asciilifeform: ( naturally if you aint one of'em, can ask until the cows come home. recall mircea_popescu's letter to rms ? )
asciilifeform: y'know , all those listservs where the muppets shit out multiple MB erry day , that's where they 'ask' one another
mircea_popescu: what "ask the fellows to patch gcc, fix this one error we have". wtf, how do i ask this ?!
asciilifeform: rather than pretense of 'infinite'
mircea_popescu: " /* Take care to ignore link-once functions that were removed. In these cases, the function address will be NULL, but if the encoding is smaller than a pointer a true NULL may not be representable. Assume 0 in the representable bits is NULL. */"
mircea_popescu: what, i get the luxury of a door lock but programming environment must take all comers ?
mircea_popescu: you can't go around simply solving the most general case of everything. precisely because such a thing as closed system exists.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yer kitchen is a closed system , in the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897470 sense
asciilifeform: ( 'but asciilifeform ! grep aint meant to run on hostile inputs !' 'guess wat, unix aint meant to run outside of locked mit hall with 4 pdp-8 in it either' )
asciilifeform: it's 'sound tradeoff' until it aint (e.g. you have system where 'allcomers' can trigger a grep on a data set they crafted, and yer box grinds to a halt )
mircea_popescu: are you discussing the specific case of grep there ? because i do believe it's a sound tradeoff.
asciilifeform: ( with the bonus lul, that sometimes somebody walks in with a http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2906 , and then simply has to 'unhappen' )
a111: Logged on 2015-04-29 13:25 mircea_popescu: "Put another way, grep sells out its worst case (lots of partial matches) to make the best case (few partial matches) go faster. How treacherous! As this realization dawns on me, the room seemed to grow dim and slip sideways. I look up at the Ultimate Unix Geek, spinning slowly in his padded chair, and I hear his cackle "old age and treachery...", and in his flickering CRT there is a face reflected, but it's my ex girl
mircea_popescu: ie, there's occasions where insanity has its place (go no further than http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-29#1115740 ). but this fashion among the scriptkiddies/gnu-amateur crowd for insanity is improductive
asciilifeform: y'know, sorta like how botulinum secretes its magic juice, so nuffin else eats the carcass.
asciilifeform: the type of people who cannot stomach this type of 'thinking', 'engineering', end up self-retiring from unixism entirely, they eat pistol, or learn to run a crane, etc
asciilifeform suspects that the '2mil' figure they got from 'how many in kernel 2.6 and let's times three' or similar
mircea_popescu: they themselves admit 2mn is an upper bound, BY WHICH TOKEN they themselves admit the complification was spurious.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:10 mircea_popescu: now in other lulz, check this out : http://archive.is/89adR#selection-9.9948-9.10055 "This is a special mix of insertion sort and heap sort, optimized for the data sets that actually occur."
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't fucking get it, just HOW FUCKING MANY symbols are they dealing with here ? by the sheer desperation screaming out of the code you'd think a compile produces at least 5 trillion of them.
mircea_popescu: the problem was : as per http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897450 seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897382 -- is there call or isn't there call for such elaborate nonsense. the answer to this problem lies in the size of the dataset, if truly huge then ~perhaps~, but if small certainly not. then we had a discussion to establish whether large or small, which died on the facts, but i resurrected on culprit confession :
mircea_popescu: sure. but we're not discussing the same thing here.
asciilifeform: rright, and this process eats a buncha libs, with n1, n2, ... nN syms in ea., and shits out e.g. another lib, that exports only 7.
mircea_popescu: ie, the thing they "optimized" into insanity never actually has to sort more than mn-level items, ie, no ufcking need to be made out of boats floating on billiard table
mircea_popescu: it's per-instance-of-the-weirdo-optimized-two-head-horse-with-six-earhooves sorting mechanism above runs.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rright, but that's ~per build~, and ea. build destroys symbols ( in the sense that they got statically pumped into the bin, and no longer 'exported' )
a111: Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : heapism per se is a solution to a problem that is ill-posed , and therefore impossible for malloc to be anyffin but an elaborate http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you gotta read the gnu malloc sores sometime. very similar 'thinking'.
mircea_popescu: besides -- at least they function.
mircea_popescu: "/* The count field we have in the main struct object is somewhat limited, but should suffice for virtually all cases. If the counted value doesn't fit, re-write a zero. The worst that happens is that we re-count next time -- admittedly non-trivial in that this implies some 2M fdes, but at least we function. */"
asciilifeform: the process of linking is lossy from pov of symbol count.
