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deedbot: << Trilema - This is Trilema post #80808 and I'm running out of passible titles.
ave1: !Q later tell trinque, my comment seems to be stuck in transit;
ave1: !Q later tell trinque, my comment seems to be stuck in transit;
lobbesbot: ave1: The operation succeeded.
ave1: !Q later tell phf, I found the raw logs here, this go back to 2016. Do you also have the raw logs before #trilema? and could I download these somewhere (I tried to search the log but, so far seems to be looking for a pin in a haystack)
lobbesbot: ave1: The operation succeeded.
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mod6: mornin'
BingoBoingo: Mornin'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was thinking of your puzzler: if you want always optimal path, it afaik reduces to A* search. actually quite similar to pcb routing.
asciilifeform: the odds/evens aspect gives it a 'nim' flavour , so there might be a seekrit optimization..
mircea_popescu: if you recall ye olde (especially in the light of style arguments), it should be obvious this is a sort of private mp worship
a111: Logged on 2017-12-28 14:25 mircea_popescu: there's an imbecile's view of "intelligent design" being floated about (mostly by people who are looking for a strawman, and reconstructed by them for this purpose). here's the correct version :
mircea_popescu: "how the fuck is it that i can restate alf's fg problems in terms of a mmorpg ?" and so on.
asciilifeform: ( to draw it as a graph, lay out only moves that 'conserve mass' )
mircea_popescu: as the perdurant reader no doubt noticed, i'm a great restationist.
asciilifeform: hey arithmetic worx on apples and bricks alike
mircea_popescu: this, incidentallty, being the only metaphysics question worth asking
mircea_popescu: none of the usual bullshit, "why something rather than nothing" "what is god" bla bla bla.
asciilifeform: 'the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics'(tm)
mircea_popescu: no. WHY arithmetics works on bricks and apples alike ?
mircea_popescu: there's no fucking reason "directly available". not all sets gotta be the same kinds of sets.
asciilifeform: ( << the old piece of that title, for anyone who cares )
Mocky: mircea_popescu, i just added a comment to puzzler blog post but seems cut off mid way
Mocky: oh prolly my use of angle brackts for arrows ->
mircea_popescu: do not do that.
Mocky: we need more angle brackts
mircea_popescu: html see ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, repost your whole thing and ima delete the abortive attempt
asciilifeform: pretty sure i stepped on this mine at least once
asciilifeform: inbandism!111
mircea_popescu: what can you do, provide pre-structured comment fields ?
phf: asciilifeform: beat me to it, re puzzler as graph traversal
lobbesbot: phf: Sent 5 hours and 50 minutes ago: <ave1> found the raw logs here, this go back to 2016. Do you also have the raw logs before #trilema? and could I download these somewhere (I tried to search the log but, so far seems to be looking for a pin in a haystack)
mircea_popescu: imo this is a fine example to teach the failure of "no inband!!!"
Mocky: ok, done. thx
a111: Logged on 2018-06-25 22:10 asciilifeform: but this is 'obvious to alert reader'(tm)(r)
asciilifeform: phf, mircea_popescu : i half-expected 'lol noshit, any puzzler can be written as A* search, this is copout' lol
phf: asciilifeform: well, i suppose _i_ was expected to say "oh it's just a SAT"
mircea_popescu: i mean :p lel
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in principle this type of inbandism is curable, with simple pill, lookahead parser -- if not ~actual~ html, comment is processed as plain text. rather than the 'oops here's a < so i'ma drift off into stratosphere' existing nonsense
mircea_popescu: mp-wp patches welcome!
asciilifeform: this item's actually on my list for if/when i live to get to wpism patches
mircea_popescu: imo current parser right thing -- it removes all non-permitted tags, which includes all non-terminated tags.
mircea_popescu: how about people learn to write proper html for once ?
mircea_popescu: support for this bs is how html soup became a thing.
asciilifeform: escapes for < and > ?
mircea_popescu: you are talking to a computer ; if you open a tag you close it ; nobody gives a shit what you ~thought~ the alphabet meant.
asciilifeform: this gets very unpleasant, very quickly, sorta why blogs with code snippets are stuck with wp plugin crapola
mircea_popescu: support for they naive is not worth having. know what talking to a computer means as part of your existing in the world, which is to say, outsider of the harem where some slave spawned you.
mircea_popescu: trilema has code snippets no plugins crapola.
asciilifeform: i'ma have to read this wonder
mircea_popescu: Mocky answered ; prepare to mindblown ?
