Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2018-06-11 | 2018-06-13 →
lobbes: !!up fromloper
deedbot: fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, it's the obvious vuln
mircea_popescu: !!up epony
deedbot: epony voiced for 30 minutes.
epony: oh thanks
mircea_popescu: who might you be ?
epony: a person, reading the blog at loper..
epony: not previously known
mircea_popescu: i can tell you'll be real popular here.
epony: not really
deedbot: << The Tar Pit - The story of Prikoke
asciilifeform: !!up apt-get
deedbot: apt-get voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !!up xdeller_
deedbot: xdeller_ voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !!up fitzsim
deedbot: fitzsim voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in the cr50 swine pits,
asciilifeform: !!up loper_os_cr50
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !!up loper_os_cr50
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: aite from nao on they only get voice if they ask, politely.
asciilifeform: fucking insects.
mircea_popescu: i thought you were having fun!
asciilifeform: with the connect/disconnect subhumans?!
mircea_popescu: how could you not be happy your article was popular!!! didn't it get a lot of visitors ?!?!?! ?!
a111: Logged on 2017-12-22 17:18 weevlos: trinque: we are a media publication. our power and capital comes from the number of visitors we have to the site. we aim to transform through culture. if normal people cannot visit our site we are not accomplishing our goal
mircea_popescu: who could have predicted getting a large number of morons that can't figure out ip addressing isn't worth anyone's time ?!?!!?
asciilifeform: fughet 'normal people', idea was possibly the asexuate google devs have defector in the ranks
asciilifeform: but admittedly tall order.
mircea_popescu: nah, the problem is that it consists of amstan orcs by mass. they're so enamoured with what the mud-toed grandmother back in rural orcistan thinks about "grandson works at google", they'll defect after the anal rape, maybe.
asciilifeform: btw on reread of the sores, raising the b4 pin is not expected to do anything productive, it merely sets the port config to the same default state the three 0 strapping pins already set it to in my box
mircea_popescu: you realise there's still idiots in rural kuban / albania / we keeping in ancient closets receipts from the local MMMs ?
mircea_popescu: same exact fucking thing, we'll have long buried alphabet and they'll still have hidden under dirty mattresses "certificates of achievement"
mircea_popescu: heck, idiots had medals from the tsar long after 1920.
asciilifeform: this tsar is still making payroll, last i heard
mircea_popescu: last thing normie muppet will do, no matter what, is admit he was a normie muppet.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, really ? because last i heard, from tu quoque no less, he... wasn't making payroll.
asciilifeform: google?
asciilifeform: they have these slaves, they work for food and roof, etc. and they aint dead yet, corpses can't post disinfo in forums etc. so ergo they still make payroll..
mircea_popescu: mr "oh i don't wanna work for google to pay 5x in rent what their salary is". or we dun remember that now ?
asciilifeform: well i dun want to work at foxconn either, lol
asciilifeform: but foxconn is still 'somehow' in biznis
mircea_popescu: the notion that corpses put disinfo on forums because google pays them to is not unlike the notion idiot chinese teenager spams because the sinospam conspiraci pays him to.
mircea_popescu: they don't need to be paid, that's what an idiot is. who pays the wind to pull down your barn ?
mircea_popescu: review that excellent harlan whine. where is it.
a111: Logged on 2014-05-02 12:35 mircea_popescu: << here's the real story.
mircea_popescu: "what is mgm, with a patch on the eye on the corner begging for nickles ? they repackage free shit idiots gave them in the hopes of '''making name for selves''' and pretend like they;re in business"
asciilifeform: btw lulzy, << work log (includes all 3 firmwares)
asciilifeform: and such gems as 'make code build with gcc 8.1'
mircea_popescu: that's 100% what the shitstack is ; and i bet you amstan for instance is in shock over there in his silent dounce corner, "omfg, these people are impressed ~negatively~ with my political committments ?!?!?! they despisew me ?!!??! how could this be omfg"
asciilifeform: i doubt that he has any political thought process at all
asciilifeform: does amoeba ?
asciilifeform: or simply swims to where the food is.
mircea_popescu: socrates says, not can has no political thought.
mircea_popescu: and yes, amoeba is staunchly republican. no pantsuit amoeba available.
mircea_popescu: perversity only starts from a certain brainbox cubage onwards.
asciilifeform: for the folx 'worth weight in pig carcass', pantsuit is where the food is.
asciilifeform: so they swim.
mircea_popescu: this is a tenuous point.
mircea_popescu: but, maybe.
asciilifeform: orc, who oughta be selling cigarettes out of a suitcase at the sunday market , instead taking home google payola, etc
mircea_popescu: it's unclear this is the case.
mircea_popescu: seems more often "orc, who could have been lord, instead sells cigs out of a suitcase".
asciilifeform: these also.
asciilifeform: they exist in parallel.
mircea_popescu: it's not clear to me google much hires your type, unless they're mamies.
mircea_popescu: young orc male generally my type ; but anyway.
asciilifeform: well tbh i dun know the amstan d00d at all, can't say precisely whose type
asciilifeform: can only suspect, that he's 'miami-seeking' type.
mircea_popescu: i'm just going by the stereotype. he dun look like jackie brown, he's not enjoying a +ev situation with usg.whatever.
phf: << updated, but mp-wp_comments-fix also requires an updated. right now it's showing missing antecedents..
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 02:48 hanbot: ^ phf please to update, apologies for the hassle.
mircea_popescu: phf, looked to me like a regrind (patrch got absorbed)
phf: oh that was the idea, kk
mircea_popescu: not even a bad way to do all this, avoid confusion.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, btw, do you want to see what to my eyes became epitomical "get this to compile with gcc 8.1" code ?
phf: (to clarify for logs, mp-wp patchset now, correctly, has reground mp-wp_genesis only)
mircea_popescu: it'll make your eyes water.
mircea_popescu: btw how's lyf treatin ya phf ?
phf: it's good. i went up to new paltz (upstate new york) for rock climbing and to see an old friend.
mircea_popescu: visiting the remnants of ye olde jew empire huh.
phf: they do have a lot of beautiful land
mircea_popescu: paltz, for the curious, is idish for the german palatinate.
mircea_popescu: ie, previous lordship.
phf: my friend, whose father is a professor of divinity, was eager to inform me that the village was founded by huguenots
phf: of course these days it's just a generic american smalltown
phf: it's a beautiful area, an hour and a half train ride from manhattan along hudson, into the mountains, views of catskills
mircea_popescu: this may even be true. the exact meaning of "huguenot" in the period, much like "protestant" etc, is a lot more diverse than contemporaries (like to) think.
mircea_popescu: but the notion of french huguenots speaking plattdeustch...
mircea_popescu: there's this joke in romania that "if you hear a hungarian speaking foreing languages you're looking at a jew".
mircea_popescu: (plattdeutsch is how you get from pfalz to paltz ; very similar to how idish works... or rather worked, it's pretty much dead.)
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 14:42 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, btw, do you want to see what to my eyes became epitomical "get this to compile with gcc 8.1" code ?
phf: mircea_popescu: that as always makes a lot of sense. i knew that the original was an area in germany, but i didn't give much further thought to the obvious modification
asciilifeform: revisiting upstack -- currently asciilifeform has 0 useful leads whatsoever on cr50 ( finished archaeological dig through the published src, found no obvious hole , yet )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, look at the barf / etc ; then look at the routines in which it ends up looping infinitely. then try and say why.
mircea_popescu: phf, linguistics and phonetics is a major solvent for post-medieval mysteries. in some cases even earlier. a lot hinges on what kind of attic or aeolian or whatever other obscure way to say o and u someone employed.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: loox like some sort of nonsense with 'smart pointers' ?
mircea_popescu: also, pfalz is not per se an area in germany ; it's a bunch of areas. originally [holders of] palatine lands elected the emperor, so it's really akin to saying portland-tmsr and seattle-tmsr. tmsr isn't a plage, it's a designation.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, 8 layers of smartness.
mircea_popescu: literally nobody knows how it works.
mircea_popescu: i have half a mind to somehow extract it for display
mircea_popescu: the only problem is... i don't actually know how.
mircea_popescu: in any case it's very much "this is what foss is", a token and an icon.
mircea_popescu: the modern equivalent of those medievally fixed timepieces, compensated, recompensated and re-recompensated until the count of moving parts exceeded the "engineer's" capacity to count.
mod6: mornin'
asciilifeform: cpp specifically attracts the worst of the worst, in re complexity cancer, this was obvious long enuff ago that naggum noted it
asciilifeform: the only reason it did not spread even farther outside of microshit (yes, the epicenter, despite not being originator) is that cpp projects tend to collapse under own weight too quickly to hit market
mircea_popescu: these idiots (project something or the other, i forget) spent ten years to reach this pinnacle ; and the whole time wondering why their ~server~ can't hold more than five or so people connected.
mircea_popescu: THEN they "moved on to unity". because "it's slicker visually".
mircea_popescu: !!up loper_os_cr50
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: and who might you be, 12th loper_os_cr50 ?
loper_os_cr50: A curious person who is interested in owning my own hardware instead of it pwning me. Found the channel through
mircea_popescu: alright. see the topic / read the logs / register a rsa key etc.
mircea_popescu: and in other "only in this country" lulz, i see a dark halfinch long form squrrying under the bottle washer behind the kitchen skin tap. so i'm all, you know if you've ever lived in new york, or buenos aires, or generally a large town, "fuck you, you little bitch" kill! kill! kill! mode.
mircea_popescu: turns out to have been... A FUCKING MOTH. nectar eating night guy.
mircea_popescu: goes right with the "about the size of a... scorpion, with a dangly apendage behind, looking like a ... scorpion tail" girl saw yest... FLYING.
mircea_popescu: oh, also, lest i forget : see alf ? you just don't do the upping correctly, is all.
asciilifeform: in re cr50 -- if we find which fpga was the basis, it may be possible to craft pad-for-pad replacement for the fritz.
asciilifeform: ( if not, still possible, but will cost much, much more , possibly making the whole project -ev )
mircea_popescu: eh, it's not clear it's worth soldering anything to begin with
asciilifeform: but if can put a $5 fpga in its place, it's a 15 min job.
asciilifeform: incl. unscrewing the case.
mircea_popescu: marginally may work.
mircea_popescu: i suppose you just buy a live-in slavegirl to do the job eventually.
asciilifeform: aha, with caveats (i.e. 1 or 2 in 10 boards will crack and die)
asciilifeform: could prolly be subcontracted out to chinese.
asciilifeform: fwiw the board runs from 20 to 70 bux, on the market
asciilifeform: ( for how long, nobody knows )
BingoBoingo: << Aconcagua is only a bus, boat, and bus away from here
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 14:45 phf: it's good. i went up to new paltz (upstate new york) for rock climbing and to see an old friend.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, in the cr50 swine pits,
mircea_popescu: i think i like mine better.
mircea_popescu: i mean, it's the same thing, but at least mine got tits.
