Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-12-10 | 2016-12-12 → ↓
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/lower-korea-makes-our-democracy-weird-again/ << Qntra - Lower Korea Makes "Our Democracy" Weird Again
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: impeached ??
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: ty fxd
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: there were 2
asciilifeform: 'president was impeached'
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: scan results: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/P5jFW/
ben_vulpes: do the various weird telnet responses imply an encoding nightmare i have to figure out and fix on my machine?
asciilifeform: never seen any such thing prior.
asciilifeform: btw those various 'wtf is that' shitftp servers ? many are exploitable.
asciilifeform: if only we had some use for these...
asciilifeform: 0 s:/C=US/ST=Ohio/L=Westerville/O=Leader Technologies Inc/CN=www.leaderphone.com << lel
asciilifeform: ftp: 220 NotARealServer 0.0.0.1 - Its just here becuase we watch it like a hawk << also lul
asciilifeform: probably there is more, lulzier, but i'll bbl.
ben_vulpes: how'd you pull that gem out so quickly?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: ty fxd
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: with hands!
davout: master delusionist's mig
asciilifeform: true master needs no junkyard artifact
asciilifeform: can mig in own mind.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/ACDB32FB4F95A910FB09001CAB31B67086FDE81B2ED884CD0D60A41EE67CB49A << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1599...6999 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '201.222.106.8 (ssh-rsa key from 201.222.106.8 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (leased-line-ptoq-adsl-201.222.106.8.cotas.com.bo. BO B)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2C24B5DEB41DB3A5A7BF180833B9FA2DF23C78F887B4CB52F57F662DD5632F8D << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1715...0197 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '213.226.8.108 (ssh-rsa key from 213.226.8.108 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (brico-rus1.mtel.net. BG)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the part where the hawk watcher misspelled because is!
mircea_popescu: http://www.venturejapan.com/fast-track-sales-japan-1.htm << dat cwazy shit. 100% dedicated to esablish "we IS!", maybe at some point gets around to "we do"
adlai: congratulations on sellout, mircea_popescu & asciilifeform ! although requiring wholesale minimum of half the stock seems kinda 'asking for it'
mircea_popescu: the who what ?
shinohai: !~bash 2
jhvh1: Last 2 lines bashed and pending publication
a111: Logged on 2016-12-01 05:55 mircea_popescu: aaaand... we're sold out on the 1st batch o.O
mircea_popescu: looky : it's rare that your conclusions are baffling because i'm not aware what ~i~ said. it's generally the case that i'm not aware what nutty assumptions you baked into it. so, what ?
adlai: 'congratulations'
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59tKpTFlaME << pretty sure that's illegal by now
mircea_popescu: ALONG WITH EVERYTHING ELSE!
asciilifeform: 'we'll murder'em all, amidst laughter and merriment! except for a few we'll take home to EXPERIMENT!!111'
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F24AA9CF11A01F8E3F25C060D49840FB4E0D7D78FF146A3024B3BFEE92EC85BB << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1540...7149 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '213.41.78.163 (ssh-rsa key from 213.41.78.163 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (radius-front2.fr.colt.net. GB)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2C24B5DEB41DB3A5A7BF180833B9FA2DF23C78F887B4CB52F57F662DD5632F8D << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1536...4809 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '213.226.8.108 (ssh-rsa key from 213.226.8.108 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (brico-rus1.mtel.net. BG)
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3aCuKBWE3A << in other news, nick cave ain't even terrible.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/this-nick-cave-thing-isnt-even-horrible/ << Trilema - This Nick Cave thing isn't even horrible.
mircea_popescu: in other news, today i learned a chinese! it goes like so : 和我一起，那是你的婊子掴你进监狱，并与所有的民族疯人院
shinohai: !~translate en to zh-CN Fuckgoats
jhvh1: shinohai: Fuckgoats
mircea_popescu: !~translate en to zh-CN "FUCK GOATS"
mircea_popescu: !~translate en to zh-CN "FUCK GOATS"
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: FUCK山羊
shinohai: well
mircea_popescu: ahaha gimme a break
mircea_popescu: !~translate en to zh-CN "VIGOROUS COPULATION GOATS"
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: 高原复制山羊
shinohai: top kek
shinohai: !~translate en to zh-CN "rape goats"
jhvh1: shinohai: 强奸山羊
mircea_popescu: rape is not the answer!
mircea_popescu: !~translate en to zh-CN "plateau copy goat"
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: 高原复制山羊
mircea_popescu: !~javascript.eval("高原复制山羊"==="高原复制山羊")
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Error: "javascript.eval("高原复制山羊"==="高原复制山羊")" is not a valid command.
shinohai: eval in js is bad mkay
mircea_popescu: !~exec(c.eval("高原复制山羊"==="高原复制山羊"))
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Error: "exec(c.eval("高原复制山羊"==="高原复制山羊"))" is not a valid command.
adlai: ;;later tell mod6 may I please be granted admission to your trb dev channel(s)?
adlai: !~later tell mod6 may I please be granted admission to your trb dev channel(s)?
jhvh1: adlai: The operation succeeded.
adlai: asciilifeform: any forecast of when batch two will assemble & ship?
asciilifeform: adlai: if all as planned, end of week
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: well the cyrpto-pocalypse is happening. reading several arguments against the "paper-wallet" and literally saw "Javascript has strong cryptographic functions. Generate keys in your web browser!"
thestringpuller: Luke-jr was trying to warn people similarly to you as to "paper wallet" crap-olade. And "the self proclaimed experts" stated, " He doesn't believe that any security sensitive activity should happen in a web browser, disregarding the fact that today's JavaScript actually has excellent cryptographic bonafides -- like a random number generator that's generally stronger than whatever the host operating system can offer."
asciilifeform: what part of this crapola is new or interesting, thestringpuller ?
adlai: this sounds like a criticism of JS-generated keys, rather than a criticism of "private key never existed on an internet-connected computer, and no backup is saved other than a piece of paper"
thestringpuller: While asciilifeform is diligently building fuckgoats the lamestream media will inevitably "white wash javascript" crypto. Above is evidnce of it happening in the making. Maybe not suprising to you. But surprising to me to see it more rampantly.
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: keybase etc were going strong year+ ago, snore.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: I don't think keybase allows you to generate keys anymore...you have to supply them...
thestringpuller: or atleast I have yet to encounter a keybase user in the wild who has done so...
shinohai: nah they still ask you to "paste copy of privkey in browser to enact enhanced features*
Framedragger: (but for clarity, keybase works perfectly well without being supplied with privkey, no?) ("i'm just sayin'" - not defending keybase.)
davout: shinohai: you're such a racist and elitist pig. cryptography should be easy and downloadable from the appstore
thestringpuller: look i thought jgarzik's tweet about gpg dying was just an outlier of PRB nonsense but it's a plague now I've witnessed for myself, that is all
Framedragger: indeed, attack is stronger than initially pictured. "sane" "developers" actually promote js crypto, etc.; i guess that just means that one has to be even more vigilant (and proactively declare those to be insane).. :)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: who, in particular ?
asciilifeform: let's hear names.
