a111: Logged on 2019-02-22 13:58 spyked: re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897845 : I obtained a ascii-text-only copy of the gutenberg.org archive and it weighs ~18GB; lzma'ed archive of the same is 4.2GB, will post a link in the following days
mircea_popescu: you recall, dude had meltdown over how his brain can't function with "fuckgoats" the string being involved.
mircea_popescu: hmmm... i dun think so tbh, was a DIFFERENT set of these equally indistinguishable amateur shitheads.
asciilifeform remembers this purely from head, but prolly there's a log somewhere
asciilifeform: aa that was in the catv dig
mircea_popescu: was some other pos with some retard defending it in the usual terms of "not nice words" or some similar bs. aaanyways.
mircea_popescu: actually, do you recall those "business" imbeciles discussing "the superior alternative to phuctor" and "what to do in case of divorce" roth-blabla in the same breath ?
asciilifeform: one might naively picture heathens would jump at 'i bring martian tech and +9000 strength of will' etc. but nope. 'we built a++ straw plane, cargo when'
mircea_popescu: there's really a lengthy list of these, "o noes, someone's fundamentally not as fucked in the head as us ?! O GOD SAVE US FROM SUCH HORRORS!!!"
asciilifeform: nope, it's the item mircea_popescu did full postmortem on, linked above
mircea_popescu: i was afraid i dropped a thread there for a moment.
mircea_popescu: a ok then.
asciilifeform: was their proj title
a111: Logged on 2019-02-21 17:18 bvt: i have also seen a one guy at suckless complaining about this back in the day: https://lists.suckless.org/dev/1605/28871.html
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-21#1898560 << http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22suckless%22 turns out ~little and there's apparently no mention ever on trilema, yet it's firmly classified under cat-v in my head. wtf happened here, did we ever say hi or anything ?
mircea_popescu: that has to be there, yeah. might be some flag faggotry tho, i am foggy.
asciilifeform: did not find any hard-dependency on cpp in 4.9 other than when it builds cpp standard lib
a111: Logged on 2019-02-21 17:11 asciilifeform: ^ is this troo ? cuz if yes, possibly we're on the 'wrong' gnat..
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-21#1898554 << afaik was "desired" by the pantsuit core + amateur enablers starting maybe then, but that desire only became factual with 5 branch.
mircea_popescu has spent the past two days @world's largest hotsprings, horseback riding etc, is now looser than an amateur's synapse.
mircea_popescu: hey there asciilifeform
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-21#1898544 yeah, if it weren't fucking dead. lotta these http://trilema.com/2014/bitcoin-in-argentina-exactly-nothing-to-do-with-the-derps/#selection-197.6-197.28 slash http://trilema.com/2018/must-suck-to-be-one-of-you-average-guy-with-a-great-sense-of-humor-losers-seriously-now/#footnote_0_78439 etc littering the internets.
BingoBoingo: http://archive.is/Cb06Q << 12 arrests over 72 grams of drugs during an incursion by Uruguayan police into the separatist republic of Cerro
asciilifeform: they have 9000
asciilifeform: eh so it won't be ~that~ sow, will be some other sow
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/us-pantsuit-precandidate-damned-by-father-for-stereotyping-jamaicans/ << Qntra -- US Pantsuit Precandidate Damned By Father For Stereotyping Jamaicans
BingoBoingo: Banco Bandes Uruguay (a subsidary of the Venezuelan Development bank) is still functioning normally.
asciilifeform: in other hilarities, usg 'humanitarian convoy' set to break through vz border some time this weekend
BingoBoingo: And now the local news is in a panic about FISH! Pirannahs in Salto and "pez sapo" on the "angry beach" in Punta del Este
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The grain just makes it artsy porn
a111: Logged on 2019-02-18 02:58 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897404 << before this gets lost in the chaos of gcc vivisections -- spyked , would be interesting to pry apart the zips & deduplicate , see what the actual text mass adds up to
spyked: re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897845 : I obtained a ascii-text-only copy of the gutenberg.org archive and it weighs ~18GB; lzma'ed archive of the same is 4.2GB, will post a link in the following days
asciilifeform: the win was that it was fast -- no darkroom , expose the little enema-like thing it comes in, then manually masturbate it for min or so, wash, and scan.
