Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-07-18 | 2019-07-20 → ↓
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, sucks.
mp_en_viaje: the problem with your stance is tha tthey do not want your custom.
mp_en_viaje: fish shop without any fish does not need fish buyers who expett to get fish for any reason. does enough "trade" with "classic" "traditional" "typical" etc "customer" who merely talks about fish and fish buying. exactly like http://trilema.com/2014/business-whatever-that-may-mean/#selection-203.288-207.25
mp_en_viaje: see the dudes standing around ? "userbase". "so how come you have no money ?" "ins'allah"
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923443 << but of course. once precious cuntlet ends up importent into any process flow, you know for a fact it won't get undone willingly -- it's either burn it down or forget about it. (pc is this thing, you've surely seen it, the dumb chick who thinks she's got a "career" out of "following 3 ring binder". the exact other half of the dumb chick who thinks "nobody can call her a slut" because she's dressing poorly
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 02:30 asciilifeform: aaand their reply .
mp_en_viaje: and misbejaving sexually
mp_en_viaje: the problem, of course, is that b) is still a slut, just, a very shitty one ; and a) still doesn't have a career, she just also doesn't have any friends.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923447 << so did linus. the problem with the behaviour standard is that pantsuit aligned agent can appear to behave sanely for lack of actual testing for any arbitrary length of time. eg, my clay pot also has behaved sanely as hammer for lo these past 3 weeks -- principally because i've not had need of any hammers 3 weeks straight.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 02:59 asciilifeform: dunno, behaved sanely for 12+ years.
mp_en_viaje: had you said "undo your process for my sake" at any point, you'd have discovered the same thing.
mp_en_viaje: this is rather why i don't really deal with entities unwilling to go outside of their standard flow, it's like an initial test. because if they don't, i know what they are, and well...
mp_en_viaje: eg -- some "self-serve" items will do table service for me, some will come over to tell me i gotta go to them, and run into the "you already walked here, now take out your pen". 100% DO NOT take out the pen, because if the precious cuntlet's dumb enough to actually march over to whine at me about her incronssequential worldview failing in practice, she's sure as fuck not about to drop it. she's
mp_en_viaje: rather decided to matasareanu herself all over the altar of her precious cuntlet mattering in the world.
mp_en_viaje: the fact that young girls do this a lot more than young boys, these days, is the principal reason of white man culture failure, btw.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923456 << yes but trb was last worked upon i dun even recall, 2015 ? when we decided we have to fix everything else first. in between then and now, medical science made some progress
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:08 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-17#1923105 << I followed the same model for depwads that don't belong to the republic as was followed in the trb build toolchain.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923461 << gb size PATCH yes, and is forbidden. GB sized GENESIS not the same thing at all. plox to not confuse vpatch and genesis! patch says, "this is a change i'm making to an item, plox judge ~the change~. not the item. the item is taken for granted". gensis says, "this is an item i'm proposing ; please judge it".
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:09 asciilifeform: trinque: imho GB-sized vpatch makes a mockery of very concept.
mp_en_viaje: IF one does not want gb sized ~genesis~, then ONE MUST NOT USE THE ITEM. yes, usage against this is tolerated against. but the day will come when it's "sorry, your X can not interop with republic, either get rid of it or get lost yourself". and i fucking mean that, too, maybe not today and maybe not tomorrow, but it will fucking happen.
mp_en_viaje: because that's the very correlate of republic, and of selectivity and of changing the world, as opposed to social club.
mp_en_viaje: and so, given that we've decided "something like the item will have to exist" and also "the actual item may be just as good a starting point as anything, and in any case better than pen, blank paper, and alf's scheduler", thus therefore it follows, mandatorily and undisputably, that there will be a bunch of large genesises.
mp_en_viaje: in fact, the above is actually happening ~even today~ : "
mp_en_viaje: When version 5.6 is removed, I will have to pack up and leave. By imposing these changes, you will have lost a customer of 12 years. And probably not only one." says exactly the same thing.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923463 << this being why the wot system even exists : so ten dozen different worms can work together, digest mysql codebase or w/e, and produce a usable item. which yes, once it's made can be re-genesised into sanity and we can safely forget the name mysql. but until then, work.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:10 asciilifeform: even 100MB is pushing it. i dunno if i, personally, will live long enuff to read 100MB of cpp.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923467 << it can not be "graft the src as territory is actually captured". it has to be "graft all the src in, start capturing among it".
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:11 trinque: yes, now graft in the src as territory is actually captured
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923475 << aha, i recall this part of the orig. discussions
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:19 asciilifeform: possibly with granular billing ('femtobitcoin per cpu cycle' even, or the like) or not, but in principle possible.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-14#1922400 << meanwhile the cause for this was discovered : yui.yahooapis.com/2.5.2/build/yahoo/yahoo-min.js yui.yahooapis.com/2.5.2/build/event/event-min.js yui.yahooapis.com/2.5.2/build/connection/connection-min.js all 404 ; so whatever's your timeout that's how long pages take to spuriously load.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-14 08:12 mp_en_viaje: so since thelastpsychiatrist.com went all fucking stupid (cloudflare aside, and mountain of pointless js aside, there's a spurious 1min delay before any pageload also now!), i scraped the article list both from archive page and category page, and downloaded the list.
mp_en_viaje: and what hapened's 100% what happened with "nearly free speech", linux and everyone else : they "upgraded", thereby breaking the abi, thereby destroying history -- because obviously the dead don't chase updates.