Framedragger: well.. that's one of the problems. i don't really keep names in my mind, it's not worth the space. sorry if i implied that i'd be able to point at anything interesting
shinohai: (keybase allows signing of zcash scam addys)
Framedragger: fwiw i still like moxie, but it's sad that he's doing the "i don't use gpg anymore" thing, too
Framedragger: shinohai: why should it selectively disallow to sign whatever you wanted?
shinohai: well sure u dont have to use it
Framedragger: i suppose so, but his tone was more like "gpg UI is shit => gpg is shit => eh fuck gpg, i'll just use signal/otr etc [and i encourage others to do the same]"
Framedragger: which is, you know, how you end up in a pool, surrounded by sharks and tigers :p / :(
Framedragger: (but that's different from a developer endorsing js crypto, of course)
phf: goes back to our conversation about "why you no respect ptacek". since their opinions are not hinged on any deliberately lived experience, they change them according to fashions. if you happen to be fashion aligned you'll think that they are geniuses, but as soon as you start doing your own thing, you realize just how superficial they are
adlai: out of curiosity, why are orders encrypted to mircea_popescu , when i'd assume (silly me, all these assumptions!) that asciilifeform is the one actually doing the assembly + shipping?
asciilifeform: no particularly good reason.
asciilifeform: but on other hand, i ~like~ not having to know where crate is doing until the very hour.
adlai: ok so i'll leave out the --encrypt-to stan
asciilifeform: get into the habit of encrypting to the fella to whom you were asked to encrypt.
asciilifeform: and not also to x,y,and z.
adlai has this nasty habit of doing things for no particularly good reason. working on culling it.
asciilifeform: it is a very bad habit and has killed quite a few folx
asciilifeform: 'wut dus this button do'
adlai: ugh, sadly internet collections of quotes from "The Phantom Tollbooth" lack the one about valid reasons... left as exercise to reader
asciilifeform: phf, trinque, et al : is it yet possible to throw a vpatch into deedbot ?
asciilifeform: i would like to deed FUCKGOATS
asciilifeform: WITHOUT THE IDIOT MUTILATION of clearsign
asciilifeform: omfgh is this still unsolved problem.
adlai wonders whether the delay of signing the order info is worth the gain in trust
adlai: sufficiently resourceful prankster might enrich S.NSA at customers' expence by giving them different amounts
asciilifeform: adlai: how about whether delay in tying your shoes is worth the gain in not tripping over own laces ?
asciilifeform: adlai: what did your mother say to you when you were small and asked this ?
asciilifeform: because i am now becoming quite certain that you did ask
phf: asciilifeform: i think the solution that we arrived at is that you just paste the two pastebot urls clear and sig and i pick them up. so if you want to deedbot them, just do that, and you can assume that it'll end up in btcbase
asciilifeform: i'd like to deedbot it though.
asciilifeform: y'know, with block time & all.
adlai: asciilifeform: i realize there is not an incentive to perform such mischief. this is just me being talkative.
phf: asciilifeform: i misunderstand the question then
phf: i guess deedbot does something it shouldn't do..
asciilifeform: phf: i have: 1) fg-genesis.vdiff 2) fg-genesis.vdiff.asciilifeform.sig
asciilifeform: i want : these ^ deedbotted.
asciilifeform: AS THEY ARE
asciilifeform: doable ?
asciilifeform: my current understanding is 'no, and never'
asciilifeform: btw for folx who are thick as a brick i will point out, that i SPECIFICALLY DO NOT WANT vdiff's '---' turned by idiot koch liquishit into '- ---'
phf: huh, i didn't know that. i thought deedbot takes binary blobs sort of deal
asciilifeform: does it ?
adlai: raudus jactum est!
asciilifeform: i thought it only ate clearsigns.
phf: trinque wants me to deedbot logs, and if it only takes clearsigns, that would be kind of tricky.
asciilifeform: ok what's the syntax then
asciilifeform: where do i insert (1) and (2).
phf: trinque: ^
asciilifeform: and lol, did i just find another bug in gnudiff.
asciilifeform: holy shit.
asciilifeform: scratch, it is a bug in VDIFF
asciilifeform: so i had two base64's png files in there,
asciilifeform: and apparently '+++' is a valid sequence inside these.
asciilifeform: it occurred.
asciilifeform: MOTHERFUCKING in-band.
asciilifeform: oh and yes, it occurred as FIRST CHAR IN LINE
asciilifeform: so of course vdiff's awk cmd ate it and shat out 'false'.
asciilifeform: right into the output stream.
adlai: at which point the planet gains angular momentum, due to murphy spinning slower in his grave
asciilifeform: ideas ?
adlai: i don't think "+++ " can be a valid (subseq line 0 4)
adlai: although i may be understanding the spec incorrectly
asciilifeform: adlai: the space is the separator
adlai: it could help to see the exact lines that caused this
adlai: re:space, i realize the space is the separator in the patch syntax; the awk script is not looking for it though
asciilifeform: adlai: it's actually a line of binhexolade that begins with '++'
asciilifeform: gnudiff turns that into a '+++....'
asciilifeform: and vdiff sees it and emits the barf.
asciilifeform: retardation sandwich.
asciilifeform: it is more or less literally a godelization of vdiff.
adlai: the per-file header produced by gnudiff should contain two spaces, whereas b64 data should contain none
asciilifeform: i have nfi right now what to do with this nonsense.
asciilifeform: adlai: spaces where ?
adlai: in the lines that you do want that awk script to match
asciilifeform: and what prevents some idiocy in the future from also 'containing two spaces' ?
asciilifeform: do you understand, adlai , that i am NOT interested in beginning long career of idiot special case patches to vdiff ?
asciilifeform: where it gets longer and longer ?
asciilifeform: and gets nailed same way every time ?
adlai: of course, although the current vdiff is a mishmash of three abstractions, two of which have their own DSLs (bash & awk), so some amount of abstraction leak is inevitable
asciilifeform: and before anyone asks, the png's are not lolcats, they are schematics
asciilifeform: and the pld verilog code in the genesis is WORTHLESS without the schematics
asciilifeform: so right now i'm looking at the options:
asciilifeform: a) deedbot hashes of binary garbage -- this is not vtronic!
asciilifeform: b) release vtronic pld source only -- and deedbot apparently doesn't eat vpatches yet -- AND then would have no schematics
adlai: d) b64(gzip), hope that bug doesn't recur
adlai: obviously this is not a replacement for a proper fix to vdiff itself
asciilifeform: adlai: fuck that
asciilifeform: you want 'hope', go to casino.
mircea_popescu: !!up deadweasel
deedbot: deadweasel voiced for 30 minutes.
adlai: this 'hope' gets tested immediately. i'm only suggesting a quick fix here, still thinking about the proper one.
asciilifeform: lel mircea_popescu shows up just when i was about to switch on my robotic autopopescu, to say 'stop trying to deedbot nonhumancomestibles!'
phf: binary blobs remain an unsolved problem. the whole idea of binary (or base64) is contrary to some of the more philosophical aspects of vpatch you and mp like to discuss, so i don't know if base64 even solves it.
mircea_popescu: i showed up cuz done fucking, dun mind me.
jurov: what about converting pics to ppm/pnm?
asciilifeform: jurov: and have 10MB vpatch?!
asciilifeform: no thx.
asciilifeform: phf: fact is, the schematics are a) human readable b) essential to the device c) not ascii
phf: what about providing schematics in a textual format of some sort? it being a graph some form of graphviz dot or whatever
adlai: as i see it the problem is that a valid gnudiff output is a false positive for the awk script, this actually has nothing to do with b64 that just happens to have produced the first example of this output
asciilifeform: phf: fact is, they are not born in that form, and can only be converted to it by hand, with the attendant errors and weeks of necessary double, triple, dodecuple check
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 17:54 adlai: asciilifeform: any forecast of when batch two will assemble & ship?
asciilifeform: adlai: this is a) correct and b) unsolvable in the general case afaik.
phf: asciilifeform: to some extent it goes back to the that thread about thinking on the board, and the result of thinking
mircea_popescu: lol javascript rng stronger jesus christ,.
adlai: my proper fix to this would be writing vdiff in zero-dependency ANSI CL, and replacing the "long career of idiot special case patches" with a short career of specific kelvin-reducing patches
asciilifeform: phf: if you want to suggest a solution that doesn't reduce to my a) or b) or any c) that delays shipment for month+, i'm all ears.
asciilifeform: adlai: how does that fix the 'magic string' problem ?
asciilifeform: tell me
asciilifeform: what will your vdiff do when it sees a '+++ foo' ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581191 << ffs. these people and their "features"...