asciilifeform: ( i suspect it aint the best 35mm film either, and the 'monobath' developer worsens the already pretty severe grain.. )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: that's prolly last 1 for a while, it's just about the limit of what can be done with the dentist 35mm film
asciilifeform: in entirely other olds, https://repo.or.cz/tinycc.git/blob_plain/HEAD:/arm64-gen.c << current (?) arm64 backend of tcc. ( nfi whether worx -- but pretty compact , as these go. )
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/02/usgalphabetgoogle-claim-they-intended-to-declare-secret-microphones-existence-actually-waited-until-other-people-found-it-now-attempting-to-spam-over-their-treachery/ << Qntra -- USG/...ogle Claim They Intended To Declare Secret Microphone's Existence, Actually Waited Until Other People Found It, Now Attempting To Spam Over Their Treachery
asciilifeform: based on looking at the src, ^ appears to be troo re ave1's, and the claim on bootstrappable.org -- disinfo
asciilifeform: lotsa .cc ( also cpp ) , but not clear that they're part of gcc proper, rather than cpp standard lib. will require a proper walk (or , alternatively, to rebuild the thing with flags banning cppism and see if barfs )
asciilifeform: so entirely possible that the '4.7' thing is disinfo
asciilifeform: a quick look at the ave1gnat src reveals ~2dozen .cpp , but they all look to be part of the cpp test suite
bvt: i have also seen a one guy at suckless complaining about this back in the day: https://lists.suckless.org/dev/1605/28871.html
bvt: but version 4.9 looked healthy (i.e. plain c, did not see any cpp code there). i had a look at a single file, though, so this is no guarantee.
asciilifeform: if there is, it must go.
bvt: i have seen reports of this, but never verified myself. my understanding is that there is a slow c++zation of gcc: i backported one gcc patch for my home system from 6 to 4.9, this involved removing c++ chunks.
asciilifeform: ^ is this troo ? cuz if yes, possibly we're on the 'wrong' gnat..
asciilifeform: other interesting claims, in https://bootstrappable.org/projects.html we find that 'The C and C++ compilers of the GNU Compiler Collection make up the foundation of many free software distributions. Current versions of GCC are written in C++, which means that a C++ compiler is needed to build it from source. GCC 4.7 was the last version of the collection that could be built with a plain C compiler'
asciilifeform: bvt: imho still worth a test-fire, i'm curious if even given the stated conditions the thing runs
asciilifeform: ok this didn't take long... claims to 'bootstrap from 500 byte assembler', in opening page, but then : 'GNU Guile, version 2.0.13 or later, including 2.2.x; GNU Make. NYACC, 0.86.0 is known to work. GCC’s gcc, version 2.95.3 or later.'
asciilifeform: i admit, will be surprised if it actually does what's printed on the box, and still i never heard of it
asciilifeform: in other olds, http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/tinycc-devel/2005-09/msg00054.html << report re how gcc built with tcc ( spoiler : ancient gcc, and still required some patching )
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/02/philosophical-transactions-for-the-months-of-september-and-october-1715-account-of-books-ii/ << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of September and October, 1715. - Account of Books - II.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you can muster the juice, wainot try an' wake him . iirc mircea_popescu has a ~100% 1shot 1kill record for these.
mircea_popescu: supports all the targets qemu does, B) can build linux and busybox and uClibc and itself (thus providing a self-bootstrapping system; I'd upgrade busybox to have missing bits like "make"). << maybe HE could be doing the tcc work, at any rate.
mircea_popescu: Someday if I get back to this topic, I want to glue either sparse or the tcc front end to qemu's tcg back end and produce a new compiler that A)
asciilifeform: 'My wife's name is Fade. We got married at Penguicon 2007. Fade's boss Steve Jackson officiated, and Eric Raymond was best man. (The wedding fit into a 1 hour panel slot and was moved once so as not to conflict with an Elizabeth Bear panel Fade wanted to attend, and a Charlie Stross panel Steve wanted to attend. Yes, we're all that geeky.)'
mircea_popescu: There were functions named g() and o() <<< bwahahaha.
mircea_popescu: anyway, has a shitty html blog, all the symptoms people go through in that quarter or two between when they get the republic illumination and when they become actually useful/productive.
