asciilifeform: in other entomological curios, https://golang.org/src/math/big/nat.go << a popular heathen bignumtron. replete with branches-on-secret, pointerolade, various liquishit
ave1: asciilifeform, I'm reading trough chapter 2 and I've tried to get inlining to work, but so far have failed, nothing gets inlined outside of the defining module!
ave1: also, The "Inline_Always" pragma's seem to in the wrong part of the code (but does not help moving"
ave1: i.e. when running with "-gnatwa", I get " warning: pragma appears too late, ignored"
ave1: o wait, that is only in combination with "-gnatN", so ignore the Inline_Always comment
asciilifeform: ave1: where didja get gnatN
asciilifeform: and why
asciilifeform: ave1: and on which gnat are you ?
asciilifeform: i'm not a telepath, but somehow nobody thinks to preface their observations with 'i was using gnat xxxxx, which i got from...'
ave1: adacore 2016
ave1: as for the switch, in old docu it is here: https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.1.2/gnat_ugn_unw/Switches-for-gcc.html#ndex-g_t_0040option_007b_002dgnatm_007d-_0028_0040command_007bgcc_007d_0029-125
asciilifeform: why the fuck did you USE this flag tho
asciilifeform: it suppressed inlining
asciilifeform: do i misunderstand what ave1's complaint is ?
ave1: but also adacore docs i see: http://sandbox.mc.edu/~bennet/ada/gnat_ug/gnat_ug_4.html#SEC46
asciilifeform: consider answering the question, ave1 ?
asciilifeform: why. did. you. use. this. flag.
ave1: I was debugging the code and saw that the functions where not inlined "FZ_Clear", "FZ_*" etc.
ave1: So, I started to try commandline options
asciilifeform: ave1: tell me how you determined that they were not inlined
asciilifeform: lemme guess, you disasmed the bin and saw them as functions ?
asciilifeform: this is a known bug in 2016, and is a red herring, they still get inlined
asciilifeform: AND included as functions
asciilifeform: you can trivially verify the latter by commenting out the Inline param and observing 5-20x speed differential
asciilifeform brb, teatime
ave1: Ok I will check further into the code, bbl
ave1: strange that in disasm I see call <fz_...>, but will try more!
asciilifeform: ave1: you see this for all of the invocations ? and 0 speed diff when removing ( not -gnatN, but remove, with sed ) ~all~ of the inline directives ?
asciilifeform: ave1: and plz post the output of gnat -v .
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 8645.0, vol: 48371.39034759 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 8715.0, vol: 132537.62411117 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 8648.0, vol: 21943.4396069 | Volume-weighted last average: 8691.06039424
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mod6: try as i might, i can't picture how a photo would help to exploit yer box ( aside from the 'tells enemy which rack to dynamite' aspect, but mp_en_viaje addressed that one earlier ) << Ah, datacenter fellow expressed some bemused curiosity about the unbranded Qntra machine. Apparently everything else is plastered in brand names because latino rather than assembled into generic steel chicom chassis
BingoBoingo: <trinque> BingoBoingo: when do you anticipate having a final number for 1U of space, and when do you plan on beginning to rack customer machines? << I am putting out solicitations for hardware again to the local shops today. Will squeeze in a pricing post today for the Republic's consideration.
BingoBoingo: A lot of the locally availabe refurb stuff is fat guys like http://www.okcomputers-uy.com/productos/productos_masinfo.php?id=4382&secc=productos&path=0.42.108
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: where is the price on that page ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Gotta inquire because the shops dun know how to web right
asciilifeform: or lol, 'es necesario registrarse'
BingoBoingo: Still, they get an email along the lines of "I am scaling up my business here in Uruguay and need a bunch of 1U server boxes. What can you get as whole computers or empty cases?
asciilifeform: incidentally, BingoBoingo , have you visited local scrapyard yet ?
asciilifeform: i suspect that it has better boxes than the one linked above
asciilifeform: ( and at any rate oughta have empty cases.. )
BingoBoingo: Still haven't found it. Most of the local scrapping industry tends to center around hawking junk finds at la Feria Tristan Narvaja on Sundays.
asciilifeform: it is also possible that this is one of those orcistans where there is not such a thing as a scrapyard, errything gets picked up by scavengers and reused same day
asciilifeform has nfi
BingoBoingo: Beating the garbage truck to the dumpster seems to be a substantial activity here.
trinque: eh the no-prices thing is an orc haggling thing
asciilifeform: 'how many zeroes can we glue on'
trinque: well, it's why I always beat vendors with either other vendor quotes or other quotes from same vendor
asciilifeform: and imho selling 10+ yr old server, prolly complete with fan dust cake, for 'you must ask for quote!' takes some cheek.
BingoBoingo: trinque: Other suppliers list prices, but everyone gets a solicitation.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: that's more or less exactly what i was looking for, ty. not to use, of course, but to adaize.
trinque waits patiently for a gossipd atop which to redo hypertext
asciilifeform: even in this one, i can already see obvious candidates for snippycutters
asciilifeform: e.g. directory listing
asciilifeform: the use of linked lists (wai??)
asciilifeform: HEAD requests
asciilifeform: prolly also other things.
trinque: ^ how are you going to know whether item over there changed without HEAD
asciilifeform: trinque: by loading it.
trinque: that'll make mirroring impossible
asciilifeform: i've never written proggy that issues 'HEAD'
asciilifeform: and don't intend to
asciilifeform: mirroring is to be done the sane way, by fucking loading the file.
trinque: think for a moment eh?
trinque: I have the gentoo distfiles on http
trinque: you're going to what, download the whole hundreds of gb every time you sync?
asciilifeform: if you want to know that file has changed, you update a manifest, and other side fetches that.
trinque: "inbandism" !!11!!
asciilifeform: the http protocol is not the place for manifests.
asciilifeform: trinque: what do we have here that issues HEAD ?
asciilifeform: deedbot's rss doesn't
trinque: that is not an argument
asciilifeform: no srsly
trinque: fucking wget
asciilifeform: we don't use it ? it dies. that simple
trinque: complete nonsense.
asciilifeform: decade+ of reading http log of my www daily, and ~nobody outside of spamchina issues HEAD. ever.
asciilifeform: ditto OPTIONS and other liquishit.
trinque: I will not use an item that can't give me metadata for a given path without loading the potentially gigantic item itself
asciilifeform: aaaand this is how stateolade gets into 'stateless' protocol
asciilifeform: and http servers end up 50MB of ???.
trinque: should the fs require you read() whole file to know file metadata?
trinque: and furthermore the idea that providing just the headers, which already exists as a codepath, and then bailing, adds mb, is idiotic
asciilifeform: my copy of wget doesn't seem to use HEAD for this, tho. it puts out a GET and simply aborts if you ctrl-c
asciilifeform: so you can learn a file size with ordinary GET
asciilifeform: without loading whole thing
trinque: bahaha, yes, you can time your control-c *just so* that you get only headers
trinque: this is not a serious conversation
asciilifeform: well naturally you wouldn't ctrl-c with hands, but break yer connection after you got what you want, i.e. the header
asciilifeform: i dun see why this requires a 'send ONLY the header' special knob to exist.
