Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-07-06 | 2015-07-08 → ↓
assbot: Occultation Section - Royal Astronomical Society of New Zealand ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ti60yN )
Vexual: you'll find the reduction tables for free at .mil
decimation: the point about occultations is that you can get tables of when they are supposed to occur for your area. you don't need a fancy telescope, usually cheap bionoculars would suffice for observation
decimation: find predictions for the time they are to occur and compare with your clock under test
decimation: as asciilifeform pointed out this comparison would involve some time conversions
Vexual: indeed
Vexual: you'll do best to learn it with out of date info
asciilifeform: very much useless for our current problem, i must again point out
asciilifeform: pogo needs to plug into the wall and immediately fight
asciilifeform: !up Vexual
decimation: asciilifeform: true, but if one person can find time and verify for themselves, they can provide services for others
Vexual: i cant see a solution mut mp's
decimation: even hitler can't move the moon's path
asciilifeform: but he can diddle packets in flight
asciilifeform: which is good enough
Vexual: let the nodes confirm it
decimation: aye, signed ntp server would be needed
asciilifeform: which gets nuked
asciilifeform: and you're back to square one
decimation: or a large collection of them run by enthusiastic hobbyists
asciilifeform: we have this now
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53301 @ 0.00054631 = 29.1189 BTC [+] {4}
asciilifeform: it is worthless
decimation: the hobbyists rarely bother with pki ntp
asciilifeform: hardcoded keys suck
asciilifeform: it is gavinism.
decimation: as in, a symmetric pair for time transmission?
asciilifeform: as in having keys in the box at all when it ships
asciilifeform: of any kind
asciilifeform: enemy captures magic private key, game over
mats: asciilifeform: ever looked at safe stack in your professional adventures?
asciilifeform: mats: nope
decimation: asciilifeform: agreed, which is why you would need several different keys from different providers
asciilifeform: decimation: thing is, we don't have a network where you connect by key instead of by ip
decimation: asciilifeform: https://github.com/zrm/snow < I thought this could be it, but then saw the deps list
assbot: zrm/snow · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1ClX3At )
asciilifeform: mats: what is interesting about it ?
decimation: "snow is a layer 3 virtual network that abstracts the underlying network and allows public keys to be used in place of IP addresses. "
asciilifeform: decimation: looks like a cheap clone of tor-onion
asciilifeform: astonishingly useless no matter how implemented
asciilifeform: openssl or not
asciilifeform: because ultimately there are servers and 'magic' ips.
asciilifeform: just like tor dies if the directory servers are ever unplugged.
asciilifeform: (despite pretenses to the contrary)
mats: moves stack based buffers to another segment, then stores reference
asciilifeform: mats: as a rule, i am entirely uninterested in 'mitigations'
asciilifeform: e.g., 'aslr'
mats: :(
asciilifeform: because they are expressions of surrender, of 'willing to live with' a pit of liquid shit
asciilifeform: the thing to do with shit is to burn it.
asciilifeform: until nothing remains.
Vexual: cost is involved
asciilifeform: not 'live with' it.
mats: some folks gotta live with it
mats: others wanna exploit it
asciilifeform: mats: even the exploiting, i find, is deadly boring
asciilifeform: the kind typically done by armies of coolies, 'fuzzing'
asciilifeform: i have no wish to be a coolie.
asciilifeform: or to be present anywhere at all in that supply chain.
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah 'snow' seems to try to maintain a dht across the peers
asciilifeform: decimation: for a successful example of this, see 'kademlia'
mats: we diverge on this point
decimation: how do you maintain such a dht without giving enemy a dictionary of ips to attack
mats: thats the primary thing driving my interest in studying windows at all
asciilifeform: decimation: you don't. the notion was that 'too many to hang'
mats: otherwise i wouldn't subject myself to it
asciilifeform: mats: the fungible coolie 0day isn't the only kind there is, you know
asciilifeform: there is also the 'sui generis'
asciilifeform: the kind you find by looking where literally nobody else has thought to look, perhaps even using tooling that literally no one else has.
Vexual: champagnes protected
asciilifeform: and, in the ultimate case, the kind created by somebody who was sure that it would never be looked for.
asciilifeform: some smirking 'plum book' stuffed shirt who thinks that his ph.d. makes him a god
Vexual: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg-RIOATCbU
asciilifeform: and that the only opponent is 'raghead' in goatfuckistan
mats: well, i meant exploitation is what interests me
mats: i don't care about fuzzing at all, folks have much better tooling than i do, and i have no resources of any kind to aid me in that
asciilifeform: then have to be very particular
mats: computing power or particularly deep knowledge of the maths theory involved
mats: if the latter is even necessary, i have no idea
asciilifeform: doesn't hurt to know some maths
asciilifeform: enough to understand, e.g., 'phuctor'
Vexual: ^failed
asciilifeform: basic discretes is more important
asciilifeform: e.g., my current colleagues were very surprised when i told them about needleman-wunsch and how one can make a non-retarded binary 'diff'
asciilifeform: this was not taught to them
asciilifeform: other pertinent maths include the proof of why 'homomorphic obfuscator' is impossible in the general case
asciilifeform confesses that he did not know this proof, and, as a student, wasted a great deal of time trying to devise such a thing
asciilifeform: and then of course there is basic crypto, but i am deliberately not mentioning it
asciilifeform: anyone else have examples of 'maths an exploiter must know' ?
asciilifeform: the 'byzantine generals' paper.
mats: i was under the impression 'diff' implements a variation on 'needleman-wunsch'
asciilifeform: lamport (same as of the 'generals') clock.
mats: can't remember the name of the algo, though
asciilifeform: mats: traditional diff, afaik, did not
asciilifeform: more modern incarnations - hell knows
decimation: it would be useful to know basic algorithms and associated time estimates
asciilifeform: well these every civilized person knows
asciilifeform: (e.g. what 'O(N)' or 'O(N^2)' means)
mats: lol
mats: week one computer science.
Vexual: i saw funkensteins man playin, i could smell the 03
mats: im off to eat an entire large papa johns pizza and re-read chapterhouse (dune)
mats: have a good one
decimation: good night
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11930 @ 0.00054616 = 6.5157 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32689 @ 0.00055396 = 18.1084 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Generate calling graph for C++ code - Stack Overflow ... ( http://bit.ly/1KNH27p )
asciilifeform: yeah linked it earlier, iirc
asciilifeform: possibly ben_vulpes or trinque might give it a shot
decimation: yeah, gonna take makefile dicking
decimation to bed
asciilifeform: other thing is, ideally the graph would be in some logical arrangement
asciilifeform: rather than just 'what fits'
asciilifeform also to bed
trinque: in fact I built llvm and clang earlier today
trinque: might take a swing at it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59109 @ 0.0005361 = 31.6883 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50450 @ 0.00054922 = 27.7081 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17514 @ 0.000553 = 9.6852 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71400 @ 0.00052548 = 37.5193 BTC [-] {4}
BingoBoingo rebuilding 0.7-ish client for lulzier version string
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18200 @ 0.00051599 = 9.391 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31033 @ 0.00055342 = 17.1743 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53500 @ 0.00053942 = 28.859 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14752 @ 0.00053942 = 7.9575 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23500 @ 0.00054456 = 12.7972 BTC [+] {2}
cazalla: Vexual, no idea, i think they actually provide the space to others
cazalla: !up Vexual
Vexual: thats what i thought
Vexual: they kinda ghosted after that
Vexual: 3 months free commercial rent, sublet desks at the same rate, voila
Vexual: i havent read the prospectus
Vexual: u say they obtained asicminer hashes in jan tho?
Vexual: kakobrekla: doyou do AXJO?
Vexual: zt has fury and spoonies
cazalla: i read it last night.. they want 20 million to buy more miners with
Vexual: thats less than dcc
cazalla: i think dcc shitcanned their mining or at least onsold their capacity
Vexual: yes, but they did it smooth like
Vexual: i think maybe the spoonies in iceland is rented
cazalla: well that is where bitcoin group claim they mine, that and china
cazalla: for something like 0.5% of the hashrate
Vexual: i like the model
Vexual: dcc chpped hashfast
cazalla: well bitcoin group lost like 250k mining so the model is really just finding people to bail em out
Vexual: dunno when the lease is up
Vexual: ahhh right, i dint red
assbot: Russian farmer starts currency backed by potatoes - Business Insider ... ( http://bit.ly/1JKYmez )
Vexual: do they mention the office space in melb?
Vexual: i like the model
cazalla: yeah, that lee guy uses it as proof he has a solid reputation in the bitcoin community.. hai guyz i run a bitcoin meetup so pls gief me 20 mirrion dorrah
Vexual: itll sell
cazalla: prolly
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11904 @ 0.00055426 = 6.5979 BTC [+]
Vexual: to have been a fly on the wall
Vexual: i think i mentioned the free rent
cazalla: capped, can't load shit
Vexual: mandarin?
cazalla: fkn internets in this country..
Vexual: tell me about it
Vexual: we should be running more pipes
punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?
cazalla: part 2 of that report on ndrangheta was on last night, did ya see that Vexual ?
Vexual: yes
punkman: !up Vexual
Vexual: i liked the general there of private enterprise
Vexual: *theme
Vexual: i missed the first one
Vexual: but the 2nd had less vanstone
cazalla: both of em were a bit beat up
Vexual: some cop got shot in the head last night in melb too
cazalla: so i hear, took a shot gun to the face and walked away unscatched, prob bullshit story
Vexual: chase cancelled
Vexual: smh carried the story of 2.2 milly paid to courts, no names
Vexual: vanstone was on tell today, she looks well ruined
cazalla: prob only because it was a joint 4corners/fairfax story
Vexual: nothing new
cazalla: bbl
Vexual: i got in on that private guam pipe, that was a winner
Vexual: guam?
Vexual: anyway, the bandwitch was already sold
assbot: Gentoo Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1JL0QJY )
trinque: a couple nasty ones in there https://security.gentoo.org/
assbot: Gentoo Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1JL0V0j )
punkman: are those libraries widely used?
punkman: (International Components for Unicode)
trinque: firefox on my system uses it.
trinque: among other things
Vexual: thats wildly innappropriate
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38500 @ 0.00055426 = 21.339 BTC [+]
punkman: "professional scholars of international relations" "30 percent of American researchers in the field say that they have a working knowledge of no language other than English, and more than half say that they rarely or never cite non-English sources in their work."
assbot: Modern Art Was Used As a Torture Technique in Prison Cells During the Spanish Civil War | Open Culture ... ( http://bit.ly/1dJi6kp )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19400 @ 0.00055853 = 10.8355 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8575 @ 0.00055895 = 4.793 BTC [+]
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190768 therealaltcoin *does* have a mechanism to scale down difficulty. plenty good does it do.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:09:24; punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190188 >> in fact, i did once negrate kako for fake "broker of the year" badges...
jurov: they aren't still there only cuz mircea_popescu mediated it
BingoBoingo: So much history
kakobrekla: such scammer
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4526 @ 0.00054843 = 2.4822 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2335 @ 0.00055897 = 1.3052 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23065 @ 0.00056224 = 12.9681 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29527 @ 0.00056318 = 16.629 BTC [+] {2}
Adlai: !b 1
assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2Y6WYBS.txt )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8295 @ 0.0005643 = 4.6809 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32924 @ 0.00056697 = 18.6669 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Black Flag Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1dJr5SI )
assbot: APNewsBreak: Cosby said he got drugs to give women for sex - Yahoo News ... ( http://bit.ly/1dJrq7V )
cazalla: hey hey hey
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51300 @ 0.00054806 = 28.1155 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36340 @ 0.00055224 = 20.0684 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13202 @ 0.00054727 = 7.2251 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20797 @ 0.00056001 = 11.6465 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56166 @ 0.00054614 = 30.6745 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform uh. the one published actually encompasses the first fork. i have other chains (also historical) that aren't wedged, but i had thought yours passed that point ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16375 @ 0.00053429 = 8.749 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 22:18:29; TomServo: Ahoy all, just wanted to pass long: my 0.5.3 node is humming along, currently reporting blockheight 364171.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190161 << roflmao. "oh hello we are a cutting edge bleedin' tech company. what we do is we put tickets in cloudflare."
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 22:34:34; pete_dushenski: "CoinbaseAdrian 30 points an hour ago* : Sorry guys, we're looking into this. It appears to be an issue with our network provider (Cloudflare). We have an urgent ticket open with them and I'll update here with any details." << response to coinbase being offline
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the entire timing discussion : suppose the pogo gets started always with a realtime switch, -time=14blablabla, and after that gets its time from the most recent block it accepts and checks for next ones being within +-7200 seconds.
mircea_popescu: obviously, a kludge.
shinohai: I am at height 361167 his morning. Agonizingly slow.
mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 360472 | Current Difficulty: 47589591153.625 | Next Difficulty At Block: 360863 | Next Difficulty In: 391 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 weeks, 3 days, 10 hours, 22 minutes, and 2 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: i beg your pardon ?
punkman: lol
shinohai: Either gribble is off or I am xD
mircea_popescu: "o hai folks i'm talking from day after tomorrow. time is moving by really really too slow!!!1"
punkman: gribble is stuck
punkman: 364240 is current height
mircea_popescu: i think we should have a network vote.
mircea_popescu: everyone that thinks i should have smoked cheese and salmon breakfast, make your blocks v 666
mircea_popescu: everyone that thinks i should have creme fraiche and strawberries, make your blocks v 1337
mircea_popescu: best way to end up eating pork and beans or something
shinohai: Lox and eggs for me this morning.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190226 << the point that "bitcoin core" = unsafe at any version is really not made often enough.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35150 @ 0.00053178 = 18.6921 BTC [-]
shinohai: She looks tall enough to ride this ride.
shinohai: Just noticed dat tat
mircea_popescu: "Market forces will prevail and miners will have to adapt." loller.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00053461 = 10.5853 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: i thought reddit didn't believe in "market forces".
shinohai: reddit believes *they* are the market force, or so I thought.
assbot: Bitcoin Number Of transactions Per Day ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ha0HZy )
punkman: apparently 200l+ transactions today
punkman: *200k
mircea_popescu: yeah, basically, whenever the market forces do what they expect they're all market-force-y, and when the market forces tell them to go dangle they're all democaca-y
mircea_popescu: which is a sort of macaque.
mircea_popescu: punkman there's some derps putting in like 1mn txn for 1 btc total fees.
mircea_popescu: which has the excellent side effect of taking the piss out of all the redditard "unbanked" who were used to pay 0 fees.
shinohai: So that explains the slow tx times today
mircea_popescu: been going for weeks.
punkman: does 0.0001 still get you in next block?
mircea_popescu: iirc thats what they pay.
mircea_popescu: so make it 0.00011 or something.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:09:17; decimation: unfortunately blockheight is only a solid concept in retrospect
mircea_popescu: might have been 0.00001 what they paid, i dun recall. look at the backlog should be obvious
shinohai: I thought that the 0.1% per 1 BTC transacted was reasonable, as set out in the Declaration of Sovereignty.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190265 << a very stupid system incidentally. mirroring the unixtime idiocy. just take the cesium, base everytrhing on that.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:13:06; decimation: point being, someone derives time (the iers) from astronomy, sets the cesium, and broadcasts it
punkman: "I run the restaurant from 1996, its a family business. I work here with my father and my mother. We only cook traditional Greek food. We accept Bitcoin for payments. They have come 6-8 people pay with Bitcoin from Spain, France, Italy, Ireland, Luxembourg but i hope for more people with Bitcoins"
mircea_popescu: shinohai unrelated things tho. a tx is a tx, it charges by byte.
punkman: 6-8 people since 2012 :D
mircea_popescu: punkman nb. name/address ?
assbot: Page Redirection ... ( http://bit.ly/1gl86Qh )
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190266 << so far the balance of what i got was "man this site is confusing" in various tongues.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:13:16; asciilifeform: unrelated: folks competing for mircea_popescu's 1 btc prize for therealbitcoin callgraph can strike 'egypt' utility off the list. it is a worthless pile of shit, which produces worthless piles of shit (at least for cpp proggy)
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190284 << "if you need it, you'll have to write it" rule of nature stands undisturbed.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:17:01; asciilifeform: total waste of time.
kakobrekla: punkman you are greek?
mircea_popescu: i suppose we progressed from moore law's to this noore law.
punkman: I'm transgreek
mircea_popescu: ahahaha.
mircea_popescu: wasn't he from crete ?
mircea_popescu: which is greek in the sense etruria is latin ?
punkman: aye, Creta is nice
shinohai imagines punkman as a Spartan
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:23:25; asciilifeform: because i won't be running it.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190323 << bwahahaha who the fuck does these things.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 00:27:26; asciilifeform: and unable to distinguish between functions of same name in different classes
kakobrekla: greek islands are the best. i very much enjoyed them, perhaps mykonos the most. jurov would love it there, im sure.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190359 << i dun get it past "ru govt stole some dude's money".
