BingoBoingo: !!rate ragnardanneskjol -5 Professed to do something, Ate substantial time over several years, if he crawls back out of his whole consider him a navigational hazard who will eat any time you offer him and further waste anytime you spend expecting him to deliver
deedbot: BingoBoingo updated rating of copypaste from 1 to -1 << Introduced to the future, ended up rolling the other way
deedbot: BingoBoingo updated rating of thickasthieves from 1 to -1 << The Real Altcoin's Mother, disappeared after receiving criticism in Trilema blog comments, additionally something, something NEOBEE
BingoBoingo: !!rate thickasthieves -1 The Real Altcoin's Mother, disappeared after receiving criticism in Trilema blog comments, additionally something, something NEOBEE
deedbot: BingoBoingo updated rating of simonpenner from 1 to -1 << Introduced to the future, ended up going the other way
mircea_popescu: does anyone have any appreciation WHATSOEVEr what a tower of shit all this is ? "oh, we have 3 options of which one sorta works except not in this way -- but the other two, barely at all!"
a111: Logged on 2019-02-15 16:07 diana_coman: but I start suspecting the --enable-sjlj-exceptions + static only -> barf
mircea_popescu: imo very typical of the sort of braindamage involved.
deedbot: BingoBoingo updated rating of pete_dushenski from 1 to 1 << Canadian lifestyle blogger, Embracing the icy north of a peripheral Pantsuit land, a trackful wast
BingoBoingo: !!rate pete_dushenski 1 Canadian lifestyle blogger, Embracing the icy north of a peripheral Pantsuit land, a trackful wast
deedbot: BingoBoingo updated rating of mike_c from 1 to -1 << Made good things, disappeared, appears to have ended up going the other way
BingoBoingo: !!rate mike_c -1 Made good things, disappeared, appears to have ended up going the other way
BingoBoingo: !!rate jborkl_ 1 wrote, probably making tracks in the trackless waste
deedbot: BingoBoingo updated rating of irdial from 1 to -1 << loud, introduced to the future, ended up going the other way
deedbot: BingoBoingo updated rating of heysteve from 1 to -1 << Did a thing with words, ended up going the other way
diana_coman: for sanity I just checked by the way that the exact same machine DOES in fact build successfully GNAT with those same scripts without the sjlj added requirement
diana_coman: at least to have some idea if the move to gcc that builds static only has to do with it
diana_coman: hm, full replica might require I upload somewhere the tarballs too since at least 1 link was broken ; anyways, it's with http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl-now-always-static/ + taken out the download script for ada2016 because broken link + added GCC_CONFFLAGS="--enable-sjlj-exceptions" to extraconfig.sh ; set path to point to existing and working adacore 2016 gnat + put all tarballs in their place
deedbot: BingoBoingo updated rating of cazalla from 8 to 1 << Qntra editor emiritus presently making tracks in the trackless waste
BingoBoingo: !!rate cazalla 1 Qntra editor emiritus presently making tracks in the trackless waste
diana_coman: but I start suspecting the --enable-sjlj-exceptions + static only -> barf
asciilifeform: the 2nd eggog is also a constraint eggog, thrown in bottom of http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/YUqze/?raw=true
diana_coman: asciilifeform, certainly not moved during the build; it says 16:34 gmt now so doubt it's a problem
asciilifeform: ( or moved during the build ?? )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 'Error detected around a-calend.adb:801:11' >> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/fCaiF/?raw=true << is there any chance yer clock is off ?
asciilifeform: i didn't even see any mention of 'crypto', other than a 2017 piece where he gripes about uninvited js minerism
asciilifeform: ( aside from pro virii-bakers , for tests. but d00d dun seem to be 1 of ~these~ )
asciilifeform looked at linked www, seems to have.. buncha reviews of winblowz av!! who the fuck ~collects~ winblows av?!
mircea_popescu: (for thread completness : dood's a "crypto skeptic" for the simple reason that i told 'em to get in back in 2011, when ro speakers were going through a phase of our-homegoat-just-as-good-as-mp's-mercedes, and so of course they "knew better" then. romanians are dumb enough to get locked into these permamently, just like any other rural morons.)
mircea_popescu: nicoleci kitten, check out latest comments, local troll dug out the linkedin of this lulzcow. write to them, say hi an' tell 'em your master ordered you to.
mircea_popescu: beat the wives more.
mircea_popescu: first "global warming", that didn't pan out, then "climate change", that also didn't pan out, now it's "nothing in particular" and i'm supposed to take them seriously ?
mircea_popescu: except that's WHAT FUCKING WEATHER MEANS.
