asciilifeform: i found this out the last time we had 'let's bake ic' thread, and it was thoroughly depressing, put me off subj for 2y..
asciilifeform: it is not available as off-the-shelf service anywhere, afaik, nope.
mircea_popescu: if i wanted the center caret of z80 rotated 90 degrees and printed, i could not get this done.
asciilifeform: as i currently understand, that means vertical integration, i.e. building the plant.
mircea_popescu: yes well. how about we bake out of this, rather than into this.
asciilifeform: they giv'em under nda, too.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the sad bit is that conventional asic process , as available today in cn , tw, etc, is also like this. you are forced to use 'standard cells' supplied by vendor.
mircea_popescu: so it's how the "industry" works. http://trilema.com/2016/tangerine/ is how the "music industry" works.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is actually how existing ic industry worx, a good half of the 'asics' are actually 'hard copy fpga', recall the early miner derps threads.
asciilifeform: there's no 'bitness' in fpga, it's a bag of gates, if you have enuff of them you can made n-bit addder, divider, whatever one likes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes alf, that's what's always the crutch. "give just a little spring in yoru step for insurance against toads in the roads." that's precisely the crutch.
mircea_popescu: now, a 4096 bit native fpga, specifically for rsa-ing and rsa-likes-ing, THAT might be very useful, because there the s-o-d item is major win.
asciilifeform: what's the 'crutch' ? not spending a $3mil + 1yr delay if there's bug in layout , like 1970s folx had to ?
mircea_popescu: the third is technological -- you learn to walk with crutch.
asciilifeform: the other is political, all of the existing vendors obfuscate and keep seekrit the necessary docs to actually program the thing. ice40 happens to have been reversed, but it is ruinously small ( still ~150x bigger than the miniature xilinx i baked FG from, however , but too small even for 4096bit adder )
asciilifeform: there's 2 well-known minuses. 1 is that yer making circuit out of immovable parts, connected by drawing line though multiple elements ( bus lines are generally few ) , this gives you much slower circuit with many fewer logical elements than if you had made the device physically from scratch .
mircea_popescu: neither do you -- the minuses of the linux-c stack were actually not thortoughly understood until tmsr either.
mircea_popescu: i don't suspect they're well understood.
asciilifeform: thing's existed since mid-80s, the pluses and minuses of it are well-documented
mircea_popescu: i'm not particularly invested in being right about it ; but i'd better not be right and we end up with the wrong thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's better approaches to hanging moles than putting an ok button on every movement of every rifle.
mircea_popescu: because no, "every picture comes with crayons now" is not very smart ; and it's perversely, recursively nonsmart ("can't make polaroid, no way to produce attachable crayons -- maybe 3d print them ???")
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for design that actually fits inside, you end with exactly 'slow asic', with the added win that it's a homogeneous object with no e.g. 'and here is where he will rsa and here is where the low bit of multiplier will live' sabotage target available to enemy mole in vendor plant.
mircea_popescu: i believe attempting to go "everything's a fpga because fg worked ok on one" is learning the wrong lesson from fg, in the http://btcbase.org/log/2014-06-02#699427 sense.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-18 22:58 asciilifeform: whaack is quite likely thinking of the bulk of the b00k, which consists of blockcipher liquishit which is complicated for no reason at all other than the religion where 'it is confusing to ME, author, and therefore Must Be Hard To Break'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem with escher objects is that "perpetuum mobile -- also works pretty well". it's what the fan always says, because "to my eyes" http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-18#1686299 sorta thing.
mircea_popescu: and i suspect the later.
mircea_popescu: there's two possible reasons you don't have a definition for a fpga you're happy with : either we're not yet enough advanced for one (to use, to make, whatever), or that it is ouytright an escher object.
mircea_popescu: i can well define a hammer, one of the simplest devices.
asciilifeform: buncha gates, as many as can fit, and a programmable switching matrix, a la old telco , look up tables made of 4-6 bits of sram that turn a given unit into 'and' , 'or', 'xor', half-adder, straight wire, whichever is necessary. i dun know how to more rigorously define, it is one of the simplest devices, straight homogeneous grid of sram cells plus a couple hundred (thousand, in larger devices) 'express lanes' made of straight metal,
asciilifeform: and pretty much the ideal 'nonspecificity of diddling' platform, it is quite impossible to meaningfully boobytrap fpga fabric if you don't have foreknowledge of what will go into it and precisely where.
mircea_popescu: a universal tsmr cpu, even if nothing more than miniaturized/updated z80, would prolly be the one gain here. so we end up with a commodity part to put in things.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i've outlined several items, historically. will summarize for the l0gz, in order of descending ( per asciilifeform's lights ) universality : 1) sane fpga 2) sane minimal cpu 3) 8192-bit arithmetizer ( a la ye olde weitek! but for ints ) 4) 2+3 , if somehow can be fit into 1 die 5) 1chip carrierless radio ( per thread ) 6) sane ethernet controller .
