Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-04-07 | 2019-04-09 → ↓
feedbot: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/04/mes-part-2-bootstrapping-guix/ << bvt's backtrace -- Mes, Part 2: Bootstrapping Guix
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906980 << yes ; progressing from a gentoo fork end, from an ada-as-systems-language end, from a bitcoin-has-to-be-an-os / needs-own-fs end, and from a few other too small to list yet.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:17 OriansJ: So I hear there is some interest in bootstrapping architectures here
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906987 << the lordship list is over at http://trilema.com/2019/antiqua-sanctorum-patrum-or-the-lordship-list-sixth-year/ ; those are all (if not the only) contributors. in the immortal words of joe polito, "i'm telling you, as a courtesy. i need to do this thing, so it's gonna get done".
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:26 OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906994 << the long term expectation, along with the only possible direction, is the republic prevailing, in this as any other matter. there's a lot of ideological debt you may be interested in i guess.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:45 OriansJ: BingoBoingo: well I guess we need to discuss short term vs long term expectations as those pieces seem to be multiple pieces pulling in different directions
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907005 << this part is actually up in the air ; and premature yet for me to call for discussion or attempt a standardization process. from your pov, however, likely the most shocking aspect is that the republic doesn't consist of the usual developer, ie http://trilema.com/2018/and-in-todays-lulz-the-obnoxious-cocksucker/ aka the enthusiat dork who sees himself as some kind of trailblazer, finding new ways into the
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:51 OriansJ: well let me ask it this way; are you planning to use a posix subset or a subset which will portable upon posix and other OS bases?
mp_en_viaje: unknown that'll then be travelled by "the many". the republic's not about the many, and our committment doesn't stem from or waver with adoption.
mp_en_viaje: meanhile in local flavour, /me is having a very credible sasuage, bean, poached eggs on toast, extra stout guiness breakfast at this rather coquettish pub, while watching the waitress tryina pick up the maintenance man.
mp_en_viaje: (she's not getting anywhere)
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907008 << this is so ; actually if you feel like writing an as-complete-as-feasible list / essay it'll prolly turn into quite the workable schelling point for further discussion there.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:53 OriansJ: BingoBoingo: I agree POSIX has a great many flaws but there are some ideas inside of it worth preserving; especially in regards to bootstrapping.
mp_en_viaje: got a blog ?
mp_en_viaje: btw, how's the cold asciilifeform ?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907014 << actually my own questiosn are different. line 1 : is this a live project or is it mostly scar tissue left behind a dead dude a la http://trilema.com/2016/cat-vorg-adnotated/ ; line 2 how pantsuit-infested is it, actually, can we work together or will we have to fork if we intend to. basically, "looks remarkably good, i wonder what's the catch" phase.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:57 bvt: to my understanding there are two questions: 1. what are the requirements to the architecture 2. what is the first interim stop after a post-M1 assembler?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907031 << one actually wants to have an antifuse boot rom, yes.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:12 OriansJ: If one doesn't want to have a boot rom; one needs either a hardware tape reader (which writes tape to memory on power on and jumps to address 0 to run it or a toggle board. A serial bus just moves the bootstrap trust issue to another piece of hardware
mp_en_viaje: phf, can there be had eta for http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-05#1892960 then ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-05 18:46 phf: mircea_popescu: is the idea that message like logotron will render it as just "logotron" in html?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907037 << did you see the ivory xray sets ? people here will trust what they can verify, quite literally. the trust model is built atop the wot, which is quite fundamental to how stuff works here.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:25 OriansJ: well, I guess a really important question to ask is at what level of lithography people here actually have trust? (1 transistor, AND Gate in TTL, 100 Gate ALU, 1000 Gate ULA, 10000 Gate Asic, .... FPGA, 1B+ gate CPU, etc)
a111: Logged on 2018-09-01 03:10 mircea_popescu: anyone feel like going to qatar btw ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-09 06:08 diana_coman: oh hey, how's Qatar, Mocky ?
diana_coman: oh hi mp_with_bratwurst
mp_en_viaje: not in munchen nomoar.
diana_coman: better seats?
mp_en_viaje: and talking of zee germanz : a) lufthansa dun have offices anymore, it only deals through agents ; b) which charge a fee ON TOP OF A FEE. because lufthansa not only doesn't operate offices anymore -- it charges anyone who does 16 euros. it's like they think they're a happening nightclub or something, gotta pay a cover to be allowed to pay for drinks.
mp_en_viaje: but! c) i show up, explain i got 3 people but ~200kgs of luggage (i'm fucking diana ross over here) and their idea was to.... pay for ticket, after which show up at airport, ~with no carrier guarantee whatsoever~. "pay us so many thousands to put yourself in such a spot, we can ask for any moar moneyz we think of".
mp_en_viaje: who the fuck does business like this ? besides pichis, thieves & co ?!
diana_coman: lolz; lufthansa has been going very sad over the so-many-years really
mp_en_viaje: they used to have 100% of my euro biz, back when i last was in yurp.
mp_en_viaje: then again, british also had my business in the 90s. they went early & bravely into sad nobody had sadded before.