asciilifeform: wainot run along with his own patch chain, not giving fuck re other end
mircea_popescu: ers side of the great bazaar brawl.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: is the quoted item bellard ? or sumbodyelse
mircea_popescu: "hen I stopped work on my fork, the other project stopped, but when I started up again, so did they. All I was doing was keeping the CVS tree just active enough to exclipse mine, and I was tired of it."
mircea_popescu: basically, the cunts were just taking dood's patches and dropping them in their toilet.
mircea_popescu: "(People sent me bug reports about the 0.9.24 release. Yeah, that release contained a lot of code copied out of my tree into CVS, but the release was based on CVS, not on my tree.) By 2008 as CVS sank into obsolecense, TCC had clearly decided to go down with the ship. No matter how much work I put into my fork it would never eclipse the "official" tcc project (which could of course read my code to advance their tree)."
mircea_popescu: this is actually more substantially gnu than any tech/engineering/cs/anything. invidious wikitards rather than anything else.
mircea_popescu: "This used to be the page for my fork of Fabrice Bellard's Tiny C Compiler, but I got sick of competing with a mostly dead CVS archive that nevertheless remained "official". Every time I worked on my fork it inspired new work in the old CVS archive, and every time I set my fork aside the old project ground to a halt. Even though the old tcc project repeatedly stagnated whenever I stopped working on my fork for a few months, n
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lang that quietly locks ~errything behind yer back, whether you wanted or not, does tend to run 'at speed of 1 core', a la python
asciilifeform: i suppose this is good news, trinque ( i feared that he had gone to the bottom )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-21 01:45 mircea_popescu: but the ensemble will not move at the speed of a single core will it ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-21 02:06 asciilifeform: ... which means they're liable to all end up on 1 physical cpu, lol
asciilifeform: (c) also dun play very well with the underlying (b) that one is forced to contend with if you actually want physical parallelism, at least not w/out extraordinary care
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:02 mircea_popescu: trinque did you ever see the guy irl lately ? say this year or something ?
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898077 << he's alive and well, sinfully busy atm helping me chase down some cash. sends his regards to the republic
asciilifeform: (c) is generally not an option in lightweight ('scripting') langs, so these generally end up (a)
asciilifeform: Mocky: they forgo threading cuz on c machine you have exactly 3 options : a) forgo threading (i'ma not detail python's 'forgo threading and then lie about it' as separate variant, it is beneath contempt) b) sit down on unix's threads (pthread) c) implement own scheduler
asciilifeform: some things are simply steaming piles of shit, from which there is nuffin to say, and the only use of which is that one can make a few bux cleaning'em up
asciilifeform: Mocky: i sympathize re that you toiled in it for 20y; for my part , i work with... microshit kernel diddles etc, for bread. but i'll be the last to say 'here's what we can learn from microshit' (afaik there is ~0 to be learned from microshit, other than how to run the hell away)
asciilifeform: there, 'what is original, aint good, and what was good, aint original'
asciilifeform: there ~are~ dead langs that got something right.
asciilifeform: the threads (they were 'lightweight', i.e. zcx-like, things, but with termination (and restart!) mechanism) were snapshottable objects, to the extent that the runtime knew how to move'em between not only cpus but machines, and in such a way that the proggy continued w/out interruption (if e.g. machine catches fire and its threads gotta move before fire reaches cpu etc)
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:50 asciilifeform: trinque: erlang wasn't simply about 'uptime', or even 'no pointer arithmetic', it also was the only case i know of where process migration actually worked
a111: Logged on 2017-03-30 14:38 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i will also nitpick : 'erlang' does not belong in the list, it was a 1980s product that worked quite well in its industrial niche (large telco switches) but was later stolen and used as a totem by the folx from yesterday's thread ( http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-29#1633873 )
a111: Logged on 2015-06-22 21:22 mircea_popescu: ascii_field this goes right into our discussion about how the only reason lisp is ok where c is shot is that the hordes haven't sat on lisp but on c, would have been the other way around if they had sat the other way.
asciilifeform: Mocky: not a 'puzzle lang', tho i can see how you might've come to the conclusion ( it's been suffering from heavy case of http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-22#1172831 )
Mocky: erlang I did look at briefly, but not the concurrency, seemed to me like a puzzle lang
asciilifeform: ... which means they're liable to all end up on 1 physical cpu, lol
asciilifeform: cuz they dun map to native threads
asciilifeform: sounds like reads locked by default then
asciilifeform: srsly the ~fortran~ people understood this. in 1990.
asciilifeform: i found the thread model just as ridiculous as that of pthreads.