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 01:36:51; asciilifeform: so apparently they had to take the bank by storm.
mircea_popescu: 99999 Protocol version loller
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/nodes/195.211.154.159-8333/ << lulz mebbe worth a write-up ?
assbot: 195.211.154.159:8333 - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/1gl8Chj )
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:11:39; asciilifeform: difficulty oughta have been defined in relation to the difficulty of the last solved block, solely.
mircea_popescu: the "difficulty of last solved block" does not exist
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 473 @ 0.00408605 = 1.9327 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: in that difficulty is a statistical measure and statistics of sets of one is undefined.
punkman: difficulty target is a number
mircea_popescu: that it is.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18700 @ 0.00053144 = 9.9379 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: for students of the bitcoin protocol actually interested in learning how it works, create a list of all block hashes, calculate implied difficulty on that basis, compare to actual difficulty at the time and calculate variance etc. nice graphs to be had.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190423 << experimentally, i have a lot more faith in things that barely survive than in Britannia eternal. experimentally, the former do survive, the latter crash on the jagged shores of time.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:21:03; asciilifeform: the thing barely survives today, much less ww3
Adlai: mircea_popescu: too bad only the dumb&industrious students will do that. the smart&lazy just go to sipa's charts...
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190434 << the hardware belongs to miners. miners direct the hashing at pools, doing very little validation whatsoever. so, 100% of mining power does in fact not run bitcoin at all.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:26:24; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: unless i seriously misunderstand, 50%+ of the hash rate belongs to folks ~who aren't even running bitcoin~ but a toystore version
mircea_popescu: then, of THOSE POOLS it turned out that ~50% are too confused to even lie.
mircea_popescu: they simply say things that bear an impredictable (to them first of all) relationship to reality.
mircea_popescu: Adlai this sort of smartness i'll gladly do without.
mircea_popescu: it is the smartness of the nor merely dumb, but unrescuably so.
mircea_popescu: (yes, there's a smartness of the dumb, like there's a richness of the poor and a cleanliness of the filthy and honesty of politicians and so on and so forth.)
Adlai: eloquence of the mute
mircea_popescu: now that actually works.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190446 << riiight. hopefully they call them service packs.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 02:45:29; assbot: Why Ubuntu plans to replace traditional Linux packages with something better | PCWorld ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJqEnF )
punkman: heh
mircea_popescu: lmao decimation ends up putting a dime in the pot ?
punkman: shinohai imagines punkman as a Spartan << here have a cretan instead http://gallery.photo.net/photo/4849567-md.jpg
Adlai: vanity address of a stressed tester
shinohai: punkman: I like it, he smokes.
kakobrekla: dunno, my txes get confirmed in first block w/o any fees. you people don't know how to curate your outputs.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you have old coinbases.
mircea_popescu: we're talking the problems of poorfags here.
kakobrekla: old, big, curated etc
mircea_popescu: aham. but all the curation in the world won
mircea_popescu: 't help your .5 btc you just got from coinbase.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 03:38:12; mats: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/how-bitcoin-is-disrupting-argentinas-economy.html << news of your celebrity in .ar, bagels7
assbot: Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ha9vyF )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6500 @ 0.0005312 = 3.4528 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: the "press" is on a repeater mode with that crud
mircea_popescu: it has exactly 0 reporting value.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190599 << you have changed nothing in the scheme, just made its problems perhaps less easy to observe because hey, frantic activity with b inoculars now.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:01:47; decimation: find predictions for the time they are to occur and compare with your clock under test
mircea_popescu: what is the difference between ntp telling you what time it is and *tp telling you what to observe ?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190669 << there are so many of these by now, all it takes is a little phuctor scratching to send the hive crazy.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:17:52; asciilifeform: and, in the ultimate case, the kind created by somebody who was sure that it would never be looked for.
mircea_popescu: because "people" of the pale complexion have allowed themselves to be trained in such god-awful conformity, and the space of possibilities has lain fallow for so long, to be shat into by alf's smirking plumbooker, that it's getting fucking filled.
assbot: OneRNG - Hardware Random Number Generator ... ( http://bit.ly/1glaxCo )
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:26:43; *: asciilifeform confesses that he did not know this proof, and, as a student, wasted a great deal of time trying to devise such a thing
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190714 << i thought alphabetical the most logical tbh.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:42:30; asciilifeform: other thing is, ideally the graph would be in some logical arrangement
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 06:55:52; cazalla: well bitcoin group lost like 250k mining so the model is really just finding people to bail em out
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190800 << which explains why they gotta be both "professionals" and "scholars'. random schmucks not a good enough descriptor, specifically ebcause it fits so well.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:51:18; punkman: "professional scholars of international relations" "30 percent of American researchers in the field say that they have a working knowledge of no language other than English, and more than half say that they rarely or never cite non-English sources in their work."
mircea_popescu: then stolfi wonders whether i want to be this or that title. as if a title is in any way useful or related to me.
mircea_popescu: but hey. professional scholars. all that fits in their head are names.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12251 @ 0.00053486 = 6.5526 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: the names of the places they'll never see. what exactly is the difference between an academitard and a housewife watching discovery channel i shall never know.
punkman: does US have translators that only speak English?
mircea_popescu: they both engage in making predictions, which are about as interesting and useful.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23763 @ 0.0005312 = 12.6229 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190807 << actually, muh intel found the exact stuff fca derps are derping about today, soime point in 2013. kakobrekla got put through some questioning at the time, which iirc is on the public record
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 08:27:37; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190188 >> in fact, i did once negrate kako for fake "broker of the year" badges...
mircea_popescu: in the end it came to exactly the same thing, not scammed anyone to anyone's knowledge, and why exactly would i put so much power in the hands of inept fiat "regulatory bodies"
punkman: it was an old article, I also posted it before I think
mircea_popescu: could be.
punkman: can't find it in the logs :(
mircea_popescu: in any case i recall f.mpif had an investment with a derivative something for a few months.
mircea_popescu: but iirc the star trader quit and the fund closed down or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: anyway, if he does the assbot thing i'm definitely going to allow selected l2 people to manage f.mpif pcs.
mircea_popescu: should be the fun of all time.
kakobrekla: well, not really quit, but euro decided to go to shit and specifications of fund did not go along with that
punkman: why is assbot wallet needed for mpif pcs?
mircea_popescu: punkman cuz i say ?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla a, right, volatility went up right then
mircea_popescu: i recall now.
punkman: mircea_popescu: well, sure.
kakobrekla: there was just one possible winning move, short and dont look.
mircea_popescu: anyway, im out. bbl.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21050 @ 0.00053486 = 11.2588 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00053307 = 12.3672 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28600 @ 0.00053591 = 15.327 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: HSBC employees sacked after staging ISIS-style mock execution during team building exercise | Descrier News ... ( http://bit.ly/1JRt96I )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22418 @ 0.0005312 = 11.9084 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42600 @ 0.00053854 = 22.9418 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34356 @ 0.0005405 = 18.5694 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60600 @ 0.0005312 = 32.1907 BTC [-]
mats: nobody can take a joke anymore
shinohai: Oh, the article you must mean
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190832 << yes. node - synced (as discussed yesterday.) wanted copy for study.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 10:50:32; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform uh. the one published actually encompasses the first fork. i have other chains (also historical) that aren't wedged, but i had thought yours passed that point ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190838 << pogo has to work when plugged into the wall! what 'switch' ?!! and you cannot learn ~anything~ about the current time from a purported block. this is circular logic!1111 block is only valid ~if~ within 2h of current time. any backflow can and will result in enemies 'nudging' the time
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 10:58:01; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the entire timing discussion : suppose the pogo gets started always with a realtime switch, -time=14blablabla, and after that gets its time from the most recent block it accepts and checks for next ones being within +-7200 seconds.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20200 @ 0.00053472 = 10.8013 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: 'gets its time from the most recent block it accepts' is a logical impossibility given the current algo for 'accept'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10050 @ 0.00054057 = 5.4327 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190896 << by far the most interesting thing here is that every cpp programmer needs this. and it is available from dozens of vendors, as winblowz turdware of course. because ~nobody else uses cpp~ for anything
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:17:05; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190284 << "if you need it, you'll have to write it" rule of nature stands undisturbed.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190906 << if i can't see how it made it, and repeat the process, it is useless to me
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:19:01; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190307 << if it makes the svg it made the svg eh.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190911 << perhaps i should explain. dude was an odious, moralizing twerp, who played the 'holier than thou' game for ages. ru law requires ministers to declare income. he declared perhaps 1% of it. nailed fair and square. and if there is some way for him to have made that dough other than straight bribery, monkeys will fly from my arse.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:22:36; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190359 << i dun get it past "ru govt stole some dude's money".
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190921 << precisely. what i was suggesting is to monotonically move the target 'harder'.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:26:51; punkman: difficulty target is a number
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52400 @ 0.00054525 = 28.5711 BTC [+] {3}
asciilifeform: say, you get n blocks at a given target, and then the bit slides.
shinohai: Whelp looks like I am stuck on block 363726
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:51:46; shinohai: http://onerng.info/
asciilifeform: !s onerng
assbot: 11 results for 'onerng' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=onerng
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:52:03; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190686 << i still do not approve of the proof.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190971 << absolutely not. the most 'connected' node of the graph ought to live in the center of field of vision, and so forth
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 11:52:58; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190714 << i thought alphabetical the most logical tbh.
punkman: asciilifeform: how do we do infinite growth on the mining side though?
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 07:09:24; punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?
asciilifeform: punkman: for what do you need the infinite growth ?
punkman: asciilifeform: monotonically increasing difficulty
asciilifeform: punkman: the solution, i now realize, is difficulty which ratchets based on actual mass of work
asciilifeform: rather than time or block count
asciilifeform: so target would move once sufficient work matches a harder target
asciilifeform: (how to make this recurse correctly is an exercise for the reader)
asciilifeform: as for why anyone would willingly move the target by solving a harder-than-required one - this ought to be obvious
punkman: so I use a lot of hashing power for 1 hour and then make you wait 1 month for next block?
asciilifeform: (miners want to fuck up other miners more than they wish to do anything else, it turns out)
asciilifeform: punkman: this works only if you are the world champion by an unreasonable margin
asciilifeform: which is why it only happens to crackpot altcoins
asciilifeform: where such 'champions' exist
asciilifeform: my point here is that the time thing ~will~ have to be solved, because it is by far the most comically usg-dependent aspect of bitcoin
asciilifeform: network time is an extremely fragile political fiction
decimation: asciilifeform: what about waiting for a few hours to observe several blocks upon pogo boot?
asciilifeform: and to the extent bitcoind depends on it, it is broken by design.
asciilifeform: decimation: the blocks can be 'time travelers'
asciilifeform: transmitted just for the purpose of fucking with pogo
asciilifeform: must understand, time is presently a criterion in whether a block is a block
decimation: wouldn't they be rejected if 2 hours away?
asciilifeform: from what/??
asciilifeform: we have no clock on powerup!
decimation: yes, connect to a couple of remote nodes, wait for several blocks to verify (while keeping your own clock)
asciilifeform: say i feed your pogo the entire sequence of blocks 0,5000 with the period times. now it believes that it's 2009 ?
asciilifeform: decimation: sybils
decimation: yes, but your sybil objection applies to all of bitcoin
asciilifeform: not in so far as it depends on proof of work
asciilifeform: rather than clocks
decimation: how does anyeone know they aren't being fed bullshit?
asciilifeform: because proof of work.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31276 @ 0.00054622 = 17.0836 BTC [+]
decimation: precisely
asciilifeform: whereas we have no means of agreeing on the time.
decimation: do you trust your own clock on the pogo?
asciilifeform: pogo is able to keep time, in the relative sense, similar to how msdos did (periodic interrupt)
asciilifeform: but has no notion whatsoever of political time on power-up
Adlai: asciilifeform: actually, it also happens to non-crackpot altcoins (if such a thing exists), and multipools need to take care not to mine them too hard and kill their own geese
decimation: precisely. pogo starts its own stopwatch, and starts watching for blocks to verify
assbot: Bitcoin Blocks At Height 363736 ... ( http://bit.ly/1HKcswk )
asciilifeform: decimation: presently, by definition they cannot verify
decimation: over time, a chain is built which contains timestamps and relative timestamps from the pogo
asciilifeform: because clock thinks it is 1969
asciilifeform: and so genesis block is more than 2h in the future
decimation: then the pogo can average the timestamps relative to its own samples of block times
asciilifeform: if you allow purported blocks to set your rtc, you are setting yourself up for a rewind attack
asciilifeform: if you allow it to ever move the rtc at all!
asciilifeform: please think about it
decimation: I agree but the enemy would have to know that this is a pogo vs. other bitcoin node
decimation: and the node feeding bullshit would be easily identified by a running bitcoind
Adlai: these guys have had trouble milking the udders off their cows: https://prohashing.com/help.html#payouts-computation
asciilifeform: i can feed you easy blocks from the past and move the average wherever i want
asciilifeform: decimation: once we are in the position of trying to 'identify bullshit' we're lost in the sea.
asciilifeform: the thing is supposed to be solidly automatic.
asciilifeform: with no display, keyboard, or setup ritual
decimation: why not "reject all blocks before timestamp X" for the purpose of setting clock
asciilifeform: the point which i am trying - and apparently failing - to make, is that the bitcoin protocol as we know it requires time to be an invariant, by which blocks are judged
asciilifeform: and never the reverse
asciilifeform: i didn't design the thing
asciilifeform: but it is screamingly apparent from the design
asciilifeform: and breaking it this way is certain to have unforeseen effects
asciilifeform: (some of which i foresee quite clearly)
asciilifeform: if you set the clock based on what is happening on the bitcoin network in any way, you are then in a state of sin.
asciilifeform: (to borrow von neumann's phrase)
decimation: agreed, it is self referential
decimation: but apparently setting it with a sextant is also a terrible idea?
asciilifeform: because needs hands
asciilifeform: it has to plug into the wall and go!
decimation: right, so push button plus astronomer in your wot
asciilifeform: button that does what ?
asciilifeform: hardcoded ip ?
decimation: nope. has clock, you set
asciilifeform: like an alarm clock ?
decimation: sure why not
asciilifeform: pogo has no buttons and no displays.
decimation: well, that's a difficulty
asciilifeform: you go to war with the pogo you have, not the pogo you wish you had, to borrow a bushism
asciilifeform: i'd put an oven oscillator in there, and 50 years of lithium battery, sure
decimation: the only 'fix' in that case is a separate box that serves time, under your own control
asciilifeform: but we haven't this option.
asciilifeform: we haven't any additional hardware
asciilifeform: adding so much as a shoelace to pogo would multiply the cost.
assbot: DS3232 Extremely Accurate I²C RTC with Integrated Crystal and SRAM - Maxim ... ( http://bit.ly/1HKdmsR )
asciilifeform: there is ~no shortage~ of parts for this
asciilifeform: we just don't have the option to use any of them.
asciilifeform: so much as opening pogo and touching inside multiplies the cost of the operation.
asciilifeform: incidentally, there is even an empty landing pad inside for rtc
asciilifeform: (it was designed for one!)
asciilifeform: but again, having this done would not only multiply the cost of the unit but add many times its cost in logistics to wherever this is done and then again to the destination.
asciilifeform: (...and then someone has to set the fucking clocks and wrap them back in the crate? who will it be? you? me? mircea_popescu?)
