asciilifeform: 'There are two main components to Baltimore’s “mobility” campaign, which aims to relocate public housing residents to better neighborhoods. Nearly 3,100 participating families, headed almost entirely by single black mothers, have relocated with special subsidies that are designed for high suburban rents; about 1,300 other families will join them over the next three years. Nearly 50 families, including Hill’s, have move
asciilifeform: http://www.amren.com/news/2015/12/housing-policies-still-pin-poor-in-baltimore-but-some-escape-to-suburbs << lulzy, linked from somewhere in there
BingoBoingo: Inventor versus crackpot is all about what percent of scribblings find the public
asciilifeform: somehow i can't picture him enjoying the new federalized police any more than the old local.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-02-2016#1416208 << i have no idea whether lafond intentionally plays propagandist for the new gendarmerie. but there it is.
assbot: Porn Industry Uses Airbnb, Rental Houses for Filming | NBC Southern California ... ( http://bit.ly/1RtMj6C )
BingoBoingo: I mean what the fuck else do you call someone who "bugs out" with a bag full of stuff as their primary preparation.
BingoBoingo: trinque: No, different thing. Bug-out bag is what future refugees pack for when Syria moves to them.
mircea_popescu: be they rogue persons or rogue states.
mircea_popescu: ie, the bag of valuable traveling merchants carry on their person, of peculiar interest to rogues
mircea_popescu: meanwhile a gobag would be, i presume, on the basis of coverage of this shaun bridges proud representative of the usg in all its glory, the thing he was going to run off with
asciilifeform: but not a bag thereof ? hm.
mircea_popescu: anyway, lulzy at the too-smart-by-half usg. OH WE CAPTURED GOBAG!!!11
assbot: Logged on 26-02-2016 19:10:20; asciilifeform: why would a pool even be ddosable. i thought they all used usgflare or whatnot.
assbot: Logged on 26-02-2016 17:05:40; PeterL: so if people in the Assbot L1 are the peers, what do we call those of us in the Assbot L2?
trinque goes to sell children encryption on the dark webs
ben_vulpes: we must decrypt the children
ben_vulpes: well think of the children trinque
trinque: I've seen various polls of the pasture reporting majority approval of the FBI's "side" of this.
trinque: thus the fact that usg can compel any company to do anything for any reason loses the pretense of secrecy.
asciilifeform: '"The All Writs Act also requires that the govt prove to the Court that the 3rd party's efforts are *required* -- i.e., that the govt has *exhausted* all other means to achieve the desired result. In particular, that *all* departments of the govt have been consulted, and *none* of them has the required capabilities.'
asciilifeform: in other lulz,
asciilifeform: why would a pool even be ddosable. i thought they all used usgflare or whatnot.
asciilifeform: that's where sane folks look for them, at any rate.
phf: i'm cleaning up my clang build script, and somehow i lost the *error-hook* functionality. which makes no sense since it wasn't defined anywhere else, but it was definitely working since there's a bunch of catches in swank that i had to write to make sure things don't crash
asciilifeform: takes the cake.
trinque: "HATE. LET ME TELL YOU HOW MUCH I'VE COME TO HATE YOU SINCE I BEGAN TO LIVE. THERE ARE 387.44 MILLION MILES OF PRINTED CIRCUITS IN WAFER THIN LAYERS THAT FILL MY COMPLEX. IF THE WORD HATE WAS ENGRAVED ON EACH NANOANGSTROM OF THOSE HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF MILES IT WOULD NOT EQUAL ONE ONE-BILLIONTH OF THE HATE I FEEL FOR HUMANS AT THIS MICRO-INSTANT FOR YOU. HATE. HATE."
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: Gov’t plan for forced use of cards runs into the market’s failure to adapt | Business | ekathimerini.com ... ( http://bit.ly/21xoOye )
punkman: in other lulz http://www.ekathimerini.com/206182/article/ekathimerini/business/govt-plan-for-forced-use-of-cards-runs-into-the-markets-failure-to-adapt
phf: the beatings will continue until consensus is established
asciilifeform: '‘Ach, sir, it iss worse when they become refractory! One man, I recall, clung to the bars of hiss cage when we went to take him out. You will scarcely credit, sir, that it took six warders to dislodge him, three pulling at each leg. We reasoned with him. “My dear fellow,” we said, “think of all the pain and trouble you are causing to us!” But no, he would not listen! Ach, he wass very troublesome!’'
