asciilifeform: imho the interesting detail re 1989 was that ~these~ particular 'settlers' were already descended to approx the amerind stage, and sold ~entirely hollow beads.
mircea_popescu: china was net silver importer by the megatonne, for this exact reason, "what fucking miami, keks"
mircea_popescu: there's a ~reason~ miami "pressures" latin ameritards, but period "london" did not in the slightest impress 1880s chinese.
mircea_popescu: one of the earliest documented cases of miami.
mircea_popescu: so no, while in theory appealing, this theoretical autarky is not at all how things worked in the practice we're discussing. they had unclosed cycles galore, and there had to be a solution, AND they were in no measure to produce the solution.
mircea_popescu: (and this is why closed borders is a very fucktarded policy -- you obviously WANT to let the idiots out. the only problem commies encountered was that if they opened the borders, the idiots'd have ~stayed~. which is already indicative of the breakage.)
asciilifeform: i distinctly recall a thread where mircea_popescu explained 'stupid wants to go and be with other stupid'. i.e. buncha derps in ro considered 'freedom' to be 'go shopping in vienna'
asciilifeform: how do i distinguish this from the pressure of a miami tho
mircea_popescu: this is the true measure of unclosed cycles, you understand ? if your local currency is dropping, it is always dropping under the pressure of unclosed cycles
asciilifeform: aa like the ru pegging lulz
asciilifeform: interesting, btw, detail : stalin, seems, mostly closed eyes to black market. the idjit 'let's actually practice what preach' thing began in earnest with hrusch.
mircea_popescu: yet you can't buy the dollar for 0.00005 btc anywhere. it's the same 0.00025 everywhere.
asciilifeform: i dun think there's a modernistan without massive blackmarket (i.e. comparable in mass to the 'white')
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it doesn't. but it is also very easy to measure unclosed cycles : as they leak, the black market widens.
mircea_popescu: "what is the end product of Qx ?" "well... more of the workforce came late more often, missed more days, and feels should have larger salary and less work to do"
asciilifeform: i suspect the bulk mass of 'worker' is similarly lazy errywhere (possibly excepting jp and other oddities)
mircea_popescu: ye, the ONLY measurably increasing output of running the 1980s state economy was an increase of per-capita laziness, uselessness, and personal sense of entitlement of the "worker"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform we're not discussing that. this was peacetime economy, and the ~only product of its working was more per-capita laziness.
mircea_popescu: either be solvent or stfu.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the world that is is the world that is. one must close all cycles in it, one can't simply go "oh, we'll keep going the insolvent '''right way'''."
asciilifeform: i dunno that, e.g., belomor canal, was also ever 'profitable'. but also suspect that it is not good metric. ( was t34 factory profitable ? what's the ev of a t34? )
mircea_popescu: had they actually been done on fucking time, they might've paid for themselves as the plans planned.
mircea_popescu: and the low skill, low productivity, worthless workforce ain't no fucking joke, either. you can say "ceausescu made wrong call, bet on oil, prices changed, he lost". the THING however is, ceausescu made bet in 66, plans called for plants to be done by 69, they were done by 74.
asciilifeform: that decided it has ~0 use for the little sovok it ate
asciilifeform: per logic of the 'spherical horse' market(tm)(r) mircea_popescu is 100% correct. but the 'market' aint one when there's derps printing money, it's simply a larger sovok
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> yes, romanians thought "theyt're working". they were playing, 9 cases out of 10. << One of the bigger cleaning product consortiums recently pulled production out of Uruguay. Easier to ship packaged retail ready from Mexico than water down and bottle in the labor environment here.
mircea_popescu: gotta start doing ~something~ besides saying "fuckyou" to parents, is the fundamental lesson of all adolescence.
mircea_popescu: there's a time-decay function to it.
asciilifeform: what is worth of being able to say fuckyou to washington , zurich, berlin, put together ?
mircea_popescu: as the workers weren't willing (nor even able) to PAY to play, their very expensive playground got cancelled.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cost to make in "just sell the natgas at bekescsaba, rather than send to azomures"
asciilifeform: just put the whip to some bodies
asciilifeform: they didn't have to cut open that gold mountain, to make it, neh
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what do you want me to say ? "if atomic winter came then 1980s ro industry would be good" ? these if dun work.
mircea_popescu: and so the fuck on.
mircea_popescu: and the list goes on. romania made more phospo-nitrogen fertilizer than the us currently uses -- and it cost to make about twice what anyone'd pay.
asciilifeform: (actual report from old colleague, who went through series of ameri-autos that dutifully expired just as he paid off the credit, and didn't seem to teach him any)
asciilifeform: on one hand yes; on other, 'ford' from 2009 dun run nao ~at all, not 20 not 10.
asciilifeform: i saw depot with pretty ragged looking locomotives in timis. seems like for 'trains nobody would', they still run?
asciilifeform: in fact, genius shoemaker pissed right into the mouth of the 'comcon' sanctions, bought semiconductor fab line straight from ti
mircea_popescu: you're thinking of the survivors. romania had ~9x more industry than you can summon to mind.
