thestringpuller: so lets say the system in use is not a secure viewer, but a device is available (some mobile thingy of some sort), that is a secure viewer, but is unable to do heavy lifting. just reads from drive and displays it. so the use case I imagine is someone is sent important "please read now" encrypted memo to some dude who is boarding a flight. he uses one of the surely compromised internet cafe computers and his hand caradno to decr
thestringpuller: more in the sense*
mircea_popescu: seems airgap means you're not touching some other system neh.
thestringpuller: i was thinking of the scenario of having to absolutely read an encrypted memo but only have a potentially compromised/malicious system available
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adlai: plenty of cogent and together people dedicate their time to charity, but it's not a terribly rewarding investment
adlai: if i were to specifically attack that, i'd start from the assumption that a cogent and together person necessarily occupies their time in an activity which lends itself to monetary investment
assbot: Logged on 11-12-2014 07:19:05; mircea_popescu: fluffypony understand what i'm saying here. you seem cogent and together, you're working on this whatever thing i can't readily evaluate. i'd consider putting a few coins into it ; i can even ignore the involvement of whatever known derp on the theory that on the long term sterile works itself out of metal anyway so who cares.
adlai: which one, the one against long-term investments in altcoins?
mircea_popescu: adlai that wasn't the most organised argument i ever read :p
adlai: and then the guys who bagheld xmr through the great bear market of 2014 all take a group dump on the people who bought non-scarce goods
adlai: and the amazing tech gets copied by btc
adlai: for example, this monero thing... let's say the tech is remarkably successful, and as this becomes evident, the value grows TENFOLD
adlai: i'm just being scoffy at the prospect that an altcoin offers tangible benefits beyond, say, speculating on the coin's value without actually holding any
adlai: treating it as a whalerpg where you take turns playing bull and bear is another story
BingoBoingo: I think pete_dushenski is out lobbyist up there
mircea_popescu: the years I spend in Toronto."
mircea_popescu: meanwhile back at crazy shit ranch : "I am a twenty-year old sub living with my dom in Sask in a 24/7 D/s relationship. For the past two years I have been training as a sub and saving money for school. In the summer I will be relocating to Toronto for college in the fall. My Sir will find a Dom for me there with the hopes of finding me someone to stay with while I study. In exchange I will serve him as his slave for
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, it gotta somehow make business sense. and the problem is, if it doesn't make it for me it doesn't make it in general, because what exact particular assumptions got baked in ? nothing much. if there isn't a good answer to "so what's my btc buy me" other than handwave, there's probably no better answer to "what's your time buy you" other than, whatever, "playing a mmorpg".
mircea_popescu: fluffypony understand what i'm saying here. you seem cogent and together, you're working on this whatever thing i can't readily evaluate. i'd consider putting a few coins into it ; i can even ignore the involvement of whatever known derp on the theory that on the long term sterile works itself out of metal anyway so who cares.
BingoBoingo: fluffypony: Maybe It's the robitussin, but without a hard cap on supply how do we break the "new" world
mircea_popescu: and why would anyone else then ?
BingoBoingo: No point in it unless there's a cap
mircea_popescu: well no, so far i gather the contrary : i'm guaranteed to not see any mid or longm term return
fluffypony: well the current price is 0.00109 to the BTC, and there are just over 5 mil coins at the moment
fluffypony: so there isn't a total
fluffypony: we have infinite tail emission, the block reward value of which hasn't been set as yet
fluffypony: of the current number of coins?
fluffypony: poloniex has the highest volume
fluffypony: well anyway, the cryptography interests me most of all, and there's some cool stuff we're doing
BingoBoingo: I mean castles are basically the motorola 68k of fortifications
BingoBoingo: I just like the idea of castles, like mudkips
BingoBoingo: Oh that's right, you saw the castle
fluffypony: or the software architecture we're building out
fluffypony: if you're interested in the cryptography of it
BingoBoingo: Eh, what's the differences. The interesting stuff? I'm fighting a generic winter illness and slowly realizing a bottle of cold medicine is supposed to contain multiple doses.
fluffypony: at the moment no minimum mixin level is enforced, so ostensibly an output in the utxoset can actually be spent at some point with a mixin of 0, and thus is *actually* spent
fluffypony: sure, it's a cryptocurrency, not based on the Bitcoin source, no GUI at present
mircea_popescu: + i accidentally sent asciilifeform's line about 2nd code and pots to some chick i'm talking with on the side. she's new and was just probing as to what's in principle required of new chicks.
ben_vulpes: bring in the social justice police, this society is out of hand
mircea_popescu: this just took a turn for the weird - erryone discussing me in terms im unfamiliar with
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asciilifeform: the concept of joyous, exuberant monster being too terrifying for the retirement pot candidates, naturally
mircea_popescu: beating the women i love is more work than i feel like as it is.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller eh let it excise itself. why should i do the work for people i don't even like.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: the cancer must be excised and disposed. Although it may be in remission...
