Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2019-02-03 | 2019-02-05 →
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo anthropologist ; disservice.
BingoBoingo: ty, fxd
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 21:04 mircea_popescu: spyked nice article! it might even end up the current linkpoint for the various lost souls, "here, we know the future" item.
spyked: re , : a) do you mean the alt "title=..." text? I'll add it to the list of things to look into; b) pingback delivery is for now a manual process. will also have to add automation to thetarpit feature list
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 21:04 mircea_popescu: but i must protest re your blogotron that a) whay do footnote anchors not load the footnote in a hoover overlay! and b) whay does it send no pingbacks ? (or does it, did trilema eat them ?)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 22:33 diana_coman: spyked, fwiw I did not get the pingback from your blog either
spyked: more generally: although I've been tempted to switch to mp-wp, I'm still hoping to grow the current thetarpit code base into a minimal cl-based mp-wp-like blogotron. I'ma also put a genesis on the todo list.
spyked: <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 21:04 mircea_popescu: an' also, what writings predating no longer online you mean ?
asciilifeform back inbiz
asciilifeform: << possibly oughta include the tidbit re arithmetical part of ffa being 100% built (can gen rsa primez nao, can do so easily after ch17, where looping is introduced)
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 03:34 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anything we want ot include in this month's s.nsa report ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: also can include the lul, if there's space.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-30 16:46 asciilifeform: diana_coman: '0.61 seconds per iteration of M-R' is also lulzy , in context of
asciilifeform: << 1st i hear of the name, seems to be at least coupla diff people. tho dug up a , which reads almost trilema-like...
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 12:56 spyked: <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via
asciilifeform: << moar from same fossilized www. whether in fact ancient mircea_popescu engl. practice or not, it's pretty good imho.
asciilifeform: ( ftr nuffin asciilifeform wrote in that period is imho worth the electrons. the only own item i even bothered pickling & preserving from that time, is )
asciilifeform took 1 single 'day off' and nao buried in tall pile of various chores. will slowly eat log buffer later today.
spyked: asciilifeform, also related to "zeno"
asciilifeform: spyked: i have that b00k, and liked
mircea_popescu: spyked that's what i mean. it\s very convenient when reading short footnotes
asciilifeform: 'To sane humans, such a character is bewildering, but let's not forget an important piece of the puzzle. Jim Blow isn't there for sane humans. He's there for a very specific category of defective human minds. They call themselves "hackers" or something like that, and the rest of the world calls them nerds. ' << a++ imho
mircea_popescu: incidentally, either spyked or lobbes what do you need to make a complete copy ? it IS going away, for one thing the initiator guy died and for the other thing, with their world-famous there's no way they'll stay online all that long.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-15 23:50 mircea_popescu: which incidentally - has been read TODAY by more people than read ALL of marcel proust's works since the making of
mircea_popescu: should prolly also salvage but that's going to be more work than a straight download & strip headers job.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apparently gutenberg is rsync'able ( ) , tho i haven't tried
mircea_popescu: aha. not much work.
mircea_popescu: totally must-be-done tho, lest the BingoBoingo 's of the future end up missing out on their soulfood.
asciilifeform: would suck to have it end up like 'dejanews' et al.
mircea_popescu: there's no doubt in my mind it will.
mircea_popescu: never take pantsuit useful sites for granted ; they're always useful momentarily and coincidentally, because pantsuit is always more pantsuit than anything else, and the only thing pantsuit is is stupid, thus therefore useless and annoying.
asciilifeform: is asciilifeform's routine 'gutenberg', been a while since i looked at the actual one
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can't be helped, you write in english.
asciilifeform: yea won't dispute that oughta back up the shakespear etc
mircea_popescu: shakespeare isn't even the major problem ; the major problem are the english greats pantsuit ~deliberately~ ain't talking about, because very much sorta reasons
asciilifeform: verily.
mircea_popescu: there's ALWAYS a denied middle in everything pantsuit does. shakespeare, it perceives it has no choice but to talk about, because a) "too big to fail" and b) whatever, "we'll '''antibody it away anyway".
mircea_popescu: but lardner, who ever talked of the most important american writer in the us ? and WHY NOT ?
asciilifeform: yarvin's original claim to fame (of a kind) was a short and abortive attempt at this, he dug up a buncha confederate/slavery/etc texts and mirrored/commented
mircea_popescu: "we'd much rather not all be jack keefe, and you know what ? if we never ever mention it it's just as good as if we actually weren't. also, don't say king coon, nigger or cripple."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform problem being, those are shockingly fucking stupid.
mircea_popescu: but yes, if one was aiming to alt-pantsuit jirinovski status, that's the right play.
asciilifeform: good % was ( i admit, did not eat the whole collection, was snoar )
mircea_popescu: << manual how ? i have a script somewhere doing it for trilema, want me to dig it out ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 12:52 spyked: re , : a) do you mean the alt "title=..." text? I'll add it to the list of things to look into; b) pingback delivery is for now a manual process. will also have to add automation to thetarpit feature list
mircea_popescu: << see how comms trip you up ? had you ~said~ this much i'd have said very different things, because i entirely don't see the problem with a cl blogotron.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 12:54 spyked: more generally: although I've been tempted to switch to mp-wp, I'm still hoping to grow the current thetarpit code base into a minimal cl-based mp-wp-like blogotron. I'ma also put a genesis on the todo list.