trinque: --no-if-modified-since uses HEAD, probably others
asciilifeform: trinque: does rsync rely on HEAD ?
asciilifeform: i'm trying to find something that does
asciilifeform: something that i actually keep around
asciilifeform: what other http knobs are there that, despite that neither i nor deedbot nor anything any of us have made , ever use, but somehow essential ??
trinque: lets say you use your "magic file" for mirroring, manifest, then what when the manifest is very large?
asciilifeform: then it oughta be in sections, and the sections in small manifest. merkle-style.
asciilifeform: this is elementary.
trinque: there is no magic amount of space on the receiving end that will always be there!
asciilifeform: there gotta be to hold the http header already.
asciilifeform: all protocols require some minimal space to work in.
asciilifeform: 'sorry i only have 1 bit of storage', picture this.
asciilifeform: 'telegraph office is three doors down'
asciilifeform: having to ask the 'did it change' question per-file, is terrifyingly bad design
trinque: "do I already have the item at $path" and "how big is the item at $path" are interesting questions without the server beginning to transmit the item itself.
trinque: I'm not here to defend HTTP, you are, by trying to fix it
asciilifeform: i'd like to shoot it behind the shed already.
trinque: if you make something sufficiently incompatible with HTTP as is, get rid of it, why fix
trinque: I'm just telling you tools will want things you're muntzing, so why bother trying to fix
asciilifeform: q is, how much can be removed from http and still result in e.g. proper display on typical heathen browser, wget-able tarballs, etc
trinque: however if your replacement can't cough up arbitrary answers *about* items it serves, I wont use it
asciilifeform: trinque: i dun have a replacement, can relax for nao. but would like to know which of the knobs actually do something useful.
asciilifeform: trinque himself had iirc a good argument for removal of PUT and POST
asciilifeform: ( granted this is a bigger bite to swallow ... )
trinque spent enough in the mines *not* to want to fix http
asciilifeform: there's 2 kinds of 'fix'
trinque: to host mp-wp for instance, gonna have to either implement fcgi, cgi, or http proxy back to other http server
asciilifeform: 1 , the subhuman simian kind, where duct tape is added. other -- when screaming living flesh is removed, as necessary.
trinque: ohey, servidores
asciilifeform: trinque: that's exactly the kind of thing i wouldn't do. my hypothetical http serv would be strictly for fully adatronic app. like hunchentoot in cl world.
asciilifeform: you don't miss cgi in hunchentoot.
BingoBoingo: And routers, and not jungle cargo cult "Why would you want a network that isn't WiFi?" inventory selection
asciilifeform: 170 usd for a 20usd label printer, notbad
trinque: in a library http server, one wouldn't implement "HEAD" anyway, would just pass the headers as a structure to w/e handling function, which shits what it likes
asciilifeform: 2k for laser printer
asciilifeform: is this thing connected through a timewarp into 1990s ?
trinque: can put "FART" in the method header now, if you like
asciilifeform: or is this what it all ends up costing after the extortionate tax..?
asciilifeform: trinque: depends what sorta library neh
asciilifeform: just like you don't want to write fs code that knows what inodes are
asciilifeform: likewise i do not ever want to see FARTs.
asciilifeform: recall malleus ?
asciilifeform: the 'postel's law' nonsense, of silently forgiving people who send liquishit at the dusty disused corners of the protocol, enabling there to even ~be~ such a thing as dusty corners in a protocol!, MUST die.
asciilifeform: !#s postel
mod6: nothing for allcomers
trinque: yeah, well, that isn't stateless is it
asciilifeform: mod6: not, sadly, practical with tcp at all
asciilifeform: tcp gives every allcomer a quite-expensive 'something'
trinque: anyhow, I will not begrudge a muntzed http server
trinque: it's just gonna be a sad experience, since it has to be a wartime compromise
asciilifeform: trinque: pretty much anything on the existing iron is wartime compromise.
trinque tries to remember if chunked transfer encoding is both ways with http, or only a response thing
asciilifeform: i'd even be satisfied with something exactly like BingoBoingo's link httpd but minus the nulltermed pointeristic string warcrime. (i.e. direct adaization)
trinque: BingoBoingo: looking like it'd be way cheaper to ship
trinque: these are moon prices
asciilifeform: supposing the shipments get through -- yes
asciilifeform: these prices make asciilifeform+suitcase+airplane for ~every box indididually~ look cost-effective.
trinque: ...surely this datacenter has servers in it? that someone bought?
trinque: BingoBoingo: any recommendations from the DC themselves?
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> or is this what it all ends up costing after the extortionate tax..? << The +IVA means the price is before the tax. Gets hit with a duty when it hits the border, shipping here doesn't seem to have a trivial cost, and something like the label printer there just might not be anyone else selling. But $495 for a $300 in the US ubiquity Edgerouter Pro isn't too bad http://www.palser.com/productos/productos_masinfo.php?id=17661
BingoBoingo: trinque: They appear to be banging their heads talking directly to supermicro
trinque ftr does not have $5k server dealwithit money
asciilifeform: don't forget, 5k ~pentium4~
trinque: BingoBoingo: what's "appear"? how did other people put boxes in their racks?
BingoBoingo: Well, other racks seem to have a lot of towers. My suspicion on the rack mount equipment is the ever popular trip to Miami route.
asciilifeform: holyfuq, konsoomer towers in racks in dc
BingoBoingo: http://www.palser.com/productos/productos_masinfo.php?id=177211&secc=productos&id_color_inic=&path=0.2296.2351 << 1706
asciilifeform: 1disk lol
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> holyfuq, konsoomer towers in racks in dc << Cargo cult
asciilifeform: for comparison, 24core opteron with 256G ram , with 4 ssd disks ( 1TB total , 750 after raid ) , and with the raid card, costs me still < 1700.
asciilifeform: ( granted , i make'em out of a mix of new and used components, like mp makes his bmw fleet . but even so. )
TomServo: There appears to be "- 36 MONTHS PROSUPPORT AND NBO ON-SITE SERVICE" included in the price, which - shouldn't be required, right?
asciilifeform: TomServo: picture trying to ~get~ this support.
TomServo: I would rather not.
asciilifeform: 'support' is a joke.