asciilifeform: that must be what folx mean by 'smoking cock'
asciilifeform: re costs -- can't speak for other folx, but i'd happily pay, say, $1k , for a proper arm64 lappy
asciilifeform: or even 2
asciilifeform: ( better yet, ice40 lappy. but 'if wishes were horses' etc )
mircea_popescu: i haven't identified a use for laptop yet besides "dumbphone replacement for aspiring slavegirls".
asciilifeform: what can i say, i like to work out of doors
asciilifeform: ( as does, iirc, phf, and possibly a few other l1 folk )
mircea_popescu: maybe you're a horse altogether.
asciilifeform: horse, donkey, whichever.
asciilifeform: and rk chipset is , by itself, surprisingly friendly.
asciilifeform: ( seems like recent coreboot even abolishes the orig vendor's dram init turd )
mircea_popescu: they have a replacement ?
asciilifeform: asciilifeform has not yet tested.
mircea_popescu: this is pretty cool.
mircea_popescu: iirc dram init was a major issue.
asciilifeform: given as rk has no idea which dram a given board maker will want to use, they made the timings settable
asciilifeform: sorta like on pc northbridge
mircea_popescu: not bad.
asciilifeform: it is theoretically possible to turn rk3328-roc-cc ( as in pizarro pilot plant ) into a portable of a kind. one can get miniature hdmi lcd, etc. but there is no convenient way to handle power; it expects 5v, and has no provisions for interrogating battery level, one would have to build something , rather gnarly.
mircea_popescu: regulators aren't expensive. and nothing wrong with 5v from battery either.
mircea_popescu: in fact, higher voltage is arguably better.
asciilifeform: expense is not the issue, but rather the 'how much battery do i have' indicator.
mircea_popescu: but the last thing anyone fucking wants is an even smaller laptop.
asciilifeform: and the board has a linear reg, wastes current.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, that does NOT need to be part of the computer.
mircea_popescu: have a fucking mechanical gauge, steampunk all the way
asciilifeform: dunwork with lithium cells
asciilifeform: sorta why i dislike them
asciilifeform: they output ~constant voltage until dead
mircea_popescu is reminded of the suitcases joke
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i didn;t mean VOLTMETER. i meant, separate doohickey.
asciilifeform: certainly.
mircea_popescu: heck, some actuallty even have gauge on themselves. i've seen this. it's not expensive or hard to make.
asciilifeform had some headaches in BingoBoingostan with x60 lappy (had to bring ~something~ to use for setup) , had to connect from a few places that had no mains, and battery was limiting factor. and x60 is heavy, occupied valuable launch capsule mass )
asciilifeform: and if i had lost it, would be a bitch to replace
mircea_popescu could almost go for a 400 x 450 mm laptop chassis, provided it includes a proper sized kbd.
asciilifeform: pretty much whole trip asciilifeform was thinking 'mmm, if only had c101pa...'
mircea_popescu: Display size: 17.6" × 13.2" = 232.32in² (44.7cm × 33.53cm = 1498.84cm²) at 79.55 PPI, 0.3193mm dot pitch, 6327 PPI² << get a sxga+ in there.
asciilifeform: the old ratty boeing 757s lacked mains plugs too
mircea_popescu: heck, with modern tech you can prolly go >1mn ppi^2.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: display can be sourced, i actually have several 'naked' display here for experiments. the bulk of the headache is the kbd , chassis, power. any way you cut it, chassis becomes a multi-kg monster 'luggable'
mircea_popescu: something like the ipad retina, but in 45/35 rather than bs 15 x 12 cm they got.
asciilifeform: ( which , i get, dun matter worth a shit for mircea_popescu's applications. )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, there is such a thing as people with cars and pack animals.
asciilifeform: right, and most of the time asciilifeform goes in cars and pack animals also
asciilifeform: but in this particular case had to go in pay-per-kg launcher
mircea_popescu: and moreover, i think it is important to MAKE THIS A DIFFERENTIATION POINT.
mircea_popescu: "no machinery, no slaves, wtf do you want ?"
mircea_popescu: "grandfather's sword won't work for you until you get a horse like your grandmother."
asciilifeform: << classical mircea_popescu-style laptop.
mircea_popescu: lol. wtf does it come with, the powerplant ?
asciilifeform: pc iron
asciilifeform: you can still get these, apparently.
asciilifeform: ( or, if you like carpentry, make... )
mircea_popescu: lmao. srsly.
asciilifeform: not so great for air travel tho.
ave1: I ordered this one,, today. It supports a pcie 4 lane card, so I will try to use it for a desktop replacement.
asciilifeform: ave1: this is a kind of 'plus' version of the pizarro rk, yes
asciilifeform: ( costs ~2x )
ave1: yes, it's the same chip as in the notebook, also cost more (and will be even more with the european import tax added)
ave1: as an aside, I've been readin the google code for the cr50 but I also did not find any obvious holes so far
ave1: reading
asciilifeform: iirc there's another 3399 board, 'firefly'
ave1: the libre computer board is in the pizarro rk? it seems to be 80$ for 4G. This is the same price, for the rockpro64.
asciilifeform: i was never able to locate the 4g ver of the 3328
asciilifeform: the 2g was about fiddybux in small qt
ave1: aha, yes I did not try to order the 4g version (also the 2g version is twice as expensive on the german amazon)
asciilifeform: ave1: the pci slot in 'pro' is nifty
asciilifeform: ave1: this board is potentially good candidate for mircea_popescu-style 'laptop'
asciilifeform: ave1: did you get the sata peripheral also ?
asciilifeform: imho main weakness of my rk boards is lack of sata
ave1: asciilifeform, no I did not get the board, it seems to me a standard pcie x4 slot and cards for these can be easily had locally
asciilifeform: theoretically normal pc sata board oughta work
asciilifeform: so long as it doesn't carry x86 firmware on board
asciilifeform: !!up yesplease
deedbot: yesplease voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: yesplease: hello?
mircea_popescu: it's nikki on a trip.
asciilifeform: in other negative results, small ra-226 isotope capsule had no measurable effect on cr50 .
asciilifeform: possibly chip package includes shielding of some form.
asciilifeform: ( imho would be interesting to try hard xray, but currently i dun have with what. )
asciilifeform considers idea of proclaiming a 1 btc prize for a working break of cr50 . any l1 folk interested in contributing to the prize chest , and/or overseeing the refereeing ?
asciilifeform: !!up bastard0
deedbot: bastard0 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: bastard0: hello ?
asciilifeform: !~ticker --market all
asciilifeform: hm we dun have a working heathenticker no moar, do we.
asciilifeform: !!up gribble
deedbot: gribble voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 6710.85, vol: 7122.16 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 6967.0, vol: 574.76 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 6696.8, vol: 20943.68 | GDAX BTCUSD last: 6696.85, vol: 8004.02 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 6701.4, vol: 3395.15 | Gemini BTCUSD last: 6702.88, vol: 3265.19 | Volume-weighted last average: 6703.53
asciilifeform: !!down gribble
asciilifeform: hey phf , didja ever get your debug plug going ?
asciilifeform: !!up cnomad
deedbot: cnomad voiced for 30 minutes.
cnomad: hey
asciilifeform: cnomad: what brings you to #trilema ?
cnomad: your blog post brought me here
cnomad: was curious
asciilifeform: cnomad: please read the logs -- -- and make use of the search, before asking q
asciilifeform: chances are, it's been answered
cnomad: thanks, no qs at the moment
asciilifeform: cnomad: so what is it you're curious about then
cnomad: I don;t have any _specific_ qs at the moment, but i do some IC and firmware RE. I don't even know what this channel is about before joining
asciilifeform: cnomad: consider reading the chan subj line
cnomad: it's not very clear
cnomad: is this a technical channel or a political or...?
asciilifeform: hey mircea_popescu , didja hear, apparently it's not clear
asciilifeform: cnomad: a bit of both
asciilifeform: matters technical and political are not in reality separable.
asciilifeform: ( or rather, the mistaken notion that they are separable, is promulgated by the great satan. )
cnomad: yeah
cnomad: you guys have a manifesto or something?
asciilifeform: if you stick around until mircea_popescu wakes up, he will elaborate.
asciilifeform: cnomad: meanwhile, tell us a bit about yourself. reverse engineer ?
asciilifeform: for profit ? for sport ? both ?
cnomad: both
cnomad: mostly contracting
asciilifeform: are you interested in / familiar with cr50 in particular ? or heard of it for 1st time from the article
cnomad: currently working on liberating a tl866a programmer, but mostly i do RE and pwning for various security chips
asciilifeform: ha i use tl866 right here
douchebag: Interesting
cnomad: I knew about it before, and when I did it was curious noone wrote about it then
asciilifeform: cnomad: you will probably not be surprised to hear that google doctors its search results.
cnomad: yeah
asciilifeform: so yes, generally you won't hear what they do not want you to hear, if google search if your main source.
cnomad: i don't use google
asciilifeform: hence how you found article, i will guess. good.
asciilifeform: cnomad: please consider registering a pgp key with deedbot :
asciilifeform: cnomad: then i will rate you, and you will be able to speak when there is no one to manually give you voice.
asciilifeform: and you can start developing reputation.
cnomad: i don't want to develop reputation, just wanna say hi and observe
asciilifeform: then you will probably be satisfied with reading the log. typically it takes 6month of reading, to grasp what's going on.
cnomad: ok
asciilifeform: however, if you wish to work with the people here ( and this is where the serious coin lives ) you will want to get in the deedbot wot.
asciilifeform: you do not have to use your meatspace name, or anything of the kind. simply need gpg key, one that you won't lose.
diana_coman: cnomad, do you specifically want to *not* develop a reputation here ?
cnomad: im a go-with-the-flow kinda guy. rep will naturally follow
asciilifeform: it won't, if you ain't in the wot.
asciilifeform: until you are in the wot, 'you' do not exist, it is not difficult to hijack a fleanode nick.
cnomad: i see
asciilifeform: nor will anyone attempt to communicate in confidence with you, without gpg pubkey.
diana_coman: cnomad, precisely; just... it needs a recipient to accumulate in; basically how is anyone to say it's same *you* next time you join?
asciilifeform: so, for example, i am considering declaring a btc bounty for cr50 break. but it will only be available to folks in the wot, for the very obvious reason .
asciilifeform: ( how am i to know whom to pay ? and if the magic answer is sent plaintext, it will land in the fleanode nsa trap and immediately get shared with the enemy. )
cnomad: ahh
cnomad: fair enough
asciilifeform: cnomad: there is a www front-end for the wot; this , for example : is me.
cnomad: ok here's a sha512sum for now, i'll regsiter w/ your bot a bit later
cnomad: 7d3ca5d5e5e09bdc3ebf53017a883e2c10710fe5edf8f46838ff5e6b5bf33e6c031554b959badb9ef8a0bca772a6df2c8e677227143ea46d3f36d28b43e26135
cnomad: so if you question my identity i'll give you the non hashed text
asciilifeform: this doesn't do anything for us. but do consider !!register'ing a gpg key.
asciilifeform: all you gotta do is to put it where ( http://somewhere/yourkey.txt, not https ) deedbot can see it, and then !!register thaturl .
