Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2018-07-11 | 2018-07-13 →
trinque: << I am racist against modulism, as long expressed and explicit in the script
a111: Logged on 2018-07-11 22:55 asciilifeform: trinque: lemme get this straight, your script does 0 with kernel modules ? expectation is that there ain't any ?
trinque: seems upon the man building the kernel for allcomers to justify himself, as my kernels are narrower
trinque: but aside that, pretty fucking cool you stood the thing up, as it was a scrape of my workbench into tarball and sig
trinque: not bad for running to a flight hours later
trinque: as for initramfs-ism, it has its place (i.e. embedded systems with peculiar root, squashfs + overlayfs or the like)
trinque: other than that, I'd be curious why the hell the kernel wasn't capable of pulling an adult root up itself. usually this is because the kernel was again, built for allcomers, or more specifically for linux users afraid of configuring a kernel (present company excluded, of course). this ends.
trinque: asciilifeform: looking forward to your feedback on the thing, which we'll work into a final product
asciilifeform: trinque: i have no prob with your 'cemented' approach to kernel, it is Right Thing; mine simply not caught up yet ( december 2017 build )
trinque has a kernel baking post coming soon, in response to PeterL
asciilifeform: in the end there is no compelling reason to have modulism on box where iron dev aint happening.
trinque: I do in fact have an initramfs tool also sitting on desk. portage makes it rather easy to blast ebuilds into an arbitrary chroot at install
trinque: so, can install busybox this way, user hand-rolls a script (perhaps from template), and this is as much initramfs as anyone oughta need
asciilifeform: 1 very useful thing, that we dun have yet, would be a mechanism for unerringly pointing out deadcoad in a given running kernel.
asciilifeform: i.e. 'this dun run, the pertinent iron aint there'
trinque: some kind of gcov thing?
asciilifeform: nah, simpler, would use existing mechanism that loads modules
asciilifeform: say, builds modular kernel once, then lsmod, parse output, then builds cemented kernel with same parts.
trinque: oh, this exists, and is going into my post
trinque: make localyesconfig
trinque: will take build machine's /proc/config.gz and cement
asciilifeform: that could be anyffing tho
asciilifeform: not necessarily strictly iron-bound minimum
asciilifeform: what you want is strictly lsmod output, as basis
trinque: err.. been a long day. it does respect what actually loaded
asciilifeform: i'ma bbl: bedtime
asciilifeform: goodnight trinque
trinque: thx for trying the item!
trinque: cya
mircea_popescu: incidentally... i can't fucking believe the 2010s failed to produce a pornstar named justine beaver.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, re ssh key, pizarro already has mine, just use that one; re box: I've read through the logs and in the end I'm still confused as to *what* is in there now - is it musltronic system or not?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-11 22:08 hanbot: << diana_coman that's a good point; added a note on said post. and y'know, you can just tell me directly, "hey, this is dumb, do x".
asciilifeform: diana_coman: entirely musltronic, made out of . i am preparing a summary of all changes just nao.
diana_coman: cool, will wait for the summary + access then
asciilifeform: trinque's gcc, btw, is exactly as was printed on the crate, x86_64-gentoo-linux-musl 4.9.4
asciilifeform: the 1 non-trinquian component is the kernel, which is bitwise identical to what is on 1) dulap 2) the primary box. fortunately kernel carries own libc, musltronicity dun affect it. but the trinquian kernel src and my original config is still there, as well as my config for the iron; it is possible for diana_coman to later build the kernel with trinque's gcc, what is needed is to transform my config so that all necessary modules
asciilifeform: are hardbaked into kernel. trinque as i understand is working on an automatic process for this.
asciilifeform: hey trinque , is it safe to delete 'cuntoo' dir ( contains copy of distfiles, etc, could free ~1G ) or does it get used ?
asciilifeform: 1) << make.conf ( originals and asciilifeform items marked )
asciilifeform: 2) << lilo.conf ( original preserved as lilo.trinque )
asciilifeform: 3) << that was actually used to build the whole orchestra;
asciilifeform: (3) contains 2 mistakes by asciilifeform re partition map; ergo , i wrote a 4) << << which reflects necessary changes to partition map ( and removes the console-via-rs232 that remained from trinque's orig experiment )
asciilifeform: trinque's original also does something i consider ugly, it allows lilo to refer to disks/partitions by 'uuid' rather than device path, imho this should not be done ( it resembles poettering's warcrime against nic device names, and makes hand-tuning needlessly difficult )
asciilifeform: ( i dun blame trinque , afaik this is default lilo behaviour nowadays ) but i fixed.
