Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-08-05 | 2016-08-07 → ↓
a111: Logged on 2016-08-05 19:25 mircea_popescu: i gotta stop drinking.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how does the server rental fee make sense as "intangibles and goodwill"?
ben_vulpes: also latest s.nsa posting missing s.nsa wptag
trinque: phuctor's a free public service innit
trinque: in other lol today I discover that emacs tries to ssh to host.does.not.exist at every start
ben_vulpes: nowai
trinque: yeah, hamhanded probing for whether you have ControlMaster support in your ssh
trinque: you'd like to think your machine will with default settings not take it upon itself to diddle the network
trinque: but you know, 2016, great progress
ben_vulpes: psh i dunno what world you grew up in
trinque: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=20015 << if the world ever rights "helpful" is going to be a euphemism for "tries to slip dick in when you turn your back"
trinque: and the fucking bug is "mom my toy is too slow" not "HOLY FUCK THIS TOUCHES THE NETWORK WITHOUT BEING ASKED"
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes well, it's been spent, yes ?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: sure, this is likely a misunderstanding of "intangibles and goodwill" as an asset.
ben_vulpes: (on my part)
mircea_popescu: well, if you cash your paycheck and don't spend it, it's cash. if you spend it to buy a pair of shoes, you have a tangible asset. if you spend it to buy a round for all your friends, it's goodwill.
mircea_popescu: the difference being that the tangible you can turn back to cash whenever you want to ; whereas the intangible you gotta wait for it to decide on your own.
mircea_popescu: on its own* heh.
ben_vulpes: 3% of s.nsa's balance sheet amounts to "sweet parties we have thrown" by that reading
ben_vulpes: nearly 4
mircea_popescu: seems a rather correct description of reality, too.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the whole job of valuating a public corp reduces to adding the proper factors to those 3 categories.
mircea_popescu: how much cash, how much asset and how much goodwill does apple have ?
mircea_popescu: is it work >1 or <1 * what it spent on it ?
mircea_popescu: worth not work heh.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the scheme is both correct and very, VERY fucking scary to "start-ups", because within 12 to 18 months, ~100% of all their capital turns to "sweet parties we have thrown". which is a sad reality they dun wanna look in the face, especially not while trying to get someone/anyone to give them moar money.
ben_vulpes: you book salaries under "goodwill"?
mircea_popescu: nsa pays no salary afaik.
ben_vulpes: no, "start-ups"
mircea_popescu: certainly.
mircea_popescu: the sort of "salaries" start-ups pay have more in common with greenmail than with the proper concept of salary.
mircea_popescu: i've yet to see a start-up engage actual labour, in the classical sense of this term.
mircea_popescu: $s shuttle cocks
mircea_popescu: ie, labour is when you engage a stable of cowsies to die in your stable, circulating company scrip between the company store and the company workshop. then wages actually contribute to assets.
mircea_popescu: which is also why start-up paying anything but warrants/options/stock is primo nonsense. but then again a no-nonsense approach would shut off most of the morti di fame who like to pretend they're participating in the economy, as they'd have to get proper jobs instead of aspie-ing all over town.
ben_vulpes: this greenmail notion is entirely unrealistic, shares allocated to "enginering" are utterly trivial compared to investment tranches, and shartup operators routinely reneg on non-dilution clauses for staff.
mircea_popescu: but the "employees" are still paid chiefly to not go to the "competition".
mircea_popescu: that's the core of that concept.
mircea_popescu: also i find now that the webternet is retarded. investopedia definition for instance is pretty nonsensical. i guess pinoy everywhere.
ben_vulpes: even /i/ know investopedia is trash
mircea_popescu: anyway. greenmail is an antieconomic activity, in the sense that management group A divests capital goods in order to pay management group B to no longer pretend like it could do a better job of managing said capital goods.
mircea_popescu: like, if ethereum-classic created some dilutive ethereum coins to pay off random idiots to run their chain instead of the ethereum-fork. or vice-versa.
mircea_popescu: (this, incidentally, is just as common in scamcoins as it is in scamcorporations aka vc-whatever. "premine", ie, reserved-greenmail.)
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 423920 | Current Difficulty: 2.0189321085305896E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 425375 | Next Difficulty In: 1455 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 2 hours, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 567.36, vol: 6223.64827465 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 570.0, vol: 2594.70548 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 561.91158, vol: 76412.05880000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 572.33, vol: 1077.58913538 | Volume-weighted last average: 562.677707037
mircea_popescu: possibly one of the more depressing activities available in contemporaneity is checking out the portofolio of one of those "artist" photographers that in practice survives out of taking wedding pictures. i don't mean the friend-of-the-bride etsy idiot that DOESN'T survive. i mean the dude who keeps a steady stream of work enough to feed a family, provided that family somehow decided to do on half the income of a plumber becau
mircea_popescu: se daddy's artistique. hopefully the wife fucks around with a non-beta. but anyway :
mircea_popescu: all of them are ooooobviously "speshul". except... all of them are obviously the same fucking thing, the fuck are you gonna do out of a dork who doesn't own suits and a rando girl in a white gauze marshmellow ? within an acceptable budget ?
mircea_popescu: there's only so many ways you can anchor gauze in a tree so it appears windblown.
mircea_popescu: "if i can't comfortably lift the girl in the air, maybe it's time to work out! or maybe it's time to find another girl!" thought no groom ever. "if my wedding threatens to look exactly like the wedding of every other bourgeois idiot, maybe it's time to take off the dress" thought every bride ever, AND THEN CHICKENED OUT ON IT. etc etc.
mircea_popescu: and then that "trash the dress" bullshit. looks exactly like a donna dolore set for the first two minutes, then it turns out the director isn't present and shit goes downhill from there.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, asciilifeform currently eulora messages exchanged between client and server are between 43 and 2048 bytes (really upper limit and rarely seen); this being said, the current system of messages/ exchanges between eulora client and server is quite a mess from many points of view, so it's set to be changed too
mircea_popescu: so what'd typical client do ? 10kbps ? 1 ? 100 ?
