Adlai: the observation which seems correct is that they don't account for the drop in difficulty caused by hashpower diverted towards attack... but i'm not certain that this lack of accounting is in their favor
mircea_popescu: small miners don't care, but this is universal - they don't care about anything, including rig safety.
Adlai is genuinely curious to see whether funkenstein_'s criticism extends beyond "this behavior is not rational, for me and my rational friends"
mircea_popescu: which is why large miners make their own.
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ we left aside the idiots in question and are discussing the theoretic theory.
mircea_popescu: fluffypony the fact we can't observe it doesn't allow us to value it at 0.
fluffypony: but we can't observe the social fabric
mircea_popescu: you seem to go on this remnant of forum dumb where the technical costs are relevant in bitcoin. they are not.
mircea_popescu: no, because the cost is principally social.
fluffypony: in fact, since the cost of starting and operating a pool is low, and they already have the technical know-how, they can setup a whole hoard of seemingly legitimate pools
fluffypony: it is in A's best interest to setup a new pool, C, and then DDoS B so that C's % of the hashrate grows
mircea_popescu: which is the real risk here : if pools collaborate TOO MUCH we end up with usg 2.0
fluffypony: two mining pools that control 25% of the hashrate each, mining pool A and B
fluffypony: they're super concentrated
mircea_popescu: even leaving aside the rank nonsense of the particular "analysis". the concept that it is somehow game-theoretic feasible for a one-of-many arrangement to attack everyone is at least bizarre.
mircea_popescu: dude am i the only one with a scrollback or something. how is the "nash equilibrium" stuff sensible.
funkenstein_: also calling somebody an enemy and then hurting them is not rational behavior. looking at your collected BTC is rational behavior.
funkenstein_: Adlai, their formulae are flawed.. they assume total network hashrate -m- is the same even though you are throwing away solved blocks
Adlai: it helps you by hurting your enemy worse than it hurts you, for certain ratios between your total available hashpower, your selfish-allocated-hashpower, and the hashpower under attack
funkenstein_: the other one suggests that mining for a pool and throwing away found blocks could somehow help you
funkenstein_: the "selfish mining" suggests that not broadcasting a found block could somehow help you
funkenstein_: i'm not saying game theory is bogus, but their analysis of the return based on the so-called attack
fluffypony: it is in the best interest of larger mining pools to attack smaller ones, for the most part, and even to attack each other (as long as it isn't a matter of mutually assured destruction)
Adlai: what is there to write about it, at this point, beyond "no mining pool operator is honest enough to publicly disclose their selfish mining hashrate allocation"?
fluffypony: funkenstein_: the game theoretic Nash Equilibrium stuff isn't bogus, as far as I can see
ben_vulpes: and will doubtless get drunk under the table by asciilifeform
pete_dushenski: quiet trilema too. i imagine that there are many preparations underway for your arrival :)
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [04:58] http://thewhet.net/2012/shall-be-delivered << shivers and nightmares
ben_vulpes: light logs the past few days even
pete_dushenski: o well then that was a tangent for nothing ;/
ben_vulpes: no man, when i say "the books" i mean my derpy little company's p/l statements, outgoing bills, outstanding invoices, the like
pete_dushenski: people have dozens of other avenues for information distribution and storage other than centralised paper recrods
pete_dushenski: well in that memories, skills, and ideas, are passed down regardless of whether they're recoverable in written form 2,000 years later
pete_dushenski: well, this'd go back to that 'did the burning of alexandria's library matter or nyot' question
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mircea_popescu heh maybe i'm not the worst jew after all
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: "books" << the ledgers?!
ben_vulpes: i plan to bike around, wander around a few neighborhoods, post up in cafés to get some personal hax in, take tango lessons in the evening, nap, eat steak drink wine, sleep, repeat, con, etc.
pete_dushenski: i have nfi what you're talking about. lol which books be these?
ben_vulpes: "lifestyle business", i keep reminding myself while reviewing the books.
ben_vulpes: perhaps a whole cult springs up around it someday - "to wind the clock!"
ben_vulpes: <decimation> [04:16] yeah I don't think they are serious, apparently it partially depends on visitors winding it << tbh i find this delightful and entertaining
ben_vulpes: for the serene republic!
ben_vulpes: i'll probably stare at the ceiling for an hour or two, thinking about the infinite amount of shit i should be taking care of before clocking out for the con
assbot: gavinandresen comments on There is a targeted attack on Bitcoin occurring right now, coordinated by national agencies. I know this because I am an insider with prior involvement in a key operation. ... ( http://bit.ly/1H6ILDq )
pete_dushenski: ^via chief satoshi dress-up artist : http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/31vl7q/there_is_a_targeted_attack_on_bitcoin_occurring/cq5fdfo
pete_dushenski: "Okey dokey, but this smells very much like a conspiracy theory. Especially the action item at the end: "spread the word." If you had ended with "These are the concrete things we all should be doing" then I'd be more sympathetic... assuming those things weren't just "BE EXTRA PARANOID! THEY ARE OUT TO GET US!" "
pete_dushenski: some are more 'mobile' than others
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: "Magic Mantle of Power" was Snowden's technical term for the red hood
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: comment replied, in case you dun check on these things.