BingoBoingo: TomServo: This is why I am emailing. See if I can get that shit knocked off
BingoBoingo: And to see if they can get Opteron shit
asciilifeform: also BingoBoingo wtf, they don't sell samsung -- i.e. the only ssd worth using
asciilifeform: srsly yer gonna put intel ssd in a box ?
asciilifeform: or the used-condom quality sandisk ?
phf: i suspect local orcs have alternative paths for procurement, was sop in russia in the 90s. you could go to "official dealer" type place and pay 10x, or you would haggle for price at Gorbushka, bazar style
asciilifeform: ( and lol they do have ~1~ samsung in the catalogue : a 128GB msata ! )
asciilifeform: phf: i strongly suspect that nobody but gringo rubes ever order from these Official catalogues, or pay ANY vat, EVER
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: that loox moar like it. can these be had ?
phf: that would be congruent with the russian practice
asciilifeform: or are these 'pre importation price'
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:53 asciilifeform: HEAD requests
asciilifeform: pretty sure we had a gopher thread
asciilifeform: !#s gopher
a111: Logged on 2017-11-23 16:20 phf: re upstack, there's been a resurgence of sorts of gopher protocol, various hipsters spinning up personal websites, etc. whether the resurgence was shortlived or i'm just late to the game, but there's already a community of wreckers (one of them groups is coming from this federated twitter platform, mastodon) discussing all the various ways that they want to "improve" gopher, tls, utf-8, markdown renderer, "minimal subset of html", etc. but at the same
phf: last time it was brought up was probably due to me, since i was looking into hipster gopher revival that's going on (was going on?)
a111: Logged on 2016-07-18 19:49 asciilifeform: anyone ever tempted to revive gopher ?
phf: i mean, i can see the argument for "no head", but it's one of those cases where "if we don't have head, we'll have to invent it", with e.g. manifests, or cgi scripts that you can use to query for changes, etc. but why not let resource answer things about itself as part of protocol rather than everyone for themselves?
asciilifeform: phf: imho 'what, if anything changed' is a q that oughta be answered by a mechanism that can do it, when (as often is) wanted for the ~entire site~ compactly
phf: fwiw http protocol is built around verbs on resources, cutting head is going to remove the specific mechanism you're dispatching to, but not the dispatch mechanism itself (that you still need for e.g. POST)
asciilifeform: rather than per-file
trinque: yeah, arguable there's a saner way to get metadata, harder to argue getting metadata by itself isn't useful
phf: "what if anything changed" is not the only question that head answers
asciilifeform: phf: what else..?
phf: head specifically answers ctime of file, size of file and any additional stuff that server might deem useful to provide in form of (likewise protocol essential rfc headers)
asciilifeform: the first two, get answered if i GET-and-immediately-abort . nao let's have an example of the last ?
phf: in general though, as is obvious from name, head return same headers that get would return, but without the content
asciilifeform: imho having HEAD is like calling a radio station and asking them to turn their volume down
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: that loox moar like it. can these be had ? << It is a sorts local Amazon/Craigslist combination. Stuff there appears attainable.
asciilifeform: can achieve exactly same effect locally.
phf: "please be ready to send me this 1tb file, just kidding i only want 50b of headers"
BingoBoingo: So there is a vendor to vendor element of buyer beware.
asciilifeform: phf: exactly so
asciilifeform: phf: incidentally, why can't you achieve same effect as HEAD by using the 'chunked' feature of GET ?
phf: are you selectively picking your heathenisms?
asciilifeform: trying to determine ~which~ heathenisms actually need
asciilifeform: possibly 1, or other, or neither
phf: that's fair, you could do GET with a range of 0 bytes at 0 offset
asciilifeform: re HEAD, i began with the observation that 10+ yrs of reading UNPROCESSED www logs of my site, shows that HEAD is issued by no human browser ever, and in fact comes solely from obvious (in other ways) malware wormprobes
asciilifeform: phf: and yes
phf: well, that's like saying that the mass of reditards don't follow specs so nor should we
asciilifeform: every knob in every spec that adds complexity, should have to defend itself, rather than be accepted 'because every walker is preshus'
trinque: the range idea is the sort of reductive compromise that's both a fine thing in reducing complexity and completely incorrect if designing from scratch
trinque: if you tell me offset 0 range 0 I should ignore you entirely
asciilifeform: why not e.g. range 1024 ?
asciilifeform: or however much you ~actually~ want
trinque: if it did that, yes, but you don't have a fixed headers length in http
asciilifeform: then why not 0 ?
asciilifeform: what am i missing
phf: i thought you're answering trinque's point
asciilifeform: trinque: i don't dispute that http is trisomy victim. q is, can the brute be properly lobotomized and harnessed and do useful work with minimal overseering expense .
trinque: my statement was that yes ^ and also for the logs "you wouldn't design something where $giveMeNoneOfIt implicitly means a metadata fetch"
asciilifeform: trinque: it cannot be helped ( while retaining the basic compat ) that they made '0 means anal'
trinque: lol, aha
asciilifeform: q is , what can be helped.
asciilifeform: i dun even propose to kill HEAD because it is complicated to implement -- it isn't, as i understand. but because 'nobody but pinoys ever seemed to issue a HEAD at asciilifeform's www, in decade+'
asciilifeform: why should there be a knob for pinoys ?
phf: so i've used HEAD before, but not in a batch process. i use it frequently for two purposes, one is to verify that the request goes through and server is prepared to send me data. the other is to request file metadata before i start pulling it, i have a curl alias for that.
asciilifeform: phf: out of curiosity, why not 'get with 0' ?
asciilifeform: it would seem that it can do both of these
phf: because not every server supports ranged requests
phf: and some have them explicitly disabled
asciilifeform: but every server has HEAD ??
asciilifeform: now that's fuckedup
asciilifeform: maliciously idiotic design.
asciilifeform: who has a server like this ? why do you talk to them ?
phf: oh get the fuck out of here
asciilifeform: no srsly
asciilifeform: can haz names ?
asciilifeform: do you talk to ebcdic boxes also ?
phf: no you can't, i'm not on trial here to do discovery for you
asciilifeform: well i thought we were having an argument, with facts...
phf: i'm talking from personal experience and in good faith
asciilifeform: why not give example. e.g. 'i crawl www and google doesn't support ranged GET'
trinque offering use of HEAD to minimize churn on distfile server from teh same place
asciilifeform: trinque: that's reasonable. but imho really oughta be done with sane manifests.
phf: asciilifeform: because i don't remember specific names. the experience is not uncommon, because "interrupted download, let me try restarting from the middle" fails more frequently than not
asciilifeform: ( and yes i get it, for existing www, it's the only working knob, aside from get-with-0 )
trinque: even manifest doesn't need to churn that much, but can sure.
asciilifeform: phf: in my experience in past decade, ~everybody supports resumed-downloads
asciilifeform: even microshit seems to
asciilifeform: so i suppose we have different personalexperiencesingoodfaith
trinque: lets say for a moment we're designing the http-dht-tron. I have a hash, do not have the item.
asciilifeform: trinque: sane manifest would be when you can, e.g., fetch 512bits of merkleroot hash and know that nothing in the whole box changed since last time
mod6: asciilifeform: 'sane manifest' =~ <+asciilifeform> then it oughta be in sections, and the sections in small manifest. merkle-style. ?
asciilifeform: mod6: aha
trinque: I ask you whether you have the hash. Is this the same request as "give me $hash"?