diana_coman: about 50kbps
diana_coman: from the server to the client mainly; the other way around is much less, below 10
mircea_popescu: so for an average message size of say 600 bytes, the server on average sends 800 messages to the client each second, and the client back about 1-200. that sound right ?
mircea_popescu: meh wait, i did the 8 conversion the wrong way. 50kbps ~= 10 messages / s if they average 600bytes each
diana_coman: aha; might be worth mentioning too that average can be dubious, since you'll get more likely spikes when lots of things happen where you are and otherwise some very low regular exchanges
mircea_popescu: and by the revision we're doing we hope to cut this... in half ? by 90% ?
diana_coman: hm, kind of hard to say before having done at least some sort of concrete start on this; at this moment I'd say half more as a guess than an estimate
mircea_popescu: ok. so the reasonable move here would be to spec this to transport 10kbps from client to server ; in chunks no longer than 2048 and no shorter than 32.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman this of course includes ~no chat chatter.
diana_coman: yes, this is without chat stuff indeed
mircea_popescu: not a serious problem, i really intend to simply include a chat client. didn't mention this in the fls, but... all comms should be over irc anyway.
mircea_popescu: with the possible exception of pm, which should be a separate function, and point-to-point. (ie, client encrypts to dest's key, not to server's key)
mircea_popescu: (in this discussion, irc is gossipd 0.1, obviously)
diana_coman: sounds ok to me at this stage, yes
mircea_popescu: if we actually go with a 12-pass hashing method, this then will require > 8kb of entropy/second from the client, which isn't possibru without dedicated rng fountain.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, as long as the input isn't actually fucking 0... maybe urandom can survive with this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's your call, because the matter is quite acute : is it a safer system to demand 8kb entropy/second and hash 12 times ? or to demand say 128bytes/second and hash 768 times ?
mircea_popescu: possiblyt the most abused vernam cypher in history.
mircea_popescu: in other news holy shit ffmpeg is a fine example of how not to do a -h switch. it overruns default terminal buffer!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a certain amount of rng load can be moved to server end (rekeying on that end, and ciphers new session key to pubkey of client, which was presumably generated at his leisure and is adequately entropic)
asciilifeform: 'The two men apparently used a laptop and pirated software to start the vehicles and take off. HPD said the vehicles made it into Mexico. ... HPD said it's nearly impossible to stop this high-tech crime especially if someone else has the same pirated software.'
mircea_popescu: nah. everyone's responsible for what he eats. server makes otps for itself ; client for itself.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform good thing they "solved" the old mechanical lock problems then huh! viva progess & technology.
asciilifeform: how, one wonders, did they tout the 'master key over bluetooth' or wtf is in there.
asciilifeform: 'less sweat for repo man' ?
asciilifeform: what, i wonder, are the stats for u.s. car repo ?
asciilifeform: most of'em? at this point?
mircea_popescu: (in other lulz : ro admits both technologie and technologeala as imports for "technology". the first is commonly used ; the latter is a portmanteau of tech and ologeala, which is the noun describing the "fact of having been made olog, ie, unable to walk". quite appropriately.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do they have a french-style 'academy of the language' in ro ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, not most of them, because intelligent people are lazy and cowardly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there's an academy. it is very much vessenes-style ; and always has been.
mircea_popescu: i used to regularly humiliate them for their sheer ignorance, back in the days i almost cared.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand it, car repo is a routine event in usa, if debtor defaults
asciilifeform: or judgement against him, or tax lien, or, or
mircea_popescu: so frequent in fact the manufacturers introduced a special category of "not new, but as-new" to cover for it.
mircea_popescu: "this is a car sold without the intent of its owner". to answer the perennial tyre-kicking question of "so why're you selling it"
mircea_popescu: "i'm not. they stole it."
asciilifeform: the logical end is that the self-driving car will simply take off
asciilifeform: and go to new owner
asciilifeform: when subscription lapses.
asciilifeform: i can already picture sad sacks banging on the doors of mercedes in their driveways, tears
mircea_popescu: can't say i'm entirely opposed to the idea. then i can just log into facebook backend, direct selected womenz to preferred fuckpad ?
asciilifeform: 'doooontt goooo!111'
asciilifeform: aha,this also
mircea_popescu: slight improvement over current state of the art.
asciilifeform: automatic car has circus-level potential for lulz, via induced laziness in 1,001 types of people - say, what kind of policeman might there be, once a routine arrest consists of instructing arrestee's car to take him to clink instead of work the next morning
mircea_popescu: in general tehnologeala weakens the consumer ; advantages the gangster. except of course in practice it works to split the gangster into levels of consumerism.
mircea_popescu: ie, what street toughs will there be once there's no policemen ?
mircea_popescu: contrary to what the state likes to claim, it is always "law enforcement" that creates "the criminal element" ; never the other way around. first there was a police, then there was a "law breaker"
asciilifeform: well how else? what kind of 'law breaker' is there without law ??
asciilifeform: seems tautological
mircea_popescu: anyone know of a better/more intuitive manner of handling metasyntactic marks so as to not run into http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-08-06.log.html#t15:22:52 ?
asciilifeform: there is, say, folks waltzing around and shakin' down folks on the street for their lunch money. and state wants this privilege for itself, yes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform mno. law can exist without "law enforcement". to equate the two is very much part of the statal delusion.
mircea_popescu: notably republican tax is collected w/o an irs.
asciilifeform: without law enforcement in the modern (e.g., 18th c. brit) sense, yes.
mircea_popescu: no. without external enforcement.
mircea_popescu: $key Silverjayw
asciilifeform: traditional euro system did include, e.g., infangthief and outfangthief.
