assbot: The news, in brief : "Hearn is a shitstain, MP is right, fuck reddit. Love, Satoshi" on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Eyf7mo )
mircea_popescu: nubbins` http://trilema.com/2015/the-news-in-brief-hearn-is-a-shitstain-mp-is-right-fuck-reddit-love-satoshi/#comment-115061
trinque: chick can't keep it together
mircea_popescu: they'll refuse, and in that you'll know what the demand for more kyc bitcoin "Exchanges" is.
mircea_popescu: williamdunne so call up nsa, tell them "hey, i'm another derpy kid trying to suck of your tit, send me 10k ?"
mircea_popescu: generally it's "the proof i am smart enough to have small projects is i nthe pudding of how i have enough money laying around to invest in them". it's how people get redecoration done and their hobbies financed.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: basic problem is that the beneficiaries of bigger-block are not paying for the cost of cannot-have-buried-node
mircea_popescu: williamdunne uh. mno ? what IS the project, that's where it starts.
mircea_popescu: the whole pogo thing was a few k's. this thing is k's of btc
mircea_popescu: ascii_field still, i tell you i don't see it. if the bitcoin userbase legitimately makes > 1mb of txn every 10 minutes, and if the miners are willing to indulge them and mine to the degree the ratchet kicks in, seems at best disingenuous to say "you can't do that because pogos".
jurov: williamdunne: advertise them here?
ascii_field: not if the capacity exceeds any legal block's weight.
ascii_field: but they fall behind ~en masse~
mircea_popescu: if you end up with 2k actually full bloicks and the state is now 1010000 bytes, you still can have blocks 50kb
mircea_popescu: the max anus stretches.
ascii_field: because the anus stretches, so to speak
ascii_field: nah but they don't need to stay full
mircea_popescu: ascii_field looky : blocks would only stay full if needed full. so our pogo is a piece of shit in that case, you can't expect them to accomodate us.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla in that sense iot's a step above the "magic number" stuff. not much, admittedly.
ascii_field: it is already close to the edge of keeps-up-in-realtime
mircea_popescu: let's start with some assumptions : that as is, pogos can survive for 2 years before they fill. that if blocks were to be made 2mb, they'd survive 1 year instead.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field let us calculate the actual case of the pogo, shall we ? as an exercise, mostl;y for my own edification.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla no, by code evaluating the mining.
kakobrekla: so the load Atlas has to carry will be determined by miners instead of code.
mircea_popescu: just... whence will they scare up enough txn to keep filling up thousdands of large blocks ?
mircea_popescu: i can certainly see the argument in this structural sense.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: the reason i consider ratcheting (and, ergo, growing at all) blocks to be a situation of 'enemy can deal more damage than he has to pay for' is that even if people pay per kB, ~actual machines are pots of finite depth~
mircea_popescu: the entirety of this is "if people actually really really want to see it growing", no more.
mircea_popescu: this is a purely theoretical notion.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-08-2015#124048 << the best argument i can come up with, after some searching, is "we will need to find a real value. we have a current value, which works, but about which we know for a fact is not too large. therefore, it might be the case it's too small."
mircea_popescu: and yes it makes the future worth seeing now. /me hopes to oneday trade marscoin for venuscoin.
ascii_field: but it brings interesting gedankenexperiment: picture the usual mars colony
ascii_field: not like you could maintain a single blockchain over astronomical distances, either
ascii_field: what the hell is wrong with 1MB-until-heat-death-of-universe ?
mircea_popescu: this given, the design proposed is a) expensive to abuse and b) self-limiting, in that the larger you make the blocks, the more you have to fill.
mircea_popescu: so a ratchet is necessarily, and indisputably, and by unfixable design the only way to do that.
mircea_popescu: but to get back to the ratchet thing : it is both impossible and a very stupid idea to have freefixing for bitcoin block size. because the network is trivial to disrupt when it comes to mining difficulty (by design and deliberately), it will guaranteedly be moved down to 0 over time and the defense's necessarily too expensive.