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> this is the correct use for the 'i dun wanna learn a second programming language' folks. << liek the ppl that want everything to be lisp ? :D
mircea_popescu: can't they just stick to reddit, wikipedia et all ?
ben_vulpes: those of us who think it not, kindly invited to pleb elsewhere i gather.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: but anything which merely appears impossibly difficult, rather than provable waste of time, is a matter for folks who think it worth trying
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: understand correctly. actual 'impossibility proofs' - are valuable. (consider laws of thermodynamics; or, more fundamentally, mathematical concepts - e.g., irrationality of sqrt(2))
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: that's one hell of an assumption, that the task is doable.
mircea_popescu: undata> "Javascript is actually in demand now for good reason. << "we are stupid but don't like to admit it" being the reason.
mircea_popescu waves at all the idiots reading here, imagining that http://trilema.com/2011/romanul-si-marea/ was never written, and one can just steal the octopus' suckers to put onhis own fingers.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it doesn't even matter if you do. if you're bothering to think about the subject, your job is to assume that the job is doable and try - forever
ben_vulpes: and what about that portland lawyer whose fingerprints appeared miraculously at the scene?!
mircea_popescu: but at least the derp dept moved from "blockchain technology" to "bitcoin technology".
mircea_popescu: <thestringpuller> You can't make this shit up. << word.
asciilifeform: when he utters it, we are to understand that he is ready for the biodiesel retirement pot
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: in that spirit, e.g., a physicist -never- gets to utter the phrase 'you need a universe to model this'
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> usg has more-or-less 'sat' upon the idle rich << the 'idle' (what does this mean? << the early modern period had ample supply of this particular type. literally, idle.
ben_vulpes: what is there to explain about turbulence?!
undata: I can't think of an instance in history where blunt instruments such as these were wielded effectively.
asciilifeform: extermination is far too kind a fate for them.
asciilifeform: not for the crime of being dull, but for militant stupidity and the active poisoning of all that was ever good and bright.
undata: thestringpuller: the pattern in my family (at least for the first male kid) has been to impress upon them the value and necessity of hard work, and then to drop them into the world to fend for themselves at the appropriate time
asciilifeform: this is the correct use for the 'i dun wanna learn a second programming language' folks.
thestringpuller: brutal: "Witnesses of the camp state that the camp took the life of some 380,000 people in the 10 years of its existence. Most notable about the camp is the fact that uranium mining was conducted here manually without any protective gear whatsoever. The average miner's life span lasted only months here"
thestringpuller: or rather undercover billionaire?
thestringpuller: i.e. prince and the pauper?
thestringpuller: sure you don't sling crack to get lunch money, but you hustle in other scenarios
thestringpuller: undata: but this isn't the only factor. unimpoverished children can still amount to hardworking individuals, just with different contexts.
undata: thestringpuller: it's the experience of starting with nothing and struggling ahead that makes an adult
asciilifeform: the more realistic fate is butugychag.
thestringpuller: They glorify antics from sitcoms such as "Workaholics" finding ways to be lazy but still get by.
thestringpuller: Also American Derp is not hardworking, or truly values hardwork. The serf likely does (imo at least).
asciilifeform: i will add that agricultural slavery is an optimistic scenario for the folks in question.
undata: ah, that's the aim
asciilifeform: difference is that the agricultural serf is not a burden upon his betters.
undata: this serfdom thing doesn't sound any better than what the man behind the curtain has produced in the garden-variety american derp
thestringpuller: The ones that brand you a fuck-up if you don't pass "the entrance exam" of which you only have on opportunity to pass.
asciilifeform: (see also orwell's essay re: how the telegraph was the ultimate doom of british empire)
asciilifeform: why did british nobles send their children to india?
thestringpuller: this is why chinese people send their children to america
asciilifeform: what is to be done with them is a question not for you and i, but, in all likelihood, for the chinese ministry of biodiesel
asciilifeform: other thing is, these people only exist as merely one symptom of a long series of catastrophes
thestringpuller: well someone who is going to exclaim nonsense about JS being useful to "understand code" should be stuffed in the bowels of some buildings as a serf
undata: don't know... my mother was single raising me for part of my early childhood
asciilifeform: the nearly escape-proof kind.