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what, the phb is supposed to come up with what ? you come up with three things let me pick, how about that!
mircea_popescu: the fundamental issue is that linux acts "as if" it's in friendly territory ; which is eminently false.
mircea_popescu: phf i dunno that it's set as "something we do" ; but it's certainly something we do in preference of "/tmp" much like we do things in preference of /dev/rand and other such bs.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's suppose we make the req'd contact. what wouldja want to fab 1st ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 08:35 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865707 << ./tmp is the "cannonical" place for putting "temporary" files ; but only in the sense that ./<label> is the place one'd expect <label> files to end up. it's only cannonical in the sense of cockblocking idiotic unixisms and other moronnicals.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865788 << thanks for the resolution, i wasn't sure if my insistence on my original (that is temp file in .) approach was sensible or not. "canonical" in this case was whether or not that's something we do, not whether or not that's something unix does
mircea_popescu: whereas the point is at http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865758 ; we would like to know how many bitcoin for a run today.
asciilifeform: ( and mircea_popescu seems to concur with my verdict, they're ripoffs )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 05:14 asciilifeform: there's a coupla 'small scale' fabs, but on close examination smell like ripoff, they ship with literally 0 guarantee of yield , and in laughable qty , and with laughable transistor count, and -- to add insult to injury -- die packaging not included, you gotta somehow find someone to do it, somewhere
asciilifeform: it's sorta like the outfit we had FG pcb baked in, but moar extreme.
mircea_popescu: we were discussing the "2-3" figure.
asciilifeform: i expect they use meat hands, with microscopes, to package.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 14:57 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865811 << this is nonsense, no chip packaging costs a benjie wtf. and is the 700 per how many ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865831 << it's a hand-cranked 'for small runs' shop, 1 of 2 known to exist. hence the riotous per-unit pricings.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 13:59 asciilifeform: plus 'shipping and eu export fees'. but the other big hit is packaging cost : 30 - 100 eu. ~per chip~, depending on # of contacts / shape of can.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865811 << this is nonsense, no chip packaging costs a benjie wtf. and is the 700 per how many ?
mircea_popescu: much like we'll have the luxury of paying taxes (it IS a luxury, if they're correctly used it's way the fuck better to pay a twenny and snow mover to come in than for each to keep in shed, oiled and repaired, own minimover for own driveway) once there's tmsr.gov somewhere. and so on.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865802 << yeah, sure. and we'll have this luxury again once tmsr-os. because as it is right now, the option is not actually available.
mircea_popescu: about" with a view to "decide" "how it should be". we'll find out the natural way, there's no need for badly written fanfic.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 06:31 mircea_popescu: slowly but surely a republican ada style manual is shaping up (and through the exact http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865304 process, at that!)
mircea_popescu: up to you whether to make a dir or not ; eventually these will end up in that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865314 -- but the only way that happens is if you try things and then productively disagree with people. i've nfi at the moment whether we do or we don't want single temp files in a tmp dir nevertheless, or anything else ; and i absolutely do not wish to ever do (or will ever permit anyone to) sit around and "think
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865790 << i sat for 2h last night reading 'standard' and 'rationale', and was not able to determine ! will require extensive dig into the gnat src, i suspect.
asciilifeform: the other thing i oughta mention, is the amt of sweat required. if asciilifeform were a free man, could do it in perhaps a year. but at present-day capacity, would not dare to even try.
asciilifeform: the 3550 is per run, if it wasnt obv.
asciilifeform: which is not so bad, quite enuff for a mips ( or even the old bolix , supposing anyone had the layout for it ) but laughably small for e.g. fpga.
asciilifeform: per my reckoning, you can ~maybe~ fit a '386' in these.