diana_coman: 200kg of luggage for 3 people?!! lmao
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907026 << i can't conceive what small endian ~even is for~. what is it for ? i'm against even supporting it altogether, you want to computer, use a computer that netowrk oders.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 23:06 OriansJ: Big Endian instruction and data encoding seem the most obvious great ideas for simplifying the task of bootstrapping (especially in regards to troubleshooting)
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, stripper heels, buttplugs, electronics, i got like 14 suits... it's heavy, what.
mp_en_viaje: 200kgs for one thing ; and then... at a bitcoin a kg or some shit...
diana_coman: it's not hard to have a lot of luggage, sure; though I never really regretted having smaller luggage as it were (and I almost always find it too big, too much anyway!)
mp_en_viaje: depends what you're doijng, you know, if i go to visit prague for a week i don't take the whole menagerie.
mp_en_viaje: but since ima be this side for a while...
mp_en_viaje: not like i took the cars or etc.
mp_en_viaje: ALL MUH ARTWERKS!!!
diana_coman: I wanted to ask whether Bartholomew went back to its roots!!
mp_en_viaje: fucking "memories of datapoint" anti-design bullshit. bleargh.
mp_en_viaje: in other obscura, since this apparently wasn't yet in the logs : re http://btcbase.org/log/2013-04-15#-12420 , winlink!
a111: Logged on 2013-04-15 00:28 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly relevant to your future "Bitcoin over shortwave" station: http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a207831.pdf
mp_en_viaje: "The system used to run several central message servers around the world for redundancy, but in 2017-2018 upgraded to Amazon Web Services that provides a geographically-redundant cluster of virtual servers with dynamic load balancers and global content-distribution." ie well ripe.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907040 << this is actually a solid point.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 00:45 OriansJ: I've been exploring the logs and one thing you may wish to know about bootstrapping MIPS is humans writing assembly need only 7 registers (I round up to 16 to include Stack pointer(s) and Condition register(s) and if my goal was optimize for C compiler performance, I would have gone with 64 registers (architecturally unified between the Integer unit and the Floating point unit but leveraging the trick of the DEC Alpha 21264 and
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907044 << i actually don't think "floating point" is a good idea altogether.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 01:00 OriansJ: We definitely don't need hardware support for floating point though (just a set of defined encodings for floating point instructions and a clean exception mechanism which allows an operating system or a library to implement via software routines)
mp_en_viaje: it's arguably a defensive hack in the era of the 8 bit byte ; but with 64 bit bytes... gimme a break, what does legacy nonsense buy anyone. no "floats".
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907057 << it was remarkably painless in munich ; some turkish i think dood in a tobacconist-7/11mix, took all of five minutes.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:28 diana_coman: it seems quite surprising to me there isn't more interest but tbf I haven't used local WU ever, would need to even look it up, lol.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:41 OriansJ: Mocky: floating point support is part of being turing complete. We can either bitch about how bad it is (Like the old MIPS engineers) or accept the reality and figure out a why that costs us the least.
mp_en_viaje: no particular datastructure is any part of turing completeness, what the heck is this!
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907060 << well... it WAS bootstrap... keks.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:46 Mocky: and in addition you suggested floating point as software addon. turing completeness can now be achieved after the fact!
mp_en_viaje: i had to look up this "Nexus Intruder program class attack" ; remarkably i got nothing : https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22Nexus+Intruder+program+class+attack.%22
mp_en_viaje: i reallly dislike noun strings, espcially as the count goes over 3.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907063 << you'll have to explain this sometime.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:48 OriansJ: Mocky: yes that was my point; floating point will either exist in hardware or software because of Turing completeness.
mp_en_viaje: likbez : any machine that can simulate itself is turing-complete. the word "machine" is meant most abstractly, something as bare-bones as maths people would call "a function" could conceivably qualify. an ~imagined~ tape with a theoretically defined reading head associated eminently qualifies. and so on.
mp_en_viaje: the fucking game of life is computationally universal for crying out loud.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907069 << no, but see, we discovered a significant disconnect here. we DO. NOT. SUPPORT. ANYTHING. fuck them all. there's no pseudo-"friendly" postelism contemplated, there's no incumbent desire or inclination to "provide" for a vague, imagined "audience" clamoring somewhere downstream.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 12:59 OriansJ: Mocky: Don't get stuck on the idea of Floating point, it is just an example of classes of instructions that are complex to implement in hardware that a proper illegal instruction trap will allow us to move between hardware and software with no one else having to care what we are doing. As we want people programming to standards not to systems.
mp_en_viaje: goodness is the only criteria. "users" really don't count for anything. let them learn.
mp_en_viaje: which is precisely what "program to standards, not to systems" even means!
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907079 << in retrospect it's not clear what specific vhs-dos we mean when we just say "dos" in such contexts, but i believe the "brain-operation-immune" part is central -- can delete modules w/o "reboot".