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 18:03 shinohai: nah they still ask you to "paste copy of privkey in browser to enact enhanced features*
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581194 << "gpg dying" in usg speak is "tmsr is taking control of gpg" and no more.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 18:08 thestringpuller: look i thought jgarzik's tweet about gpg dying was just an outlier of PRB nonsense but it's a plague now I've witnessed for myself, that is all
mircea_popescu: we appreciate the compliment ; they can go serenade all the dumb cunts that don't know better, as before.
mircea_popescu: because yes - we are taking over rsa altogether, from the format down.
phf: asciilifeform: i suggested one, i'm still suggesting it. philosophically correct solution would be to reduce graph to something that can be reasoned about as text. note that i'm not even sure if i'm prepared to advocate for that as the main way forward, but it's an option.
mircea_popescu: i'm way behind here am i.
asciilifeform: phf: understand that the schematic as represented in the png is what ended up as the board. whereas if i were to redraw it by hand, that is an additional PROMISE
asciilifeform: of course there is also the massive xml turd that the closed-source CAD shat out !
asciilifeform: would prefer THAT ?
mircea_popescu: js crypto ffs. javascript can't even number.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581200 << "moxie" is not much of a name. /me would have never even seriously considered "moldbug" had intel not identified pw:rn to go with it.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 18:12 Framedragger: fwiw i still like moxie, but it's sad that he's doing the "i don't use gpg anymore" thing, too
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: mr mold blew own cover years ago when he linked to an academic paper he had written as undergrad
asciilifeform: it was lulzy, i pointed it out publicly, and he for a while carried on the pretense of 'uh, not me...'
mircea_popescu: afaik outside of my referencing him (and for that matter tlp) by name, it "wasn't know" at least "not publicly" etc. which is disjunct from "not knowable" ofcoars.
adlai: asciilifeform: hypothetical program gets two files as input, old version and new version. proceeds to make diff itself, rather than relying on gnudiff; doesn't need to use awk matching since it's not massaging grudiff output but rather producing the vpatch directly itself, thus bypassing this magic string. am i missing something?
mircea_popescu: but yes, plenty of people discretely knew.
asciilifeform: adlai: why would i want your 1,000+ line difftron ?
asciilifeform: instead of my ONE
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581208 << yes, silly you. stop trying to infofish or i'll negrate you, and permanently this time.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 18:32 adlai: out of curiosity, why are orders encrypted to mircea_popescu , when i'd assume (silly me, all these assumptions!) that asciilifeform is the one actually doing the assembly + shipping?
mircea_popescu: minding own business, as reflected in, for eg, having actually come up with something useful at some point, and also in the negative in, eg, not asking me to do your homework out of published data, is key.
mircea_popescu: being an obnoxious turd, no matter how disguised, ain't gonna purchase you jack shit. no matter what you delude yourself into thinking it purchased.
adlai: i do hope that identifying my assumptions as such as improvement upon leaving them implicit.
mircea_popescu: this "concerned public" nubbinstardation didn't work for the original nubbins. you think you're special or some shit ?
asciilifeform: eh, let's not beat the d00d to a pulp, he just ordered a unit
mircea_popescu: yes, but what the fuck is it his business that old whore of hillary is doing my secretarial work ?
asciilifeform: i have nfi why he'd care fwiw.
shinohai: !!rate BingoBoingo 3 "Qntra: Herald of The Most Serene Republic"
adlai: my intent was not nubbins's "you guys are operating badly", but rather "you guys are operating differently from how i expected, could you please educate me as to why my assumption is incorrect?"
mircea_popescu: you don't operate jack shit, what expected ?
mircea_popescu: your assumption is mistaken in your having one in the first place.
phf: asciilifeform: perhaps binary blobs don't belong ~in~ vpatch in general for philosophical and mechanical reasons. my proposed solution 2 would be to extend vpatch tool to tack one base64 binary blobs after the fact. you can grep for "appears to be binary" or whatever it is and feed those separately to uuencode/decode.
shinohai: !!v 2B3E25C636C5902702418816EEA2C627A195A8F17B08B44572CE4F4231AAEFB1
deedbot: shinohai updated rating of BingoBoingo from 2 to 3 << "Qntra: Herald of The Most Serene Republic"
asciilifeform: phf: i could easily write proggy that eats a binturd and produces a vdiff-harmless shell script that, when executed, disgorges same. but the IDEA, yes, bothers me
adlai: mircea_popescu: i'm trying to replace the mistaken assumptions, stemming from operating hypothetical services within my own imagination.
asciilifeform: phf: it is a sinful thing to do
asciilifeform: phf: however, omitting the schems from the genesis is also sinful.
asciilifeform: i'ma ask mircea_popescu to make the cut.
mircea_popescu: just drop the whole imagination thing, it ain't useful. it just provides a way for you to waste your energy. go do things, if you ask then "hey, i am now opening shop for adlai's electronic dildos, but i don't intend to do X like nsa did, but this other way, anyone see a problem?" you'll get an answer and proceed from there.
adlai: ok. sorry for getting you riled up again.
asciilifeform: phf: mutilating and complicating vdiff or v is the very last thing i'm interested in.
asciilifeform: it is the worst possible answer.
asciilifeform: and i did promise to eschew non-7bitclean vpatches !
asciilifeform: and so did phf !!
phf: asciilifeform: uuencode/uudecode
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581221 << when i had to put in, eg, gpg tarball i apparently used base64 of it.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 18:40 asciilifeform: WITHOUT THE IDIOT MUTILATION of clearsign
asciilifeform: not interested in special cases in vdiff or v.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you didn't v igt
asciilifeform: problem happens when v.
mircea_popescu: did not. just deedbot.
asciilifeform: correct
asciilifeform: but fg-genesis is an item i produced out of thin aether. it is v material.
adlai: re: "go do things", another thing i've been doing is studying towards http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556804. my understanding thus far is that it is firmly within "not possible to put into Bitcoin" territory, but still potentially interesting; and i am not yet confident enough in my understanding to try explaining to others; but i should be in a ~month.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-19 18:15 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-10-19#1556766 << state its math part sometime.
adlai: (this is re: the "MimbleWimble" not-yet-altcoin)
mircea_popescu: adlai your attempts to state "the moon math" for $item resulted in knowledge that... "not possible to put into bitcoin" ? this is mixnonsense wtf. math is math.
asciilifeform: adlai: do me personal favour , and drink a long cup of tea, i am trying to deal with actual problem here, it needs solution, from able hands
phf: asciilifeform: i've got another one :)
asciilifeform: phf: do say!
asciilifeform: and how do the eulora folks solve this..?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581240 << the never part there is iffy. i ~think~ that once we finally get tmsr-rsa, we will NOT be doing that idiocy.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 18:46 asciilifeform: btw for folx who are thick as a brick i will point out, that i SPECIFICALLY DO NOT WANT vdiff's '---' turned by idiot koch liquishit into '- ---'
asciilifeform: do they even v ?
mircea_popescu: would you agree the correct move here is to actually specify clearsign format for tmsr-rsa ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, in 'p' i have a 'next N bytes are payload' marker.
asciilifeform: no magic chars, ffs
mircea_popescu: exactly what i had in mind.
mircea_popescu: should have header and offsets. fixed size item.
phf: so vpatches all have preludes, by virtue of how diff/patch works (that's how you can just cat mail.mbox > patch). i was thinking of using that prelude for readme, but you can put base64 binary files there, and verbally communicate additional required steps. it's ugly, but it's without mutilating core concept. prelude is reveserved for whatever ugly special case hacks, etc.
asciilifeform: btw P is rolling soon after FG crates ship.
asciilifeform: phf: no promisetronics plox
asciilifeform: verbally communicate ffs
mircea_popescu: phf these are palleative solutions, you understand i'm sure. the fundamental problem here is that clearisgn is a "magic char" driven thing like nonsense "nullterm" string constructions
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and wait till you get in the log to the OTHER inbandism idiocy of the day
mircea_popescu: this may even be ok if the magic chars weren't fucking DASHES ffs.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: next one involved + signs
mircea_popescu: one tiny step under making them the letter "e"
mircea_popescu: (hey, it's not THE most common english letter!)
asciilifeform: if it's in 7bit ascii, it's equally sad
asciilifeform: +, or -, .or 'e'
phf: mircea_popescu: the whole thing is "magic char" driven though. in this particular case the failure is not just from clearsign, but from a combination of clearsign and vpatch own magic chars.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and if it's not it's not printable.
asciilifeform: correct
mircea_popescu: phf not so. the rsa part is NOT magic char driven.
asciilifeform: escape chars are evil.
