mircea_popescu: the socialist state does not want a normally functioning society, but instead this stellar configuration where the state is at the center,
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: if you were planning to kill someone, would you helpfully tell him first ? << that's not the point. in a normal society, the threat is a fundamental tool to hierarchy building.
mircea_popescu: decimation: why don't these kind of people with a brain just leave the country? <<< i dunno decimation. why don't they ?
mircea_popescu: and let the thing just run unmolested.
mircea_popescu: yeah srsly, just buy another box if you can't stop fucking with it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to be clear, did you stop the original thing again to run a something else ?
asciilifeform puts the traditional turd back on
mircea_popescu: atmosphere already supplies most of the squishing.
asciilifeform: 12 dollars for a box that can be driven off the net by blowing on it
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Opiates are not barbiturate, and heroin withdrawal indeed often only makes people wish they were dying.
asciilifeform: likewise, the orphans thing is an easy ddos vector
asciilifeform: enemy will search far and wide for stories of one of these things catastrophically losing
mircea_popescu: welcome the filth that is practical bitcoin into your heart, ascii
asciilifeform: not merely concerning the db
asciilifeform: other thing is, it's quadratic.
asciilifeform: the question does remain, however - what is to be done with toy node
asciilifeform: (unless you read the bugger)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform as i said before, it's a kudge to fix another kludge. we don't really wnat any of it.
asciilifeform: but if it has antecedents, the chain of those is followed to the end and the terminus is dropped.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell phillipsjk "run into the ground" ? lay off the pipe, man. you don't have enough disposable income to cover my harem's feminine hygiene products bill.
asciilifeform: what they did is to set a limit (default == 750) of 'orphan blocks' (terribly confusing term, nothing whatsoever to do with orphaned chains)
asciilifeform: (as found in the enemy code)
asciilifeform: i will describe the algorithm here.
asciilifeform: test of hypothesis.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: quite certainly not meant to go in the tree under any circumstances.
metsuno: we had a very lenghty discussion about bitcoin. you told me about the awesomeness of openbsd. i helped you pretend-assassinate that guy.
asciilifeform: by folks who actually understand what they are doing.
asciilifeform: a backport of the orphan trimming mechanism.
asciilifeform: for therealbitcoin
asciilifeform: i just began live-fire test of the first really dangerous patch
BingoBoingo: It isn't so bad, but you need to keep antacid tablets on you. The last thing you want is world induced dyspepsia affecting your composure.
metsuno: What does it feel like to be the eaters of worlds?
mircea_popescu: we are the eaters of worlds.
mircea_popescu: <metsuno> The constant openness of this channel, and everyone on it, freightens me slightly. << so it should.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
metsuno: The constant openness of this channel, and everyone on it, freightens me slightly.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: But in American popular culture there is a carefully groomed myth through all kinds of fictitious media that in criminal proceedings a plea always results in some form of mercy from the courts when all it does is keep the cattle line moving through the feedlot.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: That's really all it seems like except for those who accept a side of pederastry as they plea
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 'Явка с повинной облегчает совесть и удлиняет срок.' (ru. jailhouse proverb: 'a guilty plea lightens your conscience and lengthens your sentence.')
scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2015/01/barret-brown-the-myth-of-plea-leniency/
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski: ^for the non-romanian-speaking poker players among us << sheeit check that out
assbot: The woes of Altcoin, or why there is no such thing as "cryptocurrencies" pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1ySxvXi )
mircea_popescu: felipelalli http://trilema.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies/
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: a number of locales are in the process of raising fuel tax, yours may be one of them
BingoBoingo: cazalla: I though your government was still shipping them that recreational 87 octane
cazalla: BingoBoingo, that'd be the british, they'd bury the abo kids in the sand and kick their heads off
asciilifeform: popular with the gurlz? (assange!) - 'rape'
asciilifeform: it's related to the 'cardinal richelieu' culture of having the proverbial six words written by every honest man to hang him by
trinque: can't recall the text of it but really... "school's out forever" level stuff, nothing terrible
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> cazalla: what's the perfect job for intelligent, resourceful folks shut out of the normal economy by demented regime ? << Very interested in answer to this question.
