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deedbot: << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/05/2018
ave1: I'm also working on a thin networking layer for Ada (using direct system calls in inline assembler). I got stuck on some inline assembly details and once that was resolved I got stuck on the whole select/epoll/kevent support and so forth. So at this point, applies.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-16 16:35 mircea_popescu: honestly, FEWER "this is my fork design" would be way better than more. and all that.
ave1: I'm aiming at a small library with support for UDP, TCP and UNIX sockets with direct calls to 64bit x86 and 64bit arm plus C. So far UDP + asm 64bit x86 is done.
ave1: Also no UNIX sockets yet, I was reading the documentation and came accross how linux now supports "abstract" unix sockets which have no equivalent on the file system. Pretty big WTF all over, it's implemented by having a string start with a 0 (zero) byte.
ave1: In other news, some lulzy drama underway in the Linux kernel camp;
diana_coman: ave1 hey, that would be very useful! but honestly, why not say it earlier?
diana_coman: gah, null terminator and zero starter and what next
ave1: well, I started this about 4 weeks or so
ave1: Yes, I though that bsd sockets where some sort of standard, but it seems it has warths all over.
ave1: For example BSD expects a 1byte length field in the socket address structures (which is then not used as the interface already has a separate length argument)
diana_coman: arguably it helps if others know what you are working on - perhaps one can help at some point or at least not duplicate the effort, that's all
diana_coman: ave1> I'm aiming at a small library with support for UDP, TCP and UNIX sockets with direct calls to 64bit x86 and 64bit arm plus C. So far UDP + asm 64bit x86 is done. -> mind publishing somewhere this part then?
ave1: No problem and will do...
diana_coman: looking forward to it
diana_coman: lobbes, esthlos, hanbot, ave1 - do you have something against using categories on your blogs? I find well-defined categories to be really helpful in finding stuff but on your blogs everything is in the "Uncategorized" category
ave1: aha, all my older posts are still uncategorized, will do!
ave1: now for the well-defined part, this I will have to work on...
diana_coman: ave1, the basic thing is that it's a proper hierarchy (so each post in one (sub)category and not in 10)
ave1: diana_coman, code is here;, everything is pretty much in flux still (even then name could change, currently ip addresses are in network order but ports are in native order)
ave1: this builds with the musl gnat, the binary from adacore and the latests zfp.
deedbot: << ave1 - GNAT Zero Foot Print - Take 5 - Assert and Aggregates
diana_coman: thank you ave1 ! I'll take it
diana_coman: I'll read and get back to you
diana_coman: ave1, if I get the structure right there, you have an empty root package Suckit and then children packages net and types; there seems to be also Suckit.Syscall that I see listed as dep in suckit.types but I can't find the source for?
ave1: Yes, that's right, the source for syscalls is in the platform directory (so in platform/linux-x86_64-asm
ave1: the gprbuild project file includes different source directories based on the platform you'll be building
diana_coman: ah, got it
ave1: note that all asm code was first in suckit-ip.* but I moved it to the syscall, the suckit-ip stuff will move to linux
ave1: this move caused a major headache as suddenly the syscalls seemed to not fill buffers any longer (out of every 6 invocations of getsockname about 4 would fail with empy output).
ave1: turned out with inline asm and pointers the memory needed to be clobbered
ave1: clobber is an inline assembly term, it's a list of all registers that may change during the execution of the inline assembly
ave1: but you can also put some magic names in there like "memory"
diana_coman: ugh, sounds like a mess
ave1: Every time I go deep into these things all kinds of weirdness surfaces.
diana_coman: sounds quite likely; and tbh that makes for weird/sad/hysterical reading depending on pov
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 08:05 ave1: In other news, some lulzy drama underway in the Linux kernel camp;
diana_coman: I can just about see next version of linux-with-feelings
diana_coman: at any rate ave1 this doesn't look bad at all in that it is an ada layer rather than just wrapping the c calls
diana_coman: ave1, hm, the recv_from doesn't return the length of the received string?
diana_coman: does it just block until it reads to fill the buffer or how does that work?
diana_coman: ahhhh, it returns that value, nm
lobbes: << ty for the feedback. I added the "Categories widget" to the sidebar so should make it easier to browse (
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 09:45 diana_coman: lobbes, esthlos, hanbot, ave1 - do you have something against using categories on your blogs? I find well-defined categories to be really helpful in finding stuff but on your blogs everything is in the "Uncategorized" category
diana_coman: yay, thanks lobbes
mircea_popescu: ave1 once he publishes later today you can just read/patch/collaborate.