mp_en_viaje: in other such, cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/odd.html now dead.
mp_en_viaje: http://archive.is/cD1NH << previous version, just as dead.
ave1: 4096-bit RSA key, ID 14D30364, created 2017-05-18 "ave--"
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/odd-comments-and-strange-doings-in-unix/ << Trilema -- Odd Comments and Strange Doings in Unix
ave1: mp_en_viaje: sticky keyboard or mouse
feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/thelastpsychiatristcom-according-to-time-the-worlds-most-influential-person-is-adnotated/ << Trilema -- thel....com - According to Time, The World's Most Influential Person Is.... Adnotated.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: make me a shared hosting account with wp installed please; bill it for one year and let me know if there's something else you need from me
diana_coman: it turns out mulling will have to do its thing while action goes on.
diana_coman: I mean ofc mp-wp there.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: in case you need it: the domain name for it is younghands.club
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: ty, will get you set up today
girlattorney: is luke jr high in this video about bitcoin future? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU6tGj5VdYw
girlattorney: i saw also he was here on irc a couple of years ago
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923482 << pretty obv. from the answer, heh
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 05:37 mp_en_viaje: the problem with your stance is tha tthey do not want your custom.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923485 << entirely troo, and worth to carve in stone somewhere..
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 05:42 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923443 << but of course. once precious cuntlet ends up importent into any process flow, you know for a fact it won't get undone willingly -- it's either burn it down or forget about it. (pc is this thing, you've surely seen it, the dumb chick who thinks she's got a "career" out of "following 3 ring binder". the exact other half of the dumb chick who thinks "nobody can call her a slut" because she's dressing poorly
trinque: this "gb genesis is fine" thing comes as a surprise.
trinque: in light of years of threads on the subj.
trinque: my intent here was to have the vtree read as a history of the items as they have been understood, not as "here's the wad of shit diana_coman needed one day so we put it all in and signed it"
asciilifeform: trinque: it's 'gordian knot' that has to be cut ~somehow~. consider, as of yet asciilifeform cannot vtronicize that kernel patch, cuz... no kernel genesis.
asciilifeform: ditto gcc.
trinque: we agree the work isn't done, but I fundamentally disagree that gb genesis is the move
diana_coman: trinque: the trouble is that you need to start from somewhere and that somewhere is "this wad of shit"
asciilifeform: trinque: how wouldja do it ?
trinque: moreover it would've been great to have someone raise this objection when I was posting alphas of the thing for months
diana_coman: so how do you suggest to start? because even if I have this ebuild, I can't patch it because effectively, no sources so what am I patching exactly, just the ebuild script? how does that help?
trinque: I told you what work would be necessary to make having the src in the tree do anything in the last thread.
trinque: "fuck you I deal only in platonic ideals" is not a way of interfacing with the world
trinque: there are several changes to portage that'd have to happen before it's going to build any src you make part of that tree
asciilifeform: trinque: imho worth to write article re subj
asciilifeform: atm trinque afaik is the only 1 who went deep enuff into the portage guts to know the detail
trinque: diana_coman: did you yet read, understand, clean, and swear to the foregoing re: curl?
trinque: or did you just need it?
diana_coman: trinque: my experience is that portage will happily build sources that are locally in /cuntoo/distribution (iirc.); so I don't understand re "won't build"
diana_coman: trinque: not cleaned no, not swearing either; hence mp_en_viaje 's earlier observation that I'm not vpatching but genesising and those are different precisely because genesis is a place to start (be it a wad of shit) not "this thing I can swear to "
trinque: mk, so anything we don't feel like reading we just cram into the genesis for our children to swim in
diana_coman: I don't want curl in the genesis, lolz
diana_coman: I want however A genesis from where to be able to start
diana_coman: you know, I went into this+curl because you said oh noez, nobody is doing ebuilds etc
trinque: sure. and if you disagree with my incrementalism, that's fine too.
trinque: we did exactly "here are the filthy deps we don't understand and will probably abandon" in trb, recall
trinque: we did it by hash reference
trinque: if you can graft in an understood curl somewhere ~and~ get portage to use that src I'll applaud
diana_coman: trinque: I suppose I don't *understand* the incrementalism you see there; because there isn't something I can follow "from this genesis he did this vpatch cutting that out etc"
diana_coman: or is your objection to using V for verifiable-incrementalism or what
BingoBoingo: Mocky: ty
trinque: my objection is that nobody here knew how to build a linux aside perhaps 3 folks.
trinque: my first step was to enumerate the wads of ??? needed
trinque: now someone can read the genesis and know what goes into the recipe
trinque: from there, yeah, learn about curl
trinque: learn about runit or hell glibc
trinque: musl, w/e
trinque: but having crammed them all into the genesis ruins the "what's a linux" overview
diana_coman: but enumeration is not "know what wads goes" , how does this work? how is "a wad called soandso" enough?
trinque: so as I said, if you can now vpatch in an ~understood~ curl, do it, and make portage build it, and show me how
trinque: diana_coman: I'm going to have to leave. my final point is that this "do it all perfectly and yesterday" is a great way to never go anywhere
diana_coman: the "perfectly" is your addition
diana_coman: and precisely what you are throwing back that "oh, but you want the shit in the genesis,no!"
asciilifeform: trinque: the root of problem is how to do the GB-of-shit to kB-of-food conversion w/out genesising the shit
diana_coman: as I get it, you want genesis to be only something-perfectly-understood; that is the perfection that is not possible and that nobody is asking for
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje evidently also had nfi how, and so prescribed 'genesis the GB of shite'
asciilifeform: i also haven't any better idea atm.