asciilifeform: they WILL die.
asciilifeform: i, with own two hands, will kill them.
mircea_popescu: you don't "exponent multiply" the payload "up until you run into the number of the beast"
phf: mircea_popescu: i mean vpatch's own --- +++
mircea_popescu: yes, that.
mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform : as a palleative : could we actually just fucking edit koch-rsa so that "----" rather than "-" becomes a symbol and deploy this on deedbot ?
mircea_popescu: so it DOESN'T do - - for ONE -, but only for five -----
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in principle, but it will work exactly until next time binhex shits out a file with '----' insiden !
asciilifeform: which is 100% legal binhexola
asciilifeform: *inside
mircea_popescu: in principle we should just make it the whole story, "----- BEGIN FUCKAGE -----"
asciilifeform: until binhex emits THAT.
mircea_popescu: yes. but fuck me sideways, how likely is this by now.
asciilifeform: (how? someone will sign the log! and here it is, mircea_popescu wrote it!)
mircea_popescu: i dunno, i'm just saying, cheap lye solution.
asciilifeform: it is now 100% likely.
asciilifeform: because right here it lives.
mircea_popescu: I SPECIFICALLY WROTE fuckage!
mircea_popescu: what, you think it just happened ? it didn't just happen.
asciilifeform: well yes. any magic string can make the all-time-log undeedable.
asciilifeform: which sucks.
asciilifeform: (because there can never be a guarantee against said string occurring therin)
asciilifeform: *therein
mircea_popescu: no, we'll have phf indulge us, nuke specific magic string from log, replace it with something. LETS BUILD UNICODE!
asciilifeform: aahahahahahahaha
asciilifeform: multicode!
asciilifeform warns up multivac
mircea_popescu: phf trinque mod6 does this notion sound as idiotic to you as it does to him ?
mircea_popescu: (i confess it does to me, has no value other than cheapness. but gotta see what peoples think too!)
asciilifeform: 'go to heaven by not swearing'
mircea_popescu: so i'ma just wait here for you to p, and comment thar rather than try and spec a tmsr-rsa-clearsign ?
asciilifeform: it'll be presented as experimental (skull'n'crossbones) genesis, and up for comment.
jurov: MIME avoids this by generating unique magic strings as delimiters after the fact. but you don't want to, i guess.
mircea_popescu: jurov no because then you're stuck with a reflexive system
phf: i'm convinced that blobs shouldn't go into vpatches, this completely breaks the whole readability/communication aspect of it, while still remaining promisestronic: you have to take some additional step after pressing to get the final images.
asciilifeform: phf: i can see this angle very well
asciilifeform: phf: there is only 1 problem , it leaves me with a useless genesis.
asciilifeform: this is a textbook altschullerian triz-contradiction.
asciilifeform: and it has to be actually resolved.
asciilifeform: instead of 'no you cannot have X + Y, pick one'
mircea_popescu: phf suppose you make an ai expert system to beat us at go. this gives you two practical options : either include 10gb worth of binary flags preset ; or else have us beat it at go for 10 centuries before it gets to where it plays like a freshly fucked 19yo.
mircea_popescu: what now of genesis blobs ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally it always amuses me how fascinated the redditard/ycombinatard always seem to be with the "pick 2 of 3" sort of shits, to the point of aspiring to have one named after themselves / renaming ancient ones in anecdotal rephrasings to honor whatever particularly hipstery doofus. never once does it occur to them that the only thing this means is "the problem's misstated".
asciilifeform: bbrregglah's triangle! fdhfzerrglah's triangle!
jurov: i think phf means that everything should be converted into text representation
mircea_popescu: "text representation" doesn't have that hard a meaning in this context though. what's it mean ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i get the problem, but you can always some up with a strict no-blob solution, whether or not it's practical. in this case include your entire training set, that, being go boards, can literally be represented as ascii x/o drawings
jurov: i don't see what's the problem with having 8-10x more data
jurov: mircea_popescu: i offered netpbm, that's well specified ascii image format
mircea_popescu: jurov that'd depend on how much data, of course.
asciilifeform: jurov: i could trivially convert it to a shell script that 1) vdiff will eat without incident and 2) produces the original png when run. but this is morally problematic.
asciilifeform: because it hides the problem.
mircea_popescu: phf yes but can we come up0 with a general no blob solution ?
asciilifeform: whereas a 'have your patch be 10MB' is idiocy and i will not waste time considering it.
asciilifeform: (jurov's pnm)
jurov: there's also svg using data uri, where you can put all data on one line, thus avoiding +++ on line start problem
mircea_popescu: yes but then what the fuck.
asciilifeform: jurov: may as well take the cad proggy's turd then
asciilifeform: it isn't human readable !
asciilifeform: at all!
phf: mircea_popescu: no
mircea_popescu: so then "it always can be done in particular" is no asnwer, is it ?
mircea_popescu: the whole point we're trying to get out of is that adhocness
phf: mircea_popescu: well, the way i got what you grokked from v when it originally came out, is that vpatches are literate, for things that you can reason ~and meaningfully amend~. "unicode on a chalkboard" thread is also relevant
phf: you can't do anything with a binary blob, in which case vpatch serves exclusively as a dumb payload or a container
asciilifeform: this is entirely true
mircea_popescu: yes, they are.
mircea_popescu: ie, the reason koch-gpg-clearsing worked ok for us for a long time is that while flawed as alf correctly (and repeatedly for a year now) points out, nevertheless its hole falls atop a hole of v, namely that it doesn't do "-----"
phf: so my proposed "put everything into prelude" solution preserves the literacy angle, and uses prelude as a "annotation" section, i.e. space for verbiage, supporting material etc. this will work for free with things like btcbase. can also pack it into a tar file and sign ~that~, but breaks a lot of tools
mircea_popescu: while xml is shit, it's not directly clear that the correct move here isn't, eg, to make a tmsr-cad format.
asciilifeform: that'd entail a tmsr cad.
asciilifeform: which is 1,000+ manyears.
asciilifeform: (if you want it to WORK)
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 18:54 asciilifeform: it occurred.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey it's not my fault you keep going around starting fires! oh what does this button do, oh what if we made own hardware, oh etc!
mircea_popescu: first fuckgoats, then laundrygoats!
asciilifeform: i will illustrate: yes, cad proggy can export netlist. but said netlist has no provisions for describing a) part valus (e.g., you get C10, and no place for '0.47uF') or the geometries of the physical chips (you get, e.g., IO1-15 but way to say 'that's pin 44 of a pqfp-44 plastic thinleadc carrier)
asciilifeform: *values
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581272 << wouldja dpaste the whole pile ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 19:05 asciilifeform: i have nfi right now what to do with this nonsense.
asciilifeform: for what would you want the sad pile ? the magic line is that 1 line
asciilifeform: and i ain't signing this shit soup
mircea_popescu: just as an artefact of the lifes and times.
mircea_popescu: like that sad airplane in front of tm airport.
asciilifeform: aite, 1s.
asciilifeform: and haha, there are TWO +++ lines !
asciilifeform: not merely 1 !
mircea_popescu: +++7F0QaZAgBgF3/7448/fmnc/DnT29zJipI3ZCWnifqyfJH6/nRzUt7979al5JtwrACPLNjDb5Pc false <<< ahahaha epic!
mircea_popescu: i was wtf is this extra shit on the side oh OH!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why aren't these schematics svg anyway btw ?
asciilifeform: they simply aren't
asciilifeform: take it up with the german schmucks
mircea_popescu: so it spits out png ?
asciilifeform: it does.
asciilifeform: also dxf apparently, but i have not been able to get ~these~ to render anywhere!
mircea_popescu: see, there's many problems here, and phf correctly identifies the general case in http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581294 ; for eg : what if i want to scale ?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 19:14 phf: binary blobs remain an unsolved problem. the whole idea of binary (or base64) is contrary to some of the more philosophical aspects of vpatch you and mp like to discuss, so i don't know if base64 even solves it.
asciilifeform: it all reduces to the fact that there is no cad but that of the heathens
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform o try dxf to svg convert!