mircea_popescu: what is now alro was one of the largest bauxite processing plants in europe. it cost ~over 8k ~~~1980~~~ usd to make a ton of aluminum there, and this at romania's EXTREMELY CHEAP hydro power rates.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 23:20 mircea_popescu: so no "tranzitie" bullshit whatsoever : we're gonna have to cut all the spurious "industry" in name only, and cut all the fucktards who depend of it. and IT WAS DONE. and it was done as hard and fast as it ~could~ be done, witness the whole "miners invading capital" lulz during radu vasile.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-12 16:36 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: eh folx are still waiting for the vid from the pentagon parking lot cams on '9/11'
BingoBoingo: In http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-12#1901502 The chicken video is online https://gfycat.com/understatedsameamericankestrel
mircea_popescu: that, sadly, was unsupportable, correctness be damned. and if you ain't gonna do the right thing, iliescu's way the fuck better a schelling point than herpitty-derp&co.
mircea_popescu: execute, as in, shot in the head. everyone, as in, 2-3mn people.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:56 spyked: diana_coman, I suspect this was mostly a case of "revision is well-received, but don't change anything"; which is why iliescu/fsn had so much support and average derp saw the taranisti as "way too mean" (no idea precisely what "mean" means, that's what I've been told)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902449 << i'll tell you exactly what it means : my preferred course at the time would have been to execute everyone with a https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.newsbucovina.ro%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F12%2Fcarnet-pcr.jpg
mircea_popescu: so yeah, while isarescu was trying to figure out which accreditives to sign in which order on which day, bnr of that winter being the largest cheque kiting entreprise in the entire world, a bunch of morons sitting on upturned beer cases "discussed politics". that nothing comprehensible came of the latter effort's the participants' fault.
mircea_popescu: ault. this is what the mass-romanian is and does, nobody is needed to "do it to him", much like nobody's needed to drag shit into lelea saveta's cunt. she does it, by herself, every time she wipes.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-01 23:04 mircea_popescu: iptomonede, opinii" but even manages to write a piece on the celebrated http://trilema.com/2011/romania-cea-de-basm-partea-i/ item (four years later) without somehow managing to at all EVEN MENTION let alone fucking address the whole reason public funds were even misdirected towards printing that (meanwhile melted down) piece of crap.
mircea_popescu: and incidentally, this continues -- there's "romanian bdsm" dorks today, as fucking if, amusingly omitting to mention that there's exactly one romanian bdsm-er ; and hilarious cvasi-republican posturing and all the rest of it. that they're drowning in hollow halo of buzzwords which nevertheless fails to mask at all the complete sadness underneath is not like the fucking martians' f
mircea_popescu: now, admittedly the average 20yo living in 1990 had no fucking clue of any of the foregoing : not merely because the average 20yo has no fucking clue anywhere and anytime, ustarded 20yos actually go into debt to go to "college" today, even! but also because other than the romanian citizens i personally know, NO FUCKING BODY had ANY FUCKING CLUE about ANYTHING. AT
mircea_popescu: by which i mean, that negotiating with the miners was the absolute worst fucking decision possible. the policy is either correct, in which case it gets defended, or incorrect, in which case it gets corrected. there can't possibly be this "oh, we should x but let's y instead", factual-abdication-without-formal-abdication. in which sense diana_coman has a solid point, "dood should have had his referendum ipso facto in 77, not b
mircea_popescu: ition ro went for, and mostly got. in the large land grab post us collapse, romania got what pieces it could grab, and while it didn't grab as much as say germany, or poland, it grabbed WAY the fuck more than even france, let the ufck alone jokes like spain. and it did better in this land rush than it did in the 60s/70s oil rush we discussed yest.
mircea_popescu: there's exactly nothing wrong with "making breaks for bmw". all bmw consists of is producers of parts, an assembly plant, and a sticker factory. what you ~want~ in that cake is to be one of the parts producers. it is folly to imagine "owning intellectual property" in "the brand" has any fucking value. it is idiocy to try like the argentines, to assemble chinese kits and call it "an industry". the only good position is the pos
mircea_popescu: so yes romania kinda lost its nuclear technology plants ; but romania also now has fine mechanics that actually works, and actually makes money, and unlike bulgaria or fucking austria, let alone jokes like costa rica or argentina, has a very well working, agile and effectual industrial base. narrower than it could have been in a very idealised sense, but way the fuck wider than it'd have been had eg the "agricultural plans" o
mircea_popescu: so no "tranzitie" bullshit whatsoever : we're gonna have to cut all the spurious "industry" in name only, and cut all the fucktards who depend of it. and IT WAS DONE. and it was done as hard and fast as it ~could~ be done, witness the whole "miners invading capital" lulz during radu vasile.
mircea_popescu: ie, the writer dorks aren't the ~only ones~ he was... abstainedly uncritical with. cowardly enough, he also did the same when his skin was in it.
mircea_popescu: are sunteti din pozitia de expati prin multinationale.] actuallty fixed romania's pre-eminent problem in the 90s, one that ceausescu failed to even dare address -- witness how there's no discussion of "you fucks are the worst miners that ever went down a shaft" in response to the "jos cu burghezia rosie" bullshit he had to confront in valea jiului cca 77.