asciilifeform: e.g alternative of asciilifeform's 'here is my hash of mp's gpg-1.4.10' thing is fundamentally sinful , cuz not in fact vtronically contiguous w/ original
trinque: I mean, if it's what's wanted, somebody else step up, and I'll trash the item I made.
asciilifeform: in fact, recall how trb 'chicken' genesis was a hand-cranked recipe, cuz had to delete binary gif turds etc and vtron of the time could not autodigest such deletion
trinque: asciilifeform: I really don't care what the perfectly preserved historic curl was, so long as the revised item passed through a single human head in my wot
asciilifeform: trinque: sure. but you can't have vpatch w/out a genesis that actually puts the original on the machine, or what am i missing
diana_coman: trinque: ftr there is no talk whatsoever of trashing the item you made, no idea where that came from
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:53 trinque: "fuck you I deal only in platonic ideals" is not a way of interfacing with the world
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:04 trinque: but having crammed them all into the genesis ruins the "what's a linux" overview
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 05:50 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923456 << yes but trb was last worked upon i dun even recall, 2015 ? when we decided we have to fix everything else first. in between then and now, medical science made some progress
a111: Logged on 2017-12-23 20:42 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS! : http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-December/000281.html
a111: Logged on 2017-12-24 22:54 ben_vulpes: mod6 asciilifeform et al: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-December/000282.html
a111: Logged on 2017-02-26 18:01 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS!
a111: Logged on 2017-02-23 23:52 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS!
a111: Logged on 2018-10-20 01:47 asciilifeform: meanwhile: ACHTUNG, PANZERS! >> http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-October/000315.html
a111: Logged on 2018-09-29 22:11 asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, panzers!!! http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000312.html << .
asciilifeform: and prolly i missed a few by other folx (e.g. mod6 had at least 1 in recent 2y)
asciilifeform: thing is, trb is imho mature in re 'knobs' , the time nao is to ~cut~, slice an' dice an' replace with adaistic prosthetics
asciilifeform: certainly has NOT 'stood in place since 2015' tho. i would not want to use the trb of '15 in preference to the current.
asciilifeform: ( can't speak for all, but -- lacking 'aggression' , node 'zoolag' routinely was behind 100+ blox as often as not )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923563 << not sure i'd even include self in this number, of yet. ported kernel to 'machine' that never before existed ( the 'cpu' is mips1, but the 'periphs' naturally correspond to no physically existing irons, of yet.. ) and this was entirely new puzzler to asciilifeform ; but not yet ported trinque's userland, and of yet nfi where to begin there
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:03 trinque: my objection is that nobody here knew how to build a linux aside perhaps 3 folks.
asciilifeform: revisiting upstack : hey mod6 , did 'who-gave' ever make it into flagship vtree ? ( i dun see it there ... )
asciilifeform: ( imho 'makesnap' oughta also be considered, but admittedly may be of 'niche' interest )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923538 << trinque if you have an alternative algo that avoids giga-genesis, i'd really like to hear about it asap, before we start genesising 100MB of kernelade complete with autoconfisms etc
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:52 trinque: we agree the work isn't done, but I fundamentally disagree that gb genesis is the move
diana_coman: asciilifeform: as far as I understand it, trinque's algo is http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923467 aka in a way the precise opposite: we don't actually have cuntoo at all; we have (genesised) just a map and the rest is a sort of "for illustration purpose only"
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 03:11 trinque: yes, now graft in the src as territory is actually captured
diana_coman: fwiw, taking the above view, I can fully see his despair at "but why don't you have the sources in there?" ; the only puzzler is how exactly does he see the above as more practical and pragmatic than the plain "this wad of shit is what cuntoo is atm, worms and mud and all"
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923535 << well, i dunno, be specific as to where ? there's whole discussions as to how "make diff keys if you must", for instance.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:51 trinque: my intent here was to have the vtree read as a history of the items as they have been understood, not as "here's the wad of shit diana_coman needed one day so we put it all in and signed it"
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923543 << aside from the apparent divergence as to what means what / what is implied by what / etcetera, you seem to be developing a more biting divergence in thsi signalling thing. i let pass http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-14#1922463 in silence, but apparently it wasnt such a wise course. what do you mean, exactly, "i told you what work" ? it's not apparent that's a priviledged function for some reason, you can't
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:53 trinque: I told you what work would be necessary to make having the src in the tree do anything in the last thread.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-14 22:25 trinque: diana_coman: congrats. the next step would be to produce a vpatch which adds your curl ebuild atop the genesis.vpatch the bootstrapper produced.
mp_en_viaje: just up and start "telling what work" in trilema, ESPECIALLY seeing how you've not so far done such an impressive job "telling what work" in #trinque, so as to, for instance, rescue ben_vulpes from his grave.
mp_en_viaje: you're aware of this flow, are you ? i allocated him to you so that he becomes more like you, not so that you become more like him.