asciilifeform has at various times attempted cl blogotron, but broke teeth on acct of insufficient wwwfu. if spyked decides to genesis his, would seriously consider converting
asciilifeform: mp-wp seems to work great , but asciilifeform hobbles when tryin' to modify it, php feels inescapably like cobol when i work with it
mircea_popescu: you will be nonplussed to hear that my only mental model for php is this "lisp" thing they had for "especially bright kids to learn how to computer" bla bla back when i was a teen.
mircea_popescu: i dunno why specifically it was called lisp, but it was stupid and verbose and i fucking hated it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there's 3 generations of maffs students to whom 'lisp' means precisely this
mircea_popescu: the annoying part is, i hated it so much i don't even have any distinct memory sufficient to identify wtf it even was.
asciilifeform: most victims of this type of 'education' carry only 1 or 2 nervous ticks, e.g. paren-phobia , into adulthood
mircea_popescu: it didn't even have paranthesises!
mircea_popescu: besides, derive was half-parens by weight, or more, and i liked derive fine.
asciilifeform: neither did mccarthy's orig lisp btw
asciilifeform ~still uses~ 'derive' on occasion.
mircea_popescu: i dunno what it was, but the only fucking time i threatened a wanna-be teacher with shooting in my life. dork was derealized enough to think i was kidding.
asciilifeform also has a ~decade-long on&off proj to reverse the thing properly. but not much movement on that front since tuning into tmsr.
asciilifeform: 'derive' actually contains an ultra-optimised, hand-asmed msdos lisp.
mircea_popescu: you know asciilifeform ... just cutting out the asm lisp compiler and putting it on loper may be a huge boon.
asciilifeform: hmm do i not have it mirrored ?
asciilifeform: gotta fix this, brb
mircea_popescu: im sure eg spyked would love ot give it a gander -- maybe he thereby learns asm and becomes as smart as ave1 for one, and maybe it helps his adalisp for the other.
asciilifeform: , << the latter is 'mulisp-87', there is also a '-90' that i was never able to track down.
mircea_popescu: i thought it was 86.
asciilifeform: have that 1 somewhere also, but will have to be pulled from optical disk if someone wants it specifically
mircea_popescu: so there's actually 3 ? ha.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sadly 'mu' aint all that helpful for writing a hand-carved lisp -- it's in 16bit asm and has the segmentation bullshit intimately baked into it
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at least 4, there was a '-83' also
asciilifeform: ( this one also existed for cp/m and z80 )
mircea_popescu: was the 90s thing that mulisp-xt or w/e, on the palm ?
asciilifeform: i dunno re palm, but there was (and remains sold!) a 68k thing that runs on the ti calculator
a111: Logged on 2015-09-13 08:26 BingoBoingo: Oh, TI-92 arrived yesterday. Much larger than I imagined
mircea_popescu: hp made this tiny, "can't decide if laptop or pocket calculartor" item\
mircea_popescu: and the derive people announced it has a lisp also.
asciilifeform: hp-200lx
asciilifeform: i have 1
asciilifeform: it's an ordinary dos box, with the dos in rom
asciilifeform: runs 'derive' just fine if you write it to the sram
asciilifeform: 95lx was the 1st model of same
mircea_popescu: so is this the mulisp 90 then ?
asciilifeform: i haven't yet encountered a version with 'derive' in the rom out of the box, but entirely possib that they sold one
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the ver of derive.exe that i have, has the runtime from -87 baked in
asciilifeform: i vaguely recall seeing one somewhere with a '-90', but possibly memory fails me or i dreamed it.
asciilifeform: (aficionados - plox to write in if find this)
mircea_popescu: "DERMATOL está programado en muLISP-90 Version 7.00 (03/06/91) para IBM . PC MS-DOS de Soft Warehouse, Inc. Las funciones están definidas en base a la estructura y algoritmo de la red neuronal ." << no, item evidently DID exist.
asciilifeform: quite interesting item, btw, e.g.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-24 01:51 asciilifeform: i'll point out that mulisp (47kB) included bignum (again, in asm)
asciilifeform: i'ma de-pdfize the 1 and only piece of archaeology known to have been written on subj , , brb
a111: Logged on 2015-09-07 21:39 ascii_field: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel << some actual implementation details re: 'derive' & 'mulisp'
asciilifeform: (orig link , unsurprisingly, dead )
mircea_popescu: you know ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 12:56 spyked: <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via
asciilifeform: << for the l0gz, and for all 'derive' aficionados.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re report, ima put in the amateurships yea
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apparently i looked for '90' prior, , never found.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 17:57 asciilifeform: unrelatedly, if phf or anybody else has a copy of mulisp-90, plz to post.
mircea_popescu: << and besides, has book references.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:12 asciilifeform: << 1st i hear of the name, seems to be at least coupla diff people. tho dug up a , which reads almost trilema-like...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you think $item is at level of 'amateurship', dun put in
mircea_popescu: no no not what i meant
mircea_popescu: the amateurship ~lulz~, ie, look what we discovered and how usgtards ended up renamed.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ftr i quite like the ancient pre-trilema, if you still have whole thing somewhere would be pretty great to read it off proper www, rather than usg's archive
hanbot: spyked: (snip) <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via << oh sweet, i'ma happily wade knee-deep in these again awhile.
mircea_popescu: lmao. back when hanbot was chitlins and things ?
