Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-07-15 | 2018-07-17 → ↓
mircea_popescu: in other upbeat news, i finally figured out esthlos 's byline. leibniz huh.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-13#1431516 << in "totally forgotten" histories of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-15#1834762 ; who ever knew the shape of today is the necessary result of the failures of thrive of yesteryear.
a111: Logged on 2016-03-13 16:22 mircea_popescu: nice work with the html parser, how's it going ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-15 15:42 mircea_popescu: if anyone has serious issues with this better get a portage candidate up asap so it can be imported when cuntoo comes, because otherwise it's as dead as the woodchipped people.
mircea_popescu: lmao, "diogenes of the single candle", what gems lie burried in teh logs!
mircea_popescu: http://blog.esthlos.com/log-reading-week-1/comment-page-1/#comment-38 << check out teh trilema avatars thing working natively. win.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-15#1834857 << hm i thought you were building eulora ~back end~ . or does even backend use opengl somehow.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-15 19:32 mircea_popescu: check out this beauty : dpkg -S /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 > dpkg: /usr/lib/libGL.so.1 not found. meanwhile $ ldd /usr/bin/glxinfo | grep "libGL" > libGL.so.1 => /usr/lib/mesa/libGL.so.1 (0x00007f129e644000)
diana_coman: asciilifeform, that was from his client
asciilifeform: i was reading through cuntoo lens still.
diana_coman: and no, although we are atm still stuck on using cs-boost of sorts, at least no opengl on serverside
diana_coman: oh, and in good news it turns out that older version of screen compiles fine on proto-cuntoo, hooray!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-15#1834842 << ave1's builder doesn't seem to produce a ldd .
a111: Logged on 2018-07-15 18:03 mircea_popescu: oh, and to piss off trinque ave1 asciilifeform whoever else : quote last line of ldd --version on those vintage gccs ? :D
asciilifeform: ( it doesn't come with gcc, it's a drepperism )
a111: Logged on 2015-04-06 08:34 mircea_popescu: "In this article I am going to show you how to create an executable that runs arbitrary code if it's examined by `ldd`. I have also written a social engineering scenario on how you can get your sysadmin to unknowingly hand you his privileges."
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 14:03 diana_coman: oh, and in good news it turns out that older version of screen compiles fine on proto-cuntoo, hooray!
diana_coman: asciilifeform, 4.4.0 works
asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu , even if one were to build ldd on cuntoo, the only thing it'll ever output on locally-build bins is 'not a dynamic executable' .
asciilifeform: trinque: plox correct me if i'm wrong re subj
asciilifeform: ( possibly we aren't quite there yet, and it still links something dynamically? )
mod6: mornin'
diana_coman: he was on ubuntu
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-15#1834848 << In case it wasn't clear what this was for, was for DC payment for July 2018.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-15 19:17 deedbot: mod6 paid jurov 0.46713262
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was building a client for it.
mircea_popescu: it was the lulz of all time, /me attempted demonstrative "here, you stupid bitch, this is how computers work" only for the thing to explode, spent day fighting obscura before had build back in working order.
diana_coman: has anyone else run into this sort of thing before? checking if pkg-config recognizes zlib... yes; checking for zlib-config... no
mircea_popescu: diana_coman yes, me above lol. "is there a libgl ? yes. is it located somewhere ? no."
diana_coman: basically I have zlib installed and I even checked: it IS in /lib but ./configure doesn't consider it fine
diana_coman: and for added lol, same configure on current server reports same there BUT it says zlib is fine, ugh
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, it's not even that, it's not a location thing apparently
mircea_popescu: a damn, no ldd at all on zpf ? this is impressive.
diana_coman: oh, and similar issue as above for...curl; wtf
diana_coman: I guess I'll need to dig into the configure script to figure this one out if nobody saw it before, huh
asciilifeform: i suspect that 'only tip of iceberg' re autoconf breakage has been seen so far.
mircea_popescu: they may not even have the packages. might get away with copying something, but...
asciilifeform: autoconf is a massive pile of shit.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, given the amount of those around it would seem we are on VERY fertile ground here
mircea_popescu: in other news, here's something i want to put before the lordship :
mircea_popescu: as we're contemplating an eulora client rewrite, i am contemplating the following code release paradigm : client author a) releases code encrypted to l1, signed and deeded (so basically, gpg -aer asciilifeform -r ave1 -r etc) ; b) releases precompiled binaries for allcomers.
mircea_popescu: this release paradigm has the advantages that 1. permits us to control binaries, which means stuff like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834888 (which i'm very much impressed with, btw) ; 2. permits to reserve some interest for the author, because the strategic thinking over at minigame is that we'll want client competition (from skinning all the way to all the way) and remuneration by installs (hence all that hash dance in
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 14:07 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-15#1834842 << ave1's builder doesn't seem to produce a ldd .
mircea_popescu: the new c-s protocol) ;
mircea_popescu: 3. very clearly quashes the idiocy of rms-ism AND ers-ism ("open source" bla bla), and makes the strong political statement that indeed there is a difference between nose breathers and mouthbreathers and so on.
mircea_popescu: the evident disadvantage is that this only works if we can rely on l1 to keep a secret ; which means things (such as, that it can't be as big, for instance).
mircea_popescu: thoughts plox! (and i specifically want everyone to say at least an ack, so let's page asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo danielpbarron diana_coman hanbot lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque )
asciilifeform: hm i must've missed something -- keep what secret
mircea_popescu: the sources.
asciilifeform: let's momentarily suppose this were a good idea. how wouldja arrange, say, trinque's packages repo, to work for members only ?
mircea_popescu: i'm not saying this is for everyone.
asciilifeform: sure. but i can picture scenarios where this makes sense, and would like to see the 'unsexy', practical pov of 'how' elaborated in the l0gz.
mircea_popescu: i don't specifically know whether this would work well for systems work. but we're starting this discussion with a ~client~. 99% of people WANT the binary in thew first place.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, it's dubious that you really can keep source code secret; sure, hurdles help but...
mircea_popescu: diana_coman this depends. "in general" it's dubious people can keep sexual secrets ; and yet women managed to keep mine from betas for many many years.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it isn't impossible to keep a seekrit, but proposition re doing so to a proggy that has to run on colo'd boxen ( in many cases outside of festung pizarro, even ) is dubious imho
mircea_popescu: the key is "keep from whom".
mircea_popescu: !!rated Mocky
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated Mocky 3 at 2018/05/21 06:31:29 << Mocky Habeeb. Wrote a book on Amazon DB ; works for infraWise (which is pretty lulzy, but don't hold it against him).
asciilifeform: even outside of coloism -- e.g. google kept the troo cr50 sores 'seekrit' ; didn't prevent http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-25#1829533
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but this isn't either 1 nor 2 nor 3.
mircea_popescu: !!key ave1
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, suppose for a minute that someone not in l1 etc comes with a reasonably-close copy of one of those secret-code clients; does that mean l1 leaked or what?
mircea_popescu: it means the author has a decent claim to stand on.
asciilifeform: i guess the part i dun grasp, is what exactly mircea_popescu would wish to accomplish by making a proprietary proggy & distributing src to anointed folx
mircea_popescu: and we will have to make some kind of answer to it.
diana_coman: a decent claim to being original author of that code or to what?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't aim, not to accomplish nor to anything. but i wrote it down! by numbers! what i imagine the outcomes to be.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: deedbot gives iron pill against disputes of priority, without keeping any kind of seekrit
mircea_popescu: diana_coman to whatever he wants to pursue. be it "you fucking assholes" or whatever else.
mircea_popescu: "mp is a poopyhead" i guess.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun have any ideological allergy to 'proprietary proggy', but must point out that the historical examples are uninspiring, pretty much erryone who was specifically trying to win from limiting distribution of sores, did not win, quite the opposite.
phf: asciilifeform: a side point is that we have existing proprietary proggies, that are right now extreme cases of "bus factor". deedbot, phuctor, etc.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I know, I'm just trying to figure out what this would mean
asciilifeform: and it has 0 to do with 'million fly eyes', but with simply the futility .