mircea_popescu: this ~was~ fixed, in point of fact, and while http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-08#1893885 items are readily derrided as a sort of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=165#selection-245.330-245.440 nevertheless it is the case that the [http://trilema.com/2011/romanul-si-marea/#selection-141.0-169.68][Doua sute de servitori imbracati frumos, ca servitorii de casa nobila, in livrea albastra cu cravata va conduc la ora actuala ca pe vitele c
mircea_popescu: the supporting in 3 was not merely food -- all these idle useless fucktarded dorks expected to eg heat tghemselves in winter for free with the abundant waste heat resulting from 2. and to steal off the production like. and to generally not work and etc. with the possible exception of bulgaria, romania had the worst workforce of anywhere in europe, at moment 1990.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:37 spyked: from discussions with ppl who were in their 20s-30s at the time, my understanding is that most folks had no idea what to expect from "new regime". they were being fed with "transition phase" and other similar buzzwords
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902443 << actually, it was quite fucking obvious : 1. the country has a large industrial base ; 2. that is only useful to turn a dollar's worth of energy into about 20 cents worth of vandable product ; 3. while at the time supporting a population that was 4. shockingly unskilled labour.
mircea_popescu: anyway -- iliescu wasn't even particularly good, according to anyone involved. he was however the only one who wasn't shockingly fucked in the head. but i mean, SHOCKINGLY.
mircea_popescu: (dood is this obscure ro embassy in uk clerk, who stayed behind in the 40s and married some local woman, worked as a bank clerk for 30 years while contributing weekly pieces to whatever anti-ro-govt efforts the brits were lukewarmly pursuing at the time. he has exactly all the qualifications to run the country as that guaido derp, or poroshenko or [http://trilema.com/2015/views-from-a-shithole-or-periplus-through-stupidity/][
mod6: Going to also be adding in nickserv/chanserv, some other services. Will announce when it's back up for testing. Cheers.
mod6: I'm going to be rebuilding the new irc server tonight to include NICKLENs of 24 chars (fleabag has a max of 16, trinque also checked, an no current regiesterd nick in deedbot is >24), TOPICLEN of 390 chars (for uberlong topics/urls etc), and USERREGLENs of also 24.
mircea_popescu: this is amply illustrated in the recent derpage re m i quintus. because ~he died very old~ everyone was falling over themselves to praise. but the dood was a more shameful stain on pnl than eg viorel catarama.
mircea_popescu: ie, there's more substance in the "n-ati mincat salam cu soia" rejection than in the "oh, i wear a bowtie and we're camping in piata universitatii" offer.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:36 diana_coman: presumably there again, there was one chance and it was rejected because ratiu hadn't eaten salam cu soia; but that's what if, no idea if again iliescu was presumably "the best available"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902442 << it does not seem to me ion ratiu & co (coposu, a buncha other fossils) had any fucking clue as to anything whatsoever. in a cool evaluation, actually worse than the "descurcati". ironically enough, the objection as voiced is A LOT more substantial than the same group of dorks aforementioned, pompously pretending themselves "the intellectual elite" and whatnot, wanted to give credit
mircea_popescu: the hole people continue to give mp-wp a bad name i see.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 15:22 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902438 << just like the other idiots. consider : if usg dissolved itself in 2001 instead of pretending to a "war" of imagination, people would have ~regretted~ it. but as it stubbornly carried on for another 20 years, it's just as heavily hated at the top as conceivable, and in another decade they'll be shot in the street retributively, for having been part of it at all.
asciilifeform: ( afaik to this day, mentioning communists in anyffin but the same light as a christian mentions satan, in south kr , is good for coupla yrs in the clink )
asciilifeform: incidentally re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901981 , another good example -- south kr. industrialized entirely 'not communistically' but via same exact method.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:31 spyked: re the above, nato reich did not advertise that part in their brochures. I suppose the ones who previously waited "sa vina americanii" were very happy in 1990 because "can nao eat hot dog and hamburgers" (mcd wasn't even the first of its kind in ro)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902437 << in 1941 su there was a mass of very similar morons who expected to 'drink bavarian' , chix lined up for barber shops to get fashionable hair to show to germans, etc. imho people who actually expect that getting conquered results in mass handout of candy and beer are tards. history offers no example of this kinda thing, and plenty -- of the obv. opposite, the 1 where no candy but instead ht
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 15:09 mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, this thing runs right into the institution of the harem (guess what alfie -- institution that DIDNT have all individuals leave!) because master's opting for idiocy is ~required~ on occasion. you can very much fail through being too reliably thinking, counterintuitively enough. or perhaps not so counterintuitively.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902490 << this is the standard 'game-theoretical strength requires a working rng' neh.