mp_en_viaje: there's approximately 0 need of telling what work, and immense need of the actual work. if you'd like to shine, shine that way ; you can start for instance with a http://bvt-trace.net/2019/07/todo-items-and-work-plan-jul2019/#selection-11.0-23.54 ,to cover the seven month old http://trinque.org/2018/11/27/cuntoo-bootstrapper/
a111: Logged on 2019-06-22 06:45 mp_en_viaje: leaving aside how a rate of progress of 0 items / week for week after week after livelong week puts extremely low demands on my time and attention -- far, far from requiring it be a central locus of my focus, republican 2019 as seen so far would have worked just as well if i gave it an hour biweekly, and i don't mean twice a week, i mean every other week -- there's just no need to keep the engine running on big brutus for the "j
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923552 << exactly. it is marginally better than merely dropping portage on their head ; and it is ideologically defensible because guess what, if they don't like the genesis they don;t have to either patch on it or press it.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:58 trinque: mk, so anything we don't feel like reading we just cram into the genesis for our children to swim in
mp_en_viaje: all discussion to shock and surprise aside, this is the fuck exactly how trb genesis happened, too. nobody wrote a good one, just picked an actual one and genesis'd that.
mp_en_viaje: and yes, it included fucking bdb, as well as all sorts of stupid crap, which no, nobody swore to this very day ; not because nobody read, either. nor do i expect anyone will ever swear to bdb trb component.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923558 << hash reference is useless for this purpose, because of the very meaning of a hash -- you can't get the hashed source back out of it. the hash worked well enough for trb because ~everyone has ~all versions and so it's a narrow and well documented domain. the hash will not work (and, experimentally, in plenty of cases you weren't involved with, failed to work, because the domain is 2+ degrees of magnitude v
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:00 trinque: we did it by hash reference
mp_en_viaje: ast-er, and nobody stores it all, quite deliberately, because everyone fucking hates it, not loves it like they love bitcoin.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923563 << you keep struggling with this issue, and it's unseemly. looky, you didn't invent computers. you weren't there when ken thompson shocked himself on the pdp or when richie papercut himself with the unix manual or when etcetera. you're fifth generation, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. plenty of people hacked away at linux or at unix or at whatever the fuck else back when you were installing l
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:03 trinque: my objection is that nobody here knew how to build a linux aside perhaps 3 folks.
mp_en_viaje: ego bricks around the house. this doesn't make them some kind of magic gurus, nor does it make your own understanding of the systems and processes involved somehow inconsequential. why does it constantly have to come back to this purely psychogenic, oh, nobody reads, oh, nobody can sit down a kernel, whatever the hell ? it's just not a way to go about things, nobody's achievement is diminishing your own nor does your achievement necessarily require
mp_en_viaje: the putting down of others, aite ?
asciilifeform sees trinque's pov, many times was wedged on a problem where 'i have 95% of solution but for the remaining 5 -- ugliest turd ever seen' . but must agree with mp_en_viaje -- you can't get orig text from a hash, and can't vpatch if you aint got orig
mp_en_viaje: i can see his pov too, the only problem is that he picks some utterly terrible approaches.
mp_en_viaje: there's this strange habit in many places in eastern europe, including romania, where peasant houses, even two room houses, get a "front room" which is never lived in. the family deposits "the good stuff" there, never uses it, goes in for two hours a year during easter or w/e.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923610 << i admit even considered possibility that the orig gentoo is heavy enuff and fulla stones and trinque broke teeth trying to eat. but cannot say definitively .
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 14:13 diana_coman: asciilifeform: as far as I understand it, trinque's algo is http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923467 aka in a way the precise opposite: we don't actually have cuntoo at all; we have (genesised) just a map and the rest is a sort of "for illustration purpose only"
mp_en_viaje: whatever its merits from a religious pov, it's fucking insanely inconvenient. what am i supposed to say here, "oh, now that we have v, let's not use it, and instead work on everything outside of v" ? and what... let's design... u, for preparatory work for v ? and what, make it different from v /
asciilifeform: at one pt i thought same re asciilifeform vs. trb . ( then mp_en_viaje unwedged me , he had bdb notes , '14 )
mp_en_viaje: i recall.
asciilifeform: ( for n00bz -- trb was 'tank w/out treads' for, iirc, 1st 6+ months, until this )
mp_en_viaje: "works ok on railroad rails!"
asciilifeform: if 'portage' cannot be cut into vtronicizable parts, it'll have to be thrown, tertium non datur
mp_en_viaje: i might be wrong, but as far as i can see portage will work just fine on a pressed pile of code.
asciilifeform: if accept '100MB genesis' , then most of 'portage' is actually redundant, and as i understand whole thing can be replaced with a slightly mechanized vtron
mp_en_viaje: possibly.
mp_en_viaje: i dunno dood, part of the problem of this is that until we see it we haven't seen it.
asciilifeform: ( for folx innocent of classical gentooism -- the main function of 'portage' is to walk dependency chain ~between proggies~ and build'em in correct order. )
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, it's entirely possible we'll end up with a ~pile~ of genesises.
asciilifeform: already have pile
asciilifeform: q is whether also can have vtronic 'cartilage' to connect the stones in the pile.
mp_en_viaje: and phf's drop down list is getting crowded
asciilifeform: was 19 items last saw
mp_en_viaje: in other sads, Berlekamp bit it back in april apparently.
asciilifeform: ( lotsa things that oughta be in it, tho, aint -- e.g. ave1's gnat, my kernels, etc. cuz nuffin to patch against )
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i recall finding that comba died right when was writing comba's algo.
mp_en_viaje: the gardner set's pretty much gone
asciilifeform: on bright side, 'lizard' set also thinning, e.g. last week -- perot
mp_en_viaje: that, incidentally, is the worst stone to swallow, for me. say what i might about "oh, symbolics/whatever people were idiots", sure, why not. but these guys, they FUCKING TRIED getting math torch passed. and i know of no way it could've been done better.