thestringpuller: i vote asciilifeform since he doesn't like leaving the house
asciilifeform: the other thing about the whole 'let's piss on the bitcoin protocol and let blockchain move the clock' thing is that it does ~NOT~ guarantee the required accuracy!
asciilifeform: drift by more than 2h and you're not only fucked, but will mislead others
asciilifeform: (depending on how the clock sync is done)
asciilifeform: this is a potentially catastrophic situation
asciilifeform: whereas if you rely on blocks, rather than nodes, you are permitting miners to induce clockdriftforks!
asciilifeform: which promises to be hilarious
asciilifeform: try to remember that we are talking about deploying potentially thousands of these
asciilifeform: the behaviour of these boxes ~actually matters~
asciilifeform: in that extreme dysfunction could actually frag the net
asciilifeform: in the worst case, converting them to sybils in the service of the enemy.
asciilifeform: i do not at present know of a non-retarded solution
asciilifeform: but it will have to come out of somebody's arse
asciilifeform: because the only alternative is retardation
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu find the time to visit 'arkakao' and load up on the highest octane sugar-bomb you can! and try to conceive of a solution to this mega-conundrum
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: i shall be doing the equivalent, this week
asciilifeform: because this is a truly dire problem, it cannot be waved away.
asciilifeform: i will leave this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push the next fellow, like in a crowded train ?
asciilifeform: letting nodes set own clocks based on what they can see on the net is rather like the train pushers.
asciilifeform: yes, they move...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00054868 = 9.7116 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: for folks who are seriously working on the problem: i presently suspect that the solution will resemble some mix of 'lamport clock' and 'the firing squad problem'
jurov: so, to summarize. 1. time can't come from net because net ==== usg. 2. time can't come from any additional hw cuz cost
asciilifeform: ntp == usg
asciilifeform: bitcoin net == self-referential
jurov: the objections can be extended to any other protocol
thestringpuller: can't we just use sundials or something
asciilifeform: additional hw could be acceptable if we find somebody selling usb clocks, battery included, for a few bux
assbot: bitcoin/main.cpp at 9546a977d354b2ec6cd8455538e68fe4ba343a44 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JRIhRu )
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: machine with no keyboard, or display, or presumption of literate owner
punkman: I don't see local time in there
assbot: bitcoin/chain.h at ce56f5621a94dcc2159ebe57e43da727eab18e6c · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JRIowv )
jurov: why going to such contortions with time before the rest of proto is secured?
asciilifeform: punkman: we already know that it is a monstrous perversion that has approximately same relation to bitcoin as american 'chocolate' does to chocolate
asciilifeform: jurov: because ~we don't have a workable scheme~ for pogo
asciilifeform: presently
jurov: i'm fine with ntp
asciilifeform: i firmly believe that all of the answers proposed so far are disastrously bad
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37250 @ 0.00055025 = 20.4968 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: ntp has serious problems even aside from the central control
asciilifeform: as a protocol
jurov: and when there's whispernet, it can do time, too
asciilifeform: hell, n00bz to this channel get ddosed with what else if not a thousand ntp boxes !
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28573 @ 0.00055872 = 15.9643 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: jurov: i personally am not very interested in building a weapon of war which enemy can turn off, collectively, by flipping a switch
jurov: oh i forgot to add to summary 3. no maintenance
asciilifeform: jurov: unless i am mistaken, the plan was to deploy these to the homes of cooperating civilians
asciilifeform: for 100% unattended operation
jurov: if they're going to ddos known pogo addresses then this has no solution
asciilifeform: don't have known addresses
asciilifeform: or ddos mechanisms which preferentially affect pogo.
asciilifeform: 'don't be poor'
asciilifeform: we know the basic shape of the answer, just not the particulars.
jurov: and how'd pogos masquerade? scanning and identifying btc nodes is easy
asciilifeform: who, precisely, can ddos (in the traditional sense) 5,000 ip ?
punkman: usg?
asciilifeform: the 'ddos' i'm concerned with is more that we are setting up a box with unique vulnerabilities
jurov: if it's 5000 residential lines, then it's easy
jurov: the civilians or their isps will stopp cooperate very quickly
asciilifeform: jurov: if they're 5000 residential lines in usa, just send the gasenwagen, aha
asciilifeform: this is not a mechanical problem, yes
asciilifeform: i am concerned with 'pogos will fall like dominoes from simple and cheap nudge' rather than 'in the dark future where being a known bitcoin user merits gassing'
jurov: so, ntp is the least worry atm
asciilifeform: (the latter is an entirely separate conversation)
asciilifeform: ntp means that you now have a multimegabyte leprous turd on your box.
asciilifeform: and that the thing can be taken out of commission entirely by the cheapest mitm.
jurov: btw, just today i got an offer for "small business" connection, it included ToS
asciilifeform: jurov: neato
jurov: guess what did it say? listed allowed server services
jurov: obv. no p2p there
punkman: asciilifeform: don't even need mitm, dozens of DoS vectors in there
asciilifeform: jurov: residential ?
jurov: and "must not disturb other users"
asciilifeform: jurov: classic chumpatron. exists on this side of the atlantic, too
punkman: reading the code is quite discouraging
asciilifeform: 'pay double for your residential line! because you are a moron and want to show it off!'
asciilifeform: 'get nothing in return but the word 'business' !!'
jurov: and where are these mythincal civilian nonresidential lines pogo is supposed to be on?
asciilifeform: jurov: plenty of folks lease office space. or have a non-retarded isp. etc
jurov: lol, having your employer ddoes, yet better!
asciilifeform: i've been running public node at home for years, in the heart of mordor
asciilifeform: never had problem.
jurov: so, stfu about ddosing then
shinohai: I just pay for business class internet so no one bothers me about my activities
asciilifeform: jurov: again, i was speaking of ddos in the sense of 'if it is trivial to take out pogo with a nudge that no one else will notice, it will be done'
asciilifeform: rather than the classical 'ocean of shit down your pipe' sense
jurov: but ntp flood is ocean of shit
asciilifeform: shinohai: jurov just described a 'business class' that ~will bother~
asciilifeform: jurov: flood is not the only known past ntp vuln
asciilifeform: what'll folks propose to put on this poor box next? 'samba' ?
jurov: ah, so you suppose someone has ntp 0day in store for us
asciilifeform: familiar with term 'attack surface' ?
jurov: as opposed to "simple as possible, but no simpler"?
jurov: ntp is simple enough in this situation
asciilifeform: what is the shortest known implementation ?
asciilifeform: as in, one that jurov would be willing to read & sign
asciilifeform: must also work on uclibc and, possibly, musl
asciilifeform: and work without invoking dns
assbot: c - How to write a NTP client? - Stack Overflow ... ( http://bit.ly/1LQjQX7 )
thestringpuller: so there is no way they can increase the block size
thestringpuller: my internet is drained right now relaying blocks, I had to shut my node off
thestringpuller: so i can stream music from my library. these people don't know what they're talking about.
jurov: heh. if you had a pogo, you'd just yank it from power
jurov: i don't see where to find 5000 ppl that would tolerate such bw hog
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38900 @ 0.00056188 = 21.8571 BTC [+] {2}
thestringpuller: jurov: if i had a pogo i would connect it to the neighbors unsecured wifi XD
punkman: from 0.5.3 source "/// when NTP implemented, change to just nTime = GetAdjustedTime()"
jurov: thestringpuller wih $10 wifi nic you can route bitcoind there right now, no?
decimation: I don't get it, why do we need to run the ntp daemon to use ntp?
decimation: just use ntpdate to set the clock once and be done
decimation: will work for a year or two
decimation: 'civilian' chumper's electricity is probably not more reliable than that anyway
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40400 @ 0.00055182 = 22.2935 BTC [-]
decimation: and the 'attack surface' consists of a few packets asking for the time
thestringpuller: jurov: yea and assuming the neighbor's wifi is setup to allow incoming connections to 8333
thestringpuller: but the main issue is that my upstream limitations are greater restricted than downstream, so when I relay blocks and tx data esp. when mempool is getting big, it chokes me from doing anything remote (like ssh is even slow)
jurov: if you had sane router like dd-wrt or mikrotik
jurov: you could set ougoing traffic shaper
assbot: Giant robots set to fight after U.S. company issues video challenge to Japanese rival | CTV News ... ( http://bit.ly/1HdzqZu )
punkman: I can barely do 20-30kbps up without router getting constipated, at least when seeding torrents
thestringpuller: punkman: jurov i can do up to 600kbps on torrents without seeing constipation
thestringpuller: but bitcoind is demanding like 1mbps
thestringpuller: which is like the upward limits set by the ISP
jurov: the idea is, if you limit the uplink yourself before isp does, you can set priority for misc traffic
thestringpuller: yea. torrent clients (rtorrent) let you limit from within the client
thestringpuller: i don't understand why I should have to set iptable rules
jurov: because bitcoind does not know how to limit itself
jurov: in companies where i did sysadmin, outgoing email was prone to slow everything to crawl with ADSL, and obv setting limits on everyone's email clients was impractical
jurov: after shaping and setting priorities all went fine
decimation: at the cost of slowing email delivery
decimation: 'plox to make email faster'
jurov: haha yes. but most of the time it just throttled it from gobbling full 768k down to 600k, not very noticeable
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82100 @ 0.00055428 = 45.5064 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me - Vox ... ( http://bit.ly/1J2tArT )
mats: loled
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6700 @ 0.00054838 = 3.6741 BTC [-]
pete_dushenski: "The real problem: a simplistic, unworkable, and ultimately stifling conception of social justice" << sounds about right.
lobbes: "So it's not just that students refuse to countenance uncomfortable ideas — they refuse to engage them, period. Engagement is considered unnecessary, as the immediate, emotional reactions of students contain all the analysis and judgment that sensitive issues demand." << ayup
pete_dushenski: "All the old, enlightened means of discussion and analysis —from due process to scientific method — are dismissed as being blind to emotional concerns and therefore unfairly skewed toward the interest of straight white males" << moar gold.
punkman: "I have intentionally adjusted my teaching materials as the political winds have shifted." "While I used to pride myself on getting students to question themselves and engage with difficult concepts and texts, I now hesitate. What if this hurts my evaluations and I don't get tenure?"
punkman: yeah what if you don't get tenure
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7856 @ 0.00056463 = 4.4357 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 03-06-2015 17:58:37; ben_vulpes: (unrelated: http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34700 @ 0.00056659 = 19.6607 BTC [+] {2}
trinque: punkman | does 0.0001 still get you in next block? << this is what deedbot- pays
trinque: asciilifeform: I got clang to fart out a graphviz dot file; so far, every tool that can eat the thing results in a horrid ball of yarn
trinque: noticed that many of the tools there are more or less the same java program
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
trinque: I'm not even going to share the result; just take a pen and go nuts on a piece of paper and you'll have it
ascii_field: trinque: the 'dot' file, does it contain something like a logical flow graph ?
ascii_field: in whatever format
trinque: yeah it's a directed graph; however, clang also barfed lots of unnamed nodes
trinque: Node0xd2ace8391f0
trinque: so on
ascii_field: then useless
trinque: yep
ascii_field: this is so infuriatingly basic
ascii_field: just want a matrix of what calls what
assbot: Page not found · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HLjHlY )
trinque: I cannot see how this tool does not exist
assbot: zrm/snow · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HLjFKO )
trinque: except that C++ itself foils any attempt
ascii_field: shinohai: see log
assbot: Need a search term.
trinque: !s snow
assbot: 173 results for 'snow' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=snow
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:08:49; decimation: asciilifeform: https://github.com/zrm/snow < I thought this could be it, but then saw the deps list
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 04:08:54; asciilifeform: mats: what is interesting about it ?
shinohai: Hmm missed that. Interesting concept
ascii_field: same crud as 'tor'
ascii_field: for same reason.
ascii_field: faux p2p
trinque: ascii_field: did you see the awesome glsa on icu yesterday?
assbot: Gentoo Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1JL0QJY )
trinque: notable packages linked against icu on my box include.... firefox
trinque: lol and chrome has it too
jurov: trinque deedbot now has only enough for 27 blocks?
trinque: jurov: enough of a balance?
jurov: yes
trinque: there are a few other unspent outputs
trinque: it will switch to the next
jurov: oh i see
trinque: and if it gets low, feel free to throw some bitdust in the tank
trinque: should be good for a while though
trinque: I see 0.1028202 BTC
trinque: now that the de-dockerization is complete, I may have it announce its current balance along with newly uploaded deeds
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22700 @ 0.00056737 = 12.8793 BTC [+] {2}
ascii_field: trinque: and guess what, rebuilding all the deps of that thing would take a month+ on my box
ascii_field: and that's ~after~ resolving the circular dependencies
trinque: I will never mock stallman emailing himself static html ever again.
trinque: I've half considered trying to stop using the web so much, aside from maybe syncing certain sites to a local box.
trinque: it's clearly *all* irreparably fucked.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7400 @ 0.00056658 = 4.1927 BTC [-]
ascii_field: .... and how much shitgnomism is rolled into the 'updated' version of 10,001 proggies that will install.
trinque: nowhere clearer than the recent 1m+ lines-changed linux release
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58600 @ 0.00056872 = 33.327 BTC [+] {3}
ascii_field: at this point, any unixlike box with a graphical display may as well be running winblowz
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00056891 = 9.4439 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: everyone who ever made fun of rms deserves to be fed a litre of 'toe jam' now.
ascii_field: and every day.
mircea_popescu: ascii_field i know i'm fed up with random shit depending on random shit, but it's not mere stupidity. it's just them trying to make sure shit permeates everywhere.
mircea_popescu: oh, openssl put out a bug ? best make sure the fucking calculator pulls it in.
assbot: Drone fires burgers at the homeless in charity viral video gone wrong - Americas - World - The Independent ... ( http://bit.ly/1HdQJcW )
ascii_field: elementary.
mircea_popescu: anyway, re the switch : let's talk it through.
ascii_field stands up ears
mircea_popescu: so, when you start the pogo, you provide it with the human touch, divine spark, politica time.
mircea_popescu: this, you have to do. like it or not we dunno how to abstract it away.
mircea_popescu: from there on, iut carries on by simply syncing its clock to last accepted block.
ascii_field: howabout at 4am on a sunday when the mains flickers ?
mircea_popescu: yes this opens it up to attack, but
mircea_popescu: you take it down and start it over with new magic touch
ascii_field: congrats, now pogo behaves like the clock on my stove
mircea_popescu: inconvenience is not a controlling point here.
mircea_popescu: it does yes.
ascii_field: except with no display !
mircea_popescu: what can we do ?
ascii_field: what, i'm to poll it ?
mircea_popescu: its principal function ius being polled anyway
ascii_field: now it is no longer a civilian box
mircea_popescu: i am sorry you can't have candy kalash.
ascii_field: whole point was 'here let me fuck you and plug this box into your router'
ascii_field: not 'learn to maintain this steam engine'
mircea_popescu: it is held together by the superficial tension of frog entails.
mircea_popescu: nevertyheless, that is a marked improvement over the current situation
ascii_field: i am not sure how this improves on anything
mircea_popescu: held together by the superficial tension of hemorhagic diarhea
mircea_popescu: illustrate an attack for my benefit.
danielpbarron: isn't there supposed to be a way to send commands to the pogo? otherwise how is it useful to me as a "full node" if I can't query it for blocks/transactions and relay new ones I have created for it?
ascii_field: with the scheme described, you don't even need an attack
ascii_field: they never get off the ground at all
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron query yes, order notrly.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00055975 = 12.4265 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: ascii_field is the things' processor freq known ?
ascii_field: the idea, as i understood it, was to let folks set up nodes without human committment
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: yes, though i've forgotten the exact number. 500MHz i think it was.
mircea_popescu: this obviously can be measured
ascii_field: it keeps time fine!
ascii_field: i said this
mircea_popescu: i mean, by siomething running on the box in question
ascii_field: just not when powered down!
ascii_field: but keeps perfect interrupt-based clock when running
ascii_field: at least as good as pc
ascii_field: this doesn't need any magic, it works on trad kernel
ascii_field: right now.
mircea_popescu: and you don't like having to start it by manual command because myeah.