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 21:48 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907021 << 'dos' as typically discussed here is simply shorthand for 'os that fits in coupla kB and gets the fuck out of the way and speaks only when spoken to' , roughly
mp_en_viaje: actually has no clear notion of "reboot", i suppose is the true characteristic here, hence the original virii/tsr's. ~kernel modules, ipso facto.
mp_en_viaje: we liked specifically the analogic quality of it.
mp_en_viaje: that* "analogic".
mp_en_viaje: though i suspect this still doesn't cover it.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907081 << i opted to let that pass in silence, too much work to open the can from that seam. but... yeah, no fucking strings, not ever again.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 21:49 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907023 << whytheFUCK wouldja want the nullterm-string warcrime to exist on a brand-new arch ?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907101 << why ? consider the problem of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-04#1869285 ; what ELSE is supposed to be an os primitive ? maybe, code colorization too ? maybe the os should have a native concept of "what the data means to you" ?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:07 OriansJ: asciilifeform: no where did I say null terminated strings; it could be length prefixed strings but support for strings needs to exist in a human readable bootstrap.
a111: Logged on 2018-11-04 23:13 mircea_popescu: IF you can't configure your termina, either get a better one or understand you're at fault for your own pain.
mp_en_viaje: there's entirely no need of "utf/unicode/bs" ; the place where these go, as a mask atop bytes, is where "strings
mp_en_viaje: " belong. you wish a bitstream to appear a certain way on yoru terminal, step right up, ~adjust your terminal~.
mp_en_viaje: it makes about as much sense to have os strings as it does to have os bitmaps.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907109 << liters natively typecast into cubic decimeters!!!! BY DESIGN!
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:11 asciilifeform: and liters into metres
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907115 << list them sometimes ; the agreed upon explanation here is that it's purely coincidental, much in the vein of christianity and european civilisation or "modern democracy" and prosperity.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:13 OriansJ: There are very good reasons why typed memory systems appeared after high level languages did.
mp_en_viaje: specifically : just as ~any other idiocy~, carried by the high tide of industrialisation, would have just as falsely appeared just as successful as "modern democracy", and just as ~any other idiocy~, carried by the high tide of european stock, would have jus tas falsely appeared just as fundamental as xtianity, just so any attempt at computer design in the period of not-really-having-electronics'd have ended up braindamaged.
mp_en_viaje: there's a reason early airplanes "flew" rattan bodies on denim wings, and it ain't to do with science. it's just that aluminum machining comes once there's a reason for it, not before.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907141 << im not so sure the generalized problem is that interesting. he has a solid point, "are you kidding me, i can identify your ethernet stack with a fucking pickup needle".
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:26 asciilifeform: the puzzler concerns 'general purpose' sabotaged fpga, rather than case where you know what the victim intends to connect and what protocols etc
mp_en_viaje: this goes directly into HOW idiotic hoop-jumping complexity serves & reinforces empire. because it does, and looky how!
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907145 << this is a more doubtful claim. what patterns, tcp/ip ?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:30 OriansJ: asciilifeform: well some of these patterns are universally useful and will exist even in Sane Iron systems
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:35 OriansJ: Let us just assume the FPGA was not compromised and leverage it for the bootstrap work at this stage (I'll be going to pure LibreSilicon before I am finished but hey to each their own)
mp_en_viaje: (in fairness -- the why not is that by now bitter experience with all sorts of "libre" dorks has clearly shown they function as an imperial decoy and ~nothing else. i can't distinguish between "3d printing" sintered "guns", raspberry pi bullshit, and any other such item).
mp_en_viaje: it's enthusiwank.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907157 << so far all that's actually been decided is the rng source (no, no tpossible to have sane iron w/o rng).
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:37 OriansJ: So, perhaps the most important question what has been actually decided about Sane Iron and what still needs definition?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:40 asciilifeform: looking at the 'process steps' docs in the linked page, it seems to be a straight wikipedization of ordinary schoolbook description of ic fab process
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907171 << but a guide written by the blind. there's some very drastic limits to "good intentions", and ESPECIALLY to self-awarded "good intentions", you must understand. the best of intention do not permit a bunch of poor kids from rural idaho to write a half-useful (ie, useful in more than 50% of cases) munchen subway map.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:44 OriansJ: asciilifeform: It is a guide for groups of people to pool together resources and setup a 1 micrometer fab to generate trusted chips. Yes it is far from optimal but it is a step in the right direction.
mp_en_viaje: moreover, and overwhelmingly important, some duning-krugerands retarded enough to not understand that their cunt map they made (coming from the same place their "let's make a pact to get laid before highschool starts" "pact" came, ie, complete insanity and a ridiculously nonsensical worldview, wherein they're magically the only agents, and the world exists on the basis of their mental processes and in no other way, notwithstanding the obvious probl
mp_en_viaje: em with this theory -- namely that they're agreeing to get laid ~even now~ and apparently their agreement still dun do jack shit, so maybe something else is the controlling factor ?) carries less utility than the clean paper they started with can assign ~themselves~ "good intentions" until they're blue in the face, for all the difference it makes. they're still ~ill intended~ blotter paper bandits, exactly like weevils.
mp_en_viaje: for all you know weevils think they're eating your rice with the best of intentions. and termites, and cockroaches, and all other pests. because your shit tastes good, and they like good stuff, and so of course it's all with the good intentions ? no ?
mp_en_viaje: 30 yo dorks with a weird beard, living in cramped, shared, squalid accomodations and "preparing a phd" aren
mp_en_viaje: t to be confused for human beings.
mp_en_viaje: and so no, it is very much not a step, directions indifferent. it's a nonstep, very specifically what kanzure is famous for here -- nonsteps like these can readily take decades and deliver 0. exactly like masturbation (which the whole exercise precisely and transparently is, masturbation for the erectile dysfunctional).