mircea_popescu: that explains it anyway, spain's got no gold in the ground.
mircea_popescu: aha. the argentines well squandered it meanwhile.
ascii_field: 'Stalin had his eye on the Spanish gold because Spain had a mother lode of it. This was owing to the fact that twenty years prior, Spain had been neutral in World War I. During that war, Spain exported so much to the belligerents, without being able to buy in return, that it stacked up foreign exchange and turned it in for gold. The same thing had happened across the neutral nations, from Argentina to Holland to the
ascii_field: http://www.forbes.com/sites/briandomitrovic/2011/05/09/there-be-moscow-gold << american piece re: same
mircea_popescu: no wonder the regime lived ok for a while lol.
gribble: Moscow gold - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_gold>; Stalin and the Spanish Civil War - Gutenberg-e Home: <http://www.gutenberg-e.org/kod01/frames/fkod16.html>; The story of the Moscow gold: How the Spanish war was lost: <http://www.katesharpleylibrary.net/08kq1c>
ascii_field: until deliverocalypse like stalin's 'spain will see the gold like it will see own ears without mirror' or usg's equiv. for de, etc.
mircea_popescu: "they're not smart, like us, to let their cognitive wings spread free in the intergalactic voids of abstraction"
mircea_popescu: delivery and washing dishes are in about the same esteem.
mircea_popescu: irl, settlement's a paperwoirk affair and actual delivery is much disconsidered. as a token of the fact that everyone involved would muchly want reality to match their representation to the degree of absolute identity. so they desconsider the later.
ascii_field thought it was called 'settlement' when two hawaladars or equiv. zero out their tally by finally moving the gold (plutonium, etc)
mircea_popescu: it's not called settlement, it's called delivery. settlement is sitting down and agreeing the paperwork.
mircea_popescu: the paperwork has to be, anyway.
ascii_field: ah if tx is arbitrary knapsacking of n bar types, then yes
ascii_field: then 3 bit.
mircea_popescu: i would guess there's to the tune of 1mn interbank PM physical transfers a year worldwide. i don't think i'm qualified to answer either, but i will swear to your benefit the real figuree's closer to 1mn than 1k no prob.
mircea_popescu: because one hour i spent in the ro vault, which is a tiny affair, saw three transfers underway.
ascii_field: hence asked others.
mircea_popescu: yes, actually, they would.
ascii_field: all the world's bullion transfers, if written out as a log, would they even fill 1MB in a year?
ascii_field: aha but he only has to fill the blocks to the brim for a finite timespan, to result in forever heavier max size
ascii_field: same problem as a hypothetical monotonically growing mining difficulty.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ascii_field: but the fact of the ratcheting means that $largeint (which enemy can print) can be used to shoot the storage difficulty (let's call block size this!) to the sky
mircea_popescu: if "enemy" holds a significant portion of the last 1% of blocks mined, how is he the enemy.
mircea_popescu: my position being very much like ascii_field's : not clear this is needed and dubious it's a good idea before the two get hanged. but op may disagree ? i dunno.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: imho the algo as written here is disastrously bad
assbot: Logged on 17-08-2015 09:12:53; mircea_popescu: a function that, after each retarget, allows blocks as large as say 1.01x the average actual size of the blocks in the 2k batch for instance.
williamdunne: Sorry, I meant they've been doing it previously
williamdunne: jurov: They've been doing so for a while
ascii_field: next we do the alcubierre stardrive !
ascii_field: then aha.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field as to the later, no reason. as to the former, no idea. i suffer from the disease of all cerebral beings, of enjoying the consideration of abstract problems in no direct relation to their practical utility.
jurov: thus mightily enabling the trade
jurov: nubbins`: i think the derps will try to spam btc to make people switch to xtc,
nubbins`: fair trade if xtc is the future.
