun's 10th
trinque: I'm by now highly suspect of any "no, this, *THIS* is the one string munger to rule them all" in unixland
trinque: sed, *awk, m4, tcl, *sh, fuck me, I'm tired of this list already
trinque: the worst part is that they use ALL OF THEM TOGETHER
trinque: I'm over here wondering why I can't get flex 2.5.39 to compile statically, as it does not respect LDFLAGS=-static
trinque: if the GNU fuckwits intended the whole industry to so completely choke on their wad that it would never move on, congrats.
trinque: lemme tell you just how long a project my assertion that "fuck you, there will only be one autoconf in this pile" has made.
trinque: because the various dipshits all used different string-mungers and different versions of same string mungers in the dependencies leading up to gcc.
trinque: and sure, could instead use whomever's pre-generated Makefiles and pretend autoconf isn't there, and then forever muck about in generated code. no.
trinque: so no, this "I found in this found-object a little piece of myself" dies in the fire.
asciilifeform: trinque: and on top of this 'thought you hit bottom, then somebody knocks from below', wait till you consider the q of 'why does 'flex' even exist' etc
trinque: oh, I know.
asciilifeform reminds readers that orig. DEC unixen did useful work in 256-512kB total storage..
trinque: my wife commented to me once that "revolutionaries always fixate on the putsch, and never on what comes after".
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016763 << almost certainly this aint news, but asciilifeform cpp for a living, for years. (and on microshit, no less.)
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 13:10:45 adlai: gregorynyssa: re:unorthogonality, C++ is also unorthogonal to the point of eating its own spine, yet somehow one or two blubhubs still seem to hire C++ programmers
asciilifeform: in microshitistan, thing is still king. and 'jobsecurity lang.'
adlai: well now, some folks studied the liquishit for years, some only dabble, and others have it poured on them until they drown
asciilifeform: trinque: wife aint wrong, there
trinque: I think this is apt for the GNUtards, only were concerned with infecting commercial unix with their spread shit
adlai doubts that eugenics and muskism has yet reached the point where babies are taught C++ before they learn latin, although perhaps this is not far away.
asciilifeform: trinque: see oblig. naggum also.
trinque: bless him, "go away", he was such an optimist.
trinque has read this one
asciilifeform: adlai: if were not for trb legacy pile o'shit, i would not recommend to any n00b to 'dabble' in cpp. it's arguably 'a cobol', will slowly destroy yer brain if you start to take it seriously, unless you have ~very~ strong immune system
trinque: and psychological autoimmune disorders are also a thing.
asciilifeform: the fella who remarked to a young asciilifeform 'after N lines of coad, you will smash yer comp and build unabomber cabin' was a cpp programmer.
asciilifeform: elsewhere: without biting the bait of the butthurt of folx who couldn't be arsed to bake a wot isp, large or small -- there are actually quite a few trb-compat. nodes not advertised anywhere but the p2p net itself, and it is possible to map'em out
snsabot: Logged on 2020-05-06 14:28:35 asciilifeform: !w peers 205.134.172.27
asciilifeform: i even posted 100% of the necessary coad, to do this. if someone gives a damn, can map.
whaack: asciilifeform: ostensibly "important" folks have a deal with some miner/other node - "plz keep me up to date with block data, and do not advertise my node as I wish to remain in my closed network."
asciilifeform: whaack: the beauty is, tho, that you can't have an entirely 'closed net' and still bitcoinate.
asciilifeform: (well, rather, you can, it's called a fork..)
asciilifeform: as for 'plz keep me up to date but not advertise mine', it's a built-in knob, called '-connect'...
asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-19#1016766 << before this slips away -- i'd include php in the list.
snsabot: Logged on 2020-07-19 13:19:48 trinque: sed, *awk, m4, tcl, *sh, fuck me, I'm tired of this list already
trinque: sure, php perl python ruby aaaa there goes my gall again
asciilifeform: 9000 sadlangs to half-arsedly do exactly same job.
whaack: asciilifeform: My point is that although the graph is fully connected, it's not true that every node can see the whole graph.
asciilifeform: whaack: this is elementarily true, nodes that operate via '-connect' -- or normally, but sitting behind nat -- aint connectable to externally.
asciilifeform: (and don't get advertised as peers by peers)
asciilifeform: this is actually most of the net (when taking whole net , prb etc included) by mass.
