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(trilema) nubbins`: or, y'know, just pay the chair a reasonable fee
(trilema) nubbins`: if the chair accepted fees to better ensure my ass stayed sat, yes, i'd examine the chair very carefully when sitting for free.
(trilema) nubbins`: most persnickety
(trilema) nubbins`: wait, right, black box.
(trilema) nubbins`: sure about that?
(trilema) nubbins`: so you're blaming the black box?
(trilema) nubbins`: "the default settings should be good enough, even though an iota of thought would reveal that they're not"
(trilema) nubbins`: or his ipnohe?
(trilema) nubbins`: did he send it from his windows box?
(trilema) nubbins`: default knobs!
(trilema) nubbins`: because wooooo spring break
(trilema) nubbins`: didn't give a fuck, tried em anyway
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform guy said himself A1, A2 should never have worked.
(trilema) nubbins`: fuck everybody, i am mp. a 0-fee tx "should" work in my ideal utopia, so it's everyone else's fault if something weird happens
(trilema) nubbins`: but he said:
(trilema) nubbins`: ten american cents would have effortlessly done the job
(trilema) nubbins`: in fact, he pushed out A1 knowing precisely the spaghetti-mess it was being pushed into
(trilema) nubbins`: hadn't taken a look at the rat's nest?
(trilema) nubbins`: oh, so he didn't know it was broken before this?
(trilema) nubbins`: egregiously and unapologetically
(trilema) nubbins`: and instead chose to breach a contract
(trilema) nubbins`: which is why it's insane that he didn't shrug off the loss
(trilema) nubbins`: sure, why not
(trilema) nubbins`: no, i don't
(trilema) nubbins`: why would judas rat out his buddy?
(trilema) nubbins`: not happening
(trilema) nubbins`: you're not passing this off as being principled
(trilema) nubbins`: i resent the implication that i haven't been
(trilema) nubbins`: instead, he chose to...
(trilema) nubbins`: just think: if bitbet had socked away the 10btc that the random dude said it stole from him, there'd only be a 7 btc fraudulent expense on the books
(trilema) nubbins`: also seems a fairly retarded way to run a business, now that this has happened
(trilema) nubbins`: he could've picked a better month to try it
(trilema) nubbins`: i guess the plan was for mp to bail it out and trawl the divs for x months
(trilema) nubbins`: not my story, i have nfi.
(trilema) nubbins`: long time to work for free
(trilema) nubbins`: that's gonna take like a year or two, man
(trilema) nubbins` is still curious how kako feels about being denied his dividends until mp gets 17btc worth
(trilema) nubbins`: that was mp's strongest rebuttal
(trilema) nubbins`: "their money, my money, whatever"
(trilema) nubbins`: oh, me too. i'm not sympathetic to children playing at adult games tho
(trilema) nubbins`: but i don't think this is necessarily alf's position
(trilema) nubbins`: my guess is fraud; alf's suggestion that B was nipped from another bet is suggesing ponzi
(trilema) nubbins`: so your choices are ponzi or fraud, served with a side of breached contract
(trilema) nubbins`: ponzi is the alternative explanation, if B was not mp's funds but was funds from another bet
(trilema) nubbins`: jurov i wouldn't either; i don't believe B was from another bet
(trilema) nubbins`: nothing noble in the act, in and of itself
(trilema) nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>with whatever was in reach. << madoff was putting out fires with whatever was in reach, too
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform then the listing agreement is extremely poorly written
(trilema) nubbins`: ,"may", "at its sole discretion" do nothing, also
(trilema) nubbins`: 4.3. Should BitBet fail to execute this Agreement, as for instance by but not limited to breaching 3.2.h above, MPEx will notify the named individuals of their breach and may, at its sole discretion, suspend the asset from trading thus activating the liquidation of the asset.
(trilema) nubbins`: unfortunately, in the case of breach of contract:
(trilema) nubbins`: yes, doubly
(trilema) nubbins`: that's 3.2 (d) and (h) busted
(trilema) nubbins`: he did it behind kako's back
(trilema) nubbins`: jurov iirc no; let me find link
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform B was money for another bet payout -- from what will B's winners be paid? C?
(trilema) nubbins`: ask madoff about legit meat
(trilema) nubbins`: aka a ponzi
(trilema) nubbins`: that's taking new funds to pay off an old debt
(trilema) nubbins`: that's worse.
(trilema) nubbins`: a private expense being, e.g., mp spending his own money out of free will
(trilema) nubbins`: there is, however, a thing in the bbet listing about not putting private expenses on the books.