Mocky: aha, I suspected something like this would surface
Mocky: completely unknown to me
phf: ave1: ah thank you, i forgot that i kept the two separate. the folder is not exposed, but i'll merge the two together. there's also an even older (spotty) log from apr 2012 to oct 2013, that includes pre #b-a #bitcoin-otc content, that's available through btcbase, but exists only in xchat (?) log format, that i parse
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asciilifeform: whip, whip that hellespont!
mircea_popescu: heh, remember when "car manufacturers", got dekulakized by the pantsuit, resulting in some shit packaged in ye olde "mercedes" "wv" etc boxes, which then didn't work worth a shit ?
asciilifeform: the diesel thing ? aha
mircea_popescu: but remember when politburo decided shit sandwich just as good as imperialistic-bourgeois decadent cured meats ?
asciilifeform: apparently the vw people weren't quite 'smart' enuff to try an' prohibit mileage benchmark
mircea_popescu: and pravda wasn't allowed to publish benchmarks anymoar ?
asciilifeform: i can picture the intel execs, golf club in one hand and martini in other, 'why didn't we think of this before' 'hey next time let's not just prohibit benchmark, but only if answer isn't what we like' 'brilliant, this will be at next board agenda'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik the car people still required to publish 'mpg' in usa. the konsoomer simply told to suck it.
asciilifeform: ( auto still elementarily includes odometer an' fuel gauge, can't exactly hide the figure )
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, picture also the morons making all the "smart" airport humiliation technology, golf club in one hand, martini in another, trying to figure out how their entire hr dept imploded over the weekend and what to do about it./
mircea_popescu: the very same.
asciilifeform: since when is 1 chix a 'dept'
mircea_popescu: since america ended.
mircea_popescu: the ineluctable fate of dead empire, stuck pretending, is that everything's a succession of single points of failure.
asciilifeform: so they sit for a day without a secretary until hire new one
mircea_popescu: outsiders can't readily appreciate the sheer POVERTY of all these chosen sons.
asciilifeform: erry slave galley i've ever toiled on, solved this problem by... hiring secretary from the actively-imploding firm next door
asciilifeform: ( i imagine, triggering a kind of domino cascade, whoknows )
asciilifeform: they move, like electron hole in semiconductor.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Catch is if they hire the wrong secretary, they are the next firm to implode
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 99% of what 'hr' chix does , in american firm, is filling out usg.mandated crapola for new hires. not exactly reactor control.
asciilifeform: trained dolphin could prolly manage.
BingoBoingo: Well, hr chix are also responsible for making a hostile work environment by promoting 500 species of harrasments
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: typically that's at large galleys where there's 4 or 5 of'em
asciilifeform: per branch office.
BingoBoingo: Well, that's probably why the condensed their HR department to this single HR operator.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you have no fucking idea.
asciilifeform: small firms get to outsource the ritual to corps of professional priests, they mail in the mandatory oaths, slide decks, etc .
BingoBoingo: I can't imagine there is a surplus of HR chix capable of working alone or in sufficiently small groups to avoid creating a culture of drama.
mircea_popescu: no, seriously. this is the live-on-boat thing all over again.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can only comment re what i saw personally.
mircea_popescu: do you realise that ~the whole item is powered out of"clerical error" ? "you put wrong x on wrong color form, now you owe six figures" ?
mircea_popescu: sold house at wrong time, added to "401k" wrong amount, bla bla bla.
mircea_popescu: most of these people ~are poor~. single clerical error in hr can destructure a firm through the simple procedure of "director" is now "inmate" as can not afford to pay tax bills ?
asciilifeform: that'd be in the cpa, not hr
mircea_popescu: there's 0 slack on one hand ; and the whole thing is powered on "mistake".
asciilifeform: errywhere i've seen with own eyes, these were separate desks
mircea_popescu: what "cpa" ? hr does everything. payroll, relocation, you name it.
asciilifeform: and cpa is a contractor, and theoretically liable for 'oops, wrong form'
mircea_popescu: you are talking of a world that only exists in your own imagination.
mircea_popescu: what, who ? deloitte ? liable ? REALLY ?
mircea_popescu: or what, ernst & young ? "oh, they did it" ?
asciilifeform: on paper, lol
mircea_popescu: get out of here.
asciilifeform: in reality , obviously 'we have note from hitler, and you don't, suck it'
mircea_popescu: did read "and law firm is liable for difference, which it'll pay" ?
asciilifeform: last i knew , they were paper-liable for 'coarse errors of pilotage' strictly (e.g. 'wrong form wrong time' )
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asciilifeform: at any rate, if mircea_popescu tells that there's a boiler room scamop where the hr chix is also the accountant and the council etc -- i'ma believe him, at this point i'm ready to believe plenty.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: got it, interesting
asciilifeform: gnarly.
asciilifeform: and indeed usgulag is powered by not only printing press but confiscating savings from ~randomly-picked engineers, little-league 'ceo', etc . a la mr stack.
asciilifeform: for that matter asciilifeform's been on receiving end of it personally.
mircea_popescu: someone's gotta pay for all the women sitting around dreaming shit up.
asciilifeform: [insert the mandatory m: 'what the fuck are you still doing there, are you a tard' a: 'i dun have useful skills for outside the fence' thread here ! ]
mircea_popescu shall bbl.