ascii_field: because these are to be given to folks who will not volunteer any meat commitment
ascii_field: but will agree to plug in box
ascii_field: or so was my understanding
mircea_popescu: and setting the time to "timestamp of the last block it actually has on disk" is going to what ?
ascii_field: see today's thread
mircea_popescu: i have. but tell me again.
ascii_field: for one thing, there may not be any blocks on disk
mircea_popescu: repetition is not always a sin.
ascii_field: for another, it could be days, weeks, months old
mircea_popescu: but the next block it gets wouldn't be more than two hours off.
mircea_popescu: even if it is months old.
ascii_field: wat????
ascii_field: it'll be 2 hrs delta to the last known!
mircea_popescu: if last block it has is x, 5 weeks old
ascii_field: this is elementary
mircea_popescu: block x+1 will not be current
ascii_field: it will be 'from the future'
mircea_popescu: it will be 5 weeks old +- 10 minutes
ascii_field: because machine thinks it is '69
mircea_popescu: ah if nothing on disk yes.
mircea_popescu: but we were discussing "block on disk is 5 weeks old"
ascii_field: and if something on disk, then perhaps it is 2009
ascii_field: from the cpu's pov
ascii_field: and any incoming block is invalid, because 'from the future'
mircea_popescu: the next block to wahtever it has on disk is not going to be too much from the future.
ascii_field: >2h --> too far
ascii_field: according to the traditional bitcoin protocol.
mircea_popescu: again : if you have block x, from a year ago, when you get block x+1, the styamp on block x+1 will be, 1year ago + 10 minutes
ascii_field: realize, time is specified as an invariant
mircea_popescu: exactly.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: if we lack a clock, we are wide open to replay attack
mircea_popescu: illustrate.
ascii_field: because the box has no idea what year it actually is
ascii_field: much less what time
ascii_field: even if you weasel out of this one by hardcoding block hashes, etc
mircea_popescu: just build an example wouldja.
ascii_field: you are still open to crafted, induced clock drift
ascii_field: fine, example. malicious miner starts crapping out blocks with timestamp more and more off in the future
ascii_field: little by little, 5000 pogos slide with it
ascii_field: eventually fork.
mircea_popescu: wait a second.
mircea_popescu: what % hash does this miner have ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4454 @ 0.0005699 = 2.5383 BTC [+]
ascii_field: not a proper fork
ascii_field: but a network split
ascii_field: where pogo fleet is now own parallel universe
mircea_popescu: this is a horribru example. so, miner has 10% of the hash, 10% of the bnlocks are badly timed. what of it, pogo resets on the remainder.
mircea_popescu: this isn't an attack.
ascii_field: resets ?
mircea_popescu: because you mined block 5, with a bad time, someone else mines 6 with a right time, pogo is now on block 6.
ascii_field: all it sees is 'block was broadcast, has timestamp t, average it now'
ascii_field: there is no 'bad time', normally there is 2hrs of 'play' in the gears
mircea_popescu: no average. set clock = timestamp of last block
ascii_field: all the malicious miner needs to do is keep nudging withing the allowed bounds
mircea_popescu: you've not yet constructed a credible example.
ascii_field: let's suppose a powered-up pogo sets clock using first block it sees
ascii_field: what if said block is a 'martian' block ?
mircea_popescu: last it sees on disk.
mircea_popescu: not first block it sees.
ascii_field: clean disk!
mircea_popescu: forget that for a moment.
mircea_popescu: let's consider the not clean disk situation
ascii_field: how did the disk become not empty ?
ascii_field: dropped by god ?
mircea_popescu: can you forget that for a moment ?
mircea_popescu: suppose it's not empty. so, pogo thinks time = last block on disk
mircea_popescu: once it accepts a further block, it resets its clock too.
jurov: because you mined block 5, with a bad time, someone else mines 6 << and it will get dropped because pogo considers delta from 5 invalid
mircea_popescu: now, this theoretically is vulnerable. but practically, can you construct the attack for me ?
mircea_popescu: jurov 5 couldn't have been that far off and be accepted from 4.
jurov: whuy not?
ascii_field: next block is from hitler. it has timestamp of... yesterday.
mircea_popescu: it gets rejected
mircea_popescu: can't be next block. hitler lost.
ascii_field: then genuine block appears. it now appears to be 'from the future'
ascii_field: is rejected.
mircea_popescu: hitler's block was already rejected.
mircea_popescu: because it was from yesterday.
ascii_field: how does node know this?
ascii_field: how old is the chain on disk
mircea_popescu: because when hitler block shows up, the disk has a block it ends with
mircea_popescu: doesn't matter how old that block is. the block coming after it will be ~10 minutes later.
ascii_field: in order for it to be rejected. the chain on disk will have to be no more than a day behind
ascii_field: ok, say chain is a week out of date
mircea_popescu: lemme model this maybe i'm saying it stupidly.
ascii_field: on what basis is hitler's block rejected ?
mircea_popescu: so, pogo has on disk last block 5, bvlock timestamp 1000
ascii_field: the cpu clock is currently 1969 midnight
mircea_popescu: at real timestamp 5000 pogo starts
mircea_popescu: it receives block 6, with timestamp 1010. accepts it.
mircea_popescu: it receives alt block 6, timestamp 990. it rejects it
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: i can see where you're going. but it still can be sunk
mircea_popescu: to answer your q : hitler's block is rejected on the basis that it's too far off from the last block pogo accepted.
mircea_popescu: well, i suppose maybe it can, but show it to me ?
ascii_field: hitler uses his week while your node was in the crate to re-mine the blocks from the last place you have on disk, with minimal plausible monotonically stepping time deltas
ascii_field: you are now four hours, say, behind the actual earth time
mircea_popescu: ok. but the expense of this is staggering.
ascii_field: next block appears to be from the future
mircea_popescu: yes. the only way this attack would work is with a major chain replacement investment.
ascii_field: only staggering if all he has is a week
mircea_popescu: i daresay this is within engineering tolerance.
ascii_field: if he has a year ?
mircea_popescu: even if he has a year
mircea_popescu: in a year he has to replace a million btc worth of blocks.
ascii_field: hitler is only half of the problem here
ascii_field: other half is natural drift
mircea_popescu: natural drift is a problem, yes, but you reset on each block.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:02:31; asciilifeform: i will leave this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push the next fellow, like in a crowded train ?
mircea_popescu: it is a form of dead reckoning, yes. so bad in principle.
mircea_popescu: in practice, it's mediated
ascii_field: so now miners get to move pogo clocks around collectively.
mircea_popescu: ie, exactly like drummers (if you think about it, drummers are EXACTLY each guy pushing the other, sound has a speed, and it pushes ears)
ascii_field: as if miners were not enough of an evil
mircea_popescu: they are not an evil you may divorce.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: the speed of the sound of the drum is negligible in comparison to the speed at which push wave propagates through a crowd
mircea_popescu: exactly what im saying here.
ascii_field: unless the crowd is in a gasenwagen and behaves like a solid
mircea_popescu: natural drift and alt-chain attacks have a cost.
ascii_field: delay is negligible, rather
ascii_field: not speed
mircea_popescu: just pointing out that drums were good enough for marching and not good enough for precision bomb strike
mircea_popescu: just so here.
jurov: how is the timing attack different from normal orphans?
mircea_popescu: orphans are judged on sheer blockchain length
ascii_field: jurov: mainly in that it affects pogos and nobody else
jurov: pogo will eventually reorganize, and reset the time back to where the for started
jurov: *fork
mircea_popescu: ascii_field anyway, mind that pogos are not intended to be THE ONLY solution to relaying. they are just supposed to be a type of solution.
mircea_popescu: so yes, the rifle regiment wouldn't survive cavalry charge from the side. alrighty then, put them on a hillltop.
ascii_field: thing is, i can easily see these becoming 99% of the relay mass
mircea_popescu: it's not that i don't appreciate your intellectual purity. it's merely that things must be made as correct as possible and no correcter than that.
ascii_field: this terrible kludge would probably go well with jurov's
ascii_field: alone, either is nightmarish
ascii_field: but together they sorta cancel out
mircea_popescu: the only correct solution to the problems of humanity is killing all the people.
mircea_popescu: we really want to stop somewhere short of this.
mircea_popescu: anyway, not that i'm saying this must be done or anything. but i do not think it'd be the end of the world if it has to be.
ascii_field: so far there appear to be just these two solutions
ascii_field: no one else has proposed anything like a third
mircea_popescu: yes, but you didn't care much for it. usb timer dongle thinger
ascii_field: (anything requiring the pogo keeper to have hands and brain is not a solution)
mircea_popescu: it has the major problem of costing more money.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: may as well ship a pc then!
mircea_popescu: it is not your fault, or mine, or his, that "the time" does not come engraved in the wave fucntion you know.
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
mircea_popescu: the time is nonsense in the first place.
ascii_field: that this was a constraint, i warned from day 1
ascii_field: and i still think that dependence on political time is a serious flaw in bitcoin proper
jurov: also there is my doubt of finding 5000 or how many ppl that won't mind pogo trampling upon their connection and likely inviting attacks
mircea_popescu: ok, how about this alternative : put a special time server on the pogo itself, have the pogo sync its time from the list of approved upstream sources.
mircea_popescu: (same list as it takes blocks from)
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: you realize that is exactly how the ntp nodes with which we're ddosed work
mircea_popescu: yes i realise. but at least these are our evil nodes rather than obama's evil nodes.
mircea_popescu: look, there's only so many corners to a square box.
ascii_field: so now we're asking for a non-retarded complete reimplementation of ntp.
mircea_popescu: i blame you.
ascii_field: i blame retardatoshi
mircea_popescu: anyway. the problem of time (as you rightly observe) is a larger problem than anything bitcoin solves
mircea_popescu: thus, can't really blame it for the situation.
ascii_field: bitcoin did not have to depend on it
mircea_popescu: yes, it did.
ascii_field: what's wrong with monotonic retargeting ?
mircea_popescu: didja miss the line where i said you can't have a statistical sample of one ?
ascii_field: no need for sample
mircea_popescu: there is no way to distinguish between a block mined at difficulty x that came out with 9 leading zeroes and a block mined at difficulty 1 that came out randomly with that many zeroes.
ascii_field: say, anyone who can hash faster than strictly required to win the race, ends up pushing the target towards hardness
mircea_popescu: this dies.
mircea_popescu: this dies, because you will find a random block which is 00000000000000000000000000000f and game over.
mircea_popescu: can't replicate your luck.
ascii_field: for so long as the 'lucky strikes' can't nudge too far
ascii_field: it lives
mircea_popescu: wrong you are
mircea_popescu: luck can come out any way it pleases.
ascii_field: would be interesting to model this
mircea_popescu: go right ahead.
ascii_field: it is rather reminiscent of 'there is nonzero chance for you to fall through the floor'
mircea_popescu: the chance to die approaches infinity much before you even get a third halving
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19998 @ 0.0005699 = 11.3969 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: you're basically proposing we do a "your rent is a tenth of your income or more, forever. and you play the lottery daily."
mircea_popescu: what do you do two weeks after you won the lottery ?
mircea_popescu: win it again ? with what money ?
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: you've described... farming!
mircea_popescu: so i have.
ascii_field: gotta eat every day
mircea_popescu: farming, you will notice, died out.
ascii_field: crop can die, if it wants
mircea_popescu: moreover, this retarded version of farming is more like, "Farming done by bacteria colony. doubles every time there's food."
mircea_popescu: ie, african farming.
ascii_field: the 'double' thing is negotiable, potentially
ascii_field: recall, we are thinking of all possible formulations
mircea_popescu: not so negotiable. anyway, you DO need the sampling, and that fucks it all up
ascii_field: not merely the one we use now
mircea_popescu: even so.
mircea_popescu: do not let me stand in between you and greatness. but until the day you shit out that magic, it's no magic time.
ascii_field: not that i seriously disagree with mircea_popescu's intuition, but it is not obviously clear to me that we're speaking of a perpetuum mobile
ascii_field: perhaps i will need more ice cream to work through this one
mircea_popescu: which is why i say.
mircea_popescu: go, find.
ascii_field: i agree, this is very much a 'go, find' rather than 'sure to be found'
ascii_field: let's imagine, briefly, that i ~do~ find.
mircea_popescu: back at sad farm, there's really little we can do with the bitcoin as it is, other than acquiesce to the filth of human notions of time.
mircea_popescu: then maybe it's time for ada.
ascii_field: incidentally, the answer, if it exists to be found, probably involves what fuller might've labeled 'tensegrity'
mircea_popescu: i am maybe not the first but definitely not the last to admit when satoshi did the dumb. nevertheless, here he did no such thing. there is no alternative known to literature, and you can't fault a man for not coming up with a novel star.
ascii_field: where there is a 'tug of war' among top contenders for pulling difficulty up
ascii_field: and nobody can get too lucky
mircea_popescu: that centralizes
mircea_popescu: because it is game theoretically advantageous to have a central scheduler.
ascii_field: gotta have the prisoner's dilemma come out against it
ascii_field: that is, for defection to be +ev
mircea_popescu: not that bitcoin doesn't centralize, a little. but this is criminal.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30009 @ 0.00057011 = 17.1084 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: not sure that can be arranged. prolly can be made to appear it was arranged, but...
ascii_field: could one design a system where fucking the lizards is always +ev ?
mircea_popescu: this is necessarily the case, if you think about it.
ascii_field: not lizard unless untouchable ?
mircea_popescu: depends how you define it, but there's also the problem of "you're the lizard, bob."
mircea_popescu: you know, when the holy paladin marches into the forest to kill the unseen devils that have been upsetting the natural order of the land
mircea_popescu: oinly to discover that indeed such devils do exist. him.
ascii_field: methinks we're at the point here where one could actually build a mathematical thing
ascii_field: and play with the knobs
mircea_popescu: i think it's prolly premature
mircea_popescu: but i think we eventually will.
ascii_field: another suggestion: vectorize the difficulty
ascii_field: (presently, it is a scalar; but doesn't have to be)
mircea_popescu: you are aware of the complexity that introduces in say an attempt at mathematical provability re the entire shenanigan ?
ascii_field: ^ anyone ~not~ know this folktale ?
mircea_popescu: "racul, broasca si o stiuca"
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: actually it may very well be formalizable game-theoretically
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: yes!!