trinque: maybe I don't want it; I want to tell my friend I know somebody who has
asciilifeform: and say you see that the 512b hash ~did~ change. then you ask for 'hash of left half , hash of right half' of tree. see which changed. etc. ~= binarysearch.
asciilifeform: trinque: yer thinking of moar along the lines of dht, as i understand, rather than www-style server
asciilifeform: ( which is great, but imho other thread.. )
trinque: sure, but this is the most general piece of information you get out of HEAD, the status code response
asciilifeform: i will admit to being at a loss what 'http dht' might mean.
trinque: and they did this badly, verbs being nonsensical "programming in plain english"
phf: asciilifeform: one data point is that in e.g. nginx max_ranges is a parameter, which can be explicitly set to 0 to disable ranges, and if you search for it you get "how do i disable ranges" q's presumably by people configuring web servers. you don't have an equivalent for HEAD. likewise HEAD is part of the original spec, where's ranges is a later addition. it stands to reason that the number of times range fails would be non 0 even with "modern" setups
asciilifeform: phf: i believe it. and even believe that phf saw it. was curious where , exactly, is all.
asciilifeform: and recall, we (hypothetically) are making a ~server~, not a client. so i'm looking for argument like 'if we lose HEAD, there is then NO sane way to do xyzpqr , where xyzpqr are Important and Useful Things'
asciilifeform: the right hand of this syllogism has in turn two clauses, 'NO sane way' and 'xyzpqr are Important'
asciilifeform: and it also has to be 'then WE would lose', because if it's 'heathen derps will lose', than guess how many fucks i give.
trinque: if talking about denoting "get headers only" a different way, it's hard to say that loses anything.
trinque: if can't get 'em by themselves at all, another question
phf: these are silly criteria for protocol ~design~, because the absolute "if we don't have it we'll die" wartime mentality lets you make infinite circles in a turing complete situations. ascii wants the buck to stop at range, i want to stop it at head, it's an arbitrary decision
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2018/02/02/fightforbeauty-dont-slack/ << Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - #fightforbeauty, dont #slack
trinque: sure, I don't think there's a republican http any more than there's a republican linux
phf: we can reduce everything to just get requests (cut the headers, too, except for Content-Length), where ranges are done by "/downloads?file=...&start=...&end"
trinque: the various attempts at "cuntoo" have sputtered for precisely that reason, buckstoppoints are arbitrary in hell
phf: content-type is a meaningless header, since that's up to client to decide anyway (and it's frequently misconfigured), all the other headers are straight up metadata fluff.
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/02/02/the-hunt-for-handware/ << Bingo Blog - The Hunt For Handware
BingoBoingo: ^ Two photos, the opening up begins!
BingoBoingo: Not of the cage yet (hopefully acquire a box to take there Monday), just of my berth and my person.
asciilifeform: oh hey neato.
asciilifeform: ftr i imagined BingoBoingo exactly like-so (possibly with slightly longer beard)
mod6: looks like nice weather BB
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: The beard was longer before the trendy Latino haircut. Then I had to take it down to match.
BingoBoingo: mod6: It is indeed. Just gotta remember sunscreen here.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-12 23:47 asciilifeform recalls c3 and ~week spent in the sun, and 0 burn
asciilifeform: ( and it was, what, 100km from where BingoBoingo is ? )
BingoBoingo: Hence the chosen angle of the face. My nose is a solar concentrator.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Sounds about right. Maybe 150 km.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's skin normally has same exposure timing as daguerre's photoplate. 20min and it's cooked
asciilifeform: but that's at usa latitude
asciilifeform: in buenos aires, oddlyenuff, could walk all day in the sun, 0 creams, no hat, 0 burn.
asciilifeform: to this day i have nfi why.
BingoBoingo: Burn's not quite the right word for my experience with it. More like a slow cooking. But some of the Brasileros even get sunburn. Especially as they head further out east to Rocha. One brasilero came back this week from there with profound sunburn.
BingoBoingo: I suspect it could be the air quality here. Very little air polution, especially of the particulate variety.
BingoBoingo: And there tends to be very little cloudcover in the afternoons here.
asciilifeform: gotta be it
BingoBoingo: And for a closer view from my early eyes here, the tower we are concerned with is the fellow to the left in this first picture. The steel and glass fellows in the center are towers 1-3 in no particular order and the brick guy to the right is the southwest corner of Montevideo Shopping.
BingoBoingo: ^Ah, the link
BingoBoingo: Second photo looking is looking in the opposite direction from the same spot. That tower is the WTC FreeZone where you gotta pay a user fee to get in. May the ISP grow big enough to escape VAT thusly.
asciilifeform: what's that cost ?
BingoBoingo: I will have to dig that up, but it is not trivial and requires having a foreign corporation in the loop somewhere. Perhaps someone with a corp that is offshore to Uruguay can inquire? Depends on the revenue reported and a whole bunch of other miscellanea.
BingoBoingo: But they are expanding the border wall separating the Free Zone from Uruguay in order to build a second tower there.
BingoBoingo: Third picture with the sad lawn is where they are prepping to build a generic WTC tower 5
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: foreign corp is ready.
asciilifeform: but we can come back to this laters.
BingoBoingo: Right now priority is moar boxes
asciilifeform: in other experiments, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-09#1767440 appears to hold true across all ffa chapters.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-09 01:15 asciilifeform: in other experimental noose, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1766135 >> -gnatp ( max danger moad ) is ~2x measured speedup.
asciilifeform: oh heyheyhey lbj
mircea_popescu: hey there.
asciilifeform: nomoar viaje ?
mircea_popescu: done for now. item worked quite well for the purpose, huh.
mircea_popescu looked out of curiosity. in the intervening ~week, trikema spam thingee canned 836 comments, has doubts about 11 and disconnected outright before "put in comment" phase about 1/4 mn attempts.
asciilifeform: pretty nifty.
mircea_popescu: really clicking "spam" a dozen times is not much of a hassle here.
mircea_popescu: in other "i'm back here let's check things", teh fetlife bot has been going unmolested for the interval. it must suck to work for these website-business-technologies.
asciilifeform: how often it gets molested ( and what does this consist of ) ?
mircea_popescu: you'll have to tell me what it consists of ? what are you asking ?
asciilifeform: 'was unmolested for the interval' suggests that at one time or another it had been molested
mircea_popescu: oh the bot. it got iced once for one week in the intervening... i dun even recall, quarter or two
asciilifeform: ip ban whackamole ?
mircea_popescu: no, you won't believe this shit :
mircea_popescu: part of the extensive package of verbal spin and idle posturing post mp-raped-us 2015 festival, they introduced a "your cat may have walked on your keyboard and you can not log into your account for one week now, you know, for security" item.
mircea_popescu: i expect they hit their genuine lusers with it about 99x more frequently, but that's just a hunch.
asciilifeform: this afaik is new. ( 'slowbanning' was a thing in redditland, but iirc nobody had outright 'timeout' ban )
mircea_popescu: it's deeply retarded, because it's algorithmic. sleep $[ ( $RANDOM % x ) + y evidently kills it.