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, ah, that helps actually - I think I'm getting a better idea of what you're aiming at
asciilifeform: phf: phuctor was stolen, wholesale, complete with iron it ran on, no fewer than twice. usg still dun have , afaik, a working clone.
mircea_popescu: phf i do not believe the bus factor is even remotely important there.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla got hit by a bus, it hurt ~nothing.
phf: mircea_popescu: that was a markov chain comment, that came out of "we already have proprietary code"
mircea_popescu: i do not presently believe it is ~possible~ to not to ; idiotic socialistoidisms aside. and no, i don't think the world, or even the garbage bin, of the "idealistic" "visionary" nonsense, either.
asciilifeform: phf: observe that using mechanisms created by dead people is ~very~ expensive, and seldom worth it. and they do not magically return to life by virtue of other folx having a raw copy of sores.
mircea_popescu: "oh, the code belongs to the people". things can't belong to things incapable of ownership. which is why the stars belong to me, not me to mother earth or w/e is the american indian femview.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform exactly ; in which vein one'd much rather have the original precious cuntlets that did it than the original symbolix.
phf: well, it's kind of at the core of tmsr, that king lear starts with a folly
asciilifeform: phf: in my particular case, phuctor backend is unpublished specifically because i do not want to encourage people to build on top of it. when i am killed, i'd hope that if folx still feel a desire for a phuctor they will take what asciilifeform ~publicly~ wrote on subj, and make a superior one, rather than trying to maintain the old ball of hack.
mircea_popescu: !!key lobbes
mircea_popescu: !!key spyked
asciilifeform: phf: the pov that programmingism is a kind of tard reservation ~specifically because~ of the ease of reusing ancient src, is imho defensible.
asciilifeform: at the same time, keeping secrets ~for other people~ is very costly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform explain the cost ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, there is of course the fact that l1 is neither for life nor perhaps yet all that difficult to get in and out - I don't know whether this is a l1 matter or a s.mg board matter
mircea_popescu: but just because one's out does it mean one's now an asshole ?
mircea_popescu: yes, obviously, putting any sort of depending burden upon the l1 means it'll mean more than less. but how much do we want it to mean in the first place ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cost -- 'opposability' -- mircea_popescu gives me a magic proggy, nao i have to guard it and be answerable for loss
diana_coman: it doesn't automatically mean that; but if it turns out yes, it's the client's author that is left out to dry, no?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a) there's no practical possibilty for collective answerable ; b) as discussed in previous thread (when you were trying to make up contest rules), it's not possible to prove the owner himself didn't leak.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman yes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sure . but what does it then mean to ask someone to keep a secret, if even verifying the keeping of the promise is impossible ( much less 'enforce' ) ?
mircea_popescu: that you're dealing with a human.
mircea_popescu: that's how you fuck women, yes ? they keep secrets and the verifying is impossible ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, q really is why l1 ? basically what does l1 have to do with eulora directly?
asciilifeform: imho dealing in signed material obviates whatever problem of 'am i dealing with human'
asciilifeform: i dun see what seekrecy adds.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman that part is coincidental ; it just happened that the first candidate for testing this paradigm happened to be owned by minigame.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you don't take my meaning.
asciilifeform: possibly not?
asciilifeform: let's rephrase the q -- to date , eulora published client src ; what did it lose thereby ?
mircea_popescu: i don't expect it lost anything. what did it gain ?
asciilifeform: did e.g. 'blizzard' take it and make own fraudulent pseudo-eulora ?
mircea_popescu: well it can't, server is the heart of things.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it gained whatever cost was saved by not screwing around with encrypted downloads or whatever other futile attempts to make water unwet
mircea_popescu: encrypted downloads ?
mircea_popescu: are you talking to what i'm saying or to what some other guy mighv'e said that was also an idiot ?
asciilifeform: i don't specifically know how mircea_popescu proposes to limit distribution of src . but , say, l1-ciphered encyclicals would count
mircea_popescu: how is the described process cost anything ? i dun get it. because deedbot ends up storing tons of loc ?
asciilifeform: illusions have a cost.
asciilifeform: '3 can keep a seekrit if 2 are dead'(tm)(r)
mircea_popescu: but what is the illusion ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, as I understand it, this is first and foremost a political statement; the gains are not from "oooh, you don't know my ugly code"
asciilifeform: the illusion that something given to, e.g., 7 people, is reliably in confidence . the next kako or whoever, releases the seekrit at a time of his choosing, for maximum damage, and you get to run around making faces like usg
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform really ?! we have all sorts of things in confidence i thought!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is possible to have confidence with individual people , but imho a mistake to operate on same model with group.
asciilifeform: even if the arithmetic is on the surface transitive.
mircea_popescu: nono, i didn't mean you and me. i meant, l1.
mircea_popescu: like i dunno, don't up all idiots so they shiot the log. thart's not a confidence ?
asciilifeform: not the same item at all as 'keep the magic coad from heathens' is it.
mircea_popescu: but the "keep magic coad from heathens" is your contribution to this discussion!
asciilifeform: i'm struggling and failing to come up with a scenario where it doesn't ultimately land you in the same hot pot of ridiculous boiling oil as usg boils in.
mircea_popescu: but we've done l1 releases in the past, neh ?
asciilifeform: relatively compact -- and, more importantly -- short-lived -- seekrits -- are practical. e.g. i send BingoBoingo a qntra item, gpggrammed so as not to get scooped by heathens. next hour it gets published openly.
mircea_popescu: so what oil ?
asciilifeform: organizations that try to keep long-lived secrets, inside groups with changing membership, are more or less the star clowns in the heathen circus.
mircea_popescu: this much is true.
asciilifeform: crypto is a thing; secrecy has a place, like lubrication oil; but you wouldn't build engine that relies on being soaked in oil at all times, errywhere, steering wheel , pedals and seats included
mircea_popescu: well... there are engines that work by soaking. moreover what is this, metaphore exercise hour ?
asciilifeform: if you dun care for the metaphor -- there's the old and continuing promisetronics discussion.
mircea_popescu: but whatg is being promised ?
asciilifeform: the confidentiality of $magicsrc, presumably
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: this release paradigm has the advantages that 1. permits us to control binaries, which means stuff like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834888 (which i'm very much impressed with, btw) ; 2. permits to reserve some interest for the author, because the strategic thinking over at minigame is that we'll want client competition (from skinning all the way to all the way) and remuneration by installs (hence all that hash dance in
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: 3. very clearly quashes the idiocy of rms-ism AND ers-ism ("open source" bla bla), and makes the strong political statement that indeed there is a difference between nose breathers and mouthbreathers and so on.
mircea_popescu: now, do you dispute that it permits control of the released binaries ?