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI08e8UbRBU << there you go, ~ROMANIAN~ oldies.
assbot: Semnal M - Racul, broasca si o stiuca [Romanian Oldies] - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHqA8K )
ascii_field wonders if it was originally a ro tale
ascii_field: or hell knows, visigoth
mircea_popescu: i think it was eastern european folklore
mircea_popescu: prolly yidish
ascii_field: has the flavour, yes
mircea_popescu: anyway, took down (as folklore) by one alexandru donici in the 1800s
ascii_field: proof of work as hilbert space...
mircea_popescu: you know the recourse to complexity is an academic habit.
ascii_field: not complexity !
ascii_field: what we have now - ~that~ is complexity. just unexamined kind.
mircea_popescu: also true.
ascii_field: when you ~actually~ (vs. academitard-pretend) nail something down - that is a reduction in complexity.
mircea_popescu: but you've not nailed something down. you just hope saint hilbert may.
ascii_field: can't promise this 'before next tuesday'
ascii_field: but the possibility is there
mircea_popescu: all sorts of possibilities are here, provided you don't go into geographical details
ascii_field: yes, possibly i triggered somebody's allergy by mentioning a maths dude
mircea_popescu: no, we're friends with hilbert, and i don't think it's a bad idea, either.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19200 @ 0.00057071 = 10.9576 BTC [+]
punkman: mircea_popescu: this dies, because you will find a random block which is 00000000000000000000000000000f and game over. << this is incorrect. you don't infer the target from the hash. 256bit target is included in all block headers.
mircea_popescu: punkman he wants to infer the target from the hash.
ascii_field: punkman: we were contemplating a hypothetical clockless blockchain
ascii_field: where miners slowly make life harder for themselves
ascii_field: but not too slowly, and not too quickly
punkman: you could very easily have monotonically increasing target
ascii_field: and - somehow - can't collude
mircea_popescu: basically he could be in government : he's decided to externalise the cost he can't bore
ascii_field: punkman: no good, as pointed out earlier, because finite planet
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25708 @ 0.00055537 = 14.2775 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: and he's picked the dumbest link to do it to
mircea_popescu: wash dc is washing on you alfie.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: right now we have usg clock!
ascii_field: what could possibly be worse
punkman: ascii_field: well yeah that was my objection, need to be able to adjust downward
mircea_popescu: chinese miners.
mircea_popescu: you remember ? locusts ?
ascii_field feels like he took that potion from lem's 'futurological congress', which makes one realize that he had no robot servants, just leprous wretches dressed in gabage cans clanking around as 'robots'
ascii_field: and they aren't sweeping the house, but shitting on the carpet
mircea_popescu: shweeping.
jurov: actually, we have an usg internet, too
mircea_popescu: the only new thing in the world is the history you didn't know, and the only thing that's worse than what we have today
mircea_popescu: is what comes tomorrow.
decimation: I didn't realize that usg owns time now too
ascii_field: jurov: it is at least theoretically possible to build a non-usg network
decimation: can't someone in china look at the sky?
mircea_popescu: decimation the human idea of time, yes.
ascii_field: but the mystery of building a non-usg and non-usg-pushable political clock remains, afaik, a mystery
decimation: don't need cesium to keep time to 2hr window
mircea_popescu: you don't appreciate the depth of this problem
mircea_popescu: think of time as capital, and think you're that anon president that opposed hamilton
mircea_popescu: and think "hey, my clock can keep time within two hours, how would those newfangled financial traders and hedge funds render me destitute on the cointinent my fathers conquered ?!?!?!"
decimation: adams?
mircea_popescu: jefferson.
jurov: "imperial time"
jurov: gotta revert to julian calendar?
mircea_popescu: precision is the problem
decimation: umm, okay
mircea_popescu: unless you discover a more precise clock, and keep it from the enemy, such that you can exploit his misclicks and take his women
mircea_popescu: you ain't got nottin.
decimation: well, if you only used the sun and the rotation of the earth, you would be ~60 seconds of utc (starting around 1960)
mircea_popescu: it is not coincidental that "finance" reduced to hft.
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
assbot: Synchronization in a Distributed System | 8th Light ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHrSjS )
ascii_field: ^ state of the art for p2p ~ordering of events~ - rather than absolute time
decimation: are we worrying about relativistic bitcoin?
mircea_popescu: ordering has jack shit to do with timekeeping
mircea_popescu: i dunno why people keep mushin them together
mircea_popescu: they're like sleeping and fucking
punkman: blockchain doesn't order events based on time
mircea_popescu: "oh, happens in bed" "really ? fuck you."
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: almost all timekeeping is really for ordering!
ascii_field: including in bitcoin
mircea_popescu: doesn't matter!
jurov: why? in hft order doesn't matter?
mircea_popescu: punkman it actually DOES order events to some degree based on time.
mircea_popescu: hence rejected blocks from the future.
ascii_field: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191733 << the machine tried to keep folks from 'rewriting history'
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 19:14:54; punkman: blockchain doesn't order events based on time
mircea_popescu: jurov the way you use the cow's teat is not the alpha and omega of what the cow teat is.
ascii_field: sorta the whole point
ascii_field: lamport's achievement was to abstract out some of the attributes of timekeeping we actually ~need~
mircea_popescu: sure. but this does not reflect on timekeeping
mircea_popescu: it reflects on us.
punkman: I don't see how lamport clock would help
mircea_popescu: it wouldn't.
ascii_field: not that virtually no one ~actually cares how many seconds it's been since midnight jan 1 1969~
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69700 @ 0.00057153 = 39.8356 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: ascii_field they don't care now in the manner they don't care about how well oiled their rifle is.
mircea_popescu: once it comes to it, they care or they go away.
ascii_field: just that 'oiled enough'
mircea_popescu: like the housewives, you know, "oph, i don;t care about the crisis, my husband does all that money stuff" "orly ? shut up and sit down, goose."
ascii_field: evidently i failed to make the minor point here
BingoBoingo: <ascii_field> so now we're asking for a non-retarded complete reimplementation of ntp. << reimplemented, can't guarentee not retarded in its own way
ascii_field: the 1969 thing is an arbitrary aspect of the mechanism
ascii_field: rather than the essential
mircea_popescu: well sure.
decimation: ascii_field: you seem to imply that you need to run ntp daemon to use ntp
mircea_popescu: to TRUST ntp
ascii_field: decimation: it is well known that you don't
ascii_field: can ask for time once, yes
ascii_field: but from whom?
decimation: exactly
ascii_field: and if you don't hear an answer ?
ascii_field: and how do you know the answer did not come from satanic isp ?
decimation: well, there is such a thing as signed ntp
decimation: I'm not sure how simple it would be to implement
ascii_field: now hitler controls your box
mircea_popescu: you know how satoshi would have solved this problem, rigth ?
decimation: don't need to only rely on the ntp reply
ascii_field: we already know how he solved it
ascii_field: by asking winblows for the time.
decimation: it can be hyptothetical until blocks start rolling in
assbot: Coming Events In Bible Prophecy ... ( http://bit.ly/1J2Lpah )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15195 @ 0.00057196 = 8.6909 BTC [+] {2}
ascii_field: see, i almost guessed.
decimation: hitler cannot change the clock on the pogo
decimation: pogo can record times he observes new blocks since boot
ascii_field: he can if it treats his signet as ultimate authority
decimation: doesn't need to, treats as man on the street
mircea_popescu: in other news i am pleased to inform the general public that my pyromania is progressing nicely.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33605 @ 0.00057273 = 19.2466 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: listen, can't the thing ask the local isp for time ?
decimation: hitler controls time and your isp
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: ???!!!?????
ascii_field: there is no widespread custom of isp running a time server
mircea_popescu: really ?
ascii_field: certainly not on this side of the ocean
mircea_popescu: they run dns but not time ?
mircea_popescu: logical.
ascii_field: conceivably, ~somewhere~ they do
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00055558 = 6.9448 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: last i looked into it my isp actually fed you time, on special port.
ascii_field: ntp is low-enough traffic that most of the planet asks usg more or less directly
mircea_popescu: off of their own atomic clock no less
ascii_field: and comically, without authentication of any kind
mircea_popescu: (also telco and radio provider etc)
ascii_field: anyone recall old thread about banks getting time from gps antennae ?
decimation: mircea_popescu: all of those could be forged by hitler
ascii_field: (also without authentication)
ascii_field: don't even need hitler there. just a kid with an sdr card
mircea_popescu: decimation intranet ? notrly.
mircea_popescu: are you being parodic ?
ascii_field: the banks thing really happens
decimation: I'm telling you things I"ve been told
ascii_field: someone, iirc, discovered that you could move the clock on most 'atm' machines this way
decimation: nobody has told me why I can't observe the position of the sun in the sky, use today's date, and reduce the time
decimation: then setup an ntp server
ascii_field: decimation: you can do this, and sign the result with your gossipd key, etc. sure
mircea_popescu: decimation what i said was that if you use usg-supplied cutouts for that reduction, you're just doing a roundabout ntp call. might as well ask directly
ascii_field: but this does not exist today.
ascii_field: and if it did, hitler could simply delay the packet
ascii_field: realize that we are talking about ~time~
decimation: as in, a printed table?
ascii_field: mitm can make the answer 1) verify sig correctly 2) be arbitrarily wrong
decimation: what usg cutouts?
mircea_popescu: how do you get the calibration data ?
decimation: there exist astronomy libraries like http://www.hs.uni-hamburg.de/DE/Ins/Per/Czesla/PyA/PyA/pyaslDoc/pyasl.html that could be used to make such tables
assbot: Python AstroLib — PyAstronomy 0.8.1 documentation ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHtgDe )
mircea_popescu: for your locale ?
decimation: absolutely
mircea_popescu: i do not dispute they exist. what i said, again, was that if you use a nist table you're basically querying ntp.
decimation: well, yes, but the math is not very difficult to verify
mircea_popescu: yes, it is :)
mircea_popescu: because you need a clock.
ascii_field: verify against ~what~ ?
decimation: occultations
ascii_field: realize that earth time is a political fiction
mircea_popescu: well, a convention, but anyway.
ascii_field: think of it this way
decimation: a political fiction that for the time being is tied to observable astronomic phenomenon
ascii_field: decimation measures the time, by observing a pulsar
ascii_field: (one of the most accurate timebases found in nature)
mircea_popescu: there's no "truthful" means to breach a convention by getting the REAL reality of it. just like you can't deduce a girl out of her panties.
ascii_field: but now he wants to ~tell mircea_popescu the time~
mircea_popescu: decimation it's "tied" in a conventional manner.
ascii_field: i.e. how many counts since last time mircea_popescu asked
ascii_field: and this is where the boojum comes in!
ascii_field: they are a continent apart
ascii_field: between, are devils
mircea_popescu: nah, they left.
ascii_field: who can delay the messages at will
mircea_popescu: so are we putting a pulsar on the pogo usb or what.
mircea_popescu: can be a small one off amazon.
ascii_field: trying to illustrate the notion of 'political time' here
decimation: I can tell him that a mutually observable passing of mercury in front of a star will be at 6pm
decimation: (assuming same hemisphere roughly)
ascii_field: then it rains
ascii_field: and one or both of you miss it.
ascii_field: then waht
mircea_popescu: he has a point, he ~can~ sync like that, but only provided he actually did the measurements as to which star himself.
decimation: use hitler's time until it can be verified
ascii_field: why not use it every day then
ascii_field: whole problem with bitcoin is that hitler can induce permanent damage by playing with the clock on rare occasions and in localized ways
decimation: not if you only ntp once
ascii_field: on powerup
mircea_popescu: if only once were a thing.
ascii_field: then hitler knows exactly when to fuck with ntp!
ascii_field: when a city loses power
decimation: and then ditch hitler's time once you have synced with block chain and can use its timestamps
ascii_field: as mircea_popescu points out, 'once' is a many-time thing here
decimation: relative to your pogo's clock
ascii_field: decimation: i discussed the problem with letting blockchain affect the time, earlier
mircea_popescu: ascii_field you still don't like my, "-time=blabla" in start-up call ?
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: it is inapplicable for pogo
jurov: i propose to wire electrodes up on the pogo chassis and synchronize time using chosen woman's periods
ascii_field: ^^^ winner
ascii_field: except, make pogo go in
mircea_popescu: fertility THAT bad in slovakia ?
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 14:50:38; asciilifeform: drift by more than 2h and you're not only fucked, but will mislead others
mircea_popescu: you can't rewrite the blocks.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: we were discussion a variant where nodes ask one another
ascii_field: the one where blocks - sure
mircea_popescu: i thought from your prev line you weren't but anywa
ascii_field: iirc decimation suggested one
ascii_field: but yes, if using block timestamps, pogos can only be mislead, cannot mislead others (unless some fool were to mine via 'getwork'-ing a pogo!)
assbot: USB Precision Clock ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHuaj1 )
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
trinque was born just after everything cool was discontinued
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:10:23; jurov: if they're going to ddos known pogo addresses then this has no solution
ascii_field: trinque: not only discontinued, but costs like 4+ pogos !!!
trinque: oh bah
mircea_popescu: i don't feel too good about asking people who trust me to put a box on the net that's open to flooding people.
trinque: the cost is not prohibitive
ascii_field: plus shipping.
trinque: how poor are people?
trinque: spend more on a heavy night drinking
ascii_field: trinque: please understand, for this cost you can ship a pc!
mircea_popescu: ascii_field that foolk is not so much of a fool
ascii_field: no need for pogo then!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00056712 = 3.1759 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: i was entertaining delusions of pogos being used as net propo for small home miners.
trinque: sure but then no sweet usb radio clock
ascii_field: trinque: the entire point is to use THE $20 BOX WE HAVE
trinque: fine fine
ascii_field: without turning it into a shittier version of the $150 box phoundation et al have
ascii_field: that any idiot can have
mircea_popescu: that also doesn't keep time./
ascii_field: pretty sure theirs has rtc
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:12:23; asciilifeform: who, precisely, can ddos (in the traditional sense) 5,000 ip ?
ascii_field: the 100 usd 'pc engines' board i mentioned a few weeks ago does.
jurov: i did not mean for pogo to promiscuously accept or even emit ntp packets!
mircea_popescu: what, you think 1k is a barrier ? 1mn is a barriere. maybe. 1k is not a barrier.
ascii_field: did not say 'barrier', necessarily, but it does raise the number of bots required
decimation: I guess I percieve the reliance on an ntp server for time as being a much smaller attack surface than relying on operating bitcoind nodes for sync
mircea_popescu: jurov i think there is at least one attack where lamer is made to think victim is ntp server
jurov: yes but that does not depend on victim
ascii_field: the basic, irrecoverable problem with ntp is that one can 'amplify'
ascii_field: that is, forge a request for the time
ascii_field: and get more bits back (to victim, that is) than you had to send.
jurov: you mean , pogo issues ntp requests, get million packets within seconds?
mircea_popescu: jurov i mean, pogo asks for ntp time, malicious server sayus "ask a.b.c.d" pogo asks.
ascii_field: jurov: worse. it'll be among those ~sending~ the replies
mircea_popescu: one thousand pogos ask.
decimation: ascii_field: it's trival to stop that
ascii_field: ntp is retarded fractally, on every scale
ascii_field: decimation: and when new bug is discovered? then?
decimation: and once again, you are talking about the daemon
mircea_popescu: i;m not a great fan either ; nevertheless i suspect it is a marginally better solution than the current best which is "just taker block".
jurov: NOT a daemon
ascii_field: decimation: the variant where it asks on powerup is also retarded
jurov: just a ting that issues one packet, receives one and shuts itself
mircea_popescu: for one thing : it costs us 20k to deploy 1k of these. i doubt hitler wants to ruin his ntp for 20k
ascii_field: because it will happily accept any answer
decimation: mircea_popescu: not to mention also ruin $1000000k commerce in the process
ascii_field: ntp from random selection among 1,000 ip (not dns, but ip) ntp nodes, PLUS sanity check using blockchain, could be a practical answer.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 15:22:37; asciilifeform: and work without invoking dns
ascii_field: fuck dns
ascii_field: i don't want dns in there. anywhere.
mircea_popescu: you can't have ntp without windows solitaire, what world do you live on
mircea_popescu: DEPENDENCIES
decimation: all you are doing is asking some shlub for the time
ascii_field: pour gasoline on them.
decimation: ask 10 randomly, and if they all give nonsense then you are fucked
decimation: might as well buy a telescope and start with your navigation tables
mircea_popescu: decimation naaah, average it out
ascii_field: decimation: the idea is that they will all agree, because you're actually taking to room 101 at your isp
mircea_popescu: that's how france kept time up until 1990
ascii_field: and not any ntp servers at all
decimation: well, it's a separate question about signed ntp requests
decimation: which addresses that issue
decimation: now hitler must pwn random boxes unknown to him beforehand
ascii_field: the only folks willing to sign ntp (for a fee!) is us navy
ascii_field: decimation: he does not need to pwn random boxes! only intercept ntp on your line.
jurov: if that, you will actually talk to one bitcoind at isp, too
jurov: what now?
decimation: ^ exactly
ascii_field: jurov: this is harder because proof-of-wortk
decimation: feeds your pogo bullshit too
ascii_field: a faux blockchain is considerably more of an undertaking to arrange
decimation: not if it controls everything, can make up bullshit chain with 0 difficult
ascii_field: decimation: is it not obvious that this is far easier to detect via mechanical means ?
jurov: it's certainly more attractive to isp than mucking with ntp
mircea_popescu: so ntp is actually emerging towards consensus here ? over alf's dead body /
mircea_popescu: mod6 you there ?
decimation: easier than noting wallclock time?
ascii_field: hell, folks in here were ringing the alarm on account of empty blocks
ascii_field: before ph0rk was apparent
mod6: yeah. haven't been able to follow for the last 45 minutes though.