hanbot: practically miniature
asciilifeform: back when asciilifeform was spending his days putting robot arm through glass doors etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it grew to at some point include a forum also, and i put a buncha cr pics from first trip there, which was teh ~only reason i considered over the years digging up archives, but was too lazy.
asciilifeform: i dun imagine the colibri & ocelots changed much since then
mircea_popescu: imagine you, they have!
mircea_popescu: there's this place we visited then, that can not be found now anymore.
mircea_popescu: though perhaps there's a lead.
asciilifeform: a in ~that~ way , heh
mircea_popescu: though in fairness, current crop entirely unsurpassed. much better camera, much better operator, mo' money...
mircea_popescu: kinda goes for the whole thing, tbh.
asciilifeform: perhaps swallowed by later material, but imho still pretty great read.
asciilifeform: i like the formatting also.
asciilifeform: very al-schwartz-ian formatting.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-04 13:57 mircea_popescu: exactly the same substance as the "artwork" basis of
asciilifeform: to round off stoutemyer item , << ocr txt from same.
asciilifeform: 'Implementing muLisp for the Intel 8086 was more challenging because the 1-megabyte address space was segmented into 64-kilobyte segments. The MS-DOS operating system reserved 360 kilobytes of that address space for its purposes, leaving 640 kilobytes for implementing and using muLisp. Awkward segmented architecture is becoming less common as memory costs decline. However, techniques for overcoming the limitations of short pointers a
asciilifeform: re still relevant for implementing linked programs and data compactly....'
trinque: << entirely sensible to rerun, sounds good.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 17:24 diana_coman: trinque, it's possibly best to run your latest script and then hand over everything you need, fresh and clear? not a big issue otherwise to rummage and pack that dir but I don't even recall if I did not touch it further after that point when I sent the genesis patch so I'd rather not introduce artefacts
hanbot: << there's an hp clunker willing to guineapig, but it's an i686, will that do?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 17:20 mircea_popescu: hanbot pick a laptop, bake the man's cuntoo. (principal issue, that gentoo->cuntoo "bridge", see if his sig matches).
mircea_popescu: can't see why not.
hanbot: kk. scheduled for tomorrow evening.
feedbot: << Qntra -- Pantsuit Government In Virginia Getting Boiled By National Pantsuits Over Having Once Been Young
asciilifeform was aboutta say 'hah, i threw out my last i686' but turns out nope, here's 1 runnin' still
asciilifeform: re ancient-mircea_popescu thrd : << also pretty interesting.
feedbot: << Bimbo.Club -- In memoriam Giuseppe
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not like the femstate's bankruptcy were discovered last tuesday.
mircea_popescu: however no longer in business, apparently.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not noose, but i simply like the flavour. just read 'guide to psychopathic rape', for instance, a+++
mircea_popescu: i guess ima put this in the report, "lost cto to binge reading ancient html site"
asciilifeform: i managed to fit it into timeslot of a meat chore, ftr!111
mircea_popescu: win-win as they say.
asciilifeform: yea tending heathens with headset, meanwhile primordial trilema..
mircea_popescu: must actually be a pretty grand experience.
asciilifeform: it is, highly a++ recc'd to anybody who still finds himself tending heathens
asciilifeform: in other lulz, swampistan went from -16 to +16 c in <day .
mircea_popescu: global warming.
asciilifeform: global worming.
mircea_popescu: btw, how's global warming been faring with the mini freeze they got last week ?
asciilifeform: iirc it got renamed to 'climate instability', nao airtight
mircea_popescu: because ultimately... leads to instability.
mircea_popescu: if everything were painted-on fixed, even women could be engineers. and immigrants.
asciilifeform: they oughta try mars, i hear pretty stable.
mircea_popescu: i must say, it's pretty weird to read 13year old stuff and not find something to object to.
asciilifeform also liked , with the heat engine.
asciilifeform: 'They're sucking the blood out of the fiction, at 3$ an hour, and there wasn't enough fiction to go around to begin with. And since you are paying today for tomorrow's fiction, darn straight you want your rightful slice of it. '
mircea_popescu: not even that bad, huh.
mircea_popescu: "You will lose the right to bear arms, not because they hate you, but because you aren't worth it, and you will lose the right to speak freely, not because they're affraid of it, but because you wouldn't know what to do with it if you had it. "
mircea_popescu: and all that.
asciilifeform: !#s debeaking
asciilifeform: ^ see also.
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu had these ultra-compact pieces that i suspect would penetrate the biofilm of all sortsa thick heathens today, if they were still on the main pg
mircea_popescu: feel free to quote it at them, why not.
asciilifeform: sad thing is that most of'em never got snapshotted.
asciilifeform: i found a handful of random.
mircea_popescu: how do you figure ?
asciilifeform: most of the links lead to null
mircea_popescu: and then if i were to leak eg ie, historical forum bits of travels ~as thery happened~ alf's gonna also want that and so on.
asciilifeform: i'ma deliberately not eat moar until i catch up with chores this wk, but otherwise yes
mircea_popescu: and then when he gets to romanian he's gonna want fain backups, and conceivably, wtf was and also, that one time when i sat down to read my collection of pif, what was in those large year-bound things, and could i perhaps dig up the "casino" roulette thing i made by hand to get all the other kids's turbo chewing gum "surprise" dollars, dms an' turk lyrasi
mircea_popescu: and so on. wtf, i can't dedicate my life to documenting my past life because then who's gonna produce the future.
asciilifeform: i'ma eat these if/when mircea_popescu bothers to dig'em up.