asciilifeform: same way as questions of compensation are currently handled in l1 -- word of honour
mircea_popescu: but i mean... lookit, the author will make a static binary ; and who the fuck is going to make a drepper systemd thing ?
mircea_popescu: so then ? is this not a gain ?
asciilifeform: what is gained from having there exist a drepperized systemd thing ? or what am i missing
mircea_popescu: dude. situation 1, as currently : you release code, mp like an idiot compiles it on ubuntu, jnow your code exists as a drepper mockery of itself. as far as the machine can tell, you asciilifeform are an idiot.
mircea_popescu: situation 2, as contemplated : you release a binary, which mp like an idiot runs, and that's that. the machine no longer has cause to think alf's an idiot.
asciilifeform: for all i know, somewhere there exists a d00d who tried to build e.g. trb on a vax. and thinks asciilifeform is idjit, because it dun go. how's that skin off my back.
mircea_popescu: do you not care about the machines AT ALL ?!
mircea_popescu: they too are someone's children, you know.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: releasing binaries does not create this guarantee. even static elf, when put on a box where linus et al (or his successor) see it fit to subtly change the abi, will bomb, and not necessarily immediately. and i'ma still 'be idiot'
mircea_popescu: we're not in the business of guarantee.
asciilifeform: sure, but i gotta point out that the proposed win from distributing bins, is illusory.
asciilifeform: the sad folx in microshit-land feel this on their skins ~daily
trinque: you use bins currently, whenever bootstrapping a compiler
asciilifeform: trinque: this is to be seen as ~open problem~, not 'fact of life'
trinque: the open problems are facts of life today
asciilifeform: trinque: i fully expect that when we finally get the hell off c , there'll be no moar of 'distributing bootstrap bins'
mircea_popescu: really ?!
trinque: meanwhile there may be place for a solution better than "go use satan's gcc / gentoo livecd / etc to bootstrap
mircea_popescu: why the fuck not ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because it is a wholly unnecessary point of weakness.
mircea_popescu: i have to fucking compile every thing the 9000th time, i can't just put binary images on my 9001th rockchip ?!
mircea_popescu: nobody does this ; you don't either.
mircea_popescu: "sure, ima totally take 88 hours to emerge world, AGAIN"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you not see a diff b/w bins that were built under your control, and those where not ?
trinque had the cuntoo builder set aside bins for exactly this reason
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but these cotemplated here are built under control, of the only human invoplved in the relationship!
mircea_popescu: that's why i'm not fucking concerned of "l1 leaks". who the fuck are they going to leak TO ? the goats ?
trinque: and then asked ave1 for binary-reproducible gcc as the logical next step
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if 'who leak to, goats?' then why spend even a penny on effort to pass around srcballs 'in confidence' ?
trinque: process might be to have l1 build, gossip about the hashes of build they produced, at which point who cares who built, that's the item
asciilifeform: that's asciilifeform position nao -- i'ma post whatever, because why exactly not. FG src and schem is public, etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because of the human element involved.
mircea_popescu: and no, you've not published phuctor, nor liked the idea. shall i quote you or can you quote yourself ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: earlier in this thread i did shed some light re why.
mircea_popescu: nevermind "shed some light". the point fucking remains, as long as secrets are kept secrets are kept, what the fuck.
mircea_popescu: for all you know, BingoBoingo hooked up the kvm while you slept and mod6 read your postgres code and is still laughing.
mircea_popescu: yet somehow ~there~ you see why this is not much of a concern.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i suspect the folx who stole phuctor v.1 and v.2 src discovered, and prolly not much surprise to anybody else, phuctor is not a fully automatic mechanism. it requires asciilifeform's hands , applied on fairly regular basis, to function correctly. sorta like phf's logtron, for instance.
mircea_popescu: this is no sort of life, incidentally. it's what the old "engineering" used to be, "construct complicated looms that are friable and hard to maintain so as to have an eat."
asciilifeform: aha, with the steam valves.
mircea_popescu: but even that aside, i still don't see wtf is wrong with "we'll produce sane binaries instead of waiting for whatever shit-kit rando luser has to spit out whatever it does".
mircea_popescu: seems altogether an improvement of overal object code being run.
asciilifeform: the other pertinent distinction is that phuctor is not meant as a building block to use inside other systems. pretty much whole rationale for asciilifeform's refusal to publish whole thing, is specifically to prevent/delay such attempts at use.
asciilifeform: it is specifically ~not~ meant to be modified and used as building block by folx who aren't asciilifeform .
mircea_popescu: but clowns! boiling oil! etc!
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, how do we "control binaries" though?
phf: (my logotron has not been that way since the fateful burning man of 2 years ago, now "maintenance" involves adapting to changing landscape of e.g. freenode, etc.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe that so far, at least as visible from my tower, i've succeeded in this. whereas if i had distributed the whole kit in february of 2016, to kako et al, chances are that wouldn't.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well because say mocky does the release. ima frown if his release sucks, and he doesn't want that ; and his toolchain is to be expected better than literally rando camwhore's, "i dunno how kleopatra works". neh ?
diana_coman: yes, but how do you even know that the binary he releases is really the code he deeded?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but i ~didn't propose that~ in 2016, either, did i.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman you see the code he deeded and see can't reproduce. so now you two have something to talk about
mircea_popescu: which, i'm told, is the true basis of all happy marriages.
asciilifeform: as it currently stands, nobody can reproduce ~any bins.
diana_coman: well, if he releases for windows, who the fuck see can't reproduce
diana_coman: and asciilifeform was faster
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
mircea_popescu: i didn't make this world ; i'm just trying to live in it.
asciilifeform: the other pertinent fact is that we don't have 'eternal' bins until we have a pinned-down kernel, and the latter requires pinned-down iron.
mircea_popescu: and yes, reproducible builds ~WILL~ happen. but guess what ? if and only if something actually depends on it.
asciilifeform: and we dun have iron-makin' yet.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman note that "binary identity" is not even necessary a premise. you can go "hey shithead, why the fuck are you linking dynamic mysql when there's been a static one for five years". or w/e.
mircea_popescu: ~something to talk about~. it can be many things, and most not even contemplable at the onset.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the correct pill re 'dynamic' is simply to cut the dynamic loader nonsense out of cuntoo once and for all.
asciilifeform: try 'dynamicing' and yer bin simply won't run.
mircea_popescu: and the correct pill re understanding is to cut the examples out once and for all!
mircea_popescu: wtf, i was giving an example.
diana_coman is going to think some more on this
mircea_popescu: and also, consider : eulora client is ~definitionally~ for all comers. these people won't run your toolchain anyway.
asciilifeform: reproducible bins are The Right Thing, but it is impossible to explain ~why~ outside of the context of hand-auditability.
asciilifeform: sorta why asciilifeform pushed ave1 to cut down the gnat libs.
mircea_popescu: there's no need to explain anything to anyone outside these here walls.
mircea_popescu: nor will there ever be.
asciilifeform: speaking of 'explain' in ~your head~, not to hypothetical heathens
mircea_popescu: the correct reaction re explanations is ~that the subject aspiring move inside the walls~, nothing else.
asciilifeform: how the fuck do i even say обосновать in engl
asciilifeform: 'explain' is muchly the wrongest possible word
asciilifeform: the desired word is 'to put on solid foundations'
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with that.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly tangentially, have you ever been tempted to distribute eulora as a physical device ?
mircea_popescu: not only -- danielpbarron did this!
asciilifeform: ( before laughing -- consider, the 'games console' people came to this train stop long ago, in 1980s. because really that's the only way to actually deliver on the demand of 'fully static, depends on no variables under control of outsiders ' )
mircea_popescu: then quit doing it, sadly enough.
asciilifeform: not being euloraist, asciilifeform does not know why he quit -- was it because he ran out of iron feedstock ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno specifically ; im not sure he ever said.
asciilifeform: people like to laugh at nintendo, but that's what the actual hard-engineering solution to the problem of dynamicism looks like. e.g. FG src ~will~ run on every FG, and if in any case it is found not to, ~that unit~ is defective and to be immediately replaced. just like nintendo that wouldn't run 'mario XVIII' or whatnot.