asciilifeform: sooo taking only the lower bounds ( 4mm^2 ; 700 eu. per mm^2 ; 30 eu. per tin can ) and not counting eu fees / taxes / exorbitant shipping couriers , and assuming 25 , we end up with a figure of 3550 eu, 'old toyota' gets you 25 units, some of which may even work...
asciilifeform: ( if yer baking cpu, or fpga, or other item large enuff to make the game worth the candles )
asciilifeform: plus 'shipping and eu export fees'. but the other big hit is packaging cost : 30 - 100 eu. ~per chip~, depending on # of contacts / shape of can.
asciilifeform: here's what i was able to find , via the pdf turd : base charge is 700 -- 12000 euro / mm^2 , depending on density ( 0.35uM to 28nm ); this gets you 25 ~bare~ dies , + 'phree 15 if available' ;
asciilifeform: ( the other sub-$1mil fab is mosis co., but it is in usa, serves primarily usg, and dun publish prices, in the past i tried to get estimate from it but without success )
a111: Logged on 2016-12-08 03:13 asciilifeform: 'cmp', the other co. linked from trinque's old link, has actual PRICES!111 -- http://cmp.imag.fr/IMG/pdf/cmp_prices_schedule_sept-16.pdf
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865758 << imho worth linking to the prev thread : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-08#1579598
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 08:23 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865605 << i wouldn't send him supplies he doesn't ask for. let the man actually do something useful.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 08:35 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865707 << ./tmp is the "cannonical" place for putting "temporary" files ; but only in the sense that ./<label> is the place one'd expect <label> files to end up. it's only cannonical in the sense of cockblocking idiotic unixisms and other moronnicals.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 08:30 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865674 << you're too focused on this "node is a battleship" pov. nodes ocme in herds, they're zerglings not protoss.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865782 << dun matter if yer an admiral, or emperor, you got 1 arse. the node you ~generate~ tx on, ~is~ a battleship.
bvt: given that there is a single temporary file -- would ./ also work? ./tmp directory would have to be separately created and removed, and the less unix fs is touched, the better, i guess.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 20:28 phf: i think it's an open question for the logs, whether or not /tmp is canonical place for putting temporary files, and whether or not writing a copy of what's being pressed in some arbitrary place (for all practical purposes) is a good idea
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 01:28 asciilifeform: ( how ran into this : sneak preview of mmap demo : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VDYWv/?raw=true << path is set cleanly, as part of the generic invocation. but turns out this dun work (unless secondarystackism is enabled) , as somewhere internally it tries to ~return~ the string
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 20:28 phf: i think it's an open question for the logs, whether or not /tmp is canonical place for putting temporary files, and whether or not writing a copy of what's being pressed in some arbitrary place (for all practical purposes) is a good idea
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865707 << ./tmp is the "cannonical" place for putting "temporary" files ; but only in the sense that ./<label> is the place one'd expect <label> files to end up. it's only cannonical in the sense of cockblocking idiotic unixisms and other moronnicals.
mircea_popescu: IF your program puts something in /tmp, your . is /, and live with that (i for instance will never sign such a monstrosity, unless it's the os/kernel itself)
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 19:57 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865503 << i threw your patch on btcbase, it looks good, though i'm not sure i agree with the decision to put temp file in /tmp. the point of putting it in same hierarchy as press, was to avoid the whole cross-file-system issue
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 18:45 asciilifeform: mod6: in fact, and iirc i discussed this 2y or so ago in the l0g, by my current understanding of the reorg mechanism, it is possible to wedge ~any~ noad by throwing a specially- 'retro'-mined block with a higher work delta than the 'genuine' one at a particular point. then reorg dun trigger at all.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865674 << you're too focused on this "node is a battleship" pov. nodes ocme in herds, they're zerglings not protoss.
mircea_popescu: "Intelligible and Unitelligable" << bwahaha. it's still unintelligible, what, the root changes if you derive it ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 17:57 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: nao i'm curious, how do they typically respond
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865631 << females will be negative to betas and "curious" to alpha irrespective what they say.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865605 << i wouldn't send him supplies he doesn't ask for. let the man actually do something useful.
mircea_popescu: there's a reason crabs never discover zanzibar and nigerians in a pot never get out. the reason is -- THAT VERY FAMBLY.
mircea_popescu: "if i tell truth -- moron cousins back home laugh at me ; if i tell lie, they also come over -- i laugh at them."