nubbins`: [16:24:31] <nubbins`> bounce: the idea is you'd create a 10mb transaction sending out xtc to your buyers, in return they push small tx sending you same amount in btc
nubbins`: ahhh, the lulz.
nubbins`: this is akin to the declaration of independence being written in 18pt comic sans
nubbins`: "we need to make this new subreddit STAT. we literally do not have 3 minutes to make a new header. take the old one and ph0t05h0p it"
punkman: kakobrekla: plz to remove assbot, the people have spoken
punkman: "That the community communication channels, the repositories, and any other likewise bitcoin assets, are public property and owned by the community as a whole, not any one single individual nor a very small group of people. All steps must be taken to allow full access to every individual to these assets and to reduce fully or to the absolute minimum any and all barriers to any and all access of these assets. " heh
nubbins`: it looks like they literally copied the /r/bitcoin header, magic-wand-selected the background, paint-bucketed it blue, tacked on "xt" and saved it as a jpeg
nubbins`: wonder who made the header logo, hearn?
nubbins`: https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hc5zz/the_declaration_of_bitcoins_independence/cu65bfi
ascii_field: danielpbarron: what did you expect it to be? a magical recipe for escaping the cattle corral ?
ascii_field: the vm part anyway
ascii_field: punkman: why go far? the ubiquitous 'RAR' does something quite like this
punkman: http://mattmahoney.net/dc/zpaq.html "Many intermediate versions include compression improvements. This does not break forward compatibility because the decompression code is stored in the archive. The code is written in a sandboxed, virtual machine language called ZPAQL." << reminded me of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=309
shinohai: This is the most entertaining Monday on reddit in some time.
assbot: Logged on 17-08-2015 15:47:07; assbot: Using ambient sound as a two-factor authentication system | Naked Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1gQKrqX )
ascii_field: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-08-2015#1240527 << lulzy rubbish. let's use ANYTHING but the things known to work! using those WOULD BE WRONG
ascii_field: 'That we the people have final say on any and all matters that concern bitcoin the protocol and bitcoin the community.' << mega-l0l
shinohai: The XT constitution LOL >>> https://www.reddit.com/r/bitcoinxt/comments/3hc5zz/the_declaration_of_bitcoins_independence/
thestringpuller: "file history" << then slap git ontop of it and call it day?
trinque: but as ascii_field observed a while back, they do that so you have the opportunity to fuck up before them
assbot: Logged on 01-08-2015 22:45:48; mircea_popescu: because the job where you ask questions you don't know the answer to is in science not in humanities.
trinque: chetty: I've long lamented that they don't just "file your taxes" for you
jurov: i did convert one dude to self-hosted seafile, but otherwise, meh.
assbot: Prof. Dr. Marco Hien — Lehrstuhl für Algebra und Zahlentheorie ... ( http://bit.ly/1KrNOfy )
ascii_field: http://alg.math.uni-augsburg.de/mitarbeiter/mhien << if you recall, http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A627338D751C449EA54C0BA518ABCB2E215D939534F7D149C246EA9EA0D36279 >> is a professor of maths at u of augsburg specializing in number theory. extra lulzy
kakobrekla: anyway, since the switches are only binary i dont actually check for values cause its more work and im lazy
kakobrekla: forget the false
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ascii_field: 'Orway does not condone the use of malware.' << mega-l0l, they ~sell~ crapware and nothing else
mike_c: from what I remember the framerate wasn't awesome, but entirely usable.
shinohai: There is nothing new under the sun, it has likely already been proposed in these hallowed forums.
jurov: but to 2FA.. you'd have to keep reusing the same hookers, i spose
jurov: ^ idea already considered by serenissima the almighty :DDD
assbot: Using ambient sound as a two-factor authentication system | Naked Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1gQKrqX )
shinohai: https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2015/08/17/using-ambient-sound-as-a-two-factor-authentication-system/
punkman: someone should definitely take the idiots 25btc
thestringpuller: also there is some d00d offering a 25 BTC bounty to the first miner to mine an XT block with the version header.
thestringpuller: ascii_field: i thought the whole reason a "debate" even existed is because 90% of reddit's /r/bitcoin is full of socialist who likely own 0.1 btc each to their name and think they are gonna change the world.