asciilifeform: see also (tm)(r)('donald duck', 1942)
a111: Logged on 2014-06-30 02:26 asciilifeform: 'Iz this Nutzi land so good / Would you leave it if you could / Ja, this Nutzi land is good / Ve would leave it if we could!'
asciilifeform: i'll add, usg learned from ye olde ussr -- the latter was equally efficient at preventing plebes from accumulating escape-powering capital, but less so at preventing 'marketability' outside the barbed wire. hence the 1st wave of emigres who went into waiting arms of natostan industry, academia. but current-day usa, they patched this hole, nao you gotta have some pretty serious world-class talent ( e.g. concert pianist ), or at the ve
asciilifeform: ry least cuntlips and mp-approved figure, to get properly and truly loose.
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform is not the only 'tard' tuned in, last i knew mod6 , trinque , ben_vulpes , lobbes , also still behind the wire.
asciilifeform: i can't speak for what particularly they're manacled to, only for self, tho.
phf: 1st of emigres to go straight into natostan * were serious world-class talent, others worked cashier jobs
asciilifeform: phf: aha
asciilifeform: i've met both, this is not a seekrit afaik
asciilifeform: there was a short transition where 'ok we'll give you professorship, but not tenured' but it was short.
asciilifeform: i suppose i oughta have included phf in the list of 'i have nfi what ~they~'re still doing in natoreich'
asciilifeform: ( iirc phf mentioned even having a working ru passport )
BingoBoingo: And we have received 5 1TB SSD's.
mod6: hey! nice!
a111: Logged on 2018-08-23 16:52 deedbot: << Qntra - Intel Adds "Anti Benchmarking" Clause To Licenses For Microcode Updates
asciilifeform: the notion that 'intel with fixes' will have process isolation, is hilarious
asciilifeform: there's 9000+ nobus, and the ceremonial 'fix' for 3 or 4 makes no diff
asciilifeform: anybody who actually relies on process isolation on x86, of whatever kind, is 100% fucked, dun matter what kind of mind games he plays with himself or his misfortunate customers
Mocky: I initially ruled out A* for lack of admissible heuristic. maybe asciilifeform can see O(1) (or even O(n) ) heuristic to estimate remaining steps in e.g. without ever overestimating
a111: Logged on 2018-08-23 15:41 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was thinking of your puzzler: if you want always optimal path, it afaik reduces to A* search. actually quite similar to pcb routing.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-20 14:39 mircea_popescu: i have eight sets of "sb" (solid branch) : 503 q 222 ; 1466 q 3 ; 973 q 207 ; 983 q 252 ; 1651 q 258 ; 2963 q 189 ; 563 q 22 and 336 q 225. the first number is the count, the second the quality (depends on your mining, whatever) ; you can mix these, the game will floor the average quality. this means you can lose matter through mixing, so you want to mix stacks so as to obtain the highest possible quality final.
asciilifeform: Mocky: admissible heuristic is not difficult, simply must not ~over~ estimate the cost. can simply take 'number of remaining piles , squared' or the like
asciilifeform: or maybe not, hm
Mocky: for example this pile of 4 requires 2 moves: 1x1q 100x1000q 100x1001q 1x2001q, while if you do it without the last pile: the remaining 3 require 20 steps
Mocky: but i've been thinking on this, and I do think it's possible to come up with one that works in linear time
asciilifeform: Mocky: i still dun get why your algo requires the xor of the ~quality~'s oddness bits to be 0
asciilifeform: Mocky: you can losslessly mix e.g. Na=10,Qa=8,Nb=5,Qb=11
asciilifeform: ( possibly mircea_popescu already pointed this out , but it follows from the eqn )
asciilifeform: (80+55) = 9 * (10+5) , new quality is 9, integer
Mocky: well, i was given a somewhat different problem statement 2 months ago. more of a software requirement than problem statement actually:
lobbesbot: Logged on 2018-06-10 18:59:23: <diana_coman> so you want to ever mix only same quantity of items and of qualities either both odd or both even so you don't lose anything
asciilifeform: this statement is true, but it overtight constraint on moves
Mocky: turns out oversimplification
asciilifeform: any move that satisfies the eqn K(Na+Nb) == NaQa + NbQb , where K is integer, is valid
asciilifeform: (i.e. lossless)
Mocky: i get it now
mircea_popescu: Mocky it's certainly possible to give maximal step count though O(n) heuristic.
mircea_popescu: amusingly, prime number count heuristics play a part.
Mocky: asciilifeform, at the time, wasn't trying to confirm correctness of problem statement, was trying to deliver useful feature as described
asciilifeform: Mocky: rright, but iirc mircea_popescu posed 'prove this algo is optimal, or if not, show the optimal' puzzler
mircea_popescu: yeah, what diana specified there was basically the already extant private item.
mircea_popescu: mod6 i'm sorry, but ima have to refund you. whole exercise turned into a massive pile of idiocy. im closing an entire bank out of the loop over their idiotic misbehaviour ; we'll have to try this again later on.