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 16:58 Mocky: no dude, they have fambly there who love it. they would love too!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865590 << one time, a moron/filipina/african/whatever got $500 together, and in preference of buying indoor plumbing, or a gf/goat/whatever, bought miami ticket. once there, discovered it sucks terribly. first impulse was to leave a very scathingly honest review on miami.yelp ; but in the 18 minutes the page took to load (hurray for "modern" ux2.0 pid eins!) they changed their mind, left ver
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 16:57 Mocky: unrelatedly, the miami in these filipinas and africans is off the fucking charts. they literally cannot sniff even a whiff of 'america aint that great' without spitting out 'america is the best, how could you even think it's not'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865587 << sad way to go through life ; but then again bulgarians thought "byzantine is best" way into 1200s.
mircea_popescu: portability via vtree rather than ifdefs/wrappers/etc.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 14:15 asciilifeform: the .c absolutely gotta be bug-free tho, or it sinks yer whole proggy
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 01:26 asciilifeform: previously , from last 2+yrs of reading docs, i laboured under the impression that the only process that demands secondary stack, is ~returning~ variably-lengthed objects. rather than simply passing'em forward as 'in' param. which in erry context OTHER than generic, worx .
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 22:30 asciilifeform: defo seems to be a misconfigured/maliciously-configged shitfork noad, none of the tx hashes in the inv's line up with anything from human planet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so let them get to know you ; nothing wrong with derps hearing of the most serene republic.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865738 << 8192 , if can be fit, then can have 4096b rsa without 'bignum', lol
asciilifeform: ( i omit to mention ~large~ fabs, given as if you aint representing a large and known $$$ concern, they dun even return calls )
asciilifeform: granted in past 2y since i last looked, the mythical beast of 'small fab' could have been born
asciilifeform: there's a coupla 'small scale' fabs, but on close examination smell like ripoff, they ship with literally 0 guarantee of yield , and in laughable qty , and with laughable transistor count, and -- to add insult to injury -- die packaging not included, you gotta somehow find someone to do it, somewhere
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865735 << i took a stab at this 2y ago, was very frustrating on acct of asic-baking not being a 'cash and carry' process like e.g. pcb-baking, but a heavily meat-powered affair where the derps want to 'get to know you' to figure out how much they can fleece
a111: Logged on 2018-10-25 04:57 mircea_popescu: what, the supposed interloper can't hash is the idea ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-25#1865742 << diddled cable, port, etc would not know the on-chip salt.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865401 << this is perennial wank in the style of "not a true church" etc. xtian minds at work.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 15:57 asciilifeform: i'ma let mircea_popescu ponder whether this kind of thing is worth doing
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865384 << i confess i don't understand what's being authenticated.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 14:19 asciilifeform: i'ma describe , for the l0gz : ideal cpu for crypto would be something quite like the schoolbook mips.v -- no cache, no branch prediction, no pipeline, no dram controller (run off sram strictly), a set of large regs for multiply-shift , and dedicated pipe to FG (i.e. have single-instruction that fills a register with entropy )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 14:09 asciilifeform: if this were a bake-by-the-thousands product, we could bake asic. but currently this is not realistic imho
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 13:44 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865312 << ideally we oughta bake the new one, with ice40 & scintillator, imho
asciilifeform: ( how ran into this : sneak preview of mmap demo : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VDYWv/?raw=true << path is set cleanly, as part of the generic invocation. but turns out this dun work (unless secondarystackism is enabled) , as somewhere internally it tries to ~return~ the string
asciilifeform: previously , from last 2+yrs of reading docs, i laboured under the impression that the only process that demands secondary stack, is ~returning~ variably-lengthed objects. rather than simply passing'em forward as 'in' param. which in erry context OTHER than generic, worx .
asciilifeform: because somebody's mother dropped him etc
asciilifeform: ideally you want device with ~no~ flash storage at all on the pcb, to avoid even theoretical possibility of retaining bits of key when unkeyed.
asciilifeform: the 1 non-negotiable aspect is that there must be 0 pc-side involvement in or awareness of the thing.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-24 01:46 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: all schemes where the transform is of 'payload itself' and 0 entropy, suffer from immediate 'penguin problem', https://blog.filippo.io/content/images/2015/11/Tux_ecb.jpg .