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907179 << that's ok, the republic recognizes no patents.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:46 OriansJ: asciilifeform: honestly, the chemicals and the patents are still a mess in that field plus the never could produce a chip that could exceed 100khz
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:48 OriansJ: asciilifeform: well we can either wait for others to perform miracles or we can get off our asses and make them for the world to see.
mp_en_viaje: pointedly : is there anyone besides you tryna work on this M-whatever thinge ?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:53 OriansJ: No results on DDG
mp_en_viaje: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bolix+ivory << top hit, of course... the one, the only, the true etcetera. last year's vintage, too.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907201 << jesus chryst, stop with the we. and yes, you do, because http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701489
a111: Logged on 2019-04-06 23:57 OriansJ: asciilifeform: we don't need cycle-accurate; we just need good enough to be able to write the pieces that will run on it directly
a111: Logged on 2017-08-21 14:43 phf: i spent (mostly another whisperer and myself did) on getting vlm stable, and i'm unconvinced that some of the issues we encountered were purely "buggy vlm". there is, for example, a crash in floating point instruction that happens when you load document examiner on stock piratebay opengenera. i have no explanation for it still, because vlm code ~seems to do the right thing~. there are other similar instances
mp_en_viaje: shit's undebuggable without, what.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907209 << it's not effective for you, personally. this is deliberate, because we deliberately do not wish to support the "foss ethos", so to call this contemporaneous impudence where sophomore medical school students expect to walk into operating theatres and start cutting on bodies as they lay on operating tables.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:00 OriansJ: asciilifeform: that is not an effective mechanism of documentation reference
mp_en_viaje: you wish to meaningfully participate, there's the http://trilema.com/2013/youre-gonna-have-to-learn-that-variety-speak/ step in your way. so, to put it quite bluntly, it is the ~only~ ffective mechanism of documentation reference, ~specifically because~ it denies access to rando "i think i'm s-m-r-t
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:01 OriansJ: asciilifeform: which is fine if you expect to only work alone and have the work lost in the sands of time.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907211 << you're being simply ridiculous. the only one who's in no danger of that is him. the one currently suffering from it, is you. don't be the guy with pellagra going about telling the furst of schwarzburg an' the count palatine of blois / lord elector of bavaria about "how to avoid pellagra". for one thing, they can't get it, they eat meat.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:01 OriansJ: asciilifeform: which is fine if you expect to only work alone and have the work lost in the sands of time.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:04 OriansJ: asciilifeform: Having spent time reading the log; I am less than impressed
mp_en_viaje: is this the first time btw ?
mp_en_viaje: somehow it's the first time in my memory.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:04 asciilifeform: i cannot resist to ask OriansJ , what exactly then is he doing here ?
a111: Logged on 2019-03-26 20:07 mircea_popescu: bvt, so put the matter to him plainly, "look, the republic is considering this, either come over and make your case or what d oyou want to do" ?
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907247 << i confess the wikilinks irritated me also.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:22 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: quick on the trigger finger today aintcha
mp_en_viaje: !!up OriansJ
deedbot: OriansJ voiced for 30 minutes.
mp_en_viaje: apparently dood can no longer self voice huh.
mp_en_viaje had no idea this progressed so well.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907271 << i suspect he cribbed it from trilema, which has the ~same gracefully-degrading js-dropbox.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:34 OriansJ: the javascript requirement is a bit odd though for the patches page
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907276 << as a factual matter, it seems to work fine without javascript : http://browsershots.org/http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=v ; it does not however work fine on broken browsers, which admittedly is quite the overwhelming majority of all browsers however counted.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 00:36 OriansJ: asciilifeform: I've hit http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=v and no it doesn't display without javascript enabled
PeterL: !!invoice BingoBoingo 0.114 Pizarro WFF Auction 8Apr2019
mp_en_viaje: oh, and then there's phf saying the same thing himsefl.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907295 << lol, and then the kekscavalry lands.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 11:08 OriansJ: phf: Tor-browser paranoid mode for reference
PeterL: !!v D608701B84AFC7FBA9C13E1761C9DA34C547636850AE4670EDB7A55C4E9C19BE
deedbot: Invoiced BingoBoingo 0.114 << Pizarro WFF Auction 8Apr2019
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907304 << this is not a bad option lol, we do this exact thing alllll the damn time. how the hell else ?
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 12:01 OriansJ: now I am willing to build from source tools (after an audit) that will work with v; so that I can interact with the patches directly but as I have not finished an audit nor trust anyone who has previously audited the code; I am left with the bad option of setting up a burn box to view the patches.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907307 << the map his vpatch viewer spits out should work with that subset ; so should something like http://wot.deedbot.org/6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452.html ; if you don't see a circle of links under the fingerprint, i expect your "subset of svg" is actually not functional on some level. though as he says, the actual possibility of having such a custom svg is dubious altogeter.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 12:17 OriansJ: phf: short version SVG that only supports lines and text but not SVG Animation or any of the other fun extras.