Mocky: asciilifeform, sure but demonstrating overtight constraint in extant algo dun do either. nor does proposing A* without heuristic
mircea_popescu: fucking useless "banks", i swear to god by now it's the exact equivalent of "technology" from bed sitting room, guy-pedals-electricity.
mircea_popescu: mod6 what'd you prefer, !!pay or ecu ?
mod6: mircea_popescu: ah ok, thanks for the update. I'll get back to ya here in a bit on what's best for unwind.
asciilifeform: Mocky: i dun have a proper heuristic yet. but must note that 'xor(qa&1, qb&1)==0' is overtight, so unlikely that earlier algo is optimal
Mocky: noted
asciilifeform: !!up diana_away
deedbot: diana_away voiced for 30 minutes.
diana_away: hey, thanks asciilifeform ! back from the Pacific here, still no ocelot
lobbesbot: diana_away: Sent 3 days, 18 hours, and 28 minutes ago: <mircea_popescu> what if we hard-forbid low ids, server side as ad interim measure ?
BingoBoingo wondering if Costa Rica does Arepas or if those never made it across the Darien Gap
diana_away: BingoBoingo: what are Arepas?
BingoBoingo: diana_away: Latino johnny cakes. A flat cornbread just thick enough to split and stuff with other Latino foods.
diana_away: hm, here they have this "tres leches" cake that kid is in love with
diana_away: food wise to be honest I kept to fish and seafood which are both good and fruit which is clearly an entire level above what one gets in europe but apparently I like it better in cocktails if anything
diana_away: I'm not much for tropical fruit apparently
diana_away: I even had a "shrimp spaguetti" with white whine and what-not - it was delicious; oh, and the fig cake - this should be on asciilifeform's list I'd say
BingoBoingo: All the expats from baseball latino lands (Colombia/Vzla) seem to love Maracuy√° (passion fruit), but I find the flavor rather astringent and bitter.
diana_away: I guess I should give that one another try here too
BingoBoingo: If you come to Uruguay, avoid the shrimp pastas. Very underwhelming as a rule.
diana_away: this clearly had more wine and shrimp than pasta so it was good :D
BingoBoingo: Most pastas here are underwhelming, but when you add shrimp they charge too much of a premium for the disappointment.
diana_away: ahahah, sounds real
BingoBoingo: This is not a very seafood oriented culture despite proximity to the sea
diana_away: I found funny here this thing with american-pretending-to-be-italian food esp salami in the supermarket
BingoBoingo: We get some of that.
BingoBoingo: In the supermarket we also get mixed English/Spanish food labeling. Like the envelope of "Arroz Primavera" which is subtitled "Rice Primavera"
diana_away: ahaha
diana_away: on the bright side I can say that I got along with my adapted italian so far
diana_away: ticos seem generally eager to figure it out anyway, so it works
BingoBoingo: Or the "Manteca de mani: Creamy" which looking closer at the label came to Uruguay from Germany via Venezuala
diana_away: mircea_popescu ping
diana_away: BingoBoingo: are people in uruguay walking on the side of the motorway too?
BingoBoingo: diana_away: More commonly IN the motorway
diana_away: improvement!!!
BingoBoingo: And the motocicletas use the sidewalks for delicate maneuvers
diana_away: they had at some point this big sign reading "more monkeys than people" so perhaps they know something about it
diana_away: oh and the great sign on the beach: "sandwishes allowed@
diana_away: kid loves the monkeys but he found some very friendly "amigos" ticos rather too much
BingoBoingo: I did learn this week that the word for guinea pig in Spanish is "Cuy" so I can have fun with that asking vendors at the feria to help me pick a good one for dinner
BingoBoingo: It turns out the get the "pig" in their name because they do look like little pigs when you get the hair off of them.
BingoBoingo: The kid may be disappointed by the lack of monkeys in Uruguay
diana_away: ah, I'd always thought they looked more like fat rats
diana_away: there were some monkeys going on the wires with the tails curled on a higher wire so it was basically trolleybus monkeys
BingoBoingo: lol, like Squirrels?
diana_away: squirrels are clearly just furry rats
diana_away: although the red ones which are the only proper squirrels look less like rats
diana_away: re picking stuff, I did ask for some chicken for the child at one restaurant and what he got clearly went moo in its life but since he did not complain anyway...