asciilifeform: just as there are no tmsr chip fabs, etc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did, 0 result.
mircea_popescu: that'd have been so cheap...
mircea_popescu: can has dxf blob ?
asciilifeform: cheap but then folks would have less incentive to use the turdware and That Would Be Wrong
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sure,1s
asciilifeform: there'd be 2 of them, i'll make 1 for example
mircea_popescu: anyway, "png as v format" is inept beyond belief. let alone "i wish to inspect this matter and can't use my eyes", it's worse : "suppose i want this to be 3x as large" "oh can't do that". well da fuck.
asciilifeform: http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/tmp/goat.dxf << and i will not that i HAVE NFI WHAT THIS LOOKS LIKE or if it corresponds to what i saw when i drew the fucker!!!!
mircea_popescu: gimme a minute.
asciilifeform: and whether the component values are in there, or evaporated, etc
asciilifeform: and note that this turd is now ~5MB !!
mircea_popescu: i got it!
phf: just attach this png instead http://glyf.org/tmp/dxf2fig.png :D
asciilifeform: that looks like shit fwiw.
asciilifeform: where the fuck did the butterfly missile valves come from phf !
phf: :D
mircea_popescu: 2,2 mb worth of <g id="ID_205" color="rgb(127,127,0)" stroke="currentColor" fill="none" stroke-width="0.055669275"/> <g id="ID_204" color="rgb(0,0,0)" stroke="currentColor" fill="none" stroke-width="0.055669275"/>
asciilifeform: holy SHIT midnightmagic
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu,
mircea_popescu: 2.2 yes.
asciilifeform: donotwant
mircea_popescu: hey, your shit was 4.7!
asciilifeform: the unreadable dxf yes
phf: yeah, fig is 1.4mb
mircea_popescu: it's big dude wtf do you want from us.
mircea_popescu: make simpler schematics.
asciilifeform: btw these render nowhere mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: what the hell didja read'em in
mircea_popescu: wut ? i'm looking at it as it is.
asciilifeform: in what ??
asciilifeform: my gimp barfs
mircea_popescu: da fuck ?!
phf: which is probably ballpark what vectorizing those dxf's produces (probably with significant info loss)
asciilifeform: Opening '/home/stas/gt/1.svg' failed: Could not open '/home/stas/gt/1.svg' for reading: Error domain 1 code 73 on line 11198 column 38 of file:///home/stas/gt: Couldn't find end of Start Tag path
trinque: what's the problem with a P sig header appearing inside another ?
mircea_popescu: your gimp is broken.
trinque: seems feature-ful
asciilifeform: Opening '/home/stas/gt/2.svg' failed: Could not open '/home/stas/gt/2.svg' for reading: Error domain 1 code 4 on line 1 column 1 of file:///home/stas/gt: Document is empty
trinque: outer's offset extends beyond inner, so what
asciilifeform: i tried in www browsers also -- also barf
trinque: I signed his signed thing is already done
trinque just made it to the surface.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform get a working gimp ? i dunno what to say. mine eats it, i am looking at a 1960x2490 version of it atm, looks fine
asciilifeform: trinque: waiwut
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is nonsense and you know it
asciilifeform: a) 2MB crapaola, i'm not signing
asciilifeform: b) svg apparently is not a standard
asciilifeform: because i have nothing on my box that will show THIS svg
asciilifeform: (others -- work)
asciilifeform: what, i gotta allow gtk3 now ?!?!??!?!??!?!
mircea_popescu: it seriously looks good. even your 10K for R5 is there
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i do not use gtk3!
asciilifeform: i will NOT allow gtk.
trinque: asciilifeform: problem was indicated with "magic sig chars appearing in signed material"
asciilifeform: trinque: that was problem 1 of 2
asciilifeform: trinque: read, plz, log.
trinque: problem one is not a problem
trinque: I read the whole log.
asciilifeform: ok now say to me how to vify a schematic.
trinque: wtf if I invalidate #1 that says nothing of #21
asciilifeform: trinque: 1 is still problem : it is impossible to deedbot an UNMUTILATED payload
asciilifeform: i have '---' in there. it will FUCKING STAY '---'.
trinque: I am discussing a supposed tmsr sign format that does not have but a header and payload
mircea_popescu: phf do you have gimp anywhere ?
asciilifeform: trinque: that is simple and i solved it.
asciilifeform: trinque: just not released yet.
trinque: alrighty then
phf: mircea_popescu: no, but your svg works with mac's default tooling
trinque: release and I'll build into deedbot
asciilifeform: i am NOT signing 2+MB of <path d="M 74.336 74.2623 A 0.03178446947803285 0.03178446947803285 0 0 1 74.381 74.3072 " stroke-width="0.0635"/>
asciilifeform: <path d="M 74.1479 74.5402 A 0.03174909447527987 0.03174909447527987 0 0 1 74.103 74.4953 " stroke-width="0.0635"/>
mircea_popescu: phf i have nfi what he's on about. seems to me totally broken gimp install.
asciilifeform: this is lunacy
asciilifeform: and i've been using THIS gimp since 2010.
asciilifeform: for 100% of all bitmap work.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform look, saying "the v is not allowing x char sequence i wanna use" is one thing. saying "o woes i have this here book of 5mn chars and i want it to be readable in 3 minutes" is another thing.
asciilifeform: fwiw inkscape won't eat it either
asciilifeform: nor FreeCAD
mircea_popescu: there's no way to make an arbitrarily complex schematic fit in an arbitrarily short space.
asciilifeform: it isn't complex !
asciilifeform: it is more or less as simple as a schematic gets in life
mircea_popescu: well the dxf you produced - is
mircea_popescu: convertor cut it in half, which considering we went from binary to readable format is pretty performanc.
jurov: base64 -d PfVG0
jurov: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" ?>
jurov: <svg viewBox="-0base64: invalid input
jurov: ^ something iffy with mircea's base64
jurov: when i do base64 -di
asciilifeform: jurov: ^ is what i did
jurov: then it decodes and i can view the svg
mircea_popescu: jurov did you concat them correctly ?
phf: jurov: is it not -Di
asciilifeform: i had -i -d
jurov: i de-base64 each one, then concat and i can open it fine
phf: actually no idea, it's mac's flags
asciilifeform: btw the first svg is cut off mid-tag
asciilifeform: the second --- not
asciilifeform: (closed properly)
mircea_popescu: you first debased then concat'd and it still worked ?!
phf: mircea_popescu: i have nfi either, i have it unpacked
asciilifeform: BUT still not opens anywhere.
jurov: sha512: 45d2dd64fee8410f3a42715e557b20a480e234ae04fa9e18552bbc0510fc5f57288dbfbdc813ad9f4563a29fcae45caf8d885f96c2f6df55da1febac1b3515ff goat.svg
mircea_popescu: ill report in a sec, machine currently hosed painting the svg over 200k x 200k canvas
asciilifeform: eee2b71ee18e7a7fe2db81a89dc143a5eabf3e88d6e72df1d5e11c8772999fe99baf1900ade2e8a2797dea8f3cd740383a4705a3cc87b2af24517b348c0e65d1 1.svg
asciilifeform: e4146be79663731228bfb1d9efe20e6df9ee18921ebeb1a40e2f18d17b7b4c6ceb8606af8ffa8cbcd99ab174e714a927443f9632ebd812328de4c9d9a9086c0b 2.svg
mircea_popescu: ^ phf did it correctly.
asciilifeform: and ftr i am not signing a document that i am supposed to be the original author of but CANNOT GET TO HAPPEN ON MY BOX
mircea_popescu: hang on dawg, we're just trying to figure shit out here
mircea_popescu: nobody's asking you to sign anything yet.
asciilifeform: just sayin'.
mircea_popescu: this box is so hosed...
mircea_popescu: 45d2dd64fee8410f3a42715e557b20a480e234ae04fa9e18552bbc0510fc5f57288dbfbdc813ad9f4563a29fcae45caf8d885f96c2f6df55da1febac1b3515ff /home/mircea/Documents/goat1.svg
asciilifeform: i am apparently 'blessed' with turning over every stone in every garden and releasing every type of insect possible.