mod6: Welcome back, Sir!
mircea_popescu: ty mod6 !
mircea_popescu: and in other adaptive lulz, we find in the spampile :
mircea_popescu: The exact micro-chip carries a great impact if perhaps you will be a winner or perhaps a non-winner throughout texas holdem video. The method locations you within the fretting hand will be of value, even now, content material micro-chip commonly known as all of the RNG (Occasional Total Traffic generator) which gives the necessary steps for a professional to manipulate the exact cunning participate in and even botch the possi
mircea_popescu: bility. To describe, think of the video poker via the web gadget as an effective Laptop or computer. It`d be advisable to will mainly because that maybe what it's actually. Obtain the laptop or computer you operate at home or school. It is set to run particular type of undertakings. Typically the gear perhaps there is, on the other hand involves codes so that you hard work. It really is you install program. Around explained r
mircea_popescu: anges, computers can do well whatever you decide and receive. You can begin you operating, give time to dash, following get going a further and it doesn't involve interfering with the entire process of the upfront just one particular. In the event you copy moving upward textual content, conclusion . pumping systems adequate particulars in the create appliance, and then is constantly on the get the job done. Laptop computer do
mircea_popescu: es not have to hold back until their printing service ends, an equivalent option using electronic poker action.
asciilifeform: involves codes so that you hard work << bahahaha gold
mircea_popescu: hardwork, by now a legitimate pinoy word.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this looks like it's actually somehow siphoning context words from google then tries to spin them into its paste.
asciilifeform: pumping systems adequate particulars in the create appliance >> oblig >> http://btcbase.org/log/2013-11-02#365844
a111: Logged on 2013-11-02 00:07 asciilifeform: when i read these pitches, i can't help but recall: "...Filtration System A Marvel to Behold! It Removes Eighty Percent of Human Solid Waste!"
mircea_popescu: pig removes 99%
asciilifeform: !#s kazakhstan you very nice place
a111: 1 result for "kazakhstan you very nice place", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=kazakhstan%20you%20very%20nice%20place
asciilifeform: !~google kazakhstan you very nice place
jhvh1: asciilifeform: National Anthem Of Kazakhstan (With Lyrics) - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DPq8y_Wkrs3c>; Fake Kazakhstan National Anthem from 'Borat' Used During Actual ...: <http://www.comingsoon.net/movies/news/563936-fake-kazakhstan-national-anthem-from-borat-used-during-actual-award-ceremony>; ' Kazakhstan's prostitutes cleanest in the region': Shocking blunder ...: (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i hope it's clear where i'm headed with this : brace yourselves for the future of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-31#1778943
a111: Logged on 2018-01-31 17:17 a111: Logged on 2018-01-31 16:49 phf: etc. but the most pantsuit aspect of this situation? the infamous well written freebsd documentation is not up to date to any of these new improvements.
mircea_popescu: there you will sit, in the not so distant future, trying to figure out what the fuck $item, $tool, $whatever does, with two options before you : a) read mov push pop etc ; b) read "It`d be advisable to will mainly because that maybe what it's actually."
mircea_popescu: free choice - satisfied.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: microshit docs are already pretty close to this.
mircea_popescu: "read the manual!!!"
mircea_popescu: no, I KNOW!@
mircea_popescu: technical writing by highschool graduates reads shockingly similar to legal writing by highschool graduates.
asciilifeform actually and largely because of this sits ~allday and actually 'read mov push pop etc'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: consider also, the marvel from the other end of the idiocy stick, the 'autogenned docs'
asciilifeform: these are pestilentially common in scriptinglanguages lands
asciilifeform: 'hey whaddayamean the-header-but-with-added-colour-and-styling ain't docs'
a111: Logged on 2018-01-31 17:19 mp_en_viaje: they're not DOING anything ; just trying to LOOK A CERTAIN WAY, with a minimum of expenditure.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779400 << adds them as functions anyway, "for debugging" or somesuch. can't say it's necessarily a bad idea.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 14:38 ave1: yep
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779409 << this should prolly be standard preface of ada behaviour discussions ; ffa or non-ffa related. asciilifeform maybe you should add it as a comment you know ? at the top of the pile, "if anything's strange say @me in #trilema, please preface the saying with and-here's-my-grep-v"
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:05 asciilifeform: ave1: and plz post the output of gnat -v .
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:37 BingoBoingo: Still, they get an email along the lines of "I am scaling up my business here in Uruguay and need a bunch of 1U server boxes. What can you get as whole computers or empty cases?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform when's your visit there scheduled ?
mircea_popescu: (and more practically : when's my deadline for speccing my boxes with you ?)
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo pardon my thickness, where do you want qntra ns pointed again ? ideally in the format ns1= ns2=
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779424 << i entirely expect this. it helps to think of all of orclands, which is to say all asia, africa and south/central america as nations of scavengers with a thin layer of aspierational idiots approximately floating atop it.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:39 asciilifeform: it is also possible that this is one of those orcistans where there is not such a thing as a scrapyard, errything gets picked up by scavengers and reused same day
mircea_popescu: materials aren't even the whole point, they do the same thing with ideas. much like there hasn't existed a mind in kentucky that didn't live out of re-purposing stuff spewed forth from tv since at least 1960, similarily there hasn't existed a mind in uruguay whose production didn't entirely consist of revomit a la http://trilema.com/2017/in-case-you-were-wondering-where-all-the-worthless-nuland-drones-ended-up/
mircea_popescu: "here's what your fashions were three decades ago, dear european masterfriend. i hope you are very much impressed with how up to date we are here in $shithole! just like real people rite ???"
mircea_popescu: "la democracia es el unico regimen que protege y promoueve la libertad" and so on, the wall hadn't even fallen yet exposing the fundamental inadequacy of all socialisms in the process, whether roosevelt style or not.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779430 << the fundamental point you elide here is that FG is one step away from selling in the same fashion, for the exact same reason.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:49 asciilifeform: and imho selling 10+ yr old server, prolly complete with fan dust cake, for 'you must ask for quote!' takes some cheek.
mircea_popescu: their currencies are about as stable wrt to the dollar as the dollar is stable wrt bitcoin. it is not physically possible to have anything like a meaningful price in spanish.
mircea_popescu: even leaving aside the "argentine peso, 8.35 to the dollar according to "independent" govt banks, 27 to the dollar when mp sells it", colombia : 2750ish official, 3100 real.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779434 << i sent gabriel laddel some coca leaves tea, we see.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:50 trinque waits patiently for a gossipd atop which to redo hypertext
mircea_popescu: (all kidding aside, can and has bought dried coca leaves in a box. looks just like ordinary tea. five bux."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779437 << why woulkd you cut that ? consider you like something in the vein of http://trilema.com/wp-content/themes/trilema/images/ ; am i to not do this anymore now ?