mircea_popescu: << wait, if you have it also... then publish also ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 08:00 ave1: I'm aiming at a small library with support for UDP, TCP and UNIX sockets with direct calls to 64bit x86 and 64bit arm plus C. So far UDP + asm 64bit x86 is done.
mircea_popescu opens "Subject: Linux 4.19-rc4 released, an apology, and a maintainership note", runs into "the code of conduct addition" , loses interest.
mircea_popescu: !!rate torvalds -10 "The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my behavior"
deedbot: torvalds is not registered in WoT.
mircea_popescu: fuck you, and rot in hell.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, read on, he published it meanwhile and I am looking at it right now
mircea_popescu: schmuck. let's studiously overlook the man hut, so we can pretend "overwhelmed by cunt hut" latger on.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman i am not reading on. i'm done with torvalds.
diana_coman: ah, I did not mean torvalds!!! I meant ave1's code
mircea_popescu: dubious antecedents!!11
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 12:41 diana_coman: sounds quite likely; and tbh that makes for weird/sad/hysterical reading depending on pov
mircea_popescu: << she has a point you know ; i don't just mean ave1 though it's a fine example here. you folks have an excellent semaphore system, which works well and has been historically proven to work well (not to mention have all the interest in "feelings" of a guillotine). it is very stupid NOT to use it, to eschew use it, to miss out on using it.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 09:06 diana_coman: arguably it helps if others know what you are working on - perhaps one can help at some point or at least not duplicate the effort, that's all
mircea_popescu: i don't mean "it is against group interest". i mean it from a very personal perspective, not using this is like not using fridges, or CAT scanners. YOU miss out. your own life is shittier than it need had been, on your deathbed you'll look at less of a life than it might've been. there's just no point to run the race eyes closed, none whatever.
mircea_popescu: say "i will x" rather than "for the past n weeks i had been x" whenever at all feasible. for one thing, it'll get you more people, cuz ima redirect those trying to same x. for another thing, it'll give you something to look at, of your own. "here's what i said i was gonna do." yay or nay, it's absolutely better to have than to not have.
asciilifeform: oh hey loox like torvalds finally gone zombie ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform afaic.
asciilifeform: sad, but i expected sooner rather than later. showed symptoms.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform boys that "magically"/"inexplicably"/etc "do not seem to be able to find" #trilema generally (and "who could have predicted!!!"-predictably) come out with some kind of "since the world is entirely composed of the stupid cunts crowding over at the stupid cunt hut, it then follows i must wear pantyhose and lipstic now"
asciilifeform: ave1: << neat idea, and in keeping with the libc-removal . for some reason feels 'heavy', tho, but i am resisting the temptation to try an' figure out why atm, i am in the process of wrapping up my own ( conventional ) sockets thing for release today
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 11:42 ave1: diana_coman, code is here;, everything is pretty much in flux still (even then name could change, currently ip addresses are in network order but ports are in native order)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: torvalds danced in the noose longer than most, is all i can add
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i must disagree that ave1 duplicated the effort -- his item is foundation for a fyootoor raw-irons gnat, imho
asciilifeform: eventually either he or asciilifeform will substitute in the necessary asms, and then can build proggy sans linux etc
mircea_popescu: ps. there's a FUCKING DIFFERENCE between "my lifetime of not understanding emotions" and what's happening there. "understanding" emotion is not of the ilk of the pantsuit "you have to understand" aka
mircea_popescu: understanding emotions eminently does not map, or much relate, to the validation of stupid old cunt's "feelings".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: torvalds's thing reads like the zinoviev&kamenev 'confessions'
asciilifeform: i half-suspect that it was written 'for' him.
mircea_popescu: it is ~they~ who fail to understand human emotions ; and predfctably attempt to replace the actual complexity of human emotions with a 1-2-3 cliffnote constructed out of their own stunted half-brain. why actual humans would permit this sham is beyond fucking comprehension, and an outrage outright.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, it's just... i'm fucking scandalised. junior high "taking over the world" what the fuck is wrong with all these idiots. what, "let's all manalone while the children reconstruct the world in their image", what the fuck already.
asciilifeform: the funny part is that it won't save him any moar than it saved the 1937 folx.
asciilifeform: i suspect that the designated replacement-torvalds, in all of its 'black chix coad' glory, is already being groomed
mircea_popescu: anyway -- fuck 'em, i deeply fucking care some nobody-on-a-stick meanwhile joined the churchgoing group. whatever. but in matters of actual interest : you "were working" on an ada networking socking thing ; ave "was working" on ~same. had diana_coman not said "here's what ~~~I AM ABOUT TO DO~~~", we would have never known. if the wastefulness of this approach isn't directly obvious...
