Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-05-03 | 2018-05-05 → ↓
asciilifeform: tame/captive critters seem to have problem fi guring it out on theirown
mod6: holy christ
mod6: now that's a tallywapper.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, neets be neets neh.
mod6: fucker looks like he'd step on it if he wasn't careful!
mircea_popescu: also looks like it could quite enjoy a walk in the grass.
trinque: yeah, if either of those back legs gets tired, he can just swap it out
mod6: heheh, in other pooping education news... http://archive.is/WOyPn
mircea_popescu: india prevails.
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-05#1793291 << maybe he was trying to spare the poor people of alabama from his state sending them his shit.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-05 19:26 mod6: in other lulz: http://archive.is/vU667
mod6: gets weirder every day it seems
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 01:58 asciilifeform: trinque: it was in mircea_popescu 's 'the anal child'
mircea_popescu: does twp stand for twerp ?
trinque: gotta be
trinque to bed
mircea_popescu: ahh, but what a great day this was!
mod6: me too, ni ni!
hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1808707 << possibly even achievable if he picks up the habit of reading. so far looks like a potential major impediment tho. hey douchebag, reading's crucial, and there's --so much-- to read here.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 03:25 mircea_popescu: so there, you have a pretty great plan for yourself out of this convo. keep doing dayjob to keep food on table. meanwhile a) deliver for trinque, deliver the rsa pubkey crawl and b) talk to potential employees, get them in the wot. then as all this matures you can pivot into your desired research firm securely and from a position of unmatrched strength.
mircea_popescu: hanbot, i imagine it might pick up once he discovers that unlike ~everything else, stuff here's actually worth the trouble to read.
jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-03#1807664 << soooo i can start feeding it the gigabytes of ssh keys scraped from github?
a111: Logged on 2018-05-03 01:59 asciilifeform: i will note, in case it wasn't obvious earlier : folx who previously were refraining from linking phuctor somewhere on account of 'how could it take the heat' are nao invited to open the throttle.
mircea_popescu: jurov, shit i completely forgot. absolutely, yes. can you bundle this up for asciilifeform to download ?
jurov: It was already bundled as csv, he rejected it then, asciilifeform pls what format do you accept?
jurov: !!up fromdeedbot
deedbot: fromdeedbot voiced for 30 minutes.
jurov: fromdeedbot: speak here
fromdeedbot: I'm very new but i've lurked for a while
fromdeedbot: i read the logs and you guys have productive banter
fromdeedbot: deedbot sounds like the first implementation of a smart contract. I was wondering if you guys thought anything of ethereum. More specifically if you have continued to develop deedbot, or know of a smart contract type platform being devolped on BTC
jurov: how do you define smart contract?
diana_coman: ugh, this 3-step magic approach: 1. put out a disclaimer mixed with minimal-risk pretence of having done some homework 2. flatter generically and at minimal cost to self 3. "ask" about some current buzzwords, as a cheap way of signalling
diana_coman: fromdeedbot, if you genuinely wanted an answer to that question, you'd have searched the logs first
fromdeedbot: no genuine interest in the subject
fromdeedbot: tbh I am seeing the potential of this concept and I know that I'm late
fromdeedbot: but I want to learn
fromdeedbot: I did search the logs maybe i missed it..eth was mentioned a few times but not recently iirc
fromdeedbot: I read most of the logs here
diana_coman: fromdeedbot, "recently" doesn't change anything; read and understand the "old" stuff - around here meaning doesn't magically expire
fromdeedbot: this and cablegate
diana_coman: fromdeedbot, so then, state your question like an intelligent person: I've read this (link) and this (link) and this (link) and as far as I understand it I think you are saying there x and y and z; am I correct? how /why is x.1 so and so rather than so and the other etc.
fromdeedbot: both were early versions of using a blockchain outside of sending coins
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 12:46 fromdeedbot: I read most of the logs here
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I suspect he "read" them like that tits-girl: in one night he "read" them all, what
fromdeedbot: not lying or trying to waste your time
asciilifeform: ahahalol
diana_coman: fromdeedbot, I gave you a template for asking questions; use it when you ask next question; be warned that if you keep up with the idle "asking" , I will negrate you
fromdeedbot: I was just curious to see if there was a platform similar to Ethereum being built on BTC at the current time
diana_coman: go read about "I just wanted to"; apparently the moment you say "I just..." it's all the same what you follow with
fromdeedbot: I have not been able to find anything on the open web
asciilifeform: !#s ethertards
a111: 10 results for "ethertards", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ethertards
asciilifeform: !#s dao
asciilifeform: !!up fromdeedbot
deedbot: fromdeedbot voiced for 30 minutes.
fromdeedbot: I read about the dao and the fork
fromdeedbot: and am hesring about a second hard fork now
fromdeedbot: due to parity
fromdeedbot: i dont agree
asciilifeform: fromdeedbot: maybe consider clicking on link above and actually reading some log ?
diana_coman: and who asked you anything about what you agree/don't agree with?
fromdeedbot: if they hard fork in order to add the ability to go back and change something they ruin thespirit or the platform
fromdeedbot: sorry to bother, just saw your channel and read a bunch.... you guys figured it out early
fromdeedbot: deedbot is predecessor to smart contract imho
diana_coman: fromdeedbot, read and understand; DO something; come and show "here, I did this because x and y and z"
diana_coman: until then you have nothing to say in there
diana_coman: !!down fromdeedbot
asciilifeform: 'brekekekekex' 'whatddayamean frogs have nuffin to say and aint welcome, i've plenty to say! brekeke.....'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1808801 << jurov i'll take it in any format at all, or if you prefer to pump it into submit box, that is also good ( but would have to use Framedragger's converter and make it rfc2440 ).however, phuctoring is currently off until i figure out how to satisfy mircea_popescu's '1 per 30min' spec
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 12:13 jurov: It was already bundled as csv, he rejected it then, asciilifeform pls what format do you accept?
asciilifeform: right now i am stumped re how to do it without massive rewrite of entire proggy,
asciilifeform: because 'popped modulus' in the current architecture is not a discrete event that one can put a delay next to, or shove into a queue;
asciilifeform: only ~new factor found~ is an event. but a new factor can potentially pop N moduli.
asciilifeform: therefore i have no way currently to precisely guarantee exactly 1 rss tick per $interval.
asciilifeform: ( to be extremely specific: the rss thing is wired to a db query , rather than an explicitly constructed list )
asciilifeform: i currently have zero non-dbtronic state in phuctor. and would like to keep it that way.
asciilifeform: there are 1.7mil+ moduli in the queue right now; if i fire the werker i expect that it will produce 8-900+ popped-moduli.
asciilifeform: ( based on the history to date. )
asciilifeform: i'ma ask mircea_popescu to say how to cut this knot, when he wakes up. ( e.g., not run werker until i have time to rewrite all of phuctor again?
asciilifeform: i have nfi when i will have time for rewrite
asciilifeform: alternatively can banish the feed, if 'too floody', and then we run it feedlessly; or some other pill, i've nfi )
jurov: O.o why is rss tightly coupled iside phuctor? can't be independent job that can be ran as required?
jurov: *inside
jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-20#1469636 << the archive still lives here
a111: Logged on 2016-05-20 17:47 jurov: asciilifeform: github rsa keys: http://www.explo.yt/phathub-201506.csv.xz
jurov: with sha512sums logged below
jurov: asciilifeform: ^^
asciilifeform: ty jurov
asciilifeform: re rss, i'll elaborate in a few min after tea
mircea_popescu: jurov, because he's a terrible web programmer lol.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, frogs go "brekekekex" in your country ?!
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 12:28 fromdeedbot: deedbot sounds like the first implementation of a smart contract. I was wondering if you guys thought anything of ethereum. More specifically if you have continued to develop deedbot, or know of a smart contract type platform being devolped on BTC
mircea_popescu: but for the record, there will be an infinite stream of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1808813 until the very thermic death of the universe. and once we set the plague of french revolution to rest, and its sad effects are nowehre to be found in the world except for flaubert's books on the history of idiocy, there will SIMILARILY be "hi guise i am interested in the concept". exactly in the way and exactly for the reason "pe
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 12:44 fromdeedbot: tbh I am seeing the potential of this concept and I know that I'm late
mircea_popescu: ople" "interested" in shamanism, or no longer having to wash, or "what good are square roots anyway" will always be found.
mircea_popescu: item promises getting out of having to do some thinking ; the ill equipped towards humanity find it indistinguishable from refined sugar.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 12:49 diana_coman: asciilifeform, I suspect he "read" them like that tits-girl: in one night he "read" them all, what
mircea_popescu: i'm still not certain he wasn't telling the truth even.
mod6: Mornin' TMSR~
mircea_popescu: heya mod6
mod6 reads scrollback
mod6: Alright. :]
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, hmmm, I had in mind an even faster she-reader but I can't seem to find ref; that works too I suppose although I suspect the fromdeedbot guy "read" even faster
mircea_popescu: reading can go surprisingly fast if it doesn't make much difference what order the words come in.
mircea_popescu: sort -u and then just read the histogram, see.
mircea_popescu: (laugh if you will, however a) this is EXACTLY what alphabet imagines "artificial intelligence" means and b) this is EXACTLY what they teach them to do in school these days. so... joke's on you, mr barbarian bereft of bayesian behehehnologies.)
diana_coman: well of course; once that stumbling block, annoying and unfair and barrier to entry and everything that is bad - aka comprehension is removed, all is plain sailing; no surprise there
mircea_popescu: comprehension is only a matter of oppinion!!11
mircea_popescu: (laugh if you will, but this is EXACTLY what they believe, http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/arsdigita-greenspun.html etc).
diana_coman is not laughing as she met the belief irl...
mircea_popescu: so when "educators" ie child molesters claim they produce "familiarity" in children with so and so, this is PRECISELY what they mean.
asciilifeform: ohai mircea_popescu
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 14:15 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, frogs go "brekekekex" in your country ?!
mircea_popescu: i must confess it's pretty good onomatopoeia.
asciilifeform: the greeks knew what they were doing.
mircea_popescu: in my country they go "oac", which admittedly makes 0 sense. (in fact, my country is famous in the harem for having apparently never heard any of the animal sounds it purportedly renders.)
asciilifeform: jurov: the way it works is, every time /rss pg is generated , we go select mods from factors order by whenfound desc limit N ( n is 20 currently ) ; call this M, it is a list of moduli affected by that factor being known. afterwards , ~each~ of these lists is tested against the set of ~gpg keys~ , in the shape of select * from gpgkeys where [the list from earlier] && mods , and this yields up a list of most-recently-popped ~keys~, w
asciilifeform: hich forms the rss output.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, you could simply push that into a table and then have a script read from it to populate the rss
asciilifeform: jurov: observe that a factor being found can potentially pop one key, ten, or a thousand.
mircea_popescu: have it add the timestamp whenever it reads ; push out one once the timestamp is old enough, and write the new timestamp next to it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is 100x more state complexity than i have now, is the point
mircea_popescu: index by modulus so you only report each once and there you go.
asciilifeform: i sat down to write it yesterday and got mired in swamp.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, it would be entirely separate from what you got now neh ?
asciilifeform: nope, nothing is separate or separable, if the rss generator has state, that's a whole new table and a 2x-as-long total program
asciilifeform: ( phuctor www is 700 ln now )
asciilifeform: see,it did not occur to asciilifeform even in bad dreams that anyone would ever ask for the thing to be rate-limited !
asciilifeform: so i made no fundamental provision for it.
mircea_popescu: there's in fact two separate problems. one of them is that large walls of robot generated text are hostile to human habitation. the OTHER however, is that the news value of the first factor of a modulus exceeds the news value of all subsequent factors summed by degrees of magnitude, because of the 0, 1 infinity rule.
mircea_popescu: merely addressing the latter may well get you out of addressing the former for a while to come.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually for quite some time i've had it so that it finds both factors in 1 day ( when we're dealing with a proper 2-large-primes mod, rather than random liquishit )
mircea_popescu: yes, but only one need be reported, is the idea.
asciilifeform: but i can definitely see the merits of 'only publish 1st factor'. problem is that this is even ~more~ complicated to implement than the earlier scheme.
asciilifeform: still requires a stateful machine in a place where i currently have none.
asciilifeform: honestly i had nfi that fixing the db would be to my grief.
mircea_popescu: it's only minor grief! it's mostly great benefit!
asciilifeform: we're talking about an unbounded amount of sweat
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yet another approach would be to do what ben_vulpes did, make a channel for it ?
asciilifeform: ( i cannot with good conscience say how many weeks it will take to do this. )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see, it will spit out another thou or 2, and then it'll be oncie-twocie per week.
asciilifeform: once the Framedragger fodder runs out.
asciilifeform: i do not have a deedbot to throw into a dedicated channel, nor do i have a month in which to write a phuctor-compatible channel-talker.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, once the Framedragger fodder runs out there's the jurov fodder.
asciilifeform: based on earlier github run, i suspect that it's good for maybe a dozen ticks.
asciilifeform: ( but this is pure conjecture. )
mircea_popescu: but, i confess i absolutely do not follow the logic here. so, making a new table, and a py script to update it and print it as described above, unbounded ammount of sweat, months of work ?