asciilifeform: ( this is where asciilifeform cannot resist to 'on bolix, you simply ask the box what all symbols are, and can get source for whichever you point at' etc )
asciilifeform: if you walk ~entire box~ and count symbols, you can get an approximation of the 'universe' count
asciilifeform: you dun see what the called routines 'externed', cuz you had built the libs statically, they pulled in what they pulled in
mircea_popescu: i really have trouble believing the trillion thing.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman is there some way to count the linker objects next time you compile say eulora ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in other news, if they ever send you to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891380 ima suggest your punishment be you hafta literate code extant gnu offerings. you may not change any code, just add comments.
mircea_popescu: (for completeness, approx - "men are of flesh, women, of steel. it shoul've been the other way around, but god's hunchback and not above mistakes ; women say they're flesh, men claim to be steel -- which is why it's dark at night and life a hotel"
asciilifeform: whore can look in guiness book and know approx what will have to take in. engineer on other hand will be given 'proggy may have to run on vax , and microshit, and ... '
mircea_popescu: see, engineers are worse than whores. a whore might pretend like she's not working, but an engineer does inept shit like "/* This should optimize out, but it is wise to make sure this assumption is correct. Should these have different sizes, we cannot cast between them and the overlaying onto ERRATIC will not work. */" so as to ~pretend~ like he doesn't see WHY exactly he wants to take that code out. seriously, ooga-booga-bu
asciilifeform: ^ all gnutardisms are fulla this. cuz otherwise fat change anyone could come up with even a helloworld that builds at all.
asciilifeform: that's the prime mover.
mircea_popescu: so why all this bs, again ? just so nobody has to know what they;'re doing ?
asciilifeform: dynamic! it dun even gotta appear in the obj.
mircea_popescu: but as a factual matter -- object files end up a few mb, and they're not 100% symbol by mass. you jsut can not have this many.
mircea_popescu: which it does not, when's the last time you had 1mn. wtf is all this tim's wondermachines steampunk idiocy for ? can just sort a fucking list
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't fucking get it, just HOW FUCKING MANY symbols are they dealing with here ? by the sheer desperation screaming out of the code you'd think a compile produces at least 5 trillion of them.
asciilifeform: pogrommers. (in the words of an ex- asciilifeform chix )
mircea_popescu: there's programmers, and then there's fuzzgamers. which are more like gamers than grammers.
mircea_popescu: or else you have a workable even set of them
mircea_popescu: well my dear alfie... you build it and see if it crashes. when it stopped crashing, you either got rid of all off-by-ones
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ah right, there was all that huh. american industries.
asciilifeform: the infestation is deep enuff that you quite obv could not make above example actually build reliably on any extant unix. the entire notion of 'portability' as pictured by unixtards (i.e. powered by #ifdefism) precludes it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but you see it as an improvement because you perceive it forces their hands down the right path, whether they want to or not. it's a rapeprovement.
mircea_popescu: you can not in fact define symbols after the fact (and i don't mean just the elf technical term -- all symbols). the only way to define a symbol is by its parents.
mircea_popescu: in fact, there's a long line of illustrious ancestors who, having spotted this problem (wtf is foo ?!) attempted to solve it ~the very wrong way~, ie, by definition. hence not just ai winter, but microscopically naggum's sgi misadventures and so on.
mircea_popescu: (note that the tempting "obvious" approach -- describe foo then!!! -- is not only fucking broken, but broken in the exact way minsky wasted life trying to produce. there can not be ~description~, the only way to induce meaning in the machine is through filiation. v-produced foo has a very strict "wtf is it ??" answer associated, but also very fine and not structure-driven.)
asciilifeform: and whole 'culture' of the lang is formed around this
asciilifeform: the proggies are shite not the least because author ~has nfi what he's throwing into the pot~
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unixtardism suffers from the full spectrum of the idjicies outlined in that 'what gets mircea_popescu raging' article
asciilifeform: as it is, there could be 9000 variants of foo, and on same machine you'll find 900 of'em
asciilifeform: not simply 'fully qualified' , but with knowledge of wtf the item ~is~
mircea_popescu: if they had fully qualified descriptors instead of "filename" it'd be all rosy ?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> maybe just link it ; but even so i'm nopt sure what "uch offers and promises none of these cities would abide the tin woman passing his dick pic around to all her friends that aren't him" means. << ties into the second archive link where... gossip rags are trying to monetize his sexts
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the part where you can #include <foo.h>
asciilifeform holds that the gnu sepsis is a direct and inevitable result of ~how c worx~
mircea_popescu: "socialism doesn't do things properly, it's against the religion. errything must be sorta-halvsies and then forgiven. "
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why not do it properly then, get rid of symbol clashing as a concept altogether, let everything be the last thing it was and be done with it.