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907308 << not to mention a) insulting and b) counterproductive. whenever you say something dumbly you steal from the smart, to give to the dumb. this is both shameful, ie ethically wrong, and evil, ie, morally wrong. if you've decided to steal, always steal from the dumb to give to the smart. they make much better friends.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 13:24 phf: OriansJ: so i've thought about it, expressing concepts in forms for general consumption is a bad coping mechanism from a life time of being the smartest person in the room (assuming that it's not a ruse or self-delusion and you _are_ actually capable of clear thinking). problem is that it makes you lazy and rots the brain, and then when you're in the room of equals or superiors you suddenly discover that you're not practiced at
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907311 << yes, everything in the republic bootstraps naturally and self-evidently, because naturally and self-evidently IT WAS DELIBERATELY BUILT TO.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 16:04 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907304 << i formerly thought that this was obvious from the docs , but you ~can~ operate on vpatches without a vtron ( they're edible by trad. unix 'patch' util, and you can verify the sigs with anyffin roughly gpg-like , also by hand )
mp_en_viaje: *drumroll*
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907332 << yeah huh, maybe this is starting to work!
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 21:48 BingoBoingo: Quite a lot of bidding this month
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907333 << kinda how it's supposed to go, really.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-07 21:57 PeterL: seems to be a function of how far from the price listed elsewhere that you start it
mp_en_viaje: o check me out! caught up on logs! whooo!
mp_en_viaje is getting kinda tired of this chair, will mosy along now, but fully intends to check back in either later today or more likely tomorrow.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907493 << pretty sure he still can ; rather, ran off
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 12:20 mp_en_viaje: apparently dood can no longer self voice huh.
asciilifeform: !!gettrust OriansJ
deedbot: L1: 1, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 09:18 mp_en_viaje: btw, how's the cold asciilifeform ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907362 << funnily enuff, asciilifeform not long ago did the ~quarterly walk of parts catalogues, 'can haz genuine antifuse eprom?' (spoiler : 'nope' just like since when started lookin' in 2013 )
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 09:33 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907031 << one actually wants to have an antifuse boot rom, yes.
asciilifeform: i.e. you can buy all the 'otp eprom' you want, but they're ALL ordinary flash with the write pin (promisetronically) nonworking
asciilifeform: last i dun into subj in depth, formed impression that usg may have exterminated (and swallowed the bones of) all extant makers of antifuse rom, in early '90s . on acct of the intrinsic radiation resistance of antifuse vs flash.
asciilifeform: *dug into
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907383 << i entirely agree ( tho last we had this thrd, mircea_popescu didn't... http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776201 )
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 09:57 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1907026 << i can't conceive what small endian ~even is for~. what is it for ? i'm against even supporting it altogether, you want to computer, use a computer that netowrk oders.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 16:52 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re the 'guillotine neck vs mandible', if it ain't obvious, i'll spell it out ftr : bigendian nums look 'ffaistic' when hexdumped, i.e. correct . littleendian -- you gotta mentally flip'em.
asciilifeform: bigendian is sadly ~extinct on extant market iron tho. to the point that i haven't even a working one in torture room to test on presently.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907377 << they're ~all~ like this nao ('want guarantee -- go pay for freight container') , found this when doing piz expedition
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 09:47 mp_en_viaje: but! c) i show up, explain i got 3 people but ~200kgs of luggage (i'm fucking diana ross over here) and their idea was to.... pay for ticket, after which show up at airport, ~with no carrier guarantee whatsoever~. "pay us so many thousands to put yourself in such a spot, we can ask for any moar moneyz we think of".
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907441 << i'ma come back to this some time we both have a whole hour, it deserves own thrd ( and possibly -- article )
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 11:34 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907141 << im not so sure the generalized problem is that interesting. he has a solid point, "are you kidding me, i can identify your ethernet stack with a fucking pickup needle".
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907456 << linked item is a hybrid of exactly this, and ye olde 'stone soup'
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 11:51 mp_en_viaje: moreover, and overwhelmingly important, some duning-krugerands retarded enough to not understand that their cunt map they made (coming from the same place their "let's make a pact to get laid before highschool starts" "pact" came, ie, complete insanity and a ridiculously nonsensical worldview, wherein they're magically the only agents, and the world exists on the basis of their mental processes and in no other way, notwithstanding the obvious probl
asciilifeform: and what's moar, i've seen ~same nonsense pop up again an' again. 'we'll describe how satellite is launched , for audience of 8 y.o., this will SURELY put us closer to actually launching one' etc
diana_coman: closer to feeling like launching one, most probably the whole point anyway.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: tlp had the piece re 'they get faux-brokerage acct to Feel Like a Trader'
PeterL: recently I saw an ad for some brokerage service, they actually included as one of the selling points "you can feel like a trader!"
asciilifeform: lol! 'parody horizon'(tm)
diana_coman: well, quite logical since muh feelings' so important, after all.
diana_coman: not to mention that being/doing something ~always costs something while feelin' like it costs ~nothing, so no surprise really.
mp_en_viaje: ha-HA!
asciilifeform: ohai mp_en_viaje !
mp_en_viaje: coffee tour!
diana_coman: onth I can't see anything wrong in adding "feel like x" to a pizarro add if that does anything
diana_coman: heh, this time in the civilised world where they actually have coffee houses?
mp_en_viaje: im like five-six hundred in, buying cappuccinos five bux at a time. and i'm not even spent yet!!
asciilifeform: oh apropos of mp_en_viaje's luggage : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-14#1627027 oblig
a111: Logged on 2017-03-14 17:41 asciilifeform: reminds me of a folk story from late '50s. shah of iran and his wife went to visit su. she, of course, takes entire household!111 literally, furniture and all, in classic eastern tradition;
mp_en_viaje: i packed a few whips and other irreplaceable leather etc torture/domestic implements. but no actual furniture.