Mocky: xbox game bought today will run on every xbox. no requirement to hook up to the net and get updates.
asciilifeform: Mocky: i wouldn't put it past microshit to fuck up even this. but in principle yes.
mircea_popescu: i am surprised this is so.
asciilifeform: it's more or less the 1 and only thing console maker promises to the buyer. ( otherwise buyer would buy a comp )
Mocky: ^zackly
mircea_popescu: also the first promise microsoft kept, to my knowledge
Mocky: you'll get games that will always work, for next n years when next console version comes out
mircea_popescu was always spiteful of the boxen, never bought never liked, never socialized with the console kids etc.
mircea_popescu: Mocky ohhh, so it's not ~every xbox~, it's ~every thisbox~.
mircea_popescu: ok, like that.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'll admit that i'm utterly innocent of consolism, with the exception of 1 occasion where i purchased an ancient 'virtual buy' to cut, with hacksaw, apart for the optics
asciilifeform: but i grasp the general principle.
mircea_popescu: me too, but i didn't like the sort of crowd it created. years later i read what zappa had to say about disco crowd, almost exactly the same sentiment.
asciilifeform: 1980s nintendos , fed their old cartridges, still work today. ( and when not work -- there are even folx to repair'em. ) i had colleague who had an entire room of these.
mircea_popescu: anyways, the 90s, who even remembers.
mircea_popescu: console ~= people-lite./
asciilifeform: well yes, comps-lite for people-lite
asciilifeform: but point is, they were 'embedded system', 'all that is mine, i carry with me, said the snail'
mircea_popescu: btw, you know the beaches here are full of hermit crabs ?
mircea_popescu: those guys upgrade the iron!
phf: mircea_popescu: playstation was/is backwards compatible, i'm not sure about xbox, could also be
asciilifeform: aha, mircea_popescu earlier posted some serious crabs
mircea_popescu: phf a ok.
Mocky: newer xbox will play older xbox games provided you get "online update"
asciilifeform: observe that some comp makers tried to maintain similar promise to customers -- whole reason why crapple outlived the 1990s, they spent astonishing effort on transparently emulating first their obsolete 68k , then ppc
mircea_popescu: let me tell you something about the crabs, i found fascinating last i was getting a beach blowjob. so, they all move in ~same direction, as far as eye can see, thousands of them. and as you say, right, "all that is mine i carry with". now, if they happen to run into some food, they'll stop a little, have a little, MOVE ON. they make 0 attempt to ~carry the food~. or even search for it.
asciilifeform: for the most part, 1980s crapple soft ~actually ran~ on the ppc iron. and for a few yrs into their intel product line, ppc proggies -- also ran !
asciilifeform: ( then -- change of management -- and not . )
mircea_popescu: turns out that the most carrying animal is also the least carry-concerned. wouldn't you expect snail has saddle bags for the shell ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as i understand they ain't ants, they are wired for 'food is to be looked for in immediate vicinity, when hungry'. think 'grasshopper', not 'ant', in aesopian terminology.
mircea_popescu: half the aftermarket for fucking rv's ("wouldn't it be great if we regressed 10mn years ?!") is pouches of all sorts of kinds.
asciilifeform: people aren't exactly entirely not hermit crabs... outside of sea divers, orbiters, etc we generally don't carry oxygen around, but rather expect to find it in immediate surrounding like the crab expects his food.
mircea_popescu feels the urge to include "- the human animal is a beast that dies and if he's got money he buys and buys and buys and I think the reason he buys everything he can buy is that in the back of his mind he has the crazy hope that one of his purchases will be life everlasting!—Which it never can be… " for the pleasure of future readers.
asciilifeform: '...Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal...' etc
mircea_popescu: such a bitcoin advertisement, that thing.
asciilifeform: lacking an actual bitcoin , did not stop folx from playing pretend, naturally.
asciilifeform: just as 'voodoo from a distance' pre-dated the ballistic rocket etc.
Mocky: revisiting upstack, why share secret code with l1? to keep author honest re: binaries, have conversation if something seems off?
mircea_popescu: you have no idea what the crab expects. so the hermit crab, yes ? it has no lungs. nor does it have fish gills. what it has is a sort of spider-like book things ; and they need to be wet, but in air. in water--drowns. if dried -- asphyxiates. talk about evoluted tech.
mircea_popescu: Mocky yes ; and to provide ~some~ recourse to the herd.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we, also, expect some wet in air. hence why mircea_popescu in cr not in sahara.
mircea_popescu: but really, to capture ~all~ the benefit of code sharing, with none of the downsides.
mircea_popescu: these are people ~you actually want~ to read your code. heck, you'd pay them, if possible.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i liked sahara air. did not like landscape at all, desert's fucking depressing, but anyways.
Mocky: maybe share only with those who have specific interest / aligned interest
mircea_popescu: and i suppose this is where i insert an important distinction, the lack of which perhaps informed most of alf's earlier protests : provided l1 has code asdiscussed, there are two, very strictly distinct, leaks. 1. is when x guy in lordship shares it with y guy not in lordship. 2. is when x guy in lordship ~publishes~, which is to say, shares with ~unspecified~ outsiders.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: with hygrometer at 80% mark where i sit, i would also like some sahara air. but prolly not for perma-habitation.
mircea_popescu: type 1 is very different from type 2 ; it's perhaps how you train a slave, or how you make a friend, or whatever. type 2 is very ~visible~.
mircea_popescu: Mocky i don't imagine it's a firm "all l1 absolutely or no deal". it was just phrased exemplarily.
mircea_popescu: eg http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834975 and yet the world's not come to an end.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:01 mircea_popescu: ave1 lobbes spyked http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/yTjUg/?raw=true
diana_coman: my understanding of it so far is that code is made accessible to l1 only i.e. not delivered to each personally and requiring a stamp or something
mircea_popescu: how do you mean ?
mircea_popescu: if it's deeded it's deeded, you don't have to look if you don't feel like looking.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, exactly; it was for Mocky's Mocky> maybe share only with those who have specific interest / aligned interest
mircea_popescu: (i suppose you technically have to keep it around, if it happens you're stuck with somethign else you want in a bundle, but anyways)
mircea_popescu: the sticky issue of arbitrarily excluding some people from l1 in this sense is that why didn't you a) speak up during http://trilema.com/2018/the-rivers-of-blood-article-or-the-lordship-list-fifth-year/ and b) why wasn't whatever problem you saw remedied.
diana_coman: basically the specific interest is not code's author - he deeds it and then who is interested and in l1 looks at it
mircea_popescu: it is after all a ~managed~ process, and misgivings should be aired rather than festered anyways.