mircea_popescu: well, let's put it this way : no later than at the chestnut tree cafe i shall.
hanbot: inb4 this becomes the "whisperers" thread all over again
asciilifeform: i dun presume that errybody oughta burn cycles to post erry possible oldies. but mircea_popescu's i simply happen to like.
mircea_popescu: hahaha there's some of that isn't there.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes but what if there's some secret sauce in there!
asciilifeform: presumably not so seekrit that it being perma-hosted by usg loc blows it
asciilifeform: but whichever, post, or not, as feel like, how else.
asciilifeform bbl,meat
spyked: <-- yes pl0x, it would be much help. my biggest issue atm is having to do manual greps after <link rel="pingback" href="..." />, haven't been able yet to get something reliable that doesn't require parsing html
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:48 mircea_popescu: << manual how ? i have a script somewhere doing it for trilema, want me to dig it out ?
spyked: <-- post updated with some more context re. lisp blogotron the scope might still prolly not be 100% clear, it seems to require a separate post
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:49 mircea_popescu: << see how comms trip you up ? had you ~said~ this much i'd have said very different things, because i entirely don't see the problem with a cl blogotron.
spyked: <-- neato! I'll give this a reread myself
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 17:11 mircea_popescu:*/zenofeller << /me went an' searched
spyked: <-- funfact: /me reads plenty of asm on his saecular assignments, mostly to maintain & debug shit software stacks that crash in weird ways. haven't written any asm in a while tho, and dos asm especially has been a challenge last time I looked at it
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:59 mircea_popescu: im sure eg spyked would love ot give it a gander -- maybe he thereby learns asm and becomes as smart as ave1 for one, and maybe it helps his adalisp for the other.
spyked bbl, sleep
mircea_popescu: "most people, when faced with a problem, will not investigate the cause of the problem, but will instead want to solve it because the problem is actually in the way of something more important than figuring out why something suddenly got in their way out of nowhere. if you are a programmer, you may reach for perl at this point, and perl can remove your problem. happy, you go on, but find another problem blocking your way, r
mircea_popescu: equiring more perl -- the perl programmer who veers off the road into the forest will get out of his car and cut down each and every tree that blocks his progress, then drive a few meters and repeat the whole process. whether he gets where he wanted to go or not is immaterial -- a perl programmer will happily keep moving forward and look busy. getting a perl programmer back on the road is a managerial responsibility, and it
mircea_popescu: can be very hard: the perl programmer is very good at solving his own problems and assure you that he's on the right track -- he looks like any other programmer who is stuck, and this happens to all of us, but the perl programmer is very different in one crucial capacity: the tool is causing the problems, and unlike other programmers who discover the cause of the problem sooner or later and try something else, perl is reward
mircea_popescu: ing the programmer with a very strong sense of control and accomplishment that a perl programmer does _not_ try something else."
mircea_popescu: this is remarkably fucking true about, you've guessed it, ~social media~.
mircea_popescu: much unlike naggum's mythical perl, doods sit around doing nothing all day with their reward circuitry so blownout, they literally fail to understand that no, "your message was too long" is an inacceptable reaction to the situation where "my phone is uselessly broken"
mircea_popescu: "a person's behavior is shaped by the rewards and the punishment he has received while not thinking about his own actions. few people habitually engage in the introspection necessary to break out of this "social programming" or decide to ignore the signals that other people send them, so this is a powerful mechanism for programming the unthinking masses. rewarding idiotic behavior and punishing smart behavior effectively bra
mircea_popescu: inwashes people, destroying their value systems and their trust in their own understanding and appreciation of the world they live in, but if you're very good at it, you can create a new world for them in which all of this makes sense.
asciilifeform: << today 'mythical', but in '98 or when it was he wrote , was in fact troo specifically starring perl. (today other crapola, and moar fragmented so not immediately pointable to as 'hey, perl' )
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 22:13 mircea_popescu: much unlike naggum's mythical perl, doods sit around doing nothing all day with their reward circuitry so blownout, they literally fail to understand that no, "your message was too long" is an inacceptable reaction to the situation where "my phone is uselessly broken"
asciilifeform at one pt actually ~was~ 1 of the people naggum wrote about, who 'reached for perl like goebbels for pistol when heard word 'culture'' . then one day realized what it was doing to his brain and ~quit~ , like BingoBoingo quit drink, and never touched since
asciilifeform: i dunno whether organism ever fully recovers from perl. but been 'dry' for decade nao...
mircea_popescu: is perl here distinct from bash ?
asciilifeform: only in same way as whiskey distinct from beer
asciilifeform: 'get to rock bottom' faster.
asciilifeform: arguably there was 'perlism' prior to perl, just as there was surely alcoholism prior to cheap gin.
asciilifeform: but quite diff scale.
mircea_popescu: except i don't drink beer, but drink spirits. not whiskey, nor any other stoolbrandy, but nevertheless.
asciilifeform: rright but you dun do it as central focus of all life.
a111: Logged on 2019-01-29 17:34 asciilifeform: comments ( grep -P '^\s*--' ) turn out to be 1835 ln in libffa and 390 in ffacalc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i also drink spirits, note.
asciilifeform: occasionally.
asciilifeform: and bash.
mircea_popescu: this "structured data" argument is good enough in the general, but consider what it'd have cost you to actually have all that pre-structured, rather than bash-prototype
asciilifeform: i even own a vise-grip.