asciilifeform: 5) nic config is in /etc/conf.d/net and /etc/resolv.conf , if diana_coman wants to change the former for any reason plz talk to pizarro folk 1st
asciilifeform: 6) i emerged 2 proggies, 'app-misc/mc' (midnight commander) and 'usbutils' , which i needed during debugging.
asciilifeform: 7) FG are operating at /dev/ttyUSB0 and /dev/ttyUSB1
asciilifeform: 8) the kernel trinque's system ended up building, is preserved in /boot/bk . it boots, but dun see nic or FG, on account of rejecting modulism
ave1: Some thought about the zero footprint / minimal runtime image.
asciilifeform submitted comment re above, but i think filter ate it ?
asciilifeform: diana_coman ^
diana_coman: asciilifeform, it's on, you wrote it while I was writing mine and it got into the moderating queue
diana_coman: ah, you usually use your name so it's first time it saw your nick, hence -> moderating
asciilifeform: aa lol i forgot . diana_coman feel free to switch it.
asciilifeform: answr'd.
asciilifeform bbl,tea,waking up
asciilifeform: diana_coman: possibly i'm mistaken , will have to actually try the new vtool ( and whether it can be pressed with traditional vtron ) .
asciilifeform: diana_coman: lemme know if box functions as expected. you will prolly want to install ave1's gnat . but even prior to this, can proceed with emerging eulora deps , and see which ones work under muslism .
diana_coman: asciilifeform, will do; atm I'm gathering all the stuff from the log; wouldn't it make more sense next time to just send it together with access stuff? I get it that some parts were of public interest too but they can be discussed anyway, with ref to a paste of the stuff if needed
asciilifeform: diana_coman: remember, we are also helping trinque to perfect his cuntoo .
diana_coman: re vtools fwiw I pressed it fine with traditional vtron
diana_coman: yes, hence my "I get it that some parts were of public interest too but they can be discussed anyway, with ref to a paste of the stuff if needed "
asciilifeform: diana_coman: aite. do not hesitate to ask, if the purpose of particular change , or anything else, is unclear.
asciilifeform: i expect that trinque will find this thread to be of interest, when he comes back.
asciilifeform: ( afaik this is the first battlefield test of cuntoo. )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: at the risk of pedantry -- all of the pasted items, other than (4) , exist on your box's disk , exactly as pasted.
BingoBoingo waiting for a refrigerator to show up
diana_coman: asciilifeform, ok
BingoBoingo: Do my hands need to do anything to the box? Unplug things, etc?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: when diana_coman gives the signal that box is good to work, can remove kvm snakes and boot stick.
asciilifeform looking forward to building some cuntoo boxen for own experiments.
asciilifeform: hats off to trinque , pretty great item. ( as i understand , we will still need a troo tmsr tarballs mirror, and coupla other things. but it's a good start, 100% musltronic gentoo. )
asciilifeform: 1 of the things i'd like to do, supposing trinque hasn't yet already made it, is to replace the horrid gui-laden boot usb stick currently in pizarro bilge, with a cuntoo stick.
asciilifeform: but possibly this oughta wait for trinque's return and for the remaining fine-tunings to cuntoo .
asciilifeform: !!up brazilish
deedbot: brazilish voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: brazilish: who might you be ?
brazilish: the usual brazilian guy
asciilifeform: i wasn't aware that we had one ?
a111: Logged on 2018-07-04 19:41 mircea_popescu: brazilish considering how much you're worth atm, it'll be good enough for now. can always switch it out later.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, BingoBoingo access to box & config confirmed; FG on ttysUSB0 had a wobble at first and I don't understand why: I ran the stty -F /dev/ttyUSB0 115200 raw -echo -echoe -echok and then tried dd iflag=fullblock if=/dev/ttyUSB0 | hexdump -C but nothing came up; then I ran the stty on usb1 as well and tried again and it...worked; any idea wtf was that at first?
diana_coman: !!key brazilish
deedbot: Not registered.
diana_coman: nope, no such thing as usual brazilian guy
diana_coman: brazilish, register a key if you want to be any sort of person around here
asciilifeform: diana_coman: we'll have to ask BingoBoingo to open the lid and inspect the lights on both FG .
asciilifeform: possibly he has miswired one .
asciilifeform: or do i misread , and both now work ??
diana_coman: yes, now they both work, hence my wtf
asciilifeform: i have my box set to stty... both on boot, so i never observed this effect. possible quirk of the pl2302 driver. i recommend , as in any battlefield installation of FG, to carry out the s.nsa-recced tests.
asciilifeform: *pl2303
asciilifeform: i've operated up to 7 on 1 linux box simultaneously , without problems ( the linux usb tweak from section 2 of operating manual is required if using 3 or greater )
asciilifeform: ( above 7, pl2303 driver starts doing something odd, the boxes still work but several times slower )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes, I will certainly carry out the tests ofc but this was what I observed atm
asciilifeform: ( btw if anybody discovers a viable replacement for the pl2303 snake that dun cost an arm and leg and dun include flashable chips, i'd like to hear about it )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: ty for putting it in the log, i'd like to find the answer to the riddle.