diana_coman: I honestly don't see why would it be a problem to share with x but not with y in l1
mircea_popescu: as long as you have a good answer should y ask.
mircea_popescu: if the answer is "you're a poopyhead", it'll have to be somehow resolved, neh ?
asciilifeform: i guess my problem is that i can't picture any end of this road that doesn't resemble ck-kpss and 'senate intelligence committees' etc.
mircea_popescu: i thought those were mostly the result of widespread illiteracy in the ss.
mircea_popescu: have lotta "senators" who can't read, end up with a publicly funded cliffnotes agency.
asciilifeform: 1 problem , i suspect, is that keeping secrets is a ~pleasurable~ and addictive dope, and very often becomes a satisfying but entirely pointless substitute for actual work
mircea_popescu: (which, contrary to all the pretense, is 100% what cia/bia/mia/fuckwhatia IS)
asciilifeform: ( recall phf's story of 'cipherpunks culture' )
mircea_popescu: so all the better, we're looking for more ways to kill the few remaining survivors anyway.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, tbh I'm seeing it less and less as a "keep secrets" thing
mircea_popescu: man should be given as much length of rope to hang self with as wants.
diana_coman: it's true it was worded with that hook in it and I bit on it first for sure but I'm reading it more and more as "we make it public; but what public is there outside l1??"
asciilifeform: even dope has a place, if you're a bomber pilot and flak killed your navigator, his assistant, and entire gun crew, and you're on the 71st hour of flying the somehow still-winged wreckage home , then yes, take the pill
mircea_popescu: i suppose this is not an undefensible read.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is precisely because i do not see a public outside of l1, that i regard the idea of 'l1-only publications' as in most cases wrongheaded
asciilifeform: i do not buy cockroach repellents, because my house has no cockroaches.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman on re-read, i agree, suboptimal wording on my part (owing, principally, to lack of terminology)
mircea_popescu: o btw... hey Mocky ever considered moving to uruguay ? it's cheaper ; and BingoBoingo could sure use some company.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, hm, I don't follow/think it's an apt metaphor there
Mocky: what if someone in l1 wants to one day make eulora client, has access to src of all clients to date. If it was me in l1 and it were another who was client author, I think I would hesitate to make my own client
asciilifeform: diana_coman: idea being, secrets have a place, if i did not believe this i would not have any interest in crypto. but their place is ~where must~, not ~wherever possible~
mircea_popescu: Mocky why wouldn't you just act like a sane human being and tell them, "hey, i'd like to participate / work on this project."
mircea_popescu: you can manage, can;t you ?!
diana_coman: asciilifeform, it's not about "seekrit"
diana_coman: Mocky, do you mean that l1 basically are sort of locked out of making their own client because the more logical thing to do would be to collaborate with existing author?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is possible that i misread the entire thread, but my understanding was that it was about considering the idea of no longer defaulting to open publication of e.g. cuntoo
asciilifeform: which strikes me as , to put it subtly, batshit
mircea_popescu: diana_coman no, he means he spent 20 years with the retards, ended up soaking in inept notions about "intellectual property"
asciilifeform: i dun actually have any problem with idea of trade secret, where mircea_popescu & diana_coman keep their server to themselves under pillow etc.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, server is quite a different story from client
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu pointed out, i do same thing on numerous occasion
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wasn't proposing this be a default. too soon for that, in any case. i was proposing this may have merit & utility.
asciilifeform: it doubtless has merit, in selected cases.
diana_coman: at any rate, atm I'd have even more nightmares with server under my pillow!!!
asciilifeform: when the win from keeping out the heathens justifies the very real expense of keeping the cards to your chest
mircea_popescu: i still don't see what this expense is to be here.
mircea_popescu: other than deedbot storage bill and some minimum administration of pleas, "hey, he published my java on malbolge.com mocksite"
asciilifeform: even considering machine cycles to cost 0 -- the expense is psychological, of introducing promisetronics ( and , inescapably, doubt ) where it does not absolutely necessarily belong. but i risk repeating self.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, tbh I keep thinking that I'd rather have at least someone in l1 signing a binary before I run it but I'm not even sure that makes sense atm without imposing therefore on l1 to build the binary
mircea_popescu: i still don't know what promise is supposede to have been made!
mircea_popescu: diana_coman you can ask for whatever you'd ask, neh ?
mircea_popescu: the usual eulora client luser won't ask for anything before runnign any binary they can get hands on.
mircea_popescu: twice, just in case.
diana_coman: certainly; but eulora server hashes thing already selects some binaries only, no?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe this is not evident, but there's a large difference between client and server in a mmorpg. here discussed is client, equivalent of browser in phuctor-netuser relationship
mircea_popescu: diana_coman it does, yes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think i actually grasp this
asciilifeform: ( if player can see the server, it is same as seeing all of the deck in card game )
diana_coman: so would it accept any binary? a binary signed by at least 1 person in l1?
mircea_popescu: just about. games need secrets sqn.
asciilifeform: of course.
asciilifeform: ( i could picture a game that can survive players seeing the server, e.g. networked 'doom', but not all can )
mircea_popescu: diana_coman entirely my arbitrary call. i'll put whatever strings in there i put, and well... what can you do.
diana_coman: I suspect for fun eulora can even sell 1 secret every 10 years and it won't hurt much, lol
mircea_popescu: heck, it lets people sample it every day, what. they've so far discovered so very much... lol.
Mocky: could have a special item in game that will spit out a secret once per day, if you can figure out how to use it...
mircea_popescu: oh, we do.
mircea_popescu: multiple.
Mocky: *was reference*
diana_coman: I thought of Sheckley's Ask a Foolish Question but it might be just me
mircea_popescu: i'm millitantly illiterate.
diana_coman: so go ane improve ye young man! uhm, old, I forgot it's me the youngun
Mocky: was reference to eulora item I read about in the logs: http://logs.minigame.biz/2015-08-08.log.html#t05:20:40
lobbesbot: Logged on 2015-08-08 05:20:40: <mircea_popescu> there's even bezzle magic goldbags
mircea_popescu: that just gives you some dosh.
diana_coman: there's the golden goose too! and for that matter there was that "pay the oracle to give you answers" event for all the good it did
mircea_popescu: ahahah yeah. and imo did plenty of good, convinced me i'm a great poetastre!
mircea_popescu: Mocky you ever read my other sheckley rewrite btw ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this was the guy with the hour, wans';t he ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was. and '9000' other tales.
Mocky: which was that?
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, entirely forgotten in his home country, but cult hit in former su world, where in fact he lived his last yrs
Mocky: oh yes, that was good. but i never read the original
mircea_popescu: uncharacteristically close to original, even has same ending. i just cleanned up the science a little.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835051 << to continue on this : the whol.e fucking STRENGTH, of both mytyical-lisp and mythical-emacs (not the objects at any point extant, but the imaginary figments in the wide eyed userbase's minds) was specifically that ... wait for it... does the exact same thing, keeps binary of "world" around, saves time thereby.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:31 mircea_popescu: i have to fucking compile every thing the 9000th time, i can't just put binary images on my 9001th rockchip ?!