mircea_popescu: "but the mechanism for symbol clashing exists for a reason"
a111: Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/084-gutenberg-ii.html << The Tar Pit -- gutenberg.org part zwei, a dissection
mircea_popescu: coincidentally : is anyone from the adacore/gnat/gnarl/whatever days still breathing even ? or 100% bolix situation, "documents at warehouse, i am machinist in charge" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aaah see on my planet kunstkammer is specifically peter's, with the 2headed foeti etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform one of the larger, more impressive books in my parents' library was "welt der kunst". i couldn't read german, but mom explained it's "the world of art" so it populated my childish immagination for a full decade, until old enough to read it. by that time it disappointed -- not that anything could have lived to heights a kid might build in mind over years.
mircea_popescu: i also find caps always truthier if you have log in there somewhere!
asciilifeform: 'proof dun fit in the margin' lol
mircea_popescu: which doesn't seem right to me, either, but it might be built by induction from actual datasets, nfi.
asciilifeform: holyfuq the opensores kunstkammer
mircea_popescu: now in other lulz, check this out : http://archive.is/89adR#selection-9.9948-9.10055 "This is a special mix of insertion sort and heap sort, optimized for the data sets that actually occur."
mircea_popescu: nt that does the exact same thing, but will resolve to the same library as implements __register_frame_info_bases. */
mircea_popescu: "/* ??? Glibc has for a while now exported __register_frame_info and __deregister_frame_info. If we call __register_frame_info_bases from crtbegin (wherein it is declared weak), and this object does not get pulled from libgcc.a for other reasons, then the invocation of __deregister_frame_info will be resolved from glibc. Since the registration did not happen there, we'll die. Therefore, declare a new deregistration entry poi
mircea_popescu: bvt dump the dir for trinque anyway, maybe it helps him. nobody suffered from too much data yet.
bvt: static version should be fine. then would also try it on cuntoo (have it running, the genesis signature still does not match).
diana_coman: I also tend to remember asciilifeform had at some point a signed build; anyway, if it's still needed I can pack ave1's gnat, yes; possibly he'd need both the "static-only" (i.e. latest version) and some previous version
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform diana_coman can either of you package a bin for his bootstrap privately ?
mircea_popescu: it's fucking beautiful. ^ is why german kicks so much ass, there's just no fucking shortage of poetry in it.
mircea_popescu: or actually, "they were most greviously improved"
mircea_popescu: bvt would you say "they were seriously improved" or "gravely improved" ?
mircea_popescu: "they were seriously improved"
bvt: maybe there are two similar issues that are both 'cured' by switching to dynamic linking, but currently i don't think so. i'm using zcx runtime for these tests.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-16 00:32 mircea_popescu: "The issue is that the code generated for __builtin_longjmp reads a value for x29 (the frame pointer) from the jmp_buf, but the code generated for __builtin_setjmp doesn't actually write x29 to the jmp_buf, leading to corruption of x29 when a longjmp occurs.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-16#1897098 seems an exact from-field description of the higher level http://bvt-trace.net/2019/02/gnat-zero-cost-exceptions-and-asynchronous-task-aborting-part-2/#selection-139.335-139.443 problem, doesn't it.
mircea_popescu: ie, if it makes it 100% less probable, "disappear entirely", then it's maybe the same thing ? and if not... could actually be two separate issues ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-16 00:31 mircea_popescu: http://archive.is/x8D5k << apparently they STILL have the issue in gcc 8.
mircea_popescu: bvt --eh-frame-hdr << how much less probable does it make it ? (ie, there's a bunch of old reported stash smashing bugs in gcc, such http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-16#1897096 as from yest), and --eh-frame-hdr protects the stack from being thus corrupted.