decimation: I was yes
mod6 reads scrollback
decimation: maybe I should start watching venus too
ascii_field: realize, i don't have a better solution than ntp. but it has to be done sanely (no dns; builds under musl or uclibc; doesn't introduce more than a few dozen lines of code; and picks from $bigint ip on powerup; and sanity-checked from blockchain )
mircea_popescu: aahahahahaha
ascii_field: see jurov's link
mircea_popescu: no i really wish to see this
jurov: parsing ntp reply doesn't need lots of code
ascii_field: ^ example
trinque mutters about there being low-frequency radio time signals passing through his body this moment, and cannot find a single distributor for a sane, cheap usb receiver
trinque: the fucking world we live in
decimation: trinque: I've tried too
ascii_field: trinque: gps has timebase. but any moron can fool it
decimation: came to the conclusion that must do self
ascii_field: with stronger signal
mircea_popescu: actually that's not so horrible as i thought.
mircea_popescu: what's #include <arpa/inet.h> ?
decimation: ru, us, others alll broadcast multiple signals
decimation: that's a standard socket header
ascii_field: decimation: yes, and the kid across the street has the strongest signal
ascii_field: if he wants to
ascii_field: for us, ru, cn
mod6: as dumb as it sounds, i thought about ICMP 13 (dispite it being often fw'd) and checking TS against default route.
mircea_popescu: how;s that get you time ?
mod6: it returns a timestamp
ascii_field: not all isp will even let through icmp, no ?
mod6: (often fw'd)
decimation: nobody runs standard unix services anymore
decimation: like finger or chargen
mod6: but... if it's behind a NAT< then you can control the default route
ascii_field: seems like a sure way to end up with wild numbers
mod6: maybe you set your router to respond to this? i dunno. was a passing thought.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 16:20:56; mats: loled
assbot: So I found the libertard motherlode on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TjpCCB )
mircea_popescu: mod6 i think this is related to "askl your isp"
mircea_popescu: in the best case you end up with a ntp pt
ascii_field: mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 i think this is related to "askl your isp" << yeah.
ascii_field: may as well ask him (her!) to set up a gentoo
mircea_popescu: o wait, that was a DIFFERENT liberal professor bitching abotu the hell of their own making
mircea_popescu: my bad mats
mod6: <+ascii_field> mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo << yeah was reading what you guys were saying. basically why I didn't bring it up. too hard for mom & pop.
ascii_field: bad enough that this thing will need upnp
ascii_field: and will fail to be externally reachable at all a good chunk of the time
decimation: 'this system where we take turns accusing each other of being an enemy of the revolution can come around to bite me!'
shinohai: @ mircea_popescu I *think* I sent an email correctly in order to purchase some trilema credits
mircea_popescu: shinohai didja pay ?
mircea_popescu: decimation that's ok, we have a good sense of humour about it.
shinohai: Was waiting on a reply email. I filled out form but was unsure if it was accepted.
mircea_popescu: not liable to get anything unless you pay.
mircea_popescu: (why would you, there's no indication it's your email)
ascii_field: 'when the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs' (tm) (r)
shinohai: I misunderstand then. I thought an address for deposit is emailed to you.
mircea_popescu looks at this thing
mircea_popescu: it's been in place for so long i forgot
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 10 @ 0.16325969 = 1.6326 BTC [-]
jurov: folks. "hackedteam" leak is 99% downloaded, but i don't really have a place to publicly host it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47151 @ 0.00056758 = 26.762 BTC [+] {2}
ascii_field: mircea_popescu ^ ?
jurov: if i'm to put it on s3, only private
ascii_field: not a bad test of how 'bulletproof' mircea_popescu's new fleet of boxes is ?
mircea_popescu: shinohai well yeah, you put your email in there, get an email with address. didja ?
mircea_popescu: jurov feel free to put it on your binaries acct.
ascii_field: perhaps untar it first
ascii_field: so it's browsable
jurov: it's untarred
ascii_field: not everybody wants the whole ball of shit
mircea_popescu: please DO untar it either first or there before publishing
jurov: it comes untarred, i mean
mircea_popescu: jurov let me know when it's uploaded so i can mirror it.
jurov: yea, eta 20hours
mircea_popescu will put it online under trilema/uploads
ascii_field: neato!
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: where was your article with the boy, gurl, two frag grenades, and a length of twine ?
mircea_popescu: haha hmmm
ascii_field: the vectorized difficulty thing made me recall it
assbot: The twu luv torture on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tjrv2m )
ascii_field: ty mircea_popescu
shinohai: I love sdf.org, but damn their mail server is so slow.
jurov: just check there's 400G free and 190k inodes
jurov: mircea_popescu: ^
mod6: I'm currently a bit distracted. I'll re-read all of this discussion on my way back and think about it.
mircea_popescu: inodes 58M iused 374K ifree 58M
shinohai: Todays crypto financial genius award goes to: http://redd.it/3cfd05
assbot: I took a loan at 25% on prosper and put it on ltc - panic attack from the price going down : litecoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHx47D )
mircea_popescu: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: wtf is 'prosper'
mircea_popescu: don't ask and you won't have to find out.
assbot: Prosper | Home ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHx8UL )
mircea_popescu: "wtf is citizen dentistry ?" "really ?"
ascii_field true to form, is sorry he found out
mircea_popescu: anyway, ima go play my game.
mircea_popescu: yallz are missing out!
jurov: mircea_popescu: you need to do sth with the inodes
shinohai never could get into gaming
mircea_popescu: jurov hm ?
jurov: oh, it has 58M inodes? okay then
mircea_popescu: jurov you making me the irc game client ?
jurov: yes.
jurov: for 2BTC
mircea_popescu: is it actually going to work ?
mircea_popescu: are you providing a "mp satisfaction guarantee" with it ?
jurov: well, you pay after
mircea_popescu: then it's a deal.
jurov: maybe i'll catch aneurysm from that cpp turd first
mircea_popescu: i see it likely
ascii_field: wai wat
mircea_popescu: (pro tip : it doesn't handle pasting atm har har.)
ascii_field: was this an open rfc ?
mircea_popescu: ascii_field i just asked him yest.
jurov: yes. you don't read trilema?
ascii_field: ah just for jurov then
mircea_popescu: ascii_field i don't want you to be doingm it, you do useful things with your time
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: fair
mircea_popescu: like being unreasonable with the pogos
ascii_field: though i'll probably end up with the bounty for the callgraph
ascii_field: if anyone does
ascii_field: because no one seems to be giving a flying fuck
jurov: and btw, there's 0.5BTC bounty for eulora on mac.
ascii_field: and that thing needs to happen
trinque: ascii_field: I spent a good part of last evening working on it
trinque: tools are all dogshit
ascii_field: trinque: yes, i recall
jurov: be quick before it gets on my nerves and i'll get some apple machine
mircea_popescu: ascii_field i think a few people are trying, but yes, as trinque says
ascii_field: there is no tool to work with, afaik
mircea_popescu: nobody realises they live in a house of shit until they try to go out the door
shinohai > mfw there is no cloud, only someone else's computer ...
assbot: Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1TjsJuf )
ascii_field: the chart needs to account for literally 100% of the src lines
ascii_field: and, conversely, contain nothing extraneous
mircea_popescu: careful shinohai next you'll buy into the cult koolaid that milk doesn't come from supermarket
mircea_popescu: and then where'll you be
shinohai: Then I'll have to buy a cow. Or marry one.
shinohai: I'm close to the state of Alabama, shouldn't be hard.
ascii_field: BingoBoingo: surprised it took so long for the shitgang to start rolling out obfuscatory smoke ?
ascii_field: 'it wasn't us, because we're the core devs, and ergo it wasn't us, fuck you'
jurov: mircea_popescu: owait, the task includes copy/paste from/to eulora?
BingoBoingo: ascii_field: Well, gavin stopped. I guess now they roll on to the next one.
ascii_field: wai wut
ascii_field: stopped what
BingoBoingo: ascii_field: Stopped commenting on qntra
BingoBoingo: Obviously something went wrong, but blaming the process, or Bitcoin Core's implementation is disingenious. Neither was this caused by wide use of old software, because old software would simply keep producing v2 blocks, so the change would never have triggered." << Ergo these new multi-block forks aren't happening
ascii_field: gotta love the philippinos
ascii_field: can crap out four paragraphs of acceptable english, adding up to nothing at all
mircea_popescu: jurov how am i going to speak here if i can't paste the assbot text ?
assbot: Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tjt7ZY )
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i assume that's laanwj
BingoBoingo: Well, he didn't sign the comment
mircea_popescu: hence assume.
mircea_popescu: because why sign things when you're "in crypto". he's an expert at counting fucking goats
mircea_popescu: "what shall we fuck today ?" "nine"
ascii_field has taken to pronouncing 'goat', 'voat', with accent on syllables, as in 'coax' cabl
trinque: blockchain wont load on this end
trinque: .info that is
trinque: ah there it went
trinque: "Warning! this transaction is a double spend. You should be extremely careful when trusting any transactions to/from this sender."
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
assbot: GSG-Elektronik - Seagate Dockstar RTC-MOD ... ( http://bit.ly/1flrcFL )
ascii_field: ^ adding the missing rtc crystal & power source to 'dockstart', machine using same chipset as pogo
ascii_field: not practical for 5,000
ascii_field: unless someone has a stable of slaves
assbot: Arch Linux ARM • View topic - Dockstar Pinout SDHC Card and I2C ... ( http://bit.ly/1flrhta )
pete_dushenski: 'double spend' block is crazy close to 1,000,000 byte over-under here : https://bitbet.us/bet/1093/bitcoin-main-net-block-size-to-increase-in/
assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015 :: 3.84 B (13%) on Yes, 25.68 B (87%) on No | closing in 4 months 1 week| weight: 41`573 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1flrrAF )
danielpbarron: !up flabkebab
ascii_field: complete schematics and pedantically agonizing docs
ascii_field: or nm, not complete
ascii_field is quite certain he saw the whole thing somewhere !
danielpbarron: pete_dushenski, guy paid 0 fees to make that thing
pete_dushenski: lol ya i guess so eh
pete_dushenski: 12 confs on it too
trinque: the system works?
trinque: or was that not what the "stress testers" were trying to demonstrate
danielpbarron: the outputs must be old enough to not set off spam filters or whatever
danielpbarron: or the guy knows an actual miner
danielpbarron: i like how the block-filling transaction cost nothing, meanwhile redditards are flipping out that they would have to pay 0.0002 if they actually had bitcoin to spend
assbot: Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/21VCJX6.txt )
pete_dushenski: https://admin.govexec.com/media/gbc/docs/pdfs_edit/price_scheme_2015q3.pdf << 40k euros for 'hacking team' to implant agent to track opponent's bitcoin transactions
pete_dushenski: not cheap !
pete_dushenski: (sorry about pdfturd)
trinque: danielpbarron: my point exactly; bitcoin's own fee mechanism defends against this bullshit
trinque: if someone really wants to "spam" let him pay the fees sufficient to do so, and he can keep that up for as many blocks as he likes, bidding against every other person who wants in the block
trinque: I have no idea what they think the 'stress test' is meant to demonstrate
trinque: 'cept that when the best platform for capitalism ever devised appears, fucktards still think markets wont work within it
ascii_field: trinque: it is abundantly clear what they are trying to do
BingoBoingo: stress test demonstrates 1MB is plenty big to allow for periodic spam attacks, and bigger blocks would make bloat attacks still cheaper
ascii_field: it being, price themselves out of tx, and then clamour for 'deeeeemooocracy'
ascii_field: the bloat attack is deliberat
trinque: of course it is
pete_dushenski: or make nodes drop off network
trinque: yet I can still get transactions through just fine
trinque: with a pittance of a fee
ascii_field: it also has the purpose of trying to thin the node herd
ascii_field: and push more fools onto 'spv'
ascii_field: for ease of usgification
trinque: sort mempool by fee and fuck the poor?
ascii_field: i still can't fathom why this wasn't sop from day 1.
flabkebab: hello
trinque: flabkebab: good afternoon
pete_dushenski: ascii_field took time for the drones to be lined up, meetings to be had, coffee to be drunk, etc.
danielpbarron: i have not noticed the "network test" except that my actual full nodes sometimes differ by (sometimes rarely) as much as a few dozen blocks before eventually settling in on the true height. My transaction sending has been uneffected.
pete_dushenski: it's not like bureaucracy, y'know, works or anything
flabkebab: So I've been having a go at the callgraph thing
danielpbarron: !up flabkebab_
flabkebab_: thanks, xchat crashed
flabkebab_: so here is the mess I have so far: http://46.101.49.39/graph.svg
ascii_field: flabkebab_: so you got a callgraph ?
trinque: looks better than my rat-king
ascii_field: that still doesn't look like ~all~ the unique symbols in the tree
ascii_field: not to mention that it is unreadable
ascii_field: my patience for 'help the mouse find the cheese' ran out when i was four
trinque: lol
ascii_field: not interested in balls of yarn
trinque: ascii_field: it's gonna take something where you can grab a node and have it trace only that one
ascii_field: trinque: we have this already!!!!
trinque: I was using "gephi" for this
ascii_field: i DON'T WANT that
ascii_field: want a fucking WALL POSTER
trinque: I mean an interface to the dot
trinque: yeah well the call graph itself is tangled
flabkebab_: hmm
trinque: can probably not be untangled in 2d
ascii_field: this one doesn't look like it even tried
flabkebab_: I also tried something less... ball-yarny
flabkebab_: Edges too close together and was also unreadbale
trinque: gephi will shake the graph out for ya with various plugins
flabkebab_: *unreadable
trinque: can change attraction params on a node, so on
trinque: still looked like shi
trinque: *shit
ascii_field: all related objects must be near one another
jurov: mircea_popescu: is the ftp server in the vicinity of your bitcoin node? it went full speed for minutes, then it suddenly throttled to 6kbps
trinque: jurov: room 101
jurov: and it's going up again
flabkebab_: ascii_field: as in, same file, or as in same cluster of linked nodes?
ascii_field: trinque: technically, packets are diddled in room 641a. room 101 is where they put rats in your face
ascii_field: flabkebab_: as in, on the picture
trinque: ah right
ascii_field: look at your picture. would you, personally, get any use out of this ?
trinque: 101 diddles *you*
ascii_field: if the answer is no - what makes you think ~i~ could
flabkebab_: ya I see.
ascii_field: taken, at random, from the net
trinque: I wrote a thing that did a force directed graph for an ebnf once
trinque: but the ebnf I was modeling wasn't convoluted inward on itself this haphazardly
trinque: !up ascii_field
trinque: that code is way simpler, or missing nodes
ascii_field: this does not follow
trinque: lemme see if I can screenshot gephi before my laptop dies
ascii_field: the graph flabkebab_ showed does not even attempt to place symbols ~anywhere near~ even one of their links !!
ascii_field: they are just dropped down in columns, in apparently random order
danielpbarron: on the topic of time and the pogo, I should point out that I recently had to update the time on my blue pogo (the one i'm using as a web server / irc client) because it had drifted from the real time by as much as a quarter hour in the few months it had been running continuously
jurov expects a discovery that satoshi cast and called functions from void*
ascii_field: danielpbarron: this is correct and unsurprising, and blows up the 'ntp once on powerup' thing
ascii_field: it has interrupt-based timekeeping
ascii_field: which means that it is severely pushed off course by events outside of its control
ascii_field: many interrupts - skipped moves of emulated clock
ascii_field: mircea_popescu ^
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16250 @ 0.00055754 = 9.06 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6300 @ 0.00055558 = 3.5002 BTC [-]
ascii_field: the callgraph thing is a straight 'travelling salesman' problem
ascii_field: but gotta minimize the crossings of the paths.
ascii_field: likewise, the 'bubbles' ought to be sized proportional to their connectivity degree.
jurov: mircea_popescu: one hour of uploading looked like this: http://www.explo.yt/net.jpg
BingoBoingo: <ascii_field> danielpbarron: this is correct and unsurprising, and blows up the 'ntp once on powerup' thing << query timeserver every modulo(rand) seconds?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37800 @ 0.00055432 = 20.9533 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: My aimful life: Building reliable SMM backdoor for UEFI based platforms ... ( http://bit.ly/1gmuBEr )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4400 @ 0.00056168 = 2.4714 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52042 @ 0.00055206 = 28.7303 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: BingoBoingo: querying it at all is problematic. see today's thread.