Mocky: I'm not defending java, I'm stating that in addition to pile of shit, theres a coherent memory model, thread model that is not agony to work with.
asciilifeform: ... and where they added iterators 15 yrs after lang released, to great fanfare
asciilifeform: eh it's the lang that made e.g. integers a 'non-class' object and thereby non-storable in lists etc
Mocky: i'm not saying they solved threading once and for all, or that eliminated deadlock. any system that allows you to acquire locks in different order can be deadlocked. i'm just saying that there are concurrent primitives that can be understood and which have guaranttes that hold
asciilifeform: and i wrote 9000 proggies that produced diff answer erry time they ran depending on what the thread gods felt like that day
mircea_popescu: Mocky so if i declare a procedure which increments a global and a local counter, and then call it in a loop from multiple threads, at the end the globa lflag will contain the sum of the local flags ?
asciilifeform: dunno, the multithread java they had us homework at uni, deadlocked as easily as farting.
Mocky: there are explicit and implicit semantics, but if you read the spec, you know what you'll get. multiple threads setting a value on the same variable never create garbage
Mocky: I mostly agree. They did manage a coherent threading model / memory model which turns out to be the thing I miss when I'm writing in something else
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:50 asciilifeform: really oughta have ~1~ compiler, and for a sane arch; and if yet cannot afford to actually siliconize the sane arch, then the sad iron oughta be booting straight in bios to a compact (asmistic) emulator of same
Mocky: i mean, entire jvm is c/c++ and filled with c/c++isms so not exactly in the direction of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898128 , more in the direction of 'just want to' cross platform
Mocky: I was hopeful back in the day at java chip and java os, nothing worthwhile surfaced
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 16:08 asciilifeform: various folx attempted something roughly like this, but succumbed to own idiocy -- e.g. the java people, who 1) wrapped their 'vm' around the nonsensical shape of their tardlang 2) stopped short of 'and no this doesn't run on your tard os, is IS the os, fuckyou' ;
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898149 I know of a couple attempts at java os, one I installed on my Compaq iPaq in 2002. but they were shit
BingoBoingo: Dead cop further down page than dead graffiti communist punk
BingoBoingo: And in still other lols: "Policía fue encontrado muerto, atado de pies y manos; la Fiscalía investiga: Murió ahogado en una cantera de Las Piedras. Sin embargo la principal hipótesis es la de un suicidio." >> https://www.subrayado.com.uy/policia-fue-encontrado-muerto-atado-pies-y-manos-la-fiscalia-investiga-n526964
BingoBoingo: From the mines: "Viví 6 meses en Madrid y varias veces se me rieron en la cara (la mayoría empleados públicos, y una vez en un banco) por mi manera de hablar, pero mi peor experiencia fue en entrevistas de trabajo donde me dijeron que el problema era que no hablaba español." - Some Uruguayo
hanbot: right right, i mixed 'em up. and yeah, i'm planning on grabbing phf's keccak v.py in step 3, if only because i've seen diana_coman's pop up in cuntoo tests so i'd like to test the ver less traveled.
a111: 2018-10-23 <esthlos> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-19#1864316 << apologies alf, I'm running behind! trying to gather time to get caught up in the next week or two
asciilifeform: hanbot: v.py actually exists in modern ( keccakistic ) incarnation -- there's 2 variants, largely identical , diana_coman's (the 1 i use now) and phf's (he had some incompatibility in his python iirc which required own variant)
asciilifeform: hanbot: other nitpick -- v.py is asciilifeform's orig. demo; v.pl is mod6's vtron
mircea_popescu: hanbot write down the whole story as you go, but basically yes.
hanbot: in bootstrapping adventures, it looks like the flow for a machine that knows to v to get vtools going is like so: grab some ancient v, ie mod6's v.py, use it to press phf's vtools vpatch, then eat phf's v.py "updated for vtools", then press vtools to keccak head. anyone feel like spotting this for me?