mp_en_viaje: but... not passed.
asciilifeform: requires to have to-whom, neh
mp_en_viaje: supposedly there's always to whom. but ... in practice...
asciilifeform: !#s rabbit hat
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923625 << was a sort of cheat tho, the genesis did not actually include bdb etc ~textually~ . so maintained illusion of 'trb is this 300kB of shitoshi'
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 14:57 mp_en_viaje: and yes, it included fucking bdb, as well as all sorts of stupid crap, which no, nobody swore to this very day ; not because nobody read, either. nor do i expect anyone will ever swear to bdb trb component.
asciilifeform: which , i fear , gave folx unrealistic expectation
mp_en_viaje: maybe.
asciilifeform: at the time i dun think there was even thought yet of 'must confiscate gcc' etc
mp_en_viaje: at the time there wasn't the need. notice how all the destructoforks happened just about the time we announced v.
asciilifeform: then 'ada renaissance' and suddenly 'hey gnat dunwork' and so on
mp_en_viaje: was multi pronged, there's me having meltdowns over eulora not compiling either, and so on.
asciilifeform: fast-fwd to nao, when asciilifeform goes into what formerly 'obvious nuttery', i.e. 'let's genesis a whole machine arch'
a111: Logged on 2019-07-18 04:09 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-17#1923138 << yep, it's what's inhibiting my otherwise natural and arguably required "holy shit wtf is this weird, stop now" reaction.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-17 12:25 asciilifeform: the incident where i glued together rk pilot plant, to only ~then~ find out that nobody knows when the fuck proper gnat will actually build arm binaries w/ working threading, was instructive.
asciilifeform: ( and then! then! last nail in coffin -- rk3328 goes outta print )
a111: Logged on 2017-03-26 15:03 mp_en_viaje: basically a novel vector of imperial attack seems to be this "let's take republican items and ~EXPAND~ the downstream so that siberian river attack is then feasible".
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923569 << ruins nothing, add it as a comment file "here's your blueprint". gets the incalculable benefit of proper tooling, can now reference meaningfully.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:04 trinque: but having crammed them all into the genesis ruins the "what's a linux" overview
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923635 << funnily enuff , asciilifeform's parents have 1 of these, lol
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 15:18 mp_en_viaje: there's this strange habit in many places in eastern europe, including romania, where peasant houses, even two room houses, get a "front room" which is never lived in. the family deposits "the good stuff" there, never uses it, goes in for two hours a year during easter or w/e.
mp_en_viaje: good for them ; but i don't.
asciilifeform: me neither
asciilifeform: 'nazi submarine' right off doorstep.
mp_en_viaje: should be good enough.
asciilifeform: guest: 'is that.. bear trap?!' a:'what's the problem'
asciilifeform: there's a scene in 1 of mp_en_viaje's fictions where almost literally depicts asciilifeform's torture room
asciilifeform: can't seem to find in O(1) tho
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923572 << dood, nevermind the "yesterday" and dramatis persona generally. last i saw stuff from you it was A DIFFERENT YEAR. what yesterday ?
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:05 trinque: diana_coman: I'm going to have to leave. my final point is that this "do it all perfectly and yesterday" is a great way to never go anywhere
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, well, any detailed specifics ?
asciilifeform: was scene where 2 d00dz sitting by a table, and it is full of mobos, rifle optics, cpus, unspeakable wirings, etc
asciilifeform: 1 sends for daughter to come and undress an' show its wares etc
asciilifeform: this kinda thing aint a point of pride for asciilifeform , would rather sit in well-tidied workbench. but in fuckholeistan where real estate costs like on space station -- even commercial labs look same.
mp_en_viaje: ah yes. titless.
asciilifeform: there we go.
mp_en_viaje: wh ythe fuck are our selections different ?!
asciilifeform: was thinking same q this morning
mp_en_viaje: holy fuck wtf
mp_en_viaje: the dom is not stable enough to have meaningful count!
asciilifeform: currently suspect sumthing to do with verticality of asciilifeform's display
asciilifeform: cant think why else just yet
asciilifeform: ( complete with 'danish butt', laugh if you will. i no longer eat'em, but gotta keep the screws, 74xxx, rejected FG components, ..., ..., somewhere! )
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, aha, i have a bunch of them ~same reason
asciilifeform: at one time i made regular visits to tobacconist, even tho do not myself cigar. to buy : boxes.
mp_en_viaje: cig metal tubes pretty good for all sorta uses. decent butt dildo in a pinch too.
mp_en_viaje: disease of american capitalist.
asciilifeform: i found one as a boy , had nfi what it was
asciilifeform: brought it to usa. later found, 'romeo & juliet' cuban, circa 1970s
asciilifeform: apparently in su they were sold at one time errywhere, but sat on shelves, ~no one wanted, no one knew how to smoke'em properly
asciilifeform: ( untutored folx would try to smoke'em like cig, an' choke )
asciilifeform: castro's payment for the rockets.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923602 << yes yes. i wasn't contemplating an indictment, i mearly meant, we, sometime cca 2015, discovered that any heavy lifting re trb gotta wait, for some terraforming work.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 13:34 asciilifeform: certainly has NOT 'stood in place since 2015' tho. i would not want to use the trb of '15 in preference to the current.