mircea_popescu: i can't imagine.
asciilifeform: the utter undebuggability and nonfitting-in-asciilifeform's-head of the pertinent components, results in this.
mircea_popescu: now i can imagine.
asciilifeform: wwwism is foreign and repulsive to asciilifeform , and it was to his grief that he ever stepped into it.
mircea_popescu: well, the proper statement here isn't that "fixing db will be to my grief" ; the proper statement is that "fixing db, while a massive improvement to the $item, has the unfortunate drawback of requiring some trims i'm ill equipped to handle / have to send for across town"
asciilifeform: and observe, i put on heaviest gas mask , and sat with postgres docs for week+, and nao reward 'go and write another 1000ln of postgresolade'
mircea_popescu: much in the vein proper smoked rib bean stu requires allspice.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is pretty much your 'cleaned air filter of lada' story from c3
mod6: What if someone pitched in a hand to make a new bot for ya, so like Mr. P. said, you just have own channel. Then it can just burp as it is necessary.
mod6: This to me, seems like the most painless way.
mircea_popescu: mod6, what i was going to propose is for someone to write his rss python script and needed queries.
mircea_popescu: however, he'd have to run a script he doesn't actually understand.
asciilifeform: mod6: where would you plug it in ? there is no 'new tick' event.
asciilifeform: the 'newness' presently is determined 100% by the rss ~receiver~
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, it generates its tick, that's what the whole "ave it add the timestamp whenever it reads ; push out one once the timestamp is old enough, and write the new timestamp next to it." is all about.
mircea_popescu: actually, maybe this'll help, let me formalize this for you :
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unless i catastrophically misunderstand own proggy, this 'tick' is an illusion, it is same db query every time, but returns different things, but at same time proggy does not keep any state to know that they are different from prev query
asciilifeform: there is no state and thereby no possibility of a wedge.
mircea_popescu: 1. consider a process which produces tabular data, in the shape of lines of A B C D columns.
asciilifeform begins to consider
jurov: asciilifeform: can't add timestamp column to gpgkeys "lastpopped" that gets updated?
asciilifeform: jurov: no, massive slowdown, it's a reading-strictly process
asciilifeform: i deliberately crafted the thing to enable dirty reads one day, whenever i find out how to obtain them at all
mircea_popescu: 2. the proposed modification is to create a new table, of columns A B C D timestamp. this is to be indexed on whichever A B C D is the modulus. the proposed use is to have a process sort this table by unique index where timestamp = "" ; report ONE such item, and update ALL the lines with that modulus with current timestamp IF any only IF the highest timestamp found in the table is 900 seconds behind current timestamp.
jurov: with new table it'll be slow, too?
mircea_popescu: 3. this will introduce no further state or anything else in the original process ; it just happily spits its output at whatever rate it wishes.
mircea_popescu: and yes, the reason it has separate table is so it doesn't mess up your locks on the main one.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is the correct algo, and i drew it on own chalkboard last night, but my entire point is that i do not know with confidence how long it will take to implement and debug.
mircea_popescu: for some reason it seems trivial to me, but anyways.
asciilifeform: if you can live with stalling phuctor for , potentially, whole month -- we can have it. otherwise not.
asciilifeform: ( and ffa correspondingly delay by a new month ... )
mircea_popescu: im unsure why phuctor would have to be stalled at all. you mean the reporting here of popped moduli ?
asciilifeform: the werker process, period.
asciilifeform: right now it is the ~only~ thing that writes to factors table.
asciilifeform: and if it writes, they go into rss. and if feed is enabled, they appear here.
mircea_popescu: how do they go into rss if it writes ?
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 15:00 asciilifeform: jurov: the way it works is, every time /rss pg is generated , we go select mods from factors order by whenfound desc limit N ( n is 20 currently ) ; call this M, it is a list of moduli affected by that factor being known. afterwards , ~each~ of these lists is tested against the set of ~gpg keys~ , in the shape of select * from gpgkeys where [the list from earlier] && mods , and this yields up a list of most-recently-popped ~keys~, w
jurov: asciilifeform: at this point just add insert into the new table and leave its reading to mod6 or anyone who has irc bot?
mircea_popescu: you understand the other algo would be about 100x less machine work ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is correct. but there are so few factors known presently, that all operations on factors are ~O(1)
asciilifeform: ( i.e. dwarfed by constant factor )
mircea_popescu: doesn't seem like it'll be very sustainable. vixtim of your own success eh ?
asciilifeform: the actual number of factors known has not increased at anything like the rate of popped moduli, on account of most of said factors being from the debian pool
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, how about this : you edit your current rss script, so that ~instead~ of what it does, it plunks its results down in a new table ; and someone (tm) writes you the py script to read that new table and put out usable rss for deedbot. how about that ?
asciilifeform: possibly mircea_popescu does not yet grasp how it works ? if you run it today 1000 times, it will return exactly the same 20 items 1000 times
asciilifeform: the whole notion of 'put into a table' implies ~100% of the requested functionality to be already present
mircea_popescu: redundancy makes no difference here. they'll still only be reported once.
asciilifeform: and how is anyone to get access to said table ?
mircea_popescu: well, you'd be running the rss script yourself. ever ran code you didn't write before ?
asciilifeform: anyone who wants to volunteer to write this, can use the db snapshot i previously published ( it contains, naturally, the schema. ) to test, remove some entries from factors table, then add'em back in ( ideally several dozen at a time )
mircea_popescu: (also, i'll point out, rss is very much not web ; it's basically pipe.)
asciilifeform: if the volunteered proggy makes sense to me, i will emplace it on dulap and say 'thank you'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, did you just say "anyone who wants to do this must do it in the way it wasn't specified because i'm not making the principal element everything rests on" ?
asciilifeform: however it must not interfere with the function of the existing code, nor require werker to do anything other than what it presently does, which is to test ALL factors ( bernestein returns ALL factors EVERY time it runs ) against 'factors' table, and , if novel , add factor to it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i simply went with your hypothesis, which is that the desired feature is truly implementable independently from the rest of the proggy.
mircea_popescu: you still have to create and feed a new table.
asciilifeform: if this is so -- then it should be possible to make it in a separate process that simply reads from db ( can write to own table, even, if it wants, so long as i do not have to know about it )
mircea_popescu: you have to write to it.
asciilifeform: my writer writes to the factors table. this ought to suffice.
asciilifeform: alternatively you then are asking for entirely different program, that cannot be easily made out of the existing db.
asciilifeform: yes, i can write this program. but no i do not know how long it'll take. and yes it would be to the detriment of other projects.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform does not say this to raise mircea_popescu's blood pressure, but strictly out of truth.
mircea_popescu: anyway. so what's the situation here, phuctor currently going through Framedragger 's and jurov 's set preparing ; reporting of results here disrupted until this is sorted out ?
asciilifeform: situation is that parcels 11 and 12 already added to db; ( 13 would take about 6hrs to swallow , i held off on feeding any moar until we have this thread ) ; werker cron job is currently off, if i switch it on, 45min later we get 1k lines in log ( or alternatively we switch off feed and sleep through 1k pops , take yer pick ) or i go and write a ~new phuctor and nfi when finish.
mircea_popescu: well certainly the whole "get expensive phuctor machine" thing wasn't on nsa books so that it works for three days and then waits forever.
asciilifeform: didnt think so
asciilifeform: y'know, asciilifeform won't cry if mircea_popescu wants to dispense with the feed, also
asciilifeform: ( maybe it is a snoar )
asciilifeform: results will still be browsable on the www
mircea_popescu: it seems to me ridiculous to a degree bordering on infantilism that it is "impossible" to get the data out after being so complexly massaged into utility ; but be that as it may, let phuctor run and report on its website, the interested will try and sift through whatever it publishes on their own time.
mircea_popescu: what can we do.
asciilifeform: i did not say 'impossible', just that i cannot rise to being able to promise 'i know exactly how, it'll take 3 days'
asciilifeform: purely from own lack of www/dbtronics craft.
asciilifeform: certainly not 'impossible', mircea_popescu described the correct algo.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, in production systems, "machine offline" === "impossible".
asciilifeform: it helps to recall that this product is already at the very outermost edge of what asciilifeform knows how to do.
asciilifeform: by all rights 'it ought never have worked'
mircea_popescu: this will of course bring to the fore the deep reason rss feed was principal avenue into the data, ie that the web view is not really very useful, but anyways.
asciilifeform: i dun even disagree
asciilifeform: tho the principal use imho of phuctor is to the owners of newly-generated rsa keys, to search for self.
mircea_popescu: they need to see the results somehow.
asciilifeform: well they paste in own key and get either green, yellow ( come back in a few hrs ) or... red.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, what you got running on that machine, lamp ? apache + python bindings ?
asciilifeform: straight python + postgres behind nginx cacher.
asciilifeform: + entirely separate c proggy that actually does the bernsteinization.
asciilifeform: ( i/o solely via the db )
mircea_popescu: suppose you create a unix user ; give it read-only priviledges on extant tables, and let someone else write a webfacing thing for you ?
asciilifeform: this is ~equiv to handing over the project.
asciilifeform: which i do not want.
mircea_popescu: well yes but looky : all projects to be useful must communicate. giving someone else the communication part certainly has some aspects of relinquishing control, but you can't at the same time not know how to communicate and not work with someone who does. it's self-defeating, this strategy.
asciilifeform: i control the src.
asciilifeform: this is why there is not yet a mit 'lucktor' or whatever they'll call it.
mircea_popescu: the src of which ?
asciilifeform: 100% of whole orchestra.
asciilifeform: it is not as separable as you seem to think.
mircea_popescu: weren't you just explaining that there's a python display part and a c work part, and you suck at the python part ?
asciilifeform: they are still intimately welded to each other semantically.
mircea_popescu: i didn't even know this can be done with c and python.
asciilifeform: in the sense where subtly changing one, will subtly break the other, in 9000 possible ways.
asciilifeform: it can.
asciilifeform: thing wasn't built to be dismembered cleanly.
mircea_popescu: but be that as it may : giving someone the capacity to read the db has no bearing on breaking. can reading the db break anything ?
asciilifeform: reading the db -- breaks nothing. and i already published the db ( and ergo schema . ) hence my suggestion from earlier, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1808989
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 15:30 asciilifeform: anyone who wants to volunteer to write this, can use the db snapshot i previously published ( it contains, naturally, the schema. ) to test, remove some entries from factors table, then add'em back in ( ideally several dozen at a time )
asciilifeform: ohai BingoBoingo !
mircea_popescu: lobbes, you about ?
BingoBoingo: Alive, catching up on logs and about to hit the datacenter
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yes, but in the very constrained environment there proposed they'll have to do a bunch of debugging, hence the "make them a user" notion.
asciilifeform: i am not averse to the pain of debugging.
mircea_popescu: otherwise you're setting yourself up for failure through 5000 update file requests.
asciilifeform: but if someone stands up to write something for me to debug -- i will 1) say 'thank you' 2) debug it.
lobbes: I still dun get why seperate channel wouldn't work? deedbot today somehow does xyz and successfully announces phuctor pops here. Why can't one of the n00bs stand up a bot to do the same thing... but in a side channel? Shouldn't require any changes at all to standing phuctor process, right?
asciilifeform: lobbes: again, we are discussing permanent (and quite complex) solutions to a temporary problem. after current batch, it'll be 1-2 pops a week if we're lucky.
mircea_popescu: lobbes, how about you look at his published db schema, and propose a py script he can run that delivers the desired rss ? this something you can do ?
mircea_popescu: there's also a chunk doing ip geolocation, trinque published coupla days ago, should go in.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, that sort of thinking is how we got here in the first place.
mircea_popescu: "oh, there will be >0 pops if we're lucky"
mircea_popescu: then there were thousands. and then...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly. i can think of a scenario where your bufferizer could become necessary again.
trinque: isn't that the point? lol!
mircea_popescu: i can think of like two. but anyway.
trinque: the code I published will work fine with any logbot someone stands up
mircea_popescu: trinque, honestly i'd much rather just fix the rss than stand up a dedicated bot. way the fuck cheaper and rather more adequate to the actual task at hand.
trinque: it's just a ball of pyshit, reading rss, accounting in sqlite, writing to logbot's outbox table
trinque: mircea_popescu: no argument to the contrary here
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-03#1808327 + http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-02#1807600 << Failed to find any issues with the counts outstanding
a111: Logged on 2018-05-03 19:16 mircea_popescu: poor bb hasn't yet returned the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-02#1807589
a111: Logged on 2018-05-02 21:53 BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-02#1807521 << That is right, no outstanding errors have been found
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, aty.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-03#1808329 << Last night was the Peruana. The Venezolana is for friendship and learning survival skills, the Peruana is for boning and enjoy the experience of being worshipped for the color of my skin.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-03 19:17 mircea_popescu: dat venezuelo chick's boning him dry!