BingoBoingo: And across the river Argentines can't afford coca-cola anymore https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/argentina-coca-cola-femsa-anuncia-reestructura-laboral-por-baja-en-el-consumo-201922018333
asciilifeform: i find it hard to picture how a sane cpu, where optimizing compiler is 10k loc and 'fits in head', could have no market. but then again the bolix people proved that it ~is~ possible to go broke with one.
asciilifeform: (e.g. FG, for instance, was drawn up from the start to be siliconizable w/out any major change, if/when time comes)
asciilifeform: we dun lack the 'how' ; if mircea_popescu commissions an iron, i'ma draw up an iron. q is how to massage to pay itself.
asciilifeform: iron ? the most delish, imho, spot conceivable. but -- expensive.
mircea_popescu: kinda makes it a particularly delicious spot to rape the femstate.
asciilifeform: ( current pc arch 'standard', to the extent it exists even, is a microshit authorship )
asciilifeform: likewise you can't buy a southbridge that dun do the acpi liquishit, cuz again microshit decree.
asciilifeform: you can't, for instance, buy a x64 that ~only runs in 64 mode~ : no, you gotta have the (broken) msdos compat, inner 386, etc. cuz winblowz.
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 21:55 ascii_butugychag: the whole point of engineering is to cut apart the happenstance-linked crud from what you actually want.
asciilifeform: the worst thing, imho, is that the 'baseless distinction' is quite often 'in one strand' with actual distinction -- e.g. the 'speshul olympics' of x86 vs arm : both are shit archs, but 1 has 35 yrs of compat-crud, and eats 100x the wattage vs other
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 23:14 mircea_popescu: "who do you think will win, mr 13, the team with two guys and monkeys or the team with three guys and monkeys ?"
mircea_popescu: there MAY NOT exist "conflict" on baseless distinctions, which goes right the fuck into the whole http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-09#1641209
mircea_popescu: ie, whenever you encounter "competitions" of malformed nonsense, you're exactly in the position of the ~spectator~ to special olympics.
mircea_popescu: i suppose the pov where design is ~constrained~ activity, and the concept of "design competition" must strictly describe a situation where machine a with 64 registers of which one is mask and machine b with 64 registers + ONE separate mask register compete.
asciilifeform: the tard arch people passed the 'register killing' ball to compiler, as result bloating ~all~ compiler with massive gnarl, ~just for reg killing logic~
asciilifeform: and , mircea_popescu , this is just the needle point on the tip of retardation iceberg.
mircea_popescu: let me guess, the same fucking people who made mul without carry.
mircea_popescu: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46#selection-47.1021-47.1284 << this, incidentally, is a fine example. who THE FUCK came up with the notion of making "registers" ~without~ making a) as many of them as the bus width and b) a special register which keeps a mask of registers, so that PUSH only actually occurs if needed ?
asciilifeform: currently i suspect that the corpse of tcc is 1 of the moar fuckable corpses in the unixtardation graveyard, tho.
asciilifeform: i confess, did not follow the thing's trajectory into the ground, do not know which fashionable insanity in particular it followed as it died of immunocompromise
mircea_popescu: i mean, "<asciilifeform> nao it resembles minix, 100x the mass of the original, and ~less~ function" <mircea_popescu> yeah, but it's in ruby, or w/e the fuck unity.
mircea_popescu: yeah, but it's in ruby, or w/e the fuck unity
asciilifeform: bellard himself abandoned it, not the least reason , near as i could tell, was that he did not relish idea of maintaining 9000 backends
mircea_popescu: (note: "lists.gnu.org" moved to "lists.nongnu.org"). and other keks.
mircea_popescu: sounds like he did a lot of the same stuff here contemplated. shoot fellow an arrow maybe ? is he old ?
mircea_popescu: ah the tcc thing ?
a111: Logged on 2019-01-16 02:24 mod6: This all started because we need a new door, it's old as shit, and all the weather stripping is bad, etc. So of course, this isn't std door size. So I paid some good money to have a custom one made to size. When the carp came out to install it, the first thing he did was pull off one piece of molding, and stuck his file down in the bottom area where that joist is located, and it pushed right through.