ascii_field: mats: read that last night. notice how it wants you to build with microshit vs!!!
ascii_field: what a disgrace
BingoBoingo: querying at all is problematic. If it must be queried though best to make the timing of queries less predictable.
ascii_field: (and before anyone chimes in with 'of course vs' - this is empirically false. can build arbitrarily complicated crapware for winblows with gcc)
BingoBoingo: ^ like Bitcoin
ascii_field: i've build drivers for winblows with mingw (gcc)
ascii_field: it is possible to develop for winblows and remain sane if you treat it like a 'nintendo'
ascii_field: that is, only for testing
ascii_field: no one writes code for nintendo ~on~ a nintendo
mats: i wonder why it failed to build on OS X
ascii_field: mats: which 'it' ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27024 @ 0.00055973 = 15.1261 BTC [+] {2}
mats: driver
ascii_field: ask him
danielpbarron: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=960.msg13833#msg13833 >> I don't understand, are you under the impression that the program sets the system clock? It doesn't. << Satoshi on bitcoin time
assbot: Warning : Check your system clock (help me) ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZeqSd )
ascii_field: we know that it doesn't
ascii_field: danielpbarron: if you missed the thread - it was about how we have no clock on pogo
danielpbarron: i have read it all; just happened upon this relevant thread coincidentally
danielpbarron: in 2010 a very similar conversation was being had over on the forum
ascii_field: and notice how it ended
ascii_field: 'folks will be expected to use ntp'
assbot: +callers:mozilla::a11y::AccessibleWrap::Shutdown() - DXR Search ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZfm97 )
trinque: dxr, that is
trinque: uses clang
trinque: that's a virtual method
ascii_field: wai wat
trinque: so perhaps if I can find where it stores the symbol table, I can get the data out of this vast piece of mozilla
ascii_field: this is the output of a proggy that can take any cpp tree ?
trinque: yeah
ascii_field: what does mozilla have to do with it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3619 @ 0.00055252 = 1.9996 BTC [-]
trinque: ascii_field: mozilla made dxr
trinque: presumably to help work on their vast wad o cpp
assbot: DXR - MozillaWiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1CobcNo )
ascii_field: this is 1/10 the battle
ascii_field: still gotta do the plot
trinque: sure sure
trinque: I am not declaring victory
trinque: just a radar blip
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41950 @ 0.00054687 = 22.9412 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18300 @ 0.00055259 = 10.1124 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53259 @ 0.00054563 = 29.0597 BTC [-] {3}
trinque: haha holy shit, dxr's "install" method is vagrant
trinque: A FUCKING VM FOR A STATIC HTML GENERATOR
trinque: BECAUSE YOU KNOW, THIS IS HOW THINGS ARE DONE TODAY
assbot: Software optimization resources. C++ and assembly. Windows, Linux, BSD, Mac OS X ... ( http://bit.ly/1CoeLTW )
trinque: these earth humans need a ritual which tests for mindless imitation in children
trinque: the ritual should be arranged such that imitating someone else without reflecting on the outcome first results in death
trinque: better yet, rather than death, a life of moving heavy objects
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29450 @ 0.00054391 = 16.0181 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22701 @ 0.00054391 = 12.3473 BTC [-]
pete_dushenski: nice one bb
shinohai: I wish my node would sync to either IP, as it is I'm stuck atm.
mod6: 349k+
shinohai: 363736 with 0 connections nau
mod6: i seem to remember asciilifeform switching over to -addnode after he got stuck. but let's see what he says about it. i'll probably hit the same issue myself.
BingoBoingo: ty pete_dushenski
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8449 @ 0.00054153 = 4.5754 BTC [-]
shinohai: I'll give that a shot mod6, been using -connect
mod6: alright, as you wish. let me know how it goes.
shinohai: Of course
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35900 @ 0.00055278 = 19.8448 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo finally trying to recreate my OpenBSD 0.7.2-ish qt build. Must have lost the original sources that worked somewhere down the line
BingoBoingo: Well, not really re-create. Just fucking up the version strings in the name of lulz
BingoBoingo: !up devthedev
shinohai: It's always in the name of lulz BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: !up Duffer1
BingoBoingo: !up btcdrak
ben_vulpes: <mod6> i seem to remember asciilifeform switching over to -addnode after he got stuck. but let's see what he says about it. i'll probably hit the same issue myself. << i don't think he did
ben_vulpes: my stator's at 225753, btw
shinohai: I switched my config to addnode, got unstuck then stopped it
BingoBoingo: 255903 on stator
shinohai: I made the sync fine until that orphaned block on the 4th
assbot: Why Greece should befriend its bitcoin foes | Fusion ... ( http://bit.ly/1NMub4S )
BingoBoingo: shinohai: My stator testbed is lucky it is too slow to have been anywhere close in time to that having been an issue, though that is still an enduring issue.
shinohai: I have a stator build working, just waiting on my pogo to get here first. Using the 0.5.3 RELEASE on my shell
BingoBoingo: My stator is just on an awfully underpowered AMD64 machine
mod6: here's something I missed: log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187292
mod6: i'll have to see when i get there i guess.
mats: it doesn't look like bitcoin is ready for prime time
shinohai: Good find mod6, I hadn't got that far back yet
BingoBoingo: <mod6> here's something I missed: log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187292 << May have to increase locks limit (why it must be there idk) for reorg robustness
mod6: max_locks & max_objects were bumped from 10000 to 40000 in this patch: http://thebitcoin.foundation/ml/btc-dev/2014-December/000024.html But yeah, perhaps it needs to go higher. I'll dig in when I get wedged.
mod6: for those who don't remember, we used to get stuck at block 252`450 before with only 10000 locks set
shinohai: Must have been before I discovered La Serenissima
mod6: it was last december.
BingoBoingo: Yeah, it was necessary to keep up with 0.8 normal. May need a still bigger boost for reorgs though.
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 268 @ 0.00406002 = 1.0881 BTC [-] {4}
phf: BingoBoingo: have you tried making static build on openbsd? i seem to recall you were running a bunch of openbsd boxes
BingoBoingo: But the whole max locks thing is a mess
mod6: phf: i built on 5.6 but I can't seem to get mine to be be statically built :(
BingoBoingo: phf: No, not yet. On OpenBSD I'm running an 0.7.2 derivative with LibreSSL 2.0 just to see how it behaves.
phf: mod6: is that with the patch i posted to ml?
mod6: it was from a patch, but not from the email you just sent in...
phf: BingoBoingo: that's a good idea, i decided to punt on it, because i don't fully understand the reasoning behind the whole 1.0.1g freeze
BingoBoingo: <mod6> phf: i built on 5.6 but I can't seem to get mine to be be statically built :( << First thing to understand about OpenBSD is that it is a weird unix. Not as weird as Linux, but differently weird.
phf: mod6: nudge nudge wink wink
mod6: phf: maybe you posted this to the channel? anyway, this is the one I used: http://dpaste.com/28PF9DV.txt
BingoBoingo: phf: It sync'd and so far it hasn't forked outside of the ways other Bitcoins have
mod6: ok, so I should just use your patches just posted then
phf: mod6: yes, though they are conceptually similar to the one from dpaste
mod6: read your readme... so yeah, months and months ago I was able to build a dynamic bitcoind on openbsd, but that was the exact issue after statically linked: seg fault.
mod6: lemme try this out :]
phf: cool!
assbot: How will Subway pitchman Jared Fogle weather FBI investigation? ... ( http://bit.ly/1NMzYHs )
BingoBoingo: ^ expect in channel soon?
BingoBoingo: Like Shrem?
trinque: lol
BingoBoingo: Or does he walk with Brock in YCombinator
trinque: why do all the chimos have a certain look about them?
BingoBoingo: Thur Genetics?
trinque: who knows
trinque: there's a sort of pudgy, sunken-eyed, pasty-white I invariably associate with "hide yo kids"
BingoBoingo: But still, that isn't the complete type. It's the entire shape of the face: very, very Anglo
funkenstein_ is loving the discussion of time in the logs
BingoBoingo: trinque: Looks just like it
trinque: heh
BingoBoingo: !up Luke-Jr
williamdunne: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel was checking my rates, out of interest what is my association with gamingfurry.tumblr.com?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
williamdunne: Morning all
mod6: Buenos Dias
mod6 has to ramp up on espanol for c4
williamdunne: I would also like to learn Spanish, on my to do list
williamdunne currently has a neck that looks like Cheetah fur, lovely patterned bruising
mod6: i used to be fairly fluent 10 years ago, now. not so much lol.
williamdunne: I had compulsory German and French lessons for 4 years in state education. Went about as well as expected. My entire vocabulary in both languages is "Bonjour", "Guten Tag", "Ich habe ein gross hose schlange", and "Ich bin zwolf jahre alt", along with a few words of no use on their own
mod6: haha, sounds familiar.
trinque: williamdunne: ich arbeit im krankenhaus
trinque: there, that about does it for my german
williamdunne: State education?
trinque: duolingo lol
trinque: took spanish in high school; I can understand more than I can say
williamdunne: I couldn't even update "Ich bin zwolf jahre alt" to make sense in my current state without the assistance from google translate.
williamdunne: In fairness, even in RO I could understand half the crap because its still latin
williamdunne: Reading French is even easier IMO
shinohai: I speak fluent Taco Bell
williamdunne notably did qualify for a non-state school scholarship at a language school, after passing the aptitude tests. Further highlighting the failure of state education
trinque: "puedo comprender mas que puedo hablar" ??
trinque checks himself with google
trinque: google likes it I guess
shinohai: I'm ok with Spanish. Could probably carry on a convo though it has been a while/
trinque: german I've yet to get past the myriad articles
trinque: near as I can tell, there is no logic to them
shinohai: I'm always impressed with how well Germans speak English
trinque: you just grow up knowing that "*der* Tisch"
trinque: shinohai: heh maybe it's german easy-mode
shinohai: Nearly every one I have met speaks far better English than half the Americans I know.
trinque: having merely dabbled in german, there seems to be a preciseness or specificity to it
trinque: all the articles for example
trinque: "this one out of the set" vs "this one" vs "that" ... so on
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu i'm pretty sure i... solved it!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: asciilifeform: time?
asciilifeform: doesn't help pogo
trinque sounds the horn
asciilifeform: the ~other~ time
shinohai passes a glass of his Absinthe to asciilifeform
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 18:51:43; ascii_field: let's imagine, briefly, that i ~do~ find.
asciilifeform: not sure how much good this'll do anyone.
phf: that would be second famous margin note, after fermat's
asciilifeform: phf has it
asciilifeform: which is why before saying any more, i will have to model it.
trinque: fascinating
asciilifeform: other folks can perhaps work it out if i say that the solution is based on dynamic 'predator-prey' equilibrium
asciilifeform: the realization comes from the fact that you don't really need accurate time, just an oscillator that is reasonably independence of amplitude
asciilifeform: *independent
asciilifeform: that cannot be slowed or sped up at will by any given participant
asciilifeform off to eat
phf: lamport clocks?
assbot: 'Hackers' give orders to German missile battery - The Local ... ( http://bit.ly/1LRh8Au )
mod6: phf: do you patches depend on anything besides stator?
mod6: ( i patched in ascii's dump/eat block as well, but got a bunch of errors I didn't get last time ): http://dpaste.com/0C67TTN.txt
phf: mod6: that's the last part of readme, you want to build with gmake instead of make (pkg_add gmake)
phf: ooh, wait
phf: i think that's the errors from environment variables not being set
mod6: oh nevremind.
mod6: i screwed up i don't have realpath installed.
mod6: ok rebuilding
trinque: mod6: which openbsd package provides realpath?
mod6: no idea. i just swapped that stuff out for the fullpath, but gernika reminded me that one can usese readlink -f
mod6: *use
trinque: ah k
assbot: Police add insult to injury after mugging - Baltimore Sun ... ( http://bit.ly/1LRi2Nj )
mircea_popescu: fucking pizza delivery man ++
mircea_popescu: i dunno there's a sadder indictment of the decaying west.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hm ?
assbot: Andrew Hamilton, "Race in the Early Films of D. W. Griffith" | Counter-Currents Publishing ... ( http://bit.ly/1dKROyb )
menahem: omg what is that photo ? insert and expand ?
BingoBoingo: menahem: You must be new here
menahem: ha, fairly. mostly read.
mircea_popescu: in that photo is a mechanical pear
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 21:00:28; pete_dushenski: not cheap !
menahem: ahh ok, used in the mouth!
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1192198 << it meant to demonstrate bitcoin doesn't work if it doesn't work on the redditards' terms. it managed to demonstrate instead redditards don't matter, even when they pay for the voice.
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 21:02:02; trinque: I have no idea what they think the 'stress test' is meant to demonstrate
mircea_popescu: which is why this place (ie, bitcoin) is so fucking beautiful.
mircea_popescu: also why it's so fucking disconcerting to the welfare mass.
mircea_popescu: they truely believe it is a natural truth that their existence is all that's needed.
decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1192416 < i've heard that the reason he lost so much weight at subway was because he was stalking some chick who worked there
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35907 @ 0.000557 = 20.0002 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76993 @ 0.00056793 = 43.7266 BTC [+] {4}
mats: thats the first positive outcome to stalking i've heard of
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 21:05:13; ascii_field: i still can't fathom why this wasn't sop from day 1.
mats: lose a shitload of weight, gain eight digits in your bank
mircea_popescu: mats you know all the girls i knew for the first i dunno, decade of my life i got through stalking ?
mats: define stalking
mats: hiding in the bushes, tracking movements, masturbating to her shadowy figure in the shower?
mircea_popescu: well, the most famous and i guess exemplare case is, mp stops car, tells shadow : follow that girl. guy gets an address, mp gets a phone number, talks to puzzled woman. explains that he had her stalked, would she like to have a cup of coffee
decimation: asciilifeform: I'm not sure what you are thinking, but my idea is to use the 10 minute block time as a noisy oscillator
mircea_popescu: she says sure, she's going for a cup of coffee. i ask where, she says "tell your guy to find out"
mircea_popescu: mad scramble throughout town ensues.
mircea_popescu: i would like to assure the concerned public that no flower bouquets were involved in any of this at any point.
assbot: Last 8 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2Q31J0Z.txt )
williamdunne: Oh good, flowers really would have made the whole situation rather strange
mircea_popescu: williamdunne it's a reference.
decimation: pogo can keep time by comparing its clock to the block discovery interval, averaging over a long period
mircea_popescu: decimation and expect it to come to what, 9 ?
mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 364334 | Current Difficulty: 4.940201493122746E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 364895 | Next Difficulty In: 561 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 1 hour, 33 minutes, and 54 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: ;;calc 364334 / 6/ 24/365
gribble: 6.93177321157
decimation: it would take a few difficulty inervals
mircea_popescu: it would appear we are no less than a year into the future.
decimation: what is the rate at which new blocks are found?
decimation: in seconds?
mircea_popescu: ideally. irl more like 530ish
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 21:14:04; jurov: mircea_popescu: is the ftp server in the vicinity of your bitcoin node? it went full speed for minutes, then it suddenly throttled to 6kbps
mircea_popescu: in like utah or some shit
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 21:30:21; ascii_field: likewise, the 'bubbles' ought to be sized proportional to their connectivity degree.
mircea_popescu: jurov that's a pretty weird graph considering the gaps aren't even same size o.O
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: 530 is pretty ideal, no? Sign of difficulty growth
decimation: you could fit a curve instead of line over a given interval
mircea_popescu: well ideal in what sense ? it's very unideal for his idea of timekeeping, because it proves (what we already knew) : time is meaningless and political time conventional, and all sorts of nutty fashions can endure a long time. ie, 350k blocks in this case.
funkenstein_: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191982 <-- i thought she was going to jump back into jupiter's head a few days ago.. off on her merry way again
assbot: Logged on 07-07-2015 19:54:23; decimation: maybe I should start watching venus too
mircea_popescu: decimation the problem of fitting real time to blocks is in fact going straight to the root of the world. solve it, get nobel.
decimation: funkenstein_: lol
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: I guess. At the very least the cause of it is good though
mircea_popescu: or whatever actual respectable prize the nobel used to be
decimation: eh, it demands some modeling
mircea_popescu: noit a bad way to burn time, this assay.