asciilifeform: 'the wrong tool for erry job'(tm)(r)
mircea_popescu: "i can't do any ffa work because i'm working on a manner in which to do it that wouldn't produce the idle inquiry of loc 6 months in"
asciilifeform: but erry so often, you gotta.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's the perfect tool for ONE job, as my recent header illustrates.
mircea_popescu: it will pinch girly skin most painfully.
asciilifeform: also unlike e.g. rms, asciilifeform even washes, even tho washing dun even directly bake any ffa...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in asciilifeform's planet vise-grip is used for exactly 1 thing ( when working on ancient auto engine, to clamp the old dead hood lift piston in place... )
asciilifeform: i suspect errybody else also has 'that 1 use..'
mircea_popescu: no wonder it sunk.
mircea_popescu: im telling you, it's for augmented pinching
asciilifeform: i thought that's what haemostat is for!111
asciilifeform: ( dun errybody own bag of classic surgical toolz ?? )
mircea_popescu: no way, you're liable to tear skin with that thing.
mircea_popescu: vise grip, nice square cm flat surfaces.
asciilifeform: you dun have those rubber-coated haemostats ?
asciilifeform: ( they come in 9000 variant )
asciilifeform: hm where was that mircea_popescu piece re the magick furniture..
asciilifeform: it was 'put to yourself the question' but in ro iirc
asciilifeform: about ideal objects
a111: Logged on 2015-09-02 22:09 mircea_popescu: there is clearly a problem here. ideal objects (such as software) are not comensurate with physical objects. this attempt to "engineer programs like screws" was a reasonable first hack at the novel an dunexpected problem,
asciilifeform: grr can't find in o(1). but the unifying thread is, when tools of the 'soft' variety appears, all sortsa folx, not even necessarily stupid, became afflicted with the erroneous notion that they have '0 cost' because coad dun have mass and can be cribbed gratis
asciilifeform: very rarely anyone goes 'perl' with actual physical bulldozer as in naggum's gedanken exp because actual bulldozer costs actual dough, and eats fuel which ditto, and produces immediately palpable mess
asciilifeform: but with imaginary bulldozer, many succumbed to 'hey what could it cost'
a111: Logged on 2016-06-10 21:34 asciilifeform: imagine if programmers actually had to answer for their pollutants.
a111: Logged on 2014-10-10 00:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 10k line/250kb limit. if you overrun it you get shot << chuck moore (of 'forth' fame) seems kinda in favour of this. as am i. a kind of 'environmentalism' i've been advocating for many years (intellectual pollution doesn't blacken mere lungs. it makes everybody - stupider. measurably.)
diana_coman: trinque, I'll add it to the list; what should I pack and send exactly, once it's done?
diana_coman will check back on this tomorrow
feedbot: << Bimbo.Club -- A few things to remember.
asciilifeform: apropos of nuffin at all, asciilifeform observes that on the street where he lives , + weather inescapably means the background sounds of the day are ~hourly 'ding' of dropped wrenches
asciilifeform: ( ~99% south amer folx here )
asciilifeform: ( on ~actually warm~ day -- wrench ding + samba )
asciilifeform: !!up Would_you_mind_v
deedbot: Would_you_mind_v voiced for 30 minutes.
verisimilitude: I appreciate it.
verisimilitude: Alright.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude ^
asciilifeform: trinque: loper-os reader & chronic lurker, seems ready to get in wot
verisimilitude: Alright; my key is registered. I suppose I'll just !!up myself next time, then.
asciilifeform: !!key verisimilitude
trinque: verisimilitude: no reason not to give it a go now
verisimilitude: I was told by deedbot I couldn't $up myself.
asciilifeform: !!rate verisimilitude 1 commonlisp & cpu design fella, , loper-os reader .
asciilifeform: !!v 4D28ECC26EACAD809DB36903FC8222D2E66A8F24E1BF6193B341CBA68723078E
deedbot: asciilifeform rated verisimilitude 1 << commonlisp & cpu design fella, , loper-os reader .
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: try nao.
asciilifeform: !!down verisimilitude
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you can privmsg deedbot nao an' light up on own steam
verisimilitude: Alright, I got that working now.
asciilifeform: willkommen verisimilitude
verisimilitude: My current PGP setup is horrible, as you can guess.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if/when you want to swap the key, ask (politely) trinque , it's a manual process
verisimilitude: I'll keep that in mind.
asciilifeform: for nao, simply avoid losing it.
asciilifeform: seems like verisimilitude has visited previously, but nao is getting into adaism via ffa ( )
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: incidentally diana_coman ( ) has quite large set of published ada ( & articles re same ), i highly recommend to read.
verisimilitude: I like the idea of writing software that handles all failure modes correctly, as awful as modern systems make doing so.
verisimilitude: Common Lisp is nice, but I want to handle memory exhaustion well and also avoid using megabytes for programs that shouldn't need that much.
verisimilitude: I'll do so, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you will find that most of the win from adaism is in the approach of thought that it encourages, rather than any mechanical aspect of the lang per se.
verisimilitude: There's the saying one shouldn't learn a language that doesn't change the way one thinks; I figured if I would learn at least one language with keyword-based syntax, strong static typing, a lack of advanced metaprogramming, among other qualities, that I should learn Ada.