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there was no shortage of this crud while i was actively writing for the heathens.
mats: and these bugs can't be patched.
asciilifeform: i still recall the dirigible powered by pain.
mircea_popescu: better than yet another "Congratulations!" thing
asciilifeform: mno not in the nintendo sense
asciilifeform: or read the (pretty cruddy) tale
asciilifeform: famously, ellison demanded that there be no way to win.
mircea_popescu: it instead had the quite plain understanding that civilisation is what happens at the other end of the mentula.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, one of the least civilised things ever contemplated.
mircea_popescu: this... separation, shall we call it, between intelligent man (ie, he who could put the balls to use) and "orc", ie, man with all the parts still attached is INTEGRAL for ...
asciilifeform: if the only kind of violence you can picture is of the farmer, against your own neck - then yes, pig despises.
mircea_popescu: (but yes, capon is the word. the moment you see a kid with a "college education" "despising" violence, you know precisely the fuck's going on. as per alf's discussion of those exploited monkeys, exactly. oxen gathering together to talk out of line about the bull's specific smell.)
mircea_popescu: but all this is besides the point : there's a right way and wrong ways and there's all there is to it.
mircea_popescu: and i'm not for a second proposing i'm better or anything. i have the purely accidental benefit of having spent a lot of my youthful years in this position where people did not fucking dare even open the trap. whereas most smart kids of the sort society tends to castrate for fattening live quite otherwise.
phf: b-a restructured my thinking about how to talk to people, "oh hey ~you~ engaged ~me~, and i'm no longer entertained". to some extent naggum taught a lot of lispers on how to deal with trolls. i saw edi weitz engaged on this subject by random derps at conferences, he nods, politely, once or twice, then walks away. and not just him. but naggum example is very specific to troll engagement, so..
asciilifeform: one day, martian ship lands on mircea_popescu's roof. with difficulty, commander directs him to build a new bzorktl to replace the burned out one.
mircea_popescu: better get good at reading the future.
mircea_popescu: "but teacher, this shouldn't be on the exam, we didn't have it in class!"
mircea_popescu: what the fuck do you think this is, school ?
mircea_popescu: phf i do not say this necessarily to bellitle the man in question. but the matter must be said i nthe plainest terms for posteriority.
phf: i think on top of his fine personal qualities, naggum had an unhealthy obsession, because the system was new and there was no hygiene
asciilifeform: my understanding is that herr n. had money, which was then taken by the crown, the story is in the logz.
mircea_popescu: bum that died in ditch, whether he was or was not playing with cockrtoaches in the few minutes prior, still was and died a bum.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall, eventually he woke up to the futility of entertaining cockroaches.
mircea_popescu: understand that it is never upon the cockroach to explain why man doesn't have house. that's what the duality is all about.
assbot: Logged on 12-08-2014 02:19:55; mircea_popescu: you don't get to say how these debates work. again, because bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so he has a) other men ; b) some good reason he's entertaining cockroaches ?
mircea_popescu: because you have to posit something that can be. negatives can't be - that's what they are, non-being.
asciilifeform: why the fuck not ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's say he... hadn't. what then ?
mircea_popescu: it'd necessarily be and remain unsuccessful, for as long as naggum thinks socialism works, the idiots keep spawning. they come... from him.
mircea_popescu: more importantly - arguing with these people FROM A POSITION OF EQUALITY.
phf: ben_vulpes: http://www.winestockwebdesign.com/Essays/Lisp_Curse.html << i am surprised that this has not yet been linked here << it's a whole genre, with roots in usenet days. "~i~ of course grok lisp, but the masses won't, so i use perl, which is as good, so ya'll should stop whatever you're doing". has the standard reaction of "where the fuck are you idiots coming from". naggum gained his notoriety mostly by arguing with these people,
asciilifeform: (blkindex and the tx retardation)
asciilifeform: that was when i learned of the 2 leak types
asciilifeform: anyway i kinda made this node when did the eatblock experiment.