BingoBoingo: And it comes out GNAT has never been tested before to the extent the Republic is testing it
a111: Logged on 2019-02-15 06:24 mircea_popescu: aaand also meanwhile, but this time in http://trilema.com/2017/global-warming-on-triton/ lulz : https://weather.com/news/news/2019-02-11-hawaii-storm-record-cold-maui-snow
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1896880 << That slow walk to "weather instability" as their new buzzword
diana_coman: fwiw yesterday I had in parallel this recompile task going too, but all sorts of stuff going with it so it's still ongoing (and apparently I'll have afterwards to write-it up as well, on top of the sjlj data )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-15 02:45 mircea_popescu: diana_coman so in the end, the conclusion of these procedings is, we're switching to sjlj and use no handlers ? did you ever manage to get it going on smg test server ?
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1896874 -> pending getting finally ave1's gnat recompiled with sjlj and then running it on smg test server, I'd say switching to sjlj + no handlers is pretty much the only currently available option anyway
mircea_popescu: aaand also meanwhile, but this time in http://trilema.com/2017/global-warming-on-triton/ lulz : https://weather.com/news/news/2019-02-11-hawaii-storm-record-cold-maui-snow
mircea_popescu: the fmi is gonna make some austerity recomendations, rite ?
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in lulz http://trilema.com/2016/sad-times-in-the-fiat-empire-apparently-you-cant-give-the-dollar-away-these-days/ : bitcoin's still capped at 21mn (pantsuit still claiming this is bad) ; usg's confetti just passed 22... quadrillion or some shit (pantsuit still claiming that 1. it is capped and 2. nothing to be worried about -- not even self-contradiction). http://www.usdebtclock.org/ has some tickers.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 23:45 asciilifeform: so produced garbage ( but ordered!111 and therefore fascinating!111 to certain folx ) garbage.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in crazy coincidences : speaking of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896828 trilema commenters dug out.... well, there was this antique trilema hater / goffy ununderstood soul / fellow with talent & issues that kept deleting his blog (only to resurect it periodically). well, in this 5th or 9th or whatever resurected phase, what is he writing about YESTERDAY if not... https://ludditus.com/2019/02/10/nostalgia-fun-w
mircea_popescu: diana_coman so in the end, the conclusion of these procedings is, we're switching to sjlj and use no handlers ? did you ever manage to get it going on smg test server ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, diana_coman do you have any pressing itches re the asm vivisections , or can table it for nao ?
asciilifeform won't be surprised if 1 day we learn that it only happens if you click on the bottom serif of a lower case 's' or somesuch
asciilifeform: all the moar headachy
asciilifeform won a http://trilema.com/2014/the-all-american-asshole-in-his-own-words-with-my-own-notes/ in trilemalotto today. classic piece, but observe that clicking on the 'internal' footnote linx throws the selector script into same bug as on asciilifeform's site
asciilifeform: sysop kicked the drum disk to get it goin'.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's brother worked on 1, in '90 or so. thing powered a hall of 32 glass terminals , occupied ~24/7 by hungry undergrads
asciilifeform for yrs nao has wanted to build some boxen around sovok k1801, but was never able to justify the sweat in light of war effort -- the demand for iron wallets and similar , even among folx with 3rd eye open, seems to be pretty minimal.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-18 17:49 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-18#1888188 << oh hey , was this same grandfather as 'i miss stalin, we were younger then' ?