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 18:23:26; Pierre_Rochard: my main disagreement is on the economics side, you say “ Limit the number of transactions that can happen on the Bitcoin blockchain, and instead of paying higher fees people will perform their transactions somewhere else.”
punkman: for interested readers, Pierre_Rochard's thread about the limit and fees, with Gavin as special guest: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-01-2015#986252
assbot: Logged on 12-09-2014 16:47:31; asciilifeform: (at least two! of which the artist controls at least 1...)
assbot: Logged on 12-09-2014 16:47:19; asciilifeform: because suddenly, there is (or you think there is) a debate. with 'sides.'
assbot: Logged on 12-09-2014 16:47:05; asciilifeform: once you've been 'taught the controversy' - that is, convincing that there -even is- reasonable debate among informed people, on a particular subject - the lie becomes a kind of half-truth, automagically
punkman: pretty sure we've been discussing this even before the controversy
ascii_field: !s teaching the controversy
ascii_field: the only reason why the block size 'conversation' is even happening at all is that they have 'taught the controversy'
punkman: it worked then with spare cpu cycles, I don't think you can have that again
jurov: they can switch to litecoin, monero, etc.
ascii_field: kinda the plan, i think
ascii_field: again the socialist garbage
ascii_field: nor will the permeativity constant change;
ascii_field: speed of light will not increase just because ten trillion schmucks think they would like it to;
ascii_field: why the fuck NOT 1MB forever?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: Logged on 17-08-2015 09:31:55; mircea_popescu: it'd have to look a lot more like the above than like anything i've seen,
ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-08-2015#1240336 << i'm curious re: why this should ever be necessary; and why one ought to even consider opening this portcullis until long after the siege is lifted and the last gavinist is hanged
fluffypony: the slide is hard to see in its glory, pity
fluffypony: oh wow I actually found the speech
fluffypony: thestringpuller: no
thestringpuller: fluffypony: Gareth, the old bitinstant CTO
mircea_popescu: lol bitcoin on win10 should be the lulz of all time
fluffypony: and instead some random comes to do it, like she's his mother
fluffypony: I know, it was a little out of character, but I was extremely pissed off that the guy didn't have the balls to come talk to me himself
fluffypony: how to hit the JSON RPC API?
mircea_popescu: lol. it is kinda the retard path. prolly come up with some fixes first tho.
fluffypony: I bet they launch an altcoin next
gribble: Seinfeld Scripts - The Muffin Tops: <http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheMuffinTops.htm>; Pizza PoundCake on Pinterest: <https://www.pinterest.com/unicornrescue/>; Seinfeld - J. Peterman reality bus tour - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9WtjFhEGrM>
mircea_popescu: they also want moneyz ? where is it, in nigeria ?
assbot: The Bitcoin Academy | Bitcoin and Blockchain Training in South Africa ... ( http://bit.ly/1TLLm8H )
fluffypony: "Riccardo is the founder and director of fluffypony inc., a company that specialises in *.* "
mircea_popescu: so tell her "listen, i want to hear the speaker to i can mock him as well."