BingoBoingo: On this box one of the FG cables is the blue guy that came with my personal FG, the other is the new style black snake
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: interesting. these are both chinese pl2303 , nominally identical.
asciilifeform: ( granted, nobody actually knows, these folx are fold of printing identical legend and keeping same vendor:usbid while fiddling something or other )
mod6: mornin'
asciilifeform: ohai mod6
BingoBoingo: Anyone care to guess what refrigerant is coursing through the new Panavox 100 liter fridge Carlos Gutiarrez just dropped off?
asciilifeform: ye olde classic freon ?!
asciilifeform: i.e. 'r-12' ??
BingoBoingo: Isobutane, R600a
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha
asciilifeform: srsly?!
BingoBoingo: Gotta love concrete building culture
mod6: nice
trinque: << this I did to allow building the system as a USB-attached external drive, which could later be plugged in as primary hd and still boot. recall I started my gentoo experiments with "infectious gentoo" as a target
a111: Logged on 2018-07-12 11:36 asciilifeform: trinque's original also does something i consider ugly, it allows lilo to refer to disks/partitions by 'uuid' rather than device path, imho this should not be done ( it resembles poettering's warcrime against nic device names, and makes hand-tuning needlessly difficult )
asciilifeform: aaah hah.
asciilifeform: interesting
asciilifeform: really oughta be toggleable imho.
mod6: ^ that'd be cool, then can have both ways
trinque: this and the number of cpus, and perhaps others as args, yes
trinque: << that dir is the infection vector, and builds packages so infection can be swift. packages can be deleted, and perhaps distfiles too if the user is going to keep them elsewhere (i.e. off box)
a111: Logged on 2018-07-12 11:24 asciilifeform: hey trinque , is it safe to delete 'cuntoo' dir ( contains copy of distfiles, etc, could free ~1G ) or does it get used ?
asciilifeform: trinque: i suspected , so i left it alone.
asciilifeform: diana_coman can delete if she needs the ~1GB .
asciilifeform: however must note that it contains with asciilifeform's mistakes ( see log ) .
asciilifeform: i left it as-is, in the interest of authenticity.
trinque: /cuntoo dir is what I continue to work on. vtronic portage will sit in there. when released, diana_coman can replace the whole /cuntoo dir with the final item
trinque: back on the bin-packages, these become much more interesting with a reproducible-build gcc. I understand ave1's to be very close, if not there already
trinque: (there are probably fixes also needed to the binpkg system, such that i.e. timestamps of the build are not in there, ruining bit-identity)
trinque: << mirror needed indeed. I have a pizarro box racked with giant platters for this
a111: Logged on 2018-07-12 13:32 asciilifeform: hats off to trinque , pretty great item. ( as i understand , we will still need a troo tmsr tarballs mirror, and coupla other things. but it's a good start, 100% musltronic gentoo. )
trinque: will need others, can't have too many
asciilifeform: ideally most , or all, public-facing cuntoo boxen, will offer mirror.
trinque: << indeed, and users ought to be able to build own, so we've got a clear chain of custody going straight back into classical gentoo
a111: Logged on 2018-07-12 13:36 asciilifeform: 1 of the things i'd like to do, supposing trinque hasn't yet already made it, is to replace the horrid gui-laden boot usb stick currently in pizarro bilge, with a cuntoo stick.
trinque: build here meaning run the script, not hand-roll
trinque: ave1: how far away is bit-identical build in your gcc?
asciilifeform: trinque: i was thinking, lilo oughta be able to be cured , to know what the hell it booted from on a given boot, and mount root there
asciilifeform: bios bootsector loader certainly gives this info
asciilifeform: the uuid thing would not be needed then.
a111: Logged on 2018-07-12 04:23 trinque: other than that, I'd be curious why the hell the kernel wasn't capable of pulling an adult root up itself. usually this is because the kernel was again, built for allcomers, or more specifically for linux users afraid of configuring a kernel (present company excluded, of course). this ends.