asciilifeform: ( before mircea_popescu answers 'holy mother of fuck, this is chemically-pure wankery' -- yes, it was. but imho still beats shit out of redditism. )
asciilifeform: and all cuz the folx at 'angstron' didn't have laser, like intel's, to snip off the defective chunk of the ic on conveyor, lol
asciilifeform: in ru there are some decent microscopists ( not the 1 phf went to, but apparently others. ) for instance, very recently found that К1801 ( sovok 'pdp-11' single-chip ) was ~not~ in fact a photoclone of dec's (only the early '80s demo ver was!) but , turns out, entirely indigenous orc design, with coupla x ~fewer~ transistors and yet faster max clock
asciilifeform: ( surprise ? they had smt pcb in sovok )
asciilifeform: so produced garbage ( but ordered!111 and therefore fascinating!111 to certain folx ) garbage.
asciilifeform: what found, was that the 'eggog instrs' were meant to be various floatingpointisms, that didn't work out in the last chip revision, and so left out of the manual
asciilifeform: but for 30 yrs the aficionados had nfi what thing actually did when eggoged. until microscopist.
asciilifeform: much noise was made re the peculiar results of running various
asciilifeform: ^ ancient sovok programmable calculator. had entire subculture, of , among other things, 'eggogology'
asciilifeform: and it's exactly what asciilifeform intends to do to e.g. the bolix.
asciilifeform: with thinking, rather than brute force ( nobody will live to see even 2^128 bit of phase space walked via brute force, do the arithm )
asciilifeform: also did not say that profiling is useless, profiling -- worx, and is a must for anyffin where you actually give a fuck re performance. but what we aint got on pc, is anything like an actual grasp of wtf the thing does and precisely why.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman was there, even!
mircea_popescu: (this may sound far-fetched to our foreign friends ; but the exact thing happened to me before.
asciilifeform: which is not to say that you can say ~nothing~ -- can say many things (e.g. the point re the reorder lock, stands for all current x86 irons)
asciilifeform: and then you pick up chip made on a tuesday, and it has diff mechanics than what they sold on wednesday of same wk.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless it's a finite phase space. imagine, if we end up having docs intel doesn't.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a stateful box of ??? ( rumour is, not even orig vendor can fully describe the phase space )
asciilifeform: yer talking to 1 of the few remaining. (and perhaps only because asciilifeform dun often asm , knows measure)
asciilifeform: eh and then you make your case switch 4-legged instead of 3 somewhere, and all readings change.
mircea_popescu: end up with converged values and whatever else, put them in a matrix and have a matrix-table.
mircea_popescu: precisely through same process as yielded here, timings for serpent etc, there's readily recognizable meta-structures
asciilifeform: they also dun do much good! if i had a wood furnace, i'dve stoked it with'em by nao
asciilifeform: they haven't printed 'tick table' since old pentium.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: manual is silent, for the most part, on subj.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the point has legs -- what we've done here very much can be done ands re-done, and with cuntoo/ada-gnat/etc stack spitting out statics, it might even come close.
asciilifeform: ( the rub is that ticks depend heavily on context, on a reorderistic cpu )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the 'test' vs 'cmp' thing is microscopic , so arguably red herring here
mircea_popescu: leaving compactness aside for the moment
mircea_popescu: if the zcx's cmp WERE slower than sjlj's test, then we should see the latter be faster on 0 handlers than the former!
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 21:53 diana_coman: mircea_popescu and anyone else following along, here's the data from a set of runs with handlers from 0 to 3: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/9Cstd/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ( btw the obj reason why none of this is visible in ffa -- there aint any tasks! so even in ljmp mode it shits out same coad )
mircea_popescu: well, i won't trust my own understanding of asm and contemporary cpus as far as i can throw it ; but if indeed the operands in zcx impl were slower, you'd see it take less time!!!1
asciilifeform: whereas if you didn't touch it, it then is
mircea_popescu: yeah but the pipe is built such that this is also ~0 cost electrically
asciilifeform: (so it actually locks the pipe and waits for both operands to become available)
asciilifeform: test simply ORs the bits in register together (and this happens by default when you load it, cuz it's costless electrically)
mircea_popescu: one part of the problem might be that sjlj comes from a time before, when insanities like that snippet above were standard. but no time since the millenium do you see it instead of the cmp etc.
mircea_popescu: well so then what are we disagreeing here about.
mircea_popescu: (did i identify the same segment correctly ?)
asciilifeform: it's 'optimal' in the sense that it fucks the branch predictor less than an always-computed-jump
asciilifeform prolly oughta have read the orig adb prior to doing this
asciilifeform: they're diana_coman's exception handlers.