asciilifeform: just as tax collection was subcontracted.
mircea_popescu: let's carry the discussion in terms of tax, always and everywhere the most nevralgic point of the statal model.
mircea_popescu: the republic manages to extract tax without a tax extractor.
asciilifeform: imho tmsr 'tax' is more closely analogous to church tithe.
mircea_popescu: this is important. qualitatively it is exactly as much a state as any usg flavour. the discussion may be carried in quantitative terms,
asciilifeform: more church than state.
mircea_popescu: but the problem is that even here the republic wins : the tax it collects is an optimum on the capital allocation curve
asciilifeform: functionally.
mircea_popescu: something no state ever managed.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the church-state difference is entirely hallucinatory in nature.
asciilifeform: in the sense where all arbitrary convention (and the division of the celestial-terrestrial magisteria thing is quite arbitrary thing) is hallucination.
mircea_popescu: no, in the sense of any ethics (ie, an attempt to implement morals) is equal to any other.
mircea_popescu: the difference between "don't ever fuck a girl in this building, nor drip candle wax on her bare tits while she kneels on this particular wood plank" is no different from "don't call fat people niggers and don't park where that drawing is"
mircea_popescu: lol the difference is no different. mmmmmkay then!
asciilifeform: could sit all day and catalogue weird religions, sure
asciilifeform: all quite similar in this respect.
mircea_popescu: hey, i spent some time with that.
mircea_popescu: then again i spent some time dripping wax on bare tits in 5 century old euro churches, also.
mircea_popescu: but go ahead, illustrate this difference between "a state" and "a church", i'm all ears.
asciilifeform: i always pictured 'church' as a sort of animal that lives in the cracks of 'state'
mircea_popescu: yes but this is entirely an unexamined opinion.
mircea_popescu: more to the point, the "classical village" is an entity that survived fine with a dazzling array of law and regulation that a) exceeds in complexity modern codes and b) was entirely oral in nature while at the same time having... no police. at all, i mean. none. zip.
mircea_popescu: eventually a "king's representative" showed up, and this event marks the end of the classical period, and the start of the modern, ie decay.
asciilifeform: aaactually you can get quite a bit of 'bang for the buck' purely with internalized 'enforcement', i.e. brainwash.
asciilifeform: this, arguably, was rebuilt in usaschwitz, most 'respectable' folk around here live whole life and die without ~any direct contact with police
mircea_popescu: what's your definition for "brainwash" and how do you distinguish it from "education" ?
asciilifeform: and yet obey
mircea_popescu: have you been brainwashed into disbelieving there's as many points in a line as in a plane ?
asciilifeform: you don't distinguish, the difference is a conventional one, 'colour of bits'
asciilifeform: 'what was the intent of the education'
mircea_popescu: there is no intent.
mircea_popescu: what's the intent of your mother teaching you to not piss the bed ?
mircea_popescu: her intent is that if she manages, your father won't have to kill you.
mircea_popescu: which is dangerous, because if she's picked as well as orwell's dumb whore of a mother picked, the derp won't even try it he sucks so bad.
asciilifeform: refrain from bed piss, pay tax...
asciilifeform: dun fuck in church, etc
mircea_popescu: most genetically-sane kids don't ever piss the bed.
mircea_popescu: it's just not naturally occuring.
asciilifeform: i just realized that i have 0 idea who pisses bed and why
asciilifeform: other than incontinent invalids, infants
mircea_popescu: "creative" ie, very variant boys.
mircea_popescu: note that it's VASTLY a more common problem for boys, and ~in civilsiation~ than it is for girls.
asciilifeform: would dearly like to learn why
mircea_popescu: the reason is that nature explores in the male not in the female ; and consequently there's much more variance in the male than in the female ; and because they're all kept alive...
asciilifeform: i meant, what is proximate mechanism
mircea_popescu: shitty brain.
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg
mircea_popescu: what's the mechanism for allergies ? shitty immune system. how about autism ? etc.
asciilifeform: allergy has 'hygiene hypothesis'
asciilifeform: with some explanatory power
asciilifeform: (e.g., the infamous tapeworm cure for allergy)
mircea_popescu: there is that, yes.
asciilifeform brb, food
mircea_popescu: "shitty" in this context strictly means "inadequate to current circumstance"
mircea_popescu: it can't mean anything more/above that ; there's no absolute shitty.
mircea_popescu: in which sense, while mediatory strategies exist, working through modifying the environment - the fact that it needs modifying has not been resolved ; and so the genotype is still shitty.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> 'less sweat for repo man' ? << likely
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> what, i wonder, are the stats for u.s. car repo ? << Behold how normal the repo trucks look now! Some even have boring original factory truck bed!!! http://www.ebay.com/bhp/repo-wrecker
mircea_popescu: so i think i invented a new cocktail. you cut up a fresh ripple pineapple, into small chunks. you pour an inch of fine cognac into an old style whiskey glass. you proceed to dip the chunks and eat them.
asciilifeform: in other lulz, the https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/7910/files ('segwit') crapolade is still going strong in prbland.
asciilifeform: and lel, nobody noticed, log is dead.
mircea_popescu: i was just trying to get BingoBoingo 's links and noticed.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: what's the physical diff b/w 'repo' truck and conventional tow ?
jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-05#1515605 no, crystalspace just makes extracting useful parts of code difficult because it is monolithic framework used for everything - strings, events, drawing, network de/serialization,...
asciilifeform: (incidentally, who has seen film 'repo man' ??)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: repo tends to have business end hidden and quickly self loads vehicle onto carriage.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: hidden?
jurov: but of course, C++ object instantiation documented and used in crystalspace is avioded in lieu of homebrew mess
asciilifeform: 'In some states, making a clean, quiet repo isn't just a safety matter, it's a legal necessity. Some state laws require that all repos happen without creating a "breach of the peace." That means that if the owner notices the repo in progress and comes out of the house yelling and screaming, the repo agent can't legally repossess the car. Of course, it's in the repo man's best interest to avoid a scene like this, but how?'