mp_en_viaje: >5lbs of costume jewelry tho.
asciilifeform: hey that 200 is only 2x asciilifeform's 100 lol
asciilifeform: and i had to lug that 100 up the stairs in oddball BingoBoingostani hotel where 'want lift? here's some stairs to it'
mp_en_viaje: you know ? and you were by self!
mp_en_viaje: i just make the women lug it.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, hotel gurl 'offered to help'
mp_en_viaje: and you deck lined ?!
diana_coman: I thought that was exactly what hotel porters were for though, hm
asciilifeform: she must've weighed half of what 1 of the trunks weighed. so declined
asciilifeform: didn't want to break an otherwise perfectly working aboriginal gurl
asciilifeform: diana_coman: believe or not, they had no porter or anyffing resembling.
asciilifeform: nor a ramp even.
asciilifeform: otoh a healthy d00d oughta imho be able to carry 100kg+ a reasonably small distance
mp_en_viaje: the problem was not moving it back an' forth ; but the dorky airlines giving up on life.
asciilifeform: incidentally even 'copa air' -- the only, afaik, co that was even willing to offer 100kg-per-man ~for extra charge~ -- still did not offer guarantee that they'd actually ~take~ the cargo ( answrd 'show up with it and ~probably~ it will get loaded , i.e. roulette )
asciilifeform: that one only does the americas tho, i cannot currently comment re europistani carriers
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 14:56 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907383 << i entirely agree ( tho last we had this thrd, mircea_popescu didn't... http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-25#1776201 )
a111: Logged on 2018-01-25 16:42 asciilifeform: i dun actually disagree with mircea_popescu : i never liked bigendianism . but it did come from a particular cost analysis , ftr.
mp_en_viaje: seems more like we agreed on something or the other last time, and we agree on something or the other this time, except the things themselves may be bitflipped.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i suggest to look again at the endianisms , so to remember which 1 it was that you barfed on
asciilifeform: me, the moar i work with arithmetics, the moar plus i see to the 'big' (where 'bignums' are printed correctly when raw hexdumped )
mp_en_viaje: anyway, as far as im personally concerned between mar 2019 and jan 2018 there intervened a lot of eulora-related endianism sads. incl the celebrated http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/08/eucrypt-chapter-9-byte-order-and-bit-disorder-in-keccak/
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, me2, in so many words.
asciilifeform: tho at the risk of replaying the ancient thrd, if you prohibit byte-addressing , you lose the 'endianism' wank thereby
asciilifeform: ( e.g. ffa, is none-endian )
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, i think i barfed at "nUxi", which is not, properly speaking, any particular endianism but the necessary and equivalent result of mixing.
asciilifeform: there were actually iron makers demented enuff to actually bake that. iirc ibm.
asciilifeform: 'middle endian'
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 15:01 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907441 << i'ma come back to this some time we both have a whole hour, it deserves own thrd ( and possibly -- article )
mp_en_viaje: though we're on the 4th cup at this table... i guess if it runs long ima invoice you for nicole's coffeegreed
asciilifeform: i'ma see if it can be tamped into 20m, lol
mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907543 << the sad results of the "show and tell" pseduo-school culture. "it's more important to get kids talking than to get them to have something to say"
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 15:03 asciilifeform: and what's moar, i've seen ~same nonsense pop up again an' again. 'we'll describe how satellite is launched , for audience of 8 y.o., this will SURELY put us closer to actually launching one' etc
mp_en_viaje: this, incidentally, has a romanian name, from the 1800s, when the romanians invented it. "teoria formerlor fara fond"
asciilifeform: item was re 'what computing device offers least room in which to hide a mine when you buy it from enemy'. asciilifeform contends that the moar homogeneous the fabric, the moar difficult to interestingly hide a useful mine. i.e. if you wanted to sell the victim an sram that replaces e.g. mp_en_viaje's pubkey with gavin's whenever it is loaded therein, the resulting device will look quite diff even on optical microscope (not even speak
asciilifeform: ing of xray or neutronograph etc) vs 'honest'.
mp_en_viaje: this much is true. but the point can not be easily avoided that in fact the use you intend to put that fabric to is ~not~ homogenuous. at all.
asciilifeform: the 2nd contention of asciilifeform's , is that the moar room victim has to permute ~his~ intended contents, the moar painful the job of the one laying the mine.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: this is correct and is isomorphic to above.
mp_en_viaje: this may also be true, but the true constraint is the relative height of the previous objection. inasmuch as your ethernet stack looks like an ethernet stack, you're not hiding it.
mp_en_viaje: you know the joke about the guy who thought "the more places i have to hide this alarm clock in, the better chances to escape with it" ? "what if it rings ?"