mircea_popescu: one that's due to the method, and the other that's due to the fact zcx was a lot narrowly-er massaged
mircea_popescu: rather, i can't shake this impression that sjlj saddles us with two segments of overhead
diana_coman: I'm atm doing the inventory of ave1's versions of gnat scripts and apparently even 2018-05-29 relies on downloading stuff that meanwhile moved/vanished as they always do; moreover, I have the darned stuff , now need to figure out how to cut out the download and just point the script at local source, ugh
asciilifeform: cuz it's the 2nd half of a conditional ?
mircea_popescu: im sorry. why jz rather than jmp or w/e
mircea_popescu: why jz rather tthan sub ?
asciilifeform is prolly doomed to actually vivisect the gnat backend at some pt, prolly sooner rather than later
asciilifeform: ( will guess, tho i do not presently know, that these trigger unwind of stack )
asciilifeform: also loox like the ljmp variant puts abortism stub in erry proc (that appears in a task, that is)
mircea_popescu: (the 52 is cuz i took the 13 items and multiplied by 4, forgetting that these are actually byte alligned not 64-bit alligned)
asciilifeform: cuz it keeps the where to longjmp in'ere.
mircea_popescu: no i know where you got the sub param from, what im asking is,
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the stack frame.
mircea_popescu: the observation that perhaps sjlj is not actually as tightly optimized as zcx is trying to percolate through my brain
asciilifeform: then yes
asciilifeform: the stack frame, that is
asciilifeform: ( before anyone asks, the 'unwind resume' variants are extern stdlib symbols, and i haven't looked to see how they differ yet )
asciilifeform: at the risk of log clutter, will put ftr :
asciilifeform: though, interestingly, only in the unit 'procs' , which actually contains exceptionisms
asciilifeform: diana_coman: btw your 'lick the 9v' intuitive observation earlier was correct, on ljmp variant the default stack frame indeed longer, 184byte vs 40
diana_coman: asciilifeform, the name of the tarball is correct; you'll have to change the name of the dir /put them separate
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the 'zcx' tarball contains a 'ljmp_calls' dir, same as other 1. which is correct ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, here are the latest aka proc calls with 3 handlers per proc: ossasepia.com/available_resources/bins_calls_sjlj_adacoregnat.tar.gz and ossasepia.com/available_resources/bins_calls_zcx_adacoregnat.tar.gz ; let me know if you want anything else
diana_coman: asciilifeform, any preference re "pair of bins" i.e. the procedure calls or the loops of yest?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-11 01:33 hanbot: diana_coman fwiw i ran into a few broken internal links on ossasepia today on account of their still pointing to dianacoman.com, see http://ossasepia.com/2018/03/08/eucrypt-compilation-sheet/ fo' instance.
diana_coman: in other things, re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-11#1894896 -> this should now be fully sorted i.e. IP change for dianacoman.com propagated as far as I can see + redirection working fine for any link so please let me know if you still encounter trouble with any dead links; if you use only hosts (no DNS) then simply adding dianacoman.com on same IP as ossasepia should work seamlessly
diana_coman: mircea_popescu and anyone else following along, here's the data from a set of runs with handlers from 0 to 3: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/9Cstd/?raw=true
diana_coman: ah, that'd explain it, wouldn't it: by the time "programming" is direct translation of fuzzing into code, it'd possibly speed up, yes
diana_coman: I still don't see the boo-boo of docs i.e ~"all programs should see a great improvement running zcx" or how was it
diana_coman: no, fat-fingered it, 0 instead of 9 i.e it was 0.93 not 0.03; sorry about that; still running atm the 1 handler with sjlj and then will move on to 2 and 3 handlers
asciilifeform: this does not contradict the hypothesis re handlers tho ( i have only the 'last chance' handler ). it does suggest that sjlj does not speed up ordinary calls substantially tho.
mircea_popescu: (in fairness though, no program ever does the sort of calling insanity we do here, so irl this may be very mild indeed)
mircea_popescu: it really blew my fucking mind! ZERO COST, they said!!!