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: do you dine on guinea pig with the peruana ?
asciilifeform always wanted to try such meat
mircea_popescu: ever had rabbit ?
asciilifeform: many times, and i know of no finer flesh than rabbit
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Not yet. Can pick some up at the feria. Now that I know we have Loros, I am kinda curious how those taste.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, imagine if rabbit was beef ; guinea pig would be... pig.\
mircea_popescu: sweeter/fatter meat.
asciilifeform: interesting
asciilifeform: so sorta like duck vs chicken
BingoBoingo: I have had rabbit a number of times. Enjoy picking out the bits of shot.
mircea_popescu: no, duck is basically goat. gamier.
mircea_popescu: anytway, chicken dun enter into this, animal's a fucking reptile not a mammal.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-03#1808335 << Five hours if I take the more expensive ferry out of Montevideo. 6+ if I go to colonia for the cheaper ticket, but that involves a bus. Few things are less enjoyable the being stuck on a tin can full of Uruguayos.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-03 19:18 asciilifeform: ( how long does it sail, 2 hours each way ? )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was speaking strictly of the fat diff
mircea_popescu: oh right you are, it was a coupla hours ~to colonia~. coupla hundy km to montevideo from there.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, rabbit is however extremely lean. but i suppose in a sense.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, take the peruana for a day trip ? i find tits surroundant make airflight bearable.
BingoBoingo: It's a possibility.
mircea_popescu: or take them both, see what happens.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1808532 << Other than alf voicing general support for the idea, I am completely unaware of any ongoing discussions to improve my compensation. That we have arrived in May without any proposals has me somewhat feeling like I got played for the sucker on this.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 02:30 mircea_popescu: well, good thing you gave him a raise, just as this thing became one helluva anklet.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i've already brought it up on record 2x. the other members of the board have not yet answered.
BingoBoingo: And that is appreciated.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: nobody got 'played', thus far errybody has honoured their part of the pact. but yes imho we can afford to put some fat back on BingoBoingo's bones
asciilifeform: ftr prior to leaving BingoBoingostan, asciilifeform took the liberty of making a modest donation to BingoBoingo out of own pocket. because, imho, proper thing to do. and did not want to wait for board approval, would rather simply pay from pocket.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: it is greatly appreciated. And there's still a lot of adult business/figuring out exactly what pizarro is going on, which is why I have been letting it slide. But being several months into this venture the silence on this issue from the rest of the board is a sore spot, I have no idea if it is a thing they are even considering.
asciilifeform: mod6, ben_vulpes -- a 10% diff in what BingoBoingo eats, will not make or break us, either we find customers and float, else -- sink. on the other hand, a starved and demoralized BingoBoingo is pretty bad for biznis. we do not have a spare BingoBoingo .
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, you gotta get better at talking things through ; the "other members" talk has its places but this isn't one.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/qntra-sqntr-march-april-2018-statement/ << Trilema - Qntra (S.QNTR) March - April 2018 Statement
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: current board : mod6 + ben_vulpes + asciilifeform
asciilifeform: ( at one time asciilifeform nominated phf to serve on the board in asciilifeform's stead, but there was no response, so i took it as a 'no ty' )
ben_vulpes chewing through log
mircea_popescu: understand that when you opt ot make "small donations" as a palliative measure to reconcile the goat and the cabbage you're not using the tool. this is orcism, "i don't know how to work vacuum cleanner but did some fingerbanging of the dust ad interim"
asciilifeform: vaccum cleaner sorely in need of tuneup imho.
mircea_popescu: the board's there to help not to get in the way, as a concept.
asciilifeform: ideally.
lobbes: I'm not opposed to taking a look but my hopper is getting saturated as-is >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809054
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 15:50 mircea_popescu: lobbes, how about you look at his published db schema, and propose a py script he can run that delivers the desired rss ? this something you can do ?
lobbes: In fact, it occurred to as I was about to list my TODO in-channel that it may be more beneficial to bake it as a blog post. Would allow the forum to suggest re-prioritizations as well as serve as a single place I can point to and say "this be what I'm working on right now". Anyways, I'll bake one tonight
lobbes bbl
mircea_popescu: lobbes, this was conceived as a priority item, because ideally quick to do. but ...
mod6: <+asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: i've already brought it up on record 2x. the other members of the board have not yet answered. << I have not seen or been given any formal proposal for anything of such a raise.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and yes it was orcish. but it was an uncomfortable place for asciilifeform , d00d spent ~week busting his arse helping asciilifeform , and prior to that -- half yr building up pizarro, and he cannot afford new shoelaces.
mod6: And aside from that, I'm not opposed outright to this, but before we start handing out more money, I'd like to see where Pizarro stands as far as how much further we need to go to break-even, etc.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-02 01:22 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6 , plox to put the matter ^ before board.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 02:33 asciilifeform did , properly in log, ask the board to discuss raise for BingoBoingo , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-02#1807279
mircea_popescu: anyway, /me will expose the hand, might as well be upfront about things. so, asciilifeform did at some point express some interest in learning the magical crafts of management ; i since fed him the occasional dollop, in the manner this craft was always taught whenever it was taught. as part of this, when he left for montevideo i specifically told him to recognize BingoBoingo 's efforts with a raise early rather than late for
mircea_popescu: very good reasons.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 16:11 asciilifeform: mod6, ben_vulpes -- a 10% diff in what BingoBoingo eats, will not make or break us, either we find customers and float, else -- sink. on the other hand, a starved and demoralized BingoBoingo is pretty bad for biznis. we do not have a spare BingoBoingo .
mod6: Maybe picture becomes slightly more clear after this months report.
mircea_popescu: that he ~tried to~ is evident ; that it didn't work is even more evident. you lot have to have words together and get better at this.
mircea_popescu: don't start pointing fingers and acting like idiots about it, either. you've got a problem, because to survive one must stay agile, not senilize before the time.
asciilifeform: an entire rail car full of iron would not do any good, mod6, ben_vulpes , if we dun have a well-oiled BingoBoingo .
mod6: Hey, let's get real for a moment. I'm not disputing any of that!
mod6: Please send me some pgp-gram info on what/where/when/how.
asciilifeform: mod6: no need even for pgpgram. i propose, here and now, a +10% increase in BingoBoingo's pay. this will add up to the cost of 1 1U supermicro in a yr, or alternatively slightly less than ben_vulpes lost in customs lotto.
asciilifeform: effective at the start of next cycle.
mod6: So, you're saying, basically, $180 extra, per month? Or how does this go?
asciilifeform: correct.
asciilifeform: then he can get , possibly, new shoelaces, and even a flat.
asciilifeform: instead of slowly going mad in the flea pit.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, tis more than just the rss / "wwwism is foreign and repulsive to asciilifeform". you've seen me communicate clearly and early about ten thousand times, and here you are stuck doing late ineffectuality. not good.
asciilifeform: and could start having energy for such things as expeditions to buenos aires to hunt for btc buyers, electric parts, etc
mod6: Really?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apparently when i speak, it comes out in martian, or sumthing, folx simply dun register it
mircea_popescu: gotta speak ~to~ whoever you'e speaking to ; not ~of~ whatever you're speaking of.
asciilifeform: i assumed, perhaps mistakenly, that when i say 'proposal for ze board!' it knows who it is
mircea_popescu: the difference between me and ten thousand librarians who also read the same books is that i don't go around spitting out the references in lieu of doing the inadherent wwwism.
mod6: This may have been my fault. I am a busy man, may have over looked it.
mod6: For these sorts of things, don't hesitate to send a formal pgpgram to me.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'll be the first to admit, that asciilifeform 'plays the tuba despite not knowing how'
asciilifeform: mod6: pgpgrams are for seekrits, e.g. logins to boxen, missile coordinates.
asciilifeform: this here's an open proposal for board. however if mod6 & ben_vulpes would like me to sign & deedbot it, i will.
mod6: Ok, I'll take the blame here -- I missed whatever proposal in some log.
mod6: Next time, besure to get my attention though.
mod6: And, currently I see no issue with $180 extra per month. We do want our System Administrator to be able to have a liveable life in .uy. Will discuss ofc.
mod6: We'll get back to ya all.
asciilifeform: ( but yes, i study from mircea_popescu, and no i'm not yet even journeyman-grade in biznistronics )
mod6: Just get my attention, "YOH MOD6 WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT X!?"
mod6: Then that works a lot better, I'm way less likely to overlook something like that.
asciilifeform: mod6: does your 't-bot' still work ?
asciilifeform: seems like it would be of great win for this type of thing
mod6: I turned it off about the time that douche showed up.
asciilifeform: esp if it can be configed to block the introduction of new $item until $previtem is resolved or formally tabled.
mod6: No one uses it anyway.
mod6: Tickets are still available on the website.
asciilifeform: seems like we've found the natural use for it.
asciilifeform: mod6: can i persuade you to revv it up in #pizarro ?
asciilifeform: its time, imho, has come.
mod6: Maybe.
mod6: Perhaps.
mod6: bbs.
BingoBoingo: I'm going to go do the FG surgery and lets the adults talk through things, but... Remember the $20/day per diem arose out of a time when I was working on BBisp and chasing a prospect. When the statement's out do some math, float some compensation proposals covering a 12 month span, and recognize that and extra $180 a month still leaves me in the position of dipping into my savings rather frequently. Maybe weight the compensation boost
BingoBoingo: more heavily to the end of the year? As it is I am still effectively paying out of my diminishing savings to live amongst the retards.
asciilifeform: pizarro is exactly the sort of thing where it shines. many, many small and mechanical fixes that need tracking.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if you are dipping into savings just to eat, will have to be straight about it, say exactly how much you would actually need in order to not run on batteries.
asciilifeform: otherwise we are in for unplesant surprise at some point, and this will not do !
asciilifeform: *unpleasant
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: this sounds vaguely familiar
zx2c4: you found a gpg key with obvious primes or something?
asciilifeform: and, naturally,
asciilifeform: !#s phuctor
a111: 4716 results for "phuctor", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=phuctor
zx2c4: MY GPG KEY IS IN HERE
zx2c4: just messin
asciilifeform: ideally errybody's is
asciilifeform: ( if it's public, i.e. i can get to it, it's prolly in there )
mircea_popescu: aaanyways ; not the end of the world. learning is how learning goes, after all.
zx2c4: ahh looks like hanno has called y'all out on this?
asciilifeform: here comes
asciilifeform: !#s boeck
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, vice-versa.
mircea_popescu: hanno boeck, some chick named nirdlinger or nirflinger or whatever and some other schmucks lied for years about having done research they never actually did.
asciilifeform: henninger
asciilifeform: ( & a few other mouths )
mircea_popescu: then whatever victims they lied to decided rather than admit they were swindled out of whatever the scammers cost, it'd be better for academic facade to pretend the fraud was never exposed, and carry on.
mircea_popescu: this is actually pretty common behaviour, among idiots.
zx2c4: nadia's research is quite real
mircea_popescu: or w/e, "crypto blockchain investors" w/e.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, "real" in what sense ? it was published once phuctor published the results, through the procedure of copy.pasting it.
zx2c4: oh. is your beef that you were masscanning the net first, and then these other people stole your idea and ran with it?
asciilifeform: zx2c4: the 'idea' is, arguably, euclid's.
mircea_popescu: no. some people were lying about doing research that they did not do. then we came and "stole" their "idea", did it, published results.
mircea_popescu: then they failed to go hang themselves.
mircea_popescu: for all the difference it makes.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: i wrote phuctor in 2013 after yrs of watching academiderps fraudulently pretend to have performed similar experiment ( while they published 0 keys )
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: when did you first publish your research?
zx2c4: ahh 2013 nice
zx2c4: zmap came out in 2013
zx2c4: halderman and heninger have worked together a lot
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, you're more than welcome to identify sets of keys WITH THE RESPECTIVE FACTORS published by anyone, at any time, then compare this with the phuctor set, and then write to whatever plagiarism committee you imagine is keeping academia from wallowing in the utter gutters of the intellectual world.
zx2c4: https://zmap.io/paper.pdf looks like they did this in 2013 too
mircea_popescu: it does not look like anything. KEYS and FACTORS. not stories about. the numbers.
zx2c4: ahh so the complaint is that
zx2c4: you guys are publishing the pure data
mircea_popescu: in order to have published, you must publish ; otherwise herodotus' imaginary travels are the first source for animals that don't exist.
zx2c4: whereas academics never publish any code or data and usually just spill latex
asciilifeform: zx2c4: what they do -- we call it fraud.
zx2c4: gotcha
zx2c4: so to summarize your beef with these people,
asciilifeform: and it is not even the old-fashioned pecuniary fraud, but organized smoke screen for nsa.
ben_vulpes: mod6 asciilifeform: i dun object; pizarro needs a better foundation than a writhing pile of chinches. i'd like to get a flat down there; this can consolidate the housing and desk expenses and provide i expect much needed moral uplift.
zx2c4: "They published studies but didnt publish the raw data to support their conclusions" - would this be an accurate summary?
asciilifeform: zx2c4: i refuse to dignify their disinfo with the word 'study'
mircea_popescu: no. the summary is what i told you : they LIED about doing research ; some victims paid them money ; the data was then published by third parties ; they stole it ; the victims ate it.
zx2c4: s/studies/wordsinapdf/
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: i recall many sticking points around the flat; wouldja enumerate? water heater, previous flatrental...?
mircea_popescu: it's plain and simple fraud, and yes of the criminal sort.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: good, let's discuss in a bit
mircea_popescu: that fraud does not usually get punished by the "legal system" does not mean either boeck or pirate are respectable items.
ben_vulpes: also this has to be in addition to icecream monies.