thestringpuller: they seem more "reasonable"
thestringpuller: well at least you can bribe the guards in a russian prison
undata: "Javascript is actually in demand now for good reason. Node.js is a powerful tool for specific applications and you no longer need to know 2 languages if you go the full JS stack." << I call this single-step reasoning. It's everywhere.
asciilifeform: it is a profound tragedy that these 'people' ever saw a computer.
undata: where is the embarassment
undata: underabundance of shame these days
thestringpuller: Like what the actual fuck?
thestringpuller: Ryan X. Charles: "I discovered bitcoin on May 13, 2011 and never recovered. After developing a reputation as the bitcoin guy at the physics department, I eventually quit my physics PhD program and went full-time bitcoin. I worked for the best bitcoin company in the world, BitPay"
asciilifeform: or not 100, but the epsilon remnant are 'idle' in the economic sense but fighting guerilla war of one kind or another and can't really afford cultural largesse
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: idle rich << point was, there are still plenty of arbitrarily rich and arbitrarily idle folks. they simply happen to be retarded. afaik - 100% of them, rather than 99 or whatever the historic norm was.
asciilifeform: in number, they require fresh horses, and must only be made at decisive moments.'
asciilifeform: 'It is a profoundly erroneous truism, repeated by all copy-books and by eminent people when they are making speeches, that we should cultivate the habit of thinking of what we are doing. The precise opposite is the case. Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking about them. Operations of thought are like cavalry charges in a battle they are strictly limited
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> usg has more-or-less 'sat' upon the idle rich << the 'idle' (what does this mean? presumably, not occupied with directing a megacorp?) rich still exist. they spend on coke and orbital flights with hookers, not rebuilding of computing. << The conversion of cocaine from productivity aide to party favor has probably been one of the msot damaging transitions of this last hundred years
undata: this mental conversation I have about "yes, pick up the cup and have a sip" happens substantially later than the action to do so is already in motion
undata: asciilifeform: the idea is that people can be shown to have made a decision before they are capable of reporting that decision to anyone
undata: asciilifeform: pretty sure this is the experiment I'm thinking of 40hz.net/david_2011.pdf
cazalla: seems that is for xbox credit whatever the fuck that is
cazalla: i'm not that familiar with it, does this let you buy credits or something thestringpuller ?
cazalla: thestringpuller, sure, i was planning to do so but i checked out my missus account and there is no bitcoin option, maybe not for aus yet
thestringpuller: cazalla: can I write up the scoop?
undata: asciilifeform: this sounds like the thing dennett has said about "pandemonium"
undata: it seems the mind has plenty of processes running on autopilot which can be mindfully observed, but often aren't
undata: asciilifeform: I'm more referring to things like, say you notice in the workplace that you have been for the last year in direct competition with another worker
asciilifeform: undata: the sense of "myself" in my head is a very small chunk << see the crackpot work 'society of mind' by marvin minsky.
undata: if things bigger than skulls are conscious, I wouldn't be qualified to comment on them
asciilifeform: undata, ben_vulpes: aside from the titanic effort involved in using mac for serious work, that machine is far too large and heavy for the kind of bed computing contemplated earlier.
thestringpuller: hopefully I don't by xbox live or something in the process :P
cazalla: thestringpuller, thanks, no xbox or microsoft account here
undata: that there are drives, goals, whole projects somewhere lower-level that I'm barely conscious of
undata: decimation: veering into woo-woo territory, but in meditation I've often gotten the sense that the sense of "myself" in my head is a very small chunk of what I am
decimation: asciilifeform: and fearing the ai holocaust
asciilifeform: usg has more-or-less 'sat' upon the idle rich << the 'idle' (what does this mean? presumably, not occupied with directing a megacorp?) rich still exist. they spend on coke and orbital flights with hookers, not rebuilding of computing.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: macbook air << funny that you mention that machine, because i have the original model. it mostly gathers dust.
decimation: often themselves - self-appointment to what is god and what isn't
decimation: undata: I think there is a 'yearning for meaning' inside of each human, and that generally drives them to choose a god of some kind
undata: decimation: from a certain perspective, imagining things that do not exist and creating them is delusion-fueled activity
undata: decimation: I've wondered whether our capacity for creativity is exactly what tends to rot the brain
undata: however, it might be adaptive to have a touch of it; would I keep working towards escaping the gravity well if I wasn't certain I can accomplish it?