asciilifeform nao wonders if there's a seekrit chest fulla ffa speedup in this dig
mircea_popescu: but that 0.9 vs 0.03 is popping the fuck out.
diana_coman: and yes, then I'll do with 2 and 3 handlers too
diana_coman: ugh, either I fat-fingered there or what; let me run that again ; (and possibly /me should really stop getting data *other* than in a nice plain table)
mircea_popescu: ie, what the docs don't say is the juciest bit at all : if you do not have extra handlers, zcx is MASSACRING you on calls.
mircea_popescu: specifically stated, this program takes to run : 1 with sjlh, no handlers ; 30 (up 3000%) with zcx, irrespective of handler count ; 5295 (a further 200% up) with sjlj and one extra handler.
diana_coman: you mean in that you don't actually gain anything but lose ability to abort asynchronously among other things?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman but they're parametrically related.
diana_coman: aaand this is it, docs apparently right: fully cleaned up (i.e. none of the serpent vars + init anymore either), max value 16777216, x 22368144; with NO handlers it's 0.9s no sjlj and 0.03 with sjlj; same but WITH 1 handler per proc turns into 1.06s without sjlj and 158.87s with sjlj
diana_coman: so X will be bigger than max generally because of the "calls 2 procs"
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, just to make sure you get this straight: Max is one thing, the final X is another i.e. the final X really counts how many times procs got entered; the max value means procs stop calling others (but note that the x=x+1 is done before the check precisely because I wanted to know how many calls)
mircea_popescu: alright ; then try smaller sizes, x=4m might fit for both for instance, and it's still in the zone.
mircea_popescu: (it will doubtless be MUCH larger, but the issue here is time not so much space)
mircea_popescu: a cool. ok, so 22mn takes 1.25 s i'd say it's in the zone, and we're good as such.
diana_coman: I fixed the stack issue
asciilifeform: ugh is there a hard max ?!
diana_coman: uhm, I set ulimit -s 900000 ; it shows, confirmed at that with either ulimit -a or ulimit -s; set it from the linker option too; prog still overflows in the end; and if I try MORE than that from ulimit -s I get bash: ulimit: stack size: cannot modify limit: Operation not permitted
mircea_popescu: can set it back when done, it happens to be one of the more sensible / useful limits in there, which is why few even know about it.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman possibly have to alter the linux config alf was mentioning it, blows out the 2mb stack max default.
diana_coman: uhm, it overflows the stack and either the linker switch I'm using is not working or it can't make it
mircea_popescu: anyway, on the upside, it is not possible x= 16777216 can be accomodated on any stack pages of any extant or soon to be devised irons, it still needs at least 4 bytes per call if not 52.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw the noise floor on e.g my test box, is 0.003 (i.e. a proggy with empty main)
mircea_popescu: diana_coman try with 16777216 then.
diana_coman: <diana_coman> oh, no serpent in there ? it'll run VERY fast though i.e. 0.039s sort of thing -> darn, that's 0.0039
diana_coman goes to run it a few times without the serpent
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well, that's what the x knob is for.
diana_coman: oh, no serpent in there ? it'll run VERY fast though i.e. 0.039s sort of thing
mircea_popescu: because they're talking veneto.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman take out the Encrypt(KS, Plain, Encr); line, this is just empty procedure calls.
diana_coman: k, will tar up the whole dir
asciilifeform: ( we aren't so much concerned with the 3MB standard lib )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: ideally when you do this, tar up not only the final bin but the contents of obj dir
asciilifeform: aite, i'ma do it to the variant mircea_popescu goes with
diana_coman: right; as soon as mircea_popescu confirms the code is what he wanted, will do
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 16:05 asciilifeform: btw , to go with http://trilema.com/2019/so-what-is-the-man-saying , really oughta disasm a zcx variant and longjmp side by side and see what actually changes. ( when diana_coman comes back with working bins, i'ma set this up , for thread-co)
diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes, data set contains...data, lol; but will publish it all when full or at least when at some point to decide further or otherwise we keep going back and forth
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, let me know if that's the sort of thing you had in mind or not
diana_coman: ftr with exception handlers the main trouble is simply that the sjlj overflows the stack very quickly; so far not as much any clear difference in *speed* but certainly a difference in stack space used
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 07:55 mircea_popescu: diana_coman : btw, here's my current model for the calling timing harness : write three procedures, A B C. have each of these 1. increment a global counter, X ; 2. check if X is over a max value ; 3. if it is not, have each call either one or the other of the other two randomly ; 4. if X is over max value, have them simply return.