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: woah okay so thats a whole other dimension
ben_vulpes gotta make some breakfast for other dependents, bbiab
zx2c4: you're saying that nadia and alex and people got PAID by the nsa or somebody not to release certain results?
mircea_popescu: for the record, pirate was also indicted by the us circus at ~our~ pressure, and only after it became obvious to the usg that i am actually making it impossible for him to be of any further "use".
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, no. i am saying that they are intelectually incosequential ninnies, who happened to tell a convenient lie.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: pay and written orders are not a necessary hypothesis. fact of the matter is that you do not get to ~become~ 'a nadia' or 'a boeck' unless you behave 'like a civilized academic' and do what is expected of you, without being asked.
zx2c4: well boeck isnt an academic
asciilifeform: for instance 'responsible disclosure' ( i.e. if you find a bug, report to usg first )
mircea_popescu: right. and he makes money gardening.
zx2c4: he's a journalist who likes tinkering with fuzzers and stuff
mircea_popescu: if you believe that.
asciilifeform: i got a bridge to sellya.
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: i never even considered the possibility that was some kind of conspiratorial cover story. wow.
zx2c4: so im still a bit fuzzy on the claims here
zx2c4: the ones i have down are:
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, understand the full model of this : ambitious people whose hardware does not support their aspirations (ie, the aspirational 14%) say things that are not true. such as "we did research of so and so". now and again, they happen on a useful lie, something the establishment does not actually want researchedf. so they get a little slop, to encourage them to continue with their nonsense, while their imago is then used to pe
mircea_popescu: rhaps discourage "men alone" (such as, prior to finding this place, yourself) from actually doing the research in question.
mircea_popescu: it works well enough, for as long as the republic doesn't mess up things.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: consider, 'researchers' did their 'research' while the debian keys calamity lay unpublic for 3+ yrs.
asciilifeform: somehow.
asciilifeform: even though if anyone had bothered to euclid over they pubkeys, he would have discovered ~immediately~ that there are 32768 possible primes.
zx2c4: the concrete claims i understand you to be making are:
zx2c4: - academics released wordsonapdf without releasing raw data to support conclusions
zx2c4: - they didnt actually do the research and wordsonapdf were entirely fabricated.
zx2c4: - academics were paid or told by NSA to suppress certain conclusions from their publications.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, 2. 3 is an indirect side effect of no particular consequence.
zx2c4: what is the meaning of the first period in your message? parser error
zx2c4: 2&3? part 3 of item 2?
asciilifeform: zx2c4: 2) they did not do the research
zx2c4: oh
asciilifeform: 3 is simply not a necessary hypothesis, it is very rare that the skepter has to be raised and something explicitly forbidden from above
mircea_popescu: you can fuzz the nsa if you want, and get money from them this way. the methodology is explained in http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523269 (reads thew linked item too).
a111: Logged on 2016-08-17 17:02 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the reason there's a lot of credence in phf's perhaps harsh criticism is http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/
mircea_popescu: one could readily mechanize the process that created say curtis yarvin's "identity", say.
zx2c4: alright rereading, resynthesizing, adding a claim i understand you to be making too:
zx2c4: - academics released wordsonapdf without releasing raw data to support conclusions *because* they didn't actually do any research to generate said raw data
zx2c4: - academics were paid or told by NSA to suppress certain conclusions from their publications.
zx2c4: - hanno being a journalist is a mere cover story for a more sinister secret government intelligence job he holds.
zx2c4: i will ask them about this
mircea_popescu: how about this : "academics/journalists/assorted neets released wordsonapdf without releasing raw data to support conclusions *because* they didn't actually do any research to generate said raw data" ; "these baseless claims were paid fiat paper, because the person ion charge of distributing fiat paper to baseless claims picked them out of the sea of similar batshit insane nonsense emanating from the insane asylum at large, f
mircea_popescu: or whatever reasons".
zx2c4: i dont really understand...
mircea_popescu: then, when shit hit the fan and both these matters were publicly proven, the reaction of all involved was to deny ; and of all naive bystanders to "memory hole effect".
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, which part ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that the fella still labours under the impression that boeck et al are the 'authorities' , sitting in judgement of ~us~ , and that it is we who must somehow prove beyond reasonable doubt that they lie
zx2c4: the claims of those zmap papers certainly arent baseless, since you evidently have hit similar results?
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with that.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, show me these results!
mircea_popescu: you can't say "x is similar to y" when y exists and x does not.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: the fact that not a single broken key was published prior to phuctor's, is not a problem in your eye ?
asciilifeform: somehow you have faith that 'they wouldn't straight and pull it all out of their arse, mit is respectable!', is that it ?
zx2c4: so what if i told you that
zx2c4: ive seen the results and the data with my own eyes
zx2c4: (i actually havent, dont get too excited)
asciilifeform: zx2c4: then i would ask why you decided to be an accomplice in usg coverup ?
mircea_popescu: then we'd wonder why you didn't publish it.
zx2c4: would you be inclined to believe me or would this be evidence that i'm also in on the conspiracy
mircea_popescu: !#s "whisperers"
a111: 21 results for "\"whisperers\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22whisperers%22
asciilifeform: ( which , yes, is what 'responsible disclosure' is, no exceptions )
mircea_popescu: the item exists, re bolix, say. which people saw but did not publish. and are to be very much ashamed of.
zx2c4: well, rest assured, i've personally done a spooky amount of full disclosure stuff...
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, i dunno what conspiracy is under discussion here.
asciilifeform: in ru prison argot, this is also called 'to be a mouse', and is seen as equally damning as 'to be a rat' ( steal from one's fellows , rather than the engl meaning of snitch )
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: just trying to wrap my head around the NSA angle on all this. i get all the points about academics taking shortcuts or publishing nonsense. im not seeing the government conspiracy though
asciilifeform: i.e. to know what MUST be told to all, but not to reveal.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, let's think about it together, then.
mircea_popescu: 1. research, as a proper item ( http://trilema.com/2017/is-it-still-rape-if-i-write-science-on-my-penis-first/ ) died sometime at the onset of the socialist state. 2. the socialist state isn't willing to admit it will never ever do anything useful intellectually again, sets out to "reproduce" the results of science through what it understands of the method. 3. this in due time creates the "bologna system" of grants and so on.
mircea_popescu: 4. at some juncture, some dood is sitting on a bale of freshly printed newspaper clippings ^H^H moeny, and has to distribute it.
mircea_popescu: since there is no ~possibility~ of rational merit in the deluge of proposals coming his way and no method allowing him to distinguish between sokal items and science, would it take much for his decision process to become political ?
mircea_popescu: and once it's political, everyone wants in. "publish this because special-interest-group-x wants more stuff like it".
mircea_popescu: there's no need of conspiracy ; just the normal working of ambitious stupidity.
zx2c4: oh
zx2c4: yes, certain topics are trendy
zx2c4: and certain topics help you keep academic positions
zx2c4: and certain topics lead to getitng large grants
mircea_popescu: i am not limiting the discussion to "Trendy". some items are useful to special-interest-group-women-are-people ; some other items are useful to special-interest-group-no-research-in-nsa-subersions-plox and so on
asciilifeform: and certain topics are 'trendy' and get grants but only for so long as you walk the unwritten line and 1) do NOT publish result 2) best of all do not even do the experiment, lest the result somehow leak out
mircea_popescu: there's lots of these.
zx2c4: the conspiratorial element in all this would be if, like, the NSA secretly funds academic research in fields it knows to be nonsense, so as to waste the time of otherwise productive people?
mircea_popescu: other than this being well documented already...
mircea_popescu: what the fuck do you expect going to work for nsa is, other than "sit here and waste the rest of your life quietly lest the terorists get hold of you and give you something actually useful to do" ?
zx2c4: alright so im just wondering why you think nadia and alex's research falls into a category like that, when they're essentially drawing the same conclusions as your own work (even if they didnt release rawdata as you say etc)
mircea_popescu: every empire is invested principally in a maintenance of the statu quo.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: the fraudulent content-free publications of supposed 'results' consisting of 'we broke 9000 keys last year, but no we won't say which keys and what the divisors are' are smoke screen, plain and simple.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-30 18:21 mircea_popescu: in front of this, whether we idly decide that he's just dumb or actually evil, ie, his brain dun work like in the case of say bernstein ; or his brain doth work, but he deliberately attempts to shannonize republican words into imperial outcomes, a la curtis yarvin, jwz, whatever.... well what fucking difference does it make.
asciilifeform: specifically to ~prevent~ folx such as zx2c4 from hearing about e.g. phuctor, or other actual attempts at experiment, and if they hear -- from taking seriously. 'boeck did it in 2007' 'but did he publish a divisor?' 'uhhhh'
mircea_popescu: they're not "drawing the same conclusions". they're simply trying the equivalent of google keyword stuffing. "hey, maybe if i publish machine-generated pages with words people search for i'll be able to sell traffic"
zx2c4: ohhh!
zx2c4: gotcha
zx2c4: why does the government have an interest in me hearing about nadia's work rather than your work?
mircea_popescu: in general your government has an interest in you not talking to me, yes. or to anyone else, if at all possible ; and if not possible then ~not in any meaningful way~.
zx2c4: "theyre trying to cover up the divisors!" isnt really a compelling reason
mircea_popescu: your government basically exists out of, and depends upon, you needing it to interface the world for you.
mircea_popescu: much like any other religion.
mircea_popescu: the more you need to be "protected" and "be given just the facts" and so on, the more need for socialism.
zx2c4: and you think that since you've "thought your way out" of the paradigm, you're a threat and so the government has an interest in having people avoid you? kill socrates because he corrupts the young?
asciilifeform: zx2c4: take very concrete case, of the debian keys. i.e. a nsa-planted 'bug'. it was very concretely in the nsa interest to prevent public euclidization , would have revealed the 'bug' immediately.
mircea_popescu: or w/e, catholicism, shamanism, wha have you.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, i don't think the usg is capable of representing me at all.
mircea_popescu: think back to your original problem, "wtf terrorism".
zx2c4: asciilifeform: arent there some commit logs that show where the debian bug comes from? i honestly cant remember
mircea_popescu: there's very limited capacity for understanding the world in complex systems. kinda why they fail.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: your null hypothesis is defective.
zx2c4: doesnt it seem like an awful amount of work an effort just to make your work disappear and have people not talk to you?
zx2c4: or do you think it's not actually directly targeted at you but rather a systemic thing
zx2c4: where resources funnel to those who do things most benignly?
mircea_popescu: i thought it was obvios enough it's the latter neh.
asciilifeform: no moar effort than trees expend effort to grow.
zx2c4: asciilifeform: whats a null hypthesis
zx2c4: +o
asciilifeform: zx2c4: well, you seem to see the burden of proof, on asciilifeform , to show that debiankeys , or e.g. heartbleed, was a work of nsa plant
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, in statistics, it's the universal "no relevance" ; in practice, this must be translated to meaning.
mircea_popescu: he is saying your translation to meaning is biased.
asciilifeform: so your null hypothesis is to believe the perpetrators of said crimes, 'honest! it was accident! nevermind that it walks and quacks like nsa bug'
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: oh. so. "the world doesnt care about the cool hackers on the internet, but only the assholes with prestigious positions." this has been a widely known complaint for a long time
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, a) it is not a complaint b) seeing how i'm the one with all the money and all the rapes, i can scarcely conceive what "the world" even is.
mircea_popescu: what world is this, iyo, that's not me and of me ? the squalor of shard dorms ? the plastic cubical farms ? what exactly ?
mircea_popescu: what exactly is prestigious outside of my rating it, i don't get it ? you imagine i even for a second see the people eating rubber chicken at conferences above the prostitutes i don't bother to talk to at strip clubs ? why the fuck would i roflmao.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: don't forget, also world of the general's wives, with voices like unoiled door hinges, and backtalk! how can you not envy!111 the respectable people!11111
mircea_popescu: cuz they're poor, sad and stupid ? i dunno...
zx2c4: re:null - its one thing to make claims about how systemic shifts happen. these are usually compelling arguments and interesting, and usually not conspiratorial but still relevant. but when you argue about a *particular* *conspiracy* -- "the debian bug was nsa sabotage" -- now there's a much harder argument to make, because you're talking about some individual @debian.org guy being complicit in one way or another, and he's a human
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, the debian bug was a nsa plant is neitehr controversial nor requires any conspiracy.
zx2c4: lets say you pull the commit log and you see that dkg@debian.org committed it
zx2c4: so then we go and ask dkg
zx2c4: and he's like, "yea, im an idiot..."
mircea_popescu: !!key dkg
deedbot: Not registered.
zx2c4: and then what?
mircea_popescu: i'm not asking plebs anything. other than perhaps to get in the wot and do their log reading.
zx2c4: now you can either believe that it was an honest mistake
mircea_popescu: you understand this, dkg is ~not capable~ of saying things.
mircea_popescu: i do not believe he can speak.