BingoBoingo: I'm still calibrating when/where to have low expectations here
BingoBoingo: !!up diana_away
deedbot: diana_away voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: Mocky, mircea_popescu , diana_away , et al : anybody find closed form for 'q1 and q2 miscible or not' ? all i have is Na(Qa - k) + Nb(Qb - k) = 0, for 1<=Na<=size(pileA), 1<=Nb<=size(pileB), integer k exists , but no better
asciilifeform: but i suspect that i'm thick
mod6: mircea_popescu: Alright, sorry to keep you waiting here. I'd say Pizarro is fine to hang on to ECU if we can try again in the next say, 60 days. This would eliminate the step of having to buy ECU (which clearly isn't a problem anyway). Otherwise, you can just !!pay. Amount was 1.1bn ECU. I originally bought 1.2bn from dpb, and I was going to hold the remaining 100mn until the end of the year, unless we
mod6: used it.
mod6: Unless you want to also do us the favor of taking the additional 100mn ECU, and just !!pay'ing 1.2 BTC back to Pizarro. Totally up to you. We appreciate very much your efforts on this. I think we'll find a way eventually.
asciilifeform: so if we say F(q1,q2) = 1 if miscible, 0 if not, then e.g. F(2,3)=0, F(2,5)=1, F(3,5)=1, F(4,5)=0, F(4,7)=1 ...
trinque: << ah, hadn't checked the queue in some time. approved (afaik this means your next comment won't require approval)
a111: Logged on 2018-08-23 07:04 ave1: !Q later tell trinque, my comment seems to be stuck in transit;
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 17 hours and 18 minutes ago: <ave1> comment seems to be stuck in transit;
asciilifeform: very definitely ~not~ if-and-only-if xor(qa&1, qb&1)==0 tho.
trinque: I'll try to find time to reproduce soon. you are correct that the var in script needs to point to the version of portage in distfiles.
trinque: will otherwise reply on teh blag
trinque: << not manacled, texas doesn't bother me, and I've not concluded yet how far away currency implosion is for the great soviet
a111: Logged on 2018-08-23 17:59 asciilifeform: i can't speak for what particularly they're manacled to, only for self, tho.
trinque: if soon, I'm going to ride it out right here.
asciilifeform: trinque: makes sense. tho thread wasn't about the inevitable mass implosion, but the erryday 'losing the lottery' where usg decides yer a good candidate for cokemachine
asciilifeform: ( currently seems to stick to preying on the bottom half of the bell curve, mostly, but i suspect this won't last )
asciilifeform: not even speaking of whatever part of you is denominated in fiatola, ~that~ they can pick up and walk off with whenever feel like it, without even arrests or trials
asciilifeform: by all indications, texas, or alaska, or apparently even mexico, not far enuff.
trinque can't argue it wont happen, or whether I have to shoot somebody breaking in tonight, or...
asciilifeform: if history's any guide, they're still in the 'first we'll try and starve the judenschwein, make'em unemployable, then they'll sell their gold to good aryans on their own power' stage of the algo
asciilifeform: but i dun specifically know.
asciilifeform: fwiw both '20s su and '30s reich followed this model.
trinque: who in this model is the jew, in the present case
asciilifeform: us zeks with btc
asciilifeform: 20th c was century of dekulakizations, where 'these motherfuckers won't give up their hard currency to socialist motherland, let's light fire under their feet', typically shooting was not 1st step, but last step, of algo
mircea_popescu: trinque how many men > 50 with a house do you know ?
mircea_popescu: what's the ratio of those to men > 50 who ~used~ to own a house ?
trinque: quite a few, but my meatwot isn't generally representative
mircea_popescu: well, it's the argument he's bringing. "whether the pantsuit "nationalize" property for reasons to do with the property, like the soviet-pantsuit, or for reasons to do with you, like the nazi-pantsuit, fact remains they're stealing shit because they're socialists, that's what they do"
a111: Logged on 2017-06-29 17:32 BingoBoingo: << "Her attorney informed us this morning, that although the deed is being assigned to my sister, my brother and I, that if my mother requires nursing home care through Medicare at any point over the next five years, that the Feds will take the house to pay the bills. "
trinque: sure, only thing I'd counter is the game by which they steal is the same test-taking nonsense seen elsewhere
mircea_popescu: herr heinrich who used to have a nuts and botls factory which hitler took from him because "we had a dreirich younger and better and managing your factory" or which stalin took from him "Because factories don't belong with heinrichs", in the end the same thing occured.
trinque: it's not as though anyone's coming at me with quantum physics on an IRS form
mircea_popescu: trinque the proposition is that to believe you understand "the method" is a nonsense stance, in a circumstance where "the method" is mere pretense.
mircea_popescu: yes, "you understant how esltard chicks mate", dates, whatever. looky here : the cunt will fill up, there's no method. there's only fashion, and fashion's a) irrational and b) unreliable.
asciilifeform: trinque: usg tax code weighs, what, 15 tonnes ? didja srsly read all of it ? betcha there's 9001 ways to hang you, me, any other zek, in'ere, if needed.
asciilifeform: ( and, bonus, is amended ~erry week )
trinque: this imagined circumstance where they're even 5% effective is just that.