BingoBoingo: And then... Greenwald shuts down his Guardian coworker
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: Glen Greenwald opening the conversation with Snowden by trying to write a story about snowden during day 1 of year 0
BingoBoingo: Federal appellate court room also featured. Looks more drab the local county oppression centers.
BingoBoingo: rewatching citizen4 snowden gedanken film. Forgot they showed the NSA facility under construction in Mormon Judea as a backdrop for so many narrations. Awfully close to the interstate.
asciilifeform: if i were to live for another twenty whole years, i could wish to produce something equalling this.
asciilifeform: like 'the cold equations', but done -right-
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the basic concept is due to hanbot's 'shall be delivered'
asciilifeform: if anyone recalls, iirc it was in a mircea_popescu article that we find observation that 'to this day the holes in the mains socket have to remain small'
pete_dushenski: right. w/o keys, we'd just be blobs of flesh and bone, indistinguishable from any other
asciilifeform: while people, to the extent that they cannot be connected with a key, are just bags of meat.
asciilifeform: that - to a historian, or whatever other kind of remote third party - it is keys that 'are people'
asciilifeform: just as there were people who could not make the leap to 'wire is lifeless and small but can kill elephant'
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: there is some key, somewhere, supposedly associated with the character.
asciilifeform: a bottle washed up from the sea.
asciilifeform: since mircea_popescu is asleep, i shall fill in for him, and point out that: not signed - not vouched for by anyone in wot - may as well be a piece of litter on the street.
pete_dushenski: but there's no shortage of video about
asciilifeform: (if he had, we wouldn't necessarily know, the greenwald gang mutilated all beyond recognition)
asciilifeform: or, for that matter, the documents ?
pete_dushenski: well, not the videos
asciilifeform: in so far as this compendium remains hypothetical - snowden's beliefs are 'angels on a pin'
pete_dushenski: yup. like your old dog that just needs another surgery to return her to her former puppious glory
asciilifeform: very much, going by the public statements, a believer in some idea of a return to a mythical 'old' usg
pete_dushenski: definitely an utopian idealist streak in there
asciilifeform: to the extent we even have an accurate picture of a non-fictional man 'snowden' - he isn't particularly clever.
pete_dushenski: still depends on whether you see value in it, or imagine yourself as 'above such barbarity'
asciilifeform: the desire is not really connected with whether you have the talent, or opportunity, to do it
pete_dushenski: not foot soldiers, these
asciilifeform: just as an exterminator probably has some idea of what the ant hill experiences
pete_dushenski: mebbe your friend the joo was shipped off in a cattle car
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: it is difficult to imagine that cia employee would have no concept of what usg dishes out to the rest of the planet (as well as own subjects)
pete_dushenski: or at least there's a greater probability of this
asciilifeform: not as if he were personally asked to work the guillotine
asciilifeform: in a way he is buying into the inquisitor's proposition.
pete_dushenski: we just want other people to atone for it
pete_dushenski: because we are all the sinners
asciilifeform: the american puritans invented a term of art for this, 'love the sinner and hate the sin'
asciilifeform: ready to hug him, kiss him good-night before lighting the pyre, so long as he repents
pete_dushenski: i mean, doesn't someone have to be in the right ?
pete_dushenski: i have the same sense.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: the interesting, and perhaps nonobvious - tidbit - is that these folks -actually- perceive 'american law' and 'god's law' (whether or not they worship any gods) to be one and the same
pete_dushenski: the world is as we learned it in social studies
assbot: Logged on 22-03-2015 02:22:03; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem with jurisdictions discussed recentlier is deeper than it seems. plenty of usians do not think other places are "real places".
assbot: You know what doesn’t wash? Your pathetic attempts to “teach the controversy.” That’s what. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbwj9N )
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2015/04/09/you-know-what-doesnt-wash-your-pathetic-attempts-to-teach-the-controversy-thats-what/#comment-14820
asciilifeform: or so went the reasoning.
asciilifeform: decimation: the traditional picture is each empire getting its 'correct' continent
decimation: yeah, the movie was naive to think that the chinese would take over before the central americans
decimation: is aztlan the 'blade runner'-style distopia?
decimation: yeah I don't think they are serious, apparently it partially depends on visitors winding it
asciilifeform: decimation: if they were serious about the 10,000 - they would have parked it on the moon
decimation: actually if you want to have something amusing stand the test of time, why not make a '10,000 year clock' like those yahoos in texas
asciilifeform: how the hell does one smoke a harp ?
asciilifeform expected it to be something more specific - weed smoked through trombone, or the like
nubbins`: one of the more comical euphemisms
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jazz+cigarette | A slang term used for Marijuana cigarettes during the 1920's in the United States. Cannabis cigarettes were sold in jazz clubs during this period thus the origin of ...