asciilifeform: whaack: at 1 time, asciilifeform wrote a mechanism, 'wires', to make it simple to create 'private' cliques of noads that can connect to one another. but abandoned from lack of in-wot interest. (didn't help that the 1st version was buggy, either)
asciilifeform: i did this when still entertained the hypothesis that trb suffered slow sync on acct of interference from isps/nsa/etc
whaack: alright, i guess i was confused by your point that you can map out the 'nodes not advertised anywhere but the pwp net itself'
whaack: p2p*
asciilifeform: can only map out the publicly-talkable ones, aha
whaack: you still can't map out the whole graph, which makes it silly to say 'the nodes i can see are the only nodes!'
asciilifeform: defo can't map out nodes that dun answer on public ports.
asciilifeform: however, if you think you found a public noad that is trb-compat, can, e.g. :
asciilifeform: !w probe 103.36.92.112
watchglass: 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.775s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=639920
asciilifeform: ( see src re how decides 'trb-compat' , is quite simple )
asciilifeform: prb's will look like e.g. :
asciilifeform: !w probe 176.122.101.230
watchglass: 176.122.101.230:8333 : Alive: (0.276s) V=70015 (/Satoshi:0.19.1/) Jumpers=0x409 (PRB: WITNESS;NETWORK_LIMITED) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:0 Blocks=639921
asciilifeform: ^ bot lists evidence re 'why this aint trb'
whaack: asciilifeform: nifty, i'll try to give the source a read when I have a moment
asciilifeform: note that currently milking prb noades for peers doesn't work, they use an incompat. protocol .
snsabot: Logged on 2020-03-01 14:38:20 asciilifeform: shinohai: this btw confirmed. i did experiment, if one sends that extra byte, prb noades do in fact send addrs. (and yes some of'em ipv6, have to be thrown out)
asciilifeform: whaack: you may or may not need this for yer application.
asciilifeform: (for 'block viewer' is of 0 use . this is for if yer mapping out the net etc )
asciilifeform: all of this is strictly in re the q of 'what can be determined re size/shape of bitcoin p2p net' .
shinohai: https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/zero-logs-vpn-company-exposes-millions-user-logs <<< evidently, another COVID-19 casualty. xD
asciilifeform: shinohai: lulzy.
asciilifeform: shinohai: tastes great w/ earlier sauce.
shinohai: aha!
asciilifeform: shinohai: it entertains me that incidents like the linked item have 0 measurable effect on vpnism enthusiasts. ( rather like e.g. n-th, n+1st, ... , 'silkroad' trials had similarly 0 effect on the tor smokers )
asciilifeform: will paste for the l0gz :
asciilifeform: 'A Hong Kong-based UFO VPN - which claims a 'zero logs' policy, maintained a database without any password, exposing over 20 million user logs per day which consisted of 894 GB of data. The logs reportedly included passwords, IP addresses, geographical location, connection timestamps, session tokens, device information and the OS used. This is in stark contrast to UFO VPN's stated privacy policy that "We do not track user activ
asciilifeform: ities outside of our Site, nor do we track the website browsing or connection activities of users who are using our Services."'
shinohai: "We don't track, but everyone else can!" (tm)
asciilifeform: oblig. see also.
shinohai: But yeah, you're right, burned customer will simply move on to *yet another vpn provider* "surely this one is better"
asciilifeform: the chukchas and neighbouring tribes had similar religious practice. if a god 'wasn't pulling his share', i.e. praying to $idol wasn't delivering 'luck', they'd smear the idol with shit, or -- in 'extreme' failures -- throw in fire, and pick another..
asciilifeform: at no pt would question the 'algo' tho.
asciilifeform: dpb: problem with box ?
dpb: asciilifeform, terribly sorry, I am an idiot, i shutdown my rockchip by accident
dpb: no rush, just wanted to give you a heads up as i don't think i can turn it back on from where i'm at
dpb: gtg now
asciilifeform: ugh ok. this'll req. a visit. will count against your 2h/y repair .
dpb: that's fine. thank you
asciilifeform: will do it when i wake up ( about to bed ) if that's ok
asciilifeform: aite.
dpb: yep
dpb: gn
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feedbot: http://mvdstandard.net/2020/07/yves-rausch-black-forest-rambo-allegedly-captured-by-police/ << The Montevideo Standard -- Yves Rausch, Black Forest Rambo Allegedly Captured By Police