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Usually mounted to truck frame under truck bed, or inside truck bed. Instead of toolboxes composing sides of bed as on "friendly" tows, most repos no have factory bed of lookalike
asciilifeform: seems perfect for car thief
asciilifeform: jurov: sounds quite like, e.g., 'qt'
BingoBoingo: Pretty much the only reason any Americans still have "their" cars appears to be that their cars suck
asciilifeform: jurov: and, prior, e.g., 'boost', 'stl'
asciilifeform: cpp is unusable on its own, ergo the babel.
jurov: yea, no two C++people can agree on common string implementation.
ben_vulpes: good morning phf
ben_vulpes: does a1111 self-shutdown every 24 hours?
trinque: if I can get sasl to work I will have an afaik perfect bot
trinque: right now after I issue AUTHENTICATE PLAIN the thing times out
trinque: relatedly I've read cl-irc and the thing is a haphazard mess
ben_vulpes: trinque: "perfect", eh?
asciilifeform: trinque: naggum expounded on the difference between the 2 basic types of program (and program-writer) - the 'exam-taking', 'solved problem!11 i'm done!' and 'reusable, readable, for the ages'
asciilifeform: there is precious little of the latter extant.
ben_vulpes: trinque: who wrote it?
trinque: asciilifeform: I mean perfect in the latter sense
trinque: all problems mine has involve the various nickserv states; sasl auth solves that
trinque: the thing just establishes a connection and shits messages into db, reads messages to send from db
trinque: broke all the code for the commands into their own thing which interacts with the db
trinque: 230 lines now with maybe 100 of that being nickserv logic I haven't deleted yet
trinque: ben_vulpes: some character named Jochen Schmidt apparently
ben_vulpes: "There's a possibility they may not be the only ones that are doing this, but right now we feel if they are the only ones that are doing this, with this arrest we hope we will be able to curb the amount of thefts occurring," said Woods. << quote i'd meant to drop last night re the carlol
phf: ben_vulpes: like clockwork. i will do the tmsr thing and claim that wreckers are blackholing teh server
mircea_popescu: enemies of the revolution everywhere! must stay vigilant, comrades!
phf: i'm thinking of moving it to cock box, but i doubt that's going to be better, since the policy there sets it up to be an attack box
ben_vulpes: wait, what does the box location have to do with anything?
ben_vulpes is dreadfully curious about the actual failure mechanism at work here.
phf: ben_vulpes: it times out
shinohai: "To clear up confusion, 17.5k ETC was replay attacked on Coinbase (~$40k USD)"
asciilifeform: phf: didja ever explain why it doesn't loop forever reconnecting ?
asciilifeform: like normal people
shinohai: ^ BArmstrong
phf: the bot disconnects when ping/pong delay exceeds 30 seconds
asciilifeform: and then ?
phf: asciilifeform: how's cardano going?
asciilifeform: phf: 'tis in the monthly broadcast
mircea_popescu: shinohai that's why the confusion took a week to clear ? because it wasn't 4,5 mn eth coins ?
mircea_popescu: ahahaha is that becoming "how about your mom" ?
asciilifeform: i actually recall phf saying something about why he didn't make it loop forever reconnecting, but cannot find in the l0gz
mircea_popescu: he's wasting his time hopelessly trying to catch up to my ho count while he's still young, that's why.
phf: well, unfortunately i don't have S.LOG to make monthly excuses to shareholders in. log upkeep is like the janitorial work of tmsr, doesn't even come with a promise of future millions
phf: best case scenario, i'll just lose my shit like kako
asciilifeform: lemme help, (do (try-connecting) (is-connected-p))
mats: :(
mircea_popescu: phf why don't you, btw ?
phf: why don't i lose my shit like kako?
mircea_popescu: no, why don't you have s.something
asciilifeform: phf's v-viewer, for instance, is a masterpiece
phf: i don't grok the business strategy of "here's the project i'm working on, it lost x btc so far". cardano had a deliverable, that could be sold, everything else seems to be "tmsr marketing"
asciilifeform: 'а у вас негров линчуют' (tm) (r) phf ?
mircea_popescu: what's that to do with anything ? bitbet had a model, that had a model, this had a model, what's it to you ?
mircea_popescu: dja got a model ?
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform has the utmost respect for phf's abilities, and quite seriously wanted to know why he didn't (do (try-connecting) (is-connected-p)) , not to kick him for 'lazy' or whatever.
asciilifeform: it seems, to my naked eye, like a 1-liner
mircea_popescu: hey, i'm not asking him questions because i hate him. i'm asking him questions because i'm nice!
shinohai: s.lockit
asciilifeform: s.latterns
phf: mircea_popescu: i will have to think about it, because to be honest i've not given it any thought. i'm not immediately seeing a cause for it though
mircea_popescu: it's not like alf is magic and phf is unmagic. come up with something. preferably that'd make sense.
mats: how could you monetize that? trilema credits for s.log?
shinohai builds a printing press that makes wptrons and gets listed on mpex
asciilifeform: phf, by all indications, got plenty of magic, now just needs a crackpot mega-project (tmsr bare metal cmucl ?)
shinohai: distribute shares to holders by number of words ala qntra? xD
mircea_popescu: deedbot is probably closer to becoming a paid service on those lines, it's just mostly deliberate decision to not push it that way yet. which is sensibru.
asciilifeform: i, for instance, would pay for a metal cmucl
phf: yes, yes, keep talking (/me counts words)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i believe him when he says, "i've simply not thought about it". which is the beauty of tmsr, gets people thinking about things.
mircea_popescu: you know, like any serious religion.