asciilifeform: cazalla: what's the perfect job for intelligent, resourceful folks shut out of the normal economy by demented regime ?
cazalla: <asciilifeform> if i were a kgb recruiter, i would be searching for these folks. <<< re: that or maybe i just misread chat
mike_c: as update, my 0 orphan test didn't go anywhere (stopped cold at block 500). So I'm trying now with a 50 block orphan cache. I think the right number is proportional to the # of connections you have.
assbot: i'm an OG troll.. this was from 15 years ago today.. i'll still be at it in another 15 years http://t.co/wURemoBAKY
cazalla: asciilifeform, why recruit these folk? fwiw, i never had a single one door knock me and offer a job lol https://twitter.com/captaincazalla/status/559163136096600065
trinque: how do they expect to beat the curiosity out of people for generations and expect that anyone useful will be produced?
mike_c: ok. mine takes ~220 right out of the gate, i assume there are some dials that can lower that?
decimation: "Caldwell was being interviewed as a part of the annual State of the Net Conference in Washington, DC. One minute, she was vilifying encryption; the next, she was sending a message to the country’s citizens and companies that they need to be “more conscious of cybersecurity.” “They need to be assuming they are vulnerable, assuming their data can be taken,” she said"
assbot: Tor and Encryption Have Created a ‘Zone of Lawlessness,’ Justice Department Says | Motherboard ... ( http://bit.ly/1yHdj5V )
decimation: http://motherboard.vice.com/read/tor-and-encryption-have-created-a-zone-of-lawlessness-justice-department-says
mike_c: asciilifeform: what's the target memory usage for this thing?
asciilifeform: if i were a kgb recruiter, i would be searching for these folks.
trinque: they pounded him under some kind of computer terrorism thing, and he could barely find work
trinque: decimation: my biz employs a friend who was thoroughly stomped by the... incidentally texan justice system for sending a prank email
asciilifeform: n the treasury all along
asciilifeform: usa is a tar pit the likes of which cannot be imagined by folks unfamiliar with the subject. those without money - cannot afford to make even basic preparations to flee; those with some - e.g., with a profession - know full well that they are not needed or wanted outside of the usg sphere of influence; those with serious money - understand (or sometimes don't) that their 'wealth' is really a creature of usg, and really lives i
decimation: it's the fact that you will never be employed by a non-sleazy person again
trinque: turns out you have to pay them for the right to cross the imaginary line an odd number of times
decimation: I guess usg is very good at the good cop/bad cop routine in its derpy way
asciilifeform: hard enough -without- the collar
asciilifeform: it's rather puzzling why they haven't reached the point where the condemned is required to wear a wireless microphone, camera, and shock collar
decimation: yes, given that they are a 'program'
asciilifeform: which is then auctioned off
asciilifeform: for non-u.s. folks: gigantic fines like these are imposed in case the condemned owned any real estate
trinque: asciilifeform: "mental health treatment" << we will drug the fuck out of you until you forget your name
assbot: Apple is reportedly giving the Chinese government access to its devices for “security checks” – Quartz ... ( http://bit.ly/1yH6nWA )
trinque: http://qz.com/332059/apple-is-reportedly-giving-the-chinese-government-access-to-its-devices-for-a-security-assessment/
jurov: there's no such thing as private corp. here. anything except for physical person gets their filings published
mike_c: that's one of the perks of "private"
pete_dushenski: jurov hmm. i don't believe that there's a requirement to publish annual reports for private corporations.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: why won't be there ?
pete_dushenski: jurov what corporations are these?
pete_dushenski: mike_c even though i won't be there, that's a sublime idea
pete_dushenski: ^for the non-romanian-speaking poker players among us
mod6: there are some good ones in 2011 too
ben_vulpes: isis taking off after the Kingdom?
jurov: felipelalli there's much more good stuff on trilema
assbot: The woes of Altcoin, or why there is no such thing as "cryptocurrencies" pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Hnsb4e )
mike_c: felipelalli: read this. http://trilema.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies/
felipelalli: cazalla: that's the idea.