a111: Logged on 2014-03-21 17:44 asciilifeform: a videoclip of a fairy tale coming true... ...they [americans] also wish to drive around in jeeps, accompanied by squadrons of hotties in berets with kalashnikovs - but are impotent from birth. Envy, taken with an understanding of one's own powerless... easily transforms into hatred. The leaders of the sanitarium are easier for the 'patient' to understand, closer. He sees their permissible pecadillos, and is pl
a111: Logged on 2014-03-21 17:31 asciilifeform: 'Frightened of its own cannibalism during the First, and, moreover, the Second world wars. 'civilized' mankind dashed from the 'hard' to the 'soft' mode of violence. (The deciding factors: 1. the restraining influence of atomic weapons and 2. the advent of new technologies of production, which made possible an overfeeding of the masses.) If the essence of 'hard' violence consists in the physical suppression of
a111: Logged on 2014-06-15 02:28 asciilifeform: 'the Western blok... preferred to view the Eastern European nations as victims of Soviet aggression, ignoring the simple and manly fact (that would have been instantly understood by a Roman) that Soviet legions, without anyone's help, took possession of Eastern Europe via force of arms, answering aggression with aggression. And the Roman would an absurdity - he could not comprehend, in the name of what so-called
asciilifeform looks, as does erry coupla yrs, 'does exist in translation?' -- finds, unsurprisingly, does not. at least not on the searchable net.
mircea_popescu: i never read it, but the summary makes sense.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 14:14 mircea_popescu: the proofs for this are many and plurious, but consider the simple fact that there's no censorship or repression of ideas in roosevelt's socialism.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902463 << limonov had entire b00k on subj, with slightly different twist ( tldr : the 'free world' built 'disciplinary sanitarium' (his term) where ideas-dun-matter-even-if-you-somehow-come-across-one cuz they all get http://trilema.com/2015/on-how-the-factored-4096-rsa-keys-story-was-handled-and-what-it-means-to-you/ )
mircea_popescu: IF you dare separate these two, just as soon as something happens you're up sheet crick.
mircea_popescu: anyway, kinda why the insistence on "republic is political -- you can't just do tech thing" etc. and why dual court-and-manor function of lord. and so on.
mircea_popescu: i couldn't argue well that it ~wasn't~ the same attempt.
asciilifeform: it was quite similar thing. he was not prepared for what came out of the woodwork.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, consider hrusch's brief 'thaw' where for short time 'anyffin goes' and then suddenly 'stfu'
mircea_popescu: meanwhile every organized system, no matter how organized as long as it provides for the economic & cultural #1 and #2 functions discussed, is going to be afraid of marauding idiocy. cuz that's what "barbarian" means, even.
mircea_popescu: which yes, is the deep point of http://trilema.com/2017/in-scams-today-disk-less-terminal-sa-dba-laesquinadelamazmorra/#footnote_3_72501 ; and the reason that keeps getting linked -- that YES the only correct response to integration is moving over, and there's a time to do it well and then it'll just be more and more painful once that window closes. but NOTICING...
mircea_popescu: yes, obviously it pays to be the top node, ie, to integrate everyone else's systems. hence all the "empire loses because we integrate it, can't even represent us" etc. nevertheless... this is fine and dandy until it isn't. and yes it'd be great if one had the fucking sense to NOTICE, but notice how eg cat-v.org morons FAILED to notice it's time to quit derping and start worshipping.
mircea_popescu: what can you do ? in any possible systematic representation of the world you will have some criteria for "broken representations". this isn't avoidable, and "so just don't systematically, then" is no kind of answer.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-18 18:57 mircea_popescu: which i stand behind, ftr ; and it is also what informs the "if they had any sense -- they'd be here" stance. the fact that rando can't cut through fetlife to find the meat / can't cut through internet to find trilema / can't cut through femstate to find bitcoin / can't cut through pantsuitism to find republic etc specifically means that rando is dull, ie, not smart.
a111: Logged on 2014-08-01 03:17 mircea_popescu: then various twerps derp about "upholding contracts" in mises.org, and when i call them too smart by half they nervously BUT ANONYMOUSLY address it
mircea_popescu: diana_coman yet if you ask them, they were afraid not of thinking people in general -- but of the exact thing we [or whatever, i guess in limine just i] are affraid also : http://btcbase.org/log/2014-08-01#780595
diana_coman: well, if afraid of thinking people and then people got to think "just enough" then nowhere to turn when needing to talk to someone, inevitably
mircea_popescu: how do you break through the howl of idiocy ? i scream at the girls, and put them on their knees and whip them, and it works, kinda.
diana_coman: "talking to the pigs" ; yes?
mircea_popescu: part and parcel of the problem is that ~the very basis and fundament~ of a "representative system" is that THERE IS NO ONE THERE TO TALK TO. all the fucktarded jwzs long opted out, WHO you gonna explain what to and HOW ? in what terms ? in what words ?
mircea_popescu: it was there though, both the conscience of the problem and the awarness of the right solution. just didn't manage to burble clean all the way through.
mircea_popescu: but see how hard it is to get the words right ? he held referendum over "paying debt", and "everyone voted. twice."
mircea_popescu: he ~even had the right idea~, held fuycking referendum!
mircea_popescu: but yes, ceausescu coming up on live tv and explaining that "look, you dweebs : we tried to imperialism so and so, this is what we did and why we did it, this is what happened, now we're fucked. what do you wanna do now ? figure it the fuck out." would have worked well.
