benkay: ;;later tell bitcoinpete let me know when you find the joke about mircea_popescu's cock
mircea_popescu: but most of the shit we do today costs 5mn, and would have cost 500 to make 15 years ago.
benkay: we do shit for 50-100k that woulda run in the millions a decade ago.
mircea_popescu: just think. now the govt is buying.
mircea_popescu: what did the obamacare webjournal cost again ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: benkay ironically, i would say the average paid per webpage today far exceeds the height of the dot com bubble.
mircea_popescu: the disadvantage of being a loyal servant of a small yet arrogant country.
gribble: Clifford Cocks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clifford_Cocks>; Q&A: The encryption pioneer who was written out of history ... - PC Pro: <http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/security/361669/q-a-the-encryption-pioneer-who-was-written-out-of-history>; Wired 7.04: The Open Secret: <http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.04/crypto_pr.html>
benkay: (i give it a 1/10 - fukken blasted from a weekend with family; barely capable of satisfying the one i have)
benkay: anyways, flight was great - *my* pet redhead is making steaks, and then we're off to the wine bar to seduce the flight attendant
mircea_popescu: "Russia finished the final stage of the East Siberia-Pacific Ocean (ESPO) Pipeline in 2013."
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'wisdom is hopping on the train a day before everybody else' (leo szilard)
mircea_popescu: they may add a say 30% surcharge for any us exports just for fun tho.
asciilifeform: 'Russia promised to respond symmetrically. In its arsenal is: popping the huge financial bubble and causing a resumption of the financial collapse of 2008 by any number of means, from requiring gold instead of fiat currency as payment for oil and gas, to dumping US dollar reserves (in concert with China), to putting the EU on a fast track to economic collapse by giving the natural gas valve a slight clock
mircea_popescu: "The two versions of RussiaMcCains gas station masquerading as a country and Lakes fearsome conquerorboth start from the same bitter knowledge, even if Senator McCain and Mr. Lake will never admit that fact in public. Its a simple one: Russia will take Crimea, wont pay a big price for it, and theres not a thing anyone can do about it."
chetty: its like school yard fights ... oh yeah, your mother wears combat boots
mircea_popescu: because if they do hold enough they're going to trigger a contest with the chinese as to who dumps them first
asciilifeform: the 'international komoonity' doesn't war. it drive-by shoots.
mircea_popescu: chetty i doubt anyone has the nazi esprit de corps to actually declare wars anymore.
chetty: Is there a bitbet yet on when it formally becomes war?
mircea_popescu: (one of the best predictors of who will be defeated in any conflict is see whose messages don't manage to coallesce, displaying instead dualities)
mircea_popescu: anyway, good point in pando article, re the "party line". it suffers from spina bifida, and will crumble into dust
mircea_popescu: "we are the people you tried to kill, and we will bury you"
asciilifeform: what should fuhrer do when his kingdom breaks into cities (starving) and countryside, which needs nothing from the cities
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: j. c. scott's 'art of not being governed' (which is entirely about asia, incidentally, and mentions this not at all) is the best guide;
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so what's your take on the holodomor ?
asciilifeform: 'Limonov and his friends consider themselves Russians, because to them, Ukrainian is a village tongue, a peasant language, and its most vivid expressions are of the endless hatred that filled every one of the many tribes on the grasslands, like this one: Into Muscovite, Polack, and Jew/Take your knife and stick it through.'
asciilifeform: if i recall you had the 'wrong' piece
bitcoinpete: i'm off for the eve, cheers
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://pando.com/2014/03/17/the-war-nerd-everything-you-know-about-crimea-is-wrong-er/
mircea_popescu: random guess. their pr is mtgox-level atrocious, which is kinda sad after all these trilema articles on the topic
ozbot: This is what the death of Moore’s law looks like: EUV rollout slowed, 450mm wafers halted, and an
Duffer1: http://www.extremetech.com/computing/178529-this-is-what-the-death-of-moores-law-looks-like-euv-paused-indefinitely-450mm-wafers-halted-and-no-path-beyond-14nm
mircea_popescu: they probably lost a hard drive, didn't have a proper array and can't restart till they fsck
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell benkay "the secret discovery of these techniques was for the Tyrant merely a happy accident" << it was in fact. rsa was invented by some brit guy, kept under lock and key unused for 4 decades.