trinque: thestringpuller: shit to substance ratio applies
felipelalli: would work similar as silver works to the economy (silver have ~ 777B market cap in a quick search I just made, not too much compared with gold but it is enough). Even if this coin have only 5 or 6% of total bitcoin value, it could be useful to "don't stop the world" when bitcoin is under attack or maintenance. --- If I am wrong about that, I could write about what this is a bad idea and altcoins are bad at all.
felipelalli: to "confiscated" the gold (I heard about that but I have to study more deeply). I came to this conclusion because I know bitcoin can't be available 24/7 forever. It will eventually fail in some situation (for example during a bad made hard fork - either because Gavin's gang spoiled or not) and at that time everybody should already is using some strong second coin to be used as backup during a temporary "bitcoin blackout". I think this coin
felipelalli: material. I know I can search on Google but I guess you guys already have selected that "cherry cake" about this theme. Trying to summarize: my point is to show the importance (or not) of a strong coin to be used together with bitcoin. My initial thesis is that in the future (almost) all wallets will work with two (or maybe 3) totally different coins. The second coin would be so important as silver was in the past when the government tried
felipelalli: Then, I can see you guys are talking something about altcoins (I couldn't follow everything), and by change I've been thinking all day about something related to write an article. Actually I've been thinking about it from a long time ago, and the subject is: << the importance (or not) of a strong "second" coin >> and I'd love to read the most I could about it (altcoins, sidechain, and related) and I'm sure you guys have have a plenty of
BingoBoingo: Surprised it hasn't ate the dogs
cazalla: he's fucking game laying next to it for a nap, pigs are known for rolling and crushing the piglets
trinque: "the duo are now vegans" LOOOL
trinque: ...canadians, they're probably vegan
trinque: so eat the bastard
assbot: This Couple Thought They'd Adopted a Mini Pig—But It Turned Out to Be a 650 Pound Porker - Esther the Wonder Pig - Country Living ... ( http://bit.ly/1HnlnU9 )
BingoBoingo: Adoption horror story http://www.countryliving.com/outdoor/outdoor-living/esther-the-wonder-pig
davout: it's cute and scary at the same time
Naphex: i'm actually liking the lambda syntax :D
davout: the ? is here just to troll you, because question marks are allowed in function names
davout: each time i hear about java i can't help but picture these SomeObjectFactoryBuilder.getObjectFactory().getObject()
trinque: what's the second one?
trinque: oh no, the one above
Naphex: the lambdas?
Naphex: davout: hehe, a bit maybe. because of the method chaining
trinque: yeh I don't tend to like these middle layers
assbot: Reduction (The Java™ Tutorials > Collections > Aggregate Operations) ... ( http://bit.ly/1HnhEWs )
trinque: given the right set of first principles in a system so many things become trivial
trinque: having that you can write queries which output things which can be inserted into the writable system catalog
Naphex: loving the java8 aggregates/stream api http://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/collections/streams/reduction.htm
jurov: schema is subject to change irl and there be dragons. but i presume with btc it isn't a problem, no changes expected
trinque: I once wrote a thing that'd dynamically generate schema for production rules of a given grammer given the relational representation of that grammar, and a dynamic to-string in the other direction
trinque: ^ most underused feature of SQL there is
trinque: and you can write dynamic code even that will build out schema for you because there's a system catalog to reference
trinque: this idea for example that schema's too hard! the fuck?! like building the lack of schema into each query isn't infinitely worse?
trinque: any new database will incrementally do the things sql already did
mats: says the db guy i work with, anyway.
trinque: mats: reasoning of "json therefore..."
trinque: postgres slapped your mother, postgres fucked your spouse
davout: iirc mssql also had the kind of native stuff for xml
davout: trinque: how do you even use that kind of stuff, does it give you tools to actually filter on the json object?
trinque: and all kinds of other foot-blown-off scenarios
trinque: the idea was accountants or somesuch would be able to write SQL
trinque: really relational algebra's the thing, not sql, and someone should redo the former sans the latter
trinque: the sad thing about sql is it tried to be an end user programming language
trinque: mircea_popescu: yeah for the like operator
mircea_popescu: not in bitcoin, not in the world, not in any sense. they're here for feedstock and no more.