asciilifeform: i'ma disagree that '~same' , but this will only be possible to explain once mine's posted.
mircea_popescu: if they don't happen to same, that is as far as anyone knows, sheer coincidence. because in not having said, you lost on being able to know.
asciilifeform: but yes imho ave1 would've won from at least giving hint re what he's doing
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform at least posted snippets of various incomplete strange , over the yrs )
mircea_popescu: are you familiar with the resistence heuristic ?
asciilifeform: not under this name
asciilifeform: plox to expand?
mircea_popescu: there's two kinds of girls in the dungeon, when it comes to beatings. there's more than two kinds in pretty much all other context, but here just two : those who move into the blow, and those who move to escape it.
mircea_popescu: the latter thereby signal they need more beatings.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interesting, none of'em stay put ?
mircea_popescu: tis not of the flesh to stay put.
mircea_popescu: kinda the fucking point. if that were an option -- beating wouldn't be a thing. at least not for me.
mircea_popescu: but in strict terms, the utility is that it forces the above dilemma, inescapably. this is substantially what beating even is, the only proper definition thereof.
mircea_popescu: ova nyah or ova myah, pick & choose.
mircea_popescu: << don't worry, i'm STILL working on it.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 10:09 ave1: now for the well-defined part, this I will have to work on...
mircea_popescu: more than half the categories on trilema didn't get any articles in a year+, if this isn't a sign of utter and complete breakdown...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'defined' is the item that differs in asciilifeform's, in fact. i dispensed with ~90% of the knobs simply by going 'sockets are udp, that's it'. no tcpism, i.e. no accept() and the associated streamolade, no unix sockets with their weird, etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this was re sorting blog bits in categories.
mircea_popescu: but yes, the procedure is pretty much the sole mother, "when in doubt, simplify"
asciilifeform: ( ~all i got is make_socket, get_packet, send_packet , that's it. )
mircea_popescu: apparently unix sockets got a lot weirder while nobody was looking.
mircea_popescu: also, there's html5 socks now too!
asciilifeform: whole unix socket thing was ~always a massive ball of ???
mircea_popescu: ave1 Aggregates << for the record, i think this whole thing is stupid, in the camel-nose-under-tent sense. array-aggregate-operation should not draw in the gc apparatus (in its memcpy portions, whatever).
mircea_popescu: though on meditation, such a "should" might not be available on current iron...
asciilifeform: there ain't a 'gc apparatus' in gnat
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in my mind, all memory handling operations are part of the gc.
mircea_popescu: whether fucked with in any sense, allocate memory, deallocate memory, it's all one thing.
asciilifeform: you ~could~ call malloc() and free() a 'gc apparatus' (a braindamaged one, imho) but i specifically exclude it in my proggies, by banning heap
mircea_popescu: now i gotta read the memcpy reference, isn't it basically a wrapper on malloc ?
asciilifeform: there's no way to get out of memset()/memcpy() or equiv, tho ( and yes a sane iron would give it as an iron primitive )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: memcpy is simply a multiword mov
asciilifeform: ( and memset is used to clear a range )
asciilifeform: neither is connected in any way with heapology
mircea_popescu: aha! turns out i misspoke.
mircea_popescu: nfi where i picked up the idea, but not borne by facts.
asciilifeform: e.g. Foo(1 .. 3) := (others => 0) compiles into a memset(..., 0) ; Foo(1 .. 3) := Bar(5 .. 8) compiles into a memcpy . etc
mircea_popescu takes it back.
asciilifeform: re heaps, it is asciilifeform's current pov that it is possible (contrary to popular delusion) to write virtually any nontrivial proggy, entirely heaplessly
asciilifeform: ( and in fact this was sop in the aerospace/avionics world, until recently 'went microshit' )
mircea_popescu: well, except for "gui" & "feelings".
asciilifeform: for the rare exception, ada standard actually gives the tools to bake a custom heap that uses specified storage and allocation algos, bypassing the os derpery entirely
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 12:41 diana_coman: I can just about see next version of linux-with-feelings
asciilifeform has not yet had occasion to try this
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: linux kernel as a going concern prolly has ~months of life in it, if not weeks
asciilifeform: i suspect the time to snapshot and pour cement, trb style, approaches.
mircea_popescu: what approaches, lol.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i suspect it'll be a whole openssl/libressl bla bla fizzle and pop there too.
mircea_popescu: the path to argentina is well understood and better documented.