(trilema) nubbins`: guess investors finally had enough crazy
(trilema) nubbins`: mpoe sinking like a stone since mp falsely claimed a chinese cartel fork
(trilema) nubbins`: oh, wait, payouts are on hold
(trilema) nubbins`: i should make a bet, "mp will attempt once more to remove nubs from lordship list by march 9"
(trilema) nubbins`: see 8btc final bet
(trilema) nubbins`: i always assumed it was so
(trilema) nubbins`: sure. why not / who cares?
(trilema) nubbins`: rubes wouldn't normally wager 7 btc to earn 0.4, but if you hold the keys, it's less of a gamble
(trilema) nubbins`: nah, although i think it's fairly boilerplate that if there's x to be made by betting y on a late bet, it happens
(trilema) nubbins`: even hanbot must be ashamed of him
(trilema) nubbins`: kakobrekla is gonna be pissed when he realizes that under mp's proposed terms, kako doesn't see a dime of dividend payouts until mp is made whole again
(trilema) nubbins`: why the fuck would you use such a site?
(trilema) nubbins`: seriously: outstanding bets that are in the system RIGHT NOW will be heading to mp's pocket later, to pay him back for his personal loss
(trilema) nubbins`: i can't see bitbet staying around as a going concern if mp doesn't eat crow
(trilema) nubbins`: kakobrekla do you think you could make the "PAYOUTS CANCELLED FOREVER" text a bit smaller? it's taking over the whole page
(trilema) nubbins`: just as long as we're all on the same page here that the 17 btc is fraudulent and mp is refusing to admit his fraud, i don't really have anything else to add, aside from shredding the ridiculous rebuttals put forth so far
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform thanks, it's refreshing to learn that at least one other person present is able to obtain information from words that have not been packaged up into a "blog post"
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform if you'll recall, i'm unable to ask mp because he has me on ignore; i've asked him via gribble ;;echo but he has deigned not to respond, save only through his girlfriend, who had nothing sensible to say
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform looks all A-OK to me
(trilema) nubbins`: yours didn't have a $7,000 private spending spree on the books
(trilema) nubbins`: 1-month absences are allowed if the missed statement is rolled into the next
(trilema) nubbins`: currently, no signed financial statement for feb 2016 exists
(trilema) nubbins`: and if that statement doesn't cover march AND february, then s.bbet has failed reporting requirements as per mpex regs
(trilema) nubbins`: wanna give him a month? next bitbet statement should be out by then
(trilema) nubbins`: pick a timeframe and we'll see
(trilema) nubbins`: you can't leave it open-ended, that's just not gonna fly
(trilema) nubbins`: what's the upper bound on the amount of time you'll wait?
(trilema) nubbins`: make a history for ourselves
(trilema) nubbins`: bitbet is a scam site if this stands, unequivocally. i dare you to declare otherwise, and if you so choose, please PGP sign it for us all
(trilema) nubbins`: put his job on the line and see if he worries
(trilema) nubbins`: he's probably too busy worrying about bitbet vanishing
(trilema) nubbins`: i can't tell if you're advocating letting the fraud stand as the only sensible option
(trilema) nubbins`: "sorry guise, turns out, as you ALL KNOW, i made a mistake that would be interpreted as fraud if it stands"
(trilema) nubbins`: of fucking course he can. what planet is this?
(trilema) nubbins`: you're the one saying he can't just say oops
(trilema) nubbins`: strange temple you've built here, stan
(trilema) nubbins`: he can't simply admit his unquestioned fraud?
(trilema) nubbins`: and mp is spraying bullshit like a fountain
(trilema) nubbins`: i'm here to get paid and call bullshit
(trilema) nubbins`: i'm not here to make friends and brown-nose some random dude
(trilema) nubbins`: what i was saying is that i came here and stuck around to make money
(trilema) nubbins`: because the gold crowns are really heavy?
(trilema) nubbins`: you got it backwards
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform goodness no
(trilema) nubbins`: but when the shit turns sour and starts liquefying and spreading around, well, it'd be remiss of me to not try to contain it
(trilema) nubbins`: of course, one can converse with pieces of shit just fine, and even occasionally work together on common goals
(trilema) nubbins`: fwiw, i also think mp is a piece of shit, but it was easy enough to idle in here and fleece some money out of him now and again. that time's obviously passed since all of his ventures are either spinning wheels or outright fraud shops
(trilema) nubbins`: but this is off-topic
(trilema) nubbins`: and his personality lacking
(trilema) nubbins`: as to why, i find his worldview repulsive
(trilema) nubbins`: don't conflate strong feelings with rage, i'm having a great day :)
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform if we're calling spades spades, i think he's a piece of shit, but one has to wonder what weight MY opinion holds in such matters
(trilema) nubbins`: like a small child holding a hot wheels shouting "vroom!"