zx2c4: or you can believe that he's covering things up
zx2c4: [ftr, i have no idea who committed the bug or if theres even a commit log]
zx2c4: if you believe he's covering it up,
zx2c4: then you get to know the guy,
zx2c4: you become best buds, let's say
zx2c4: he's bestman at your wedding
zx2c4: godfather to your first born child
zx2c4: on his deathbed, you ask him
mircea_popescu: jesus christ. re-do this conversation with a six year old girl instead of dkg. "she either enjoyed it or she lied." motherfucker! SHE IS NOT ABLE TO SPEAK.
zx2c4: "NSA tell you to plant that bug?"
zx2c4: he denies it
zx2c4: you still believe he's lying. in that case, you're really asserting something quite big
mircea_popescu: what am i going to do with this guy.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-04 00:42 mircea_popescu: so while pretty much every adult romanian saw at least one (often enough in the shape of, hey, do you know this guy you've been frioends for 30 years with, since chiuldhood ? well he was trying to fuck your wife and get you imprisoned), apparently there's a NOFORN clause implicit or something, 0 internets.
zx2c4: haha sorry
zx2c4: anyway, the only point im making with this extended debian example is that it's one thing to point to systemic societal shifts and tendencies. its quite another to make a claim about a particular individual and their deceptions. some people are deceptive. others aren't. but it's not a conclusion you can ever jump to trivially
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yeah, the experience of the bitter fruits of socialism is always so inadherent to they inebriated by the flowers.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, not a matter of trivially. what i say has a lot of power, such as to end careers, research lines etcetera.
mircea_popescu: this is why i'm somebody and ten thousand fake media shills are essentially gloves.
asciilifeform: zx2c4: as a matter of fact, is IS a conclusion i can jump to trivially. because your supposed 'person' is actually a nameless cockroach beneath my feet. because he is not in the wot, and thereby not distinguishable from the 90000..+ faux 'humans' usg manufactures on daily basis to further its psyops.
mircea_popescu: i suppose he wasn't here for the gavin beheading, imagines the usg can even protect its agents or something like that.
zx2c4: asciilifeform: that quote from mircea_popescu you just pasted is interesting. i didnt know ceausescu did so much "political policing". i dont think i have any experience living in a society like that
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, are you aware some mit schmuck was "in charge of bitcoin" "left by satoshi" and then i said he'd better get lost and then he was kicked off like so much flotsam ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: evidently he also slept through boeck's week-long shilling for craig wright, followed by 'unhappening', or would at least start scratching head when prodded
mircea_popescu: well, "the world" didn't hear "just the facts" about that, either. so...
mircea_popescu: but yes, zx2c4 : there are heuristics which do make human work easier. and it is the tell tale of a made agent, that he gets sent on garbage missions.
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: wait what? an mit dude had satoshi's bitcoins but you told him to get lost and now he's disappeared?
mircea_popescu: (made, in case you also weren't there for the berlin games, means to have been spotted.)
asciilifeform: zx2c4: the society you actually live in, makes ceaucescu's look like refreshing paradise of straight-talk
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, that's not what i said is it ?
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: im really not parsing that sentence
mircea_popescu: ok, well, let's just say there's a lot of history you don't know.
zx2c4: (zx2c4 is a sophisticated chatbot but sometimes his neural network trainings are constrained)
mircea_popescu: the only new thing in the world, right ?
asciilifeform: zx2c4: remember when 'big blocks'(tm)(r) were 'definitely happening any day'(tm)(r) ?
mircea_popescu: !!up phf
deedbot: phf voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: and then suddenly not ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i dun imagine he was much following bitcoin prior to his sudden realisation that it can do things.
asciilifeform: hm, likely.
phf: freenodes..
mircea_popescu: how's the saltmines.
phf: err diana_coman ^
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: okay lets say there's a lot of history i dont know and that there are only new things in the world?
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, "there are no new things in this world besides the history you do not know" is a somewhat famous quip.
zx2c4: oh that what you meant to say
mircea_popescu: ever heard it before ?
zx2c4: yea sure
zx2c4: clasic american quote
mircea_popescu: alright. so let's just say there's a lot of history you do not know.
mircea_popescu: this, of course, isn't a crime. but it can readily account for diversity of oppinion.
phf: the mines are consistent: when left to their own devices, they slowly crumble, supports go, and men "unexpectedly!!1" die in a periodic collapse. i come back, i bark, triage the victims, assign a team on rebuilding the supports
zx2c4: mircea_popescu: indeed
mircea_popescu: phf, well, sounds like you're having fun then!
zx2c4: im surprised, by the way, to see asciilifeform's claim that communist romania was a picnic compared to modern america. why havent i ever experenced this?
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, why don't you realise b was better than a when your experience of b is mediated by the items that produced a ?
mircea_popescu: i couldn't tell you!
asciilifeform: zx2c4: ever so much as set foot outside of nato reich ?
asciilifeform: or read in lang other than engl?
zx2c4: yes & yes
asciilifeform: then even moar puzzling.
asciilifeform: most amerireich victims at least have the excuse of complete ignorance of the outside of their velveeta-civilization.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, anyway ; his argument is principally that they were straight talking. which is true, the difference between stalin-socialism and roosevelt-socialism is strictly that the cripple shunned straight talk ; whereas the bank robber reveled in it.
mircea_popescu: some people, given the choice of eating shit and being lied about it or eating shit and being told they're eating shit prefer the latter.
asciilifeform: ( the moar 'advanced' ameri-victims will perhaps have been to some place where they watched hairy bedouins fuck camels, from safe distance, and thereby 'understood' that the reich is the only possible home for a civilized and refined soul such as themselves )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, that visual is the more amusing if one actually ever rode a camel. the animal is large.
zx2c4: asciilifeform: hahahah
mircea_popescu: i dunno anyone ever tried to fuck it, in preference of say fucking the toilet seat hole.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have seen and touched camel and esp. revel in the absurdity of the picture
mircea_popescu: maybe the idea comes from their (somewhat rare habit) of copulating lying down rather than standing.
mircea_popescu: zx2c4, what's your experience of commie ro anyway ?
asciilifeform: zx2c4: the logs countain a thousand examples. e.g. most americans are convinced that they can buy and drink milk in the corner shop ( they cannot, they buy 'ultrapasteurized' rubbish that tastes nothing like actual milk) ; that they live in 'nice house' ( they live in equiv of movie set, made of matchsticks, that falls over when first serious gust of wind ), that ... i could go on for a week and not even scratch the surface
asciilifeform: the moar advanced specimens also seem to think that they have academics who 'do research', judges who 'dispense justice', army which 'wins wars', etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, you should see all the tmsr-wannabe stuff emanating from the usarmy "dept of research", by the way. it's all about "network centric" technologees such as fighting bots with ethical ethics and whatnot. one helluva riot.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: with 'blockchain consensuses', betcha, also!
asciilifeform: or is that last yr's rubbish.
mircea_popescu: kinda. no, it';s more about how "great idea to have robots in combined arms with humans -- they can tattletale!!!"
asciilifeform: the robo-politruk, last hoap of ze empire
mircea_popescu: such luzly cluelessness as to how to win a war, it's possibly the prime field of ustardian bogonism. i mean... they can;'t program computers, sure. but at least the computer doesn't shoot you for being an idiot.
asciilifeform: 'not even dumbest bloke will stand for what we are; clearly we need robot'
asciilifeform: i for one can't wait for the DAO-connected-to-rockets
mircea_popescu: i imagine they'll be kinda happy once dead. finally, relieved from all these burdens too great, the embarassment of existence.
asciilifeform: ( if it happens tonight, it ain't a day too soon )
mircea_popescu: apparently they've not earned nirvana just yet.
asciilifeform: coincidentally, jump of www traffic on dulap in past half hr.
asciilifeform: ( somebody rousted the hamster hill ? i've nfi )
mircea_popescu: did you get it back to churning ?
asciilifeform: no, or we couldn't hear ourselves speak, lol
asciilifeform: but site remains browsable.
mircea_popescu: ok, but this isn't also going to take weeks is it ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought lobbes went off to write a proggy, neh
asciilifeform: iirc i described all of the 'fast' pills i could think of, already.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 15:40 mircea_popescu: it seems to me ridiculous to a degree bordering on infantilism that it is "impossible" to get the data out after being so complexly massaged into utility ; but be that as it may, let phuctor run and report on its website, the interested will try and sift through whatever it publishes on their own time.
asciilifeform: oook so let's signal trinque to switch off feed for nao ?
mircea_popescu: alternatively you can just 404 the /rss
asciilifeform: but then i could not myself read it!111
asciilifeform actually reads it. all of it.
mircea_popescu: uh. fine, fine.
mircea_popescu: trinque, de-follow phuctor rss when you have a minute ?
asciilifeform: i'ma then feed in the rest of Framedragger's collection; by the time trinque wakes up, oughta be ready to fire.
mircea_popescu: and jurov's, also ?
asciilifeform: jurov's afterwards .
asciilifeform: and after that, we can do e.g. sks refresh.
mircea_popescu: not to be forgotten about , though, dood's done some excellent work for it.
asciilifeform: https://archive.li/RoYHH << current snapshot of stats, for comparison later.
mircea_popescu: exciting times.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 03:55 asciilifeform: also a 32cpu/1mil shots/key fermatron is running
asciilifeform: ( thus far reported just the same 2 outputs as in summer of '16 )
asciilifeform took the expected day or 2 of pause, chance, to run fermat
asciilifeform: can't let the delish iron, go to waste.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I can come up with a number, but I would like to see a proposal coming from the board that covers a year and moves away from the month to month shoot from the hip approach. A big part of the appeal of submitting to management was outsourcing the worry allocation. Even if it takes a week or two, seeing the board work through the process of putting an offer together so I don't have to stress over assembling an offer. Now
BingoBoingo: that there are numbers which we didn't have in February it would be a great comfort generally to see the board coming forward with plans, however rough, that at least expand out to a year.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809223 << The cinches seem to be a rather solved problem at this point. Since the Cowork bathroom stopped being a viable location for banging, picking up a hotelroom one night every 8-9 days has helped the morale. I can continue the hostel life for quite some time. The bigger morale hit is... the lack of pocket money and the lack of a clear future where there is more pocket money. Room in the budget to
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 16:47 ben_vulpes: mod6 asciilifeform: i dun object; pizarro needs a better foundation than a writhing pile of chinches. i'd like to get a flat down there; this can consolidate the housing and desk expenses and provide i expect much needed moral uplift.
BingoBoingo: do shit like buy pants that fit without feeling pressured to itemize the expense would be appreciated. A proposal with less leibenstraum could also be acceptable if it includes lump sum payments for hitting certain milestones.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809228 << Water heater, all of the furnishings, several kinds of deposits. From there a flat incurs utility bills and "gastos communes" monthly. Then there is the matter of whether it is Pizarro's apartment of Bingo's apartment. I am also a bit apprehensive about personally signing yet another 24 month contract totaling in the 5 figure USD range while so much of Pizarro is still being done on a month
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 16:47 ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: i recall many sticking points around the flat; wouldja enumerate? water heater, previous flatrental...?
BingoBoingo: to month basis.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: how close is the magic personhood card with which to incorporate ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: A couple weeks out, Target date to have it in hand is the 16th barring any surprises
asciilifeform: as for numbers, ben_vulpes are you still missing anything ? to make the end-of-april report
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: as soon as he coughs up the april statement ( containing, recall,actual revenue ) i will insist on a discussion of concrete plan to get BingoBoingo into proper flat and into non-itemized regular swap of pants.
mod6: chinches = bedbugs?
mod6: BingoBoingo: what do you mean by 'leibenstraum'?
asciilifeform: mod6: presumably, lebensraum
mod6: doesnt parse for mod6
asciilifeform: lit. 'space for life'
mod6: Look, I would apprciate if we can use plain language, no spanglish, no whatever flower-y things. I just need to read-once, parse-once.
asciilifeform: mod6: d00d is stewing in own juices in the barracks, surrounded by screeching monkeys
asciilifeform: would like a place to live, where the door closes, like you and i have.
mod6: Lol, oh yeah, i hear ya. I'm not disputing the need for a 'flat' or whatever, just trying to make sure I understand these points being made.
asciilifeform: i think mod6 understands.
mod6: And by all means, use whatever language in #trilema; I'm referring to when discussing pizarro proposals with me in particular. Too many mental gymnastics otherwise.
asciilifeform: mod6: feel entirely free to say, whenever you must, 'this makes 0 sense, gotta concretize'
asciilifeform: and i will personally concretize ( and perhaps be corrected by others, but at any rate will try )
BingoBoingo: screeching monkeys are more like a one weekend out of every two sort of deal. I stress more over decisions like "when am I going to replace my pants (all of them) with ones that fit?"
mod6: You shouldn't have to do this.
asciilifeform: mod6: theoretically i 'shouldn't have to' lug 100kg of iron in a cart across 2 continents, but sometimes gotta do things 'shouldn't have to', lol
mod6: I'm simply saying, you should not have to translate for men who already 'speak' english.
asciilifeform: ideally.
asciilifeform: at any rate, i'ma let folx do own speaking, iirc i already made clear own position.
mod6: Anyway, I'm all for it if we think we can make it work.
mod6: But maybe some details are in order.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes's report, for one.
mod6: Yup, exactly.
mod6: 2) What is BB spending that is not recorded.
mod6: 3) How much is /entire/ cost of flat, bla bla.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: my current understanding is that it is simply your 'shore leaves' in hotel ? am i right ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: it is
mod6: hotel or hostel?