bitcoinpete: benderp: fantastic article. quite enjoyed "engaging in nefarious activity to palp the testicular fortitude of the people who matter and actually set policy in Bitcoin"
mircea_popescu: meanwhile back at the ranch, bitbet invented a whole new kind of hell.
benderp: http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2014/03/17_the-sec-doth-breach-itself-upon-the-rocks-of-mpex-and-popescu-himself.html
benderp: it's kinda rough as these airplane pieces can be
mircea_popescu: "OP, I know cryptostocks makes it seem as though starting your very own security is a sort of past time accessible to anyone who'd like to try, sort of like adopting a pet fish. This has nothing to do with bitcoin securities in fact and everything to do with play-pretend exchanges exploiting those who'd like to try but aren't ready for one reason or another."
mircea_popescu: decent write-up on the topic tho
ozbot: Warren Buffett says he wants to pay more tax (then structures a deal to ensure he does the exact opp
mircea_popescu: http://pando.com/2014/03/17/warren-buffett-says-he-wants-to-pay-more-tax-then-structures-a-deal-to-ensure-he-does-the-exact-opposite/
asciilifeform: that you can then triangulate.
asciilifeform: other thing
mircea_popescu: i'/d suggest you try this theory out, but instead just lie down D:
mircea_popescu: mech is still the golden standard.
asciilifeform: the latter can be had for $5 (it's in every ipnohe etc)
mircea_popescu: a lot of their spec is edge cases tho.
mircea_popescu: and they still suck.
asciilifeform: because they're $10k each.
asciilifeform: as it is, they famously lack enough even to supply infantry
asciilifeform: dignork: this requires fitting receivers for the u.s. proprietary (crypted) gps to all hardware
dignork: asciilifeform, US considers shutting off gps in some cases, so pbbly their drones can work gps-less too.
mircea_popescu: but on large icmb type of things. tehy've not really fittedf it to the 10lb shits yet
asciilifeform: judging by the use of 'gps' in 'predator', my guess is 'not.'
asciilifeform: in the '80s, there was quite a bit of $ spent on navigation using optical terrain tracking.
dignork: asciilifeform, i loled about this story with my friend who builds them for non-US army, and she said that it won't work with their drones, cz they'll fallback into gps-less mode, once there will be delta between compass/altimeter and gps readings
mircea_popescu: and if this keeps up for another 3-4 years the rest of the world will own more drones than the usg.
asciilifeform: (i'm not a model plane driver for a living, i only know the ones that every idiot knows now.)
mircea_popescu: the word around the backchannels is that the usaf gets back about 2/3 of the drones it sends out
asciilifeform: there are now several such stories.
dignork: asciilifeform, do you mean the story with fake gps transmitters, which diverted drone?
mircea_popescu: kinda the problem, yes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they can sack them, they can shoot them, a kid with $100 of kit can still take the next toy plane home.
mircea_popescu: i guess people in the us are so starstruck with "technology" they forget they're just little radio planes.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: The problem with drones is it is way to tempting to stick them in places where they don't belong.
mircea_popescu: turns out they are kinda useless in actual military operations.
ThickAsThieves: they were better at receiving head than giving it
mircea_popescu: "Two U.S. Air Force commanders in the 422nd Air Base Group at RAF Croughton have been relieved over a loss of confidence in their abilities."
ThickAsThieves: musta got rich on ATC and quit the game...
gribble: pankkake was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 weeks, 1 day, 23 hours, 10 minutes, and 2 seconds ago: <pankkake> reminder http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/08/12/android_bug_batters_bitcoin_wallets/
ThickAsThieves: even after being given links to educate themselves
mircea_popescu: so now stfu for a few months and spend hours reading the logs.