a111: Logged on 2018-04-06 21:27 asciilifeform: but in that case it can be debated whether he is still using 'the same machine' as he bought, or a 'new', africanized one
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: asciilifeform's old kernel consists of hand-selected modules, corresponding to dulap-III irons, config can be seen here,
mircea_popescu: (anyone ever looked into the deep piles of pantsuiticy surrounding that btw ? not just "Ubuntu - The leading operating system for PCs, IoT devices ..." on precisely 0% market share, but rather "Ubuntu philosophy - Wikipedia
mircea_popescu: Ubuntu (Zulu pronunciation: [ùɓúntʼù]) is a Nguni Bantu term meaning "humanity". It is often translated as "I am because we are," and also "humanity towards others", but is often used in a more philosophical sense to mean "the belief in a universal bond of sharing that connects all humanity".")
asciilifeform: and yes it will need to be trinqueized.
asciilifeform: lol zulu! i had nfi
asciilifeform: orig zulu had healthier expression of this 'shared', imho, with pointy sticks.
mircea_popescu: as fucking if a) africans and philosophy can be used in same sentence ; b) "translated as" is not a dead fucking giveaway of -style cultural appropriation and on and on.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-14 19:35 phf: madam blavatski and her followers did a lot of damage for years to come. it was literally in her writing that original meaning doesn't matter, as long as the translation sounds cool (there's a rationalization for why that somehow supposed to make sense)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, but these are the replacement zulu, hallucinated by autistic white boys to porn up the girl next door in their own imagination.
asciilifeform: i suppose they live next to the replacement indians & co.
mircea_popescu: original zulu were more in the vein of "machine gun ?!
a111: Logged on 2013-11-04 16:22 asciilifeform: to which the general replied - 'it wouldn't dare.'
asciilifeform: relatedly, asciilifeform not long ago went to a museum, which, among other items, had... spears, and halbergs (!) from u.s. civil war.
asciilifeform: both sides -- used.
asciilifeform: ( in the initial revv-up to the war, there were not enuff rifles to go around )
mircea_popescu: speaking of nothing in particular : anyone notice how four years ago we did a lot of issue ? all of us, me, alf, name it.
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 03:18 mircea_popescu: you know, you can write your whole thought in a single line, we do actually read long lines. no reason to break up your stuff.
mircea_popescu: apparently sanity is a ~behaviour~, dependent in actual expression upon the a) presence and b) understandment of proper, sanity-inducing tools.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform halberds you mean ? that's a particularly satisfying item to use. dunno if you ever held one, but it's a mainstay for purely meritous reasons. best weapon to stand guard with, for instance, it's satisfying in the way of warm tea.
asciilifeform: yes and yes.
asciilifeform: and satisfying to look at, even, asciilifeform never passes up a chance to visit a museum along the way that displays'em.
asciilifeform: one time saw array of landsknecht gear in chicago , was impressed.
mircea_popescu: that said, it was never very practical, not even in its heyday.
asciilifeform: dunno, the jp variant reportedly vehehery practical.
mircea_popescu: the only actual field aplication where it was state of art was disposing of armored folk fallen off horse.
mircea_popescu: somewhat of a narrow use.
asciilifeform: of horse ( at least in jp variant ) also.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform jp item not halberd variant. jp item ~falx~ variant, as in the dacian weapon. very practical according to romans, either, feared the future romanians like no one else.
asciilifeform: 'naginata'
asciilifeform: i thought roman falx were a shorter thing
mircea_popescu: they adapted the falx for a siege weapon, but the original thing deployed against them / used by the dacians was a 2-3 m pole with a 30-60 cm blade cutting inside.
asciilifeform: ah hah so ~exactly same.
mircea_popescu: got under shields, was reportedly terrifying.
mircea_popescu: aand in today's dose of manilla humour,
mircea_popescu: as you might expect, chick's way fat, way older than she claims, and cutting pics in the way of the catfisher.
asciilifeform: wat's a catfisher ?
mircea_popescu: a catfisher is a fat woman that tries to manipulate the camera angle and crop tools in post-edit to seem less fat.
mircea_popescu: but by extension, anyone who tries to lie visually online.
asciilifeform: i guessed this much; but what's the 2nd step in their algo? say you fly'em in, then what.
mircea_popescu: something to do with the habit of catfish to bury in mud.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know what a long con is ?
asciilifeform: sure. but i only know about the kind with money.
mircea_popescu: tell me, and underline the distinction from short con.
asciilifeform: y'know, the 'grifter', who befriends old pensioner crone and gets her to sign over her will etc
mircea_popescu: your notions are poorly organized on the topic!