mircea_popescu: bvt "Before going into the detail" << that "detail" never takes an article, either definite or indefinite, for some reason to do with english being weird.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in spamlulz, the great ukrainian clinic of surogate medicine drama : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/BrTQl/?raw=true
diana_coman: hmm, now one wonders if the patch made it into gcc 4.9 or not
bvt: i don't think it gcc5-specific, the patch against this problem that i've seen was written for gcc 4.8
a111: Logged on 2014-02-19 15:51 asciilifeform: brother and i played this on our 'Iskra' (xt clone) and combed three different dictionaries to learn what the fuck an osha is
mircea_popescu: imo franco very much like maduro. i dunno if you've looked at dood much, he's 100% ranchero guy, would be way the fuck happier raising cattle, maybe at the most driving a truck. but he's stuck with these idiots.
a111: Logged on 2014-01-16 04:40 asciilifeform: "Sewers caused all our troubles. The masses of this country are not like your Americans, nor even like the British. They are slave stock. They are good for nothing but slaves and only when they are used as slaves are they happy. But we, the decent people, made the mistake of giving them modern housing in the cities where we have our factories. We put sewers in these cities, sewers which extend right down to the
asciilifeform would like to dig up the worx of the http://btcbase.org/log/2014-01-16#446901 fella, but seems like the only surviving copy is in madrid national indianajoneswarehouse
asciilifeform still not fully made sense of franco -- d00d was 'fuhrer' by sheer accident, after mola's plane crash , and possibly only won war cuz other side resembled gavin & co, 9000 rando 'hasta y per siempre' derpfactions
asciilifeform: ( phunphakt, the lenin mummificator maintenance folx are still inbiz )
mircea_popescu: maybe just link it ; but even so i'm nopt sure what "uch offers and promises none of these cities would abide the tin woman passing his dick pic around to all her friends that aren't him" means.
mircea_popescu: btw : Franco is presently interned << interned means someone's in jail. interred means someone's in the earth.
BingoBoingo: rolled over on the small digit
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: ty, and ty for the porn
asciilifeform: very solid 'vhs america' feel to the thing, ~70kg of pb.
asciilifeform: beryllium muzzle of the 'gun' is center top of 2nd photo. auto-exposure ionization gauge is on bottom of 4th.
asciilifeform: in other noose, instrument pr0n : http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/mx20/panel.jpg http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/mx20/inside1.jpg http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/mx20/achtung.jpg http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/mx20/inside2.jpg
BingoBoingo: In other news, odometer on my meat just rolled over
asciilifeform: bvt: your posted tester has the actual abort commented out ( otherwise seems identical to diana_coman's ? )
bvt: they disabled weak symbols for c++/fortran components, http://port70.net/~nsz/musl/gcc-5.3.0/0004-gthr.patch
mircea_popescu: how did they solve it for c++ ?
bvt: i still have no solution for this, afaik musl authors solved the problem for fortran and c++, but gnat seems to lack equivalent knob
mircea_popescu: me either.
bvt: (still tested only with gnat2017, but this is a different story; i see no reason to believe that ave1gnat does not have the same issue)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:36 mircea_popescu: but seems he ALSO found a race condition in the handlers ?
bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895598 << i'd like to briefly report on this: at this point i'm sure that there is a race condition. i'll do a post tomorrow morning on it, but short summary is
mircea_popescu: they lie. part and parcel of http://trilema.com/2017/the-boundless-burden/ is that she ain't ever gonna be as engaged as you think she is, nor as on fetlife as you think she is, nor etc.
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2019/get-lost-dumbo/#selection-1777.110-1777.165 << wat's with all the 'engaged' chix still hanging on fatlife, gotta wonder
asciilifeform: loads via the article, as intended
mircea_popescu: well, i did what the article proposes, set my referrer to trilema permanently, so i always see trilema pics.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-16#1897225 << the former link eggogs, but i think this is by design, on acct of mircea_popescu's anti-hotlinker pill
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/02/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-july-august-and-september-1716-part-v/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of July, August and September, 1716. - Part V.
asciilifeform: ( i dun currently use, but it's definitely going into the final revs of ffa )
asciilifeform: ^ btw diana_coman if you build with -d , the var_xxx liquishit can be made into varnames.
asciilifeform: ^ the magic moment.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/misc/feb_16_adatests_o.html << for utter thread-completeness, the main unit.