mircea_popescu: shit's exactly in the position of mod6's famous house, http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-16#1887503
mircea_popescu: moreover, the recent exception handling discussions & digs exposed most eminently the hole the shit's in. you could improve on gcc right now, just by fixing its idiotic tokenizers, "optimized" log n-onsense ans so forth.
mircea_popescu: this isn't the q. there's exactly one thing that shits bytecode. much like in 2011 there was exactly 1 thing that extended the blockchain.
asciilifeform: it's at the mpi confiscation stage atm.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:41 mircea_popescu: it seems rather obvious that the 2020-2025 republican future will consist of a whole lotta http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897560 http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897468 etc as we unwind the "optimizing" part in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897829 and discover a whole lotta http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897689 and http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897536
mircea_popescu: anyway, to land this far going baloon : currently, the large chunk of sanification work will likely still be http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898113 ; there's no way to have a world without a backend, there's no way to learn how to build one without unpacking the only one that exists, and so on.
mircea_popescu: update your link too, and there we go
asciilifeform: or the 'bus width is handful of bytes' nonsense
asciilifeform: for instance -- the expectation that ram contents vanish when plug is pulled ( entirely avoidable since, what, late '90s or so ) ; or that machine is permitted to crash ( subj discussed in detail in log, crash oughta be seen as same calamity as catching fire , and this pov is entirely practical )
asciilifeform: and fails to provide locking in iron primitive, which gives the fungal bloom of software threading deadlock etc
mircea_popescu: there is that.
mircea_popescu: and that b) it is likely to be easier to start picking low hanging fruit from right rather than left, simply because cheaper fruit lowerly hanging there.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the obvious alternative, factually there as holes follow fills and so on, is "approach from code end". and this approach'd be something like a ~proper~ standards lib. ie, both with proper access and proper primitives.
mircea_popescu: very early 1500s medicino-chemistry-philosophical-barbershop flavour to the whole field.
mircea_popescu: fucking bs "science" where ALL the notiuons are broken.
mircea_popescu: which is the point, it's a waste of time to consider "how linus separated" or "how rms thought should be separated". whoile thing's built on magic musherooms, "sky quadrants" etc.
asciilifeform: the unix 'tower of layers', nominally separable, is spurious ( but mircea_popescu knew this ).
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm aware, evolved not designed. nevertheless, the fundamental breakage here is that glibc is proposed as a "library" rather than a "kernel mod". not that these terms make any fucking sense anyway, but what the fuck am i gonna do.
asciilifeform: the central imho open q is, how much of the iron's retardation can be kept out of such a system.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in pctardation land, it's a consequence of the (massively failed, historically) attempt to hack around the fact that erry peripheral has free run of entire bus
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the large problem here is that the ast will have to be ultimately a homomorphism of machine language. which is the dubious part in the "emulator" pov.
mircea_popescu: to follow the logic : the notion that you'd have a kernel mod to interface with peripherals, but not with code, is somewhat bizarre.
asciilifeform: ( has : translator, from various preferred lang syntaxes to the actual machine coad, but without massive expansion of the ast )
asciilifeform: in asciilifefor's cosmography, sane machine has neither 'linker' nor 'compiler' in the customary sense
mircea_popescu: terminology fails, mostly because terminology was made by morons and we're trying to discuss analysis in roman numerals here, but consider "glibc" would be a... well i guess a kernel mod the program links against as a library ?
asciilifeform: rather than '1 moar layer'
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's hypothesis, is that it is only worth to add a layer if you can remove dozen by doing so
asciilifeform: moar concretely, e.g. memory allocator -- attempts to put sane one on top of linux's, all caught fire in very similar way, i.e. impedance mismatch ( whether libc's or java's or commonlisp's )
mircea_popescu: but srsly now, the "standards lib" lets me print to screen but not print to ram ? wut.
mircea_popescu: or in other words, the overlap is large even if the barbarians cut it wrongly and on the basis of their cuts it seems to not be\
asciilifeform: it's a forced failure, in the sense that it is imposed by trying to be a layer on top of os, rather than os per se
mircea_popescu: ie, the fact that glibc doesn't come with sane memory allocator ~is a failure of glibc~.
mircea_popescu: certainly. but once you start talking about unified abi, you're very much starting there.
asciilifeform: i'm not currently certain that there is any meaningful overlap.