asciilifeform: possibly
mircea_popescu: a long con misdirects the victim towards a specific point ; a short con misdirects the victim without a specific point.
mircea_popescu: this is what drives the length difference : unspecific can't last.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> a catfisher is a fat woman that tries to manipulate the camera angle and crop tools in post-edit to seem less fat. << That's a fatfisher one step more offensive than mere catfishing
mircea_popescu: now, much in the vein of ; any interaction can be moved towards a long con. you simply take whatever the op says they want to happen, and use that as the misidrection point.
mircea_popescu: ie, she's going to try and get money ~before~ the flying in.
asciilifeform: makes sense.
asciilifeform: a la nigeria.
mircea_popescu: quite. those are "shortish longcons", basically.
mircea_popescu: long con open tender, because what's online for. ubuntu amirite.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo oh ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: It's an entire field. The hamplanets trying to appear as human sized is just one flavor.
mircea_popescu: pretty sure when originally introduced the striking aspect of the woman was this orca-like quality ustardian females get, where the head seems fused to the neck and the mouth promises to open wide enough to take in a live veal.
mircea_popescu: but... yeah irc was also unemployed and otherwise dependopotamus item.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'mcfat', 'corn-fed', goes by various names.
mircea_popescu: amusingly, apparently it also goes by the "i don't like anything about you!!!" name.
asciilifeform: some folx never vex themselves with the q, evidently, of what's to like.
mircea_popescu: ie, the female worldview : a) isn't she the goddess-ordained womb ? b) don't i need kids ? therefore c) i'd better give her all the moneys she says, what.
mircea_popescu: i suppose not even such a bad tactial approach, for the stupid bulk of womanhood. hence why the whole
mircea_popescu: yes it's true that 100% of females being fertile, and indeed the species either reproduces or ends, it then follows that they could "organize" in the way of "labour organizing" and "demand" things.
asciilifeform: kids, rationed sex on special holidays, picket fence, etc, lol
mircea_popescu: the only problem is that the minority of women for whom their intellectual value exceeds their reproductive value, this collective bargaining is a miserable life
mircea_popescu: and for the rest... the beds, seriously.
mircea_popescu: there's no need to even dress them. cows live in shit up to their udders on an antibiotic diet, that's where the overton window is, in this negotiation.
mircea_popescu: (amusingly enough, folks get all aggitated about "social security queens" etc, dun quite grasp that what's happening is quite exactly "son, $600 a head is the best i could manage to keep the cunt churning. you can do it cheaper, go right ahead, i didn't want to use barned wire.")
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this "give all the moneys" has been a particularly impacted bit of cuntfic for many years, btw. you know what the "dead master" (very much in the vein of ) that they all crowd around in (monica belucci's suicidal character, and nobody-robin penn's utterly dedi
mircea_popescu: cated floor washer, and some others) says, at the peak ? "i want you to have all the money". what's rose say in ? yep, that's right, "you should have all the money". originally started as a blacksploitation item (and here's our tie-in with "ubuntu, the african philosophy") -- what's willie dynamite say (to the fat, middle-aged "social worker", no less) ? "i want you to have all th
mircea_popescu: e money!".
asciilifeform: the part that remains unclear, is for what exactly does a cow need money.
mircea_popescu: the driver, in that later case, is transparently oedipian, "just make everything like it was before". (literally, he says this). and i suspect that's why this thing even exists -- one superlative realisation of the autistic boy's refusal of the world is re-entrance into the mother's cunt.
mircea_popescu: perhaps if "he gives her all the money" this could occur ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is why you know and how you know she didn't come up with it.
mircea_popescu: it's entirely ~male~ fantasy. give the queen the kingdom, maybe that way the messengers will stop streaming towards your location ?
mircea_popescu: "what the fuck is a queen to do with a kingdom" is not contemplated here.
mircea_popescu: but obviously, she'll either end it or turn it into a queendom, what the fuck CAN she do.
asciilifeform: did we ever do 'carlists in spain' thread btw ?
mircea_popescu: pluriously iirc.
asciilifeform: !#s carlism
asciilifeform: !#s carlist
mircea_popescu: willie dynamite is a great 70s flick btw. 100% of all "romantic comedies" acting and actors packed in one dude there/
mircea_popescu: he contorts that ugly nigger face like it's propelling space ships.
deedbot: << Qntra - Remains Of Gawker Media Back On The Sales Block
mircea_popescu: you know, it's the height of unfairness that items like gawker have to be ~sold~.
mircea_popescu: really, the civil code should be upgraded to include ~divorce~ for female companies.