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: well I wanted to hear the speaker so I could mock him on Twitter as well, so I didn't have time for a protracted conversation with the stupid cow
fluffypony: then they tweeted a few hours later about how I wasn't welcome at future Bitcoin Africa conferences because I was disrespectful
fluffypony: so I go "well then you can fuck off too"
fluffypony: so I go "well then he can man up and come and talk to me himself, else he must fuck off"
fluffypony: so then she says "well I think you shouldn't tweet that"
fluffypony: and then she's like "you've been Tweeting out some mean things about Gareth"
fluffypony: I ridiculed one of the presenters because he had a slide on how Bitcoin solves the Byzantine generals problem
fluffypony: she's the one that banned me from attending future Bitcoin Africa conferences
cazalla: this is the chick running the academy https://cryptortrust.com/about/advisory-boards/advisory-board-africa/sonya-kuhnel/
gribble: The operation succeeded.
cazalla: damn, the shit is everywhere this evening.. http://www.iol.co.za/scitech/technology/internet/africa-s-first-bitcoin-academy-1.1901006
Adlai: http://tezos.com/text/language.txt somebody has been working so hard that he missed the memo on steak
cazalla: punkman, i imagine they only discuss bitcoin as the embassy whereas here, it is a little different.. gentleman's club as one article states
cazalla: pretty much, but what is the attraction to creating an embassy, shared space, etc etc?
cazalla: "He had recently landed a job as a bitcoin ATM attendant in the Waves Coffee House at Smithe and Howe streets and he saw a bright future in the currency. He wanted to create a shared space for the bitcoin community. But having to worry about whether he had a home to come back to at the end of every workday was starting to interfere with his business plans." http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/vancouvers-housing-costs-no-pro
mircea_popescu: of course this would also trash the fixed size blocks-powered bitcoinfs
mircea_popescu: anyway, if anyone got a github account, leave a link to this convo on there, curious if sipa/anyone groks wtf's going on.
mircea_popescu: and back in the day you'd get flunked in undergrad sys design for shit like this.
mircea_popescu: but anyway - the fucking magic number should have been in block headers not in a c file.
punkman: oh ok then, I read it wrong
mircea_popescu: a noob saved a word ("who would need 1000000 repeated each block!!!") and in the process made the design much dumber.
mircea_popescu: the MAXIMAL size.
punkman: lemme explain, if we have the size of each block included in headers, that's not the state we need
mircea_popescu: and when you allocate memory, same ? you just count the bytes you used ? AFTER YOU DID ?
punkman: you just count the bytes
punkman: why have a bytecount in the block?
mircea_popescu: who the fuck looks at a list and goes "a it's ok, don't need header referencing the size, why would you."
mircea_popescu: (why the blocks were designed to not contain a summary bytecount of their own variable content i nthe first place is yet another example of the "satoshi was not much of a designer" thing)
mircea_popescu: but anyway, yes, if we're to keep state the only sane way is to put it in the block headers.
mircea_popescu: and pretending otherwise is just that, pretending.
mircea_popescu: irrespective of what "the very talented" "core developers" think, this will not be a simple or easy change. it will require a lot of touching,
mircea_popescu: i imagined the us electoral system will work.
punkman: 2mb is how I always imagined an increase, but yeah I guess that unworkability is becoming apparent these days
mircea_popescu: not until you become the saint of numbers anyway.
mircea_popescu: it'd have to look a lot more like the above than like anything i've seen,
mircea_popescu: be they 8mb or 17.7 or /dev/rand or anything else.
mircea_popescu: but it horribru or not horribru - a) we are currently keeping state, just, as a constant and b) there is no way to make pie-in-the-sky arbitrary values work.
mircea_popescu: you can't allow it to reduce block size, because the noise will make the system unbound and it'll collapse.
mircea_popescu: that's the biggest problem with it, it introduces a state.
mircea_popescu: iirc they are
punkman: depends if these kb are base10
mircea_popescu: (ie, 1mb exactly. because 990 mb blocks fails to allow for an increase by the above proposal)
mircea_popescu: in fact, there have not been full bloicks period
mircea_popescu: there has not yet been as much as a signle day of straight full blocks.
punkman: right now it appears that fees are increasing, but only because of the derps doing "stress tests"
mircea_popescu: if the fee market has not developed by the time the blocks are filled like that, it;s not happening.
mircea_popescu: that's the difference : i have no need for an arbitrary 18% no matter what.
mircea_popescu: actual bitcoin users can actually force the miners, by paying enough to make their transactions not-non-mineable, even if it fills blocks
mircea_popescu: gives everyone some leverage - miners that want to keep blocks smaller can mine empty blocks. miners that mine large blocks have the usual disadvantage due to speed. the thing itself allows very limited growth, in the sense of 1% growth if the previous two weeks were all full blocks.
mircea_popescu: a function that, after each retarget, allows blocks as large as say 1.01x the average actual size of the blocks in the 2k batch for instance.