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform agreed which is why i think pete annoys me so much
(trilema) nubbins`: put some wet food on the other side of the hoop and dole out a few head scratches
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform i'll venture a guess that it's the same way mp trains derps to stick around and parrot the party line
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform i waited until adulthood to start raising hell, nobody listens to kids. but i smell a story coming
(trilema) nubbins`: trinque not a shot, merely stating facts
(trilema) nubbins`: didn't even have to pay bingo to stick around, just bought him a domain and some text-only
(trilema) nubbins`: yep. and a quick "you got it buddy" to mod6 and "you're really good at typing things up, you're wasting your talents at the loading bay" to dpb and you've got two more sets of undies smelling like mp's dick
(trilema) nubbins`: and felt unfit to lead.
(trilema) nubbins`: or mod6, by all accounts a great guy, head of TRB, almost quit in the first week because he couldn't get a gentoo install up and running.
(trilema) nubbins`: a less-loquacious parrot regurgitating half-understood conceits
(trilema) nubbins`: take the situation of poor bitcoinpete: his underwear probably smells like mp's dick
(trilema) nubbins`: but by and large, this place is an intellectual wasteland
(trilema) nubbins`: they don't bicker much, and alf's a smart guy
(trilema) nubbins`: i could count the individuals i'd consider intellectual peers on one hand
(trilema) nubbins`: PeterL i don't know how much of the logs you've read, but it's mostly derps
(trilema) nubbins`: oh, that type of drill, not a power tool
(trilema) nubbins`: PeterL only if you own 25% of the shares
(trilema) nubbins`: i'm afraid your metaphor escapes me
(trilema) nubbins`: TMSR~ can't afford to harbour scammers or fraudsters
(trilema) nubbins`: i guess we should put his lordship to a vote in a few days if he hasn't resolved things satisfactorily
(trilema) nubbins`: i was shocked
(trilema) nubbins`: maybe he needs a loan. hanbot seems like she buys lots of stuff
(trilema) nubbins`: especially considering the shitstorm that this egregious fraud has blown up
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform seems odd behaviour for a wealthy man, no?
(trilema) nubbins`: maybe he can defraud bitbet investors too
(trilema) nubbins`: i'm all ears
(trilema) nubbins`: if there are any omissions or corrections to be made to my summation above, now would be the time
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform agreed
(trilema) nubbins`: so we can explain why A1 was held for so long before being mined, and we can explain why A2-A4 vanished, and we can explain why mp thought that sending B was a good idea, but we now see that it was simply not a good idea because mp did not understand the payment protocol as well as he thought he did, and now we've got a 17 btc fraudulent expense on bitbet's ledger
(trilema) nubbins`: and a desire to not propagate shit tx's handily explains why A1 was retained but not relayed by nodes, agreed?
(trilema) nubbins`: turns out "somehow" is "here's how:"
(trilema) nubbins`: kakobrekla seems like you've got a good understanding of the likelihood of each explanation
(trilema) nubbins`: anyone who supports this gibberish shames themselves
(trilema) nubbins`: sounds reasonable
(trilema) nubbins`: seriously. "the stupidest tx ever was slow to propagate, therefore all payouts are suspended"
(trilema) nubbins`: "what are they sniffing?"
(trilema) nubbins`: "i have to push my own tx because bitbet can't afford a tx fee"
(trilema) nubbins`: most of the users will cry "this place is fucked"
(trilema) nubbins`: maybe 10 cents if you're feeling brave.
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform the "what instead" has been stated to be "use a fee of 9 cents" more than once.
(trilema) nubbins`: this is like ordering pizza from 2 different shops, eating the one that shows up first, and acting surprised when you see both charged to your credit card
(trilema) nubbins`: a thousand times this
(trilema) nubbins`: so A1 and A2 were bad judgment calls, we can all agree there
(trilema) nubbins`: still not enough fee, by his own admission.
(trilema) nubbins`: PeterL fair nuf :)
(trilema) nubbins`: jurov incompetence
(trilema) nubbins`: so, where do we go from here? we have an mpex listing where the owner's introduced fraudulent expenses and the other owner won't sign the financial statement. the only party who has recourse of any sort is mpex, but of course the conflict of interest involved will preclude mpex from resolving the situation to honest satisfaction
(trilema) nubbins`: agreed with caveats
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform bush didn't have the smoking gun but he still went to iraq
(trilema) nubbins`: by the time it's raised, you can barely read it for the noise about "bitcoin has been forked"
(trilema) nubbins`: go to qntra article and see how long it takes for someone to even MENTION the obvious cheapo explanation
(trilema) nubbins`: and "we" jumped to the conclusion because there's a not-insignificant amount of worry in the ecosystem right now about chinese monopoly, so it's an easy lie to sell
(trilema) nubbins`: turbo scammy
(trilema) nubbins`: it's so tiny so people won't stop betting.