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I enjoyed his stories during those 2-3 years when I read almost only SF, 16-18 or there about; when I re-read now I kept getting annoyed because I keep finding it starts well and then sort of veers into what he'd like the world to be rather than what it is
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i see binaries as a cache for src . ( exactly in fact how emacs sees it. ) and thereby i have approx same interest in downloading and running bins built by ~others~ , as in stuffing food they have pre-digested somehow into my own gut, bypassing mouth
mircea_popescu: poor esthlos , he'll have to read all this
mircea_popescu: AND THEN SAY WHAT IT WAS ABOUT
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is common problem in fiction
diana_coman: asciilifeform, for some more than for others
BingoBoingo: On this sunny pleasantly warm alt-January day I went for a walk and returned to OMG logs
mircea_popescu: Mocky btw i was serious about uruguay. you ever thought of travel ?
Mocky: i've been meaning to learn spanish. they got cute girls there?
mircea_popescu: so i hear.
Mocky: def not wanting to move to china, lol
asciilifeform: Mocky: they got'em nearly errywhere. in roughly geometrically increasing proportion to distance from usa...
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo do you have a guestroom/bed anything btw ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he has a http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/06/26/and-then-there-was-light/ . definitely looks to have room for sleeping bag.
Mocky: asciilifeform, not everywhere if you don't see cute in asian or african
mircea_popescu: i thought you were black!
Mocky: white onthe inside!
asciilifeform: Mocky: troo, they dun have'em in the ocean either, mostly , unless you like fucking dolphin
mircea_popescu: Mocky how about this, you pick two weeks this month/next, i'll pick up your airfare, BingoBoingo will set you up, and you can go hang out in uruguay.
asciilifeform admits that he dun think of africa as a destination
mircea_popescu: heck, ima even buy you steaks.
mircea_popescu: think of it as a minigame crimping.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo do you have a guestroom/bed anything btw ? << I have a place to put a surface for guest accomodations
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo do you like the idea of hosting or should i include an airbnb in his vacation package.
BingoBoingo: I can host a few nights, but this is a bit cramped for a two week stay.
mircea_popescu: alright.
BingoBoingo: But I am available for guided tours
mircea_popescu: lol. from beerhall to beerhall ?
asciilifeform had a+++ guided tour by BingoBoingo
Mocky: sounds like an adventure, let me consider
BingoBoingo: Well, from barrio to barrio "This is old graffiti" "This is recent graffiti"
mircea_popescu: Mocky consider, consider.
Mocky: correction, let me consider how i can make it happen
mircea_popescu: lol what is involved in that ?!
mircea_popescu: they give vacations where you work, like everywhere else, don't they ?
Mocky: they do, but gotta coordinate with other rowers inthe galley
mircea_popescu: well when you're done with that coordinate with BingoBoingo for an airbnb or w/e for the relevant interval and there you go.
mircea_popescu , with 40 (rounded) years' experience in disrupting other people's lives!
Mocky: lol
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> i've been meaning to learn spanish. they got cute girls there? << Here we have them in most colors except African/Asian/Indian. The taller ones usually show up December/January
mircea_popescu: and on that note, off to town. laters!
Mocky: enjoy
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834927 << ack. Closely following thread from $saltmines (will read gpggram once I return to key)
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: thoughts plox! (and i specifically want everyone to say at least an ack, so let's page asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo danielpbarron diana_coman hanbot lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque )
lobbes bbl
asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu once suggested something not entirely dissimilar .
asciilifeform: really oughta be improved, to add entropy from arse clenching also!
shinohai: I think I'll order a couple and get on those experiments forthwith
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/07/fractured-us-government-indicts-22-russians-in-absentia-while-chief-executive-makes-progress-in-us-russia-cooperation/ << Qntra - Fractured US Government Indicts 22 Russians In Absentia While Chief Executive Makes Progress In US-Russia Cooperation
mircea_popescu: basically they're negrating people for not being in #usgovt now ?
mircea_popescu: copying #trilema is not much of a policy, yo!
mircea_popescu: what, ustardia has a history beyond the now ?
asciilifeform: see e.g. http://qntra.net/2018/03/nine-citizens-of-iran-given-the-honour-of-inclusion-in-usg-fbis-wanted-list/ , or the chinese derping in '16, and prior, endless rerun of same old film
BingoBoingo: "Do you have the time?" "Sure we have now, that's all the time we need"
mircea_popescu: !!rated davout
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated davout 5 at 2016/05/17 03:24:29 << his lordship the master of common pleas.
asciilifeform: !#seen davout
a111: 2018-04-14 <davout> should have synced by the end of next week
mircea_popescu: !!rate davout 1 he used to be a bigshot.
mircea_popescu: !!rated jurov
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated jurov 5 at 2016/05/17 03:25:03 << his lordship the lord treasurer.
mircea_popescu: !!rate jurov 1 he used to be a bigshot.
mircea_popescu: anyone recall that line btw ?
mircea_popescu: !!rated Framedragger
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated Framedragger 4 at 2017/04/15 14:15:10 << His Lordship the Lord Scanner
mircea_popescu: !!rate Framedragger 1 he used to be a bigshot.
mircea_popescu: !!rated shinohai
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated shinohai 3 at 2017/04/15 14:13:48 << The Right Honorable Baron Titsbare
mircea_popescu: !!rate shinohai 1 he used to be a bigshot.
asciilifeform: jurov incidentally is doing good work for pizarro fiat-wrangling apparatus
shinohai: What, no enemy rating?
mircea_popescu: i kinda lost track of him myself ; but plox to maintain the wot in good working order from own pov.
mircea_popescu: shinohai what's that ?
shinohai: nada
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2012/the-roaring-twenties/ << "Who is this guy?" "This is Eddie Bartlett." "How were you hooked up with him?" "I... I guess I've never figured it out." "What was his business?" "He used to be a big shot."
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834977 << if the goal is client competition, perhaps this is indeed a S.MG matter. I say this from the somewhat unique position of being a member of l1 who also plays and sometimes hacks the client
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:01 diana_coman: mircea_popescu, there is of course the fact that l1 is neither for life nor perhaps yet all that difficult to get in and out - I don't know whether this is a l1 matter or a s.mg board matter
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835118 << never had a taker, and then the recipe stopped working. I could get back into it with a less pretty debian, which is what I'm currently using for Eulora
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 16:51 mircea_popescu: i dunno specifically ; im not sure he ever said.
mircea_popescu: ah, right, the damn moving sands.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron anyway, the goal isn't specifically client competition. but it seems to me it's a necessary possibility.
mod6: evenin', gonna step through these logs here.
mod6: Ok well, I'm all caught up here.