ThickAsThieves: ughlol and shogun made it easy to be dismissed, they started every conversation with their hands out
Duffer1: ah, i have indeed heard of people drowning fighting their rescuers
ninjashogun: When I had been coming in here it was following an experience over a similar channel (related to doge) on a loan. As someone here (asciilifeform?) explained, I should have 'no problem' getting a loan of $20K. In fact I did have "no problem" on it, but in the end I couldn't collect it, and had come in here over a few days to see if anyone were interested in the same.
BingoBoingo: ThickAsThieves: Prolly Thermos
ThickAsThieves: ninjashogun ir probly furuknap or some other past annoyance
ninjashogun: Duffer1 - it' snot 'mine'. It's a feature suggestion for the cardano v2 or v3. it's still the cardano. 95% would be the same, including the basic invention that they described.
Duffer1: ninja but why would i buy yours over the cardano?
ninjashogun: anyway I'd think there's a market for in-between, people (like me) who don't care that much, but would rather not keep a key on a PC
dignork: ninjashogun, let's say it's a complicated attack, and it costs 1M$, which you don't have, then you can safely assume you shouldn't care :)
ninjashogun: I'm trying to invest in some 2.4 ghz wireless equipment (spectrum analyzer among other things) and would be the first time I use one.
ninjashogun: it's just that a CPU does so much, you know? it's 2 or 4 cores at 4 ghz with megabytes of just CPU cache and then hundreds of megabytes of active ram and programs
mircea_popescu: you're in a very poor position to evaluate any of these contingencies.
dignork: ninjashogun, c) they're idiots
dignork: ninjashogun, that's because a) people store useless trash on their systems and don't care/ b) they calculate the risks and live with it
ninjashogun: dignork - if what you are saying is true than there should be a huge market for a USB wifi stick that is just 8 feet of shielded USB cable with a power conditioner on either end, so that your wifi transmission happens the fuck away from your CPU.
ninjashogun: dignork - but above and beyond what the computer leaks anyway by itself?
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Maybe you are the wrong audience as you aren't concerned very far
ninjashogun: personally anyone who could bruteforce all that, while breaking wireless encyrption and your whole network stack, can see the damn document as far as I'm concerned. and they still wouldn't have my private key.
mircea_popescu: lmao this reminds me of the original tucker max wage fixing story.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, further, as a practical matter you are not being asked to transmit a real key. You are just transmitting a stupid session key that is used to sign a single document. And if that session key is used in javascript, which is VERY far from the metal (it's a VM, running in interpreter, JS running in a C++ program, firefox, running on Windows) you would have to have insnae precision on learning exact CPU state.
ozbot: The Techtopus: How Silicon Valley’s most celebrated CEOs conspired to drive down 100,000 tech engi
mircea_popescu: http://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valleys-most-celebrated-ceos-conspired-to-drive-down-100000-tech-engineers-wages/
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, anything that leaked one bit, could be repeated until you have them all. It only works if you can't learn any of them, except by brute-forcing all of them together.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I get your point but obviously if you can learn a single bit of a key, you can learn them all. Not one bit should be leaked, ever.
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: your second homework is to play ussr national anthem using a pc, c or cpp program, and a shortwave radio.
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: your homework is to prove, given K bit rsa key with factors P,Q, there exists N, where N is number of bits you need to learn to factor into P,Q in polynomial time.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo: I hate to be the one to break it to you. I thought you heard. /. had a stroke and is in a nurinsg home :(
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, OK. If you think it is impossible to prevent WIFI from broadcasting the full contents of the CPU and RAM then you would have to design around it to make my suggestion possible, which may be too difficult.
asciilifeform: it's the one we use.
asciilifeform: there is a very simple mitigation strategy. you don't need to burgle ft. meade to learn it.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, the paper that proved that also suggested mitigation strategies...
ninjashogun: dignork - are you saying that hte presence of WIFI will leak the CPU state?