Chillum: jazz smokes are the best smokes
Chillum: I will have to include a stone version of the block chain
nubbins`: whoever finds your milled stone will have to get to the end of the first book before he figures out wtf is going on
asciilifeform: of the future.
Chillum: it would be nice if there was a public/private key system somehow based on time
decimation: pass them through oral history?
decimation: Chillum: and how are you gonna keep some random chump from ambling by and liberating the contents?
nubbins`: and walks away without turning off the stove burner o.O
Chillum: worked for the Egyptians
nubbins`: says "oh, i forgot", pours his quarter-cup of water into a mug, puts the pot (which has only contained water) into a dirty sink for someone else to wash
Chillum: milled stone may be the choice for something to last for 100 years +
nubbins`: heads upstairs, the water boils, boils, boils down to a quarter-cup before he wanders back down
nubbins`: so the roomie that's being kicked out: he puts on a pot of water to boil yesterday
asciilifeform: (nausea is, 'in the wild,' generally an indicator of having been poisoned)
asciilifeform: nubbins`: patients at chemotherapeutic clinics are often given weird sodas, etc. to drink, for this reason
nubbins`: and shit gets stuck in them sometimes
asciilifeform: nubbins`: or the american expression, dating at least to civil war, of 'biting the bullet'
nubbins`: this feeling, of rolling the whatever-it-was between my fingers, comes back from time to time
nubbins`: maybe 3 years old at the time
nubbins`: i have this hazy memory of being extremely sick as a young child, and rolling some very small object, like the size of a grain of sand, between my thumb and forefinger as i writhed in agony
trinque: getting all this sensory input from a thing that shouldn't be there
assbot: Logged on 27-02-2015 02:39:08; decimation: "LAWRENCE Look, Ali. Look! That's me. What colour is it? That's me! And there's nothing I can do about it. ALI A man can do whatever he wants, you said. LAWRENCE He can, but he can't want what he wants.This is the stuff [his flesh] that decides what he wants."
nubbins`: consider the afore-shared "twwly"
asciilifeform: nubbins`: <nubbins`> anyone who claims to have a grasp on the processes behind these decisions is blowing smoke up your ass << the amputation folks do appear to converge on certain threads in their explanations, iirc
decimation: so you put it in your 'safe deposit box', and the bank employees read
asciilifeform: fuse a bulb of cloudy synthetic quartz around a gold plate.
nubbins`: anyone who claims to have a grasp on the processes behind these decisions is blowing smoke up your ass
Chillum: the gold would not have to be thick
nubbins`: now imagine how difficult it would be to take the internal state of /wanting to amputate part of your body/ and convey it
decimation: the problem I see is, how are you gonna protect it from being seen?
Chillum: the fact is we have a big tech gap when it comes to storing digital information for long term
trinque: nubbins`: I am invariably dull when it comes to expressing my feelings to others
assbot: Writing in the Sand: The Need for Ultra-Robust Digital Archiving ... ( http://bit.ly/1cbobG9 )
nubbins`: most people don't tend to think about personal crises once they've passed, so you're not unusual in that regard. did you find it hard to succinctly state what was wrong, to yourself or to others?
asciilifeform: decimation: problem is that anything easy to do, is easy for the sands of time to scramble up.
nubbins`: what's the most complicated personal crisis you've had to deal with?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: they won't be taken in by a cruel sham
asciilifeform: nubbins`: in a way, the folks who 'by 1000 want' to be dragons, are better off
trinque: nubbins`: but was the guy getting his dick chopped off one of those?
trinque: dunno then
trinque: nubbins`: I was talking about the guy who chops his finger off
nubbins`: trinque people who feel they're being cheated of pain and risk usually take up dangerous hobbies
asciilifeform: decimation: depends on the wavelength
asciilifeform: on account of the poor massless photons, a 100w power saw cuts like a 10kW laser..
trinque: nubbins`: I was actually looking for an explanation for the thing
trinque: maybe life is just too boring for them?
nubbins`: trinque it kinda seems like you're arguing people cut their dicks off /on a whim/
Chillum: asciilifeform: I am for a larger place to live, then I will be getting one. Will certainly be doing a lot of research first
asciilifeform: Chillum: you will find that, large or small, the cost of the cooling and ventilation apparatus will approach the cost of the machine itself.
nubbins`: the laws of probability would have broken down
Chillum: true but beyond a certain power other types of lasers make more sense
asciilifeform: the tech has not changed.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tube lasers cost roughly what they cost 30 years ago,.