asciilifeform: the original, btw, is 600+kB of xml. but this does 0 without the closed-source turd viewer.
asciilifeform: which i am not even sure differs substantially from the svg situation.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i could readily reduce the svg if you wish, most of it is dreamweaver-style pointless tagging
mircea_popescu: prolly only about 500kb or so of it is meat.
asciilifeform: possibly, but does this solve the problem.
asciilifeform: the problem of signing shit soup.
asciilifeform: that probably won't display on my box no matter how massaged, even.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi, you won't fix your set-up so you can see how great a svg i made out of your dxf!
asciilifeform: other svg's (e.g., the ones on pediwikia) seem to work...
asciilifeform: why --- only satan knows
phf: asciilifeform: did you ~concatenate base64 originals first~?
asciilifeform: no, why
asciilifeform: now displays..
asciilifeform: massive turd tho.
asciilifeform: what, incidentally, will happen if http://www.w3.org/2000/svg dies ?
asciilifeform: or begins to include something it oughn't
jurov: same if libpng does?
asciilifeform: libpng doesn't ask for a turd from the www afaik !
phf: asciilifeform: nothing at this point, none of the xml parses uses DTDs (as predicted by naggum)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform are you nuts ? libpng eats 10mb+ of www turds!
asciilifeform: i do not want to sign a 'insert usg turd here!' even if theoretically the instruction is not followed on extant renderer
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not per image load !
mircea_popescu: yes, per image load - if you don't have them, image won't load.
asciilifeform: if nic is unplugged, libpng works
asciilifeform: i tested.
mircea_popescu: yes, but if nic is never plugged and you never import turds - doesn'\t work
phf: asciilifeform: so do svg parsers
mircea_popescu: i also tested
mircea_popescu: so no, png in no sense better than svg in this theoretical approach.
mircea_popescu: svg however better - it can be read, as text, and drawn, by hand. png, not so much.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: png is a bitmap format! where does it ask for www turd? can haz snippet ?
jurov: asciilifeform: the mircea's file does not have dtd declaration anyway...
mircea_popescu: holy shit you're going to argue from "theoretical logic" ?
mircea_popescu: jurov ikr!
asciilifeform: jurov: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8" ?>
asciilifeform: <svg viewBox="-0.07500000000000284 -248.995 196.2842 249.07" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg" version="1.0" overflow="visible">
asciilifeform: is how my copy begins
asciilifeform: this differs from jurov's ?
jurov: it's just an attribute. when i include some TEXT chunk in png with an url, nothing happens either.
jurov: as opposed to <!DOCTYPE shit blabla "http://webserver/blabla.dtd"> - if you feed this to xml decoder, it gets tempted to fetch it
asciilifeform: and tomorrow everyone ends up on boxes with gtk44444 and it fetches ALL urls.
asciilifeform: then what.
jurov: nukes!!!
asciilifeform: this is no good, jurov .
mircea_popescu: at this point i'm not at all clear what problem you're trying to solve here, but it seems to have become "i wish to pack an arbitrarily long poem into an arbitrarily short notation in such a way it will never be forgotten."
asciilifeform: it was short when i wrote it.
asciilifeform: and is to STAY short.
mircea_popescu: not apparently.
mircea_popescu: give me something other than a 5mb dxf to work with, as per this "Short when i wrote it" ?
asciilifeform: the actual semantic content of that schem is miniscule.
mircea_popescu: so then tmsr-cad ?
asciilifeform: apparently
asciilifeform: and i haven't one
mircea_popescu: but if that's what it is - neither v nor deedbot need fixing for it.
mircea_popescu: so at least we know.
asciilifeform: it was not my favoured hypothesis that they must be fixed.
asciilifeform: simply that i am stuck in this corner, where there is a thing that needs doing, that i do not have with what to do.
asciilifeform: at all.
mircea_popescu: yeah. but do you agree the actual problem is the lack of a tmsr-cad ? as far as "right things" go ?
mircea_popescu: alright. any favoured palliative solutions ?
asciilifeform: and tmsr-fab, and many other things.
asciilifeform: and i find myself agreeing with phf
mircea_popescu: hey, i don't want unreadable turds in v trees either.
asciilifeform: a 'everyone scrolls past when reading' turd does NOT belong in v.
asciilifeform: under any circumstances.
mircea_popescu: it'd be too fucking easy a hole for adlais to slither into.
asciilifeform: the schem will be nonclearsigned, the sig -- posted. the boards -- physically wrapped in copies of the schem. is all i can offer.
asciilifeform: cpld program - vified.
mircea_popescu: certainly exists as svg now as well.
asciilifeform: exists but i ain't signing that horror show.
mircea_popescu: good thing signature mechanisms are still human-administered or else we'd be sol.
mircea_popescu: "cold equations" is bad enough when you ~fuck up~, but let me tell you about when you didn't even fuck up in the first place.
asciilifeform: which brings back to #1 horror -- how do i deedbot a vpatch and its sig..?
asciilifeform: is there any means for doing this ?
mircea_popescu: it just eats the patch straight neh ?
asciilifeform: not afaik
asciilifeform: it eats clearsigns neh ?
asciilifeform: i dunno if there exists upon this cursed earth a rope that doesn't break when i go and pull on it...
mircea_popescu: so what are you sauing here, gotta expand deedbot format so it also accepts btc-dev detached sigs ?
asciilifeform: not so fast.
asciilifeform: i have nfi yet.
asciilifeform: thread began with my asking people to think about this one.
asciilifeform: maybe it has a clean answer.
mircea_popescu: q : can clearsigned document be created out of detachsig document ?
mircea_popescu: i suspect we just write a convertor.
asciilifeform: afaik: not with standard gpg, or such that standard gpg will eat the result
mircea_popescu: fuck standard gpg. in principle - this must work.
asciilifeform: but i don't see a good argument for fucking it but not to deaoth
asciilifeform: *to death
trinque: how far out is P ?
asciilifeform: trinque: i cannot answer this, because it is an experimental weapon
trinque: reasonable.
asciilifeform: it won't be fired in battlefield tonight, that is for sure.
trinque: alright, but I am willing to entertain running gpg and P in parallel for some time, ftr.
trinque: new features could come on the P side.
asciilifeform: trinque: it is a very simple thing, think 'rpn calculator' and you almost have it.
asciilifeform: moves the complexity, such that remains, into the payloads.
trinque read ascii's "no formats", sounds nice.
asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/DYPuN/?raw=true << simple example, verification of a signature using public modulus entered 'by hand'
asciilifeform: 'z' simply puts a 0 on the stack, and if ptron sees 0-9 or A-F it shoves the 0 leftward 4 bits, and stuffs in the nibble in place
asciilifeform: thereby you get a stateless hexbignumreader
asciilifeform: there are other commands, e.g., X takes 2 numbers off stack and modexponentiates
asciilifeform: = takes 2 numbers off stack and puts 0 if they are equal, etc
asciilifeform: there are other operators, single character also
mircea_popescu: trinque care to look into if you can bash the signature out of detachsig and attach it as clearsigned ?
asciilifeform: to make the parser almost nonexistently simple
asciilifeform: also this is bad example, in real life no use of p will look like this
phf: asciilifeform: what's the purpose of an extra number in the example?
asciilifeform: which number is extra
phf: 0x9ae... seems like it
mircea_popescu: trinque theoretically at least it should be just transform the binary sig into a plaintext packet and glue it in.
trinque: mircea_popescu: did, the signed item has to have already been run through gpg's idiot preprocessor
asciilifeform: phf: it is the known result
mircea_popescu: ah yes, there is that. so can you try an actual messagelist item ?
asciilifeform: phf: with which the = ends up comparing the output of X
phf: asciilifeform: you have 9ae 2ff 100 da9 * = unless i'm misreading
asciilifeform: phf: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ApmIh/?raw=true << same example but before i stripped out the comments
asciilifeform: (whitespaces and endlines are no-ops in P)
asciilifeform: and also anything found in a ( )
asciilifeform: 'Z' dumps stack, it will not be in released prog
phf: wait so X multiplies da9 and 100, = compares the result with 2ff, 9ae???