mircea_popescu: anyway. eulora made i dun recall, some tens of btcs selling its product so far. bitbet took in i dun recall idem, but maybe a few hundred to a thousand selling its product ?
mircea_popescu: neither of these have so far produced a unit of whatever they produce for less than they sold it for. this is obviously unsustainable ; but also not necessarily a killer early on in new markets.
asciilifeform: incidentally there is a large crater where bbet stood that no one has yet filled.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for ~same reason "colored coins" in all their nutty variants all the way to "the dao" dun work in practice.
mircea_popescu: there isn't ai. and it costs too damn much to actually hand-eval contracts.
mircea_popescu: there's a ~degree of magnitude gap between what "a bitbet bet cost" and what bitbet charged for one.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: is implication here that manual reactor control always must end in a crater ?
asciilifeform: because, e.g., mpex had not
mircea_popescu: no. the implication here is that "automated business" will always end in crater, with the size of the crater as a functiuon of how much everyone actually reliedf on the "automated" part.
asciilifeform: what ought to have been the cost of creating a bet?
mircea_popescu: ie, in case of bitbet things worked smoothly because i never trusted the nonsense ; in the case of the dao unsmoothly because the idiots actually tried this "the code is law" nonsense.
phf: asciilifeform: of course i thought about writing bbet, but that means that i can't work on log, or would spend less time on it. to answer question re no reconnect, at some point there was a reason, which i since realized was silly. to now rewrite bot and integration takes time. which i took, now takes time to integrate etc. if i was working on this full time could finish all in a couple of days. as is, i'm literally hacking in a car on
phf: the way back from ocean city
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform creation's cheap ; closure's expensive. what's the cost of making a kid ? depends. do you kill him right after or do you take him to college ?
mircea_popescu: phf understand you're not being impeached here.
mircea_popescu: just, all things can be discussed, now you've opened this can, so we're discussing it.
mircea_popescu: ~nothing to do with you per se.
asciilifeform: phf: recall thread where asciilifeform was whipped for phuctor rusting ? it was quite fair thing.
asciilifeform: and yes, it makes 0 coin.
asciilifeform: campaigning against franks while the fields overgrow with weed, and aqueducts fall down, makes 0 likewise.
asciilifeform: but how else.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to give you one datapoint : out of close to 2k props closed, there were exactly 2 mispaid ones we had to repay. go ahead and create a team of people who a) pick all items within hours ; b) failure rate of 0.1% or less. then report what it costs.
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo didja see? http://archive.is/TwQKA
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: so this'd be more or less al schwartz's 'assembly line of phd' doom.
BingoBoingo: shinohai: no, ty
mircea_popescu: quite so. it's a deep problem, i have been toying with for many years, because i never do just one single thing at a time.
phf: asciilifeform: ~one~ thread. every time bot goes down i get a "wtf" treatment from you. bot disconnects because there's a connection issue. it doesn't reconnect because there's no reconnection code. i will fix that eventually. i've said as much every time the subject comes up. so i'm supposed to just work on this shit to a chorus of "loooooog dooooown wtf incompetence"?
mircea_popescu: and bitbet was a particularly promising but ultimately failed attempt to take a bite out of it.
asciilifeform: phf: the reason i complain is that the fix is a 1liner, as cited above
asciilifeform: phf: am i mistaken ?
phf: asciilifeform: you are
asciilifeform: phf: for my education, plox summarize?
phf: asciilifeform: there's two problems. one is pedantic, lost messages during reconnect period. one is practical, there's a handful beurocratic steps that needs to take place during reconnect, ensuring you have the right nick, ghosting a stale connection, ensuring that you're authenticated
asciilifeform: ah the stale connection.
trinque: yeah, that's why I'm farting around with sasl over here
mircea_popescu: incidentally, we prolly shoulf just publish a standard irc bot basic, a la gribble (which is really just supybot) then v off it ?
trinque: enumerating the states of nickserv is a tangle of weeds
trinque: mircea_popescu: precisely what I'm working on
asciilifeform: phf, then, has point
mircea_popescu: in which context it makes sense for phf to just wait.
mod6: cool idea
trinque: this sasl bit is the last thing before I sign a vpatch
phf: mircea_popescu: trinque actually published one, but it's a bit too tied to his particular postgresql requirements
trinque: phf: imma rip that out and provide hooks
asciilifeform: phf: see, i did not know that you implemented entire stack, always assumed that you had it hanging off znc or the like
asciilifeform: (which has own reconnect logic)
phf: (i actually integrated that code into btcbase two weekends ago, which is when i piped up about it. but then i went to ocean city, twice now :> so no free weekend of hacking)
mircea_popescu: told you it's all about hoscores!
phf: all these stories from mp basement, i feel like i'm missing out
mircea_popescu: so do i!
mircea_popescu: that feelin' ain't ever goin' nowhere.
mats: fun fact, the usb smart card reader spec defines a control request for eating cards instead of returning them
mircea_popescu: they have to iirc.
asciilifeform: mats: sop in 'atm' etc
asciilifeform: though most of the newer units lack an 'eater' for some reason.
mats: for confiscation!
mats: there's no guidance for how the reader is supposed to fight if the user resists
asciilifeform: or feeds it thermite tape as 'card'...
mircea_popescu: mats bet you that's a separate crime.
mircea_popescu: "fraud and x"
asciilifeform: fraud and resisting-roborrest!
asciilifeform: '"This is Sentrybot XJW - 667 responding to kinetic disturbance at perimeter wall." whirred an obnoxious female voice. "Please put your handcuffs on and lay face down on the floor. This is an emergency."'
asciilifeform: incidentally i've wondered for many years why american atm builders had not yet thought of including hand-trap in the thing
asciilifeform: instead of eating card, lock the user's hand in.
mats: the new usb3 standard has a lotta power, could shock a disobedient user real good
asciilifeform: many atm in usa are already in a kind of cage, where you need to first open door to a small booth using the card, and only then can use atm
asciilifeform: it would be a fairly small matter to refuse to let the victim out, if need be.