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:51 asciilifeform: e.g. directory listing
mircea_popescu: (i'm aware everyone derps about "DANGERS", but seems to me very much a case of photographed box)
asciilifeform: !!up xahlee
deedbot: xahlee voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: holyfuq a d00d finally answered asciilifeform's invitations
asciilifeform: heya xahlee
asciilifeform: xahlee: got a pgp key ?
mircea_popescu: !#s "xah"
mircea_popescu: ^ ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lispist
xahlee: woot! hi guys
a111: Logged on 2018-01-07 16:41 asciilifeform: meanwhile, in other oddities, http://www.xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/pd.html
asciilifeform: xahlee: make a pgp key. register with deedbot,
xahlee: i thought asciilifeform the handle is familiar but forgot where
asciilifeform: xahlee: loper-os
xahlee: yes, that i knew, recently saw u guy's chat. :D
xahlee: yes. thx. yeah i think that's the site i saw few weeks ago
xahlee: what's up?
xahlee: haven't had a gpg key... will take me a while to readup again
asciilifeform: xahlee: intro reading -- http://trilema.com/2016/how-to-participate-in-the-affairs-of-the-most-serene-republic/
xahlee: haven't had for a while. last time was some year ago, oh signing emacs shit
asciilifeform: xahlee: if you have an old key, try and dig it out. otherwise, make new one, i'll rate you.
xahlee: ok. will make new but probably later today.
asciilifeform: xahlee: do it, and come back, whenever; you can operate deedbot via privmsg.
xahlee: i email u then, later.
asciilifeform: privmsg worx better than email
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779772 << i have 3 boxes prepared for bisp under s.nsa banners ; 1 is dulap-III , which is 'endisked', en-FG'd, and crated for its journey; 2 want disks; if mircea_popescu has specific config he wants for #2 and #3, or to obtain moar , gpggram.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 20:21 mircea_popescu: (and more practically : when's my deadline for speccing my boxes with you ?)
phf: oh cool was just reading guy's pages recently (work people discovered mechanical keyboards, buying up crates of stuff, iranian style)
phf: that's ^ re xahell
phf: err xahlee
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779771 << still clearing my calendar, frustratingly, for ro expedition ( looks to be ~3 wks from nao )
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 20:21 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform when's your visit there scheduled ?
asciilifeform: can squeeze in a BingoBoingoistan expedition shortly thereafter
asciilifeform: i still see it as open question, whether they'll wink through a crate with N servers as 'personal effects', or steal the whole lot
mircea_popescu: steal, no, but may tack on tax.
mircea_popescu: anyway, buy tickets so we have something definite, and say.
asciilifeform: well depending what is the tax, could be same as steal.
asciilifeform: i dun have with what to pay 10% of a 100,000 imaginary 'value' say.
mircea_popescu: in principle, sure. i'm unconcerned.
asciilifeform: then the whole orchestra oughta go in the crate, yes
mircea_popescu is a man with a 90 day visa on a 25 days remaining temporary passport and without an id since... 2014 ? 2013 ?
mircea_popescu: hard to be very impressed with the edifice.
asciilifeform: right but mircea_popescu runs on atomic battery.
mircea_popescu: lol atomic battery
phf: special material that mp runs on that has a byproduct of robbing others of agency, see also superman
mircea_popescu: when we originally met, many moons ago, hanbot was very impressed with my casual "diplomatic car ? of course i've ridden around in one". in her girly days this had seemed like the crux of cool, you know, "wanna gimme a ticket ? send it to bucharest."
mircea_popescu: this trip she got to ride around in one ; and found out that the ambassador's official representation car is exactly her mark and mode ; except made in mexico not imported from bayerische krankenwerk directly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform am i decoding this incorrectly or are you saying that we will be paying ~at least~ one month of rent on an unused rack ?!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: let's include several variants for completeness : 1) fedex , and chancing the VAT 2) somebody other than asciilifeform , who can go sooner, goes, delivers a box 3) BingoBoingo obtains box locally
asciilifeform: did i miss any ?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron what are you doing these days ?
mircea_popescu: more practically, how does ride over to wash dc, leave car in deep parking, get alf's boxes, fly over to bb, come back, extract your car go home sound ?
asciilifeform: i can easily fedex box(s) to danielpbarron , incidentally, no reason for him to take many days to drive
asciilifeform: ( there's no vat-collector b/w asciilifeform and danielpbarron )
mircea_popescu: he's in ct iirc. what days it's 2 hrs.
mircea_popescu: that far is it ?
asciilifeform: ( and then back, unless he wants to take a plane from dc )
mircea_popescu: no that was idea, better links from dc anyway
mircea_popescu: (i think)
asciilifeform: pretty sad links from dc actually. ~all the good flights on this side of continent are from nyc
mircea_popescu: oh there is that. fedex may be better move huh.
trinque: got laguardia and newark within dpb range
mircea_popescu: lessee what he says when he wakes up.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform conceivably you could also meet him at airport ?
mircea_popescu: have a cup of terribad coffee together.
mircea_popescu: getting to meet other lord for 1st time always worth something.
asciilifeform recently met phf in the meat for 1st time
mircea_popescu: o you did ? how was it
mircea_popescu: is he all like hipster style, soulpatches and whatnot ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally intel sayz good links to sa are all from miami/ft lauderdale etc ; not so much ny.
asciilifeform bbl, meat
mircea_popescu: also related, BingoBoingo if he brings you pogos, how do you plan to use ? decase and mount in an ad-hoc thing, 8-10-12 to the u ?
mircea_popescu: and re the "use ips" : very cheap solution is to run bitcoin nodes, i'm told. those evidently can't share ips.
phf: fwiw, i could pick up ascii's stuff and go next week even, but the flights are ~~$1200, which i don't have a budget for at the moment.
mircea_popescu: phf where did you look from and what airline ?
danielpbarron: i'm about to move to oklahoma, waiting to hear back from lawyer regarding a reckless driving charge before that.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron ah so not really convenient for you ?
danielpbarron: not necessarily
phf: dc all airports to montevideo LATAM, Avianca, also the usual pick of american, united, etc. looked at flights.goog. i suspect there's some indirect hop from southern u.s. but flight there within u.s. from dc is not going to be cheap ("going to warm places vacation season")
danielpbarron: i just need to be in court whenever they say, don't know a date yet
mircea_popescu: phf avianca is TERRIBLE
mircea_popescu: colombian airline.
mircea_popescu: see what coppa has to say ? they generally have sub 1k 2 weeks out sorta thing.
phf: well, sometimes if you have to travel with, like, farmers transporting their goats and such, it can be a reasonable price in return
mircea_popescu: they generally connect you through panama, which is not bad for your case, middle of the way
mircea_popescu: phf avianca is not cheap, just bad.
mircea_popescu: copa is cheap-ish and pretty good ; the rest are gringo airlines doing dumb shit like hubbing through us cities. which makes your voyage split 3/10 rather than 5-7 or so
phf: lulz, copa's website really doesn't like my firefox.