asciilifeform: noooooooooo
asciilifeform: modular exponentiation
trinque: mircea_popescu: reading up on the mangling process, maybe
asciilifeform: * would multiply.
phf: oooh oooh
phf: nm
asciilifeform: and yes this is a prog language where all ops are 1 character of an american kbd
asciilifeform: and no lookahead
asciilifeform: ALL ASCII FILES are valid p-code
asciilifeform: (non-ascii files also valid, in 'orc mode', octets 0x1f and below, or 0x7f and above, are ignored
asciilifeform: 0x20 and below rather
asciilifeform: there are things that are not in p yet but have to be
asciilifeform: that i omitted for simplicity
asciilifeform: for instance, p code is required to first thing put on the stack 1) how many p-instrs are permitted 2) how many bits wide the fixints are
asciilifeform: if no 1+2 -- no go.
asciilifeform: if overflow, ever -- terminates with sad.
asciilifeform: if overrun of cycle count -- also sad.
asciilifeform: anyway there are other important aspects (e.g., a pubkey looks like:
mircea_popescu: as an interesting side effect, "random file"
mircea_popescu: ("find the longest ascii file so that a) lzw compression is under 1% and b) the encryption scheme therein discussed is trivially breakable)
mircea_popescu: trinque mind that there'\s a loose cr/lf spuriously at the end of plaintext payload
asciilifeform: mz2FF!...........pz10001!
trinque: I'd have to spelunk further to confirm, but it looks like clearsigning is canonicalize -> sign
trinque: which holy shit
asciilifeform: what this does is store the modulus in variable #13 ('m' simply pushes integer 13 to stack, '!' stores top of stack in var # second-of-stack)
mircea_popescu: trinque yup it is
asciilifeform: to verify a sig, you feed ptron this VALID PROGRAM ^ -- which creates the pubkey in memory -- and then on top of that, the sigogram
trinque: so then the original item would have to have been detach-signed with line endings already mangled to get a clearsigned version that'd verify
asciilifeform: sorry, ez10001!
trinque: and whatever else it does to the poor clearsigs
asciilifeform: we normally call exponent 'e'
asciilifeform: but this is mere convention.
mircea_popescu: trinque wait what ?!
asciilifeform: then verificator goes 'zSOMETHINGOROTHEREXPECTED m@e@X='
asciilifeform: (spaces for clarity only)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this sounds pretty delishious tbh.
asciilifeform: this pulls m out, and e, and X-es'em, and ='s result with SOMETHING...
asciilifeform: this is all just sample for flavour.
asciilifeform: think 'forth'
asciilifeform: e.g., # is dup
asciilifeform: $ gets N bits from your FUCKGOATS
asciilifeform: (N is expected on top of stack)
asciilifeform: +,-,/,* -- arithmetics
asciilifeform: H halts, G -- gcd, etc
asciilifeform: i could go on but why ruin surprises.
mircea_popescu: alf finally made his own asm!
asciilifeform: you ~compose~ p operations by physically concatting the p-progs.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is neither 1st nor 10th 'faux computer' i make.
mircea_popescu: oic. well it's the first here.
trinque: mircea_popescu: it seems to me the two paths (clearsign and detached-sign) sign completely different piles of bits, if the clearsign first goes through some transformer
trinque: so then if I've got a sig of an un-transformed item in ML, it may contain things the transformer would've stripped/modified if it were clearsigned
mircea_popescu: trinque the clearsign iirc is a stricter operation ; but plenty of signedtxts emerge untouched from both processes.
asciilifeform bbl, meat
mircea_popescu: trinque at the very least a result here could be where you machine-verify that X item deedbotted is equal to X' v-item through the process of a) X valid clearsigned b) X' valid detach0igned c) X = preprocessor(X')
mircea_popescu: then eg. the notes field could include link to ml.
trinque: for sure. I'll let all know what I find.
mircea_popescu: but in general speaking, usg.koch blessed us with an idiocy which has to be resolved somehow.
trinque: clearsig "canonicalization" includes line ending conversion to crlf before sig, and lf-only endings probably represent *all* submissions to the ML
trinque: ben_vulpes: was it you and me that ran into this problem at some point? I cannot remember regarding what
mircea_popescu: and then koch wants to go around pretending like he's one of us.
mircea_popescu: how, pray tell ? and check out how easy it is to unearth the heathens.
trinque: and the process is not reversible, couldn't even put the information in like "this had lf" somewhere
trinque: --decrypt gives you a freshly resquashed turd your machine never saw before.
ben_vulpes: possibly
ben_vulpes: yeah that sounds familiar, actually.
ben_vulpes: either i remember a decrypted clearsign's hash not matching or am inventing the memory
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 05:49 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: scan results: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/P5jFW/
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581842 << this is entirely so, and iirc i smashed my head into this very wall when jurov made ( per my scheme ) 'turdatron' ml system
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 21:50 trinque: and the process is not reversible, couldn't even put the information in like "this had lf" somewhere
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-11#1581840 << i dunno that he even bothers to pretend, he is a confessed recipient of microshit cheques
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 21:50 mircea_popescu: and then koch wants to go around pretending like he's one of us.
asciilifeform: ( and devil knows what else )
Framedragger: ohno he received a cheque from microshit??? that hitler!! cmon now.
Framedragger: /me received one from google even, once. (for doing stuff related to... tor!!11eleven)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: not salary
asciilifeform: DONATION
asciilifeform: they approve of the type of work that gpg turd is.
Framedragger: ah, well, that does make one feel.. more uneasy..
asciilifeform: very different animal.
Framedragger: i see what you mean.
asciilifeform: it is not so hard to buy people, without even saying a word;
asciilifeform: when they are poor; but 100x easier when poor+stupid also.
asciilifeform: !#s esr
asciilifeform: i was not going to expand on the 'p' thread until the proggy is done, but this is probably a good time to say 1 more
asciilifeform: there are no special-purpose ops to produce hashes
asciilifeform: it is POSSIBLE to write, e.g., sha512, or keccak, in p, but not essentially necessary, because one of the philosophical turtles of p is that you SEE what you are signing
asciilifeform: e.g., want to sign hash? get it whereever you like, and drop it IN THE PCODE
asciilifeform: (pcode can output, if it weren't obvious, another pcode)
asciilifeform: if my sig is of 'A35A727799941F46F4500F25389F21F4E995F64AC65341080052EC014A8BACD76D992D0C7A5B0250502D', that thing will appear ~to naked eye~ in the pcode as 'zA35A727799941F46F4500F25389F21F4E995F64AC65341080052EC014A8BACD76D992D0C7A5B0250502D' .
mircea_popescu: Framedragger hey, do you also bitch at people who bitch at, eg, mozilla guy who happens to have invented the shit mozilla runs being "bad" because he donated 1k to whoever ?
mircea_popescu: im sure koch got >1k and IM FUCKING SURE microsoft is worse than any "anti-gay-marriage racists" out there.
mircea_popescu: so in short : no, it's not ok to take microsoft money. human trafficking money, the proceeds of sales of endangered baby panda tears, the ransom paid for the return of obama's kidnapped daughters, all that is a-ok.
mircea_popescu: microsoft money, that's unspendable.
Framedragger: i guess it's legitimate to bitch about that. i've never been sure. but i did poke at an acquaintance who had plans of working at gchq. to be consistent, i should.. be consistent.
mircea_popescu: i don't specifically care, myself, but i can't seem to bring any argument that'd stand when someone decides "fuck him, he's a microsoft tool".
mircea_popescu: because well... he is. and if you take the ethical stand that you don't want to be paid by rapists and murderers, then microsoft tops the list in any reasonable interpretation and that's what it is.
mircea_popescu: ~maybe~ the girl really like it ; and ~maybe~ the dude had it coming to him. but ~certainly~ there is no room for windows & co in this world. the advantage of software, it allows definitive statements to be made like that (an inverse of the problem of liability, wherein hardware lock making company CAN replace any broken locks it shipped, but software lock making company can't because they're all the same lock.) this was used
mircea_popescu: to justify why there's no legal recourse for bad software - and guess what, it stands just as well to explain why it is better to murder and rape than to microsoft.