diana_coman: I suspect it's simply because most people don't actually have a "something else" ; hence shooting is at the end correct too since it's the only real quite.
mircea_popescu: what is so wrong with saying "these people hate us, because we suck, how about we try something else instead of sucking even harder ???"
mircea_popescu: much like every single hostile divorce, too. people just don't know when to quit, is the overwhelming property of people.
mircea_popescu: much like had ro communism responded to czech invasion by free elections, ceausescu would be the #1 romanian saint, with more churches dedicated than mary & joseph combined. and much like had the byzantines and much like etcetera.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:32 diana_coman: further digesting the conclusion such as it is, it seems to me that the issue might be that it kept pretending it was working way beyond the point were it had clearly and obviously failed; and given the timings, this does quite rest entirely with ceausescu as far as I can tell - he couldn't let fail faster what had failed already, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902038
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902438 << just like the other idiots. consider : if usg dissolved itself in 2001 instead of pretending to a "war" of imagination, people would have ~regretted~ it. but as it stubbornly carried on for another 20 years, it's just as heavily hated at the top as conceivable, and in another decade they'll be shot in the street retributively, for having been part of it at all.
mircea_popescu: might as well discuss the ill effects of coconut flavoured frozen yogurt upon one's metabolism, and how much weight we're losing by eating naught but vanilla flavoured frozen yogurt (made at the same plant by the same company out of exactly the same ingredients -- all the way to the flavouring, it's still processed wood shavings.)
mircea_popescu: but, to add the one important bit : discussing communism is imo a red herring, and ESPECIALLY so if part of the other-socialism's sepia ink, "oh, how bad warsaw pact socialism was little girl, aren't you glad you live in best possible socialism that's not like that at all [in any parts you're li
mircea_popescu: which pretty much summarizes 50 years' worth of "scholarship" on the topic of comparative theory of socialism, carried both in warsaw and roosevelt lands like it was going out of style.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 07:40 diana_coman: it's still back to the measuring by the bottom part as far as I can see.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902434 << the fundamental problem with measuring anything is that either you pick good measurements (in which case -- you want good samples, in which case -- bottom always wins) or else you pick good results (in which case, discussion can continue endlessly as to ~what it is they mean~. there's no clear meaning to results, howsoever good they may be, absent a good measurement).
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, this thing runs right into the institution of the harem (guess what alfie -- institution that DIDNT have all individuals leave!) because master's opting for idiocy is ~required~ on occasion. you can very much fail through being too reliably thinking, counterintuitively enough. or perhaps not so counterintuitively.
mircea_popescu: (though adlai is commonly used here as the poster child for a perhaps spreading novel disease, where they manage to apparently convince themselves they do like, somehow.)
mircea_popescu: it's a complex problem, though. the naive : "the difference between idiots and thinkers is that thinkers may opt to idiocy, but idiots may not opt to thinking", generally offered in disputes around "copyright" and other packaging of the grander theme of "ownership of ideal objects", nevertheless runs into the problem that thinkers DO NOT LIKE opting for idiocy.
mircea_popescu: mental contortions, "what sort of people are these!!!" and so on.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman hey, i was fortunate! two generations working hard at the "think just enough --- NOT MORE!!!" so as to make it into "red bourgeoisie" (to use the polish term), which yeah i'd have totally fucked up when it came to be my turn except the regime fell before me like one of those magic cases of lion dieing of apoplexy just as five year old boy lifts his wooden sword at it. so now i can be distasted at their impossible
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well, it IS preferable to the alternative. certainly not swell, no, but who the hell can carry a conversation on communism in terms of swellness.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 09:58 spyked: specifically re "the wrong kind of bits on your hdd", I'm sure e.g. microshit had no problem with it, piracy is principally how windows got spread in eastern europe
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902451 << gates himself was quite explicit re this point : 'hooke'm 1st, then make'em pay'
asciilifeform: ameri-sovok gives to the plebes slightly better panem et circenses , 'while supplies last'
asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw i see 0 diff b/w sovok 'top' and goldmansachs top , in re 'how much think' or any other interesting aspect
diana_coman: I find both of them equally horrid
diana_coman: asciilifeform, eh, cheaper in the sense that in communism you don't even have what to drink or what; because otherwise plenty of that in there too
asciilifeform: diana_coman: the reich where 'killed for being thinking people' is ~right here~. simply they dun do it with gulag, they do it much cheaper, by driving'em to drink
a111: Logged on 2019-03-10 17:52 asciilifeform: so it will have to have the mmap routine.
asciilifeform: ( the pill is in the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-10#1901193 thrd. but there's a gnat bug in the way )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: upstack to the keccak -- 8x moar compact keccak is Right Thing, but still won't keep you from demolishing the stack if yer hashing GBs
diana_coman: or the wrong sort of thinking (tm)
diana_coman: ftr I can easily get behind the observation that the difference of opinion here might simply stem from the fact that I wasn't at a the top in communism - no, I wasn't; and I wouldn't have made it to any top either precisely because of too much thinking.