asciilifeform: ( the problem of ciphering a block device in such a way as to avoid the penguin ( http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-24#1590007 ) is tricky but not insurmountable )
asciilifeform: ( for the l0gz : from asciilifeform's pov, 'sane disk crypter' is an item that gets keyed via onboard keyboard jack, e.g. serpents, the attached disk, and unkeyed when powered off or at the closing of a contact attached to $whatever )
a111: Logged on 2015-09-22 03:01 asciilifeform: speaking of, last i checked, 'trezor' was still reflashable from the usb jack.
asciilifeform: ( usb controllers, on other hand, appear to -- without any known exception -- suffer from http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-22#1282100 and related )
asciilifeform: iirc the colouring was originally of telephone cables, in ww2-era us army.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 20:31 phf: i like to keep things red/black, so that e.g. red disk plates go into tomato soup at some point, but considering how leaky the whole system is, there's not really a red/black within the same machine anyway
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865708 << if pc iron had its shit together, there would not even need to be such a thing as 'red' disk -- only (temporarily) 'red' sram, and buncha freely backed up 'black' disk.
phf: i like to keep things red/black, so that e.g. red disk plates go into tomato soup at some point, but considering how leaky the whole system is, there's not really a red/black within the same machine anyway
phf: i think it's an open question for the logs, whether or not /tmp is canonical place for putting temporary files, and whether or not writing a copy of what's being pressed in some arbitrary place (for all practical purposes) is a good idea
a111: Logged on 2018-10-19 01:41 asciilifeform: zeptobars seems pretty dead; their site is up, but pretty sure that all of the pics therein, were there last yr
phf: yeah, this time around i'll have plenty of time to investigate all the ru corp details, and also photos
BingoBoingo: Don't forget to pack the camera
phf: i grok the reasoning, but there are two issues: as of right now nobody's mounting to nfs, but at least in my stack tmp is not always as secure as other places i might be pressing, and the patch doesn't respect the environment TMP/TMPDIR convention.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 21:41 bvt: a better write-up on the vpatch temporary file creation: http://bvt-trace.net/2018/10/vpatch-replacing-mktemp3
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865503 << i threw your patch on btcbase, it looks good, though i'm not sure i agree with the decision to put temp file in /tmp. the point of putting it in same hierarchy as press, was to avoid the whole cross-file-system issue
asciilifeform: and yes a node you plug in today ~will~ likely sync, but this is only because the noise floor is low enuff.
asciilifeform: i strongly suspect that the general case of 'establish the troo historic longest chain, strictly from the network, consisting of arbitrary portions of honest and dishonest nodes', without some variant of cement, is not solvable in general case
asciilifeform: the fact that this q gets asked at all, is proof that the network does not actually rise to the level of full automatism.
mod6: Ok, yeah. I still need to go back and re-read the ~last week of logs so I'm up to speed.
asciilifeform: consider the frequent lament 'my node is stuck'. how do you ~know~ that ~yours~ is stuck, and not the world.
asciilifeform: ( if were working strictly 'by the net rules', no one would ever do this, 'i have a node, it knows what the world height is', but this is not the actual practice )
asciilifeform: even the act of looking at the heights of other nodes, with naked eye, when syncing your own, is a primitive form of checkpointism.
asciilifeform: ( and i'll add that 'i sync all my new noades from existing ones' is a form of checkpointing , yer still weaseling out of using 'strictly clean' http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-22#1865227 mechanism , there )
asciilifeform: the only practical defense against this is checkpointing, afaik. ( the prb folx tried to defend with 'orphanage', but with finite ram this does not actually solve the problem in the general case, simply ensures that different noades will wedge at different times )
asciilifeform: mod6: in fact, and iirc i discussed this 2y or so ago in the l0g, by my current understanding of the reorg mechanism, it is possible to wedge ~any~ noad by throwing a specially- 'retro'-mined block with a higher work delta than the 'genuine' one at a particular point. then reorg dun trigger at all.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu was not fond of 'cement', because sees (correctly) that it is a kludge. but imho given the single-threaded classical trb, it or something like it, is necessary
mod6: right, could be worth a test and perhaps the 'cement' suggestion.
asciilifeform: theoretically it'll get reorg'd when honest noad later connects. but afaik this has not been tested, i personally do not know if a 1000+ -blocks reorg will succeed.