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, the way a tunnelled layer works, is it's OK to give a copy of every bit to an Evesdropper, they still can't make out the plain text.
dignork: ninjashogun, you missed the point, transmission creates side-channel leak
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I told you? You can consider the link totally insecure and still use it....?
ninjashogun: dignork, but for the next version.
asciilifeform: but if you take raspi, or pc on your desk, or whatnot, and remove the diseased meat, you will have... an empty crate.
ninjashogun: dignork - further I don't have any problem with it in the current form. I think asciilifeform should patent it. I also suggest he work on just one layer of the solution, which is the physical transport layer, and consider bluetooth or wifi.
asciilifeform: if you could take raspi or whatever, remove the mystery meat, add analogue rng - you would not need cardano.
ozbot: Loper OS » Don’t Blame the Mice.
ozbot: Mircea Popescu: “The SEC Won’t Let Me Be.” Or, “I’ve Been Expecting You.” | When Bitcoin
ninjashogun: dignork - you misinterpret my tone if you think I'm arguing. I like the idea of the Cardano very much, I think it's a genuine, useful, good, and non-obvious innovation, and I encourage asciilifeform in building it and getting it to market.
asciilifeform: it's the key ingredient in hydrogen bomb, for instance.
asciilifeform: there is an engineering term, 'ullage'
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, that's not true. They don't like to innovate.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - in the eventual wifi version, no one would have to know that you even use it. if being surveilled by site, it wouldn't be obvious that it's on your person. (or whether it is).
BingoBoingo: Generally that distrust is the sort that comes from an abundance rather than a dearth of knowledge
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: I think the point of the Cardano is it serves people who can not even entirely trust the security of *nix systems
ninjashogun: maybe 20 years is too long for a patent to be valid - then consider donating it after 3 years or 7 years. You can assign it to a protective Open Source patent fund.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, if you have to compete with Kingston copying your idea then you are dead in the water. You can't even make it to market.
mircea_popescu: when otherwise nice, smart guys realised that they had literally killed hundreds of women
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actually dr semmelweis is a major moment in the cultural history of medicine
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, the fact is, if you want to get this into millions of people's hands you will have to invest half a million in research and manufacturing. it could be the only secure device in their whole household (if they run windows.)
ninjashogun: asciilifeform - how could it be kept from the public? Wouldn't every electrical engineer with a scope see it?
ninjashogun: the basic thing that you came up with is an escrowed key service embodied in a physical device that does not disclose the key, but uses it and discloses the result. This is a very good invention.
asciilifeform: this was a carefully kept secret for decades (if only from american public) so there is no shame in not knowing
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: if you did not know the fact that a radio transmitter radiates not only what you want, but the state of nearby circuit, you know now.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, by the way don't let the haters take anyting away. All of my suggestoin are at a single layer - and do not in ANY way impact the basic idea you've come up with with mircea_popescu --- which is a VERY good one. I don't really add anything in my suggestoins - it is the same design. You should patent it.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Or just blast the area with cheap crt tv's playing reality shows, sound off.
ninjashogun: also the EM radiation might be similar when coming off of several similar computers.
ninjashogun: on http://trilema.com/2013/how-to-airgap-a-practical-guide/ - I would also suggest running several copies of hte same hardware next to each other. If they're all doing something, how is someone going to know which is the one that is of interest. This can even subvert someone physically ocming in and using it in your absence.
BingoBoingo: I have a reason to get another SE/30
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: you'll be happy to learn that the box has rs232 now. (ttl level voltage)
BingoBoingo: It isn't just about the definition of an airgap, but of the motivations behind it as well that make radio the wrong medium for connecting to such boxes
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Are you familiar with the actual concept of an airgap.
ninjashogun: you're on the couch on your iPad, want to sign something an email it. Are you going to keep your key on your iPad?
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - I learned of this literally 20 minutes ago. My improvements already have something that can at least theoretically work with an iPad and iPhone, which loads of people do their surfing on in the evening, and certainly don't want to keep keys on.