mircea_popescu: the value of a toy being ~proportional with an exponential of its separability.
mircea_popescu: maybe there is japanesehope for you.
asciilifeform: only then.
mircea_popescu: separate. weren't you talking about separation as the basis of engineering ? what became of that ?
mircea_popescu: who puts tits and cunt on the same organic item ?
mircea_popescu: and preserving tghe history and WHAT THE FUCK ALREADY.
asciilifeform: this would not be a very useful node other than for bootstrapping nodes..?
mircea_popescu: the idea is to not send getx
asciilifeform: l0l the old dayz, when i used to write...
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-02-2016#1415896 << there used to be a regular thing of 'i can't actually refute but hete's 10,001 random words' claptrap re: my www
assbot: Please stop using DNS already, and other considerations on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1XPA1bf )
mircea_popescu: in somewhat other news, http://trilema.com/2016/please-stop-using-dns-already-and-other-considerations/#comment-116653
mircea_popescu: actually the blocksonly thing is not even stupid.
mircea_popescu: worst possible time to withdraw coins is FUCKING IMMEDIATELY. best possible time is you know, two weeks after the thing disappears. gooooooo reddit!
punkman: "When set to blocksonly a node behaves normally but sends and receives no loose transactions; instead it handles only complete blocks. Blocksonly reduced the node's bandwidth usage by 88%."
mircea_popescu: but if i like the way rudolf the winestockdeer thinks and designs websites, i'll surely hire him.
mircea_popescu: mk, i'm done reading. herpitty-derp, "the only way things can be done is by obama and i wonder why those other people havent' come to an alternative to obama that's obama ? I KNOW! because they can't, that's why! it'd be obama. ha-ha!!1"
mircea_popescu: "The reason why this doesn't happen is because of the Lisp Curse. Large numbers of Lisp hackers would have to cooperate with each other. Look more closely: Large numbers of the kind of people who become Lisp hackers would have to cooperate with each other. And they would have to cooperate with each other on a design which was not already a given from the beginning. And there wouldn't be any external discipline, such as
mircea_popescu: is the world ending ?
mircea_popescu: The Lisp Curse does not contradict the maxim of Stanislav Datskovskiy: Employers much prefer that workers be fungible, rather than maximally productive.
mircea_popescu: for that same money, "tmsr will fail because it won't be able to hire enough starbucks barristas and bitcoin will fail because it won't be able to get enough poor africans to spam the blockchain with their irrelevant, unwelcome dust txn"
mircea_popescu: possibly because nobody here really gives much of a shit about attempt #whatever to misrepresent the world in terms of "herd good, individual bad" yadda yadda ?
mircea_popescu: feminists are ~what lawyers used to be in the gilt age
mircea_popescu: these are rich tho
mircea_popescu: and all of them secret agents, astronauts, power rangers and teenage neutered minja turtles or w/e it was.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and i'd see what i and anyone else always and forever sees on college campuses. a buncha dizzy cows of either gender. what!
mircea_popescu: at least not more than the chick claiming lesbianism to escape inept advances is actually gay.
mircea_popescu: it'll be either a chick nobody could conceivably want for any purpose, so basically an old prune before her time,
mircea_popescu: the 20yo ones whats
mircea_popescu: anyway. no sane girl / young woman ever becomes a feminist because she WANTS to become a feminist. they spend more on creams than you spend on hardware.
mircea_popescu: every decrepit ex-insecure derp, still death-fearing, happily drools on the side of hte ouch
mircea_popescu: not like what she resolves to do or not do in one phase has any fucking bearing on the next.
asciilifeform: this is as far as i'm able to follow the thought process before it ceases to make sense.
mircea_popescu: every 40something ex-adolescent slut is EXACTLY her mother.
mircea_popescu: every adolescent slut promises herself she'll be anything but her mother,
asciilifeform: 'make the next batch think' maybe it was, in his head..