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1834927 << ack. There are certain projects that I can see the benefits of this. There are others where I can see it doesn't fit.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 15:44 mircea_popescu: thoughts plox! (and i specifically want everyone to say at least an ack, so let's page asciilifeform ave1 ben_vulpes BingoBoingo danielpbarron diana_coman hanbot lobbes mod6 phf spyked trinque )
mod6: From the earlier discussion, I tend to see a lot of points from all sides. And quite an interesting discussion. I've been thinking on it all day.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought of 1 far-conveyor item where i actually had it in my notes 'to be for l1 encyclical only' -- the shortwave repeater
mircea_popescu: and for the exact sort of reason, neh ?
mod6: I've been trying to see how this doesn't end up with a bunch of finger-pointing once someone's source code is inevitably leaked. (If it can happen, it will happen.)
asciilifeform: for the obvious reason, aha.
mod6: When given the prospect of asking someone in L1 to hold long-term, or indefinite secrets as opposed to short-term secrets, it gets much harder to evaluate the trust or risk. One can not predict
mircea_popescu: mod6 we have the only instrument known to man of productive fingerpointing.
mod6: what may happen in the future; trust between two or more people might not be the same as it is today.
mod6: Well, my fear is that: Lord X encypts $src_code, to {a,b,c,d} ; as was said before, it would be impossible to tell if $src_code was leaked by X, or a,b,c or d. (This was stated earlier too).
mircea_popescu: consider the case at hand. i dunno if you've read the proposed protocol etc, but suppose it happens with euclient. so recognized owner creates a new set of binaries (i dunno, moves a class around say) and i use the new hashes for server, and so the leaker gets what exactly ? client for a server that won't talk to it ?
mod6: Another scenario that I was kind of thinking about is where: Lord X encrypts $src_code, drops it into deedbot, and $src_code is encyptped to {a,b,c,d}. Upon a future date, person 'a', is drummed out and neg-rated. Nothing stops person 'a' from still decypting that $src_code with his key, neg-rated or not. This is not wholly differnt than before... just saying that there's no "backsies".
mircea_popescu: of course something keeps them.
mircea_popescu: what, there's no life after lordship ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ( admittedly i haven't read the referenced item ) what's to stop client from sending to server the old hashes ?
mircea_popescu: this isn't some sort of banana republic, where it's either go president or get shot.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, it'll require complacent users.
mircea_popescu: not ~stop~ per se.
asciilifeform: for some reason i thought that the thing was build specifically to be agnostic of client (i.e. so long as they speaks the published protocol, all clients work)
asciilifeform: i.e. like irc and unlike aol
asciilifeform: or, more on point, specifically in contrast to 'warcraft' and similar muds where vendor plays whackamole with 'cheating' clients
mircea_popescu: not really. there's a mechanism to permit the user to check his client against what it tells the server
mircea_popescu: considering there's literal billions involved...
mircea_popescu: i dunno, i wouldn't use any online banking thing that didnt'; checksum
mod6: Another thing, I was thinking about was: Perhaps shipping the source to all L1, maybe let people request this themselves.
mod6: I'd like to say, that I don't think that it's an over all /bad/ idea, I'm just not sure if it's a good idea either. I think this might just be a case-by-case basis.
mod6: I would like for TMSR~ to retain it's own code; for many reasons, including preventing other possible fraud and snake-oil salesmen... a variety of things have been written about on the subject in here actually.
asciilifeform: mod6: my original disagreement in $thread wasn't re 'sometimes gotta try to limit distribution to l1' -- it is very easy to think of cases where this is the obvious Right Thing -- but in re eulora client in particular, i still dun see what the eulora folx have to keep seekrit in the client ( i.e. what problem do 'heathens produce shoddy client' create, that ordinary pgp signature doesn't solve )
mod6: I'm not sure that we have the correct abilities to do such a thing at this time, at least on a policy based level.
asciilifeform: mod6: can you think of a fraudulent scenario that isn't handled by simple vtronics and actually requires seekrit coad ?
mod6: nope, but who knows. maybe someone finds a winner-takes-all-zero-day, to be used at time X.
mod6: and as far as the eulora client, maybe S.MG wants the source to remain closed, this is for them to decide.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. one guy puts in all the work to make the damned thing, and then some moron "forks" it.
mircea_popescu: drepperization, is a thing.
mod6: It seems like a burden to thrust these decisions upon the L1 however, should someone defect and leak the sensitive materials.
mircea_popescu: all that code SHOULD NOT have been shared. not with fucking red hat, not with fucking koch, not with fucking drepper and so on.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought the eulora model was 'proprietary server, 9000 clients' ?
asciilifeform: my understanding is that client is currently published ; how many shoddy heathen forks ?
asciilifeform: and why would the players prefer heathen shitfork to the orig
mircea_popescu: current client is pretty shitty.
mircea_popescu: for the same reason the lusers preferred gcc 5 to gcc 4.
mircea_popescu: and opera 2013 to 12.x
mircea_popescu: and so on.
asciilifeform: let's say that eulora becomes suddenly unspeakably popular , and lusers write 9000 sad clients. they're still forced to play by the game rules nailed down in the server, neh
mod6: I see this as even beyond the Eulora scenario, stretching out to any TMSR~ source; I just don't see a good way to solve it right now, other than being selective with who gets rights to see the $src.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeh.
asciilifeform: ftr i share in the traditional frustration ( which goes back to , yes, rms & the gpl folx ) where 'why should hitler get to use my proggy'. but imho it uncomfortably echoes that of the gurlz on arsebook etc, 'i want to write about my fucks but for ~everyone but mother~ to read'
mircea_popescu: im not sure that's a good controlling example.
mircea_popescu: i'm thinking more in the veins of, "really, you gave monkey ak ?"
mircea_popescu: seems human civilisation managed to mostly keep rifles out of the hands of children, potash out of the mouths of babes and so on.
asciilifeform: monkey had ak for quite a while -- e.g. the openly published fg design; but apparently monkey has atrociously poor aim
asciilifeform: hits, for the most part, only own foot. and other monkeys.
mircea_popescu: fg is not ak. fg is more like, sights, or something.
asciilifeform: to concretize -- what exactly might a malignant heathen do with eulora client ? make own idjit server to go with it ?
mircea_popescu: wait for someone to sink in the (not insiginificant) cost of fixing the code, "fork" it, market it, and essentially cash in on the op's work.
asciilifeform: heathens are , as i currently understand, so unspeakably stupid that 'stealing fixed code' is not to date ever observed, they re-break as soon as they touch. ( any heathens stole trb for the shitfork warz, other than funkenstein ? )
asciilifeform: sorta why i invoked fg as example -- recently i noticed a heathen who lifted the analogue scheme , but could not resist gluing it to the usual heathen whitener , because how could he resist.
mircea_popescu: what do you mean other than.
asciilifeform: the behaviour of the congentially-sad when encountering 'fixed' item is summarized in http://trilema.com/2014/what-happens-when-you-add-a-drop-of-sewage-to-a-bottle-of-fine-wine/#selection-175.0-179.465
asciilifeform: 'they cloink a coupla with the sledgehammer so as to break down the find into shards the size they can fit in a pocket, after which they stick it on their oxcart'
asciilifeform: i've yet to encounter the case where the result was in some way confusable with the original
mircea_popescu: yes, well, ideally this should be kept at a minimum. both the kloinking and the sharding.
asciilifeform: *congenitally-
mircea_popescu: and think in terms of confusable ~by whom~. as far as 50% or so of fetlife female moron population is concerned, they have "a master" or whatever in that vein.
mircea_popescu: because they're fucked in the head, and literally can not distinguish anything from anythning else.
asciilifeform: possibly this is the root of disagreement -- asciilifeform takes mircea_popescu's old warning of 'just say no to any dealings with the malignantly stupid poor'(tm)(r) to heart, doesn't deal with the '50%', doesn't need them for anything whatsoever
mod6: Anyway Gentlemen, I think that currently this comes down to: 1) "How much do I trust the man standing next to me?" and 2) What are the consequences should others betray and leak my valuable assets?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok, but you recall ye olde discussions re governance etc ?