BingoBoingo: Honestly the improvement from USB would probably be RS-232
ninjashogun: Again, none of this is to take away from the design as I've already read about it here. I like it a lot.
BingoBoingo: Then your browser can scarcely sandbox javascript?
ninjashogun: on an iPad and iPhone, you can copy the text, connect to the brick's wifi, paste it, copy the result, and then reconnect to your normal wifi. These things don't have a USB stack at all.
ozbot: Mozilla Firefox is exploited four times at HP's Pwn2own hacking contest- The Inquirer
BingoBoingo: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2334572/mozilla-firefox-is-exploited-four-times-at-hps-pwn2own-hacking-contest
ninjashogun: I disagree, I think firefox running javascript is one of the simplest things to develop and target 100% of PC's with. Also it would work on some tablets, which have no USB subcomponent at all, but do have copy and paste and wifi connections.
BingoBoingo: Wifi and browsers are never the simplest things
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo - I always consider the simplest hting that could possibly work.
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Have you considered that rather than leveraging a complex behemoth of other people's work which was produced with the potential of malice towards your intended cause, you could just make something simpler.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, if I can have up to a 3 year grace period I would accept that with the full $22.5K.
ninjashogun: on the $7-$22.5K?
BingoBoingo: Like leveraged gambling... Until they come for your kneecaps
ninjashogun: what, do you not like the word?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: ninjashogun: remember to ground the faraday cage
ninjashogun: Overall I would suggest you consider it due to the amount of security attention that 1) the WIFI stack 2) browser communications, have received. You can leverage that.
ninjashogun: dignork - hmmm.. Well, on Mac and Linux you could do an md5sum or sha1sum on the javascript before you run it. On Windows you can only use a custom certificate, signed by yourself, and know the issuer.
ninjashogun: the wifi connects either a) to your device or b) to a MITM that connects to your device
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo bout a dozen in the bucharest residentura.
ninjashogun: dignork, it doesn't matter who firefox trusts. You can run a complete tunnel using javascript all the way to the final end-point. The whole point of PKI is that it doesn't matter who sniffs packets.
asciilifeform: but essence is: there is an amplifier. it takes a small signal, uses it to modulate a carrier wave
mircea_popescu: apparently somehow they still don't see me coming, it's fascinating.
asciilifeform: i wish i had the energy to explain here, for stone age man, how a radio works
mircea_popescu: the entire social stack was unprepared.
ninjashogun: However, the current version transfers files in the plain over the USB protocol. it is 100% vulnerable to a USB mitm - which could probably be made so small that it almost fits in a usb drive.
diametric: mircea_popescu: your email exchange with the "SEC" is fantastic.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, packet capture is not a concern because you can establish a higher secure channel from Firefox on the computer all the way to the final device. This is possible because hte device can have a known fingerprint.
ninjashogun: etely defeating the MITM.
ninjashogun: What changes with Wifi? Well, you can still have a man in the middle, but it would be much more prohibitive. It would need a complete access point that connects to the device masquarading as the computer, while exposing itself to the computer and hiding the true signal from the computer. It's possible, but more difficult. And in the end the computer can do a complete secure session (in javascript with the browser) compl
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: but in that version, you lose the card crypto
ninjashogun: I mean it retains no knowledge of what it signed. The person can't go home and check everything they've signed.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, since this device as described does NOT retain the signed document in memory, it is therefore signing something without knowing what it is, if it has been transferred between the PC and storage medium.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: there is a version of the apparatus (exists on my desk only, for foreseeable future) with no cables. slide cards in/out.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, also, in my personal opinion as a security observer, a man in the middle attack with a PC (or laptop) being opened, and a second usb host being inserted between the real USB and the device, whose purpose is to subtlely alter what is being signed, is a very real risk.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: decolonialization is fun for some people, less for others.
ninjashogun: BingoBoingo, however, it is absolutely doubtless that wifi protocols get roughly 100x as much security research as the usb protocol does.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: our friend is either trolling - or slept in a cave for years
BingoBoingo: ninjashogun: Doesn't Wifi violate the intent of an airgap even if there is "air" involved
ninjashogun: But this is not to detract from what you've done, asciilifeform (and mircea_popescu ?) Overall the device is a VERY good step.