BingoBoingo: Once every 8 or 9 days
asciilifeform: mod6: girls won't go into hostel...
mod6: what is a 'shore leaves' ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: plox to describe, for edification of mod6 , the exact procedure.
mod6: I'm totally clueless here, you'll have to forgive me.
mod6: You're saying, every eight or nine days, you need to get a hotel room to bang some girls.
mod6: Got it. Just say that next time, jeeze.
asciilifeform: !Q later tell mircea_popescu i realized nao that if i fire up the thing as described, we won't have the hostnames. they are are (currently) trinque-produced.
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
mod6: Wasting 3 minutes of my time to ponder that is kinda .. exactly what I'm saying.
asciilifeform: mod6: BingoBoingo devoted a great deal of space to the subj in own www and in the logs, i assumed , imho justifiably, that you knew.
BingoBoingo: <mod6> what is a 'shore leaves' ? << At some point, usually 7 days after the last bang session the peruana starts to feel abandoned and to keep her available I have to find a place to bang her out. For a while the Cowork bathrooms were adequate for this purpose, but after one particularly energetic night/morning using the Cowork bathrooms for exercise became untenable. And people at the hostel gotta sleep. Thusly on day 8 or 9 I get a
BingoBoingo: hotel room, and the Peruana and I get to work on improving morale.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809491 << from experience the (complete) cost for a http://trilema.com/2010/doua-fete-argumentul-economic/ locus, ie, 2/3 bedroom apt, is somewhere around 8-9k/year. notrly reaching into five figures, is it ?
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 18:04 BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809228 << Water heater, all of the furnishings, several kinds of deposits. From there a flat incurs utility bills and "gastos communes" monthly. Then there is the matter of whether it is Pizarro's apartment of Bingo's apartment. I am also a bit apprehensive about personally signing yet another 24 month contract totaling in the 5 figure USD range while so much of Pizarro is still being done on a month
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: Sent 1 minute ago: <asciilifeform> i realized nao that if i fire up the thing as described, we won't have the hostnames. they are are (currently) trinque-produced.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: your figure is approx correct, based on various 'find a flat' www that BingoBoingo had found.
mircea_popescu: i didn't expect it moved much in the interval.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Here they like to stretch the lease to 24 or 36 months. The fifth figure comes from figuring the full contract length.
asciilifeform: supposedly, for low 5fig one can even purchase outright a building in that town.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: BingoBoingo devoted a great deal of space to the subj in own www and in the logs, i assumed , imho justifiably, that you knew. << I did hear about a 'girl', which I was happy to hear! I just didn't know what 'shore leaves' was. Had to do 3 minutes of gymnastics. This is about comms with mod6.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, yeah but i mean, i paid quarterly as a rule, and it was exceptional. they generally do monthly payments. the wisdom of doing 3 year lump sum payments to spanish speaking peoples is debatable in any case.
asciilifeform: mod6: i'ma put ' to be very concrete! with mod6 ! ' on my chalkboard
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, it would not be inconceivable either pizarro or nsa buys some real estate in that town, i guess.
mod6: When discussing business decisions, indeed, this would be great. I'm pretty thick, you see.
mod6: Picture in my mind... when I read 'shore leaves', I start taking that literally, like 'oh, he went to BA?! nice! How come he didn't say so?!?!?!', etc etc.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809504 << it's a reference to german colonialism. basically, "settlement allowance" or w/e.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 18:18 mod6: Look, I would apprciate if we can use plain language, no spanglish, no whatever flower-y things. I just need to read-once, parse-once.
mod6: *nod*
mod6: I just prefer not to look things up if something can be said such as: "hey, the cocksuckers are cramping my style, need some space between myself and them"
mod6: lot less mystery there.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Right, been burned on the advanced payments here before. Just looking at the total sum of things.
mod6: deep breaths mod6, deep breaths.
mircea_popescu: they do at-will rentals anyway. the term is enforceable against the owner ; not so much the tenant. anyway.
mod6: brb
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 18:30 asciilifeform: !Q later tell mircea_popescu i realized nao that if i fire up the thing as described, we won't have the hostnames. they are are (currently) trinque-produced.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what i really ought to do, arguably, is look'em up and retro-diddle the Framedragger keys' userstrings in the db . ~however~ this would change their hash ! and break all the old links.
asciilifeform: so kinda stuck in re subj.
mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure what the contention is here at all. the "hey, we're paying ~same for current arrangement as apt would cost" point was, i thought, thoroughly resolved with http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1808553 convo yest.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 02:38 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, the reason it was done this way originally was not a price consideration but forced societal insertion.
asciilifeform: trinque had kindly let me 'cheat' by using the logs as the tool to find the hostnames, to date...
BingoBoingo: <mod6> I just prefer not to look things up if something can be said such as: "hey, the cocksuckers are cramping my style, need some space between myself and them" << As mentioned, I have the hostel side of that rather settled. My immediate concern is pants. That will be followed by something else reaching the end of its service life, etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, just ignore it. eventually the data will have to be prettified. when someone has the time.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aite, will throw the switch when trinque gives the signal, then.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i proposed +10% as concretely 'flat AND pants'-enabling figure. plox to correct if by your reckoning it is not so.
asciilifeform: ( considering that a fairly decent flat can be had ~already~ for cost of the cowork desk + fleapit )
asciilifeform: as i recall the obstacle was, however, that BingoBoingo would have to front a month of its cost ? or what was it
mircea_popescu: that takes him then to what, (570 +311 +620)*1.1 ? ie, marginally costing more than the dc ?
asciilifeform: 1800+180==1980
asciilifeform: less than dc by fat chunk.
mircea_popescu: well, considering from experience few locals have even half that to play with, should make survival possible.
mircea_popescu banged plenty of what locally counted for middle class gals who nevertheless maintained the pretense on 5-600 a month.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: did they have physical digs, tho, or only pretense
mircea_popescu: raised fucking children, are you kidding me ?
mircea_popescu: middle class, you know ? it's a thing.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> well, considering from experience few locals have even half that to play with, should make survival possible. << The locals have their parents and grandparents to live with.
asciilifeform: well eritreans raise children on $0 and fingernail dirt, so that dun tell us much. but i can picture.
mircea_popescu: sure, wasn't bringing some kind of argument.
mircea_popescu: to quote one of barry fitzgerald's best roles (the naked city) : "Fifty bucks!"
trinque: asciilifeform: optionally I can aim this at you, just like mircea_popescu's trilema comments
asciilifeform: trinque: oh hey, that'd be useful
asciilifeform: can haz ?
trinque: sure
mircea_popescu: oh and a spiffy thing that is indeed! i'm like an eagle with my comments now.
asciilifeform: i'ma post the full barfology in the end, then , on own www
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, trinque this works.
asciilifeform: very , very spiffy , trinque , i am impressed that this exists
asciilifeform: let it shoot.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, feel free to even quote the choicier bits in the logs. the only problem is the wall, really.
asciilifeform: will do.
mircea_popescu: in the end we came up with a wetware replacement for having to write python wrappers for sql. GO A TEAM!
asciilifeform: however if no one objects i will re-enable crunching tomorrow morning, after fermat is expected to be finished.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, works.
asciilifeform: ( incidentally , fermat is great 'torture test' for the box, ~100% cpu utilization for days. )
trinque: asciilifeform: done, shall barf via pm from now on
asciilifeform: ty trinque !
asciilifeform: is it possible to put in more than 1 nick ? ( anybody else wants to subscribe ..? )
asciilifeform: or am i overbending the stick here
trinque: could, but the thing is dumb and shall hit your rss once per person
asciilifeform: trinque: this is a-ok, it it cached.
asciilifeform: costs us 0.
trinque: doesn't bother me then, folks can let me know if they want to receive.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 17:27 phf: http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/04/17/rfc-euloras-communication-protocol-eucomms/#comment-1166 << responded, but stuck in the approval queue
lobbes: Phew. Now I can focus on getting trb node up this weekend (hit some barfs last night when building, will post details tonight). Also, logbot-based tickerbot is getting closer (tm) to existing  >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809600
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 18:52 mircea_popescu: in the end we came up with a wetware replacement for having to write python wrappers for sql. GO A TEAM!
mircea_popescu: lobbes, word.
lobbes ended up getting a cheap dedi out in kansas or w/e for 25 bezzlebux. Soley for trb-ing. Drawback is it has hdd, but going to try and use the aggressive pushgetblocks patch. Seems like diana_coman had nice results with similar experimentation
asciilifeform: lobbes, other trbists : another thing that worx, is the combo of pizarro node piped through a cheapo heathen relay-only box.
asciilifeform: ( e.g. ssh tunnel )
diana_coman: lobbes, indeed; pushgetblocks patch seems to keep hdd node at the top without any problem
asciilifeform: ( you still get the down side of 'N nodes hanging off a single mains supply' but avoid the hit of 'N nodes in single ip blok' )
a111: Logged on 2018-05-03 19:29 asciilifeform experimentally ordered , from shitazon, a qty of jumper cables for connection of FG to rockchippen, to be mailed to BingoBoingo , claims they will be received by may the 10th
asciilifeform: ^ claims delivery guarantee of may the 7th. if this worx, then it is a viable means of getting (small/inexpensive) items into BingoBoingo's orbit.
asciilifeform: ( trick was, only some % of subcontractors of shitazon, will ship abroad, had to find via brute force, which ones )
asciilifeform: for some reason there is no public list or anything of the sort.
asciilifeform: you can click on an item and 'add to cart' and 19 times out of 20 will get simple eggog when 'ship to $bbaddr'
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i expect mechanical-disk nodes will fall behind again if usg 'stress test of blocks' were to resume.
asciilifeform: https://archive.li/WElit << meanwhile in other usg.noose.
asciilifeform: 'ight new security flaws in Intel CPUs' etc.
mircea_popescu: yeah, they lost that whole thing. intel's getting cisco'd.
ben_vulpes: what do y'all use for summing big lists of bitcoin values?
ben_vulpes: i'm sitting here getting float errors out of everything but my pad of paper
trinque: postgres "numeric" type
trinque: with the precision set to the appropriate range
ben_vulpes: !!up candi_lustt
deedbot: candi_lustt voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: !W (- 9.15831827 0.399861)
candi_lustt: ben_vulpes: 8.758457
ben_vulpes: well that only looks correct because of truncation, sbcl locally sez '8.75863727'
ben_vulpes now hand-summing numbers
ben_vulpes: of course satoshi had to pick a number of decimals guaranteed to break everything in the world.
trinque: could fire up a maxima
trinque: or use the python "Decimal" type, with strings passed to constructor
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i add in sbcl and round in the end by hand as taught in kindergarten
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i'm getting demonstrably wrong numbers out of sbcl when subtracting
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: mighty interesting, will have to say moar when you have time
ben_vulpes: see the line i sent to candi_lustt just a moment ago
trinque: ben_vulpes: are you using format on the output?
trinque: recall I saw this with the deedbot wallet? type is too small
ben_vulpes: i have a (setf *read-default-float-format* 'double-float) in my .sbclrc
ben_vulpes: and no, unformatted, returning values to the repl
mircea_popescu: trinque> with the precision set to the appropriate range << this is the important part.
trinque: ben_vulpes: hm dunno then.
ben_vulpes: trinque: the error reproduces in the ios "pcalc" but not in the google calculator
ben_vulpes: genuinely thought that i had forgotten my kindergarten subtraction algorithms for a moment
mircea_popescu: i get 8.75845727 amusingly enough. echo "9.15831827-0.399861" | bc
mircea_popescu: maybe your sbcl is brokt ?
asciilifeform: mine matches his
asciilifeform: and i even suspect the reason
trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/GI4Ir/?raw=true << why they can pry sql from my cold dead hands
trinque: isn't a programming environment sure, batshit language, yes, but all *these* sorts of problems were worn off by the flow of industry over the surface
mircea_popescu: even more amusingly : diana_coman spent the past two days working with floats. not entirely unrelated problems.
ben_vulpes: hey trinque wouldja share your definition for bitcoin_amount
ben_vulpes: next month this all goes into a database
ben_vulpes: fancy spreadsheet, i mean
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i suspect that sbcl uses 'iron' (ieee) floats by default, rather than rational arithmetic, and therefore produces garbage
asciilifeform: ( Just Say No to machine floats )
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: interesting
ben_vulpes: trinque: yup makes sense
mircea_popescu: i can do his one better : select '9.15831827' - '0.399861' produces "8.758457270000001".
ben_vulpes: what is better about this?
phf: !!up candi_lustt
deedbot: candi_lustt voiced for 30 minutes.
phf: !W (coerce (- (+ 9 15831827/100000000) (+ 0 399861/1000000)) 'double-float)
candi_lustt: phf: 8.75845727d0
ben_vulpes rubs hands excitedly
ben_vulpes: aight, so i'm an uncivilized turd.
phf: i don't know what they did in sbcl that it gives 8.75863727 locally, but with double float cmucl gives 8.758457270000001 and with double-double-float it's 8.75845727w0
asciilifeform: phf: any idea how to make it ditch the whole machinefloat nonsense in favour of troo arithmetic ?
asciilifeform: ( it still boggles my mind that anybody, at any point, ever thought that creating an arithmetron that outputs answers which are at variance with kindergarten/napkin, is somehow acceptable )
a111: Logged on 2017-06-08 16:14 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-08#1667112 << i'd like to be rid of the floating point
a111: Logged on 2017-08-30 13:15 asciilifeform: ( ieee floats are in effect a demented, drooling integer stack which ~pseudorandomly skips bits )
a111: Logged on 2016-04-07 17:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: easy, just don't use the idiot ieee float
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/05/argentine-interest-rates-hit-40-as-argentine-peso-continues-freefall/ << Qntra - Argentine Interest Rates Hit 40% As Argentine Peso Continues Freefall
BingoBoingo: ^ ben_vulpes mod6 asciilifeform I have proposed a start for negotiations on a compensation package through February 2019 for your consideration here: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/#fn1-1909
BingoBoingo: Take your time, do math, and come up with a counter offer.
ben_vulpes: thanks BingoBoingo
ben_vulpes: could i possibly induce you to set up a bouncer on the shared machine so i can tabcomplete your name after you close your laptop?
asciilifeform: oh hey hey hey lbj !
ben_vulpes emerges into sunlight, blinks
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the numbers-of-customers are 'on top of existing' or 'incl existing' ?
asciilifeform: ( in the last table )
ben_vulpes: including existing
asciilifeform: ok then i dun get it : from the equation it would seem that the , e.g., 36 colo, means 'if nothing else existed, 36 colos would be needed, at current price, to add up to $burn'
asciilifeform: and ditto for the other params
ben_vulpes: updooted for clarity.
ben_vulpes: right, that's exactly it.
asciilifeform brb,meat
ben_vulpes: mk well let me know what doesn't make sense at your leisure
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Sorry about the join/parts. I will put a bouncer on the punch list. Moved the terminal to do some relaxed balcony computing only to discover this weekend's crowd is a bunch of non-verbal retards here for some sort of convention.