mircea_popescu: i dunno, imo huge premium for <8 vs >8 hour flight
phf: really anything is cheaper than u.s. intermediate city relay. my favorite is nyc moscow $600, dc moscow (through nyc) $1600
phf: "cheapest" i'm finding is feb13-feb21st at $1100
mircea_popescu: not terrible.
phf: 13h flight, yeah that's basically indian territory, so makes sense for the price.
mircea_popescu: i'm picking up your flight if you're putting in the sweat.
mircea_popescu: phf you can also book with a day+ layover in panama on your way back. for one thing you get to see the place and despise panama for good reason rather than by hearsay ; for the other flight over here is ~1hr ~every hour.
mircea_popescu: 11 days should be enough for alf to bake the boxes i expect. danielpbarron i think he's better suited as they're right next to each other ; but pending discussion with bb can you fedex some pogos ?
danielpbarron: encrypt to me how much and what addr
mircea_popescu: willl do this weekend / coming week. thanks.
ben_vulpes: i live in possibly one of the worst places to travel from, but i've got two servers for the foundation sitting on my office floor i gotta get down there as well, so if asciilifeform's rotrip delay is that much sand in the gears i can make the run to uruguay
ben_vulpes: would be pleased to, actually
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes conceivably could fedex to phf once this is sealed ?
mircea_popescu: of course you two could also fly independently and meet there for mini bbisp conference
ben_vulpes: sure absolutely
asciilifeform: pogos btw will need disks
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: depending on what you need in the 2 virginal boxen, can be ready in ~wk
mircea_popescu: aite, what's the menu like ?
asciilifeform: 1 has 4 bays, other -- 8
asciilifeform: the one with 4, i've outfitted with a proper 3ware card that knows how to raid5 ( the stock card in mobo is also 3ware but only knows how to raid10 )
mircea_popescu: and the other -- not ?
asciilifeform: this makes practical diff in re the ultimate capacity ( raid10 is wasteful )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suggest something, whatcha got there ?
asciilifeform: the 8bay one still has the stock card, 8cable 3wares are costly, but can be had on reasonably short notice
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dun keep a massive pile of ssd on my person, lol. but:
mircea_popescu: i think since we're doing this let's do it right, so get it an 8 cable card all sat down. what boards were these i forget ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform rather, can i get out of you a post with what there is ; and what there can be had reasonably (out of the very narrow set of reasonable gear anyway)\
mircea_popescu: this dribbling of bits and pieces is set to become the principal enemy of the republic in terms of how much damage it does.
mircea_popescu: nsa is not even on the map.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: prolly doesn't merit entire post, given as most of the item is in the log.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform merits absolutely, giving that there is a whole raft of future reference looking at a spark point in the past.
mircea_popescu: this present being that past.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-09 18:40 asciilifeform: i have currently 3 boxen for pilot plant. all 3 contain 32cores of 'opteron 6376'. 2 of them contain 256M of ram; 1 currently has 24G ( can hold up to 256 ). each has 2 x G/sec nics, 2 x (reduntant) 700W ps .
mircea_popescu: just make that post will you!
ben_vulpes: the time for talmudry is nigh!
asciilifeform: i'ma have to uncrate and photo then, later this weekend.
mircea_popescu: not even necessarily photo, a simple "here is what we have, COMPLETE specs ; and what we probably might want to ~EVER~ get".
asciilifeform: ( will require a 'game of sokoban' , believe or not, in my torture room, to actually access the boxen. )
mircea_popescu: it will become a sort of reference item over time i suspect.
asciilifeform: right. i can see it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform get the girl to film that, now THAT is quality entertainment content.
mircea_popescu is not even kidding.
asciilifeform: incidentally i got also smaller boxes of various descriptions, that may or may not merit deployment in bisp
asciilifeform: ( e.g. a 'wyse',
asciilifeform: !#s wyse
mircea_popescu: put on the list, we discuss.
mircea_popescu: perfect time to garage sale, for you.
mircea_popescu: also, do you have seals ?
asciilifeform: not in the traditional plebeland sense ( i can set up a box such that with own hands i can see if it was opened. but what else is there ? )
asciilifeform: what does mircea_popescu have in mind re seals
mircea_popescu: nothing in particular, just curious
phf: your ring as applied to wax
asciilifeform: i ~do~ have a spotwelder...
asciilifeform: actually purchased for this occasion
asciilifeform: ( and for battery restorations, lol )
phf: so does enemy!!1
asciilifeform: enemy has wax also, presumably.
asciilifeform: and knows how to potato
mircea_popescu: but not the shape of your 2nd concubine's clitoral hood or w/e you use
asciilifeform: that's what potatoing is, to lift shape
mircea_popescu: "master, it buuuuurnsss" "for the republic!"
asciilifeform: y'know, like passport forgers used to
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform shut up im fanficking.
mircea_popescu: actually, microfiber in glass may work as a modern seal. expensive as all fuck and not at all contemplated for this application
asciilifeform: we did this thread aha
a111: Logged on 2017-09-14 03:18 asciilifeform: clever, seems to use unique rf characteristics of a random wire hairball
mircea_popescu: but you melt glass (acetylene burner, not the end of world), laser burn the pattern into receiving fiber caught inside. seal blanks would look like old style fuses basically
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the innovation is that you cut some of the loops.
mircea_popescu: AFTER you put the seal on.
asciilifeform: the hard part is to set it up such that enemy doesn't simply replace the ~crate~ around the lock loop and laugh all the way to the bank
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the ru item was remarkable because it was verifiable with simple analogue electronics, no fancy patternmatching camera etc
mircea_popescu: yeah. there's many still open problems in re seals
asciilifeform: the crate is chief problem.
mircea_popescu: but i find it a great cranktopic to crank in mind. if for no other reason than because it's probably the ancient invention of seal that we owe technology to
mircea_popescu: and very much NOT language ; nor the wheel.
asciilifeform: i personally muchly luvv the subj
asciilifeform: and grr i can't seem to find the glass ball thread
asciilifeform: ( where asciilifeform described a full-bore crackpotteristic potential answer to the seal problem )
phf: well, main question is we're shipping in a crate proper, rather than say, luggage bag, it will be opened. in fact we're playing lottery here with opening, inspecting and tampering, seal or no seal
mircea_popescu: phf as i said, none of this refers to item at hand.
phf: ah, i wasn't sure about ascii
mircea_popescu: the alf methjod, and i expect is correct, is "i got technical samples, i am taking to $conference" or w/e.
mircea_popescu: nobody is ever sure about alf, that's his superpower.
asciilifeform: moar general problem. if application is important, conceivably you can afford to throw out the 7 of 10 or whatever crates which show symptoms of having been opened.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform incidentally intel sayz good links to sa are all from miami/ft lauderdale etc ; not so much ny. << The plane that does the American Airlines direct Miami-Montevideo route is older than I am. Flights routinely cancelled for repairs. Copa's panama to Montevideo service though is reliable.
ben_vulpes: phf: you have rackcrate? get from asciilifeform ?