asciilifeform: the practical consequence will be 'aah you have iron that wasn't around in sept 2018? go and backport and come back to us with vpatch'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: linus's kernel was the last remaining 'open sores' item that was 'usable from upstream' afaik.
asciilifeform: d00d successfully kept out the reaching tentacles (poettering's 'kernel dbus', etc)
asciilifeform: this -- is coming to an end.
mircea_popescu: in strict professional terms, this is the sort of boon nobody could have even fucking hoped for, as a child. it's one thing to "miss out on bitcoin" because bought food instead of bitcoin in 2012. it is however a substantially different thing to miss out on engineering -- harder to fucking do.
mircea_popescu: in another decade or two, it'll be strictly impossible for the various pantsuit churchlets to do ~anything. they're rapidly losing all technical ability, and so... i mean i already can take my pick of bdsm-ish chicks in "north america -- the best country in the world". in another coupla decades, boy howdy.
asciilifeform: hey, plenty of folx manage to 'miss engineering' (e.g. by playing with 'feelings' as child instead of junkyard)
mircea_popescu: "electrolytes have the pepsi that plants need"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes, but once one ~is there~, one is there. there's no more missing out, just stick to it.
asciilifeform: d00d tired of cleaning monkey shit, handed temple over to the monkeys.
asciilifeform: possibly suffers the delusion where 'they'll beg to have me back' or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: in any case, what we do on ~regular basis is already "unthinkable" for the alt-professional (in the sense of "alt") crowd, from imperial dragoons to the "independent mind" schmucks.
mircea_popescu: there's just about no perspective which is both consistent and describes a reduction of this gap.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the way i understand it, there's a set of folx with souls, and another, larger, set of meatpuppets with soul-emulator in ms 'excel'. and no, can't bridge gap, how would this even go.
asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu , recall garcia lorca's 'alma de charol' ? )
mircea_popescu: in point of fact, historical aristocracy did not enjoy quite as deep or strict cleavage from the peons. yes your count would be "brave" where your peasanrt would be "cowardly", but this is very fucking little when compared to "in alte stiri umoristice, prostalaii astia cu fetlife si-or angajat uameni si-or schimbat saitu', pen'ca li se parea lor cam nedrept ca de ce fac io ce vreau pe-acolo. ca rezultat, mi-or murit tate scri
mircea_popescu: pturile. ca alt rezultat, am sezut doua ceasuri de-am recitit ce mizerii am scris acum sase luni, le-am rescris, si... mnoa, triplat eficienta."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok, but in 1200 a peasant could ~at least in principle~ become lord. some kind of principle, something (yes it ~never worked in practice).
mircea_popescu: good fucking luck with this new paradigm however. how, just FUCKING HOW ?!
mircea_popescu: in short -- "good news", after a fashion : everyone's fucked, and their children will absolutely never see the light of day.
lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: Sent 11 hours and 3 minutes ago: <PeterL>
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually very similar to nao -- d00d who spend childhood cleaning chicken shit instead of on horseback, was not lord material
asciilifeform: simple physiological problem, really
mircea_popescu: yes, but much easier to remedy that.
asciilifeform bbl,teatime
mod6: Thanks deedbot. TMSR~: The Pizarro August report is finally out, thanks for your patience with me for getting this completed.
mircea_popescu: twoweeks!
mod6: Yeah, was a bear.
mod6: I ended up having to go through the assets and liabilities tables like 2x.
mod6: Hopefully it gets easier. :/
mircea_popescu: hopefully!
BingoBoingo: Turns out transitions are a bitch, contrary to Craig Kate Woods propaganda
mod6: After looking at the post that I just made a bit more carefully, I'm gonna have to repost. The HTMLifier hosed up the spacing and columns.
mod6: Will report back...
deedbot: << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/06/2018
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: update re crate -- dhl says 'montevideo: delayed in customs' but no email from same of yet
asciilifeform: ( apparently takes only 3d to get to orcistan nao.. )
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Aite, you should recieve that in the next 24-36 hours
asciilifeform: aite, lessee
asciilifeform: mod6: congrats
diana_coman: ave1, I adapted my udp test from to use your suckits and it works!
mircea_popescu: "your suckit -0 it works!"
trinque: << imma start calling this "coming out"
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 08:05 ave1: In other news, some lulzy drama underway in the Linux kernel camp;
mircea_popescu: or turning out, as in the classical pimping term.
asciilifeform: what was the virological term, when latent carrier begins to show symptoms
mircea_popescu: i suppose "express", as in "genotype expresses in fenotype". though honestly, the more direct sexual reference is deeply adequate. this is a sexual matter, not genetic nor immunological nor etc.