mp_en_viaje: which is why we're working on build toolchains and kernels and whatnot, in lieu of, eg, trbfs.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: 'heavy' was pretty much all '15 aha
asciilifeform: (e.g. orphanage snip, 'seeds' snip)
mp_en_viaje: eventually hit a wall
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: frustratingly, i have the 'trbfs'. but grrrr gnat bugola
mp_en_viaje: yeswell
asciilifeform: ( the O(1) tx store . )
asciilifeform: tho, tbf, most of it wrote in '17
asciilifeform: ( it was only then that even devised the algo, during thread w/ mp_en_viaje re 'trbi' )
mp_en_viaje: this extensive travel is going to make finding shit in a few years SO fucking painful. "i wonder, did i say mircea_popescu ? mp_en_viaje ?"...
mp_en_viaje: wtf am i gonna do here ;/
asciilifeform has same problem, from back when 'butugychag' etc
mp_en_viaje: we'll hafta come up with something
asciilifeform: i usually end up searching for what the folx who were 'at home' had said in $thread .
asciilifeform: typically nails it.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923618 << if i recall, they're sitting in same common grave / salt mine in tx somewhere, atm
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 14:46 mp_en_viaje: just up and start "telling what work" in trilema, ESPECIALLY seeing how you've not so far done such an impressive job "telling what work" in #trinque, so as to, for instance, rescue ben_vulpes from his grave.
mp_en_viaje: well, the reason i don't really know what's going on would be that... never said.
asciilifeform: ( i dun think the particulars were ever detailed , but evidently salt mine that dun leave much juice left when whistle blows in evening )
mp_en_viaje: i guess so.
asciilifeform: iirc ben actually had own shop, in the north, but then moved south for moarmoolah
asciilifeform: but nuffin else was said.
asciilifeform: 'golden age' of ben in re trb etc was when was in own shop .
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 00:43 ben_vulpes: and so the girlies shack up with other girlies, the boys retire to secular onasteries, and they all think it precisely tits.
mp_en_viaje: in other sads, rotten.com is gone ?!
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: since '17
a111: Logged on 2019-05-08 23:20 asciilifeform: grr i was gonna add that famous lathe meat-wind pic to this thread, but cannot nao find.
mp_en_viaje: do you recall that arguably famous-er pic of the guy on the er table with hips turning cyanotic hugging a telephone pole up his ass ?
asciilifeform: almost certainly saw
mp_en_viaje: seems it's gone also.
asciilifeform: net o'brokenlinx
mp_en_viaje: in other horrible news : it's confirmed, the selection thing is ~~~BROWSER SPECIFIC~~~
mp_en_viaje: the fucking cuntheaded imbecile anti fucking human MORONS made it so you can't, actually, have in-page reference that works reliably.
mp_en_viaje: selection thing works by counting dom elements, and, guess the fuck what, different browsers build the thing differently, resulting in different counts.
asciilifeform: it's a wonder that even displaying text worx reliably
mp_en_viaje: what the fuck am i going to do
asciilifeform: when i was sawing the thing apart , thought 'why not make selector search for start/end chars until finds unique, then sel displayer ditto' but did not get to trying this
asciilifeform: possibly someone handy with jsism could attempt ( lobbes ? )
mp_en_viaje: what if i want to select the third duck in duckduckduck ?
asciilifeform: if this is the ~only~ text on the page, then start='duck', end='duck' neh
asciilifeform: ( if not -- 'xyzduck' and 'duckpqr' respectively, where xyz/pqr are context)
mp_en_viaje: this completely the fuck fucked me over thoyugh, 100+ links, hand picked all, now useless.
asciilifeform: not necessarily useless, could autoconvert to $form
asciilifeform: i'ma defo do mine, if this is baked
mp_en_viaje: fucking insanity.
asciilifeform: mountain of insanity, 100km tall
asciilifeform: is what www browserism is.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, so your idea is, recursive search ? user selects "duck" in abcduckefg, the script tries "c" sees if unique, if yes uses, if not tries bc, if unique uses if not abc etc ?
asciilifeform: ( after google bought opera & buried in cement, became 'de facto standard' microshit-style. nao behaves 100% like 1990s microshit, does whateverthefuck it wants )
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: correct
asciilifeform: idea is, selector knows what the selection is, when it is made, ~that~ part worx errywhere
mp_en_viaje: and it'd look like #selection-abc-efg
asciilifeform: could possibly compress for link shortening, but yes
mp_en_viaje: should prolly compress, to avoid comma in url.
mp_en_viaje: who else is there, billymg ? Mocky ? either of you got a moment to do this ?
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, if you compress, now stuck putting lzw, in js, on every page
asciilifeform: who said lzw.
mp_en_viaje: whartever compress you use.
asciilifeform: simple run-length encode worx as well
mp_en_viaje: i guess that's not so lengthy
asciilifeform: coupla ln of jshit , i expect
asciilifeform loox in his notebook and finds also 'hm why not let mp-wp highlight selects on server-end, so machines w/out js display highlights' but also never attempted this, notenuff phpfu
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: re select, potentially you can get away with storing only left side + character count
mp_en_viaje: i honestly like this better.
asciilifeform: e.g. 'duck+4'
asciilifeform: tru, left+right makes for human-readable selector
asciilifeform: potentially can decode on box where no js, by hand grep
mp_en_viaje: highlight selects on server end, hmmmm
asciilifeform: see, i fuckinhate js
asciilifeform: have it switched off on most boxen
mp_en_viaje: problem is, ss selection will look weird.
asciilifeform: how so ?