undata: takes vigilance to do otherwise
undata: ah yeah, then agreed doubly
decimation: undata: but this is exactly the 'revelation' point I was making above
undata: " Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.
undata: what does god have against the sea?
undata: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
undata: that's the new earth or whatever
undata: I don't know how scientific the Jungian stuff is
assbot: Revelation 21:9-21 NKJV - The New Jerusalem - Then one of the - Bible Gateway ... ( http://bit.ly/1vRQBfd )
assbot: Logged on 19-03-2014 19:04:08; asciilifeform: and, finally, his moment arrived! von Kármán surrendered his orange ticket, took a deep breath, and said, "God, explain turbulence." Theodore von Kármán spent the rest of eternity burning in Hell.'
undata wonders whether there aren't things resembling heaven, hell and the other very basic concepts rolling around in his subconscious
decimation: the Bible is certainly unclear on the specifics. I imagine it is a place where one can ask God wtf he was thinking
mircea_popescu: i dunno, the traditional heaven (dude, it's like a really large field, we can camp and hike! and graze!)
undata: probably crudely useful to imagine "best" and "worst" possible circumstances when you don't have many concepts to rub together
mircea_popescu: you can dress 'em whichever way you want, but in the end a monkey merely trained to recognise the letters is not a scholar, and just so these "modern" men and women are in fact quite primitive.
decimation: right, but in this case the 'feeble minded' are also the supposed captains of technology/science
mircea_popescu: decimation the magical mental needs of the feeble minded don't go away simply because they are surrounded by / live in a society based on more advanced thoughts.
undata: decimation: the "singularity" is precisely technobabble heaven
decimation: so I find these AI doomsayers highly amusing. most of them would laugh at a Christian's claim of revelation (knowledge which comes neither through induction nor deduction) but are more than happy to jump on board the eliezer yudkowsky tard train because "I know it is true"
ben_vulpes: sounds like portland, mircea_popescu. irrelevant on the global scale but 'omg have you tried these donuts my brother makes?!'
mircea_popescu: sooo buenos aires has decided to set itself on fire because some local team won the local football cup.
decimation: he had a whole thread about the london whale and associated retardation
decimation: yeah that's an interesting way to put it. asians would generally place the 'good of the company ' in front of their dignity
mircea_popescu: i guess this is the us' great eastern visit.
mircea_popescu: i knew the moment the japanese started with that weird, and the us libtard class started paying attention, i knew this was coming.
decimation: yeah I like this guy's blog, he edits the mainstream media
mircea_popescu: lol. they copied that off japan.
decimation: apparently obamacare 'allows' employers to give you a 'discount' off your 'insurance' premiums if you enroll in their hitlerjunge programes
mircea_popescu: and the pope did a lot better cca 7-900 ad too.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: usg annihilated science to an extent no one ever, i suspect, thought of as possible. << lol not so. again the chinese lead. they burned the books 2x.
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would i write on a platform that doesn't run grep o.O
mircea_popescu: but otherwise, had this been centrally planned, it'd have worked as well as that whore cixi's trains.
mircea_popescu: the only great fortune of europe in the industrial age was that they copied the dutch approach (as the tulip mania was coming to a close, dutch courts simply refused to intervene in any capacity and "Fuck you!")
mircea_popescu: (they put a group of men in exclusive charge of battlefield rifle use)
decimation: it is hard to convince the giant that allowing space for the midgets would be good for him
mircea_popescu: just like the ottomans ended up "the sick man of europe" through a particular choice of centralisation
mircea_popescu: and so they went nowhere.
mircea_popescu: consider that china had helicopter designs cca 500ad, it had known of gunpowder for 3k years by the time we finally heard of it and they were writing alchemy treatises before homer was even walking the earth.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: if rifles could only be produced in 12 places on the planet, most fighting would still be conducted with spears and axes. <<< there's a lot of depth to this observation. for instance :
undata: mircea_popescu: naw I was raised by a proper cold-warrior; they exist
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undata: expressing anger having become socially unacceptable is one of the signs that the US is dead
undata: definitely, so they can file suit when the male programmers curse and throw things, which is only natural when you're up to your eyes in shit
undata: programming tends to piss me off; pacing is the release valve
mircea_popescu: im happy thinking there, can write sitting later.
mircea_popescu: i honestly do not wish to write either walking or laying down.