(trilema) nubbins`: any bets on whether that'll happen?
(trilema) nubbins`: so if mp defrauds bitbet, mpex has the OPTION of liquidating it.
(trilema) nubbins`: Should BitBet fail to execute this Agreement, as for instance by but not limited to breaching 3.2.h above, MPEx will notify the named individuals of their breach and may, at its sole discretion, suspend the asset from trading thus activating the liquidation of the asset.
(trilema) nubbins`: see with your own eyes
(trilema) nubbins`: as it stands, mp's debt is bitbet's debt.
(trilema) nubbins`: adlai yes, the refusal to admit the mistake is what's constituting the fraud.
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform unsurprisingly, it says zilch.
(trilema) nubbins`: it shares many letters with the word pizza
(trilema) nubbins`: and there's a name for an operation that pays cashouts from more recent takings
(trilema) nubbins`: adlai i don't think that mixing bets like salad paints a prettier picture.
(trilema) nubbins`: even if it'd worked, he still would have been introducing a private expense to bitbet's books and then paying himself back from A* inputs, which still breaks the listing agreement
(trilema) nubbins`: A1-A4 was bitbet's money
(trilema) nubbins`: of his own
(trilema) nubbins`: B was mysterymeat input
(trilema) nubbins`: don't make me dig up examples of bets that took a week to resolve
(trilema) nubbins`: it's not like prompt payouts have ever been a priority
(trilema) nubbins`: or, y'know, fucking waited
(trilema) nubbins`: if he'd gone straight from A1 to A4 we'd probably all be drinking soda together now
(trilema) nubbins`: unsusprisingly, nothing happened
(trilema) nubbins`: yes, he did
(trilema) nubbins`: while the backlog is still huge.
(trilema) nubbins`: with the same inputs.
(trilema) nubbins`: or send another turbo low fee transaction 12 hours later.
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform well then!
(trilema) nubbins`: asciilifeform if i send $7,000 cash in the mail, i don't let the post office choose the delivery standard
(trilema) nubbins`: the hilarity that's ensued today is me proving this to the point of ridiculousness
(trilema) nubbins`: mp does not address concerns, flaws, mistakes, or errors. ever.
(trilema) nubbins`: PeterL i don't think you understand how this place works
(trilema) nubbins`: PeterL i think it's fairly obvious that customer payouts are zero priority, given the 0-fee payout attempt followed by a payout embargo
(trilema) nubbins`: all these maybes, and more, to be left unaddressed -- stay tuned!
(trilema) nubbins`: maybe mp shouldn't have put a personal expenditure on bitbet's books!
(trilema) nubbins`: maybe bitbet shouldn't be sending 0-fee transactions when there's a massive mempool backlog!
(trilema) nubbins`: maybe we should open a node cartel!
(trilema) nubbins`: hey, i bet and have a node too
(trilema) nubbins`: dooglus in the absence of proof, i'd assume that they were sent to the same nodes
(trilema) nubbins`: that'd be turbo embarassing
(trilema) nubbins`: hope there's nothing wrong with the financials
(trilema) nubbins`: weird, still no signed bitbet statement
(trilema) nubbins`: can't simultaneously invent complicated lies and hold a convo
(trilema) nubbins`: shareholders of all mpex assets must be shitting
(trilema) nubbins`: still no response to allegations!
(trilema) nubbins`: large overlap between blatant fraud and mp right now
(trilema) nubbins`: "to a non-overlapping set of nodes" -- aha! he's found an out that he hasn't used yet -- the nodes weren't overlapping now, see?!
(trilema) nubbins`: except for B, where one of the outputs went back to you because it was your money, not bitbet's
(trilema) nubbins`: PeterL one person watching one of the 23 outputs, yes
(trilema) nubbins`: dooglus if you're wondering, mp ignored me in a fit of rage yesterday
(trilema) nubbins`: surely he couldn't just add the pubkey.
(trilema) nubbins`: yeah, how could a non-bettor have a watch-only address in his wallet?
(trilema) nubbins`: dooglus +1
(trilema) nubbins`: yes, that's right, payouts are on indefinite hiatus because paying 9 cents tx fee isn't a solution
(trilema) nubbins`: ^ just to put everyone at ease even though payouts are on indefinite hiatus, here's a 10 btc house bet
(trilema) nubbins`: ;;echo remove bettor from the statement, it's falsely constricting
(trilema) nubbins`: it's actually mind-boggling
(trilema) nubbins`: dooglus i've been saying this since the first minute, but he just won't listen
(trilema) nubbins`: PeterL that's sort of the way it is
(trilema) nubbins`: ^ you have no way of proving that
(trilema) nubbins`: that's probably a stupid assumption
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