mircea_popescu: "needed" being rhetorical flourish. i don't crush ants because needed.
trinque: they're not staffed for that
mircea_popescu: trinque you know, being shot at is <5% effective.
mircea_popescu: most people tend to take it seriously.
asciilifeform: 'needed' is broad concept. happened to see ant , stomped
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform or happened to not see.
asciilifeform: either worx.
asciilifeform: when ant specifically targeted, it's short shrift , 10y ago they would've tried you for your woman's illicit fox coat, or that d00d with the 'illegal wood' guitar, etc. today not even this needed , 'ooops police broke wrong door' etc
asciilifeform: 'ooops your aunt had stroke and now in nursing home, you owe yer 2 houses'
trinque: where is the wonderland without "oops X fucked your Y" and I'll pack today
asciilifeform: 'we saw you got 10 btc and didn't declare, that'll be 900k plz by tuesday'
trinque: I recall plenty of razorwire in CR. decorative?
mircea_popescu: they're fixated on metalwork.
asciilifeform: trinque: the way i conceptualize it, yes errybody has sr-90 in their bones. but some folx live right on top of reactor 4 , and others not
BingoBoingo: Seriously, here they have metal fences around everything. Totally decorative
mircea_popescu: also he should have said decorative??? like in those old pot awareness psas.
BingoBoingo: Some here top there fences with small electric fences. Stotting behavior
asciilifeform: it is possible to be shivved by street robber in sao paolo, or gnawed by bear in kamchatka, etc. but robber and bear do not grep yer packetz for 'might have btc' etc
asciilifeform: they're 'shrapnel addressed 'to occupant'' rather than 'bullet with yername on it'
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo amusing chinesium, they click/spark etc.
BingoBoingo: Occasionally set fires
BingoBoingo: I doubt most are powered on
mircea_popescu: expensive lol.
BingoBoingo: Seriously
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ordinary compass will tell you if it's powered, no need to touch
mircea_popescu: << argentards think pasta is potato flake mush.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-23 22:41 BingoBoingo: If you come to Uruguay, avoid the shrimp pastas. Very underwhelming as a rule.
BingoBoingo: They only happen here ~10 feet up on top of unelectrified barriers.
asciilifeform: ( esp if you think there's an alarm, connected to gestapo , with current sensor )
a111: Logged on 2018-08-24 00:20 asciilifeform: Mocky, mircea_popescu , diana_away , et al : anybody find closed form for 'q1 and q2 miscible or not' ? all i have is Na(Qa - k) + Nb(Qb - k) = 0, for 1<=Na<=size(pileA), 1<=Nb<=size(pileB), integer k exists , but no better
a111: Logged on 2018-08-24 00:21 mod6: Unless you want to also do us the favor of taking the additional 100mn ECU, and just !!pay'ing 1.2 BTC back to Pizarro. Totally up to you. We appreciate very much your efforts on this. I think we'll find a way eventually.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right! but how to evaluate F(qa,qb) without iterating through all possible na,nb.
mircea_popescu: closed form is closed form, fuck you and mz. heuristics tied together to the same pole.
asciilifeform: i sawed on it, tried to transform to system of diophantines, but came up empty
mircea_popescu: hence my comment re euler's count of primes etc.
asciilifeform: didn't even get as far as primes
asciilifeform: ( if mircea_popescu did, would be interesting to read how )
mod6: mircea_popescu: yeah, go ahead and !!pay 1.2 BTC back to me, and I'll meet ya on eulora to pay you 100mn ECU. Thanks!
mircea_popescu: !!pay mod6 1.2
mod6: im in old-town when you're ready
a111: Logged on 2018-08-24 00:57 mircea_popescu: also he should have said decorative??? like in those old pot awareness psas.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my observation was, the old algo rejects some legal moves (e.g. 4,7 )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform specifically via diophantine : if a and b is a natural interval then a*p + b * q (p, q arbitrary constants) will not admit factors ever so often (when they sum to a prime)
asciilifeform: when a*p and b*q sum to prime ?
mircea_popescu: though our constraint is narrower than "not admit factors", but if you do the whole thing in modulo-ai+bi...
mircea_popescu: it comes to the same thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform am i making any sense to you ?
asciilifeform: not yet
asciilifeform: what i got thus far, is that Na(Qa - k) + Nb(Qb - k) = 0 admits solutions ( some Na, Nb ) for certain Qa,Qb but not others.
asciilifeform: 4+7=11, prime, but has solutions ( entire diagonal of'em)
mircea_popescu: what 4 + 7 is this ?!
mircea_popescu: that's not what's being contemplated.
mod6: oh when p and q are 1?
mircea_popescu: consider the intervals of N (0...a], (0...b]. for two arbitrary values from N, p, q. the sum of the series-product in the ring modulo-sum is ~sometimes~ 0.