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: the q is not whether a human reverser can find nic stack with his eyes, but whether you can stuff a robotic 'finder-diddler' of same into general-purpose sea of gates fabric , and still have item that passes inspection (incl. having the expected homogeneous propagation delays b/w the gates)
mp_en_viaje: the correct modelling of hiding an alarm clock (slash thorium bar slash live slavegirl slash angry ferret etc) is not a naive linear extension of captain koons' clever watch hiding techniques.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, the problem is not necessarily the problem you wanna focus on.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's fg test process for freshly-received boards, for instance, included an (unpublished, and won't be published any time soon) set of test circuits for the fpga , that characterized the propagation delays.
mp_en_viaje: right.
asciilifeform: observe that you can't do this for, say, cpu (even the simplest 1980s 8bit micros had all sortsa oddball unpredictability re context-dependent electrical characteristics)
mp_en_viaje: the problem remains though -- yes, perhaps in the formulation of "hide it i nfabric", the deeply imperial nature of X Y Z may be irrelevant. nevertheless,
mp_en_viaje: it is fucking there.
mp_en_viaje: in short, we're not disagreeing about the same thing.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: it is entirely possible to sabotage fpga in the e.g. 'philips light bulb' sense, where it burns out after 5000 hrs. or shorts + to - erry month. or similar. these are 'physical' sabotages, and imho uninteresting because indistinguishable from simply shoddy part. the interesting hypothetical mine is a ~logical~ mine.
asciilifeform: i.e. where the part is for all purposes a working one, except in specific condition known to enemy apriori
mp_en_viaje: i'll give you an example if you promise to not focus on the example.
asciilifeform: keep in mind plox that the 'mine' cannot be bigger than the intended 'mine field' tho.
mp_en_viaje: so : suppose a) tcp/ip is intrinsically, by its very [deliberate, and previously uknown-ly so] design vulnerable to "blowhammer", which is a class of yet undescribed attacks ; suppose your fpga includes an electrically-isolated leverage for a.
mp_en_viaje: this happened, factually, in the su embassy thing with the carved wooden amplifier thingee.
mp_en_viaje: in short -- imperial dishomogenity is not a free option.
mp_en_viaje: all structure always comes home to roost.
asciilifeform: gotta flesh this one out tho, cuz as written it posits the conclusion. how does the raw device know that it is being put to use for tcpip ? rather than e.g. to control aquarium temp.
mp_en_viaje: it doesn't. if it is, it is, and if it isn't, it doesn't do anything.
mp_en_viaje: how did the carveout amplify discussions not occuring in that room ? it did not.
asciilifeform: this is the definition of the desired mine. but does not describe how one could actually fit such 'recognizer' inside without it physically dwarfing the rest of the item.
mp_en_viaje: now imagine a fpga, surrounded by 725 islands, leveraging each one thing, this is net-a that is tcp-ip-b, that'
mp_en_viaje: s dram and so on.
mp_en_viaje: i am not equipped to evaluate the geometry of a leverage of tower of shit.
asciilifeform: i say that this is roughly equivalent to 'enemy will sell you a pen that writes gavin's pubkey if you sit down and try to write mp_en_viaje's '
mp_en_viaje: neither are you. the only approach is to not use towers of shit. trying to calculate the resonance frequencies of arbitrary shitpiles is going to get you in the same line as karman went
mp_en_viaje: we don't agree there.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: i say that vlsi circuit whose functionality cannot be established optically, is intrinsically 'tower of shit' just like e.g. linux kernel.
mp_en_viaje: possibly.
mp_en_viaje: but the point here was, that as long as what you're implemeting is, say, tcp, or dram, what you will get is not in fact a safely auditable object.
mp_en_viaje: this is really a trivial point.
asciilifeform: the ~substrate~ gotta be a physically auditable object tho.
asciilifeform: then and only then it is meaningful to try an' audit the logic payload as a separate entity.
mp_en_viaje: if you expect to detect electically isolated islands, as what you mean by "optically", then yes.
asciilifeform: sorta why asciilifeform separated fg into 3 individually-auditable components
asciilifeform: i.e. 2 analogue and 1 deterministic
asciilifeform: ( observe that a hardline skeptic who cannot be satisfied with the 'rngicity' of the analogue boards, can replace'em with hand buttons, or roulette wheels, if he is willing to live with smaller bit rate )
asciilifeform: conversely, one who is satisfied with the analogue boards, but not the vonneumanizer, can use the former and discard the latter, replacing with own
mp_en_viaje: to restate the point : there's no substantial difference between a) using dns/ntp ; b) running windows and c) writing your own code to run on your own hardware and interface with say dram.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform does not and at no point did posit a 'magical amulet' iron that somehow cures the effects of throwing in braindamaged softs
asciilifeform: 'pray tell, mr babbage!'
mp_en_viaje: there's a lot of formal difference, of course. exaclty like there's a lot of formal difference between fucking a crack whore in the ass and fucking a strep throat slavegirl in the mouth.
mp_en_viaje: but, substantially, you're gonna get infected.
asciilifeform: fughetting for a moment fpga : consider ordinary transistor, or even diode. it is not physically possible to bake a 'secretly smart' transistor that does s/mp-pubkey/gavin-pubkey in hopes of being put in somebody's serial port 1 day, and for it to have same analogue characteristics as genuine diode (not even speaking of what it'd look like under microscope)
mp_en_viaje: this much is true.
asciilifeform: cuz, elementarily, it would have to contain coupla 10k actual transistors inside, and impose their propagation delay on the output.
mp_en_viaje: nevertheless, if you implement some dumb protocol, ~even if you implement it correctly~, and ~even if you use it on non-thompson hardware~, nevertheless you have a hole : the dumb protocol, potentially doing who knows what on the side.