asciilifeform: epidemiological matter.
trinque: he's offering up the asshole to spite father, like so many emo kids before him, to join the church of pantsuit
trinque: reminds me of seeing same when some overtly gay kid would go to the front of the church to get fondled by church elders and convert
mircea_popescu: i don't see the contagion angle. sexual fetishes are a matter of fashion, to some degree, but not properly speaking epidemic.
asciilifeform: trinque: kid is one thing; d00d held out for, what, 20yrs
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in this sense the more famous judas held out for 30 yrs.
mircea_popescu: yes, back when ~nobody cared he "held out".
trinque: asciilifeform: torvalds might not have been so cranky if he wasn't stuck in LOOK AT ME, I'M A MAN NOW mode for 20yrs
trinque: this is a teenaged thing
asciilifeform: possibly
mircea_popescu: i r suspect alf is the more disappointed among us. not that i hold that against him.
asciilifeform: i'll confess, did not actively follow his human output. all i saw was the kernel-dbus folx etc banging unsuccessfully at the kernel door for ~decade
mircea_popescu: i happily ignored "tech" in that decade, or most of it anyway.
asciilifeform: i'ma subscriber to 'by their fruits shall know them'(tm) algo
trinque: a teenager can do the right thing.
trinque was musing in the office earlier that Jobs died before his coming out, lucky man
mircea_popescu: consequently all sorts of things are the same to me, or not worth the distinguishing, that i believe aren't to the more involved observer.
mircea_popescu: not proposing this as a virtue.
mircea_popescu: trinque i dunno, he was into that whole "live forever in a turtleneck and short hair" pantsuit churchlet.
asciilifeform: hey, the alpha centaurians who only see the radio crapola from us, and nuffin else, prolly distinguish even less.
mircea_popescu: that he croaked is lofty irony, in that sense, but i can't imagine what coming out it'd have taken. how was he in ?
trinque: in the same pretense as torvalds, "I tell people no; this is it, right?"
trinque: apparently not, better build something behind the walls
asciilifeform: trinque: my model of is as an old-style 'vhs usa' howard hughes sorta figure. 'fuckoff, i'ma sit in my box with filtered air, and do what i want'
trinque: I think they'd have rolled him right over by now, no pretense of higher ground left
mircea_popescu: except "what i want" is "unleash the creativity in every droplet of mankind" sorta bunk.
mircea_popescu: it's a wonder they didn't cryo-whatever him.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was the marketing dept. d00d himself was moar of a quimby.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the "millenialist", so to call them, "star trek is socialist future" pantsuit group lost pretty much everything in the 2010s religious war with the "ugly fat negro women with their tits in the mud is socialist future" group.
asciilifeform: 'effective monopolist', sold the users 100 $ scsi cables, and 'make'em like it'
mircea_popescu: i never perceived him as anything other than or besides character.
asciilifeform: lol, where do you find these !
mircea_popescu: << example wank. it's a whole school of pantsuitism.
mircea_popescu: it was a very different flavour of socialism than what's currently prevailing in pantsuilands. this was supposed to be pretty much exactly star trek, "better living through technology [and carefully not looking under the rugs desighnated 'do not look under this rug']".
mircea_popescu: the whole "women are people too, muh feelings, rape is bad mkay, e=mc2 is mean because it priviledges the speed of light over other speeds much more important to us" mamie-ism is entirely a different flavour
trinque: "so long as we all revere picard it totally isn't hierarchy!"
a111: Logged on 2015-02-17 03:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, moore's dead, and the thing will suffer the exact fate of printing.
asciilifeform: helps to put current-day crapple into correct perspective. it is a creation of 1990s microshit ( massive dough infusion ), originally to defend against 'monopoly bust'. ended up revived as a replacement 'usg dept of kompyooting' as the original began to show signs of rust
mircea_popescu: meanwhuile in lulz, "WHIPPED BECAUSE SHE WAS IMPERTINENT Then Miss DeCrist Was Chained to a Negress Until She Fainted"
asciilifeform: holyfuq that url
mircea_popescu: aaand i shall bbl!
asciilifeform: what's their thing implemented in... befunge ?!