asciilifeform: speaking moar generally of replays -- because of the idjit method shitoshi used for block-gettin', where 1 peer can ~monopolize connection for just about as long as he wants -- a stock trb node , syncing from empty, is in fact in a position to be fed just about arbitrarily long replay chain. which is why my interest in sane checkpoint variant.
asciilifeform: mod6: either that or '1 man band', mined'em all, and forgot to set his clock..
asciilifeform: the 1 puzzler is why the derp back-dated'em; if the related tardstalk piece is to be believed, the particular shitcoin did not exist in 2015
asciilifeform: mod6: the shitnoad sends ~same miniature blox , pretty much, again & again
mod6: So looks like idiot kept sending the same ones over and over.
mod6: That they were captured at different times. I dug through the pcap for the 'prev' hashes that were listed in the paste, all the ones that I spot checked were in there.
asciilifeform: though it is possible that some or all of'em were received again and ended up in there, later
mod6: asciilifeform: can you confirm that the bastard blocks that were listed here http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/4GZTO/?raw=true were caputred at the same time as the pcap that you pasted?
BingoBoingo: The declaration that one isn't a pink manhooker isn't something the Uruguayos would say, but they understand it.
asciilifeform: arguably the only place where 'proper' spanish is cervantes. errybody else some variant of real-life
BingoBoingo: Bad spanish comes in two flavors: Intelligible and Unitelligable. The Uruguayos have all sorts of sayings that aren't translatable to proper spanish, which they use for ingroup signallying. This means bad spanish intentionally used against the Uruguayos and Uruguayas needs to be A/B tested.
asciilifeform: in ru prison tradition, was sorta opposite formula, when they lowered a d00d into pederasty, would give'im a gurl's name, but still address as 'he'
BingoBoingo: In this case though not gramatically correct, the gender mismatch is intentional for emphasis.
BingoBoingo: I also tell them I am a fan of Bolnasoro in Brazil. And to that I respond "No soy un puto rosa"
Mocky: now if trump had promised to build a wall around D.C., then may have voted lol
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: nao i'm curious, how do they typically respond
BingoBoingo: I tell all the Latinas who will listen that I voted Trump
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> no dude, they have fambly there who love it. they would love too! << Ask them if their families voted for Trump or if they actually instead hate America
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> otherwise it gets stuck in customs i hear << BWAHAHAHAHAHA, Very Uruguay of them
lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: i can't picture how it could hurt, tho. having a working artifact in yer hand readily distinguishes you from the indian 'my CREATIVE BIZNISS IDEA!111' folx.
Mocky: i'll hit some people up tonight and I'll be hanging with a few dozen westerners tomorrow night at the four seasons, i'll bring it up there too
asciilifeform: i.e. whether it is even possible to get Mocky a box prior to his expedition time running out
asciilifeform: what i dun presently know is, just how fascist are the customs in Mockystan
asciilifeform: Mocky: in usa i found that i had to get a postbox simply to get a lease for office that has own postbox, 'catch-22', but possib. other places moar sane
Mocky: you need a physical office space to be inspected to get the trade license and open company, so external not needed for that
asciilifeform: my logic : seems like Mocky is in one of those orcistans where the heathens luvv shiny things.
Mocky: otherwise it gets stuck in customs i hear
Mocky: I think I can open an account with some specific company locally and have receive dhl shipments. it's how they get stuff from amazon
Mocky: they have money here and there are a lot things that are notdumb. especially when compared to africa
Mocky: also i was surprised to hear nigerians talking about how dumb nigerians are. how they have money in nigeria but they are to dumb to do anything useful with it
asciilifeform: father: 'hey, sister wrote, luvvvs it'
Mocky: unrelatedly, the miami in these filipinas and africans is off the fucking charts. they literally cannot sniff even a whiff of 'america aint that great' without spitting out 'america is the best, how could you even think it's not'
asciilifeform: again for the l0gz/n00bz: this worx in practice, even if 2 boxes are started off same power supply, because of inescapable variation in the size of the power intake capacitors on each FG
asciilifeform: Mocky ( and for the l0gz ) -- if it aint obvious from the FG src : the thing spends first six ticks of the clock on powerup listening for signs of a working external clock on CLK pin; if it finds one (i.e. it's pulled high on board, and can only fall low if there's a 'master' connected) it becomes 'slave' until powerdown.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 15:46 asciilifeform: Mocky: come to think of it, the FG algo is applicable: the endpoint who speaks first, gets to be 'left', and the one who ack's first -- 'right'.