cnomad: how much are you offering for liberating a cr50? fyi, it'll be a _hard_ target
asciilifeform: cnomad: not determined yet. at least 1btc.
cnomad: ok
asciilifeform: out of curiosity, cnomad , do you think this is laughably small ?
cnomad: yeah
cnomad: i mean
asciilifeform: how large a bounty would pique your interest, cnomad ?
cnomad: if the goal is to liberate it for public use, then it's easier to justify paying less than market rate
cnomad: hmm
asciilifeform: well yes, for public use. with the caveat that we will not be giving the curative pill to google.
asciilifeform: we will make cured machines available, at reasonable cost.
asciilifeform: ( if the jailbreak is published openly, the hole is likely to be closed in short order. this prolly does not need explaining. )
cnomad: If someone popped this chip, I'd value it at _least_ 200k USD. we're talking about invasive analysis that requires equipment, weeks of non-stop work, and experience
asciilifeform: !!up cnomad
deedbot: cnomad voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: for my purposes, a proper break is when i can load in arbitrary firmware in place of the vendor's.
asciilifeform: into all currently available cr50 boards, but in particular the c101pa.
cnomad: especially since this is a generic security chip with potentially more serious applications
cnomad: oh
asciilifeform: i do not particularly need extraction of user-loaded tpm crapola, it does not do anything for me.
cnomad: but if you re-write the firmware, you own the tpm
asciilifeform: ( though as i understand it will also be possible as a side-effect of any general break. )
asciilifeform: correct.
asciilifeform: simply must point out, if as side effect of the break, the user-loaded data is nulled, this is not a problem for us.
asciilifeform: so it is just as good to break the 'rma lock' mechanism, as the firmware verification, as i currently understand it.
cnomad: gotcha
asciilifeform: the objective is to neuter, once and for all, the nsa master key mechanism.
asciilifeform: then, e.g. the c101pa, becomes a pretty useful, general-purpose arm64 box.
asciilifeform: but until then, it is a kind of iphone
cnomad: heh
asciilifeform: re 'weeks of nonstop work', understand that the break must be mass-applicable, it is not useful to flip the bits with electron beam in ~one~ particular cr50
cnomad: yeah, using a SEM/FIB is the easy way
asciilifeform: but does us 0 good
cnomad: well it could provide some insight into the target
cnomad: for further REing
asciilifeform: the break would ideally be applicable via the debug device; or, at worst, by attaching to the test pads on the pcb.
cnomad: yeah
asciilifeform: the expense of decapping ~each~ cr50 in each box, is prohibitive, and makes whole proposition uninteresting
asciilifeform: i'ma brb, teatime
cnomad: well the most likely non-firmware approach would be finding a way to glitch/fault it
cnomad: that would be scalable
cnomad: that being said, these chips are generally hardened against faulting / glitching / DPA attacks
mircea_popescu: anything specific ?
cnomad: from reading around a few months ago, they use a similar IC that's used for smart cards, which implement a lot of hardening measures like dual rail logic, security meshes, and various other hardening measures
cnomad: so this is likely some evolution of that
mircea_popescu: sounds like a lot of expensive customization.
cnomad: yeah they can be generic. Mass produce them so engineers can use them for TPMs and whatnot
mircea_popescu: "smart" cards are not usually all that hardened in practice.
cnomad: good, modern ones are
asciilifeform: cnomad: main form of glitch hardening in cr50, going by the src, is the tactic of repeating the various crypto checks N times
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 18:48 asciilifeform considers idea of proclaiming a 1 btc prize for a working break of cr50 . any l1 folk interested in contributing to the prize chest , and/or overseeing the refereeing ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: good. nao all we need is a refereee
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu wanna referee?
mircea_popescu: doesn't the referee have to be qualified ?
asciilifeform: well ideally he'd have a box to test $pill on
asciilifeform: hey phf !
asciilifeform: cnomad: dpa won't do a lick of good, the boobytrap is a rsa pub sig check, no secrets involved
cnomad: yeah i know, i was speaking more generally
asciilifeform: ( i can dpa right here, dun need help even. but it isn't particularly useful for cr50. )
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 19:18 cnomad: is this a technical channel or a political or...?
mircea_popescu: the claim to the contrary is a political ploy put forth by the enemies of humanity.
asciilifeform: cnomad: chip appears to be rad-hard, to an extent, also. tho there is a plain physical limit as to rad-hardness of an object half a mm in thickness
asciilifeform: and at any rate a pill that requires elaborate physical diddling is not suitable for mass curing.
mircea_popescu: if well grounded, that limit can be high indeed.
asciilifeform: !!up cnomad
deedbot: cnomad voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: << it will onlty follow if you exist. without a registered key, you don't. nobody's going to even pretend "that cnomad guy" is a thing, different or differentiable from any other
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 19:32 cnomad: im a go-with-the-flow kinda guy. rep will naturally follow
asciilifeform: cnomad: it is quite conceivable that the artifact is airtight, and no one will collect the prize. however it is also conceivable that there is, e.g., buffer overflow somewhere in the mass of c crapola, and it can be rooted today, via the usb jack.
cnomad: yeah
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, the only problem is, i'm paying bitcoin to fix google's crapolade ? this sounds a lot like the soviet-sponsored "criticism of capitalism"
cnomad: oh this chip will get popped someday, it's certainly possible
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rape, not fix
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 19:41 asciilifeform: well yes, for public use. with the caveat that we will not be giving the curative pill to google.
mircea_popescu: if it's software and it's found, well... they'll make a firmware upgrade yes.
asciilifeform: some time after we cure 500 units.
asciilifeform: nothing's forever.
mircea_popescu: but the blade cuts the wrong way.
asciilifeform: the machines currently on retail shelves, are curable.
asciilifeform: ( if cure indeed exists )
mircea_popescu: i'd be surprised if "the public" has the werewithal to even liberate 500 of them, should a pill be available now.
asciilifeform: what public. asciilifeform , right here in torture room, will liberate.
mircea_popescu: and you'll store 500 laptops ?
asciilifeform: they're small.
asciilifeform: s.nsa product.
mircea_popescu: yes, but you're making less than alphabet is from this deal.
mircea_popescu: the idea is to work things so we make more than they do.
asciilifeform: alphabet sells'em, i suspect, at-cost.
asciilifeform: they make their dough via luser rapine, not iron.
mircea_popescu: i still don't see the merit in this "pay" approach.
asciilifeform: the snsa boxen, in the hypothetical, will not contain google crapola.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho it's worth a shot, dun cost me anything if nobody plays.
mircea_popescu: this is a naive way of looking at things.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is not expected to contribute to the prize pot, if he thinks it is waste of time.
mircea_popescu: consider what "pay for tits" got.
mircea_popescu: i didn't do that publicly for nothing, after all.
asciilifeform: refereeing will take some work. hence the call for a willing referee .
mircea_popescu: there wasn't a single noteworthy one in the whole bunch, yes ?
asciilifeform: ( and naturally contest would have finite time bound )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, think : paying for tits resulted, before your very eyes, in ever increasing levels of exam taking. yes ? you noticed this, yourself, i said nothing, you complained about it.
asciilifeform: verily it did.
mircea_popescu: now you want to pay for cr-whatever. why ? do you expect it'll go any differently ? why ? and so on.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: occasionally folks do break things. presently they're stuck 1) publishing, and it gets patched within a day by enemy 2) the enemy's bounties, paid in printolade
mircea_popescu: "it doesn't cost me anything" is how filthy person ends up with bug infestation, "oh, the jam they eat cost me nothing".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, folks who can think are cordially invited to extract their head out of their ass, stop cohabiting with monkeys, join the republic.
mircea_popescu: if they can't do this, measured as "don't do this", a) the argument they were intelligent is tenuous and b) paying them is exacrtly thr wrong thing to do.
asciilifeform: well i wrote the article. observe what sort of folx came thus far.
mircea_popescu: ie, a) if indeed this guy exists that'd give tyou whatever for the whatever prize, and b) i know for certain that he wouldn;'t have otherwise, somehow then c) i'll send a gal over to tie him to a post, slice an inch of his abdomen, and slowly roll his inrtestine on a cat scratch pad.
mircea_popescu: because what the fuck else would you expect me to do.
asciilifeform: at any rate, nothing's finalized, if mircea_popescu is convinced that this is dumb idea, i'ma call it off
mircea_popescu: i'm not convinced of anything, but i'd rather discuss it than not.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the code repo contains list of meat names of good candidates to tie to a post.
asciilifeform: they have access to that privkey.
asciilifeform: ( one even on record, as 'no i don't!111' , amstan )
mircea_popescu: certainly consists of list of miserable overgrown avortons whose mothers should be really, really ashamed they waited.
asciilifeform: verily.
cnomad: curious, you guys speak russian?
mircea_popescu: he does.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform, phf , apeloyee, possibly coupla other folx, do
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu does, to extent, but won't admit!11
cnomad: heh
cnomad: cool me too
mircea_popescu: i'm jewish, that's what we do.
asciilifeform: cnomad: interestingly, 0 discussion on ru net of cr50.
asciilifeform: in so far as i can tell.
asciilifeform: it's been on shop shelves for almost a year, and 0.
asciilifeform: nao, possibly because nobody in ru sphere would be caught dead buying google crapolade, even for experiment.
asciilifeform: but still somewhat surprising.
asciilifeform: currently the thing is in a handful of boxes, but i suspect that it will spread.
asciilifeform: esp. if the derps begin to think that they've made an airtight trap.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i don't expect that the google monkeys with access to the key, will willingly spill it ( tho this cannot be ruled out. ) idea was, possibly to get the same folks who currently sweat over ipnoje etc , interested.
mircea_popescu: but if their brain dun work enough for them to get thjemselves interested on their own, then what's your btc gonna do ?
asciilifeform: what does crapple's 100k bounty do ?
asciilifeform: or what was it.
mircea_popescu: nothing.
asciilifeform: if it were 'nothing', the holes from 2015 would still work.
mircea_popescu: it's the ~advertising~ that does something. you understand this, do you ?
asciilifeform: possibly not?
mircea_popescu: ok. let's go back to the original tournament market, the hollywood studio.
mircea_popescu: what's the whatever, $x mn check the star gets DO ?
asciilifeform: win lottery, lol
mircea_popescu: the item where they ship pre-printed cutouts with the silouette of a girl, and a hole for the head, holding a $x mn check, DOES SOMETHING.
mircea_popescu: it does the thing where it's put in front of every soda joint, and before you know it 17 yos are willing to throw their panties at rolling stones and star in cocksucker blues.
asciilifeform: i think i grasp this
mircea_popescu: whereas their mothers were happy to appear in whistler's mother all decked in black.
mircea_popescu: but this is not what you ask. what you ask is, "what does the $x mn do". well ? what does it ?
mircea_popescu: you're not going to reproduce the former by the latter ; just like you're not going to lure my slavegirls away by promising to be "a good sensitive guy with a great sense of humor".