mp_en_viaje: now you're stuck with "how will fucktardedbrowser display"
asciilifeform: no more so than w/ js selectism neh
asciilifeform: make it look exactly same, if liek
asciilifeform: i haven't yet found browser that doesn't render text colour when asked
mp_en_viaje: local "select" behaviour is always defined, but afaik there's no exposed "make it look selected" call
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, of course, if one's doing server side no need to grep, count start, count end
asciilifeform: naturally not. you'd have to put in e.g. <span style="blah">....</span> or whatnot. and 'anchor' so thing scrolls to it.
mp_en_viaje: the dom construction / abomination varies, but my articles are still mysql fields, unchanged
asciilifeform: and correct, if server-end munge, you dun need the displayer js at all
asciilifeform: only need js for select-maker
asciilifeform: ( would do roughly same thing as presently, but munge the url in browser so when loaded, gives server-end selectified copy )
asciilifeform: bonus, in machine log could see what readers like to select.
asciilifeform: all of this may or may not be worth the effort. but perhaps worth to try.
asciilifeform brb:teatime
asciilifeform peeks at the nfs forum crapola; nao with 'nya-nya' from peanut gallery, bonus.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 02:30 asciilifeform: aaand their reply .
mp_en_viaje: in continuing sads : /me attempted to spec the server side php job ; and it can be done, roughly, there exist primitives for, eg, "insert this after nth word and that after mth word". however : a) this interferes with the footnotes, because footnotes exist as z (( b)) and not as displayed on page ; and b) there's no good way to # and ? at the same time because of the way trilema handles title-urls.
asciilifeform: i thought footnotes were html anchors
asciilifeform: or is this in re the internal representation
mp_en_viaje: the internal representation.
mp_en_viaje: server side amirite.
mp_en_viaje: a ((b)) c ((d)) appears as a b --- c d on-page.
mp_en_viaje: and there's also no way to have trilema.com/article-title/?start=5&end=7#selection
mp_en_viaje: can has trilema.com/article-title/?start=5&end=7 OR trilema.com/article-title/#selection but not rly both.
mp_en_viaje: this is so fucking broken ;/
asciilifeform: could in principle trilema.com/article-title/5/7/#selection ?
asciilifeform: cut it up on serv side into operands, do Right Thing
mp_en_viaje: ah that's an idea huh.
asciilifeform has nfi whether this is trivial to implement , or headache
asciilifeform: the thing already cuts into /-separated chunks, tho, neh.
mp_en_viaje: nfi either, but we find out soonish
asciilifeform: upstack: imho best form would be 100% plaintext, sumthing like trilema.com/article-title/rubber/ducky/ . then! can also ~select~ by hand crank, without jsism, if want , on box w/out jsism
asciilifeform: ( down side -- would need the backend to search with ignoring of spaces, commas, etc )
diana_coman gave all computers around work to do for the next hours so she goes happily to sleep.
asciilifeform: goodnight diana_coman
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, that'll never work though, because obviously it'll try to find an article by that name
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: why's that ? name is what's b/w the 1st 2 / , neh ?
asciilifeform: /article/title/
asciilifeform: /article-title/
asciilifeform: why would it matter what's after the 2nd / ?
mp_en_viaje: afaik the name's hacked into an article via htaccess, which is yet another pointless and poorly specified scripting lang atop the shit tower
asciilifeform tried several times, never got his htaccess thing to work correctly, hence why still has barbarian ?=xyz titles
mp_en_viaje: consider some simple examples : http://trilema.com/pili works, takes one to http://trilema.com/2016/pili/ which is the cannonical form. http://trilema.com/pil also works
asciilifeform: unsurprisingly they dunwork ~now~ , but could be made ?
asciilifeform does not know how, exactly, so will have to leave it there
asciilifeform: the proposed format aint mathematically ambiguous, i can write it as regexp say. but whothefuckknows what the programmatic liquishit getting in the way might be.
mp_en_viaje: well, here's the thing -- IF you move the "extract data from uri" into php, you lose... url replacement.
mp_en_viaje: the ~only~ way to have that indirection layer, is to use htaccess
mp_en_viaje: i mean obviously one could modify apache to be less fucked in the head, but ...
asciilifeform: loox like finally a potential justification for spyked's thing
mp_en_viaje: it does, at that.
mp_en_viaje: as things stand, the ~only~ way to have user think url is "trilema/pili" while url really is trilema?p=65 or w/e it truly is, is via htaccess, which is like javascript written by monkeys in 1980
asciilifeform: rright, just thinkin' about .htaccess makes asciilifeform's stomach go
asciilifeform: pretty typical specimen of 'we ameritards, did it over friday beer an' pizza' kludge
mp_en_viaje: in theory you could possibly htccess script-fu something like domain/a/b/c into domain?q=a&w=b&e=c ; HOWEVER, the problem is the domain space is currently narrow.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: what if sel operands were to go on ~left~ side ?
mp_en_viaje: and i use this ~extensively~
mp_en_viaje: in fact, it might be the one thing on the web i most use.
asciilifeform: e.g. trilema.com/rubber/ducky/2018/pushing-the-soft-flesh-and-so-on-against-the-so-and-so-blades-of-the-immutable-machine-etcetera-second-installment/
asciilifeform: then narrow domain for'em, and can easily detect whether present
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, admire the weird : http://trilema.com/2016/44/pili and trilema.com/2016/44/32/21/11/pili/ respecrtively
asciilifeform: trilema.com/foo/bar/2016/44/32/21/11/pili/ btw loads even nao...