mircea_popescu: but the overlap is large.
asciilifeform: the appeal of 'emulate sane iron' is partly 'now can has readable disasms for errything', and partly 'can then bake actual iron around same'
mircea_popescu: then again this whiole discussion is moot, because step 1 towards that magical bios asm blob is a tmsr standards lib to replace glibc anyway.
mircea_popescu: even so. as far as reading goes, you still read it the same number of times, whether it's linked or bios'd.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in practice, given static link, it's duplicated 9000 times, rather than single.
mircea_popescu: the 2nd gets linked in however many binaries you wish, still is a single item.
asciilifeform: consider from pov of 'what is total mass of binary that has to be audited'. in which case is the mass smaller : where there are 9000 bins on the machine, each consisting 90% of a coupla MB of 'bounds check this array' and 'propagate this exception' ? or if the 1 runtime does these, and the bins -- invoke.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform large part of people's complaints re leverage are insane. take the recent naggum piece discussed, he complains, literally, that "he wants to lie once rather than everywhere". duh, no sed where this man lives ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's never cheaper to have a coupling than a straight link. nevertheless, couplings are used.
asciilifeform: rright but you want to put the sweat into item that gets leveraged, rather than duplicated 9000 times, is the notion.
mircea_popescu: other than this, the "we don't want to fuck our brains with $bad-arch" is a dead end -- you will, whether to write gcc for it or to write bios for it.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:49 asciilifeform: re bolix back end, i suspect it aint very useful as starting point, because was far ~too easy~ item , in that the iron per se was sane (i.e. performed bounds and type checks, so much of what gcc is stuck doing in soft, was unnecessary )
mircea_popescu: the obvious counter there will be "but not cheaper than baking ONE sane gcc". which is true, but nevertheless not as useful -- sometimes having an interface, even if "spurious" is better than not having it, which is why parents don't customarily discuss family finances with their 12yos.
asciilifeform: it's a quite serious set of open problems, many documented by asciilifeform in the log (e.g. how to drive nic?)
asciilifeform: there is no magical stone.
mircea_popescu: understand tho, it has a very visible facet of wishful thinking. i mean yes, obviously, way the fuck better to have all the needful stuff in one place than added to each binary. this much is certain. nevertheless, the notion that you can stuff a converter from insanity to sanity "in the bios" requires just as much a magical stone as any other "universal sanity-insanity bridge".
asciilifeform put ~decade into various attempts at $subj, but ~0 forward motion until made the sage breakthrough and gained ability to debug bios. but has been on back burner in preference to moar urgent tmsrisms ever since
asciilifeform: ( specifically -- is Right Thing ? and if yes, then how much sweat is worth to put into keeping ye olde gcc alive, and how much sweat instead for same ? and what oughta be in it ? )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:57 asciilifeform: the Right Thing will look roughly like a 256kB chunk of asm that the box boots straight into, and afterwards forgets that it's an x86, arm, etc.
asciilifeform: at some pt before upstack thrd gets lost in the sands of time -- would like to see mircea_popescu's ex cathedra pov re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898145 , when he has the time
asciilifeform: i suppose if suit already brought, likely there's already a thiel.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform plenty of them. it's profitable, see.
mircea_popescu: the problem with common law is that it dun work.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: If anything the tort in this case is clearer
mircea_popescu: see, the old british ban on champerty & maintenance meanwhile dead. the fact that it happened to rando kid dun matter, trial can be bought.
BingoBoingo: Recently (within the past two months) WaPo's slate magazine hired one of the more flamboyant Gawker alumni to do a "sex column" with some burnt out porn chick turned old woman
mircea_popescu: dood thought he can get just the nobel prize.
mircea_popescu: apparently if you sign up to star in one usg.blue production, you're stuck doing all the sequels also.
mircea_popescu: for that matter -- lulz of all time here, oscar arias, very much http://trilema.com/2019/wild-is-the-wind/#footnote_1_82681 item, now #metoo'd.
mircea_popescu: watch them lose, get gutted, etc. anyone recall ALL THE OTHER pantsuit vehicles, meanwhile gutted in exact same manner ?