asciilifeform: however must point out, serious work does cost money; e.g. time on electron microscope, we saw what costs; and there is a population of folx who can make use of it, but can't steal enuff time on instruments, or , if they can, allocated it for something that actually pays the bills
mircea_popescu: howsoever indignant my stepping on their faces in the dungeon may make your tingly sense.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, yes, and if zeptobars weren't fucked in the head, they'd have a !Z service here.
mircea_popescu: exactly like sane people do it.
asciilifeform: the problem with zeptobars, is that they're a ~porn co.
asciilifeform: the amt of ~actual~ reversing, to date, by zeptobar, is ~0.
mircea_popescu: but they ARE fucked in the head, and specifically in the manner of
a111: Logged on 2018-04-13 20:14 zx2c4: i'd be wary of any 'deal' that's different from: 'i'm given money. you're given warm feelings of having helped the internet.'
asciilifeform: understand, a die photo would do me ~0 good re cr50.
mircea_popescu: where, of course, "the internet" is really just how he whitewashes satan himself for my benefit\.
mircea_popescu: cuz im supposed to be just as retarded as any other usg-produced neet.
asciilifeform: this aside, they ~are~ fuckedinthehead in the manner mircea_popescu describes. just, it would not make much diff for us to have'em, in this case.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i'm just saying, the thing you discuss, with "has costs", works a ~certain~ way. and if you recall how NOPENOPE NOPE!!! kanzure was wrt getting his inept bs in functional shape, you realise that they will NEVER do any work.
asciilifeform: what can i say, this is probably 100% true.
mircea_popescu: recall ? "put your pdf reader in a bot" "where are your microscopy shots" etc.
mircea_popescu: where are they ? even fucking today ? a year later, and all the "make mp eat crow" one could conjure up, where is it ?
asciilifeform: this is sorta like 'search for extraterrestrial intelligence'
asciilifeform: 'hm, maybe today is when the martians answer'
mircea_popescu: recall the days kakobrekla honestly imagined b-a actually has some sort of future ?
mircea_popescu: they won't work ; and paying them is counter-productive : it encourages them to not work.
asciilifeform: notion was to pay for completed work
asciilifeform: but i can see the 'tits' angle.
mircea_popescu: notion was you working to self-pacify yourself, really.
mircea_popescu: there's no way to cut this : either they do or they don't.
asciilifeform: well currently i'm out of ideas in re cr50; thought i'd try the 1 tool in the box i haven't unsheathed.
mircea_popescu: #lisp STILL FUCKING DOES NOT HAVE candi_lustt
mircea_popescu: what more ?
asciilifeform: !!up cnomad
deedbot: cnomad voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: cnomad: i dun suppose you have anything to add to this thread ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, consider what the previous bitcoins bought, shall we ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: perfectly good photo of d00d with pen in his arse !111
cnomad: nothing to add atm
asciilifeform: cnomad: aite
mircea_popescu: we've seen ; how about ? random moron trying to make a living out of "online marketing", gets paid more than he earned his entire working life (cash, not fucking "hopes" bs) and he... what ?
a111: Logged on 2018-04-18 16:39 a111: Logged on 2018-04-12 16:30 mircea_popescu: !!pay zx2c4 1
a111: Logged on 2017-10-11 20:46 mircea_popescu: !!withdraw 1 12taDFRdimNTHx1xoUkUZWj3nrE4js6LM6
mircea_popescu: nothing. there's not going to be any work encouragement through payment, because the inca has expertly stuffed this channel full of nonsense on both ends. "Free money" from one "nothing to buy for it" from the other, the zek has no use and no need and consequently no conception of money at all.
mircea_popescu: might as well offer moon fiddles.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: hypothetically it'd be a contest with very simple mechanical judgement of winner. but i can picture why no one might want to be the referee.
mircea_popescu: nevermind the referee. explain the incentive structure.
asciilifeform: for players ?
asciilifeform: well, let's take douchebag
asciilifeform: whatcha doing these days, douchebag ?
asciilifeform: let me guess, auditing www crapola to make the rent ?
mircea_popescu: my bet would be, he's working a shitty job in some shitty company and dreams of the day "things will happen".
mircea_popescu: meanwhile nothing's happening, and time goes by, and trinque in the end had a point, no door's open forever.
asciilifeform: maybe not best example, i have nfi whether d00d has the spark of life or not
mircea_popescu: and you know, like shinohai -- if you prod him he'll do some movements, like electrocuted, disembodied frog legs. and if you don't he'll sit. and then wonder why it didn't work out and why he's being so badly persecuted.
asciilifeform: all i got is historical examples, buying keys worked for kgb and gru
asciilifeform: why not for us.
mircea_popescu: recall the time i bought that dork a ranked reddit account ? recall the time anything came of it ?
mircea_popescu: recall the time anything came of rockchip ?
mircea_popescu: and so fucking on.
asciilifeform: sure but what's a reddit worth.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, if "worked" then where are these things it worked for ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, a tool is worth to the tradesman his life.
asciilifeform: i can't speak authoritatively, but according to thirdhand folx, they had the usg naval keys for 20 yrs straight
mircea_popescu: if he's a tradesman. if he's a kid getting in the way of adults, nothing will EVER be worth anything. not ever, no matter what you do.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, and ? they ever won a confrontation with us navy ? they ever won without even needing to confront, like the chinese ?
asciilifeform: aaand they had orig schems, chip layouts, etc. for various 'embargo' products. some of which can still be seen today, e.g. those calcs.
asciilifeform: these were purchased, in exactly the manner contemplated.
mircea_popescu: sure. but anyways, to circle back : i'll match. but i also expect exactly nothing to come of it.
asciilifeform: i expect exactly same thing.
asciilifeform: nao if phf or other l1 is willing to referee, we can hold the game. ( imho asciilifeform does not fit for role of referee. )
mircea_popescu: and somehow, all these inept fucktards sit somewhere "online" on the world wide dweeb, and manage to not notice that "hey, there's some people somewhere , can burn 10s of ks of this shitty green crap just out of boredom. when's the last time our "respectable" "employer" ok'd a $100 expense account ?!?!?!"
asciilifeform: i'd start with giving the players , say , six weeks.
mircea_popescu: you know, i did this on trilema what ? a dozen times ? two ?
asciilifeform: any longer, and the target is likely to move.
mircea_popescu: recall how it never took less than a year for the fucktarded public to even catch on ?
mircea_popescu: and this is not anglotardation ; at some point a decade ago i actually offered a full scholarship. NOBODY claimed it.
asciilifeform: i believe it.
asciilifeform: sometimes there is problem tho, where the prospective players don't believe in the factuality of the prize
mircea_popescu: looky, shit eaters will eat shit.
asciilifeform: ( so paradoxically a 1btc prize imho could attract moar players than 10, even )
mircea_popescu: "i don't believe in factuality of anything besides usg" is the cheapest brand of shit to eat.
asciilifeform: right but hypothetical is that something remains when you take these away.
asciilifeform: ( i have no particular reason to think it, and more or less agree with mircea_popescu re why )
asciilifeform: it's a 'seti'.
asciilifeform: nobody has yet met a martian.
mircea_popescu: as far as i'm concerned, two things remain : republicans and slavegirls.
asciilifeform: afaik that's all.
mircea_popescu: and i don't see why that shouldn't suffice.
asciilifeform: i mean this is one possible approach, when encountering a mine field that the current republicans + slavegurlz can't clear, to say 'eh it dun need clearing'
mircea_popescu: well, say it can't be cleared, what.
asciilifeform: but i'd like to see this one, cleared.
mircea_popescu: saying "jahveh will clear if sacrifice correct ox" is insanity.
asciilifeform: ox clears minefield quite well!111
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, nice. like in one hand, and piss in the other...
asciilifeform: it isn't even wholly about the machines, from asciilifeform's pov, asciilifeform would like to see the enemy bleed some, hear the laments , see the mules driven before him, etc
asciilifeform: and, as mircea_popescu correctly points out, 'would like' never broke any doors.
mircea_popescu: well, you live in dc, send a few girls over to talk to the dweebs.
mircea_popescu: afaik alphabet all lives there, notwisthanding "tech corp" pretense.
asciilifeform: you must have asciilifeform confused with somebody else, the dc mircea_popescu is three doors down
mircea_popescu: also, i can say it is extremely unlikely your preliminary "thousands" figure is correct.
mircea_popescu: it may be as low as a coupla dozen.
asciilifeform: ( and fwiw it's news to me, that any of them live here, nobody lives here if they can reasonably help it )
mircea_popescu: yes well.
douchebag: I've been around, just been busy attending to various issues irl
mircea_popescu: how's the ticks ?
douchebag: It ended up being a spider bite
douchebag: I'm doing well now after a few days
douchebag: thanks
mircea_popescu: ticks are technically spiders, fwiw.
douchebag: Never knew that, I thought they were parasites
douchebag: Ahh they're arachnids
mircea_popescu: << he's not even wrong ; tho honestly i'd much rather buy equipment than outsource.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 19:44 cnomad: If someone popped this chip, I'd value it at _least_ 200k USD. we're talking about invasive analysis that requires equipment, weeks of non-stop work, and experience
mircea_popescu: let's not repeat the mistake that sunk america ; we don't even have an america to sink.
cnomad: what mistake?
mircea_popescu: douchebag, "parasite" isn't a class. but yes, arachnids.
mircea_popescu: cnomad, outsourcing, rather than buying capital goods.
douchebag: A friend of mine is great w/ hardware hacking, reverse engineering, binary exploitation, firmware exploitation, ect.. He has a ton of equipment, if asciilifeform wants I could have him come in here.
BingoBoingo: <douchebag> It ended up being a spider bite << How sure are you about that? Prolly safest to tent the place and fumigate to be sure.
mircea_popescu: douchebag, certainly.
asciilifeform: douchebag: it isn't clear that heavy equipment is of any help. but if talented folx can be led to take an interest, by all means bring'em
mircea_popescu: apparently we'll end up having to organize a defanging lab.
douchebag: BingoBoingo: Well, that's what the doctor told me
asciilifeform: the only on-chip secret that'd make a diff, is if there is an iron backdoor left in fpga
asciilifeform: otherwise it's a purely c-machine exploitation problem
asciilifeform: recall, a cure that requires individual decapping of each patient, is worth ~0.