verisimilitude: It's a nice language, so far, but I've yet to even finish learning all of it.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there are other langs with strong typing, but afaik ada is the only 1 where a) with actual standard b) doesn't drag along a gargantuan runtime that won't sit down in small single-chip boxes etc
asciilifeform: see Mocky's review in particular, he actually summarized the whole path that led to the thing
verisimilitude: As a Lisp programmer, what drew you to Ada, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in 2016 i found that i gotta write a safety-critical arithmetic system (nao known as ffa) and found that i cannot in good conscience do it in anyffin but ada.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in particular , any system with gc is ruled out right off the bat, as you cannot plug timing sidechannel leak if you got gc in the mix.
asciilifeform: the discussion is also summarized in ch1, .
asciilifeform: i explored various alts (e.g. standard-ml sans gc) but found that if the lang produces a binary that cannot be cleanly disasmed and shown to functionally correspond with the source , also cannot in good conscience use such a thing.
asciilifeform: eventually cracked open some bookz and determined, over course of a year+, a subset of ada which roughly corresponds to 'c without the pointeristic retardation', and used this.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you will find that the ada used by asciilifeform , diana_coman , et al, is quite distinct flavour from what you see in barnes & in various corners of the net where published ada proggies (not so many) are found
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: for instance, i do not use the secondary stack, or any mechanisms which demand it; or any form of heaps ; or classes; etc
asciilifeform: this means no array concatenation, for instance; or any string ops that do not sit down in apriori known space.
asciilifeform: and no 'access variable', except when required to bake os glue
asciilifeform: there is not presently a paper book that will teach you ~this~ lang, if you're ready to learn it you can do so from asciilifeform , diana_coman , et al. published works.
asciilifeform: there is plenty of other material in the log, to study from.
verisimilitude: Alright; I'll keep that in mind when I am finally able to study your FFA.
asciilifeform: plenty of ongoing work, too. diana_coman for instance is determining a safely usable subset of ada tasking system.
asciilifeform: ave1 is baking a gnat that can build for 'bare irons'.
asciilifeform: ( and already produced a self-contained, glibc-free retargetable gnat, works a++ for e.g. arm64 )
verisimilitude: The Ada program I have planned is in a similar way unconcerned with some of the more advanced features, because much of it is very concrete by now; it shouldn't even need to allocate memory until I have an undo and redo system in it.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: imho it is a quite fine lang for building systems where 'surprises' are utterly impermissible. but it does take work.
asciilifeform: most folx find that it takes them a coupla days to even get 'hello world' to ~compile~.
verisimilitude: I'll get to have extra fun, because the system with my editor is different from the system with the GNAT.
asciilifeform: this is not in general a problem, e.g. ave1's gnat works just fine as cross-compiler.
verisimilitude: I'm currently using GuixSD and GNAT isn't available at all, is what I mean.
asciilifeform: i intend to port ffa to msdos, for instance, and don't expect that gnat will be building it ~on~ dos box.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: try building ave1's , unless your iron is quite exotic you will probably find that you can build a cross-gnat that outputs bins for it.
asciilifeform: incidentally if you're on a x86/x64 box, ave1's gnat will run right as-is, it is built statically and outputs strictly static bins.
asciilifeform: so in principle it doesn't particularly matter what flavour of linux you're on (unless want to ~rebuild~ it, then will take a bit of sweat)
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: tell us a bit re what you're building ?
verisimilitude: When I did look into building GNAT from source, I was told in the documentation I'd already need a working GNAT; does ave1's avoid this? Then again, I suppose I could just use the GNAT I alread have on this other machine for that, if it became too inconvenient to use both.
verisimilitude: It's that tool I showed you earlier, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: sadly ~all~ gnats require a working , existing gnat, to build
asciilifeform: this is consequence of the fact that gnat is written in ada.
asciilifeform: theoretically it may be possible to build it with a diff adatron, but gnat is the only openly published one
asciilifeform: and therefore the only one we presently use.
verisimilitude: I'll be using Ada to build the practical, robust, simpler, and easy-to-distribute implementation of my machine code development tool, perhaps ironically enough.
trinque: asciilifeform: the lack of a binary-reproducible gcc really puckers when considering how to write an ebuild for ave1's gcc
asciilifeform: trinque: iirc finding & killing whatever piece in gcc outputs variant turd and makes bins unreproducible is on ave1's conveyor
trinque: considering a process that involves "bolt your hand-built gcc here" and then it rebuilds
trinque: asciilifeform: yep, I eagerly await it
asciilifeform: right, this is a must-have
asciilifeform: the ultimate win would be to get something other than gnat ( say, an adatron implemented in cl... ) that can build something resembling a working gnat. but sadly i suspect this is yrs away.
asciilifeform: ( as it is, we have an active unresolved 'thompsonism' in the mix )
asciilifeform: trinque: possibly at some pt i'ma start to pillage the bolix adatron, for this .
asciilifeform: ( whether this wins over starting from empty, remains to be seen )
asciilifeform: trinque: seems to me that for nao, a working binary build of ave1-gnat gotta be included in standard cuntoo, same as working kernel etc
asciilifeform: ( it does in fact build own self , once built, so can relight the fire indefinitely )
trinque: yep, already need working vtools to run the bootstrapper, so it's not as if there isn't a list of requirements for build env
asciilifeform: trinque: fwiw i routinely disasm what my gnat shits forth, and haven't yet found any 'surprises', so if ye olde gnat is indeed thompsonistic, it is quite subtle , rather than hammer-in-yer-face 'here's a MB of ??? that phones home to mars'
asciilifeform: ( if yer using a heathen gnat, and a gcc5+istic one, it will output the familiar gcc5isms; but we aint using one )
asciilifeform: i'd still like to ~categorically~ abolish thompsonism at some pt tho.