diana_coman: thing is the "afraid of thinking people" directly translates into "thinking people get killed for *being thinking people*" and if you and asciilifeform say that that's swell and preferable to the alternative then ok; the way I see it, it's a recipe for disaster; which gets round back precisely to the "talking to the pigs" since there isn't anyone left
mircea_popescu: i much prefer the tyrant who's afraid of thinking people to the tyrant who isn't, for the exactly obvious fucking reason.
mircea_popescu: why not ? ~obviously~ because thinking people ~can not even form useful ideas~ there. much like there's no jaywalking fines for the qadriplegic, and no blinding lights for they already blind.
mircea_popescu: the proofs for this are many and plurious, but consider the simple fact that there's no censorship or repression of ideas in roosevelt's socialism.
mircea_popescu: , i very much prefer the former ; asciilifeform is expressing very similar preference for very similar reasons.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 07:34 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902276 -> kind of weird in the light of the very real and directly experienced http://trilema.com/2014/the-problem-of-ideal-social-systems-reprint/
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902430 << well, "weird". they're both ideal social systems, they both have the same problems. they have it in different degrees, or rather, differently distributed. warsaw pact socialism was an ideal system closest to realism at the top and most idealized at the bottom. roosveltian socialism is an ideal system closest to realism at the bottom, and most idealized at the top. as i'm at the top
mircea_popescu: ~the end~
mircea_popescu: as it's unclear from the logs whether phf actually has done this and not published it yet or not done it at all, diana_coman will release a third keccak, that should resolve both the above problem and the "everything is 8x because NIST idiots" thing blowing up vdiff's stack, hopefully later this week.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-02 18:57 mircea_popescu: what's hilarious is the ever-present http://trilema.com/2017/global-warming-on-triton/#selection-154.0-157.103 whereby they'll imaginarily seat themselves in my seat and start spewing http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809349 slash assorted nonsense about "homebrew crypto" lalala.
mircea_popescu: making sure this latter case never happens requires a little bit of needlework. the original implementations tried to keep close to the original spec, for basically naive and unexamined http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-02#1883944 reasons. as it turns out, this was the wrong cut.
mircea_popescu: the problem is this : as keccak is ineptly specced (by Bertoni & all), it uses amixedly both lsb and msb conventions, meaning that a bitstream of uneven octetness like "10110" can ~in principle~ end up padded into either the harmless "00010110" or the potentially harmful "10110000".
a111: Logged on 2019-03-10 19:56 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-10#1901200 << that is not at all the problem. i can read the file just fine, but as i do i feed chunks of it to keccak. keccak doesn't take char buffers, it wants "bitstream" i.e. arrays of bits, which means whatever char
mircea_popescu: so in re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-10#1901233 : we finally got to the bottom of the matter, after no little amount of reading and headscratching (esp on my part). the problem isn't one of calling convention (as i had erroneously imagined originally, mostly on the basis of "keccak doesn't take / wants" verbiage).
spyked: specifically re "the wrong kind of bits on your hdd", I'm sure e.g. microshit had no problem with it, piracy is principally how windows got spread in eastern europe
spyked: diana_coman, I suspect this was mostly a case of "revision is well-received, but don't change anything"; which is why iliescu/fsn had so much support and average derp saw the taranisti as "way too mean" (no idea precisely what "mean" means, that's what I've been told)
diana_coman: in this sense ceausescu was made the scapegoat, yes; i.e. "shooting him sorted out all the troubles, nao everything will be great"
diana_coman: sure, folks had no idea but that's the given at any time really
diana_coman: eh, the older ones saw it clearly though because they had more experience with "schimbarea domnilor bucuria nebunilor"
spyked: from discussions with ppl who were in their 20s-30s at the time, my understanding is that most folks had no idea what to expect from "new regime". they were being fed with "transition phase" and other similar buzzwords
diana_coman: presumably there again, there was one chance and it was rejected because ratiu hadn't eaten salam cu soia; but that's what if, no idea if again iliescu was presumably "the best available"
diana_coman: re 1990 I recall euphoria followed by a very cool shower on seeing same old faces (fsn) ; and then the 90s were the time of a big wave of running for canada iirc
diana_coman: spyked, those who waited sa vina americanii were tired of waiting and died, in many cases rather precisely and explicitly so "tired of all this shit, had enough."
diana_coman: further digesting the conclusion such as it is, it seems to me that the issue might be that it kept pretending it was working way beyond the point were it had clearly and obviously failed; and given the timings, this does quite rest entirely with ceausescu as far as I can tell - he couldn't let fail faster what had failed already, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902038
spyked: re the above, nato reich did not advertise that part in their brochures. I suppose the ones who previously waited "sa vina americanii" were very happy in 1990 because "can nao eat hot dog and hamburgers" (mcd wasn't even the first of its kind in ro)
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 13:19 asciilifeform: spyked: seems like the joke is on the folx who shot the shoemaker , who ~maybe~-sent police if he thought you had particular kind of bits on paper , and then spread legs for nato reich, who send police if they think you have ~another~ kind of bits, on yer hdd..