mircea_popescu: they get the shareholder's house and "all the money" and move on to a new "cheif executive officer" set.
a111: Logged on 2014-12-08 19:04 asciilifeform: 'companies that go bankrupt are a danger to healthy competition. They are able to make their creditors and shareholders pay for their losses and bad management and then to start anew with assets that they essentially got for free, quite unlike the competition that has not gone bankrupt, who have to pay full price for their assets, but quite similar to how their customers have wanted their products, for too little money.'
mircea_popescu: anythign but life imprisonment for default on debts is rank nonsense.
asciilifeform: organ sale.
mircea_popescu: note how it was also the law of the land, even as late as 60s.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah.
asciilifeform: iirc in usa mostly went out in 1860s.
mircea_popescu: nah, as late as 1960 it meant "end of life" in that you became a nigger and had to sell ("voluntarily", heh) your suburban home
asciilifeform: ah this they still have
asciilifeform: ( at least if usg is the creditor )
mircea_popescu: then and only then, and so on. the wonders of the police state rediscovered anew for each new crop of idiots.
asciilifeform: in modern usa, confiscation is iffy punishment given how most zeks dun actually own anything but own shirt ( and even it bought on cc )
asciilifeform: there aint even uranium mines ( and would be of questionable ev considering how guards reportedly expect 100k+ in pay )
asciilifeform: there won't be demonstrative impalement of folx who lend to the uncreditworthy, because at this point the latter includes ~whole of anglostani empire
mircea_popescu: rather the problem is that you can't have "progress" and responsible credit. gotta pick one.
asciilifeform: iirc there was a mircea_popescu essay re another orcistan, greece, where 'greece : i am a toilet, what did you expect when you put money into a toilet'
mircea_popescu: "progress" renders all evaluation meaningless as a prerequisite.
asciilifeform admits that it remains unclear to him whether a thing 'responsible credit' is even possible. perhaps the mohammedans have the right idea re credit.
mircea_popescu: well, you'd have to evaluate things. that's the fundamental dispute here. on one hand, the pantsuit, "ourdemocracy", whatever, "progressivists" how oyu'd call them (they'd preferred to be called "modern man", with an implicit hint that the modern part is spurious and they've always been all there ever was etc), which holds a strict "nothing can be meaningful, like, ever" stance.
mircea_popescu: on the other, the republic, attempting something rather in the vein of "the life among the meaningless is not worth living, so whether meaning-izing works or doesn't, it'll be done."
phf: asciilifeform: i think the alexander dumas notion of responsible credit is a reasonable thing, i.e. borrow from a handful of reasonably informed wealthy people from your town, deliver return on credit, otherwise "i'm ruined, going to hang myself, daughter to be weed to one of the creditors" etc.
mircea_popescu: but the deep fundamental issue that greenspun ran into and bewails in is exactly this : postmodernity is predicated on meaninglessness.
mircea_popescu: phf this sounds great, and works fine for as long as you stick to pulp fiction (this ~particular~ narrowness of viewport is why dumas never counted as an important writer). try and step outside of the threemusketeering and see if it can still be meaningfully applied.
asciilifeform: montecristoing but yes
phf: asciilifeform: i believe it was a reference to earlier mention of three musketeers as a source of useful knowledge, rather than any particular plot element. at least i meant dumas as generally high adventure
mircea_popescu: let's set out the dilemma properly, for future readers. 1. if the creditor is not an agent, then why would he get anything ? i mean beyond the usg-istic / southparkian "aaaannd... it's gone" ? and 2. if the creditor is an agent, then why does the borrower carry all the responsibility ?
mircea_popescu: just how much of an agent to make the principal in the principal-agent relationship is the problem. because obviously if the principal were an actual agent there'd be no agents.
mircea_popescu: and to bring it home, if anyone hanged every time something blew up unexpectedly i'd be sitting here in an otherwise empty #trilema-gallows bemoanign my sad fate.
asciilifeform: superficially it seems possible to cut apart 'i'ma build fleet of merchant ships and sail to venice' from konsoomer-credit . but i suspect there's a nonremovable 'exam taking' component.
asciilifeform: iirc it was mircea_popescu in an earlier thread who had analogy where 'lines of code are like ammunition issued to cannoneer , to spend with his best effort' or how did it go
mircea_popescu: consider the matter properly : so girl has put capers! in pot of coffee. because can't tell the difference between cardamom or capers, or because too tired, or mischevious, or fucked in the head or you call it, whatever. here's now a nice old style pot (anyone besides me sill use these, btw ? the tronconic items ?) with over a liter of capercoffee made out of SEVEN heaped spoonfulls of the world's best coffee, irreproducible
mircea_popescu: outside of this country.