asciilifeform: lessee what mircea_popescu thinks; this is a classic example of the type of knot i rely on him to cut.
asciilifeform: complicating proggy simply because there's 1 broken system somewhere, is not imho a winning proposition.
asciilifeform: the chance of deadlock is vanishingly small, esp. if you include a random delay during power-up, so that even if for some perverse reason 'a' and 'b' are started off the same power supply , they cannot deadlock.
asciilifeform: Mocky: come to think of it, the FG algo is applicable: the endpoint who speaks first, gets to be 'left', and the one who ack's first -- 'right'.
asciilifeform: ( the FG master/slave mechanism is only used in test benching )
asciilifeform: now, for an erryday piece of critical gear like otptron, i'd prefer an algo that ~provably~ terminates with correct (i.e. opposite polarity) pair, rather than 'oh it never ties in practice cuz no 2 crystals are exactly same' thing.
asciilifeform: sorta like the ancient algo where two boys hold a stick and break it
asciilifeform: Mocky: relatedly to 'who's top' algo , you may find the method illustrated in FG to be of interest, http://btcbase.org/patches/fg-genesis/tree/fg.v#L269 ( tldr : it's a straight 'foot race', and, for physical reasons, never ends in a 'tie' in practice )
mod6: *nod* I was a bit curious as to what type of slop they were trying to feed us.
asciilifeform: mod6: dun burn much time on it, i suspect there is nothing much of interest ( they break some of the protocol format, but not, as far as i can tell, to any interesting end )
mod6: oops. somehow, copied the wrong thing
asciilifeform: mod6: lemme know if you see sumthing interesting that i missed. but seems to me that my earlier hypothesis holds, they were forkolade noades.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 01:51 mod6: Gotta catch up on l0gz and the rest. In particular, I'm just about nowhere on my task of creating answers to FAQs/Common Questions about the Foundation itself. I'll be working on that this week as a main priority - will post what I have for review/comments/corrections in #trilema by end of weekend.
asciilifeform: incidentally, https://www.adacore.com/gems/gem-59 apparently exists, tho i confess that i really dislike the idea of automatic converters for coad
asciilifeform: bvt: you'll find that the gnat-specific packages are ~entirely liquishit -- check out what passes for 'gnat.sockets' for instance.
asciilifeform: bvt: thing is, there's a non-negotiable must-have subset of posix, that ~cannot~ be implemented as pure ada. e.g. the udp structs liquishit. or , as we learned from bvt , open()
asciilifeform: Mocky: i can think of several algos for reliably picking 'left' and 'right' without any manual config ( recall, 'a' and 'b' have the cards slotted in, in opposite orders, call'em pad 'x' and 'y' , 'a' has x-y and b y-x -- both get same final xor, x xor y, is used as pad p )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-24 13:40 asciilifeform: briefly revisiting http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865463 >> nobody noticed the omission, but i oughta've pointed out that 'a' and 'b' gotta proceed from opposite ends of the pad, when sending, otherwise risk collision
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-24#1865522 >> plus then you either have to reverse the pad for one, or maintain a bit of state for top-eater vs bottom-eater
bvt: i would much prefer going pure ada for a subset of posix. otherwise it's the same as relying on GNAT-specific packages -- it exports plenty of interesting stuff, not sure about networking though.
asciilifeform: the .c absolutely gotta be bug-free tho, or it sinks yer whole proggy
asciilifeform: my orig attempt at the udp thing tried to stick with purely pragma Import(...), but the result was definitely not portable, and so i rewrote it like-so
bvt: yes, i skimmed through it. all these sockaddr structures would be a bitch to do in ada. this is why i believe it would be useful to define, what subset we'd need.
asciilifeform: if it weren't for struct sockaddr_in..., struct in_addr..., i'd've simply imported the calls via pragma Import(C, ... )
asciilifeform: there is afaik no clean way of portably eating the ridiculous c structs without actually including a .c component.
asciilifeform: bvt: didja get a chance to read my udp lib ? the structs thing is the reason for http://btcbase.org/patches/udp_errata_asciilifeform/tree/udp/libudp/unix_udp.c .