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1901715 <-- this spawned a mega-thread that I'm still digesting, ftr. will make for great re-read over the weekend, and re-re-read later on
diana_coman: but anyway, to wind up the thread, the idea seems to be that "yes, it inevitably sucked and moreover it failed on both directions http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902282 but nevertheless it was the best thing available at the time; and ftr having studied at polytechnica university may perhaps (no idea) be better than mit at that time (not now, then, hence no idea) but it wasn't much study, no.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:57 mircea_popescu: even though economy had ~died, the 70s east cultural clock still synchronized a lot closer to reality than the 70s west cultural clock.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902276 -> kind of weird in the light of the very real and directly experienced http://trilema.com/2014/the-problem-of-ideal-social-systems-reprint/
a111: Logged on 2019-03-14 01:55 mircea_popescu: diana_coman explain http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-11#1901356 to me. so there's http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/15/eucrypt-chapter-10-oaep-with-keccak-a-la-tmsr/#selection-37.1-37.47 ; now why isn't it usable for v ? i'm missing something here.
BingoBoingo: I dunno what the US substitute costs in USD atm, but...
asciilifeform: in the linked piece, pic of some (presumably nao old) d00d when young, and 'his tuition was 400'. takes all of 5sec to think out why his 400 and herr redditard's is 40000
BingoBoingo: Sure they will all find a way to get captured
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: so mother gets a 'yer rent was... you have 2 reddit sons ? guess what, nao x + 2000'
BingoBoingo: What rent? They live in multgenerational households, Latin style
asciilifeform: trinque: ok modify then, 'from nao on 1700'
trinque: afaik the derp's talking about UBI, not a one-shot payment
asciilifeform: ( helps that they're entirely innocent of reading, sovok may as well have happened on mars as they're concerned , i suspect )
asciilifeform: apparently these folx want to try out ye olde sovok 'voucher' experience on own skin
asciilifeform: trinque: a month or 2 of it, neh, then wat
mod6: forwarn: just noticed that the nick maxlen is 9. I'll have to recompile, probably tomorrow.
trinque: neato, I'm there
mod6: Cool: 02:43 -!- Welcome to the TMSR Internet Relay Chat Network mod6
a111: Logged on 2019-03-11 10:01 diana_coman: mircea_popescu, in short, the keccak spec in its current form really since it considers input at bit-level and then goes on to mess about with some assumptions at bit-level and some at octet-level and making a lot of confusion without any good reason e.g. http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/08/eucrypt-chapter-9-byte-order-and-bit-disorder-in-keccak/#selection-55.383-63.563 ; one needs to disentangle that and put it in octet-only shape, octet stre
mircea_popescu: diana_coman explain http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-11#1901356 to me. so there's http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/15/eucrypt-chapter-10-oaep-with-keccak-a-la-tmsr/#selection-37.1-37.47 ; now why isn't it usable for v ? i'm missing something here.
mircea_popescu: in other news, these diana_coman compilation notes are just sad. wtf is wrong with people, "portable" and "support" seem to only support fucking nonsense, and quite selectively at that.
asciilifeform: in other noose,
feedbot: http://bingology.net/2019/03/14/more-future-sight-in-the-southern-cone/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- More Future Sight In The Southern Cone
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ( mircea_popescu , observe, does not have to buy bulldozer. not even in argentina are people fucked enuff in the head to ask MOAR for lease of bulldozer, genset, etc than to BUY ) << And the caterpillar store here neither sells nor rents earthmoving equipment, instead sells girls outdoor fashions
asciilifeform: meanwhile in wikitardism : https://archive.is/spATf << behold , the diagrams all labeled in ru
asciilifeform: they raised the boat btw , and found the ics. i have some of them ( well, not them, but same type ) here. pretty interesting item, moar like ultra-miniaturized smt pcb than what modern folx think of as 'ic'
a111: Logged on 2018-12-01 20:39 asciilifeform: ( who even into '70s persisted in a belief that there's 'amazing su tech' worth fishing out of e.g. sunken su sub , with howard hughes' mega-boat )
asciilifeform: the punchline is that in 1968 sovok was ~slightly ahead~ in ic.
mircea_popescu: where the good stuff is.
asciilifeform: it aint there, to be bought.
asciilifeform: ( consider, sovok faced much simpler problem, when ~it~ resorted to fab -- that amerireich ~wouldn't sell'em~ the goodstuff. today, can't even ~buy~ the goodstuff if yer sultan of brunei )
mircea_popescu: whether in city or behind autofiring turret line, still open q.