mircea_popescu: what now ?
asciilifeform: it is rather analogous to venice-credit, the cannoneer is spending the resource of another, and is at the mercy of 'creditor', who can decide to hang'im as traitor -- or not -- if the attack fails
mircea_popescu: but do you recall the case of the misfortunate doria charge ?
asciilifeform: there's a ~bottomless pile of these
mircea_popescu: french cut down mercenary crossbowmen for the fault of having not provided them with dry storage for the tension element ?
mircea_popescu: if people do anything, it's storytelling. what happened ? and so on.
asciilifeform: seems to me that modern mechanistic focus on the debt, rather than the ~debtor~, is intrinsic Wrong Thing
mircea_popescu: hence all the nonsense that has, and will, blow up in their faces. "debt tranching, allowing you to remove the debtor entirely from consideration !!! " "does this actually work ?" "our gauss copula indicates that it definitely will work for as long as it does!"
asciilifeform: supposedly, bulk of 'went bankrupt' in usa is simply where d00d spent a day or 3 in hospital.
asciilifeform: rather than 'maxed cc and spent on whiskey'
mircea_popescu: nah, the thing that sunk the last remnant of "america" in the 2000s was the "adjustable interest".
mircea_popescu: the notion that you can fleece the sheep according to how much wool you "need" (calculated through a complicated abstraction designed to hide the arbitrarity, of course).
asciilifeform: was speaking of what sinks the remaining floating rafts.
mircea_popescu: just because "london sunk" doesn't mean 1mn black tards can now pay an extra twenty each.
asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's eyes, the entire abstraction of creditor-debtor is misconceived.
asciilifeform: the relationship b/w cannoneer and commander -- potentially functional. between debtor and creditor ? i suspect not
asciilifeform: and good chunk of 'demoocracy' and 'progress' consists of the inevitable debtors ganging up to nail creditors.
mircea_popescu: yes, but... "There isn't, nor is there going to be a way, manner, instrument or device through which to protect the passive from the active. "
asciilifeform: my pov is ~not~ 'ohnoez, poor debtors'
mircea_popescu: why should inept creditors have anything ? money doesn't belong with old farts anymore than it belongs with disused wives, it's just not how money works.
mircea_popescu: since we're doing classics, consider eugenie grandet, and all the piles balzac especially wrote about control transfer in belle epoque france.
mircea_popescu: old dood "owns" things ? really ?
mircea_popescu: he will let go, by self "will" or "wise" words or baseball bat.
asciilifeform: current situation is suboptimal for all sides -- focus on individual debts, rather than the actual and dire problem of distinguishing men from vermin, leads to where some men nailed at ~random, while vermin win reprieve after reprieve (typically by 'demoocracying' as a blok )
a111: Logged on 2018-07-10 18:44 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform very much, technology sufficiently primitive is indistinguishable from lottery
asciilifeform: it's more or less exactly monsanto-style agriculture, and other blunt tools of 'modern civilizations'
mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem, however, is that you absolutely need a structure of authority to "distinguish men from vermin". and the whole is all about hwo the autistic boys don't understand who daddy is.
mircea_popescu: and why is he "hurting" mommy.
mircea_popescu: pro tip : to pubescent eyes, sexual congress readily translates to "daddy beating up mommy", as a factual matter. and to similarily infantile minds, what i do to my slavegirls is you know, "abuse" or however they put it.
asciilifeform: what would it even mean to ask the q, outside of structure.
mircea_popescu: yes, but if there's structure there can't be equality. and if there can't be equality, it then follows that ~not everyone could be anything they wanted to~. that could is currently underpinning the whole world economy, as the jesus nut of it all.
mircea_popescu: the whole "hundred trillions" in derivatives, and everything else, hang from this "could".
asciilifeform: i dun think there are, outside of inpatient nut houses, many folx who actually buy the 'erryone can have errything' item
mircea_popescu: not can. could.
asciilifeform: even could.
mircea_popescu: and yes, there are. everyone buys it, as the necessary prerequisite of being "in".
asciilifeform: i suspect it is, like 1980s su 'communism'(tm)(r), a state religion, ~nobody actually buys in, errybody makes the token genuflections.
mircea_popescu: the proof is in the pudding : if one doesn't believe that could, one couldn't possibly find himself in north america. because... COULD NOT.
mircea_popescu: to be there you gotta believe you could be there, and there we go.