asciilifeform: ( to add insult to injury, erry time i post 1 of these, i gotta manually switch font to monospace and remove the winturd line endings, cuz the joys of closedsores proggy )
asciilifeform: incidentally, re the posted htm, no yer box aint broken, there really aint any clickable links therein (why not? in what's undisputably world's best disasmer ? cuz world's best disasmer is actually not so great , compared to what's obviously possible )
mircea_popescu: as per the "this is the shop where we don't have talapia. the shop where they don't have salmon is down the street"
asciilifeform still got good # of the latter
mircea_popescu: the "textbooks" this generation of mostly female, mostly useless college kids don't read are very fucking different from the textbooks we didn't read twenty years ago.
asciilifeform: but the proggy .o seems to be exactly as expected ( if diana_coman has time, can try with the old gnat and see if in fact bitwise-same or not )
asciilifeform: nao this is not a complete answr to 'what does it do, EXACTLY' cuz that also ropes in the ~2MB of standard lib
asciilifeform: ^ near as i can tell, it uses exactly same scheme as the old gnat's sjlj-mode handlers
BingoBoingo: AHA, the perils of searching for keywords so strongly associated with constant failure
diana_coman: asciilifeform, they abort; we are sawing them open because I don't trust it anymore re "what does it actually do exactly"
diana_coman: mircea_popescu yes + I must say I like the idea of "rip'em open after tea" - sounds great; but other than that: I'll try objdump too since after this gnat-adventure I'd rather have some way to look inside it
mircea_popescu: diana_coman it's of course cheaper to just ship the object files to him
asciilifeform: ( 1 of those things for which there aint a complete substitute, sadly, if yer doing serious reversing )
asciilifeform: ( or even if they work )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: if they dun abort and you want another detailed vivisect, feel free to post'em, i'ma rip'em open after tea
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo do you by any chance recall the princeton "trained psychologist" on okcupid who couldn't spell but was nevertheless doing diagnosing over the phone ?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: ida, but objdump -d proc.o will do the job likewise ( in slightly gnarlier format )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, how did you vivisect that pair of binaries? I'd rather do it to see what came out since otherwise I have only this "oh, now it DOES kill tasks!"
a111: Logged on 2019-02-16 02:32 mircea_popescu: so yeah, much like retarded russkis go "oh, we too businessmen, gave $dork state income, now he can buy suit" ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-21#1788430 finest example), the ustards are all "oh, gave computing to wintel, can has tech!!!"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-16#1897170 << they have both types ( bezos et al ) neh
diana_coman: after all the struggle I'm still looking suspiciously at it, lol
a111: Logged on 2019-02-16 10:07 bvt: hello. ave1: doesn't makefile.in in gcc-interface tweak it with sed to the necessary value?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-16 00:53 asciilifeform: they're as diff as x86 an' x64
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-16#1897122 <-- the armv7-armv8 gap is even bigger than x86-x64. armv8 is an entirely new arch, also has 32-bit mode (called aarch32), but that's completely backward incompatible with armv7
diana_coman: ave1, ah, thanks! I'll set it to false and try again then
bvt: hello. ave1: doesn't makefile.in in gcc-interface tweak it with sed to the necessary value?
ave1: I'm currenlty building with it set to False, but it is True in the distributed files
ave1: diana_coman, in system-linux-*.ads (in gcc/ada directory) you'll find the line: ZCX_By_Default : constant Boolean := False;
diana_coman: update re builds: it built fine with --enable-sjlj-exceptions in place, checked it in the log and yes, it's set; but the result still seems to be build ada code with zcx in fact (i.e. my test code with tasks is STILL hung waiting for them to abort) and if I specify --rts=sjlj to gprbuild it complains that there is no native compiler for ada and so can't do anything; ftr I compared the dirs of my adacore install and it has this specific dir
diana_coman: ave1, it was the link that downloaded the gcc src and stuff for adacore2016 ; after that first fail I just copied my own stuff into tarballs/ , packed properly and never really bothered with the rest i.e. it builds all offline now anyway
a111: Logged on 2019-02-15 16:12 diana_coman: hm, full replica might require I upload somewhere the tarballs too since at least 1 link was broken ; anyways, it's with http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl-now-always-static/ + taken out the download script for ada2016 because broken link + added GCC_CONFFLAGS="--enable-sjlj-exceptions" to extraconfig.sh ; set path to point to existing and working adacore 2016 gnat + put all tarballs in their place
ave1: diana_coman, re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1896922, all the links worked this morning, could you tell me which one failed for you?
mircea_popescu: well, if you don't have experience with it or anything, it's not urgent -- can continue with cuntoo, can switch to this, either way.
ave1: not yet, I'm now trying to get the build up and running
ave1: I'll park that and start running the gnat build script.