asciilifeform: wagen can collect him at leisure, after.
mats: virtually all of these i've seen have three glass walls on em
asciilifeform: lotta glass in usa.
asciilifeform: it is being replaced, in the 'harm cities', with cage.
asciilifeform: glass walls are a relic from the old imperial dayz.
asciilifeform: when the cage in the luser's head was cage enough.
mircea_popescu: anyway, re phf's "of course i thought about writing bbet" : the problem there's not "write the site", thats a trivial task to be done in a brief time by a single competent coder. the problem there, and the reson i'm not pushing for replacement, is "how to administer bets". and until i have a good idea i won't push for this, because it's ~futile as it is, will just pile busywork on some people for no actual benefit.
mircea_popescu: now, if someone either a) thinks they have the bright idea or b) welcome the busywork (not unrational, that's how you learn things) they're welcome obviously.
asciilifeform: bbet may well turn out to be one of those items which 'runs on human fat'
mircea_popescu: with the caveat that from experience, mike_c's attempt to make a site (and he made a very nice one) to test in practice some theories which we didn't agree on in theory did put a lot of load on him, and possibly in my mind burned the guy out.
asciilifeform: i.e. kamikaze labour that cannot possibly be +ev to those doing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i have the advantage of ready at my beak and call stable of otherwise intelligent, educated and detail-oriented womenz. i can soak up all sorts of unimaginable things the average "vc team" et all couldn't possibly.
asciilifeform: to an extent.
mircea_popescu: to an extent.
mats: whatever happened to the guy that was working on a wot cryptopoker thing
mircea_popescu: not much, sadly. that might be a much better idea for "Something to do", if anyone's looking.
phf: mats: "work" part consistently turns out to be hard :>
asciilifeform: mats: i thought that was you !
mircea_popescu: phf you should see what "make this shit 64 bit uniformly wtf is this" ends up being like.
mircea_popescu: neways, city calls so i shall be back later a bit.
phf: oh i've seen that code, so whoever worked on that migration is a saint
mats: i played with the idea but i need an alf (or a coupla years of free time to eat the prerequisite knowledge)
asciilifeform: mats: what specifically did you come to think you need ?
asciilifeform: (e.g., 'crypto algo that takes an x and a y and produces z..')
asciilifeform: perhaps i can push you in a useful direction ?
asciilifeform: ;;seen mike_c
gribble: mike_c was last seen in #trilema 14 weeks, 3 days, 15 hours, 30 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <mike_c> at least you won the 'most famous mircea popescu' award - https://duckduckgo.com/?q=mircea+popescu
mats: i'm not confident in my ability to write secure crypto
mats: or auditing it
asciilifeform: mats: did you (or anybody else...) ever come up with a 'crypto poker using btc' scheme, at all, that relies on protocol (vs promise) ?
asciilifeform: of whatever postulated crypto building blocks
asciilifeform: $s mental poker
asciilifeform: original concept is shamir's.
mats: not that I know of
asciilifeform: various refinements had been proposed over the years, but none, afaik, of any serious consequence.
asciilifeform: http://libtmcg.nongnu.org << possibly worth study.
mats: will read
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12162511443944070773219991934677582698468209730498855355911521948607449303537567609416882598773485743668093728963053579135929514188223460244897500435488727 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '197.221.61.38 (ssh-rsa key from 197.221.61.38 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+197.221.61.38@mkj.lt>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchla
asciilifeform: http://www.cs.tau.ac.il/~tromer/wondercrypt.html << moar classical readings for mats et al.
asciilifeform: 197.221.61.38 <<< hetzner in johannesburg !
asciilifeform: not consumer modem crapolade.
asciilifeform: mats, mircea_popescu, et al : just about any game can be played 'over bitcoin blockchain' and be 'provably fair', this is not the problem, but that ~nobody wants to pay the cost (in time and coin both) of playing over btc telegraph.
asciilifeform: it comes with whole raft of problems, incl. the inherently lethal 'mechanical connection to btc transmitter' bit.
asciilifeform: think bbet was doomed by 'gotta send 2 btc tx, one - player's, to play, one - bbet's, to pay bet' ?
asciilifeform: now try 100s of tx per game of poker...
asciilifeform: i'd guess players yearn for this like they yearn for a molten sodium turbine reactor in their living room.
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12162511443944070773219991934677582698468209730498855355911521948607449303537567609416882598773485743668093728963053579135929514188223460244897500435488727 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '197.221.63.150 (ssh-rsa key from 197.221.63.150 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+197.221.63.150@mkj.lt>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuc
deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12162511443944070773219991934677582698468209730498855355911521948607449303537567609416882598773485743668093728963053579135929514188223460244897500435488727 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '197.221.61.38 (ssh-rsa key from 197.221.61.38 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+197.221.61.38@mkj.lt>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchla
shinohai: i made pokarbot but only plays simple texas hold 'em rules
asciilifeform: ;;later tell trinque any idea why deedbot sometimes spits out a phuctoring twice ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-06 04:53 trinque: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=20015 << if the world ever rights "helpful" is going to be a euphemism for "tries to slip dick in when you turn your back"
asciilifeform: 'A working hostname lookup is a fundamental part of the system. -- Andreas.'
asciilifeform: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> linux-m68k.org>
asciilifeform: GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
ben_vulpes: phf: nobody's pushing the incompetence line
BingoBoingo hopes phf unveils S.EX and kind wonders why no one's chosen that ticker yet
shinohai: if i had capital to start a pr0n biz i'd call it that xD
jurov: S.HIT
BingoBoingo: jurov: Fertilizer company?
jurov: summer hits
danielpbarron: the poker thing need not be "provably fair" it only needs to have WoT integration -- not unlike Eulora
mircea_popescu: not that expensive to make it provably fair though.
mircea_popescu: dooglus contributed a lot of solid research to this ; the way he handed it in primedice with the salts and later copied by all the others works fine.