asciilifeform: most of the folx in north a have already mentally relocated to 18th c ru, of sorts. i've not met so many folx dumb enuff to actually believe that they will, e.g., one day own (properly speaking) house, or own carcass for that matter
mircea_popescu: this could business... it cuts quite a far swathe. 1518 dairy ~couldn't~ believe she could sit on duchess couch, take duke cock. COULD NOT. doesn't fit in there, like with ducks. in the immortal words of a certain mammie, "it ain't fittin', it just ain't fittin'".
asciilifeform: ( typical specimen on the street , victim of ameri-schooling, naturally does not know what is a serf, word says nothing to him. but if you explain it, he'll nod, 'yes that's me' )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok, but interchangeable parts... this transistor ~COULD~ be part of that radio, OR of this one ?
mircea_popescu: mary jane ~could~ marry jack ~or~ harry ?
asciilifeform: again , outside of the open-air mental asylum of liberast www etc , not so many folx actually believe that 'hey i COULD be gold medalist runner' or the like
asciilifeform: there is awareness of 'not-coulds'.
mircea_popescu: i doubt this very much.
mircea_popescu: having met my fair share of "could be singers" mothers of girls.
asciilifeform: mothers are in their own weight class of risk category for this disease.
asciilifeform: ( goes with territory, neh )
mircea_popescu: because why ? because you'll just make up classes to explain it away as need be ?
mircea_popescu: everyone believes all coulds all the time. proof to the contrary is dismissed under some pretext or other.
asciilifeform: let's suppose mircea_popescu has it , and 'they all believe' . how the hell do they show up to the 9-to-5 cube then.
mircea_popescu: if man will do anything, man will tell stories.
mircea_popescu: they're only there ironically, don't you know ?
mircea_popescu: they're not what they are, in the sense of, history. they are what they could be. see ?
asciilifeform: i dun dispute that they could believe. but the hypothesis dun strike me as a necessary one.
mircea_popescu: in the end the problem is this : "modern democracy" ran into the same problem all societies ever ran into : explaining to men why they should bother fathering. the traditional manner was, "you must have an heir, to keep on your traditions stepping on serf faces", and unacceptable.
mircea_popescu: so modern democracy came up with "kids are SO VERY VALUABLE!!!" it's worth having some. and then took it to heart, hence all the "college debt" mess of financial misdirection, and all the "you can do anyuthing" mess of intellectual misdirection.
mircea_popescu: it's not much of a solution, to wit it doesn't even concinve anyone, but at least it doesn't include serfs' faces and boots and mud.
asciilifeform: dunno that the official spiel has any connection, however tenuous, to reality. you've witnessed the products of ameri-schooling. do said schools strike you as an item produced by folx who 'believe kidz valuable' ?
mircea_popescu: in so many words, yes.
mircea_popescu: and the wives, too, strike me as the products of people who think women valuable.
mircea_popescu: first thing, you know, slavegirl comes across is this plain "you're entirely fucking worthless". pons asinorum, as it were.
asciilifeform: recall frederick's 'soldier is guilty of merely existing! what he has or hasn't done, is a distant secondary' or how did it go
mircea_popescu: original sin!
mircea_popescu: anyway, i shall beach. laters!
asciilifeform: laters.
mod6: have fun
ben_vulpes: << the entertaining part is how much work they put into disguising Kevin Partington's role as "the maintainer"
ben_vulpes: or, you know, whichever other ambulatory meat wad failed even basic imperial sekyoority protocol
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'The pluggable linting utility for JavaScript and JSX' ?!
asciilifeform: wat even.
ben_vulpes: sticky note over the "please shoot me in the face" triggers of shitstack
asciilifeform: in other lulz , << amstan et al publish their Official usg debug snake . ( holyfuq, wai so complicated, mine is 2 resistors lol )
asciilifeform: gotta love usg.opensores. 'buy this thing, with which you can do ~0 but admire the might of the great inca!'
mircea_popescu: im trying to remember wtf "linting" even is supposed to be.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in abominably rubbishy toolchains, the practice of 'doing the checks the compiler oughta have but author was dropped as a baby and so it doesn't', roughly.
asciilifeform: ( iirc orig 'lint' came with k&r's c compiler )
asciilifeform: or , some later ver of same.
mircea_popescu: i guess i just don't program enough.
asciilifeform: such joys, he's missing!11111
mircea_popescu: oh i see, need something to warn about missing license headers. now it all makes sense.
mircea_popescu: bitcoloring tool!
asciilifeform: misgenderings!
asciilifeform: misspeciesings!
mircea_popescu: even wider array of things|!!!
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