BingoBoingo: If they could communicate, the would probably try insisting they are merely deaf but their movement patterns and posturing betray deficits beyond hearing loss.
ben_vulpes: heh you know precisely what i'm actually bitching about
mod6: ugh that was brutal. nothing says "friday afternoon" like an impromptu VLAN renumbering.
mod6: ben_vulpes: thanks for the posting of the April Report!
mod6: Question for ya: Is the depreciation (monthly) of UY2 really 0.33333333 ? Or maybe is supposed to be 0.03333333 ?
mod6: Also, in your first table (nitpick) : s/S.NG/S.MG/
asciilifeform: it actually isn't clear to me how these depreciate
asciilifeform: ( ... are we talking about mechanical wear ? or something else ? )
ben_vulpes: mod6: ah that's correct
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: it's an accounting practice; we could in theory only depreciate the SSDs and hold the machines onthebooks forever to reflect your view that the iron doesn't actually lose value.
ben_vulpes: this is very much not standard practice tho, and imho better to show a conservative estimate of what assets are (losing value month by month) than to inflate possibly controversially the valance sheet
asciilifeform: the answer to this q doesn't really affect the most interesting numbers in the report tho.
ben_vulpes: no not really, it's more interesting later on in the trajectory "revenues on assets of whatever"
ben_vulpes: but go on about the numbers that interest you
mod6: Oh, on the good side today! I went to that .ua place again for a fantastic ruben... and bought some of their sweet italian sausages, and smoked cheddarworst.
mod6: lol, overall, a push I suppose.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 20:12 ben_vulpes: what is better about this?
asciilifeform: i am making a wwwistic calculator thing, ben_vulpes ; do you have the price table (usd) and current # of subscribers for each type, handy ?
asciilifeform: or do i gotta recompute from the available #s
mircea_popescu: the valance sheet << i like this.
mircea_popescu: 1.18283607 / 1.58269707 not even terribru
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, it's also terrible practice that i read "tooling" and then "zip ties" and "llave". srsly now, put them all in tooling and ((enum)) if need be.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, more shockingly, can you explain how the hell you folks posted a 0.55620116 ebidta gain this period ? i mean i get it, sold .4 worth of equity ; but the rest ?!
mircea_popescu: also, seeing how 13.86965669 != 13.81965669 your books aren't balanced. wtf happened ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, you're confusing the concept of par value for shares (which is 0.00001 considering you issued 1.1mn on 11 btc capital) with book value per share, a different item.
mircea_popescu: ah, the rest because you booked some yearly contracts, i see, i see.
mircea_popescu: prolly should look into the concept of "unearned income". technically money you were paid for services you've not yet rendered belongs to the customers' equity line.
ben_vulpes: i gotta step away for a spell but will come back and address
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6 , mircea_popescu , et al : http://www.loper-os.org/pub/piz_tab.html << corrections of central column or other init params, welcome
asciilifeform: ( and yes i converted FG price to usd, to match the units of the other params )
asciilifeform: the param 'target' and the params in leftmost and center columns, are editable, will trigger recalc of equation
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: feel free to copy this item onto piz www if you think it merits.
mircea_popescu: seems broken in here lessee...
asciilifeform: it needs js wwwbrowser
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, https://archive.is/LAZOH << so you need 144, got 4 and need 29 more ?
asciilifeform: 144 is price in usd
asciilifeform: (144.444...)
asciilifeform: derived from ben_vulpes table
mircea_popescu: so basically this is the recurring revenue table ?
asciilifeform: correct
asciilifeform: prolly i made a numeric mistake somewhere, will let ben_vulpes confirm
asciilifeform: but it seems to match his outputs in the degenerate cases.
asciilifeform: ( if one sets middle col to all 0 )
mircea_popescu: well, eg the s.mg box, like your largest income driver, isn't in there ?
asciilifeform: it is, under 4 colo + 4 FG
asciilifeform: i counted 4 colo people in ben_vulpes first table
mircea_popescu: box only has 2 fgs ; 1 colo spot ; box rental itself is the rest.
mircea_popescu: then there's the s.nsa box which is just 1 colo
asciilifeform: i mean, total # of colo subscribers existing presently
mircea_popescu: you have more than 2 ?
asciilifeform: s.mg, s.nsa, mod6, trinque
mircea_popescu: o wow really ? nice!
asciilifeform: again i will let ben_vulpes confirm the accuracy of my count.
mircea_popescu: then the 1.1k figure can't be right. 4 x 140 + how many fgs are rented out, at least 4 ? + s.mg box + rockchips hm... seems your true recurrent revenue is more like 2k
asciilifeform: i'm pretty sure my figure is slightly moar pessimistic than the reality
asciilifeform: because i left out 1u rental fees
asciilifeform: s.mg rents rather than owns box, and pays for this
asciilifeform: i gotta fix this
mircea_popescu: anyway, so the story here is that you have ~12% occupancy and ~20-30% revenue ?
asciilifeform: still digging for the mo. cost of the s.mg unit
mircea_popescu: sounds fab.
mircea_popescu: !Qcalc .4752 / 12
lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: 0.0396
asciilifeform: well sounds ok until realize that we gotta make a qualitative breakthrough somehow in heathendom; i suspect that l1 is tapped out
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is less, this includes 2 FG
asciilifeform: which i drew as separate param
asciilifeform: i am looking for the exact cost
mircea_popescu: how tight were the 6 rockchips packaged ? 2 u ? 1 ?
mircea_popescu: how dense can you conceivably get it to be ?
asciilifeform: (unbuilt !! yet) adult plant puts 24 in a 1u
asciilifeform: pilot plant was built to answer the -- until then, entirely open -- q of whether anyone even wants any.
mircea_popescu: if i were you folk i would very seriously be looking at geting refinanced, taking ~300 rockchips there and filling a dozen us with them.
asciilifeform: and ~quickly~. ( asciilifeform in fact drilled, tapped the holes, the night before flight , and assembled in hotel )
mircea_popescu: if you rent them out you're made.
asciilifeform: so far nobody even seems to want unit-6
asciilifeform: gotta drum up demand..
asciilifeform: and yes imho rockchip is 'ze fyootoor'(tm)
mircea_popescu: have you ever sold anything before ? the situation here isn't "no one seems to even want the last one". the situatio nis "we sold most of them"
asciilifeform: i like mircea_popescu's optimism and good spirit
mircea_popescu: business is business.
asciilifeform: the heaviest question hanging so far , i think, is the heathen question
mircea_popescu: what's a rockchip actually cost i forget ? like 30 bux + the ssd ?
asciilifeform: selling to l1 was comparatively simple
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: with disk -- ~100
mircea_popescu: im sorry, the what did it have, disk ? aha.
asciilifeform: not inclusive of the power supply
asciilifeform: it takes usb3-anythings
mircea_popescu: can you carry 300 ?
asciilifeform: current pilot are equipped with 128G flash drive ea.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they weigh 50 grams, but would absolutely have to be carried mounted inside their mount, or customs will behead
asciilifeform: ( i had to put on a quite vigorous juggling show just to get my 6 unmolested in )
asciilifeform: !Qcalc 0.050 * 300
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: 15
asciilifeform: i.e. same mass as s.mg server. but the mounts, power supplies, internal gb ethernet switches, would have to also come.
asciilifeform: ( uy customs doesn't give half a shit re anyffing 1u-shaped, apparently , regardless of internals )
asciilifeform: possibly this would extend to 2u or whatver else fits in case. the allergen is specifically 'pile of naked pcb'
asciilifeform: those -- look enuff like 'bag for sale to orcs in the sunday market' to trigger the light show.
mircea_popescu: alright then.
mircea_popescu: still sounds like it'd fit in 100 kgs.
mircea_popescu: at least now you have a driver. you want a plan, web support, and sales people to push this. you know what you're pushing at least.
asciilifeform: it quite easily could. esp. if i can get a hold of aluminum chassis.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trouble is that presently nobody seems to know anything about how to sell anything whatsoever to heathens.
asciilifeform: this will have to be fixed.
mircea_popescu: how many fgs does pizarro even have ? like 50 or so ?
asciilifeform: let's see ben_vulpes's tables:
asciilifeform: answer seems to be 29 , of last (feb) count, but 4 now installed
asciilifeform: so 25 avail.
mircea_popescu: understand, if you lease these even as low as 30/mo, your occupancy jumps to... 15%, while your revenue goes to 200%.
mircea_popescu: well... gotta do it.
asciilifeform: so far nobody's managed to provoke any interest among heathens in fg, rented or bought or etc. , afaik
mircea_popescu: nor tried to any sort of standard.
asciilifeform: possibly
asciilifeform: i spammed a buncha academitards, with the predictable silence as the output
asciilifeform: it was most depressing exercise
mircea_popescu: you're cute.
lobbes: I don't know sales, but I know heathens; I wager those rockchips will be a way easier sell than the shared hosting, for e.g.
mircea_popescu: lobbes, quite.
lobbes: Nice price point, plus the "host anything you want" angle
lobbes: Well "anything"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6 : if lobbes is interested in selling on commission, i would like him to begin asap , with your approval
asciilifeform: ditto danielpbarron or anybody else whose hands grow from correct organ and wants to step up to this mission
asciilifeform: meanwhile i will begin preparation for full scale rockchip plant.
asciilifeform: ( limited to catalogue shifting and paper design, no expenditure until board approves )
asciilifeform: *sifting
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, honestly i'd start planning for the next trip. understand the simple fact of the matter : if you manage to get pizarro 300 rockchips racked, you've produced at least a coupla bitcoin's value for it.
asciilifeform: right, incl delivery
mircea_popescu: because nobody else can get them through customs etc.
asciilifeform: these things dun deliver themselves.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, you have this problem though whereby you don't actually have WHAT to sell as it stands.
asciilifeform: rrright
asciilifeform: did not expect it so quickly, but yes.
mircea_popescu: and you don't really want to turn away the first leads ; they're usually the best in that they reproduce.
asciilifeform: aside from the shared hostings.
asciilifeform: ( still the highest-margin product , if anybody can be persuaded to buy it..)
mircea_popescu: they come with hand-rolled minimal gentoo or what was it ?
asciilifeform: they do !
mircea_popescu: ironically, the tor tulpas should be all over this :D
asciilifeform: sadly the tulpapeople are ultra-costsensitive crowd..
asciilifeform: ( afaik their world begins and ends with shitazon/vpn/etc market )
asciilifeform bbl,petting pet
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, other than catalogue sifting, write the words for the eventual kicass page.
lobbes: I would definitely be interested >> (+asciilifeform) ben_vulpes, mod6 : if lobbes is interested in selling on commission, i would like him to begin asap , with your approval
mircea_popescu: explain how it's NO intel inside ; how it's no nsa-ssh ; how etc.
mircea_popescu: lobbes, you ever sold anything before ?!
lobbes: Not really.
mircea_popescu: first time for everything, rite.
lobbes: I've had jobs where I had sales quotas way back when, but.. I hated lying
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with giving it a try ; who knows, you discover a talent -- often people don't know they're great at X thing because of the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-30#1806663 problem, all "practicians" in the field are boecks.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-30 18:21 mircea_popescu: in front of this, whether we idly decide that he's just dumb or actually evil, ie, his brain dun work like in the case of say bernstein ; or his brain doth work, but he deliberately attempts to shannonize republican words into imperial outcomes, a la curtis yarvin, jwz, whatever.... well what fucking difference does it make.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, pizarro absolutely needs a star salesman.
lobbes: I was told I was "good at selling myself, so I should do the same for their "products"". Difference was I thought all their 'products' were useless and not needed (this was a retail bank teller job)
lobbes: So I quit; went back to (then) stacking fruit at supermarket
lobbes: "Ask this old lady if she wants a credit card!!" "Ugh.. I'm sure she does not need any moar credit"
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm not trying to discourage you here.
lobbes: Anyways, I guess I'm saying I wouldn't mind trying to sell a product I actually -believe is good-
lobbes: Hey, I'm a customer myself!
mircea_popescu: word hehe. how do you like it ?
lobbes: So far so good. Going to slowly migrate all of my vps shit onto it.
lobbes: Tickerbot will also live there, once it is built. But it is great. I was up and running in no time! I dare anyone to find individualized customer on the level of Pizarro. Try it yourself and you will see immediately what I mean. They offer month-to-month if you just want to try, with discounts for quarterly payments once you feel comfortable << see? sales pitch
lobbes: Anyways, I'ma bbl
mircea_popescu: laters lel
ben_vulpes eating log
ben_vulpes: lookit lobbes, already drafting his pitch. lobbes you're ~hired
ben_vulpes: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-5-4#350180 << aah, this makes sense. a liability, effectively. so i'll hafta rework this whole thing.