BingoBoingo: just-dice... primedice was other thing
a111: Logged on 2016-08-06 18:37 asciilifeform: mats: did you (or anybody else...) ever come up with a 'crypto poker using btc' scheme, at all, that relies on protocol (vs promise) ?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo o right you are. justdice
BingoBoingo: primedice bought forum ads, dooglus was the ad
BingoBoingo: for just-dice
mircea_popescu: anyway. decentralized don't enter into it. the way you play is that you have a dealer bot, which selects a string composed as a) "the hash of the latest known block whose height is divisible be 117 and is not in the last 117 found blocks" + b) a server generated salt for the day + c) a player generated salt, to be changed any time a player feels like. then for any dealt hand, the server concatenates a + b + c for each player
mircea_popescu: and hashes the result. this is the "rng". at end of day publishes day's salt concatenations for each played hand.
BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/Y4kxt << Aedes albopictus distribution for the record
mircea_popescu: the major problem in poker isn't "fair dealing", it's debotting it. but i have a ready solution for this problem too, and im persuaded it's complete.
BingoBoingo: $s Wolbachia
mircea_popescu: also none of the nonsense of "encrypt face down cards" via elgamal is needed.
mircea_popescu: as green correctly points out, "most of the pointless wank and useless crud in all stem fields were actually just unhappy accidents: the shit that stuck to the floor, walls and all crevices while imbeciles at MIT tried to feed themselves."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-06#1516215 << i have no idea who thinks this, but they'd be rather clueless and in any case wrong.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-06 18:54 asciilifeform: think bbet was doomed by 'gotta send 2 btc tx, one - player's, to play, one - bbet's, to pay bet' ?
mircea_popescu: on the contrary, bitbet made most of its money in retrospect by being canary in mine.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-06 19:02 asciilifeform: ;;later tell trinque any idea why deedbot sometimes spits out a phuctoring twice ?
mircea_popescu: "A working hostname lookup is a fundamental part of the system. ~Andreas."
mircea_popescu: motherFUCKER! really, bitch ? really ? YOU SAY WHAT IS A FUNDAMENTAL PART ?
mircea_popescu: fucking hell omfg.
mircea_popescu: heh i see that i'm not the first to notice.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-06 21:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-06#1516222 << 2 different ips there.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-06 19:01 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12162511443944070773219991934677582698468209730498855355911521948607449303537567609416882598773485743668093728963053579135929514188223460244897500435488727 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '197.221.61.38 (ssh-rsa key from 197.221.61.38 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+197.221.61
a111: Logged on 2016-08-06 18:43 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 12162511443944070773219991934677582698468209730498855355911521948607449303537567609416882598773485743668093728963053579135929514188223460244897500435488727 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '197.221.61.38 (ssh-rsa key from 197.221.61.38 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+197.221.61
asciilifeform: it isn't, incidentally, duped in my rss.
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/1byN
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mats: the tesla hype is real
mats: some idiot experiences a pulmonary event, relies on autopilot to travel ~20mi to hospital, and this is lauded as teh future! disabled people can drive places now! etc
jurov: asciilifeform: guess the rss implementation uses updated tag as primary key, and recent 2 entries have exactly same timestamp
mats: where's the fucking part where this guy (and others - who sleep at the wheel, play jenga, w/e) is found guilty of reckless endangerment?
jurov: consider adding some pseudorandom nanoseconds or such
mats: thing's not fully autonomous, what if he lost consciousness due to low oxygen, and road conditions required human judgment?
asciilifeform: jurov: this is not a solution, i refuse to scramble the order
asciilifeform: phuctorings that take place at same time, in same run of werker, get reported at same time.
asciilifeform: it is useful information and i see 0 reason to piss it away.
asciilifeform: mats: just wait until 'consumer comes to expect' and 1st lawsuit over the thing ~failing~ to get to hospital on time.
BingoBoingo: ty shinohai
shinohai kicks thestringpuller
mats: lol tokens you can use to buy equity in bitfinex? genius!
mats: asciilifeform: i don't see how any of it is workable tbh
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-06#1516146 << there was a whole thread about the thing in #trinquelandia
a111: Logged on 2016-08-06 18:10 asciilifeform: phf: see, i did not know that you implemented entire stack, always assumed that you had it hanging off znc or the like
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 589.47, vol: 5957.47681128 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 583.8, vol: 4155.2109 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 581.008698, vol: 96035.87600000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 591.758, vol: 1049.30568173 | Volume-weighted last average: 581.692347433
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 424048 | Current Difficulty: 2.0189321085305896E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 425375 | Next Difficulty In: 1327 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 19 hours, 20 minutes, and 28 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: mats i suspect you don't understand how anglo agitprop works.
mircea_popescu: mats> lol tokens you can use to buy equity in bitfinex? genius! << notrly, simply copy/paste from http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-05#1515112
a111: Logged on 2016-08-05 01:37 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo wanna bet they'll be right back trying to trade while insolvent, shtylman style ?
mats: >'In the meantime, In place of the loss in each wallet, we are crediting a token labeled BFX to record each customer’s discrete losses. Tokens will be distributed without release or waiver. The BFX tokens will remain outstanding until redeemed in full by Bitfinex or possibly exchanged—upon the creditor’s request and Bitfinex’s acceptance—for shares
mats: of iFinex Inc. We are still sorting out many details on this; we will post further updates in the coming days.'
mircea_popescu: heh. yep.
mircea_popescu: tried and true tool of scammer apparel.
shinohai: so buttfinex hacker told me he doesnt have a pgp key -_-
BingoBoingo: shinohai: Alleged
shinohai: si, *alleged
mats: i await mp intel that indicates inside job
mircea_popescu: no mp intervention needed, the lulz spindle seems to be working great neh ?