mircea_popescu: i know this stupid shit works for the low information voters that constitute the libertard america. figure it out : these people do not actually matter.
mircea_popescu: s actually in israel working for the other side in those same elections, not to mention the mess in the ukraine.
mircea_popescu: really, usg : hire smarter people. i know that obama was wildly successful by promising a bunch of losers unprecedented financial incentives to voice for him, and i know that for that reason it WORKS for him to do all sorts of patently idiotic shit, like most recently claiming that inviting the president of israel "breaks protocol" because it could be seen as supporting a side in the coming elections, while his staff i
mircea_popescu: "here's how we extrapolate data in the past to create a dataset which we arbitrarily call historical, on which we extrapolate a future. and here's how we've fixed it all to look a certain way. no matter that anything put through this mixer would look like a golf club, including most random distributions"
mircea_popescu: this is like... the "global warming" consensus all over again.
mircea_popescu: so... a) correlation = causation ; b)i've doctored the data so correlation = the causation i wish to see.
mircea_popescu: gambling bubble of 2012/2013. This has only a minor effect on the 2014/2015 portion of the data."
mircea_popescu: heh, the gavin idiots. "The chart below illustrates the growth in the number of transactions per day along with Bitcoin's market cap1. There is a strong correlation between the two variables2. If the correlation continues to hold, it suggests that the 1 MB blocksize limit may also limit Bitcoin's future liquidity and adoption. 1I've plotted the number of transactions excluding popular addresses to remove the on-chain
ben_vulpes: i had people calling the bottom at 185
mircea_popescu: the bitcoin-derp community is very... how shall we put this politely...
mircea_popescu: <trinque> I think I'd die laughing if Karpeles was actually involved << his being *completely* uninvolved is improbable on the face.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> chumpatronics aside, they also have the more pedestrian objective of creating GBs of turdsactions that bob about in mempool indefinitely, blowing up memory footprint in non-mitigable ways << in any case that unpleasant side effect.
trinque: they win; they did the standard 1) build Responsive! (TM) website layout with big image at the top 2) kickstarter or the like 3) cut and run
trinque: b-b-but the website has that cool graph animation!
davout: fair trade programmable money on top of the blockchain technology
trinque: these legos suck
trinque: http://etherscripter.com/0-5-1/ << bahahaha
pete_dushenski: http://cdn.oreillystatic.com/en/assets/1/event/130/Ethereum_%20the%20Programmable%20Blockchain%20and%20Decentralized%20Application%20Development%20Platform%20Presentation.pdf << for anyone interested in slides from vitalik's latest conference tawk
pete_dushenski: that'd be funny if karpeles was behind ethereum too
pete_dushenski: Given the mind-twisting complexity of the bitcoin blockchain for an unschooled jury, the defense may yet have plenty of room to inject doubt into the government’s analysis.
pete_dushenski: Remarkably, that total trail of drug-tainted coins represents more than four times as many bitcoins from Silk Road Ulbricht’s laptop than have yet been found and seized in the Silk Road investigation. It’s still not clear from Yum’s testimony where the rest of them ended up.
pete_dushenski: Yum calculated that the transferred coins were worth a total of $13.4 million.
punkman: is that the "moar javascript" guy?
assbot: Inside the Dangerous World of Amateur 'Ninja' Gold Miners | WIRED ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dd1HM9 )
asciilifeform: chumpatronics aside, they also have the more pedestrian objective of creating GBs of turdsactions that bob about in mempool indefinitely, blowing up memory footprint in non-mitigable ways
ben_vulpes: i dislike them
asciilifeform: these two misfeatures are not accidental 'derperies' but have very specific, well-thought-out purpose.
asciilifeform: 'multisig' is yet another chumpatronic engineering structural element, just as nlocktime is (see link)
assbot: Logged on 28-01-2015 05:23:30; *: decimation would prefer to humbly submit to the silent dance of the celestial spheres, as man has done for all known time
jurov: no need to invent the effects of dark matter on subatomic particles
davout: and nlocktime only in the original way, not in gmaxwell's/todd's way
pete_dushenski: nLockTime is a parameter that can be attached to a transaction, that mandates a minimal time (specified in either unix time or block height), that before this time, the transaction cannot be accepted into a block.