mircea_popescu: yes, there was a referendum neh ?
ninjashogun: I think there are a lot of unknowns over USB and it is a frequently underestimated attack vector, with very little security research being done.
mircea_popescu: but srsly, what are your politics on the matter ?
ninjashogun: :) I undrestand what you're doing with the USB thing. However, I, personally, do not consider USB stacks to be very secure.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, in fact it could be set to ONLY sign/encrypt/decrypt the next 1 message or 2 messages. So that it can't be stolen off someone's body, as it's in theri home and will only sign the next 2 things.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'watch this video of Yanukovychs snipers murdering unarmed protesters and tell me who the real fascists' << lol
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, Why not? assume that the other end is in the person's home. Then the wireless key is truly unusable.
mircea_popescu: with the dongle as a central server
asciilifeform: trolling or total ignorance of the engineering realities. which?
ninjashogun: it could also come iwth storage, so that it could be used as a "wireless storage device" (thru the browser). rather than have to plug and unplug a usb stick.
asciilifeform: 'he crowds in Kiev, which can swell up to a million on a good day and are always in the hundreds of thousands, are there out of their own homegrown sense of outrage, not because some State Department bureaucrats willed them there' << author knows, or not, what it costs to feed & shovel shit for 1M-strong crowd ?
ninjashogun: this suggestion isn't for the current version, which as a piece of hardware is great.
ninjashogun: is more resilient than a USB stack against, for example, man in the middle attacks (if someone knows that you will use that usb drive they could put a fake USB controller in that MITM attacks it.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I have a suggestion for your next version. My suggestion is that the air gap with the computer be maintained, by running (a different brick) that is a wireless access point. You can connect to its wifi and use Firefox on localhost to upload and sign or upload and encrypt/decrypt files, which it would then serve back. This requires a computer with access to WIFI. However, I think in general a network stack
ninjashogun: So, I like the idea very much.
mircea_popescu: half why i even keep that blog, if i didn't write the shit up i'd end up forgetting it all.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the intro thing? one of us did
ninjashogun: I just wasn't sure if the tone is somewhat pseudo- or ironic, or it's meant to be read "straight"
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i recall he was prepping for some surgery i hope they didn't end up cutting the wrong part.
ninjashogun: It's an intersting introduction. In the end I like it :)
mircea_popescu: ninjashogun people who don't have to supervise their own humours to please a third party behave differently than the us norm.
ninjashogun: that first paragraph isa joke right? ("what's the idea")? like it's pseudo-lofty, right?
asciilifeform: ninjashogun: a small gizmo, described here: http://trilema.com/snsa-first-product-the-cardano
mircea_popescu: but i know plenty of hungarian folk that really killed it in the 90s
ninjashogun: so about half the size by population
ninjashogun: The question isn't whether it was built - but how many Romanian cofounders or investors were on board?
mircea_popescu: and a bunch of other stuff.
asciilifeform: i'd venture to guess that there are many romanian startups. just not registered officially.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Maybe in limited cases, but The US isn't quite Norway or Denmark
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i thought they had interwebs too, no ?
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, it's the same reason (to be honest) that very few Romanians found startups and that you would have had far more trouble finidng cofounders if you didnt' want to do it alone, than you would have in (for example), Berlin, Rome, Brussels, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc.....
asciilifeform: afaik the u.s. socialist party was run from inside of a jail for a while.
ninjashogun: mircea_popescu, the answer is that they do not have the right socioeconomic perspective.
mircea_popescu: they get free food and net access afaik
asciilifeform: the lottery model applies when you are (from our point of view) a total wildcard.
ninjashogun: The lottery model of startups is simply mistaken and wrong.
ninjashogun: asciilifeform, I was actually responding to the earlier statement (day 1: ...lottery) with my statement about his model being wrong.