diana_coman: re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896383 -> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/o2h67/?raw=true (that's the version including a handler and obv, there are in fact 3 procedures A, B, C, with each calling the other two or one of the other two; MT is the Mersenne Twister Ada implementation I did for the UDP test)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 07:40 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896320 -> hm, trinque, do you suspect it's really just down to V version? I can easily re-run the thing with a V pressed to same node as yours to rule that out, if that's the case
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896356 -> this finished: the signature still does not verify; trinque let me know if you want to see the result of this run too
mircea_popescu: consider the math : i go out to eat, i eat at $100 a plate joint. i go out for a show, or a bender, or a casino trip, or what have you, i come back thousands lighter. meanwhile what's your living space, 100 sqm ? 1000 sqm ? you'll get fucking lost in an acre, really. with modern insulation what's the lossage, a few cents a day ? how THE FUCK will you care so much about the cent as to go cold rather than use electricity, while
phf: i've been looking at getting x11 working for cp101a but not on top of cuntoo. i'm going to take a break and attempt a build myself. i might run into the issue also
phf: trinque: i'm going to play with some link combinations, but perhaps it would be worthwhile to at least check if the named file exists on the system after failed genesis production.
mircea_popescu: and once they go away, what will i use ? there's a case for using electricity for heating if MOST of energy produced is electricity. because heating relatively small outlay, all things considered.
mircea_popescu: but the natgas will run out ; and the little house-sized powerplants that it enables will go away, i can't burn pitch in there.
asciilifeform: ( and ftr i dun hate winter, either 'bitcoin' or of the ordinary kind, winter is a-ok for so long as you aint stuck in the wind w/out a coat )
mircea_popescu: anyway, re above trends : there's a very visible trend in energy generation away from low quality and towards high quality. this means absolutely a move away from everything and into nuclear. as nuclear increases and fossils drop, the outlook will significantly change -- eg in romania i'd have not even considered heating on any other premise than natgas ; bathroom had eg towel rack consisting of hot water pipes and other such
asciilifeform: i dun read 'soshulmeadia', dun have any data other than 'no one seems to be offering 20k orc dubloons for coin like yr ago, just nao'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: could even say nao is 'bitcoin winter', the sorts of folx inclined to stuff head up arse are stuffing deeper than ever and boasting
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 04:09 trinque: it looks like both the symlink and the path symlinked commingled
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896331 << no. i gather you're not seeing this issue on your own machine? vdiff treats links the way diff did, as a completely new file, including the content
asciilifeform: 'pioneer is the fella with arrow in his back' eh
mircea_popescu: the problem with economically useful preciction isn't getting the trends right, it's getting the timing right.
mircea_popescu: this is an ancient theme, even appears in say the gladstone speech you asked for recently. "first man, spent 1/4mn pounds, got no coal. 2nd man, spent 100k, got no coal. 3rd man got coal"
mircea_popescu: then next generation will make bitcoin mining houses.
mircea_popescu: it seems to me premature yet. on my judgement, there was a lot of optimisim at the chump level re obama's bullshit electro-rooves. that will have to blow over, as it was a scam. consumer market will reel a while in disdain-distrust of "such nonsense".
mircea_popescu: why necessary event has not happened yet is sometimes explicable (if sun will burn out eventually, then why not yet ?!?!) but not always (say mom, if i'm gonna lose my virginity eventually, how come no girl fucked me yet ?!?!?!")
mircea_popescu: except as per teh "three ring binder" theory, it doesn't actually require anything besides their being made.
asciilifeform: right. so hypothesis requires then that it is viable commercially, i.e. someone other than mircea_popescu give enuff damn to bake'em into tiles.
asciilifeform: what's the obstacle ?
mircea_popescu: but i don't care what it costs in the sense i will have it done, not in the sense that i will have it done in the most expensive way possible. if there's bitcoin mining tiles and simple tiles available, i am buying the former.