mircea_popescu: come on. wtf power, in what world are students anything but the subway chewinggum on people's soles.
mircea_popescu: in what sense it'd be the case is anyone's guess, but whatever.
asciilifeform: anyway the mega-question is, who ought he have shot?
mircea_popescu: so talk show hosts don't like how the ball's being swung ?
mircea_popescu: THAT is your feminists. who the fuck cares, really.
mircea_popescu: occasionally they get going some effort to reform this or that about the sport in question
mircea_popescu: yeah well. meanwhile at reality ranch, all contact sports have this phenomena, where people age out of it. it's natural. but they don't WANT out of it, because they fucking liked it. so they become radio commentators, referees, whatever they can find.
asciilifeform: of the 'недавашка' (how do english that??) flavour.
asciilifeform: it is a boojum in the mind of specific certain people, and it is invariably a reasonably young chick
mircea_popescu: so then what is all this talking of feminists as if one gives a shit ?
asciilifeform: where are you even getting the older thing
asciilifeform: *the
asciilifeform: postal folks tend to shoot he closest approximation they can get to.
mircea_popescu: the very notion, he hates feminists so he shoots adolescents. i suppose if he hated policeman he'd have shot plumbers.
asciilifeform: iirc they were 'diversity admits'.
mircea_popescu: so your idea is that this 20something mousy french guy had a thing for older women, they kept rejecting him
mircea_popescu: but this is absurd. for one thing the twain shall never meet.
asciilifeform: the answer is - being a wolf with nothing but spam can.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck were you doing eating cans!
mircea_popescu: i guess. the problem still stands tho. all these dudes "hurt by feminism" are like the wolf complaining spam cans broke his teeth.
asciilifeform: perhaps compared to the available sample of cattle, sure.
mircea_popescu: actually yeah, the psychs iirc said he was bright.
mircea_popescu: lemme guess, and meninists did the 90s porn revolution ? not digicams ?
asciilifeform: hey nobody said the fella was bright.
asciilifeform: recall the train seats?
asciilifeform: was none too happy with the 'reich for women' thing
mircea_popescu: this is what always gets me about these "i was hurt by feminism" fellows : nigga, say wut ?! the club of bingo ladies who still like to wear skirts bothered you ?! da fuck were you doing at the bingo parlour ?!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seems kinda bizarre. i still don't get what exactly an assortment of old prunes clining on to their delusions of feminity did to him.
asciilifeform: ~the~ canadian p0stal.
mats: tons of fonts bugs in the wild, yes
mircea_popescu: the fonts are prolly also full of holes, and who knows what else even
mircea_popescu: iirc the gfx were still full of holes, today as in 2005.
assbot: Logged on 26-02-2016 01:39:07; mircea_popescu: actually, maybe s.nsa should release some basic code so every script kiddy with enough money to buy an usb can evil maid the shit out of any office space he can get into.
mircea_popescu: that ALSO does not have a lacquered red leather ball gag
mircea_popescu: mthreat lol. that's the sex shop on corrientes 2ksomething
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: At this point I'm set to make money on either a Rubio or Cruz win.
assbot: 8 Cars That Legally Can’t Cross the Brooklyn Bridge - The Drive ... ( http://bit.ly/1WMEGtd )
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: For the record, these are the passenger vehicles which compete with Tesla Model X for Obesity. Many of them hit the same over moneyed chump market. http://www.thedrive.com/article/1720/9-cars-that-legally-cant-cross-the-brooklyn-bridge
mircea_popescu: yeah well fuck them.
asciilifeform: esident throughout, in the vain hopes that such shenanigans may destroy our fledging republic.'
asciilifeform: or, as described in mircea_popescu's mega-article, 'A convicted felon and general low life ran a Ponzi scheme. Various soi-dissant US authorities were notified in private to proceed with prosecution, capture the felon and deliver him to justice, as well as publicly months before the scheme's collapse, but instead chose to delay taking any action whatsoever until a year afterwards, in spite of the felon in question being a US r
asciilifeform: from the pirate case.