BingoBoingo: douchebag: Spiders and ticks aren't the only things that bite. Fumigate.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 19:51 cnomad: well the most likely non-firmware approach would be finding a way to glitch/fault it
a111: Logged on 2018-06-11 15:46 asciilifeform: one interesting observation, is that the update mechanism lets you flash in arbitrary crapola into 'rw' section ( it simply won't jump to it if it doesn't pass rsa(sha256(payload)) ) . so theoretically could put a nop sled there, ending with jump into the magic half of unlock routine. and then expose the thing to beta/gamma, and perhaps in a few months it will Do The Right Thing
mircea_popescu: but so far an overflow's elusive.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, honestly, i still suspect there's a clean way to flash-in via the factory pads. however...
mircea_popescu: !!up digshadow-c
deedbot: digshadow-c voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: and in so far as i can tell, thing's a pinball machine, designed to lock up on first sign of glitching
asciilifeform: has thermometer, etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw i tracked down their factory test jig src. it was in their shithub, 'removed' in october 19
mircea_popescu: ahaha, does it brick if you cut out the thermometer ?
asciilifeform: cut lol
asciilifeform: it's on-die.
mircea_popescu: ohthose.
asciilifeform: test jig was simply a variant of the stock fw, and it gets rewritten by the 'prod' fw prior to retail sale.
mircea_popescu: yes but how did they enable it ?
mircea_popescu: !!up xdeller_
deedbot: xdeller_ voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: hello xdeller_ , who might ye be ?
asciilifeform: factory edition of the chip had a loader that overwrites self via spi
asciilifeform: so no trace of it on the prod chip.
mircea_popescu: pretty elegant way to go about it.
douchebag: asciilifeform: Are you referring to the motor compressor
deedbot: << Qntra - Trump And Kim Make A Deal After G7 Treachery
asciilifeform: aha, in so far as i can tell they did a fairly clean job.
asciilifeform: douchebag: waiwat
douchebag: I'm talking to my buddy
douchebag: "i hope hes not referring to the fucking motor compressor"
douchebag: "chromium rite"
asciilifeform: does he think subj is a refrigerator ? or wat
asciilifeform: !!up cnomad
deedbot: cnomad voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: douchebag: i'm not aware of a component known by name of 'motor compressor' anywhere in or near subj
asciilifeform: possibly yer friend is thinking of refrigerator...
trinque: it's right next to the johnson rod
mircea_popescu: douchebag, cr50 is, by all appearances, an arm cortex fpga
BingoBoingo: Even then more apt metaphor for the operation would be a drain and fill
asciilifeform: douchebag: ~in~ fpga. but not an off-the-shelf one, but with LUT filling in mask rom.
asciilifeform: a la altera's 'hardcopy'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, how reliable is your ?
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 16:03 asciilifeform: but if can put a $5 fpga in its place, it's a 15 min job.
asciilifeform: ( may even be, for all i know, literally a product of altera hardcopy )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if i could find a fpga that sits down pad-for-pad, it becomes a $10 problem.
mircea_popescu: could just put a sane kbd driver in there and whatnot. i don;'t even fucking want google's kbd driver, they can shove it.
asciilifeform: however it is not known presently whether one exists.
asciilifeform: kbd, ps, etc
asciilifeform: i'd junk google's crapola fw regardless, even if we break cr50
mircea_popescu: ps is even smaller an issue
asciilifeform: it can be replaced with ~50 line thing.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, can you publish a very large pic of the chip (and margins) only ?
mircea_popescu: ideally 5k px or w/e you can swing. very large very clear.
mircea_popescu: it's fucking terrible.
asciilifeform: but will strip down the box again ( gotta pull out mb and heat sinks etc ) and make a bigger, later this wk
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how big margin do you want ?
mircea_popescu: 1mm past the demarcation is plenty
asciilifeform: i put the spi bootrom in the pic, to make clear the fact that it is connected ~through~ cr50
asciilifeform: ( src confirms this )
mircea_popescu: make 100 shots if you have to, just learn how to use the damned sony and get a proper fixed shot
mircea_popescu: sure. but here no need for that, we're trying to match the chip.
douchebag: My buddy said "although they are mostly factory locked"
douchebag: you can put them in an "rma open" config which will allow some communications functionality
mircea_popescu: douchebag, what are you, mafalda ?
asciilifeform: douchebag: if you were to read my articles, and past 48 hrs of thread, you would already know this.
asciilifeform: incl. what happens re 'rma open'.
asciilifeform: ( unlocking 'rma open' counts as a troo break. )
asciilifeform: and forfuckssake yes they're locked. what didja think the thread were about, douchebag ?
douchebag: I didn't even know what a cr50 was 10 minutes ago
asciilifeform: douchebag: you have some reading to catch up on.
asciilifeform: douchebag: can start with .
douchebag: Sry, been jumping between quite a few different things throughout the day
cnomad: floating an idea... do you folks have a batch of cr50s around that you might be willing to ship?
douchebag: My friend was also wondering who has access to cr50's
cnomad: and if you send 2-3 to me, I can image it for you
asciilifeform: cnomad: it's 300bux or so
cnomad: yeah, for a whole chromebook
mircea_popescu: cnomad, how about you get a key registered, i send you some bitcoin dust, you order yourself a coupla chromebooks and "imagine it for us".
asciilifeform: cnomad: board itself is ~fiddybux on ebay
douchebag: My friend says he's going to research it some more. He said he can have a unit by Friday, he thinks it'll be interesting because it probably hasn't had as much attention given to it due to low market share
mircea_popescu: douchebag, why can't he come in like normal people ?
diana_coman: funny how this hw guy can't even do as much as the girls with tits managed
douchebag: He's not at his computer at the moment
mircea_popescu: so let him get off the girl and get to his computert later.
cnomad: mircea_popescu: ok. I'm not going to get to it within this month, but i'll ping you back for details to give you a die image
cnomad: it prolly will yield some periphery information about the die, similar families / cells that it uses
deedbot: 7BD5B50222D7457B9710CF728D6436492F4A69AF registered as cnomad.
cnomad: there im now on yer watchlist
mircea_popescu: principally it'll yield an opportunity for you to be reconized or how shall we put it.
mircea_popescu: !!pay cnomad 0.1
cnomad: i don't want money, but thanks
mircea_popescu: cnomad, imagine i shipped you some boards, what difference does it make.
mircea_popescu: i suppose i should also rate him huh.
mircea_popescu: !!rate cnomad 1 dood either ran off with my boards or else produced an image of some sort ; we don't know the future yet
mircea_popescu: cnomad, say !!up to deedbot in a pm.
mircea_popescu: !!up cnomad
deedbot: cnomad voiced for 30 minutes.
cnomad: er, more precisely I'm not going to get to it until sometime next month, so I'd rather accept payment then
cnomad: idk deedbat thinks im not registered
mircea_popescu: dingbat lol.
mircea_popescu: cnomad, aite, give it a few mins then, maybe not up to date yet
cnomad: its fine. I'll ping you folks when I'm ready to order some chromebooks and do some imaging
cnomad: motivation for me to finish assembling the fumehood
asciilifeform: the great outdoor world under the sun makes an ok fumehood..
mircea_popescu: no it doesn't.
mircea_popescu: suicidal maniac.
cnomad: i can't say i haven't considered it
asciilifeform: ( well, it + sov gas mask )
mircea_popescu: + buttplug.
asciilifeform: arse-mouth hose, wainot.
asciilifeform: !!rate cnomad 1 says, he's a reverser.
asciilifeform: !!v 93034C3788CC362FD06EF9824B149C73A8C1B0B6EDAA9F1773BB30E80855097D
deedbot: asciilifeform rated cnomad 1 << says, he's a reverser.
mircea_popescu: !!up fitzsim
deedbot: fitzsim voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: aand who might you be ?
deedbot: << Qntra - Apple Signing API Used To Bypass Third Party Anti-Malware Tools
phf: << if you decide that the effort is worth the while, i'll referee
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 20:11 asciilifeform: hey phf !
asciilifeform: phf: do you have now with what to referee ? if i start the contest today, and entry is mailed in, can you test ?
asciilifeform: phf: the way i'm thinking of doing it: i'ma write up and sign a statement describing the competition; you will create a special-occasion key, e.g. 'cr50contest', rate it e.g. +1 cr50 , and i will drop a coin into it.
mircea_popescu: why can't he just use phf ?
deedbot: << Trilema - On the internet, nobody believes you're a sow.
asciilifeform: also worx, but this is easier to keep track of if folx want to donate to the pot etc
asciilifeform: phf: you will test using your c101pa. and so you will need the debug snake, i will need to put the output of sysinfo , ver , brd , etc cr50 console commands into the statement.
asciilifeform: the outputs from phf's box.
mircea_popescu: i can't imagine we'll have such a deluge of these the clerical work keeping track is worh the hassle
asciilifeform: maybe deluge, maybe not, but imho worth labeling it in separate bottle.
mircea_popescu has no strong feelings either way
asciilifeform: also thinking , half the prize is to be paid immediately on the receipt of a working crack, and other half a month later if google shows no sign of patching.
asciilifeform: to discourage double-dipping.
mircea_popescu: this is utter nonsense.
asciilifeform: for the smart arses who want to collect from us and then immediately google's bounty.
mircea_popescu changes asciilifeform 's nick to overengineer, inc.
asciilifeform: i trust the bounty-motivated folk about as far as i can throw'em.
mircea_popescu: "shows to signs" is not a computable string for the phf-machine.
mircea_popescu: no* signs
asciilifeform: it is to be computed as follows : at the end of the elapsed period, i go to a shop and buy a box, and let it vendor-update
asciilifeform: if pill still worx -- pass.
mircea_popescu: you'll end up having to pay like 5 btc for the work involved in this arbitering lol.
asciilifeform: let's see what phf says
mircea_popescu: i don't get it, and if your model is correct, secret waits a month thereby ? what's in a month ?
asciilifeform: in a month, i buy boxen, cure'em.
asciilifeform: simple , neh
asciilifeform: once they're cured, they're cured.
mircea_popescu: your idea is that "what if i don't have enough time to get to the store after contest is declared" ?
asciilifeform: gotta give ~some~ interval.
asciilifeform: dun have to be whole month.
mircea_popescu: sometimes i wonder what you imagine google is.
asciilifeform: and winner gets his jollies from publishing etc. if he likes.
asciilifeform: i ain't about to try to get people to swear to eternal secrecy.
mircea_popescu: imo it's a way better story if it goes "and then google patched with bated breath WITHIN MINUTES"
asciilifeform: google is a big bag of printolade, is all.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: crapple patches jailbreaks within day or 2 of learning about'em.
asciilifeform: i have nfi if they do it using coolies in romania working for food, or with what else. but there it is.
mircea_popescu: holy shit oxigen line punctured. aite, ima be back in a few, this just became a hazardous environment o.O
asciilifeform: bahaha mircea_popescu has piped gasses?!
asciilifeform: ( can i hit him up for some ln2 when i visit ?? )
deedbot: << Qntra - Texas Struggling To Produce Non-Fouling Bunker Fuel
a111: Logged on 2017-10-22 14:54 asciilifeform: aaalso why are there signs warning of buried ~oxygen~ pipes !
asciilifeform: !Q later tell trinque would it be possible to set up a public address that will auto-add to the pot when sent coin to ?