mircea_popescu: because i WILL heat my bathroom floor so my whores can suck my cock barefoot rather than live in frigid 80s sovoklands.
mircea_popescu: no. the original hypothesis was that the same exact item you alf could buy, ie, slightly worse than the best and slightly better than average deployment, will be inserted into eg ceramic tiles, and allow for applications where people don't so much give a fuck.
asciilifeform: let's stipulate that this is true (i.e. that what's sold to konsoomer currently is only coupla notches obsolete.) i thought that orig 'heat house' hypothesis was re arbitrary degree of obsolescence.
mircea_popescu: fucking move, if you don't like paying 5 cents for electro-watt and a further 10 cents so mammie mc nigger fatass can afford lube and happy meals every time you burn a watt.
mircea_popescu: yes, it's true most of those for-profit mining ops are located in places with cheaper electricity than yours. HOWEVER, this is not a discussion of ~the miner~ but of expensive government you ~opt to support~.
mircea_popescu: the bitcoin miner you alf could buy today is slightly, but not much, worse than the bitcoin miner the strategic mining op could buy today ; and it is slightly better (but not much) than the average miner the average strategic op has currently deployed and running.
mircea_popescu: what fucking chump bait are you the fuck on about in your own solipsist hell entirely lost to any reason ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 16:54 asciilifeform: ( i'ma take mircea_popescu's word for 'they are available to konsoomer' , evidently currently worth slightly moar as chump bait than as ore )
mircea_popescu: certainly stupid idea, it takes 3 watts of steam (the "low quality low temperature heat" from above) to make 1 watt of electricity. why the fuck would you turn around and make low temperature heat out of that ?!
asciilifeform: that the orcs dun realize this, and continue to build blocks of flats with no heat and where each orc sets up propane burner in his deathtrap, is entirely separate puzzler
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: as i understand , BingoBoingostan is theoretically idea heatpump country
BingoBoingo: But the issue down here is not "a heatpump", but this one specific size of heatpump that's the only option they know.
BingoBoingo: Now there are a handful of buildings with size appropriate climate control here like the WTC towers, but they are the exceptions
BingoBoingo: Even in commercial construction... Recall the co-work roof
asciilifeform: electric resistance heat is -ev insanity on pretty much 100% of planet, moar or less 100% of the time -- heat pump (if >0C) or gas (if <0C and there's ~any~ gas to be had , at just about any historical price) wins by fat margin
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: There are 50s to 70's buildings here like that, but central heat even then is fairly rare. Past few decades climate control doctrine in Uruguay is based around a standard sized air conditioner. An apartment may have 1-3 of these, a house may have a double digit numer of these.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it happens where sovok bldg manager refuses to switch on the central steam till december etc.
asciilifeform: ( i'ma take mircea_popescu's word for 'they are available to konsoomer' , evidently currently worth slightly moar as chump bait than as ore )
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's proposition is that difficulty climb at some pt puts the older units into the zone where they're worth moar as au
mircea_popescu: so yes, bitcoin miners are strategic items, much like atari targetting systems. nevertheless -- perfectly available to consumer.
mircea_popescu: because wtf, you're not gonna put the better item in the mn-line, keep it for the 100s line ?
mircea_popescu: this is the fundamental point of ye above linked car article : if "luxury brands" come up with ~substantail improvements~, they're next year in the "mass market" cars.
mircea_popescu: yes ; and if they found out a way to do without the au, they'd have taken it out of... both.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, they're still gettable despite 30 yrs of 'biznis' melting'em down for au.
asciilifeform: that was a uniquely sovok phenomenon tho -- these folx were so poor that they could not afford konsoomer & mil separate lines
mircea_popescu: because of how ic works, it's cheaper to let consumers have the professional product than to make another special one for them.
a111: Logged on 2018-12-01 21:23 asciilifeform: so, to extend lemma, atari ~because~ cheap ic, and not other way ?
mircea_popescu: whole http://btcbase.org/log/2018-12-01#1877555 thing all over again : tank targetting and alf playing happened on the exact same board.
asciilifeform: this is where i confess that i did not follow the subj actively in recent yr or 2, last time i tried to buy miner was some time during kako's reign