asciilifeform: the bfl thing seemed to me like a mega-unsurprise
mircea_popescu: go fucking settle with bfl motherfucking schmucks on a stick already.
mircea_popescu: the principle nevertheless rules supreme. you wanna act like your classic coin / windows system / us government / bla bla got what it takes, fine then. we shall meet in the field and there's no quarter given.\
mircea_popescu: unavoidable. bitches acting like they're independent and shit, time to eat it.
mircea_popescu: "here baby, replace this line with your own address, plug into all the computers you can find"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is one of the reasons why i see malware artists as doing godly work, and wish to help them
mircea_popescu: actually, maybe s.nsa should release some basic code so every script kiddy with enough money to buy an usb can evil maid the shit out of any office space he can get into.
assbot: Logged on 25-02-2016 23:42:27; asciilifeform: the fucktards built their 'consensual reality' where 'computer == winblowz' ?? fine. let computer also == paying some nigerian derp every week to decrypt the disk.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo et al: tesla doesn't need to actually work, in the strict sense, it is specifically targeted at moneyed chumps
assbot: Logged on 25-02-2016 22:58:52; thestringpuller: "[Blockchain] is the technology beneath the bitcoin cryptography, but it is not bitcoin."
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-02-2016#1415632 << they're still running with yesterday's used condoms ?
asciilifeform: there is literally nothing to test against, to compare with, etc.
asciilifeform: the field is as dead as anything one might care to think of.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is precious little anything re: anything.
mircea_popescu: THIS IS GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT!
mircea_popescu: doesn't that mean the batteries will have to power 6x as much car as gasoline ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=26-02-2016#1415667 << it appears to have been the first (and to date, only other in public) system that is immune to chosen-ciphertext crapolade
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo these fucking idiots, by now the car is 90% battery... how to get 5% extra distance ? make it 95% battery. doesn't that mean double the size ? YES IT DOES
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> courtney something << Courtney Love, mother of Francis Bean
BingoBoingo: In other new the Tesla Model X is too obeast to legally traverse the Brooklyn Bridge which has a 3 ton weight limit
mircea_popescu: and what's her face, the trailer trash whore that was sharing needles with the nirvana kid ?
asciilifeform: was ever eternally 'about to write the next great xxxx' according to the lit-mafia of his time
assbot: Logged on 25-02-2016 18:54:07; phf: heh actually some boomer at russian cultural center was once telling me of his adventures, he proudly told me that him and his wife had a friend in russia and it was even! a kgb guy. the implication is that he was so cool, he even got to meet a bonafide kgb, befriend him and that was his best friend. that's your handler, you dumbass.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-02-2016#1415543 << it was very smart, in that their sovereignity was deeply retarded.
assbot: Logged on 25-02-2016 18:40:53; phf: their whole experience of su is through intourist propotainment and politruk control. who's going to let an american nobody in a company of the valuable products of soviet system. it's a needless risk. at best you get invited to some aparatchik family dinner and get to playbelieve "i was even friends with a russian family!"
assbot: Logged on 25-02-2016 18:29:41; asciilifeform: no amount of travel or whatnot can cure a man who experienced western civilization in 1960, and believes that we can bring back the airplanes by cargoculting to what he perceives as the rules of the era.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-02-2016#1415517 << 60 in the us tho. 60 in europe was a pretty miserable affair.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=25-02-2016#1415499 << fellow did it because pope told him to and wouldn't pay otherwise.
mircea_popescu: i'd rather read kitsch, naomi klein's autobiography by naomi klein
mircea_popescu: who the fuck cares what "river macleod" thinks on any topic,
assbot: Logged on 25-02-2016 18:07:26; asciilifeform: anybody has thoughts about the Dolev-Dwork-Naor asymmetric cipher ?
pete_dushenski: there's supposedly a shake down of the odd pawn broker, which can't be more than appropriation of a bicycle for the cop's children, but it's mostly just a list of names of bitches who can't deal with their own problems.