undata: both of which could be seen as parasitic destroyers of anything that smells remotely innovative in the US economy
mircea_popescu: all the bad things teh french revolution hated, like you know, lord X who owns property but "doesn't give anything back to society"
decimation: usg has more-or-less 'sat' upon the idle rich
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: would have to give enough of a shit to fund, but not enough to attempt to direct. this will happen shortly after pigs fly. << incidentally, this is why the idle rich are so important irl.
asciilifeform: all the way to elaborate, $1k+ hydraulic lift desks with position memory.
undata: mircea_popescu: I prefer standing desks; pacing and thinking go well together
mircea_popescu: undata that's pretty much google yeah. and also everyone else trying to copy them (fb etc)
decimation: asciilifeform: I think you would need 'chorded handles' so you could lay your arms on the bed
decimation: they gave me a 'free subscription' to 'investment training' - with seminars (not free!)
decimation: no one else writes about the downside of compilers as a technology (to my knowledge)
decimation: if there is anything this channel emphasizes, it seems to me that it is the downside of what appears to be 'the good'
asciilifeform: there is always a little leak.
asciilifeform: or an indoor space where it had been in use in the past week.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> i wouldn't mind a car that runs on farts, if it were possible at home. << can you imagine hpow that'd go ? how it'd smell ? how uncomfortable the gas pipe'd get ?
asciilifeform: s-expression syntax, for reasons described in the 'brick' essay.
asciilifeform: everyone i've ever spoken with on the subject ended up mentally mutilating it to fit his von neumman and synchronous cpu preconceptions.
ben_vulpes: fluffypony: you're in with the monetas crowd, right?
asciilifeform: and you would not stand to make any of it back. it would have to be a purely narcissistic pyramid built for the self-aggrandizement of some king.
asciilifeform: as if after a global thermonuking.
asciilifeform: undata: i can't even begin to say, because the expense involved is literally astronomical.
undata: I'm still interested to hear an estimate on the R&D cost of an 'actual' computer
asciilifeform: the human zoo's been around for quite some time, yes.
asciilifeform wants to know in what roman text these answers lie.
asciilifeform should like the answer to 'how do i grow single-crystal si in jungle conditions, how do i lay down dopant with ion beam sans high vacuum' etc.
mircea_popescu: the irony of modernity is that there's no shortage of answers. in fact, they're written generally a century ago. just... nobody [knows how to] reads.
decimation: mircea_popescu: I like your romanian poet/french revolution quote. It could almost be used as a motto for the west today
asciilifeform: where do you flee from the planet-devourer -if you want to do science- ?
asciilifeform: note, there was a where to flee.
asciilifeform: the ones with actual education, went off to derp in aryan physics or annenerbe etc.
decimation: usg also stole the "having stolen science"
decimation: asciilifeform: reading about lysenko immediately conjures the 'stierlitz files' where all the nazis had a high-school education
mircea_popescu: mats but there please.
asciilifeform: in contrast, e.g., trofim lysenko's victims were at least intellectually-equipped to understand what was happening to them.
asciilifeform: at least in the english world.
asciilifeform: once you clear away the usg grantsmanship, what mr. mold called 'scientocracy', you realize that actual science mostly 100% stopped around 1960.
asciilifeform: the way i understand it, a 100% open fpga, produced in a thousand factories of mutually-antagonistic owners, is the one and only way to 'open computer.'
decimation: and it isn't 'movable type' in the sense that someone with a brain can arrange the internals to serve his needs
asciilifeform: the closest thing anyone has conceived off to movable type re: chip design is the fpga concept.
asciilifeform: back to chip thread, for a spell - we're roughly in the situation of ancient china, which had printing but not movable type
asciilifeform: !s you and the atomic bomb
asciilifeform: if rifles could only be produced in 12 places on the planet, most fighting would still be conducted with spears and axes.
asciilifeform: the secret boojum of chip business is that anything whose production is inherently centralized to that degree, is almost divinely ordained to suck.
decimation: ironically the us got its start pirating machine designs from england
asciilifeform: but anyone involved in the patent of algorithms apparatus
decimation: there aren't many fpgas in consumer chips in general
decimation: certainly most of their sales are to usg's layer 2
asciilifeform: i generally tag all of the parties responsible for this state of affairs as agents of usg, whether they would think of themselves as such or not.
asciilifeform: technically if you were to write a logic synthesis tool today, from scratch, it would still be 'warez'
decimation: including the warez for design toolchain?
decimation: well, costs lifetime then
asciilifeform: not if you're the designer