Chillum: could work. The problem is that everyone needs their own laser cutter as you cannot trust another to make a key for you
trinque: nubbins`: he could simply decide that he is going to ask for the thing, and do it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you could make the dots 1 sqcm
mircea_popescu: actually the bronze age items will still be imperceptibly altered long after new york is barely a flat spot in the sediment record.
asciilifeform: bronze -items- not little scratches thereon.
Chillum: mircea_popescu: if it can be anodized then bronze would be a great way to go
trinque: nubbins`: by magical thinking I mean the kind which simply tries to declare things to be other than they are
mircea_popescu: bronze is the most durable thing we have.
Chillum: it has the advantage of being extremely durable
nubbins`: this is right before the "FOREVER"
mircea_popescu: in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/7a18b42546599744d309f33bf22c294a/tumblr_n3hc0skbZU1tpwtg5o1_1280.png
Chillum: I have been looking into laser cutters. I have seen this aluminum with a black anodized layer. The laser can blast off the black layer to give strong contrasting metal images. I am thinking it may be a good way to make very long term(decades) bitcoin wallets
mircea_popescu: yeah, because god forbid their stupid "mind" ie narciself ever has to adapt to anything.
asciilifeform: trinque: not consider my body to be "me" << fwiw, this is how the shrinkature describes it
mircea_popescu: just... why the fuck would i.
mircea_popescu: trinque im certainly able to cut the whole lot off.
asciilifeform: tales of stolen organs pre-date the invention of transplantation
mircea_popescu: and they tricked him with a rare stamp, guy lost a kidney.
nubbins`: he tracks his dad down, they argue, dad pushes him out a 7th floor window, paralyzing him
mircea_popescu: actually, i now recall there was this ancient... czech maybe ? film, about a stamp collector
nubbins`: john wakes up in the recovery room after donating said kidney -- dad had checked out an hour earlier, never to be seen again
trinque: I think a pathological way to do so, but maybe there was something there other than just the narcissism, though that factored in
nubbins`: anyway, in the show, there's this old man, john locke. hard life, series of misfortunes. finds his dad as an adult, befriends him, everything's great
trinque: asciilifeform: hm, maybe I didn't describe the situation I know of fully. she mentioned that it cleared her head a couple times
mircea_popescu: wife gave him a kidney (they matched), he cleanned up his act
asciilifeform: <mircea_popescu> narrow space in the head, so everything ends up the other thing << this is how the 'cutter' explained it to me
nubbins`: he ended up getting divorced in the end, which was a bit of a kick in his absent nuts
mircea_popescu: narrow space in the head, so everything ends up the other thing all the time. broken shit.
nubbins`: knew a guy who went by the name "mal" who was in the process of letting his wife cut his dick off
mircea_popescu: women to some degree are coded to neglect pain or else they'd never get pregnant.
mircea_popescu: whereas, plain female submission (either natural, or else imprinted/misdeveloped) is quite common.
asciilifeform: so what are the remaining ones ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well the masochists you imagine and the masochists you'll encounter are guaranteed to never meet.
nubbins`: i've met some extremely complicated people over the years
asciilifeform: who go in for greater and greater torments, hoping to overflow the register
mircea_popescu: so... you know, picking something way down off the list of either doesn't make much of a connection
mircea_popescu: anyway. the pain per se is rarely sought by the body mod crowd. as trinque points out, attention whoring much higher on the list.
asciilifeform: trinque: oddly enough i knew such a person, and it was very much not a 'performance act' considering that it was done in secret and only evident long after by the scars
mircea_popescu: nubbins` if your idea of bdsm is "hurty things are nice" and idem of body mods, the problem is this will overlap anything.
nubbins`: mircea_popescu and there isn't an overlap between the two groups who agree "hurty things are nice". gotcha
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and for the record, the overlap between bdsm and "scenes" is roughly the overlap between human sexuality and brazzers.
trinque: not the pain
mircea_popescu: the overlap is : poor, stupid, young adults.
mircea_popescu: there's a large overlap between idiotic sjw types, fair going lice-in-hair types, gender-and-social-role-issues types and perceived-scandalous-stuff types.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: no there isn't.
nubbins`: asciilifeform unsurprisingly there's a massive overlap between "body mod" world and bdsm
asciilifeform: i can easily picture them feeling it as a 'long no-safeword scene' or somesuch
trinque: seems like the finger cutting wants an audience
bitstein: ben_vulpes: I've been busy thinking about other things. I have some articles to review, though, that touch the subject. So we'll see if anyone comes to any new conclusions.
nubbins`: mircea_popescu you don't think cutting the fingertips off is pleasurable for these people?
nubbins`: decimation if it ends up a problem down the road, people have it done as adults all the time