asciilifeform: the fucktards built their 'consensual reality' where 'computer == winblowz' ?? fine. let computer also == paying some nigerian derp every week to decrypt the disk.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://mm0hai.net/blog/2015/07/14/Dont-use-the-keyservers.html << fountain of lulz
mod6: and since i have no clue "what lispers typically do", I'll ask: I usually read files one line at a time and then do things accordingly, is this a typical lisp convention? Or do most just read one word at a time and then do stuff?
mod6: so, with tinyscheme, there is no 'read-line' -- which we sort of talked about; having to write a bunch of our own procedures.
mod6: And so they shant.
thestringpuller: These people are too stupid to be leading armies.
shinohai: yup. Brian Armstrong will be there too.
thestringpuller: "[Blockchain] is the technology beneath the bitcoin cryptography, but it is not bitcoin."
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: "tell us how much you diddled each other so that we may distribute other diddling equitably"
shinohai: did isis make good on their threat to knock twitter offline?
asciilifeform: what makes you think the box will put out 4k ?
pete_dushenski: other way around. computer has no displayport jack. monitor has.
shinohai: https://medium.com/@barmstrong/coinbase-is-not-a-wallet-b5b9293ca0e7#.si7f7492y <<< the therapy must be working.
pete_dushenski: beautiful white children as the majority." He signs off by telling recipients, "Don’t vote for a Cuban. Vote for Donald Trump." "
pete_dushenski: "In Minnesota and Vermont, a white supremacist super PAC called the American National Super PAC has begun circulating a robocall in support of Trump. "The white race is dying out in America and Europe because we are afraid to be called 'racist,' says William Johnson, the leader of the white nationalist American Freedom Party. He goes on to bemoan "gradual genocide against the white race," and how few "schools anymore
pete_dushenski: bwahaha why doesn't money work in usistan ? it works everywhere else ! reserve currency status seems to have broken the currency's use and meaning.
pete_dushenski: as also used to the methods we use in Zimbabwe when we get in these situations, so I said to him: " Come on Sir, what if I give you something? Will that speed up the process?" I'm sure he could tell from from my accent where I'm from so he looked me in the eye, lowered his voice and said to me softly : "Sir, you have just offered me a bribe. We don't do that around here."
pete_dushenski: "Now, in my first week in the states, something got trapped in the earphone jack of my laptop so I went to an Apple store to see if they can fix it. The genius there told me that he would need to first check it in and that I would only be able to come back and pick it up after four working days. I knew there were other computers in line before me and I really didn't think I could survive four days without a laptop an
pete_dushenski: "He said: "Some of the people will be too old or too weak to carry the food to their cars so you will have to carry the food for them". What shocked me was that these people were being given food hampers because they were poor but they drove cars. Some of them had very nice cars too. In Zimbabwe, poor people don't have cars."
asciilifeform: i ran into a few when i went to 'rur' at the czech embassy.
asciilifeform: phf: i think they're mostly old/dead now
phf: oh man, plenty of these people at russian cultural center in DC, can have a little study roster
phf: heh actually some boomer at russian cultural center was once telling me of his adventures, he proudly told me that him and his wife had a friend in russia and it was even! a kgb guy. the implication is that he was so cool, he even got to meet a bonafide kgb, befriend him and that was his best friend. that's your handler, you dumbass.
asciilifeform: (he can't speak the language, so he will only end up in designated zoos, etc.)
asciilifeform: so ru folk traded their sovereignty for jeans.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu likes to remember the jeans
pete_dushenski: phf: you're right, that's far more 'mediated' than i'd understood to be the case previously.
phf: you don't seem to grok how "mediated" works in this case, you or your tour is assigned a dedicated kgb handler and a politruk. if you're not part of tour, then you are assigned those. personally. sop for any sort of interaction with outsiders. politruk is ~personally responsible~ for you not doing anything dodgy. your level of artificial integration depends on how important you are and how experienced your handlers are at running this
asciilifeform: i met these tourists, here.
pete_dushenski: phf: that's very much why i specified '2nd-tier' ru city, though i suppose this was based on the presumption that most of the mediation was happening in larger urban centres, which i suppose statistically it must have been, but whether that made it easier or harder to break mediated mold in smaller centres isn't thereby granted as being in any way obvious, admittedly.