asciilifeform: ~correctly~
asciilifeform: nao all you'd need is to pluck out that foo and bar
asciilifeform: and use'em to bake highlight
mp_en_viaje: moreover, with prefix, what do you do with trilema.com/4 ? currently it (correctly) finds http://trilema.com/2012/40-vs-80/
asciilifeform: ( iirc php gives you copy of full url ? )
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, it does not load, it just wipes your string
asciilifeform: ah so if the page renderer asks for url, it dun see foo, bar ?
asciilifeform: (i.e. gets eaten by htaccessism ? )
mp_en_viaje: o fuck me, it MUST see it
asciilifeform: gotta, neh
mp_en_viaje: ok this might be major breakthrough here
mp_en_viaje: tjhis, incidentally, is EXACTLY how tower of shit was even built in the first palce
asciilifeform: towers o'shit are cumulative, noose at 11..
mp_en_viaje: now ima tell someone "look what weird shit we found, USE IT" and they won't dare say "why"
asciilifeform: 'new shithouse will be built from bricks of the one we blew up'(tm)(r)(lenin)
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923536 << yes, and "cuntoo" would've contained it if I took the wad-of-shit-in-genesis approach.
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 12:51 asciilifeform: trinque: it's 'gordian knot' that has to be cut ~somehow~. consider, as of yet asciilifeform cannot vtronicize that kernel patch, cuz... no kernel genesis.
trinque: I started from an item that was 900mb and that was just the ebuild tree.
trinque: not having to be able to read vpatches is, lets say retrospectively declarative.
trinque: at the very least I'd want to say "this is the one with kernel in it"
BingoBoingo: So, it appears Iran took two British ships and released one with a warning.
trinque: at any rate no, I'm not doing a man-month of rework on the thing any time soon. not standing in the way of anyone else doing it either.
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc we don't yet even have a vdiff that'd eat 900M
asciilifeform: even if 'yes want'
asciilifeform: i.e. it's a theoretical (if somewhat burning) q, rather than 'ohnoez, trinque Did It All Wrong'
trinque: and I don't fault mp_en_viaje his ideological rigor. not in the slightest.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923622 << the whole rest of history then requires this multi-gb genesis long after the resultant item has been carved to however many mb
a111: Logged on 2019-07-19 14:52 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-19#1923552 << exactly. it is marginally better than merely dropping portage on their head ; and it is ideologically defensible because guess what, if they don't like the genesis they don;t have to either patch on it or press it.
asciilifeform: trinque: indeed does. bitter pill. but sorta like bitcoin requires that 300GB (an' counting) of liquishit, 4evah
trinque: rather than having a perforation point which can be torn off, preserving the references for whichever historian that cared, but *not importing the shitwad into the future indefinitely* was the point
trinque: asciilifeform: the vtree for bitcoin is not and never will be 300gb
asciilifeform: i meant the blox, trinque
asciilifeform: it's the same thing, imho, the cost of being able to trace the history to birth of universe, is having to keep it around
trinque: this regresses infinitely.
asciilifeform: nao what i'd really like is to ditch the idjit unixdiff's reversible deletions
asciilifeform: where if you snip a MB, ~that patch~ now weighs 1MB+
asciilifeform: there's no fucking point to that, if we keep genesis of orig
asciilifeform: trinque: how does 'regress infinitely' ? plox to elaborate
trinque: by way of example, why does your p not contain gnat
trinque: and inb4 IT WILL, I know!
trinque: why doesn't it today?
asciilifeform: imho this is the real open q in the thread -- how to represent relation b/w nominally separate proggies
asciilifeform: each of which by all logic wants to be sep. vtree, but are dependent functionally
asciilifeform: if can solve this cleanly, can then be rid of portage, even, in principle
trinque: this I think correctly runs afoul of mp_en_viaje's "there is only one fucking tree, and it does not loop"
trinque: see, I'm this perverse fellow that knows the scripture even.
trinque: and agrees, yet sins
trinque: asciilifeform: the point being yes, we can be rid of portage, but where are the steps between there and here.
trinque: might as well say what I'm doing with my time lately, which is related. I'm horking down bitcoins by the $10k, what
asciilifeform: i suppose beats alternative where burning life in salt mine and ~not~ piling up coin
trinque: it's shitty, lol, but what am I going to hold when I'm 40.
trinque: upstack, trying to capture linux in this manner might've been a fool's errand. might be that a muntzed kernel and a busybox-like are a saner beachball to eat.
asciilifeform: is actually all i got atm in the mips thing -- busybox
trinque: I've lived in it, isn't so bad
asciilifeform: ( + 'dhrystone' lol )
lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: trinque: thinking about it, 1 possible answer to the puzzler is to make an entire orchestra as 1 vtree.
asciilifeform: trinque: the obv. toothbreaking stone is gnat.
asciilifeform: iirc at one time mp suggested this, 'there oughta be ONE genesis'
asciilifeform: but iirc this was before we even gnat'd
trinque: I'd be surprised if that stone doesn't haul in all the rest
asciilifeform: trinque: to expand -- currently gnat srcball aint a complete description of gnat. i.e. it demands existing gnat. iirc was described pedantically in old thrd.
asciilifeform: mipsism is a half-solution, of sorts, in that can build a mipsistic gnat and then will execute anywhere you can port the 12kB emu to
asciilifeform: but not 'troo' solution
asciilifeform: afaik nobody has troo solution of yet.
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