trinque: indeed
asciilifeform described, in the past, the general shape of the recipe for this -- you write e.g. small lisp in coupla kb of asm, and large 1 on that, and an adatron on the latter... etc
asciilifeform: 'ladder'.
verisimilitude: That's exactly the approach I've been wanting to bring about, asciilifeform.
asciilifeform: and ideally on iron that we bake, rather than x86.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ever fpgaize your experimental archs ?
verisimilitude: I've not.
asciilifeform: !#s ice40
asciilifeform: ^ starting pt.
verisimilitude: It's nice to even imagine having something that simply is and doesn't require building at all.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: ideally would have this for entire stack, transistor & up.
asciilifeform: but first must 'clean kitchen' so it even makes sense to discuss such thing.
verisimilitude: Sure; even though it's only a thought I've made little progress towards at the moment, care for a light description of how I'd do it for a Common Lisp?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: you may find interesting to study the 1 example where someone actually ~did~ it for common lisp
asciilifeform: !#s bolix
asciilifeform: << ongoing archaeological dig.
asciilifeform: 1980s usa; they built machine (and using vertical integration of own tooling, for not only os dev but pcb & ic cad etc) precisely for this.
asciilifeform: entirely extinct, casualty of politics and jawdroppingly-inept management; but item to some extent is still available as a fossilized specimen for archaeology.
asciilifeform: much of the complexity in the bolix system is, in light of modern tech, unnecessary, it was muchly constrained by the limitations of the period tech
asciilifeform: (in particular , the cost of storage)
asciilifeform: the basic approach is not only sound, however, but the only ~possible~ sound approach -- you bake a cpu that 'understands types', as discussed in e.g. and , and go up from there.
verisimilitude: Unfortunately for me, I don't own a Lisp Machine.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 80% of what there is to be learned from the thing, can be learned without access to working unit
asciilifeform: for instance, the vendor docs are widely mirrored, e.g.
asciilifeform: on top of this, there's a coupla kilometer of thread in the #t logs re what made the thing interesting.
verisimilitude: I've had or seen a number of discussions concerning such high-level machines with C programmers and whatnot. It's comedic. A C programmer will be the first to prove how type-checking in hardware and other things most assuredly result in some minute loss of efficiency or power or this or that and so is bad, but then turn around and discuss how brilliant the zero-terminated string is and how it's not that inefficient.
feedbot: << Bimbo.Club -- Philosophical Transactions. For the months of June, July and August, 1715. - Account of Books - II.
asciilifeform: 'devout' c programmer is moar or less synonymous with 'brain damage'. these are the people who think 'typed words are expensive' but think nothing of billion+ transistor in current pentium for tlb cache (so winblows can run 5% faster) .
asciilifeform: or, say , the spectacular idiocy of 'branch prediction', currently racking up cost comparable to chernobyl
asciilifeform: ( and with no sign of the inteltards 'waking up' to abandon it )
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: the zero-terminated string more or less single-handedly created the 'comp security' pseudo-industry
asciilifeform: and naturally the idiot camp splits into the 'useful idiots', who are physiologically incapable of having a clue, and the purposefully-mendacious charlatans, who know exactly where 'exploitable' comes from and ~like~.
asciilifeform: fact is, even long before lispm, on the old cdc mainframes, buffer overflow was impossible.
asciilifeform: folx knew how to do this in ~1960s~.
asciilifeform: it was 'forgotten' for what, near as i can tell, consists ~100% of reason.
verisimilitude: Let's seque to a related topic: What do you think of the Suckless crowd, asciilifeform? I read their mailing list and it's interesting to see how everything UNIX already provides is good and natural and how anything that violates the sacred tenants whatsoever is evil and bloat.
asciilifeform: !#s catv
asciilifeform: !#s suckless
asciilifeform: !#s cat-v
asciilifeform: ^ there we go
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: << summary of mircea_popescu's expedition to cat-v planet.
asciilifeform: ( at one time, they had a fella with a working brain involved, then he vanished, and what remained grew over with fungus. )
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there are other 'old unix' cargo cults in the historic record, also; all are quite similar to cat-v , near as i can tell.
verisimilitude: I'll give credit to st, which is a decent terminal emulator, but I'm not impressed with Suckless in general. They're recently combating a bug with some X font nonsense caused by stupid Unicode glyphs; their solution is to stop using the X font nonsense entirely, which will apparently cause its own issues.
asciilifeform: 'stop using' is generally the correct solution to all sortsa problem. trick is that you gotta 1) ~actually stop~ 2) not immediately replace the excised idjicy with a new one
asciilifeform: and 3) not create a vacuum that gets immediately filled by similar or even dumber
asciilifeform: outside of unix planet, typical example of type 3 failure is r5rs scheme (which is ~impossible to write nontrivial program in without reintroducing good % of what makes it seem 'light' vs commonlisp )
asciilifeform: typical 'type 2' failure is, e.g., 'wayland'
asciilifeform: typical 'type 1' fail is the various 'safety' bolt-ons to c/cpp, where yes you can use 'smart pointer' kludge but old barbaric 'dumb' is still permitted (and if you want nontrivial proggy, ~mandatory)
asciilifeform: otherwise you , yes, 'quit drinking' but started instead heroin.