asciilifeform: luckily we have mircea_popescu to give clue re in what order to bucket water from the flooded compartments
asciilifeform: no shortage of these
mircea_popescu: there's a ready stream of distractions available to distract thre willing from the much plainer and closer to nose fact that we'll go to bottom of the sea if we don't, eg, manage to get pizarro going properly. etc.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:32 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902010 << fucking precisely. watching #trilema from a distance, with imbecile "skepticism" is not a free option. should it fail, there goes computing, and generally speaking this is the one chance this century.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902255 << i find it increasingly harder to avoid the thought that computing is going down to bottom of the sea unless and until we fab
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:28 mircea_popescu: eg, s.nsa is more of a factory, in objective terms, than tractorul brasov ever was or could have been. it's what it is, these days "factory" is complex item.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902248 << sadly must point out , that the places where the active components made, dwarf any sovok tractor plant
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:59 diana_coman: quite; there was a bit of an anger moment when I realised that in school they never even *mentioned* those writings of Caragiale, let alone study them
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:27 mircea_popescu: or a hruscheba, or w/e the fuck they call it. makes entirely no difference, for the vast majority of the population of romania at the time had never lived in paved dwellings.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902140 << the crowd of very similar 'pippidi' bashing sovok, always makes sure to compare hruscheba to manhattan penthouse, and not to the dirt floor hut 90% of ru lived in pre-sovok
asciilifeform: nao, it ~is~ possible that i'ma rube. and somewhere there's a seekrit base of not-retarded people.
asciilifeform: recall : the xray best-quote of 5 firms was : 2700 orcdubloons PER SHOT
asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu , observe, does not have to buy bulldozer. not even in argentina are people fucked enuff in the head to ask MOAR for lease of bulldozer, genset, etc than to BUY )
asciilifeform: and not (wtf!) have to buy the gear.
asciilifeform: in sane planet, i could walk into a shop and have motherfucking pcb xrayed for fivebux.
asciilifeform: rright. but gotta point out, 'let'em make the basics, we'll make mpexes and fermat's theorems' dunwork if taken entirely literally.
asciilifeform: that iirc was the ameritards' notion also, 'let the untermenschen make tractors, we'll make nasdaq' neh
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:41 asciilifeform: i wonder whether usg even bothers to ask ro 'democratic' apparatus when it feels like moving the 'aegis' batteries from place to place
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902058 << well, they'd have to get new land grants.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 23:27 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902001 << the problematic things here are miniaturization and technologization. there's relatively little need or use for the sort of "factory" as displayed in 1950s italian films. and besides, india can have those.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902246 << ~100% of the manhole covers on my street, have a 'made in india' text. 'leave it to india' worx a++ until india decides that erry fuckwad 'deserves' own country house and sinecure and etc. and soon enuff you have a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-14#1902304
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:27 asciilifeform: as for the old shoemaker, admittedly i never wore a crown, but afaik folx who wear crowns do not have the option of saying 'we lost options'. sorta like the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-31#1663960 thing.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:29 PeterL: trinque: so I am running the cuntoo build script, it seems to have stopped doing anything, the end of the build log http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/whbcf/?raw=true , not sure what to do next here?
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902047 << that's the kernel's own config process, and the "aborted" makes me think you pressed ctrl-c
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the diff b/w 'then and nao' is that 'the west'(tm)(r) dun have a miami to decamp to. hence 'cream' stews in own juices, and no genuflections/'apologies'
mircea_popescu: exact same case of fucktarded "washington press reps dinner" pantsuit meeting ro head, being laughed at. but in the former case gorby was still answering for it ; whereas in the latter i have yet to see the apologetics for ~the failure~.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902039 << this was widely admired, whole "third way" 80s wank. i find the proposition dubious, in the sense that it strictly depends on the yugo ~people~ being a certain kind. just the right mix of crazy and dedicated. worked out terribly in 94 too.
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 21:21 asciilifeform: going upstack to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902021 , oddly enuff per my reading ro ~was~ sovereign during post-stalin sovok. i.e. routinely pissed right in the mouth of e.g. hrusch, and got away scot-free
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902034 << they were a sought ally at the time, pretty much fucked the caer idea. difference now is they ~asked~ to be in eu.
asciilifeform: afaik that's the 'standard model' of the brit empire -- drained batteries of india, americas, etc, then ate own arse
mircea_popescu: considering the cost of the deception, and the ultimately negligible actual results...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only because they communitardized in colonies first.
asciilifeform: contention was, they industrialized before communitardized
asciilifeform: sure is. but is 100+ y after the mills afaik
asciilifeform: gladstone ~century after the 'enclosures' etc, neh
mircea_popescu: ie, "land is no longer this thing the noble owns as his thing to own. land is now a sort of community chest, that the state owns, and maybe noble continues as its steward a while"
mircea_popescu: "We mean to value all the land in the kingdom Now, what is going to happen in the future? In future those landlords will have to contribute to the taxation of the country on the basis of the real value - only one halfpenny in the pound!"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-13#1902033 << it is altogether dubious how "without communism". seems they got the worst parts of it, except for (notably) the name. but otherwise, consider ye recent gladstone discussion.
asciilifeform goes to eat whole thing rather than LL(1) parsing..
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:46 mircea_popescu: incidentally alf, ludwig 2 of bavaria is a fine example re this wot. one day decided to ditch his cabinet -- the cabinet decided it'd better ditch him first!!!
a111: Logged on 2019-03-13 22:44 mircea_popescu: (i also fail to hear these "cultured" fucktards explain how ~exactly the same~ was said of what now makes the glory of austria, that insane dood's palaces)
a111: Logged on 2018-05-22 05:18 mircea_popescu: long story short, soviet kids integrated into youth culture faster than soviet state integrated "soviet world" ; the result was the failure of the soviet state.