mircea_popescu: apparently the dogs can learn to give it a berth. great perfume too
asciilifeform: re the penicillin -- also compactly summarized in http://trilema.com/2014/the-all-american-asshole-in-his-own-words-with-my-own-notes/#selection-3501.0-3501.226
asciilifeform: ( cabbage -- much moar toxin by mass, but we have the enzymes )
asciilifeform maintains a kind of purgatory for these , in #a, and it is quite cheap on acct of the fact that usually only takes'em a coupla hrs to realize that no, this aint the fungal farm, fungal farm is three doors down, and then go to where their place is.
asciilifeform: the benighted folx who 'wai is mircea_popescu so eager to hit us with spiked club', i can tell they never cell cultured.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898163 << could be quite interesting read. didjaknow, for instance, that the javatards got showered with enuff printolade that they baked chips ? and that none of these were in any sense commercial success ?
asciilifeform: also matters to actually plow the field, and even matters with what (iron beats wooden stick) and so forth.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898157 << i dun even disagree that nuffin's worth doing if you don't kill the locusts first. but also imho gotta other things , the result of 'pesticide uber alles' agriculture is monsantostan.
mircea_popescu studiously and quite deliberately ignored the whole thing as a wikitarida/reddit of its time.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 16:08 asciilifeform: various folx attempted something roughly like this, but succumbed to own idiocy -- e.g. the java people, who 1) wrapped their 'vm' around the nonsensical shape of their tardlang 2) stopped short of 'and no this doesn't run on your tard os, is IS the os, fuckyou' ;
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898149 << why. cuz republic without republic, how the fuck is it supposed to stand.
mircea_popescu: as long as the tim swansons of the world remain an oppressed minority, the world can be sane ; and not futher.
mircea_popescu: it shouldn't be difficult to notice that the "gcc plugging wrong end of funnel" is not simple coincidence, but the necessary result of the feelings and optionalities these idiots perceive themselves to be having without actually having them.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:54 asciilifeform: i hold that the answr to the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898121 quandary depends on whether the right cut of that knot is made. and imho ^ is that cut.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898132 << absolutely not. it strictly depends on whether we can continue maintaining the productive atmosphere, in which http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892732 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-30#1876358 etc continue to be pissed in the face in the most baffling and painful manner where they feel that "they have horsepower" and the measurement comes back "get the fuck lost, moron".
asciilifeform: or the deathbed bolix people, who did ~99% of the job but sank on the titanic of the dec alpha, the only arch they managed to massage into compliance before ran out of dough
asciilifeform: or gabriel_laddel, who thought that linux kernel is an acceptable item to build the '256kB' out of, through power of magical thinking
asciilifeform: various folx attempted something roughly like this, but succumbed to own idiocy -- e.g. the java people, who 1) wrapped their 'vm' around the nonsensical shape of their tardlang 2) stopped short of 'and no this doesn't run on your tard os, is IS the os, fuckyou' ;
asciilifeform: nao tbf, this approach was not available to the gnu people, on acct of sheer poverty of 1980s, when erry byte & cycle counted, and 'must not waste' , yer entire memory space in 1985 might be 256kB. but today plenty of 'what to waste', why not 'waste' for actual gain ( like bitcoin 'wasted' mains current ) , rather than microshit/gnu-style.
asciilifeform: i strongly suspect that any other approach to the problem (i.e. 'we'll do exactly what the gnutards did, but they were mice and we are men' ) is certain to degenerate into ~same rubbish as what the gnutards ended up with.
asciilifeform: yer still stuck with certain idjicies of iron (e.g. dma) but then when finally bake new iron, you have a ready compiler & userland to plant on it, that actually behaves.
asciilifeform: the Right Thing will look roughly like a 256kB chunk of asm that the box boots straight into, and afterwards forgets that it's an x86, arm, etc.
mircea_popescu: otherwise what, every useless 30something female with crotch rot under fluorescent lighting, also "is doing a lot of work" because she "feels" so ?
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit some insane nonsense "feels like" it's doing "a lot of work". the work done is measured at the useful end.
asciilifeform: it was this very front that asciilifeform published the sage thing for.
mircea_popescu: that "% of horse power" is entirely not % of horse power ; the measure of horse power is at the torque end, not at horse's feelings end.
mircea_popescu: imo is the perfect approach to "you wish to use insane hw, you pay cost for it".