asciilifeform suspects that 'mother earth mamie socialism' and 'galacticexploration socialism' are not wholly separate, psychiatrically, items. back when 'mother industry will provide' was sustainable religion, that was the dominant flavour. after errybody's tasted buffett's petro-caviar, no longer appealed, same psychotypes went to 'mother earth will provide' historic default
asciilifeform: the fundamental flavour of the snake oil being sold, 'one day errybody can have ERRYTHING THEY WANT!11' , is quite similar in both
asciilifeform: the lizards, having access to the figs, naturally switched to the 'help'em downregulate their wants' tack. ergo 'tits in the mud' becoming order of the day.
a111: Logged on 2014-07-30 13:57 asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'
ben_vulpes: << winklevii taking a crack at "tether" market
asciilifeform: lol, swift-on-ethertardium ?
trinque recalls some other folks being arrested for "counterfeiting" after creating the "liberty dollar"
asciilifeform: trinque: but lol, see, those were cuntry rubes, scamming without Official inca franchise
trinque: << ???A unique form of domestic terrorism??? is the way the U.S. Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina, Anne M. Tompkins, is describing attempts ???to undermine the legitimate currency of this country.???
trinque: this must be that original sin people talk about
asciilifeform: trinque: i cited that one in my ancient piece , aha
asciilifeform: '“While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country,” she said.' etc
asciilifeform doesn't grasp who and for what needs yet-another paypal, just as the last N-1 times
PeterL: hey there
lobbesbot: PeterL: Sent 4 hours and 19 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo>
mod6: Hi PeterL: BingoBoingo was telling me that you wanted a Hosted Shell Plus plan for 0.002 BTC/mo, correct?
PeterL: bingoboingo what key is that encrypted to?
PeterL: why is #pizarro invite only, are not potential customers pointed there by the website?
BingoBoingo: PeterL: mod6 is worried about Allah spam in #pizarro
BingoBoingo: But you can encrypt the ssh pub key to myself, mod6 or both of us
PeterL: mod6: I was looking at the 0.001 /mo one, would that work for a blog?
mod6: PeterL: There really only is one package at this time, the Hosted Shell Plus, which is 0.002 BTC/mo, but gives you all the items you require for a blog.
mod6: And ya, would love to have #pizarro open and welcoming to everyone. I turned off the restrictions this AM and within 3 minutes, guy came in and shit in the foyer.
mod6: So they went back on.
mod6: Also folks, Pizarro needs to purchase some fiat, so if you're interested, can start up an auction if you like, or can do WU or whatever. Minimum $500, please. Let us know if interested.
trinque: mod6: can't operate a storefront without being willing to ban-per-derp
mod6: These guys are like: 1) enter 2) shit 3) leave 4) change nicl
mod6: can't really contest with that
trinque: fair enough
mircea_popescu: anti-government activities for the win.
mircea_popescu: mod6 srsly, invite-only dun work so well for a support chan
trinque: also apparently stood in the way of a sale for PeterL, albeit temporarily
trinque: maybe somebody else isn't so persistent
trinque: onboarding ramp!!!
mod6: i totally agree. kinda between charybdis and scylla on this tho 'eh
mircea_popescu: does +m no longer work then ?
mod6: i mean, for a channel to be a useful place to do things, one must be able to read it and its logs.
mircea_popescu: or what was it, +r, w/e, need to be registered to join
mod6: i guess we could leave it +m
mod6: Alright, we'll try that. Also gave info to ops on how to do things so I'm not the one channel master.
mod6: asciilifeform BingoBoingo ben_vulpes ^
ben_vulpes: mod6: ack
BingoBoingo: If #eulora can handle, we might have to raise our tolerance for the noise. Or get a bot going that than autokickbans on the phrase "Allah is doing"
mircea_popescu: might actually offer a bot-as-a-service that pms all new joins to the channel a question, and if it doesn't get the answer it doesn't voice them
mircea_popescu: sorta like deedbot lite.
mircea_popescu: trinque is this something you'd be interested in doing ? expand deedbot thusly, maybe charge chans a fee ?
trinque: that sort of hired-deedbot service is already on my long conveyor, out past hotwallet, out past repossession of linux. I'd not be offended if somebody else did this, but my version will be coming regardless
trinque: whole notion behind the invoicing system was that I'll offer these kinds of subscription services
mircea_popescu: any good reason to not shuffle it close in ?
trinque: I could move it ahead of hotwallet; oughta get linux repo work done first while the dwarf-fortress-isms of portage are still fresh in my head
PeterL: at least now I can join #pizarro, but still can't talk there
trinque: *repossession, not repository
mircea_popescu: what's deedbot, python ?
trinque: naw, lisp entirely
trinque: several lisp services using a postgresql as a message queue
mircea_popescu: trinque tbh i was thinking of revising the voice model altogether, in favour of a voice-or-kick model.