mp_en_viaje: exactly like if you agree to make all diodes work on 10kv, you will not be able to prevent enemy from cooking his breakfast on your computatron
asciilifeform: if yer using idjit softs, enemy has no need to build custom factory for to slip you a subtly mined part
asciilifeform: he can work with douchebags for pennies
mp_en_viaje: which is +ev for him and -ev fr you.
mp_en_viaje: asciilifeform, not a matter of softs. the dram protocol's as hardware as it gets.
asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: dram ( at least such as sold as 'ddr3' and above ) is actually a scam, i.e. 'works unless the access pattern revisits $row 'too often' ) , this is moar of a shoddy konsoomer rubbish masquerading as deterministic component than an 'attack'
mp_en_viaje: it's a matter of designs, protocols, algorithms. being at a delta from correctness is a homomorphism of having a personality, and in the exact http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-03#1906848 sense
a111: Logged on 2019-04-03 21:31 mp_en_viaje: the driver of the error is the desire of having a ~unique~ personality. it is not deemed sufficient, by contemporary man, to merely have the same personality as the entire tableau of orthodox saints. there's too many of those, see. gotta be unique. as it can't be unique and meaningful at te same time (think, can it ?)... all that's left is the getting-drunk-on-tapwater "secret parameters".
asciilifeform: sorta like where asciilifeform one time found that an ancient box he was using as www toilet, would overheat an' shutdown when visiting particular sites; found in the end that they contained 'js miners' and the thermal grease had dried decade ago
asciilifeform: i would not classify this as 'clever attack'
mp_en_viaje: well, cleverness notwithstanding.
mp_en_viaje: this is a large part of what informs the "no magic numbers" stance, for isntance.
mp_en_viaje: but anyways -- we shall continue laters!
asciilifeform: incidentally, ddr 'hammer' and similar 'induce random bit flips' are only interesting on idjit pc iron, which lacks ecc and bounds checking . on sane iron, flippin' bits blindly gets you a halted machine and a handy printout telling the operator which stick to replace.
asciilifeform: 1st time i booted up that 'ivory' bolix, it actually listed a coupla 'and here ecc triggered, corrected x to y' when revving up
asciilifeform: thing has 2bit ecc on errything that hangs off the bus, even the little boot rom.
asciilifeform: ( and currently i suspect that there's 'majority' logic in the PALs, also , tho as of yet cannot say where )
asciilifeform: ~that~ is how sane folx build irons. and not idjit intel's 'i'ma happily execute this random pile o'bits as a cpu instruction anytime' nonsense.
BingoBoingo: !!cancel-invoice whaack 1
BingoBoingo: !!v 942E64D22ADEFCF066CFE7790A5CEB982B05B2B08FC6F98399D727ED1D4AF5B0
deedbot: BingoBoingo canceled whaack invoice 1
BingoBoingo: !!invoice whaack 0.0216 Shared Hosting annual
BingoBoingo: !!v D1CFA12EC4B736722169248E48A0A040E4EF2F8D15505642CBED2DB56BC61427
deedbot: Invoiced whaack 0.0216 << Shared Hosting annual
BingoBoingo: !!pay-invoice PeterL 2
BingoBoingo: !!v BA174783D816FBB77A24ABCD7AB78DC699CD561E34459B1A77994530278A9541
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid PeterL invoice 2
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-08#1907489 << Was more motivated by a desire to generally not keep my loans of voice open forever when the princess appears to be slotting for other castles
a111: Logged on 2019-04-08 12:19 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-07#1907247 << i confess the wikilinks irritated me also.
BingoBoingo: When I did my last ratings cleanup there was a lot of "Who dat?
feedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/08b-feedbot-ii.html << The Tar Pit -- Feedbot [ii]: the rss announcer
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/04/us-government-centcom-added-to-list-of-terrorist-organizations-by-major-regional-power/ << Qntra -- US Government, CENTCOM Added To List Of Terrorist Organizations By Major Regional Power
OriansJ: asciilifeform: No, I just haven't seen anything worth discussing, as I am only here to discuss the bootstrapping of Sane Iron and I will be here until I keep my word to bvt and have my discussion with mircea_popescu; to see if there is potential for mutually beneficial cooperation in regards to Sane Iron and Need to run something now.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: if you answr mp's comments in today's log, tomorrow he can answer back, etc. this is typically how it worx here, rather than waiting always for folx all over planet to be awake simultaneously
asciilifeform: OriansJ: observe how http://btcbase.org/log/ works, pasted log refs are cross referenced automatically
asciilifeform: it saves many kilometres of length, nobody ever has to say anything twice.
asciilifeform: can also easily see what has been said on a subj, and by whom, e.g.,
asciilifeform: !#s from:asciilifeform karatsuba
a111: 93 results for "from:asciilifeform karatsuba", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aasciilifeform%20karatsuba
asciilifeform: OriansJ: plz know that if you're waiting for mp to wake up and repeat what he has prev. said, you will be quite disappointed. nobody repeats; and failure to address prev comments in the log, is the height of ill manners: can be forgiven a noob once or twice, but one gets with the program and starts using the log , or loses voice fast.
asciilifeform: OriansJ: if you read today's log and genuinely found 0 to say, i cannot fathom what sorta 'mutually beneficial cooperation' you had in mind .
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