asciilifeform: folx who are so 'confusable' that they cannot be persuaded, by carrot or stick, to at the very least check a pgp sig , are beyond redemption
mircea_popescu: redemption is not here contemplated.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 17:43 diana_coman: there's the golden goose too! and for that matter there was that "pay the oracle to give you answers" event for all the good it did
asciilifeform: unless, again, i misread , what's contemplated is to somehow make 'fetlife female morons' who won't pgp and won't drop winblowz etc use an authenticated piece of soft, somehow ( something that e.g. banks have not been able to accomplish )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not at all. people should be able to play a fucking game without necessarily understanding how the actual code works.
asciilifeform: no disagreement re this
mircea_popescu: that's the whole fucking point. not just of writing games, but of storytelling altogether, as a whole discipline reaching all the way to the core of substance. people's enjoyment of reading say http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835256 might be ~enhanced~ by a secure mastery of the writer's craft
a111: Logged on 2018-07-16 17:44 mircea_popescu: Mocky http://trilema.com/2014/the-hour-of-reckoning/
mircea_popescu: however, at the most basic level, literature must remain enjoyable for the barely literate.
asciilifeform: ( hence why asciilifeform did not say 'wtf, why you lot distribute binariola, why not post just src like trb ' )
mircea_popescu: well ok, so then what pgp signatures.
asciilifeform: of the client bin; and of the server ip (or how does player know that he is playing eulora and not obamalora )
mircea_popescu: they're all playing obamalora as it is anyway.
asciilifeform: my point was that if he's a monkey and can't or won't conceptualize the diff, he will play obamalora no matter what
asciilifeform: exactly
mircea_popescu: no argument there.
mod6: hmm.
asciilifeform: admittedly asciilifeform is not a eulorist, but i had a very positive picture of it as -- including other things -- a kindergarten teaching tool for 'fuck people but do biznis with keys' , 'pubkey is the soul', etc
asciilifeform: and the lack of reliance on magic/closed client is imho powerfully illustrative of the diff b/w eulora and heathen 'warcrafts'
mod6: it does work this way ^, must have key registered with the server to even log in.
Mocky: my understanding is minigame wants there to be 3rd party clients, but would want access to the src and be assured binary matches src. but if src fully available then good client gets forked so what incentive to write client?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note i'm not forbidding anyone from ~publishing~ their client.
lobbes: imo, the bar to actually 'playing eulora' is above that of monkey anyway (at least -right now- unless someone figures out the 'monetize the fetlife girls angle for eulora)
asciilifeform: Mocky: i grasp the argument, but must point out that all attempts to date to cudgel people into paying for software, have ended in tears ( usually for the cudgel-wielder )
mircea_popescu: lobbes things will change though.
asciilifeform bbl,meat
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is deeply not so. attempts to make people pay insane amounts always failed, and this has no relation to software whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: people will gladly pay reasonable sums for anything whatsoever.
lobbes: I could see someone creating a 'ecu casino' for the 'masses' indeed
lobbes: hm
mircea_popescu: it is however not the customer's problem that the fair price point for borland whatever is 0.0006 except borland can';t chage that because must be 9.95 or else visa monopoly throws a fit.
lobbes: this is a point
mircea_popescu: notice that ~even today~ there's solid market in "music cds". if you want i can photograph the people outside trying to sell their shiny "extrenos"
mircea_popescu: but at a buck a shot. not at 20 bux a shitty "album" cd.
mircea_popescu: lobbes consider the obvious example -- people will pay (but ~a few ecu~ sorta thing) to merely ~use~ an auction bot. they could just do that by fucking hand, what's to keep them.
mircea_popescu: except, life not being endless...
mod6: What if, you gave out the S.MG binary client, and along with it, an example client. Void of code that you would consider "trade secrets". This way people can use the example to get their own off the ground with the most minimal information required to do so?
mod6: Or am I being retarded here?
mircea_popescu: well, there's obviously a published server protocol, as well as the old client... these don't constitute ?
mod6: I figured, can't really help it with the old client. Was thinking maybe there is a new one in the works with some stuff that need not be open sores.
Mocky: asciilifeform, i dont' even see it as an issue of paying for software: the paying or not doesn't need to differ from the case where minigame writes the official client
mircea_popescu: Mocky this even make snese to you btw ?
Mocky: this makes sense to me. the only thing i have against it is asciilifeform and mod6 argument about the burden of keeping secrets. while I don't see the proposed method as actually burdensome, i see the argument in the general case
mircea_popescu: i suppose. though honestly, what is it, don't decrypt the deed, it'll sit there.
mircea_popescu: i would expect it is actually a ~gain~ if one discovers he's leaking secrets unwillingly.
Mocky: if in the case of a confirmed leak, pointed questions could be asked even of those who never so much as looked at it. and i'm not saying answering questions is a big burden, but alternately not being suspected in the first place could be considered a benefit
mircea_popescu: by whom ?
mod6: well, any defendant of such an accusation would have to ask Lordship to /believe/ they didn't do it; not sure how they would ask Lordship to /verify/ they are telling the truth.
Mocky: there's no way toknow, obviously. but if i wrote a client under this l1 confidence model, and it leaked not by me, i would suspect someone in l1... who else?
mircea_popescu: mod6 why would they have to ask anyone anything ? Mocky so you'd suspect. and ?
mircea_popescu: if your lunch were gone from your brown paper bag you wouldn't suspect me, you'd suspect someone who worked there. and ?
mod6: I'm saying in the instance of inquisition. I don't think there is any way to separate a willful liar from someone who lost control of their key.
mod6: Identity as such will be condemed, indeed.
Mocky: i don't see it as a problem for the client writer. to the contrary i would expect clients to get regular updates and older versions less useful relatively over time. but maybe asciilifeform doesn't care about eulora at all, why involve when only possible involvement 'suspected of leak'?
mircea_popescu: yeah but i mean... i dunno, sometimes i feel like i'm the only one who was ever 12. so you're at camp, and someone spread toothpaste on the teacher's moustache while he slept. so ?
Mocky: as example
mircea_popescu: Mocky well in thsi case, because the barrier to entry is a major destroyer of interest. maybe if he can read at cost 0 he reads and if he can read at cost epsilon, he doesn't.
mircea_popescu: people fuck more girls they find in their bed spread eagled than girls they have to say hello to.
mircea_popescu: which is why monogamy was even invented.
Mocky: this is true
mircea_popescu: otherwise, biologically, "never meet again" is the winning strategy.
mircea_popescu: anyway, it's altogether doubtful that this naive model of imperial "progress" ever applied to software. i don't expect lcients to become ever better over time.
Mocky: if shortwave repeater was in l1 confidence and one day i became l1, i wouldn't see having to keep that secret as a burden.
mircea_popescu: nothing else does.
Mocky: seems theres a general level of good enough, that's rarely hit first release
mircea_popescu: ok, but rarely improved upon past 2-3.
mircea_popescu: or i dunno, maybe you're the one guy who thinks need for speed only finally nailed the plot on installment 8.
mircea_popescu: and are already lining up for the 9th version of vin diesel being retarded from profile.
Mocky: if there turns out competition between clients, maybe i want to do something to get more market share
Mocky: or maybe not. i still have software from the 90's that I use on a daily basis, install straight from orig 90's cd
mircea_popescu: and i tend to play games from 20 years ago today still. which...
mod6: have fun, mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: no i didn't mean right now
mod6: oh :D
mod6: Maybe a "developer license" isn't a bad idea either. Could raise some capital, and constrain the source code to those who promise not to share it and who want/need it.
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