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: can i get the copyright r ?
trinque: asciilifeform: just register a nick that represents the pot, have folks !!pay that nick
lobbesbot: trinque: Sent 1 minute ago: <asciilifeform> would it be possible to set up a public address that will auto-add to the pot when sent coin to ?
asciilifeform: trinque: idea is, heathens could donate anon ( admittedly tall order, that any want to )
asciilifeform: on 2nd thought possibly bad idea, if contest ends without a winner, what to do about them.
trinque: yep, thing works best if there's always a somebody on the other end, of course.
asciilifeform: trinque: there's a pretty good chance that the prize will not be claimed.
trinque: no such automatic reader of address balance is currently in the loop. process by which I confirm deposits is unspecified, varies.
asciilifeform: theoretically as soon as phf gets his snake going, and gives green light, we can start.
phf: asciilifeform: so i was going by to where you lay out your requirements for "successful crack", which make sense
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 19:44 asciilifeform: for my purposes, a proper break is when i can load in arbitrary firmware in place of the vendor's.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 19:50 asciilifeform: i'ma brb, teatime
asciilifeform: phf: correct, full overwrite of whole 256kB fw space with arbitrary bits . repeatably.
phf: the discussions after that though are all over the place, and introduce some requirements that i don't think i can arbitrate like "didn't leak the code back to google"
asciilifeform: phf: i described a coupla min ago, upthread, how.
asciilifeform: after $time , phf goes and buys, from amazon, a c101pa , and administers the pill. if it is cured just the same as his current one, the other half of prize is to be awarded.
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: It's there now
phf: yes, but if you are going to establish a procedure why do you need an arbitrator, or in other words, i don't see a point of separate arbitrator if the process is your own
asciilifeform: it is to be specified that if during $period the machine becomes unavailable in retail, the 2nd half of prize condition is thereby unmet.
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: ty
asciilifeform: phf: i need an arbiter so as to give players some amt of confidence that rules will not change underneath them.
asciilifeform: and generally treasurer and instigator oughta be different people. as in the trb foundation.
asciilifeform: phf: i fully expect that the winner will want to publish his discovery. hence i would like to give an incentive for him to wait a reasonable time.
asciilifeform: so that i can acquire a supply of curable boxen.
asciilifeform: after that he can go and collect his $500k or whatever, if he can, from enemy.
phf: asciilifeform: i see, i'm sorry, but i don't think i can properly be called a referee under these conditions. i can do independent testing for you though, i.e. test against current c101pa, and against one that i purchase at a time you indicate.
asciilifeform: ok i guess we need a new referee.
asciilifeform: any takers ?
asciilifeform: trinque, wanne be referee ?
asciilifeform: really ideally somebody outside of usa , so they can't simply break down the door
asciilifeform: ... jurov ? diana_coman ?
trinque lacks the machines and spare hands, and yes, ass located square in natoreich
asciilifeform: if we can't get somebody other than asciilifeform to stand up as referee, can't really have this contest imho. and a pill that gets immediately patched against by enemy , is of no use.
asciilifeform: i'm not about to ask mircea_popescu to buy us 500 boxes prior to discovery of pill.
asciilifeform: it'd be a quite pricey pile of poor hammers.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, in between the tank and the valve, fucking bullshit hecho en mexico nonsense.
mircea_popescu: wtf is this world coming to. i just vented a few m3 into the biodiversidad
asciilifeform: dare i to ask why mircea_popescu keeps the tank around
mircea_popescu: eh, amateur metallurgy is a bdsm mainstay.
mircea_popescu: all the collars and whatnot.
asciilifeform: i considered o2 for the laser, could cut sheet metal if i substituted o2 in place of the air column, but hesitated, keeping tank in unvented shed is invitation for trouble
mircea_popescu: "oh it dun do anything, it's just oxigen" "sure. until the day it does something, then you'll really see a show"
asciilifeform: do the pets know not to grease the threads, lol
asciilifeform: ( ever see 'vhs america' film 'man without a face' ? )
mircea_popescu: i dun recall. which was this ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, grease is gone, all teflon nowadays.
asciilifeform: oh hm orig english title was 'darkman'
asciilifeform: trash film. but included scene where 'drinky bird' with greased head was detonator, under o2 tank
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, fwi, "No word from oil insiders on interest in the shambling cryptographic provenance solutions still in search of a problem to solve and customers to buy it; but this has not deterred Team Cockchain ("Smokin' it!" ™®) from announcing eleventeen different projects to disrupt this massive industry from its mother's basement." makes 0 sense to me.
asciilifeform: i had nfi mircea_popescu welded !! world turned upside down!1111
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i was just looking on.
asciilifeform: get'em a tig rig.
mircea_popescu: << in perhaps better formulation, the very point of having arbiter is so as to avoid exam taking ; the whole point of having "written contract" (import here pizarro's coc, import here the "opposable instrument" thread with trinque, etc) is to permit exam taking. these are contrary design constraints.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 00:07 phf: yes, but if you are going to establish a procedure why do you need an arbitrator, or in other words, i don't see a point of separate arbitrator if the process is your own
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aite, how wouldja do it ?
mircea_popescu: but i'm not doing it, am i ? i dunno how i'd do it ; i'm also not against exercising the doing it muscle, but commetary is part and parcel of the exercising.
mircea_popescu: note however that practice is alligned : when you protested (essentially) that the tits thing is being exam-took, i ignored it, specifically because... it was specified!
mircea_popescu: see what i mean ?
mircea_popescu: gotta pick what you pick ; and as per the common sense notion, if your job isn't a good fit for any tool, your job's not a well defined job.
asciilifeform: as it is, i'm pretty satisfied with my tentative formulation.
asciilifeform: it is not difficult to mechanically test, either.
mircea_popescu: so then whatcha need arbiter for.
asciilifeform: for not being '1 man band'.
mircea_popescu: what's the problem with that ?
asciilifeform: if i can't get another d00d to play the tuba while i do the drums, what merit can there be in contest.
mircea_popescu: so far it's not altogether clear what specifically other dood's to do.
mircea_popescu: << not to mention he still has a pile of whatever they were, from last time.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 00:16 asciilifeform: i'm not about to ask mircea_popescu to buy us 500 boxes prior to discovery of pill.
asciilifeform: pretty clear imho. obtain a c101pa. obtain the snake ( schematic on asciilifeform's www . ) send to asciilifeform the output of the . then, judge prospective winners , under condition . if pill permits overwriting all 256k of the chip, with arbitrary contents , we have a winner. then month later, .
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 23:39 asciilifeform: phf: you will test using your c101pa. and so you will need the debug snake, i will need to put the output of sysinfo , ver , brd , etc cr50 console commands into the statement.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 00:06 asciilifeform: phf: correct, full overwrite of whole 256kB fw space with arbitrary bits . repeatably.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 00:07 asciilifeform: after $time , phf goes and buys, from amazon, a c101pa , and administers the pill. if it is cured just the same as his current one, the other half of prize is to be awarded.
phf: << right. it's also not a good idea for an arbiter to sign someone else's exam, as if it's anything but. i've offered to run the proposed experiments without arbitrating, but that's not what ascii wants.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 00:30 mircea_popescu: << in perhaps better formulation, the very point of having arbiter is so as to avoid exam taking ; the whole point of having "written contract" (import here pizarro's coc, import here the "opposable instrument" thread with trinque, etc) is to permit exam taking. these are contrary design constraints.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pogo ? they're as usable as ever as soon as somebody gets trb into 256MB, lol
asciilifeform: phf: i am happy that you are willing to experiment. and if yer not feeling up to the job of contest arbiter, that's allright.
mircea_popescu: by now they cost more in storage than they cost to acquire, even though patriotic republicans' have been eating the cost for us.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: supply of clean comps will become valuable as the resource dries up, which it shows every sign of heading to do.
asciilifeform: picture if you had piled up x60's 10y ago.
mircea_popescu: in general. but converting the general to practically actionable bits is usually the challenge.
mircea_popescu: um... it'd have been a terrible deal.
mircea_popescu: what, x60 are worth money ?
asciilifeform: lol no it wouldn't, i'd prolly buy a coupla dozen.
asciilifeform: and betcha phf ditto
phf: asciilifeform: i'm up for a job of contest arbiter, i don't think that what you're proposing is arbitration. i thought that you're going to give goals, and it's up to me to evaluate if the goals have been achieved. but you want me to merely verify your procedure. that's fine, but that doesn't make me an arbitrator.
asciilifeform: phf: i gave goals, what's the problem again ?
mircea_popescu: the $500 lenovo mini laptop things ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the non-ME-intel ones
asciilifeform: actually a pre-lenovo design
asciilifeform: the thing for which asciilifeform made a cured bios
asciilifeform: ( and rms falsely claimed to )
mircea_popescu: i think i have one right here. from ~period. it's a workhorse, sure, and it paid for itself many times over, but...
asciilifeform: point being, yes, in clean and working condition (i.e. with not yet faded tubes, for instance) these are yes valuable.
asciilifeform: and nonrenewable resource.
asciilifeform: remember yer trinitron.
mircea_popescu: somehow i've not bought another.
asciilifeform: betcha you couldn't even if wanted to.
asciilifeform: there are not so many left that have life in'em.
mircea_popescu: i bet you i could, if i wanted to. there's plenty of old crap here.
asciilifeform: precisely OLD crap
asciilifeform: old trinitron, with fade, is worth about fiddybux.
asciilifeform: if that.
asciilifeform: new-in-box , genuine item , was worth about 1k usd few yrs ago. and pretty much extinct last i saw.
mircea_popescu: well like it or not, it's old crap. the thinkpad sitting sadly on a chair 2gb ram and a fucking pentium
asciilifeform: there's oldcrap, and there's simply old.
asciilifeform: oldie goldie.
mircea_popescu: i think you conflate economics and coolness. for one thing, an original trinitron bought the year sony came out with them was like 5k ? or some shit like that. for the other thing, 1k from 1988 is like 10-15k today. so... i don't see the $100k price tag that'd merely cover inflation.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the same money put in bitcoin went from $2 to whatever the fuck.
asciilifeform: difficult to 'cover the $100k' when lemon market.
mircea_popescu: soooo...
asciilifeform: lemon market is not forever, potentially.
mircea_popescu: same reasoning drives the bolix museumists.
mircea_popescu: and it works ~same for them, too.
asciilifeform: bolix routinely changes hands for price of ~toyoya.
mircea_popescu: and you see the problem with this ?
asciilifeform: i see a number of problems, 'it wasn't worth buying for $ 600' aint one.
mircea_popescu: kim kardashian also routinely changes hands for price of ~lawnmower ; doesn't mean she's any good. they just like having their picture taken with her.
asciilifeform: there's a finite, currently large but monotonically dwindling, number of non-nsa comps.
mircea_popescu: but back to it : i see the value in taking a magic marker to the outside track of google's "drm". i do not see the value in your hairebrained scheme to make a business out of it.
asciilifeform: to precisely price them, is beyond not only asciilifeform , but the gods themselves.
mircea_popescu: (anyone even recall those lulz ?)
asciilifeform: in re pogo in particular, i dun recall a particular +ev biznis plan for'em . they were , in mircea_popescu's exact, iirc, words, a reserve fleet.
asciilifeform: is what i meant.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the value here is "lol @google", not "oh, ima sell 500 laptops for 0.01 btc profit per".
asciilifeform: incidentally the whole fleet cost about 300 bux; i.e. the cost of 1 c101pa-tron.
mircea_popescu: pretty sure it was a few grand.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-12 21:02 asciilifeform: it isn't even wholly about the machines, from asciilifeform's pov, asciilifeform would like to see the enemy bleed some, hear the laments , see the mules driven before him, etc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cost on my end , to buy and transport, was about 300bux. now you can prolly turn this into a few grand, if you compare against 'keep coin in pocket' , sure
asciilifeform: but by this token nothing ever wins against 'keep in pocket' afaik.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, buy and transport what ?