mircea_popescu: no more need for !!up, deedbot messages you on join, you got 5 minutes or somesuch to respond. if you don't, it kicks, and if it kicks you multiple times a day it also bans you.
deedbot: << Qntra - Cristina Kirchner Charged Over Criminal Conspiracy
trinque: can see the wisdom in it, if freenode were reliable. would need to account for days of bad freenode weather, or repeated reconnects without meat present at terminal would result in a ban.
mircea_popescu: "repeated reconnects without meat present at terminal" <<< this seems at best disrespectful.
mircea_popescu: why should we be asked to talk to machines ?
mircea_popescu: lola torvalds henceforth ? this is not even a bad idea.
mircea_popescu: might as well make use of the golums.
trinque: mircea_popescu: eh? I'm not following you. implementing what you described would get someone banned if their IRC client is automatically reconnecting during netsplits and etc
mircea_popescu: "makes it sound like she has reneged on a gender agreement, rather than come to terms with her identity" << exactly what fucking happened, duh.
mircea_popescu: "it's not so much that there's no more pie, as it is we ate the pie." hurr durr, endless infinity engine of unredeemable externalizations.
mircea_popescu: trinque afaik netsplits resolution preserves voice.
trinque: can, but I guarantee there are cases where someone's client will reconnect 5 times without them home
mircea_popescu: anyway, seems to me "automatic connections" is a take on "a man walks into a bar" consisting of "but it wasn't really a man, just the hologram of one"
mircea_popescu: you're saying this level of incarnation is too much to ask ?
trinque: not at all, knife can cut in the direction of "don't autoconnect, connect when you're you", and is entirely sensible.
mircea_popescu: it seems to me to be the right thing here, "connect when you're you". otherwise, who are we talking to ?
mircea_popescu: not like log reading and the !Q later device aren't available to cross presence gaps.
trinque can dig it
mircea_popescu: anyway, mostly thinking outloud.
mircea_popescu: what's exactly the benefit of having whichever-unvoiced-name idling ? that what, "they can confirm the logs" ? wut the fuck is ever going to ask the voiceless anything, i need anonvouching like i need featherhairs.
mircea_popescu: erry time i come in i send !!up to deedbot, i sent thousands to date, why ? it knows what i'm gonna say to it the momen ti show up, doesn't it ? who does anything @ deedbot BUT "!!up" when they come in ?
mircea_popescu: i guess "this cat not worth the skinning", in general, maybe. sure, not like the current model is that broken. but if you're going to support things like #pizarro, deedbot pming new names is way the fuck better than pizarro website or sales funnel including a "and then send !!up to deebot" etc.
mircea_popescu: noob support needs to be as simple and requiring of as little initiative as possible. and once that's made like that, why am i forcing you to keep an entirely separate model for #trilema ? when the same thing would actually work better in point of fact ?
mircea_popescu: simply have a knob that decides whether {crypto|plain} auth is used ; crypto does what it does now, plain asks a question, "Tell me what color is the sky", picked from a list or somesuch.
BingoBoingo: Remember the incredibly effective Bitbet captcha
mircea_popescu: then like that it's perfectly systematizable, "!!add #fuckall plain 0 intolerant" meaning "join #fuckall, kick/ban anyone who fails to answer your plaintext question, voice everyone who does answer permanently"
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:38 mircea_popescu: trinque tbh i was thinking of revising the voice model altogether, in favour of a voice-or-kick model.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hanbot predicted this.
asciilifeform: << but this, not so much. currently i have a znc poured into cement, and loathe to change anyffing at all about it.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:56 mircea_popescu: anyway, seems to me "automatic connections" is a take on "a man walks into a bar" consisting of "but it wasn't really a man, just the hologram of one"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did it ever do what he describes ? i dun think i ever saw it.
asciilifeform: actually quite recently, iirc mircea_popescu was even awake for it
mircea_popescu: can has a pointer ?
a111: Logged on 2018-09-03 19:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform << you were in a few times.
mircea_popescu: propos fdor teh archiver lobbes !