verisimilitude: I've long thought it's reasonable to exert great effort to make a system perfect, where possible; it's the ideal, but maybe not practical. Perhaps the more interesting question is when to stop when you exert so much effort, but have something that can never be made perfect, by design.
verisimilitude: That's what all of these C ``security'' features are.
verisimilitude: It shows no sign of stopping, though.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: field is not at the 'let's discover immortality' stage; but at the 'start fucking washing hands and not drilling well right next to latrine' stage.
asciilifeform: and 'perfect' is red herring
asciilifeform: rather, you want first a :
asciilifeform: !#s fits-in-head
a111: 74 results for "fits-in-head",
verisimilitude: We all have different ideas of perfection; you could just have it include this.
asciilifeform: if system does not 'fit in head', it does not even make sense to ~pose the question~ re whether it is bug-free.
verisimilitude: Sure; my system I have in mind to make as perfect as I can certainly fits in a normal-sized head, or should.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: see, for instance, thread
a111: Logged on 2018-11-30 02:43 asciilifeform: if you need a 'proof system' to prove $assertion, you have NOT proven it. not to me.
asciilifeform: re what means 'fit in head'.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: 1st step is to actually impose on yerself the constraint, 'what i am writing ~is to fit in my head~. then can proceed to help other folx fit into ~theirs~.
asciilifeform: but if author failed to consciously commit to this constraint, in general the resulting work will ~never~ fit-in-head.
verisimilitude: That's reasonable; I've done that much.
asciilifeform: he will use 'libraries' and 'legacy' crapola and autoconf and etc.
asciilifeform: ffa in particular is intended as , among other things, a didactic demonstration of what means 'fits-in-head'.
asciilifeform: a student who reads & understood the thing, oughta be able to 'compile' with bare hands, using nothing but hex editor, for any iron he is given.
asciilifeform: and explain why every single byte he wrote, needs to be where it is.
asciilifeform: because he understands the arithmetic.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: as a concrete example : you will find that ffa uses an unmoving hinge for karatsuba multiplication. consequently all numbers are required to occupy a space that is a power-of-two bits wide. but from this you get a 3-4x simpler mechanism.
asciilifeform: this is merely 1 example of 'this program MUST fit-in-head, above all else.'
mircea_popescu: holy batlog.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was massaging a n00b, tends to take space.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude meet mircea_popescu .
mircea_popescu shall actually write that report, get to log in a minute.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: d00d lurked for yrs, i dun think he will suffer from waiting a min.
asciilifeform shall bbl, has meat to attend to
mircea_popescu: meanwhile some serious fucking breakage occured over here wtf.
verisimilitude: Hello, mircea_popescu, although we've met before.
verisimilitude: Well, as much as one can on IRC over a short time, anyway.
verisimilitude: I'm not certain just reading over a few years counts as lurking, but alright.
mircea_popescu: suppose you move over to #asciilifeform then ? because EXACTLY as the topic says, if you don't know where you are, you shouldn't be here.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he lives there orig, seemed ready to be introduced to other folx, as adaist. i expect will mostly lurk for the foreseeable fyootur.
mircea_popescu: i guess.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in other lulz, "Medical uses Varenicline is used for smoking cessation. A meta-analysis found that less than 20% of people treated with varenicline remain abstinent from smoking at one year."
asciilifeform: oughta become apparent soon enuff, whether fella's hands grow from right organ.
mircea_popescu: for the same money could treat them with cocaine.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol is there a pill for 'abstinent' from nail-biting also
mircea_popescu: funny thing is, 20% "success rate" drug is FDA approved, "only effective treatment"
asciilifeform: iirc freud prescribed cocaine 'against errything', and... worked, after a fashion
mircea_popescu: this fashion lol.
mircea_popescu: anyway, cocaine much better p. universalis than say radithor.
lobbes: << looks like spyked is going to take care of it (though, I dun mind rsyncing it as well) >>
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:38 mircea_popescu: incidentally, either spyked or lobbes what do you need to make a complete copy ? it IS going away, for one thing the initiator guy died and for the other thing, with their world-famous there's no way they'll stay online all that long.
lobbes: << as of now, no. I would like to see this built, but I have other items to get to first (
a111: Logged on 2019-02-02 03:49 mats: i wonder if lobbes has a portal where i can feed, say, 2k urls for archival?
lobbes is a day or so behind on logs, goes to continue catching up
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: bonus re varenicline, вареник ~= dumpling
asciilifeform: wonder if the marketwizards knew.
asciilifeform: !#s dip them
mircea_popescu: who even knows lol.
feedbot: << Trilema -- No Such lAbs (S.NSA), January 2019 Statement
asciilifeform: neat, compact.
mircea_popescu: *thumbsup*
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 22:58 asciilifeform: hm where was that mircea_popescu piece re the magick furniture..
a111: Logged on 2014-10-21 19:27 mircea_popescu: << this is incidentally great reading on the topic, albeit in languages.
BingoBoingo: !Xbuy 610mn 82 2k Wired Filthy Fiats (WU esta bien)
auctionbot: Buy order # 1037 created by BingoBoingo: 2k Wired Filthy Fiats (WU esta bien) Opening: 610mn ecu Ending: 2019-02-08 02:11:49.889189 UTC (81 hours)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was the one ! ty
mircea_popescu: !!down verisimilitude
mircea_popescu: srsly, circumventing voice model ?
mircea_popescu: next clever dork gets the ban.
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