bvt: well, for the library that i had in mind was strictly a database of flag name->int mappings, syscall numbers, maybe structure definitions.
bvt: but so far it's not clear what the subset should be, what to do about C structures (with problems like e.g. https://www.openwall.com/lists/musl/2017/01/25/1)
asciilifeform: but currently seems to me that it is impossible to write a portable proggy that uses open() without a .c that #include's the system's flags
asciilifeform: bvt: i have a variant of this in ffa, and yet another subset in mmap
bvt: i would try to make some sort of write-up about this. i wanted to suggest making a Ada library that exposes a subset of Linux system calls without C code, because i clearly needed it for the tempfile.
asciilifeform: with culprit being the assumption of standard open() flags
asciilifeform: bvt: search turned up plenty of folx on the net wondering why their $proggy (all kinds) dun go on mips
bvt: and the amount of damage is ridiculous, even errno codes are different on mips.
bvt: asciilifeform: re open flags: this is exactly what i was pointing at. should have made the text bold, i guess. if all these flags numbers were the same, i would have used the syscall wrapper functions.
asciilifeform: tldr : the shitcoin people are in fact pretending to compatibility with ordinary btc protocol; even going as far as using unchanged version strings, and backdated block timestamps ( of course trb rejects the liquishit in O(1) , but it is entertaining )
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 21:12 asciilifeform: will post the pcap once it fattens up.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 21:41 bvt: a better write-up on the vpatch temporary file creation: http://bvt-trace.net/2018/10/vpatch-replacing-mktemp3
a111: Logged on 2018-10-23 18:01 asciilifeform: in an asynchronous scheme, you gotta explicitly divide the pad in halves, one for a->b and one for b->a, so as to exclude any possibility of either end making use of a block of pad that may have already been made use of by other side meanwhile.
asciilifeform: briefly revisiting http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865463 >> nobody noticed the omission, but i oughta've pointed out that 'a' and 'b' gotta proceed from opposite ends of the pad, when sending, otherwise risk collision
billymg: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865377 << BingoBoingo: nice. imo it's a great way to respond. "oh a CoC? why yes, great idea! in fact let's take it one step further" -- a sort of embrace, extend, extinguish strategy
BingoBoingo: In other barometers: https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/estudiantes-de-magisterio-denuncian-comentarios-homofobicos-y-racistas-de-profesora-20181023185258
asciilifeform: i suspected shitfork, when realized that the 501 blox gotta be a few kB most, ea. -- my pipe couldn't disgorge 501 human-sized blox in <2sec
asciilifeform: offers approx same ev as hunting rats in sewer for their skins
asciilifeform: ( bullet still costs a day's work, or so, to set up shitnode-of-the-day, then find some exchange where it can even be traded , etc )
asciilifeform: suggests that the typical shitcoin-of-the-day nowadays is a bch-style phork, rather than 2013-style 'prb with genesis swapped'
asciilifeform: i gotta wonder nao, if prb's tx checker is porous enuff that it actually relays these !
asciilifeform: 'The installation is a three-by-three-meter replica of steel and wood reproducing the coin minting machine used by Spanish settlers in the gold and silver mines of PotosÃ, (Bolivia). The mill mints physical coins that are automatically registered in a blockchain...' blah blah
asciilifeform: defo seems to be a misconfigured/maliciously-configged shitfork noad, none of the tx hashes in the inv's line up with anything from human planet
asciilifeform: update : so far only buncha addr's, getdata's, inv's, from *176, in the glue trap.
bvt: a better write-up on the vpatch temporary file creation: http://bvt-trace.net/2018/10/vpatch-replacing-mktemp3
asciilifeform: will post the pcap once it fattens up.
asciilifeform: i admit that i'm pretty curious re just what it is that they're offering up as blox.
mod6: asciilifeform: i appreciate you passing around the offending ips
asciilifeform: would be interesting to learn wtf is inside those blox. but i dun currently have the box configured to save liquishit ( no conceivable disk would suffice )
asciilifeform: ( tho traditionally these have some means of sticking with their own kind, possibly this has changed )
asciilifeform: conceivably, these could be forkcoin noades behind a nat
asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/4GZTO/?raw=true << raw barfola. observe that NONE of the 'prev' hashes match any known bitcoin block .