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-05-04 23:45 mircea_popescu: prolly should look into the concept of "unearned income". technically money you were paid for services you've not yet rendered belongs to the customers' equity line.
ben_vulpes: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-5-4#350177 << well i checked it twice, changed something and then failed to check it again is what happened. so, must rework and restate.
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-05-04 23:37 mircea_popescu: also, seeing how 13.86965669 != 13.81965669 your books aren't balanced. wtf happened ?
mircea_popescu: minigame has a similar item, whereby the fact that players bought ECu does not immediately translate to a gain for minigame. there's >100 btc's worth sloshing around in there.
ben_vulpes: i have seen this, and it was a mistake to not follow suit.
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-05-05 00:25 mircea_popescu: understand, if you lease these even as low as 30/mo, your occupancy jumps to... 15%, while your revenue goes to 200%.
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-04-17 14:23 ascii_lander: http://logs.bvulpes.com/pizarro?d=2018-4-17#336946 << ben_vulpes, imho this is starvation-level lowball. your figures do not factor in the cost of ~building out~ the plant, i.e. building new rockchiptrons.
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-04-17 05:19 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/TnPaf/?raw=true
ben_vulpes: !!up quadsar
mircea_popescu: !!up quadsar
deedbot: quadsar voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot: quadsar voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: ohai quadsar
ben_vulpes: who are you
quadsar: uhh
quadsar: i was watching l0de radio for the first time i dont really belong here
mircea_popescu: too late now.
ben_vulpes: what are you talking about, more than any pantsuit 'big tent', you can make yourself into the kind of person who belongs here.
ben_vulpes: stick around long enough and you'll either be made into ^ or spat out
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, the logic being that you're being eaten away at the rate of what, 5% each month ? you can either wait a year and a half to die or sally forth and meet the enemy.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: sorry, i do not follow
mircea_popescu: was in re "building the plant".
mircea_popescu: you put a buncha stuff in log above.
ben_vulpes: ah, is this in re the refinancing for plant buildout?
mircea_popescu: this is in general re -- the very conservative approach with expenditure seen in every other bitcoin corp is due to their having immense balance sheets and tiny forced expenditures. minigame can fucking afford to go slow on nearly ten thousand btc.
mircea_popescu: you however -- you're a wolf rider not a cyclops, if you ever played heroes 3. gotta run there and hit something.
ben_vulpes: i completely agree.
ben_vulpes: time is not on pizarro's side.
mircea_popescu: besides, you can afford it, shockingly enough. 300 x 100 is what, 3.x btc. not the end of the world. if he actually gets it through the blocade you have an item arguably worth twice that.
mircea_popescu: if bitcoin starts dropping again people will be begging to buy into you, logically.
ben_vulpes: this is the "when do you start trading?" thread all over again; i'm going to have to review both in depth i think i'm thick as it didn't stick the first time.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: baggage holds 4u of machine; there is no practical way to get >24 units of rockchip into a 1u , per my reckoning
asciilifeform: nor is there even the slimmest chance of getting naked bag of naked rockchips in qty approaching 300, through customs. they have to move assembled into 1us.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: can you pull a number for per-u fab cost out of your rear?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, so you're thinking like 100 is your limit ?
mircea_popescu: filling that thing 4 u at a time will take like a dozen fucking trips lol.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i can give a floor. a rc is about 100bux, with the usbstick. chassis, let's say 400. beefy 5v ps : 200. cabling, negligible, but for pessimism say 100.
mircea_popescu: by which time you'll likely have another one.
asciilifeform: gb switch for 24 arses -- 100.
asciilifeform: !Qcalc 2400 + 400 + 200 + 100 + 100
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: 3200
asciilifeform: in iron strictly. add to this, spare sticks.
ben_vulpes: yeah i know the costs for sticks and rockchippen; i wanna know chassis, your time, stuff like cabling
ben_vulpes: switches
asciilifeform: not exactly pocket change.
ben_vulpes tallying
asciilifeform: forget time, i dun get paid for time.
asciilifeform: shouldn't take 4evah to assemble tho. 1 weekend, i picture, per.
ben_vulpes: what it costs to bolt the chassis together i mean
asciilifeform: buncha drilling, really.
ben_vulpes: right
ben_vulpes: so five bucks! for the tap
asciilifeform: 4 holes per RC.
ben_vulpes: laugh a little wouldja
asciilifeform: i'm also on the lookout for even smaller arm boards ( found 1 , but the specs do not stand up to bang-per-buck comparison with RC )
ben_vulpes: look also for boards that'll trbate
asciilifeform: also for compact n-port switches ( the popular ones, are stupidly large physically, and eat away precious space inside the enclosure )
ben_vulpes: not because i want to pack trbs in but because it is *the* litmus test of compute: "will it bitcoinate?"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: RC will trbate, if you give it large disk
ben_vulpes: !!update fromdeedbot
asciilifeform: far better, for instance, than my node 'zoolag', specwise
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: huh i was laboring under the impression that it had unforgivably bad io or something
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the only thing preventing trb on the existing pilotplant rockchippen is the small disk.
ben_vulpes: aok then wow marvelous
asciilifeform: usb3 is moar than adequate.
ben_vulpes: rsa *and* bitcoin-safe coloware
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: for about 100bux you can try it yourself, using http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2295 and a home rockchip.
ben_vulpes: this is grade a shitcoin walletfarm fodder
ben_vulpes: if only shitcoinists were gentoo-capable...
asciilifeform: they dun need to magick the gentoo from 0 tho
asciilifeform: we give it with subscription
ben_vulpes: yeah but gimme a break, none of the shitcoins are going to work on anything but ubuntu and with a gui
asciilifeform: ( or for that matter without subscription, anybody can get it from above link and make own to try with )
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i unfortunately cannot comment on shitcoin-related uses
asciilifeform: tho if we had a miner, it'd be tempting item to install while there's still mains current capacity left over that is already being paid for. tho of course nobody has a miner, not for many years.
ben_vulpes: heh i actually have this usb thinger sitting unused i got as a wedding present forever and a day ago
asciilifeform: y'know what i mean.
asciilifeform: the fat, roaring, 4u kind.
asciilifeform: multi-kW.
asciilifeform: upstack re possible hundreds of new boxes -- gotta remember that the bw pipe is not made of rubber
asciilifeform: at some point folx will start to feel cramped.
asciilifeform: ( exactly when, i do not know )
ben_vulpes: after we can afford more bw, i hazard
mircea_popescu: !!up fromdeedbot
deedbot: fromdeedbot voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: lol i signaled !!update
fromdeedbot: just lurking
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, different kind of compute. there's two kinds, bitcoinate is the other one.
mircea_popescu: fromdeedbot, you can just read the logs you know.
fromdeedbot: ty i ahve been reading them off and on for a few months
fromdeedbot: its actually kind of strange actually talking to guys here lol
ben_vulpes: fromdeedbot: so reg a key, rent a rockchip
fromdeedbot: (say actually again)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, nobody's going to send a proper miner to fucking uruguay. you don't even have the power for it there.
fromdeedbot: i looked i need to download software
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: what'd the other nonbitcoinating kind of compute be?
fromdeedbot: i really like the concept of web based on accountability and credibility
mircea_popescu: fromdeedbot, you can also compile alf's ffa and do it all by hand :D
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aside from the fact that nobody has any such thing to send... there's 2.5kW iirc in the rack, of which maybe half a kw is actually drawn. so in principle such a thing could.
trinque: considered getting a... UY-facing marketing effort going?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, serving trilema (ie, high bw, inconsequential io/cpuram) / doing phuctor (heavy cpuram, inconsequentual io/bw).
fromdeedbot: i'm hoping that this system will be streamlined a bit
ben_vulpes: fromdeedbot: for my notebook, what needs streamlining?
mircea_popescu: trinque, sell to locals ?! but why the fuck.
trinque: they don't buy website hosting there?
ben_vulpes: trinque: that was what was behind the minimal hosting gedankenexperiment
trinque: and the other idea I had was sending danielpbarron back into l0de radio hour with an ad
trinque: or one of you folks, but they already heard from him a few times.
asciilifeform: selling to locals might actually be a dangerous liability, for all we know they have 'legal rights' to xyz
ben_vulpes: heh judging from teh l0de patreon page could buy some airtime
asciilifeform: ( to complain, wheedle, demand refunds for emptied bottle, etc )
trinque: !!up danielpbarron
deedbot: danielpbarron voiced for 30 minutes.
fromdeedbot: @ben the process of registering a key
danielpbarron: i just gave a shoutout to pizarro on l0de
trinque: eyyyy!
asciilifeform: neato danielpbarron
ben_vulpes: word, thanks danielpbarron
mircea_popescu: trinque, not really. it's like trying to direct marketing effort at montana.
ben_vulpes: fromdeedbot: a) the whole name is tab-completable and should be used b) it's really not that hard dood
ben_vulpes: have you...tried?
trinque: mircea_popescu: who's the customer you have in mind?
mircea_popescu: and you'll run out of uruguay before you run out of them.
trinque: heh probably so.
mircea_popescu: moreover alf has a solid point. you have 0 interest in dealing with local orcs. there's a reason chinese soy farm in africa dun sell soy to africans.
mircea_popescu: or w/e, ruby mine, brothel, what have you.
ben_vulpes: looks like the monthly cost basis, assuming a 1-yr amortization horizon is 18.35 usd
mircea_popescu: and if they last 10 years you're basically printing money.
ben_vulpes: oodles.
mircea_popescu: and he wanted a bitcoin miner. this is higher btc/watt
ben_vulpes: fully-rented 4u of this would bring us to breakeven at $50/mo, but demands 100% occupancy, otoh that's only 25% of 16U rockchip plant occupancy. so, i don't see a really compelling case for bringing the price down much further.
ben_vulpes: imma rework april, thanks for catching my derps mircea_popescu
ben_vulpes: !!up fromdeedbot you gotta close the web page when you close your laptop
deedbot: fromdeedbot voiced for 30 minutes.
fromdeedbot: my bad i thought i did
fromdeedbot: i have an rsa key now
ben_vulpes: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-5-4#349507 << i too would like some of these dollops, should one slide from your spoon
mircea_popescu: !!key fromdeedbot
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-05-04 16:05 mircea_popescu: anyway, /me will expose the hand, might as well be upfront about things. so, asciilifeform did at some point express some interest in learning the magical crafts of management ; i since fed him the occasional dollop, in the manner this craft was always taught whenever it was taught. as part of this, when he left for montevideo i specifically told him to recognize BingoBoingo 's efforts
mircea_popescu: lmao check him out, he actually registered that nick.
ben_vulpes: lol he actually got the fromdeedbot handle
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes, you just got one earlier!
mircea_popescu: but noted.
ben_vulpes: yes and thank you!
fromdeedbot: so how do i register it with deedbot
fromdeedbot: !!498478E2A39BD8C1
fromdeedbot: im new
ben_vulpes: fromdeedbot: you read the faq and help pages
mircea_popescu: fromdeedbot, you did already apparently. umm.... wait wait.
trinque: wtf did he even do just now
mircea_popescu: SOMEONE ELSE reg'd that nick.
ben_vulpes: oh lawdamercy
fromdeedbot: gpg: key 498478E2A39BD8C1 marked as ultimately trusted
mircea_popescu: fromdeedbot, you can't register this nick ; pick a better one. then say !!register and your fingerprint.
fromdeedbot: from my terminal
trinque: and the way this is going, understand he doesn't mean touch your computer screen
mircea_popescu: i like how there's practically no snark here ever at all.
trinque: d'aw
trinque: come on back with a better nick "fromdeedbot", and register that.
ben_vulpes: fellas ears are probably bright red
mircea_popescu: you know this eulora server is actually more connection-stable than th eother one ?
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