ave1: and read all the gnat problems
a111: Logged on 2018-03-21 16:44 mircea_popescu: "Like a bad ass she is, she proved to be wise beyond her years by standing head and shoulders (Or is it ass-tall) with the boys." doesn't even INTEND irony, you realise.
mircea_popescu: so yeah, much like retarded russkis go "oh, we too businessmen, gave $dork state income, now he can buy suit" ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-21#1788430 finest example), the ustards are all "oh, gave computing to wintel, can has tech!!!"
mircea_popescu: but everything works exacrtly the same outside of this one detail, specifically as in http://trilema.com/2018/you-know-who-the-best-us-president-was-how-about-andrew-johnson/#selection-317.267-317.1139
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform see, the cardboard "entrepreneurs" don't exist in the us like in the orcistans, as named individuals. they're named... legal persons.
asciilifeform: ( at the time nsa was single largest operator of crays )
asciilifeform: phunnily enuff, there is record that chairman of nsa filed an Official protest during the destruction of orig. cray co.
asciilifeform: usg as early as in 1980s very muchly disliked the existence of multi-vendor high-perf cpu. was too hard to keep from being sold to untermenschen, see.
asciilifeform: note that at the time of death, each and erry one of these archs wiped the floor with intel's offering, esp. per-watt
asciilifeform: all to try an' prop up the wintel nonsense hegemony.
asciilifeform: then they proceeded to wipe out alpha , then hp ( also quite reasonable 'pa-risc' 64-bit irons, i had one ) .
asciilifeform: this killed the (very reasonable) 64bit mips.
asciilifeform: for history aficionados, the opening shot of that slaughter was when sgi was usgized and permitted to swallow cray, and shortly after proclaimed that 'crays' henceforth would be made of pentiums
asciilifeform: ( leaving aside the fact that it is a shit arch on multiple levels of design, much like x86, only real diff is that it dun come with 35 yrs of legacy crapola )
asciilifeform: usg.dept-of-microshit systematically exterminated all the sane archs in late '90s. arm was introduced (from pile of shit 'acorn' in uk) as an 'unprincipled exception' , for pnojeism, which -- try as one might -- dunwork so much on x86 w/ any battery anybody's yet devised
a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 14:33 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624146 << alpha was already half-dead when hp swallowed compaq, in '02. iirc compaq shitburied it in '01 and sold all rights to intel, who proclaimed the arch now known as 'itanic' as its replacement.
mircea_popescu: cursory familiarity with the state of the computing stack (and, implicitly, the utter ridiculousness of any wasp-remnant notions of "the public oppionion" and "wouldn't permit" etc) would have saved that white haired tard a lot of unplesantness down in ecuador embassy.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i would not go so far as to say 'entirely useless', 2ce the bitness gets you 2ce the rsa speed for same clock.
asciilifeform: i found ~one~, chinese, for ~more~ than the cost of serious opteron with complete filling.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-01 02:08 asciilifeform: or the pumping stations ( unmarked on maps, cuz 'strategic', but quite visible from street )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-06 15:44 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there's not so much win from 64 on lappies where max ram e.g. 3GB.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-15 20:02 diana_coman: darn, ofc there are TWO flags to set to the same thing i.e. one for bootstrapper and one for the resulting gnat
asciilifeform: i.e. the latter is pre-alpha quality
asciilifeform: lotsa subtle breakage, cuz the orig wasn't built by thinkin' folx and hence not designed to be 'stretched'
asciilifeform: they're as diff as x86 an' x64
asciilifeform: gcc/common/config/arm/arm-common.c: /* Honor the --enable-sjlj-exceptions configure switch. */
asciilifeform: dig through gnat/gcc sources seems to support hypothesis :
mircea_popescu: yes, but also for say mid 90s to maybe 2000something it was the way to do handling neh
asciilifeform: ( e.g., ffa, built yes on arm64 using ave1's system, but it's spartan to the point of starvation featurewise)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sjlj ? was 'deprecated' Officially, Only A Terrorist(tm) Would Want, was the flavor i got from the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1897058 rotters
a111: Logged on 2019-02-16 00:28 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1897049 << pretty sure there exist aarch64 sjlj compiled kernels.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-16#1897094 << if you actually found this kinda thing, plox to link ( this'd mean the former )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i sank several hours into the dig and did not find whether 'worked, then broken' or 'never written'
mircea_popescu: "The issue is that the code generated for __builtin_longjmp reads a value for x29 (the frame pointer) from the jmp_buf, but the code generated for __builtin_setjmp doesn't actually write x29 to the jmp_buf, leading to corruption of x29 when a longjmp occurs.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1897049 << pretty sure there exist aarch64 sjlj compiled kernels.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-15 17:46 diana_coman: mircea_popescu, my current appreciation is of the sort (tower of shit inside tower of shit )^infinity
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1897029 << myeah, eulora suddenly very fucking useful to teh broader community. i have a good mind to add a few months payroll to the goodwill line, because hory shit.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-15 17:45 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1896926 -> this failed precisely in the same way; need to get to the bottom of it really because Adacore's gnat otherwise IS compiled with sjlj so wtf
BingoBoingo: In local developments, the local dorks have figured out how to get the motorized app managed kick scooters to work
diana_coman: aha; I remembered the pain from first time when yes, whole night
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform when did this, forgot, and then wondered why it grunted for whole night )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: how long do these take to grind on your box btw ?