asciilifeform: pogo container
mircea_popescu: dood, danielpbarron had like a whole crate of them.
asciilifeform: speaking specifically of the one asciilifeform delivered
asciilifeform: i cannot comment on danielpbarron's
mircea_popescu: because why ?
mircea_popescu: lol. mkay.
asciilifeform: because i do not know how many mircea_popescu obtained via danielpbarron , lol
asciilifeform: it wasn't my doing , from that point.
asciilifeform: is all.
mircea_popescu: well, say they were 500 heh ? SINCE IT WAS YOUR NUMBER
asciilifeform: and if comes the hour that we need 500 clean boxes, for whatever, e.g. unattended shortwave relays, there they are.
mircea_popescu: anyway, your design is dysfunctional in that (even allowing for it modelling somewhat close to reality, which i have no faith it does) suppose today someone gives you a working pill, and june 27th google patches the hole. and the someone says "dood, i have nfi, i honestly didn't tell anyone anything".
asciilifeform: what of it ?
mircea_popescu: it's perfectly possible google just fixed it on their own. and now you want phf to decide this somehow ? fucking how ?
asciilifeform: nope, i do not ask phf to decide. the condition is clean cut, like guillotine.
asciilifeform: hole still worx after month ? 2nd half of prize. no worky ? no 2nd half.
mircea_popescu: and you imagine complicated injustice is better than just a shrug and a pat on the ass ?
asciilifeform: player dun like it ? can stuff it.
mircea_popescu: because it ain't.
asciilifeform: i do not see the injustice. contest can ~only~ operate on facts, not suppositions.
asciilifeform: it literally does not matter to me ~why~ hole got closed on 27th.
mircea_popescu: fact is dood gave you what you wanted.
mircea_popescu: supposition -- entirely on your side.
asciilifeform: because player cannot prove that he did not sell it to google on the 5th.
mircea_popescu: nobody is to be held to prove negatives.
mircea_popescu: you also can't prove you don't have cancer.
asciilifeform: exactly. hence the mechanical cut.
mircea_popescu: i should like to see your oncology clinic.
mircea_popescu: as a visitor only, however.
asciilifeform: understand, i have no use whatsoever for a hole that gets sent to google immediately upon discovery. i would not only not pay a coin for ~that~, but would not pay a $1 bill.
asciilifeform: at any rate currently i dun even have a referee. chances are that there will be no game.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the key to communication, which is what you do when you try to engage others, is that you step outside of what you have need for, and speak of something ~they~ can relate to.
mircea_popescu: you may have no need, but putative player has no way to control wtf will hapen in a month.
asciilifeform: he does not, correct. therefore he is to be cognizant that he is taking a chance.
asciilifeform: but in any case it must be in his interest to not immediately run to enemy.
mircea_popescu: well, to me this seems a much larger risk than the possible insolvency of alf.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu can think of some kindler, gentler means of arranging this incentive, asciilifeform is all ears
asciilifeform: but asciilifeform has NO desire to simply pile btc on top of google's 500k or whatver, bounty.
mircea_popescu: seems to me that if the one is looking to eat out of his work, he'll likely not even know you exist. because the sort of people dumb enough to depend on their daily labour for their sustenance while at the same time smart enough to reverse engineer are a very narrowly defined set. one is guaranteedly pantsuit.
mircea_popescu: whereas if he knows about you, it seems altogether unlikely he'd even consider talking to google about it, and for the same reasons.
mircea_popescu: so... i can't imagine the problem you're trying tro approach even exists, which is why i can't come up with a way to solve it.
asciilifeform: by this logic ( and i suspect that mircea_popescu is right , in earlier thread ) there's no point .
mircea_popescu: well looky, i'm not trying to ruin your fun here, but if yo uwant me to try an follow along ima try as best i can. so far, it's not taking me far.
asciilifeform: if it's dead in the water, what fun.
asciilifeform: i dun ask mircea_popescu to stroke my fur and say 'it will all surely work', the gods gave us mircea_popescu specifically to say 'eh this is dumb'
mircea_popescu: it's not even dumb, it's like a pcb with a large hole in the middle.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff i got one of those right here
asciilifeform: worx great
asciilifeform: ( it's a radio with air core transformer.. )
mircea_popescu: "hands off my tube tv!!"
asciilifeform recently set up a (rx-only , for nao ) shortwave thing
asciilifeform: !!up loper_os_cr50
mircea_popescu: !!up loper_os_cr50
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes.
deedbot: loper_os_cr50 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: loper_os_cr50: hey
phf: asciilifeform: my thinking is that your goals ("didn't leak to google") ought to be separate from the testing procedures ("can buy from amazon in a month"). some of your goals are potentially untestable and it's up to whoever's doing independent verification to come up with the procedure for testing, or dismiss the goal as untestable. then up to you to either find a different arbiter, or agree not to pursue one of the goals. i think that providing both
phf: goals and procedures inadvertently put the arbiter in the position of affirming that the goal has been or been not achieved but without following own procedures. in other words you want me to potentially call that the source has been leaked to google, but rely on a procedure that i can't possibly consider adequate for the verification.
asciilifeform: phf: i'm still waiting to hear why the test algo i proposed, somehow resolves to 'untestable'
asciilifeform: imho it is as testable as 'factor this key'
mircea_popescu: but not as meaningful.
mircea_popescu: "yes, 3=3, however that did not do anything".
asciilifeform: meaningful. i either get a pile of c101pa with rewritable cr50 256kB firmwares, or not.
asciilifeform: pretty simple test.
phf: mircea_popescu: _procedure_ is testable, but it doesn't necessarily verify the _goal_ (following my adhoc terminology above)
phf: err asciilifeform: ^
asciilifeform: if phf can think of a way to 'game' the 'exam', i'm all ears.
asciilifeform: but the problem of making it impossible ~mechanically~ is unsolvable in the general case. and cannot be done in any contest, this or other.
asciilifeform: hence the role of referee.
asciilifeform: imho i have described enough of a mechanical litmus, that a referee can stand on solid ground.
asciilifeform: phf: if you still feel like refereeing, feel free to propose own set of procedure , to asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: ( if 'he made this bizarre algo and i cannot make heads or tails of it' is the obstacle )
mircea_popescu: consider this : i set up a tent at porcfest, advertising "mp slavegirl intake". and there is sure enough a lengthy line of bikini clad beauties before it. i also put slavegirl in tent, and instruct her to reject the ugly ones. ugliness is "mechanically testably alf 3.o" defined as "lacks third tit". end of day, my slavegirl's pretty downcast.
mircea_popescu: "what the fuck is your problem ?" "i just spent all day telling teenagers they're ugly because they don't have three tits".
phf: i don't think "can still buy and diddle of amazon in a month" is adequate test for "didn't leak the patch to google". but i don't think there's a procedure to test the goal in general (see absence of evidence above). perhaps you could restate the goal, but then whatever restatement i'm not sure it will be under the control of the participant. in fact as mircea_popescu pointed out, a restatement of this particular goal simply introduces a random element
phf: outside of participants control to the game.
asciilifeform: phf: it is impossible to make the receipt of the 2nd half of prize fully in the hands of the player, this is entirely correct.
asciilifeform: however there MUST be some incentive not to go straight to enemy.
mircea_popescu: maybe you should offer marriage
asciilifeform: i dun swing that way..
mircea_popescu: a review of extant literaturer shows this is the only known-to-work example of a cut to your problem.
mircea_popescu: well, scholarship only helps in the way it helps, what can i tell you.
phf: gentleman's word, if only there was a mechanism to verify a gentleman's trustworthiness
asciilifeform: i dun see what's wrong with a 'pill WILL work month later, even if you have to go and hbomb google hq' clause. )
asciilifeform: formulated simply as 'to get other half of prize, it will be the case that vendor update month from submission day, does not contain patch for hole'
mircea_popescu: "get third tit implants!! UGLY FUCKERS!!!"
mircea_popescu: it may be the case, now and again, that your own fetishes aren't a worldwide concern.
asciilifeform: if were 'worldwide concern' problem'd be licked already, neh.
asciilifeform: hence idea, i put actual coin in.
mircea_popescu: i don't think money works like you think it does.
asciilifeform: likely not !
asciilifeform: i dun think i actually disagree with mircea_popescu , re: whether there will be a winner.
asciilifeform: quite likely there will not.
asciilifeform: what i would like to avoid, however, is the fucking trannies.
asciilifeform: the 'whinners', if you will.
mircea_popescu: this is a more difficult thing than you think.
asciilifeform: it isn't trivial. but i can only with difficulty picture a contest where it is easier than in this one.
mircea_popescu: the more i think about this, the more i want alf to be in charge of all sorts of things. imagine alf-run horsetrack.
asciilifeform: esp. given a politically reliable ( and why shouldn't he be ) referee.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do they still have human referees at horse tracks ? i thought it was all laser nao..
mircea_popescu: "this opera is only good if building not flooded during a nine week interval after itwas played"
mircea_popescu: "to prove it was not insult to god of the rain"
asciilifeform: actually plenty of biznis worx like this. i had a squirrel exterminator make precisely this guarantee, on paper.
mircea_popescu: as a statistical approach.
asciilifeform: 'if they reappear in $period, obligated to rework for $0'
mircea_popescu: your remedy is... he comes does it over.
asciilifeform: legendarily , in ming china, doctor was paid while patient was alive and healthy
mircea_popescu: hence -- marriage. that prostitution contract whereby if the fuck doesn't take, worker's obliged to re-do.
asciilifeform: we're contemplating a 4 wk marriage, of sorts, i guess.
asciilifeform: if iran can have 4hr marriages, why not this.
mircea_popescu: maybe ~THEY~ don't swing that way ?
asciilifeform: i mean, already ~all i expect from $contest is a slightly taller than usual pile of 'you suxxx!!' mail
mircea_popescu: this is starting to sound like addiction!
asciilifeform: but if it dun get tried, than it won't have been tried. or sumthinglikethat.
mircea_popescu: i'd like alf state lottery. "if you win and after 10 years are poor, you win again"
asciilifeform: thus far asciilifeform seems to be the only one among the thinking folx who thinks that this idea had any life in it. so i suppose i'll shelf it for nao..