Adlai has realized from 'notbitcoinxt' that ultimately the only thing that matters is what enters the blockchain. text, including that inside textual protocol fields, is just text.
mircea_popescu: "Attempting to buy time with a fast increase is not wanting to face that reality, and treating the system as something whose scale trumps all other concerns. A long term scalability plan should aim on decreasing the need for trust required in off-chain systems, rather than increasing the need for trust in Bitcoin." etc
mircea_popescu: but the conceptual harness is sound.
mircea_popescu: yeah the actual function's useless as is
punkman: "It implements a series of block size steps, one every ~97 days, between January 2017 and July 2063, each increasing the maximum block size by 4.4%. This allows an overall growth of 17.7% per year. "
mircea_popescu: mostly for "Bitcoin's advantage over other systems does not lie in scalability. Well-designed centralized systems can trivially compete with Bitcoin's on-chain transactions in terms of cost, speed, reliability, convenience, and scale. Its power lies in transparency, lack of need for trust in network peers, miners, and those who influence or control the system. Wanting to increase the scale of the system is in conflict
mircea_popescu: because they're lesser people.
mircea_popescu: wtf "ethical questions" are these ?
assbot: Migrants locked in stadium on Kos for nearly 24 hours | World news | The Guardian ... ( http://bit.ly/1DX9nrJ )
punkman: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/12/thousand-refugees-locked-in-stadium-overnight-kos
punkman: "“Not everything is for everyone and that’s the way it is,” he said, teeth gleaming indifferently. His theories about shoes were tinged, predictably, with a seeming misogyny. They come, he insisted, with a great deal of “sexual energy” – which is perhaps just as well, as the only thing it’s possible to do in a pair of his heels is lie down."
punkman: "A mischievous fellow who counts among his friends the queen of Bhutan and Catherine Deneuve, Louboutin has perfected the art of the glacial smile when faced with awkward ethical questions. What does he make, for instance, of the fact that in India, a market into which he is expanding, there are lots of people who own no shoes at all?"
ShawnLeary: you can become a VIP Donator with a small gift of 50 BTC to theymos
gribble: The operation succeeded.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: You rated user lobbes on 06-Feb-2015, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: #eulora logs bot.
ben_vulpes: how old is theymos?
mircea_popescu: by the time it figures shit out it's screwed alreadt.
mircea_popescu: i guess this is the problem with youth.
assbot: It's time for a break: About the recent mess & temporary new rules : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1TMvHez )
mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3h9cq4/its_time_for_a_break_about_the_recent_mess/ << i suppose theymos' valliant effort to make reddit matter is cute in its own way.
assbot: Adam Back on Twitter:.@twobitidiot someone mentioned hypothetical: if you lost your Bitcoins as a result of Gavin network split - would you hold him accountable? : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1TMuPqj )
assbot: The 25 most exciting bitcoin startups in the world - Business Insider ... ( http://bit.ly/1DYEpyV )
ben_vulpes: http://www.businessinsider.com/25-most-exciting-bitcoin-startups-in-the-world-ethereum-21-coinbase-coindesk-2015-3?op=1 << remember when coindesk was #5 according to business derpsider?
trinque: and the qemu commands is... qemu-system-x86_64 -hda root.img -vnc :0 -redir tcp:2222::22
trinque: or rather, do you know what you kicked on in menuconfig?
trinque: and I'll diff it with the one I produced
ben_vulpes: theymos moderates r/bitcoin?