mod6: thebitcoin.foundation
mircea_popescu: davout, fluffypony < i don't think bitcoin reference supports either nlocktime or multisig.
mircea_popescu: in case it's not clear, no anything authored by hearn may ever be merged into anything. i don't care what it is. the dog learns to shine shoes or do carpentry or whatever, but he does not work wioth computers anymore.
mircea_popescu: "The BIP was authored by Mike Hearn who also provided the implementation for Bitcoin Core."
mircea_popescu: "btcd wont be supporting the command because it is completely unauthenticated and insecure as pointed out numerous times on the initial pull request. In response to these concerns, a section entitled Authentication was added to the BIP which attempts to address the concerns by simply calling them out along with some potential modifications that could happen in the future. However, we prefer to wait until the t
cazalla: maybe the spanish kid 2 doors down as a kid was not spanish then, nfi, that is what he use to call his grandfather
cazalla: it's spanish for grandfather isn't it?
mircea_popescu: the woodcollector guy spending weeks producing 10s of k's of words a day on the topic of nothing at all being the prototype for how that works.
mircea_popescu: but if you let people off the street do system design you get systems designed by people off the street.
trinque: just expose the damn data; let the thing using the data decide what questions are interesting
trinque: mircea_popescu: 'tis what caused it; not working on the sqlite thing atm tho
mircea_popescu: you fighting the malice mice /
TheNewDeal: he's saying your on the weed
mats: think of the poor souls that are red green colorblind
ben_vulpes: <davout> but it's not possible to get the list of unspent outs given an arbitrary private key << wat
davout: if you're not using the wallet you just know the first out you spend, and you know the next one from the raw tx you create, you still need 'gettxout' to not have to follow the balance around
mod6: think we should switch to the black & hacker-green motif?
davout: but it's not possible to get the list of unspent outs given an arbitrary private key
davout: trinque: if you import a private key into bitcoind you'll get the 'listunspent' call, don't know about btcd
ben_vulpes: yeah i've lost the btcd documentation
trinque: davout: we did not find a way to just "get all utxos" from btcd, could've overlooked something obvious. barring that, I can roll forward from the block where it was first funded and just chew on all the transactions from there forward looking for relevant ones
jurov: there it alt least one cryptokyriarch
jurov: mod6 i like the banner. not sure we're all necessarily cryptoanarchists, tho
davout: trinque: so you keep the txid around, query your client for the txout and work from there? not very clear on what you mean
trinque: each time it's funded the starting point will advance, too
trinque: since the thing publishes once an hour, rolling forward doesn't seem that big a deal
davout: TheNewDeal: blockchain.info failed miserably at detecting them for a while, don't know if that's changed since, but afaik it's perfectly standard, and nodes will relay them
trinque: and then back to my rant re: holy shit this is a trivial query with well-structured data
trinque: yup, that's where the "roll forward from first funding transaction's block" comes from
davout: TheNewDeal: i don't think so
davout: hrm yeah, i forgot about keeping count of the balance, for that you should be able to use the gettxout call though
trinque: say I send a transaction, get one confirmation, then the thing still ended up on the losing fork
trinque: davout: I'm hesitant to keep my own count of btc when the correct value can be pulled from the node
davout: that way you keep one private key around, and you just need to track one txid that you reuse in the next tx
davout: when i have the addy to spend to for notarization, create a raw tx spending from that, and sending all the change back to the original address
davout: the way i'd do it is simply keep an unspent out around
trinque: has the same wad 'o json api
trinque: using btcd at the moment
trinque: so I can constrain the domain of things I care about
trinque: fluffypony: right, the subject being this bot, in this instance
fluffypony: if you receive a transaction with an NLOCKTIME in the future is that part of your balance or the sender's balance?
trinque: ben_vulpes tells me there's one that pulls it into postgresql too
trinque: davout: right, but the balance would be "that which has been spent to me, and not subsequently spent elsewhere"
davout: some implementations will let you store the DB in a SQL store iirc
davout: trinque: "you'd just query the outputs table for your pubkey where none are referenced by an input's output_id field" <<< it's a bit more complicated than that