BingoBoingo: Anyways, intel would spoil the tears
mats: http://yarchive.net/comp/linux/efi.html << linus really belongs here
mircea_popescu: he does ; doesn't seem to know it jetzt.
BingoBoingo: Truth stranger than fiction https://archive.is/3TZoY
mircea_popescu: incidentally, anyone seen valerie a tyden divu ?
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/1bBQ
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: shinohai: To many non-people doing nothings in that one
asciilifeform: 'The allegation that the U.S. government is producing secret law has become increasingly common. This article evaluates this claim, examining the available evidence in all three federal branches. In particular, Congress’s governance of national security programs via classified addenda to legislative reports is here given the first focused scholarly treatment, including empirical analysis that shows references in Public Law to these c
asciilifeform: ermined that the secret law allegation is well founded in all three branches, the article argues that ... '
mircea_popescu: the very notion of secret "law"
mircea_popescu: wtf is with these people.
mircea_popescu: "scientists" with "secret" proof and never-seen "publications" ; bureaucrats with secret "law" ; financiers with "secret" resources that don't exist and "businessmen" in their own minds asking you to "sign their nda" to hear their "idea"
mircea_popescu: it's a fucking mental issue already.
mircea_popescu: also, the us congress is not a branch of us government.
mats: whats this now
mircea_popescu: i suppose the usians are special, they call government "Administration" and the state "government"
mats: in other news, .de seems to be building up the bundeswehr
mats: an extra 20k personnel and some billions - doesn't look nearly enough
mircea_popescu: their "congress" is a parliament. there's no such thing as "congress". words have meanings, even if the rural colonists never had a chance to visit a school or library.
mircea_popescu: yeah. what else are they gonna do ? it'll be cheaper to make it in germany than to buy it from trump.
mircea_popescu: by a huge margin, actually.
mircea_popescu: and unlike the ukistans, they actually have a shot at fielding something.
mircea_popescu: (22:35:16) >Daniel has got 0.81 BTC worth of Boulder and assorted loot while building. Congratulations! <
mircea_popescu: aw oops.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-07#1516321 << talmudism. they 'just want to' arbitrarily do whatever, to whomever, like orcs, and the window dressing of 'rule of law' is annoying, more importantly - too expensive to afford nowadays
a111: Logged on 2016-08-07 02:30 mircea_popescu: the very notion of secret "law"
asciilifeform: seeeekrit law is analogous to, e.g., 'dao' fork and every other 'unprincipled exception'.
mircea_popescu: the only problem with this approach is that it's utterly unsustainable. by the time "they just want to" that, the sword's all out of the sheath, and i'm way the fuck more likely to buy obama's daughters by the pound than they're to "win the war on x" or w/e the fuck.
asciilifeform: sustainable for just as long as everything else.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-07#1516329 << 'all hail the wehrmacht! i mean, the bundeswehr!! hail to our modern allieeees..' -- tom lehrer
a111: Logged on 2016-08-07 02:42 mats: in other news, .de seems to be building up the bundeswehr
mircea_popescu: hopefully they go all the way #3.
mircea_popescu: or #whatever, i kinda lost count. what's the official uber alles count ?
a111: Logged on 2016-08-07 00:29 mats: >'In the meantime, In place of the loss in each wallet, we are crediting a token labeled BFX to record each customer’s discrete losses. Tokens will be distributed without release or waiver. The BFX tokens will remain outstanding until redeemed in full by Bitfinex or possibly exchanged—upon the creditor’s request and Bitfinex’s acceptance—for shares
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-07#1516310 << on top of all of this, as if it were not enough: intel's bios crapolade, at least such as have been released or leaked, builds STRICTLY under winblowz. i shit thee not, MB of .bat.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-07 00:46 mats: http://yarchive.net/comp/linux/efi.html << linus really belongs here
asciilifeform: masm, even.
asciilifeform: i wish i were making this up...
asciilifeform: saw - alive.
covertress waves hi to mircea_pepescu
covertress: since this is your house
mircea_popescu: you got a new vacuum cleaner model ?
mats: lol
mats: jesus christ covertress your linkedin interview and blog is cringey
covertress: cringey?
mats: >For you more adventurous types, like me, you can dive into the world of cryptocurrency and diversify your wallet among a sea of alternatives to bitcoin. Dogecoin (internet tipping) and Gaiacoin (e-commerce platform) are two of my favorites.
mats: read the logs plz
covertress: no time. sorry too busy w rl work
covertress: ha. that old interview?
covertress: i was bored
mircea_popescu: how come you're not playing eulora btw ? diversify your portofolio with ecu!
mats: altcoins are retarded, covertress
covertress: i only bet on a sure thing. myself.
mats: totes
covertress: lol @ mats... srsly did
mats: me too
covertress: sorry, idk the dynamics of this feifdom and don't know who 'ranks'... but, fair warning.. im gonna call it like i see it
mircea_popescu: this curse of modernity, where nobody has any time to eat because everyone gotta cook all the time.
mircea_popescu: covertress so how much kr do 10 bitcents buy me ?
covertress: kr is currently .00011908 btc on bittrex
mircea_popescu: ;;calc .1 / .00011908
gribble: 839.77158213
mircea_popescu: does your middle name happen to be lynn btw ?
covertress: uc my gf
mats: i'll diversify my portfolio into dogecoin and gaiacoin just as soon as i scoop some bitfinex shares
covertress: d/b w giacoin dev left
mircea_popescu: actually, if you're part of the NOT!!1-corruption ring of the usg and have some hope of obtaining serviceable enforcement, it's not a terribru buy.
mats: who knows, maybe one of these three scams will unfuck itself
covertress: wow this is wierd cu all later
BingoBoingo: Oh, come on now this is no where near weird
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