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha hm. totally forgot.
asciilifeform: fleanode suxx, 'noose at 11'
asciilifeform: << fwiw asciilifeform has various robotics passing log material to him even when he is far from a 2way terminal
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:57 mircea_popescu: it seems to me to be the right thing here, "connect when you're you". otherwise, who are we talking to ?
mircea_popescu: nuttin wrong with that.
asciilifeform: aha, was addressing the 'what's the point of reconnectortrons, i want to talk to live people'
mircea_popescu: i personally fucking loathe it, because often i want to answer, and then if i can't i have to savew it, which works poorly.
asciilifeform: makes sense
mircea_popescu: so i kinda tend to sit at term when ima read logs. maybe this is just my own workflow bias speaking.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the point certainly isn't to force people to be more like x, in any case.
mircea_popescu: it all sprung out from the "how would the deedbot pizarro service look like" consideration.
asciilifeform: << 'nonstandard' captchas actually work quite well. ( i have one in the pipeline for my www, which used an ancient heathen service thing that meanwhile died ). there was a famous ru www that had... schoolboy-level integral problems, as 'captcha'.
a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 20:05 mircea_popescu: simply have a knob that decides whether {crypto|plain} auth is used ; crypto does what it does now, plain asks a question, "Tell me what color is the sky", picked from a list or somesuch.
mircea_popescu: certainly.
mircea_popescu: the problem with "kick only, no banning" is that the same sort of idle morons that currently idle here would just go to war with the bot with their autoreconnectors ; deedbot would kick the same idiots over and over and oever again, possibly for the next 5 years.
mircea_popescu: this is the whole fucking point here, pierce the "convenience" world.
mircea_popescu: this situation where "i idle in 560895409860 channels and have last read anything 176 weeks ago" gotta fucking cease.
asciilifeform: recall the iptables thread ? bans are not a perma-pill, same derps could just as easily go to war with fleanode's nick reg mechanism, get 9000 clean nicks, neh.
mircea_popescu: by the time they do that, "why are you not just being normal" becomes quite hte question
asciilifeform: seems to me that items come in 'allcomers' and 'closed wot', and 'allcomers+bans' is simply recipe for whackamole
mircea_popescu: not that i'm even for a second proposing this is impossible. #eulora famously had one moron who "played" the game for months, merely creating accounts, never actually went in.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform bans are currently free, i don't maintain the list.
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with seeing what happens with a really long one.
asciilifeform: !#s remoras
asciilifeform: ^ i'ma all for the remora ddt.
asciilifeform: strikes me as orthogonal to the voice q, tho
a111: Logged on 2017-03-22 20:53 ben_vulpes: i'd almost rather see an auto-kicker
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu puts in a 'folx who lurked for n day and said 0' kicktron, i'll clap.
mircea_popescu: well this'd be it.
asciilifeform: so long as it specifically excludes validly-wot'd folx, i can't see any possibl problem
asciilifeform: nobody needs the 'i'ma lurk here for a year because reading www logs is against koran' types for anyffing, imho.
mircea_popescu: so you'd want " if you don't, it kicks, and if it kicks you multiple times a day it also bans you." ammended to " if you don't, it kicks, and if it kicks you multiple times a day and your wotranking isn't >1 it also bans you." ?
asciilifeform: sounds like entirely good pill.
mircea_popescu: this may even be feasible, i don't imagine the wotscore lookup is that expensive. i dun see anythinf wrong with it, if anyone's annoying easy enough to fix the score.
asciilifeform: aha, same mechanism as trinque presently has for voice filter
mircea_popescu: prolly >=1 in there. but anyway.
asciilifeform: to rewrite the equation, there's a set of folx who have some biznis connecting, and a larger set who do not, and fortunately they are mechanically distinguishable
asciilifeform: as for the classic voice model, i admit that i like the hidden feature where it causes folx to periodically reassert that they still control their key
asciilifeform: ( this is where it wins over simple 'moderated' chan with hand-curated people list )
asciilifeform: i can't speak for others, but asciilifeform does not find having to unsheath the launch coads erry coupla wks, to be huge headache
asciilifeform: ( and e.g. mircea_popescu unsheaths ~erry day, and i dun recall him finding it headache )
diana_coman: the question+kick&ban sounds good to me - kicking "silent" aka "I'm part of it because I hang about in here doing nothing" is even needed by now, I'd say; I can also see very well its usefulness for other channels; while atm #eulora tolerates the allah-spam, it could certainly do without it especially at less-quiet times
mircea_popescu: well, i certainly prefer it to the alternative, whereby ghost-of-mp long after floats about the land
Mocky: allah-spam in #eulora seemed mere annoyance until I noticed how it inserts pages of spam with log search results.
Mocky: *into* log search results
trinque: wot rating lookup isn't heavy at all, sounds like a plan.
asciilifeform: !Q later tell diana_coman .
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ^ eventually i'd like to rewrite the human-string routines, and get rid of the unix callout there, but imho errything else prolly oughta stay as is.
asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf plox to snarf vpatch in , ty
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform will bbl.
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