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
mod6 catches up on megal0g
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/65E53AAD3C50368DCEDAB5E9AE49FF9F04FC13CC7B2AA14B00B60A6765883426 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1733...6777 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '109.201.13.182 (ssh-rsa key from 109.201.13.182 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (int0.client.access.fanaptelecom.net. IR)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/AF377674893AE5B24A2C05E8CEA017E2B825916DC2B1288D65229198BF0B7D6D << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1893...6201 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '87.253.102.107 (ssh-rsa key from 87.253.102.107 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host-107-102.253-87.enter.it. IT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/39DF9D425039282DC6DD48D8107CDC48D35C1D374D5B0BACFBBA032EBEB9A8D1 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1560...3563 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '38.96.32.145 (ssh-rsa key from 38.96.32.145 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US CA)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F24AA9CF11A01F8E3F25C060D49840FB4E0D7D78FF146A3024B3BFEE92EC85BB << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1791...1257 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '213.41.78.163 (ssh-rsa key from 213.41.78.163 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (radius-front2.fr.colt.net. GB)
shinohai: During Festivus, for every key phuctored a router gets its wings
phf: so stanford release knuth's annual lecture in a "360" video format, and the write up is disgusting "stanford part of the future!!1". basically you get a 7gib video/80mib audio stream, a fraction of which is a distorted slides and knuth, where's the bulk of which is audience and static ceiling. the thing doesn't render on anything but google stack and ipads. i spent about two days jumping through various hoops trying to get it to render
phf: in some usable format (short of installing google chrome of course) and so far "transcoding with a deskew shader" seems like the most viable option ???
asciilifeform: '“This year, our Learning Innovation team is going to be piloting the use of a new virtual reality 360-degree video camera that will actually allow all those people tuning in over the internet to attend the lecture as if they were physically in the auditorium,”'
asciilifeform: now if only there were also a way to pump the unwashed student's armpit flavour into my office also !!
asciilifeform: will taste GREAT with balanced diet of backs of heads etc
asciilifeform: 'By using a computer mouse, or by tilting a smartphone or tablet, participants will be able to individually control the video angle and experience 360-degree viewing.'
asciilifeform: simulate dozing off, staring at ceiling !
asciilifeform: just like at your real uni lectures 20 yrs ago!
asciilifeform: mega-win.
phf: of course the only proper way of watching this video is using Google Cardboard! https://vr.google.com/cardboard/
phf: i will flatten this shit, or help me god. so far the solution i figured that doesn't require writing code or using dodgy third party software is to use the video as a material texture inside a sphere in blender. with some 3d space camera shuffling i can produce two separate video streams, one of knuth and one of slides, but the result looks like dog so far.
asciilifeform: he didn't release the raw slides ?
phf: guy does hand written transparents mostly or whatever else he can put under an overhead projector
phf: this is more like watching a millenarian speak on a subject of his avocation than anything else
asciilifeform: phf: if you get a usable output, plz consider posting.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/12/ruskies-chase-isis-out-of-palmyra-isis-returns-hours-later/ << Qntra - Ruskies Chase ISIS Out Of Palmyra, ISIS Returns Hours Later
shinohai: bwahahaha lulzy
mircea_popescu: dude wtf, can't just have a text transcript ?
mircea_popescu: fucking monkeys.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/65E53AAD3C50368DCEDAB5E9AE49FF9F04FC13CC7B2AA14B00B60A6765883426 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1629...7809 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '109.201.13.182 (ssh-rsa key from 109.201.13.182 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (int0.client.access.fanaptelecom.net. IR)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/C68477E648E056039DA3F49F5CAF6C7F86A2F6DEA52688B3A2974D1A8F8FCEB1 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1017...8033 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.16.17 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.16.17 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1581891 << lol it just keeps churning 'em isn't it.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 02:00 shinohai: During Festivus, for every key phuctored a router gets its wings
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 02:51 phf: i will flatten this shit, or help me god. so far the solution i figured that doesn't require writing code or using dodgy third party software is to use the video as a material texture inside a sphere in blender. with some 3d space camera shuffling i can produce two separate video streams, one of knuth and one of slides, but the result looks like dog so far.
mircea_popescu: are you going to be making me models next ? :D :D :D
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1581905 << apparently knuth is blisfully unaware the micros even exist.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 02:52 asciilifeform: he didn't release the raw slides ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1581907 << which is the very fucking point, of course. "all equal, all stupid, all vorvarts!"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 02:58 phf: this is more like watching a millenarian speak on a subject of his avocation than anything else
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/AF377674893AE5B24A2C05E8CEA017E2B825916DC2B1288D65229198BF0B7D6D << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1368...9973 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '87.253.102.107 (ssh-rsa key from 87.253.102.107 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host-107-102.253-87.enter.it. IT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/39DF9D425039282DC6DD48D8107CDC48D35C1D374D5B0BACFBBA032EBEB9A8D1 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1350...3569 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '38.96.32.145 (ssh-rsa key from 38.96.32.145 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US CA)
mod6: All in all, I agree that blobs do not belong in a vpatch. As stated, they are for readable, grokable, text only.
mod6: That said, I'm not positive what is a favorable solution to this. For me, I guess I would have considered a disjointed genesis. All code in a genesis.vpatch, plus a comment in the code or README.txt file that points to a clearsigned, base64 encoded deed of the (repeatably extractabale) binary (image in this case).
mod6: I support no such futher complixity in V/vdiff to deal with these blobs. No one-offisms, etc.
phf: fwiw that solution works reasonably with btcbase (right now it's not used, but it picks up a README from each patches folder and cats it inline before the graph, so i can add a "here's all the additional stuff that you might need for this v tree")
mircea_popescu: meh, but how do you verify it
phf: you verify vpatch using its sig, you verify additional assets using their sig. you can't verify that the set is exhaustive though
mircea_popescu: aqnd all sorts of things
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/484822910CDA12E35E6F4186FAC9CEC226A489C3AFE0B9136AD9B2F5373FD65A << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1017...8033 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.4.13 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.4.13 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/C68477E648E056039DA3F49F5CAF6C7F86A2F6DEA52688B3A2974D1A8F8FCEB1 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1017...8033 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.16.17 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.16.17 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
mircea_popescu: bundling data with code is a serious problem ; the v model brings it in a very sharp focus
mircea_popescu: (i've been running into a version fo this in eulora too ; with the art assets)
phf: fwiw it's the same with wordpress
mircea_popescu: yeah ; mp-wp had no themes did it.
phf: it didn't but even mp-wp has a bunch of admin interface images. magnifying glass, scissors, that sort of stuff
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 03:49 phf: you verify vpatch using its sig, you verify additional assets using their sig. you can't verify that the set is exhaustive though
asciilifeform: ftr i still have thought of no satisfactory solution.
mircea_popescu: including data with the code is a nightmare not least because it puts state into things
mircea_popescu: "oh, THIS leaf doesn't go with THAT datapile! gotta use THAT' datapile! except if you feed THAT' datapile to THIS' leaf it comes alive at night and fucks your wife!"
mircea_popescu: i fear the only way forward is for data to be base64'd, deedbotted, and then referenced as such in code.
asciilifeform: sorta what i tried earlier today...
asciilifeform: reactor melted
asciilifeform: i considered making, by hand, a v-able netlist, with component values etc. , in sexpr format, for a nonexistent tmsr cad. the real problem is that everyone, without exception and including myself, will insist on viewing the 'unofficial' pictoral schematic.
asciilifeform: because you can't human-read netlist, not really.
asciilifeform: (for folx who have nfi -- 'netlist' is an adjacency matrix representing an undirected graph, e.g., electric circuit)
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-12#1581929 << http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=bot not to make more work for you, but the smooshing of ircbot and logbot apparently hosed your pre-graph catment
a111: Logged on 2016-12-12 03:46 phf: fwiw that solution works reasonably with btcbase (right now it's not used, but it picks up a README from each patches folder and cats it inline before the graph, so i can add a "here's all the additional stuff that you might need for this v tree")
ben_vulpes: i also have no suggestions for fixing your problem, asciilifeform
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