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: naaa, moar like 'if you win and poor after 10y, we sell you into afghan goat slavery'
mircea_popescu: i think the principal result of the discussion is, "can't have multi-pronged or articulated contests"
mircea_popescu: either can have arbitered contest, which defines a goal in human lang ; or else can have exam, which defines a final state, in machine lang.
asciilifeform: well as i understand it , mircea_popescu dun like one of the proposed goals because it includes an element of chance
asciilifeform: (i.e. 'what if enemy , on own power, finds the hole within $period' )
mircea_popescu: no, the objection is to the mix. if you want to specify, then you must specify. if you're going to "incluide an element of chance", then the specification pretense is spurious.
mircea_popescu: there's no such thing as chainsaws sold with elements of chance.
asciilifeform: what exactly is wrong with 'if, for any reason whatsoever, pill doesn't work in fw released on aug 1, the 2nd half of prize will be returned to the pot contributors' ?
mircea_popescu: that it sounds exatly like a scam.
mircea_popescu: consider : i give you pill, you sell it to google, you tell me it's my fault.
asciilifeform: all contests promising coin sound like scam, neh
asciilifeform: who even believes that coin can be had.
mircea_popescu: or you never even thought of this ?
asciilifeform: of course thought.
mircea_popescu: so then ?
asciilifeform: player only trusts us ( well, referee in person ) in so far as he trusts.
mircea_popescu: and if you want to be trusted, why aren't you trusting ?
asciilifeform: which is 1 reason why such contests are thin on the ground.
asciilifeform: because i trust heathens about as far as i can throw'em ?
mircea_popescu: what can i tell ya.
asciilifeform: i suppose we can revisit $thread if somebody l1 says 'i wanna referee'...
phf: also contest starts around the time that ascii publishes articles on subj, conceivable that someone else decides to look at the cr50, white hats a vulnerability to google.
asciilifeform: phf: also possible !
asciilifeform: what can i say.
asciilifeform: thing is more or less guaranteed to get some attention in enemy camp.
asciilifeform: on top of whatever massage already done ( and much as i hate to say it, it seems like a fairly high quality boobytrap )
asciilifeform: y'know, sorta like those italian all-plastic mines with three anti-handling detonators.
asciilifeform: all in all, i'd rather not have the contest at all, than to chance to give coin to fucking alice_m to add coin cherry to the top of a google bounty cake.
asciilifeform: phf: speaking of which, consider the easiest winner , if the anti-patch condition is absent -- a google shitmonkey who knows the hole already and 'wins' on the monday right prior to patch tuesday.
mircea_popescu: it's entirely there, that's exactly how this "foss" shit works, by sexiness.
mircea_popescu: there's even a trilema about it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, overwhelmingly likely.
mircea_popescu: and who thereby makes you an instrument of fucking up the market for people who genuinely put sweat in. and so on.
phf: asciilifeform: yes. a bounty is open to all comers, even the dude's brother.
asciilifeform: phf: right, hence the '2nd half' clause.
asciilifeform: but if it can't be done to mircea_popescu's satisfaction, i'd rather not do it at all.
mircea_popescu: i tell you i dun see this as it stands.
phf: "wanted: johnny pistolas. $1000 dead or alive. bounty not accepted from relatives."
asciilifeform: phf: no, again, 'bounty not accepted if he turns up alive within month of 'his' head being brought in'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, notice how well arbitering works! i have no way to specify ~whether~ im actually paying a coin into this shipile or not. NOR DO I CARE. i'm just letting you arbiter.
mircea_popescu: phf, "bounty $100 paid for any information of whereabouts of dangerous criminal, except if he shoots the police and escapes"
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu doesn't see how the contest can be set up without creating a refereeing clusterfuck, or enriching alice_m, then i refuse to ask him to put any coin into any such thing.
asciilifeform: but if one of the folx tuned in, knows how to make the binomial add up, plox to write in.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, honestly, it was a pretty entertaining and informatrive discussion, by my lights. what mosfilm always wanted to make and never managed.
asciilifeform: verily.
mircea_popescu: !!up kiboneu
deedbot: kiboneu voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: cnomad, having trouble with the dingbat ?
cnomad: yeah
mircea_popescu: do it here.
cnomad: is the competition you guys are referring to for popping that chip?
cnomad: !!up
deedbot: You must be registered.
cnomad: idk w/e
asciilifeform: cnomad: yes
mircea_popescu: trinque, wth ?!
mircea_popescu: !!key cnomad
mircea_popescu: cnomad, might have run into some oddball bug or something, we'll see what maintainer sez.
asciilifeform: he doesn't show up in the deedbot www yet
asciilifeform: but possibly that one's nonrealtime
cnomad: so, some advice, if you want -- competition format for long term research is not a great motivator, since it doesn't guarantee that someone will get paid for their time
mircea_popescu: that one -- once a day. but afaik "is registered" == "!!key outputs"
asciilifeform: cnomad: we ain't about to pay for 'tried'
cnomad: like if 2 ppl work on the chip, someone pops it first,
asciilifeform: at least, asciilifeform isn't
cnomad: right but you see what I'm saying?
asciilifeform: certainly.
asciilifeform: there is no solution, however.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, understand the problem he describes. if arbitrarily prize is 1k, work required to pop is 1k, and 1k people participate, you are likely to pay about 0.5 per unit work.
cnomad: you need to assemble a team of people and pay them according to a statement of work.
mircea_popescu: yes you pay 1k for the pop ; but the long graph of sub-1k effort adds up to maybe even multiples of 1k.
asciilifeform: yes, and there is not actually, afaik, any possibility of a solution to such a problem.
mircea_popescu: anyway, ima be off to steaks. laters!
cnomad: success isn't guaranteed but you could make a lot of headway for future research
cnomad: anyway, just food for thought
trinque: gpg: 7BD5B50222D7457B9710CF728D6436492F4A69AF: skipped: unusable public key
asciilifeform: cnomad: i ain't about to sponsor a team of lunch eaters.
trinque: as the case tends to be
trinque: so lemme go see why
trinque: expired, as usual.
asciilifeform: cnomad: idea of contest, i found appealing because 1) inexpensive 2) simple , relatively, to administer, and does not require 'teams' of jobsworths.
trinque: cnomad: why did you put an expired key into poor deedbot?
cnomad: no it expires in november
cnomad: prolly looking at a subkey
asciilifeform: cnomad: all of your subkeys seem to have expired
trinque: I'm looking at what ended up in deedbot's keyring when you fed it that key
asciilifeform: the newest, in 2016.
asciilifeform: are you posting through a time-warp, cnomad ?
cnomad: pub rsa4096/0x8D6436492F4A69AF 2015-11-14 [SC] [expires: 2018-11-10]
cnomad: 7BD5B50222D7457B9710CF728D6436492F4A69AF
cnomad: uid [ultimate] Kiboneu <*>
cnomad: sub rsa4096/0x493D43E595D52480 2015-11-14 [E] [expires: 2018-11-10]
asciilifeform: not in this key !!
trinque: also use the paster next time
asciilifeform: the paste shows what is in the key that deedbot saw.
asciilifeform: cnomad: somehow you gave deedbot a key from before you re-signed the rsa4096/0x8D6436492F4A69AF one
asciilifeform: ( prolly you kept it around somewhere ? )
cnomad: oh
cnomad: i guess i didn't update my site
cnomad: one moment
asciilifeform did this at least 1ce, prior to 'fucking, i'ma dispense with the expiration nonsense'
cnomad: ok update my site
cnomad: anyway
cnomad: it might be harder to assemble a team than a contest, but you'll prolly have better results
asciilifeform: revisiting upstack : i categorically refuse to pay for any cr50 related work that does not produce a working and practically applicable pill. because there is no way to ensure that 'paid to advance art' rather than 'paid 10 derps' mortgages and student loans'
cnomad: well that's where reputation comes into play
asciilifeform: cnomad: on the contrary, the shitstack that passes for modern pc and its soft, is result of 'hire a team'.
asciilifeform: i want no part of this.
cnomad: heh
cnomad: ok
asciilifeform: it'd be an invitation for every possible fucking parasite, not to mention 'law abiding citizens' etc
asciilifeform: cnomad: at any rate, if you read today's log, you will know that there probably will not be any such contest.
asciilifeform: seems like nobody can figure out a satisfying set of rules.
trinque: cnomad: expect me to go looking for your key or what?
asciilifeform: cnomad: you gotta re-reg that key, if you want it to work
asciilifeform: with the nonexpired one.
trinque: no, he has to hand it to me now in a paste
trinque: no, I'm not doing this for you again in November.
cnomad: ok then don't
asciilifeform: cnomad: i recommend to switch off expiration, it never did anybody any good.
cnomad: i'll get to it when i get to it
asciilifeform: ( there is a historic thread on the subj, that i cannot presently find )
trinque: what's this 14 year old cunt routine now?
asciilifeform: trinque: cut the fella a bit of slack, he doesn't yet grasp that he's come to olympus, thinks he's in village pub still
trinque: this isn't comcast technical support, might find me getting to it when I get to it too.
cnomad: you're the one who asked me
cnomad: lol
cnomad: anyway, good luck with your project
asciilifeform: doubt we'll be seeing him again.
asciilifeform: might have to wait another yr to get a new n00b with half a brain.
asciilifeform: ( i daren't to even dream about finding ones with ~whole~ )
asciilifeform: 'in the great birdlessness, my arse is a nightingale' -- asciilifeform's grandfather .
trinque: deedbot has to be one of the longest running and most reliable services here
asciilifeform: i have 0 complaint re deedbot.
asciilifeform: nor do i expect trinque to massage folx on demand and for phree.
asciilifeform: i'dve let this one live tho.
trinque: I dun recall kicking, or even telling the guy to leave.
asciilifeform: '14 year old cunt routine' to uninvested intelligent n00b is not so diff. but watever.
asciilifeform: possibly easily disheartened folk, we're better without, this is defensible. i've nfi.
trinque stopped what he was doing to help, guy couldn't lift a finger.
asciilifeform: d00d prolly saw 'wtf masonic ritual, why am i here, in kitchen there is vodka and it won't drink itself'
asciilifeform: but sure.
asciilifeform: speaking of which, i'ma bbl.
mod6 is finally caught up
mod6: evenin'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, did you just cost me a dime ?
mircea_popescu: in other news, this doris thing sure knows its steaks!
mircea_popescu: << the sad part is that work has to be done whether it produces anything or not.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-13 01:49 asciilifeform: revisiting upstack : i categorically refuse to pay for any cr50 related work that does not produce a working and practically applicable pill. because there is no way to ensure that 'paid to advance art' rather than 'paid 10 derps' mortgages and student loans'
mircea_popescu: though, amusingly, the costa rican standard of food service is "solo bueno", which literally means they'll waive charges for items you didn;t like.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if d00d never returns, he'll get gc'd at some point, neh
mircea_popescu: not afaik ?
asciilifeform: ( trinque , what exactly is done to these ? )
mircea_popescu: i'm in an impossible situation, on one hand this happens to be the correct approach i'm deploying, not dumbass contests. on the other...
mircea_popescu: "oh, don't send bitcoin to noobs unprepared to appreciate what it is".
mircea_popescu: fuck me rwanda.
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform doesn't throw coins at folx who aint even truly born yet. but asciilifeform worx with much smaller budget .
mircea_popescu: and how do you get them to "truly born" ?
asciilifeform: varies. i dun recall e.g. spyked , or ave1 , getting coin thrown at
asciilifeform: ( tho iirc ave1 did get a FG at some point )
mircea_popescu: i have no idea what you're talking aboot.
trinque: any transfers the dood got are right there, waiting for him to politely give me a nonexpiring key
asciilifeform: trinque: out of curiosity, how come deedbot even cares re the expir date thing ?
asciilifeform: what's the win
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