mircea_popescu: numerically : (0..100], (0..80], 17, 19. 1 * 17 + 5 * 19 modulo (1+5) = 4.
mircea_popescu: seems to me that EXACTLY like in the original case of the diophantine approach to "just how many primes are there" we've in fact drawn a conical here in a multi-dimesional space.
asciilifeform: i follow thus far
mircea_popescu: that's all i had.
asciilifeform: cooking up a lol re subj, brb
mircea_popescu: this function is neither derivable nor even continuous. can call it eulora mix function or w/e.
mod6: neato
mircea_popescu: << the criterion rather seems to be "old[er] male". which even has a lot of historical backing (perhaps most amusing of which, anyone know how the problem of double-spent land grants was solved upon the death of caesar ?
a111: Logged on 2018-08-24 00:30 asciilifeform: ( currently seems to stick to preying on the bottom half of the bell curve, mostly, but i suspect this won't last )
mircea_popescu: pro-tip : the older set of veterans got fucked.)
mircea_popescu: mod6 i dun see you in old town ?
mod6: oh one sec.
mod6: must have timed out.
mod6: no nevermind. im over by Heina.
mircea_popescu: a new town. brt.
mod6: Oooh. Sorry thought that was old town.
mircea_popescu: nah remember up on that hill by electron ?
mod6: oooh, gotcha derp
mod6: cheers!
asciilifeform: ok, here goes...
asciilifeform: is the method obvious here or should i describe
mod6: sick tattoo
asciilifeform: white pixel : valid solution for some qa,qb,na,nb
asciilifeform: outer grid is x : qa, y : qb
mircea_popescu: is this the map of mixings
asciilifeform: inner grids are x : na, y : nb .
mircea_popescu: indeed most elegant.
asciilifeform: black squares correspond, therefore, to values of qa and qb for which no solutions are possible
mircea_popescu: Mocky check it up, in the end possibru LOOKUP TABLE!
asciilifeform: nao somebody turn this into proof !
asciilifeform: cuz i certainly havent
asciilifeform: gentlemen, start yer engines..
mod6: oh shit, it's a gif. i bet if i stare long enough a dragon pops out at me.
asciilifeform: if anybody needs a bigger ( or smaller ) ver of this lolcat, plox to write in.
asciilifeform: i made it 2048x2048 pixels, ought to print well on just about any printer , for wall lolcat hanging.
asciilifeform: can also saw it diagonally, you dun really need both halves across diagonal
asciilifeform: (symmetric)
mod6: pretty cool alf
asciilifeform: nao we haven't yet the proof, but seems like we can conjecture that if |qa - qb| = 1, then piles with qa and qb are immiscible in any ratio; elsewise, yes mixable, in a ratio that can be found, i suspect, in O(1) .
mircea_popescu: the thing is : if you mix portions of both stacks you gain ~nothing.
mircea_popescu: you want to always use up a whole stack
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you ? seems like Mocky's proggy doesn't
mircea_popescu: does, does.
mircea_popescu: mixes a whole stack with a portion of another
mircea_popescu: see, you want to fewerize the stacks.
mod6: paging apeloyee
a111: Logged on 2018-08-22 05:48 Mocky: ftr my algo does it in 40 steps preserving full value of 1,639,142:
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if it did, it would shed a whole pile for each line of move output
mircea_popescu: put x% of stack a in stack b === mix stack b with portion of a and place the result where stack b stood before.
asciilifeform: move 1 : 503x222q 1466x3q 973x207q 983x252q 1651x258q 2963x189q 563x22q 336x225q -> 503x222q 1466x3q 973x207q 983x252q 1088x258q 2963x189q 1126x140q 336x225q
asciilifeform: same # of piles as in init state
asciilifeform: ditto all the way until move 31
asciilifeform: when the 1st pile disappearance
mircea_popescu: what you say doesn't contradict what i say.
asciilifeform: aah i see it
asciilifeform: yea he adds portion of pile a to whole of pile b
mircea_popescu: now mind you, we have no proof that this is correct approach. maybe by strewning out piles you get better results in the end.
mircea_popescu: one obvious strategy : make q1 piles of everything, then min-max them, sorta like bubble sort.
asciilifeform: as i see it, this makes for new algo : 1) make list of immiscible piles, henceforth do not iterate with these 2) iterate through possible mixes, solving eqn for Na (for known Nb, entirety of pile B) and k exists . until you end with solely immiscible Q pairs. then stop.
asciilifeform: if can prove the |qa - qb| != 1 thing, can then use this algo.
mircea_popescu: there can't be inmiscible more-than-two-not-same-q piles.
mircea_popescu: 3 or more piles of diff q are always miscible further.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if my conjecture is troo, then you're right
asciilifeform: ( and as i understand it, if yer right, then my conjecture must be true )
mircea_popescu: im right, im right. there's a reason we're using "two stacks of diff parities" as stop condition.