williamdunne: I did a judging thing at teh loebner prize before. Was pretty lulzy
funkenstein_: i've heard tell of a distributed clock that might meet your needs
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69900 @ 0.00057271 = 40.0324 BTC [+] {4}
decimation: heh I got your entendre
funkenstein_: it's a prototype, the code might need some cleaning up
decimation: funkenstein_: what's that
funkenstein_: some financial software or other ;)
decimation: funkenstein_: were you the one studying clock intervals in bitcoin
funkenstein_: yes, i speak of bitcoin :)
funkenstein_: the quantity the a miner needs to report is the time since the last difficulty change
mircea_popescu: listen shorty, you read the log ?
funkenstein_: yes, enjoyed it.. sorry you are probably sick of this time talk already
mircea_popescu: wel lcause youre approaching it fresh
funkenstein_: other than that quantity, the rest is offset
mircea_popescu: yes, magical offset in that you don't know who's lying.
funkenstein_: genesis block tells you most of that offset
mircea_popescu: does not. looky here. block is 100, timestamp is 100, allowable max drift is 100.
mircea_popescu: block 101 arrives, at timestamp 150, advertising timestamp 101.
mircea_popescu: you set your timestamp to 101
mircea_popescu: block 102 arrives, at timestamp 200, advertising timestamp 250.
mircea_popescu: you reject it and now you're forked.
funkenstein_: the longest chain wins
mircea_popescu: the longest ACCEPTABLE chain wins.
funkenstein_: right right
mircea_popescu: kneejerk the dwarf wtf!
funkenstein_: we can't know what procedure miners are using to set their own clocks
mircea_popescu: that'd be the problem.
funkenstein_: it's basically a jury duty scenario, you found a block, do your best to tell us what time it is
mircea_popescu: that's not how trustless works.
funkenstein_: well I think asciilifeform is formulating a more specific attack so that should be interesting
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> so much as opening pogo and touching inside multiplies the cost of the operation. << and yet mircea_popescu had this done
ben_vulpes: for lulz as far as i can tell
mircea_popescu: for tests.
mircea_popescu: now if i ask dpb something about it, he can answer sensibly.
ben_vulpes: well clearly. just making a joke.
ben_vulpes: now, as you say, interested parties could find a rate for diddled pogos.
ben_vulpes: and on top of that, his error rate cracking them open is probably zero. small sample size, but...
mircea_popescu: no, it's not. he said some bits got broken
ben_vulpes: ah, my mistake
ben_vulpes: !up Vexual
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 00:56:00; williamdunne: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel was checking my rates, out of interest what is my association with gamingfurry.tumblr.com?
mircea_popescu: the .. .baby face ?
williamdunne: Furry definitely isn't something I'd label myself with
danielpbarron: it's kinda tricky getting them open. I had to scuff up a credit card and yeah some of the inner clips got cracked
danielpbarron: and it took about an hour to do 12 of them
williamdunne: I might be into some things, but anthropomorphic animals aren't one of those things
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1192570 << at the risk of 'fleischmanning', i will say a little about the concept even though i am not yet done working it out
assbot: Logged on 08-07-2015 02:03:34; mircea_popescu: decimation the problem of fitting real time to blocks is in fact going straight to the root of the world. solve it, get nobel.
asciilifeform: won't be earning any 'nobels', there is no way in heaven or hell that it could be retrofitted to bitcoin proper
mircea_popescu: take yer time
asciilifeform takes mircea_popescu's advice, hushes
Vexual: hehe
mircea_popescu: ands now i shall leave you with http://41.media.tumblr.com/5f930017bebc54ed7b2723594a70d5f0/tumblr_n8xsxzmnYv1r8wl2xo1_1280.jpg while i go make moar coarse frangible threads
menahem: ahh shit thats cray. :D
assbot: Tinder date woman finds novel way to hit back at man who told her she was too fat to fancy - Mirror Online ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZxPmc )
mod6: phf: hey it worked! sync'ing now... http://dpaste.com/1SZSGAJ.txt
funkenstein_: mod6, nice!
mod6: yes, this is fantastic really.
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: could he have been much nicer about it?
BingoBoingo: williamdunne: Not at all, bitch needs to stop being a Ham.
asciilifeform: http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/21730/how-does-the-kimoto-gravity-well-regulate-difficulty << not related either to my idea or to pogo. mechanism used in one crackpot altcoin to dispense with need for absolute clock
assbot: algorithms - How does the Kimoto Gravity Well regulate difficulty? - Bitcoin Stack Exchange ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZy3tA )
asciilifeform: (just need to time a block interval)
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: Tinder causes this issue, experienced it in RO
BingoBoingo: Really
williamdunne: Aye, which was remarkable really. Didn't see any others. She was very nice and I still talk to her, but headshots and angles are good at lying
assbot: Development update | Vertcoin Developers Blog ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZydRx )
asciilifeform: from ~other~ crackpot alt.
asciilifeform changes gloves, gas mask filter
funkenstein_: seemingly a PID controller would be best for difficulty adjustment, however simplicity is a stronger argument
asciilifeform: this, again, isn't even related to what i was thinking of. but encountered by accident.
BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform changes gloves, gas mask filter << Shouldn't you step away from the cesium dust first?
asciilifeform has not been keeping track of crackpot 'coins' since 'litecoin'
funkenstein_: speaking thereof: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ci25k/the_current_spam_attack_on_bitcoin_is_not/
assbot: The current spam attack on Bitcoin is not economically feasible on Litecoin : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZywvF )
BingoBoingo: williamdunne: Here the pic/reality discrepancy is so bad in a lot of cases it is like a fat person killed a normal with similar hair and started living their life.
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: Yeah, she was definitely the same person. Only the body was not what the angles would have you believe
williamdunne: Don't believe she was wearing someone else's face either
assbot: Bitcoin Address 162TRPRZvdgLVNksMoMyGJsYBfYtB4Q8tM ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZyTGB )
williamdunne: funkenstein_: In his defence, the litecoin solution actually seemed like a pretty good way to handle it
BingoBoingo: I mean seriously here, the faces look different. Literally have to be using other people's pictures.
asciilifeform: i mean, why has nobody picked it up
asciilifeform: 0.00541 is good money
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: I don't understand how they don't think "oh, maybe they'll be confused when they see me in person?"
BingoBoingo: williamdunne: hollywood gave them broken expectations. The moral they complain about is "look good get laid" when they take the worse insane moral of "the protagonist is witty and spechial"
assbot: Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/21AC41Z.txt )
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: like anything else that works even though 'shouldn't', this works
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: Are you suggesting that our tumblrina protagonist isn't witty, or special like the most specialist of snowflakes
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: except none of that crud is operative, it works from an elementary 'pigeonhole theorem' - many cocks, few parking spots
williamdunne: Drinking law in the UK is even more lax than I had realized
assbot: Alcohol and young people - GOV.UK ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZzPe9 )
BingoBoingo: No, example. Drinking at the bar with some friends. One fire up "Tinder" girl with nice pictures takes a cab across the mississippi river and walk into the bar. Diameter more than half her height. Recognizes friend, friend has no idea who she is.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: she will get laid that day. whereas 90%+ of normal-looking blokes - won't.
asciilifeform: l337 m4rk3tz
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Note that in North America gay rights became popular as femal obesity rates spiked
decimation: lol blockchain.info is still posting 1-size blocks
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i suspect that everybody who came from the factory with that vernier not glued down, is turning it, yes
asciilifeform: decimation: link ?
assbot: Bitcoin Block Explorer - Blockchain.info ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZA5db )
mats: lol
decimation: 2 in the last 30 minutes
mats: such social commentary
asciilifeform: ph0rkz!!!
decimation: I guess.
asciilifeform: ph0rkr4pht!
decimation: it would be interesting to know how blockchain.info gets its data
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: she will get laid that day. whereas 90%+ of normal-looking blokes - won't. << She apparently even managed to fuck this up. Reportedly gave friend sad handjob and blackmailed for attention the next day with promise of putting out eventually. Was driven to bar in the ghetto and left (could not run to vehicle in time to stop it)
williamdunne for a while no longer has to worry about getting laid
williamdunne: decimation: carrier pigeon, although it's suffering with pattern baldness
decimation: I hope those 'bitcoin core' dumbfucks are happy with the progress they are making
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: i suspect that everybody who came from the factory with that vernier not glued down, is turning it, yes << 31337 social engineering
williamdunne: It really is remarkable how blockchain.info didn't go down the goxhole, they just consistently break
asciilifeform: because nobody really relies on it for anything
asciilifeform: hence failure - no problem
assbot: Bitcoin Block #364343 ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAcW6 )
williamdunne: "MyWallet" ?
assbot: Bitcoin Block #364339 ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAdcG )
decimation: interesting 364343 was relayed by 65.182.235.207
BingoBoingo: williamdunne: When piuk rolled out blockchain.info it was the best block explorer. Once he stopped doing everything it swiftly went to shit and got Andreas'd
decimation: which is purported to be in canby, oregon
decimation: wasn't that where the bctc guy lived?
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: I can't tolerate any of them currently. Blockchain.info is constantly broken, and all the others have these horrible gaudy interfaces.
decimation: it appears the coinbase one agrees with blockchain.info https://bitcoin.toshi.io/#block
BingoBoingo: williamdunne: And this is what temps me to fuck with running an electrum server. To run a private block explorer accountable only to me when it barfs
williamdunne: BingoBoingo: no bootstrap plz
BingoBoingo: WHen have I ever used bootstrap?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.0005515 = 4.9635 BTC [-]
williamdunne: It seems to be a default option, not a personal accusation
williamdunne: Qntra style would be lovely <3
assbot: Welcome | Phuctor ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAQ5O )
williamdunne: asciilifeform: Scoopbot doesn't deal with phuctor, that's trinquebot
asciilifeform: and what is 'marketplace.i2p' ?
williamdunne: asciilifeform: I'd presume a marketplace on i2p
asciilifeform: well sure
asciilifeform: but ~what~
asciilifeform: anybody got a box running i2p?
asciilifeform: i can't be arsed
assbot: The Market Place - An Anonymous Market Built To Enable Trustless Transactions. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZB4de )
williamdunne: mabbeh that one
decimation: asciilifeform: it strikes me that your choice of location is to some degree a 'prisoner's dilemma'.
decimation: everyone in your meatwot could probably get a better deal if they lived somewhere cheaper
asciilifeform: like botswana
decimation: but 'cooperation' in moving together is much more expensive than 'defection' to the local area
decimation: hell, west virginia
asciilifeform: one fella did
asciilifeform: now he sits in car for 4 hours instead of 2
trinque: to be fair, west virginia is a shithole
decimation: heh well that's not very much moving
decimation: trinque: sure, but it wouldn't be if people moved there
trinque: maybe so
decimation: why do they all defect to the big city every day
asciilifeform: it would also cost what maryland costs
asciilifeform: if folks moved there
trinque: most notable thing I recall about WV is that giant teapot
asciilifeform: elementary.
asciilifeform: as soon as you start moving in folks with money, it stops 'being cheap'
asciilifeform: the rent collectors don't sleep
decimation: asciilifeform: partially because more dollars are 'created' to bid up assets
assbot: Canadian flew over Calgary in chair carried by balloons - BBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZBMqN )
williamdunne: Hilarious, he's being charged for this
asciilifeform: even if dollars were conserved
decimation: I suspect that problem wouldn't be as pronounced with a hard-banking hard currency
decimation: sure, folks would bid up assets, but the vast majority of bids in the wash dc area are 'zombies'
decimation: ie usg passthroughs
asciilifeform: and our collective salaries - aren't ?
trinque: "Mr Boria has been charged with mischief causing danger to life and could face further charges." << wait... his?
decimation: heh good point
decimation: the question is: how much of the money that is 'freshly printed' by the fed or a bank part of the wash dc bid?
decimation: that's theoretically measurable
asciilifeform: at this point, i don't regard any aspect of the whole orchestra as honestly measurable
asciilifeform: other than - just possibly - by the perpetrators
williamdunne: trinque: Yes, his. Unless they're suggesting his stray garden chair could mysteriously strike someone down
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:29; asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'
decimation: you could multiply direct gov spending by the 'print factor'
decimation: but that would only capture a portion - it would exclude the portion magicked into existance by banks
asciilifeform: what does one get from multiplying one work of fiction by another ?
asciilifeform: let's multiply width of unicorn's horn at its base by the length of yeti's cock
asciilifeform: equals depth of mermaid's snatch ?
decimation: then map the yeti/uni/heat cock
decimation: I guess it would be a useful as the map that nyt ran which indicated the density of racists over usa
asciilifeform wonders if they recycled map of communists from '50s or bothered to make a new one
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCowG )
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCuEv )
asciilifeform: 'Mr. Schumer said a federal law requires toy or imitation guns to feature a highly visible orange mark at the end of the barrel to identify them as harmless. Since the phone case does not have the marker, he said, he would work with customs officials to block its import and sale.' << l0l! srsly?
asciilifeform: 1) spray orange paint on 'thompson' 2) pull out in front of police 3) ??? 4) profit!!!111!
decimation: asciilifeform: note that the police are rarely punished for shooting innocents
decimation: http://users.humboldt.edu/mstephens/hate/hate_map.html# < note that 'nigger' correlates with large black populations, similar for others
assbot: Hate Map ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCQv1 )
asciilifeform: latest memo to police almost certainly reads 'plz shoot only white, thx'
mats: 'chink' doesn't correlate to california at all
mats: or any place with large asian populations that i'm aware of
mats: worst app ever
asciilifeform: mats is surprised to discover that unicorn's snatch depth does not correlate with mermaid's cock length ?
decimation: mats: note that the 'normalize by the number of tweets'
decimation: thus effectively discounting the liberal population centers
asciilifeform: thttp://www.hardforkcoin.org << for entomologists only!111!!1
decimation: so the self-serving bastards can come to the conclusion that those rednecks out in the sticks are the real racists
mats: so what i need an inverse contrast map
mats: and avoid everything else
decimation: heh yeah
mats: thats a lot of america
mats: but i knew that already
funkenstein_: metastudies of tweets <-- totally useless waste of time
assbot: Unamusement Park » Blog Archive » Blacks ruin Fourth of July in Baltimore; media censor race ... ( http://bit.ly/1HMCsW0 )
decimation: guy found tweets by black people in baltimore back during fourth of july 2011, when there was violence
asciilifeform: isn't that the fella who got 'beaten to death by accident' in a johannesburg police station ?
decimation: heh it might be
asciilifeform: i recall the liberast blogosphere laughing maniacally about this
asciilifeform: 'racist gets just deserts'
decimation: he seems to have posted in janurary
asciilifeform: perhaps it was the one who did 'across difficult country'
asciilifeform: i forget.
asciilifeform: don't give much of a shit any more
mats: i'm enjoying the tweets on that link, decimation
mats: ebonics has so much... variety
funkenstein_: i talk with criminal slang
funkenstein_: i read some tweets once, it was when dorian was being collected
funkenstein_: after that i vowed never again
decimation: mats: amusingly 'unamusement park' is totally blacklisted from all search engines
decimation: !up Vexual
Vexual: i think alf set his clock
funkenstein_: reminds me of Eddie Murphy's grandmother: "What time is it?"
funkenstein_: it might be an interesting simulation to see what would happen if not only all nodes but all miners had no real clock
funkenstein_: difficulty would stay constant I suppose
Vexual: can you describe celestial navigation to decimation?
funkenstein_: well the latitude is easy
funkenstein_: for longitude, i believe there is a book by sobel or something
decimation: http://asteroidoccultation.com/asteroid.htm < you can see local asteroid occulations
assbot: Asteroid Occultation Predictions (Current) ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZEfl2 )
decimation: you can calculate them yourself with winblows turdware and usg provided emphemeris data http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/occult4.htm
decimation: longitude requires knowledge of time
Vexual: what if your tables are from 1997?
funkenstein_: nothing under magnitude 10, makes it difficult on my canoe
funkenstein_: but I like it anyway
Vexual: what canoe?
Vexual: how far do you paddle?
funkenstein_: figure of speech
Vexual: aha
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