diana_coman: but I suspect this is not the end of it because the bootstrap will want additional stuff that it probably doesn't yet have set to have etc
diana_coman: mk, so I'll add then: GCC_BOOTSTRAP_CONFFLAGS="--enable-sjlj-exceptions"
diana_coman: darn, ofc there are TWO flags to set to the same thing i.e. one for bootstrapper and one for the resulting gnat
diana_coman: for the bootstrapper you mean?
diana_coman: that's the switch I gave it; let me check in the log too to make sure I didn't dream I actually saw it in there (but for that matter if it didn't, it wouldn't have barfed)
diana_coman: oh hm, on the + it seems at least so far the trouble is indeed on arm only; on the big minus, it seems though that the switch I used is not enough in fact i.e. the result still does not have sjlj rts; so I still need to see what exactly it wants to actually build the sjlj rts too
asciilifeform: 'Fabian Vogt 2014-12-12 15:30:53 UTC If sjlj exceptions are not supported for ARM, shouldn't the configure option be invalid for ARM or at least print a warning? If an option does exist and it simply crashes the compiler during make, it's definitely broken and must be removed.'
asciilifeform: ( note btw that sjlj on backend is a gcc pheature, rather than particular to gnat -- tho gnat naturally has hooks for it, when in use )
BingoBoingo: <PeterL> bingoboingo: when do you plan to do another wff auction? Will you do chunks of 500 wff again? << Next month, I will start at 500 WFF again
asciilifeform: see what happens if you snip out the aarch64 build ( whether chokes same when building x64 gnat )
diana_coman: but obv during the build, it tries to build for all archs
diana_coman: hm, do you mean to say it's because/while it tries to build the one for arm?
asciilifeform: aarch64 == arm64, that's the ave1-baked rk gnat
asciilifeform: hm then why aarch64 ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, this was on smg machine; same machine that in same setup just without "--enable-sjlj" option builds the gnat perfectly fine
asciilifeform: the choke point is an assert, seen at bottom of http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/8yKzH/?raw=true snippet
asciilifeform: ( 'move_insn' seems to be the peephole optimizer on back end. i gotta wonder if it ended up being fed a x64 .o by the linker, and choked on ~that~ )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: were you attempting to build ~x64~ gnat on this ? ftr i was never able to ( with classic zxc variant, this was long before the current thread )
PeterL: bingoboingo: when do you plan to do another wff auction? Will you do chunks of 500 wff again?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, my current appreciation is of the sort (tower of shit inside tower of shit )^infinity
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1896926 -> this failed precisely in the same way; need to get to the bottom of it really because Adacore's gnat otherwise IS compiled with sjlj so wtf
a111: Logged on 2019-02-15 16:45 mircea_popescu: does anyone have any appreciation WHATSOEVEr what a tower of shit all this is ? "oh, we have 3 options of which one sorta works except not in this way -- but the other two, barely at all!"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1896996 << if there exists somewhere a 800+kLoc proggy that ~aint~ a tower o'shit, i have yet to see or even hear of it
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-15#1896982 << the... 'smarter' ( i hesitate to use this word, perhaps 'less retarded..' ? ) winblows folx, long ago threw out av..
deedbot: BingoBoingo rated ragnardanneskjol -5 << Professed to do something, Ate substantial time over several years, if he crawls back out of his whole consider him a navigational hazard who will eat any time you offer him and further waste anytime you spend expecting him to deliver