asciilifeform: then mircea_popescu's proof for this is proof also for $conjecture, lol
asciilifeform: and can use this method.
asciilifeform: ugh was this necessary BingoBoingo !111
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i love the pretense that dumb whale has "a life".
mod6: my eyes
BingoBoingo: No, but it has been a while
asciilifeform: now my next conjecture, is that shortest full reduction never will require more than 2*P steps, P is number of q-miscible piles.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-23 21:29 Mocky: for example this pile of 4 requires 2 moves: 1x1q 100x1000q 100x1001q 1x2001q, while if you do it without the last pile: the remaining 3 require 20 steps
asciilifeform: Mocky's algo aint optimal !
mircea_popescu: so you've got a 6 steps solution ?
asciilifeform: it rejects ~3/4 of legal moves
asciilifeform: i dun have one in my head, lol. but loox on the surface that there is one.
Mocky: for sake of argument, possible it rejects 3/4 of worst moves
asciilifeform: also possible
mircea_popescu: seems decent ossasepia.
mircea_popescu: that particular example i mean.
mircea_popescu wipes tear from eye, brought forth by how eulora will entertain even the blackhearted heretics who won't "play" it. it is a tear of joyous schadenfreunde.
Mocky: but looky, maybe not 20 steps exactly, but more than 2, *no question*
asciilifeform: hey i'm playing it!111 rigthere!
asciilifeform: imho this is perfectly legit play!11
mircea_popescu: i agree.
asciilifeform: tabletop-eulora.
mircea_popescu: you'll never make the tops, but then again not everyone does.
asciilifeform didn't make tops in arkanoid as a kid, either, can live with this
mircea_popescu: man rthose lasers...
asciilifeform sings... tidididididida...
mod6: rent rockchip, make text-only-client, setup foxybot, profit???
mircea_popescu: go for it.
mircea_popescu: it's mockybot these days tho. he finally released one that works, i've been mining with it all week.
mircea_popescu: half a dozen pops or so.
mod6: hey nice!
mircea_popescu: very nice indeed.
mod6: maybe i'll give that a shot this weekend. i love mining
mircea_popescu: me too! i used to not really be able to do so much, but nowadays...
mod6: remember doing it all by hand? my arm used to hurt after hours of this lol.
mircea_popescu: didn't thickasthieves get carpal ? or am i conflating stories ?
asciilifeform: i think he contracted cuckal
asciilifeform: or whatever it's called.
mircea_popescu: i recall this being a topic at c1, and me going "oh, there'll be bots"
mircea_popescu: FORESIGHTS!
mod6: i dunno, maybe? i felt like my arm was gonna fall off a few times. but never as bad as anything perm.
mod6: but we were all running around hording up all kinds of loot.
mod6: ive still got STs.
mod6: i read that they're abundant nao tho
mircea_popescu: time for caek and cocktails, bbl!
mod6: c-ya
asciilifeform: i'ma leave the proof for conjecture #2 here :
asciilifeform: the diagonal symmetry in the inner matrices. QED.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> didn't thickasthieves get carpal ? or am i conflating stories ? << Mats has carpal, TAT went terminally comment section butthurt
asciilifeform: ( any qa-qb miscible pair of piles, can be merged in either 1 ( corresponding to the inner matrices having white line on diagonal ) moves, or 2 ( corresponding to those which do not ) .
asciilifeform: actually nm.
asciilifeform: i'ma bbl.
a111: Logged on 2018-08-24 01:37 asciilifeform:
a111: Logged on 2018-08-24 02:02 Mocky: but looky, maybe not 20 steps exactly, but more than 2, *no question*
Mocky: neither could it be done in 3*P. my given example I'd wager 50/50 if it could be done in 4*P
mircea_popescu: ah, but... how do you reason ?
Mocky: based on intuition, which i shall explain
Mocky: the 1xq1 item has a tiny mass compared to the 200 ~q1000 items, and will resolve into the q1000 pile. theres no way to mix a q1 up to q1000 using only ~q1000 items in 10 or less moves. it's just got a long way to go
mircea_popescu: Mocky : mix 1q1 with 99q 1001. new set is now 100q1k, 100q991, 1q 1001. then mix 1q1001 with 9q991. new set is 100q1k, 91q991, 10q992.
mircea_popescu: next you split the 100 into the 991 and 992 groups and you're done.
mircea_popescu: next you split the 100 into the 991 and 992 groups and you're done.
mircea_popescu: 4 moves.
Mocky: i'm going to take a minute and verify that. but i expect you to be right, and then im gonna come back and say "ah, but i chose a bad example"
Mocky: looks right, so my intuition is clearly ill informed. imma see what else I can see
asciilifeform: Mocky: the lolcatcheatsheet suggests that any legal move is able to reduce a pile at least in half
asciilifeform: ( and really, much moar )
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