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: let's include several variants for completeness : 1) fedex , and chancing the VAT 2) somebody other than asciilifeform , who can go sooner, goes, delivers a box 3) BingoBoingo obtains box locally << Fedex to Montevideo is a certain VAT, and random chance of additional import duty.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i took copa via panama & bolivia, to c3 back in the day, it worked ok, ~empty planes some of the way
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i have'em in thick cardboard'an'foam crates
mircea_popescu: when you went to bsas ?
mircea_popescu: how long was that, 16 hours ?
mircea_popescu: yeah, this planet is actually large.
asciilifeform: but at least cheap!
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: throw 'em on gurneys in la aeropuerto?
asciilifeform: not 23 of motors running, no
asciilifeform: maybe 14
asciilifeform: 23 of total sweat.
ben_vulpes: anyways phf oi
ben_vulpes: fuck i can't use this keyboard wtf
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: are you on a speak&spell or wat
mircea_popescu: stop hitting it with your dick!!
phf: oi mate oi
ben_vulpes: oi oi oi
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he's been on icraps so long he forgot the kbd is intended for fingers
ben_vulpes: no, i have viral load and it's in my everything
asciilifeform: phunphakt, ~halfthetime asciilifeform is on an icraptoy of whatever kind
asciilifeform: when in bed and can't be arsed to get up
phf: trut comes out
asciilifeform: they relay through specially made box
mircea_popescu: !!rate asciilifeform -10 ipad
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: shitdroid also!
asciilifeform: and i think i even have a z...whatwasit
mircea_popescu used to dick around on girls' ipad, playing games w/e.
asciilifeform: rubber kbd
asciilifeform: zaurus ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes did you get febra amarilla vacunacion btw ? BECAUSE IT CAN BE HEMORHAGIC!
asciilifeform: but errybody knows, Troo Men connect only via http://btcbase.org/log/2014-04-25#643502
a111: Logged on 2014-04-25 20:09 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://www.stalingrad-battle.ru/images/stories/ris42.jpg
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> also related, BingoBoingo if he brings you pogos, how do you plan to use ? decase and mount in an ad-hoc thing, 8-10-12 to the u ? << Pretty much this.
mircea_popescu: !!up sageprobes
deedbot: sageprobes voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: oh hey, a sageprobes
phf: ben_vulpes: republican matters is like reading leaves, i'm trying to figure out dimensions and who's sending what first. fwiw shipping a rack full (as opposed to ascii's original "2 machines") is going to run up the bill just on the oversized charges with airline
asciilifeform: hey laplinker , get a gpg key regged ?
asciilifeform: !!up laplinker
deedbot: laplinker voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: phf: ~3~ machiens
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo got a clear anything in mind, or just hoping it'l work ? have a case somewhere you intend to cram them in so we can look before committing ?
asciilifeform: laplinker: aha, did, could not answer however
asciilifeform: laplinker: plz to repost here, it might be of use to somebody
mircea_popescu: phf the plan here is : 2 boxes alf already has + 5ish for me, depending on what we manage to extract out of his menu a la carte + some pogos if we are satisfied these can be run up.
mircea_popescu: shouldn't be over 20kgs all told, this ; should fit among clothes.
phf: asciilifeform: 3 1u's or 3 3us :)
asciilifeform: laplinker: please repost here
asciilifeform: phf: unless somebody's got a dedicated 3u travel crate, they prolly oughta move in the vendor crates
mircea_popescu: laplinker make a pgp key if you don't have one, !!register and then you'll be able to self-voice once someone rates you
mircea_popescu: which i expect he will.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Looking for empty 1U cases. Put fans in there and affix pogos
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo publish some.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: pogo has the minus of taking up much vertical space when disk is in
asciilifeform: they won't sit down in 1u even empty, just a bit too thick
mircea_popescu: yeah i'm not satisfied this can be done economically.
asciilifeform: not with pogos. unless rack is largely empty, as a temporary measure
phf: hey, i'm down for a free vacation, but i'm not convinced that the costs work out in our favour
mircea_popescu: laplinker if jtag stuff left in or even if you resolder it in ?
asciilifeform: laplinker: have you personally tried this ? and stepped through a standard consumer bios from reset to boot sector ?
mircea_popescu: phf which costs are you comparing ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: he's discussing usb variant
asciilifeform: laplinker: neat
mircea_popescu: laplinker got a blog or such ?
mircea_popescu: !!key laplinker
deedbot: Not registered.
asciilifeform: laplinker: how about after boot. can microshit tell that you're singlestepping their kernel ?
asciilifeform: laplinker: and yes, what mircea_popescu said, write a post about this, i'd like to know what boxes this works on, how to talk to the chip, etc
asciilifeform: ( ideally without using intel's shitware , in the latter, also )
asciilifeform: this'd be a pretty serious find.
mircea_popescu: does this need usb3 ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it needs there to be one in the 'victim' aha
phf: mircea_popescu: fedex or better yet a private shipping container, later will take couple of weeks though
asciilifeform: waitasec laplinker
asciilifeform: why does bios get a say, if it's active at reset vector ?!
mircea_popescu: phf compare like things. (phf, bb meet ; boxes in republican custody whole time, delivered) $x vs (fedexed boxes) $y.
asciilifeform: these can't both be true
mircea_popescu: pricing is a complicated matter.
asciilifeform: laplinker: either bios gets no say; or it's not actually active on reset
asciilifeform: exactly as i said then
mircea_popescu: this is not reset etc
asciilifeform: it ~isn't~ active on reset!!!!
asciilifeform: ergo worthless
mircea_popescu: well, maybe not worthless, but it is not on reset.
asciilifeform: i SPECIFICALLY am interested in debugging militantly noncooperative items.
phf: mircea_popescu: boxes are not in custody during air travel
asciilifeform: laplinker: nogood. the drm crapola runs first.
mircea_popescu: phf very different levels of "not in custody", even if we're accepting the objection.
asciilifeform: laplinker: sage was interesting because it can ~genuinely~ debug from reset. in fact from before ram is inited
asciilifeform: can run whole box in cache-as-only-ram mode, even.
asciilifeform: as in, pull the ram sticks.
phf: mircea_popescu: hey i flew moscow in the 90s, i'm trained that putting anything in luggage is playing a roulette
mircea_popescu: yes, well, i don't foresee littoral combat airplane following copa around to diddle your equipaje.
asciilifeform: laplinker: correct.
asciilifeform: laplinker: and, distantly secondarily, microshit's 'secure' crapola.
asciilifeform: i.e. specifically things that MUCHLY do not want to be debugged.
asciilifeform: imho whole fucking point of an iron debugger.
asciilifeform: i.e. to shove red hot poker up the arse of 'intellectual property'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think phf possibly was alluding to ordinary orc-theft of cargo, rather than the usgistic sort
mircea_popescu: i don't expect this'd happen.
mircea_popescu: somehow he went to india and they didn't steal his gf ; what do orcs want with weird non-galaxy looking cuisinart boxes.
asciilifeform: what did they want with rms's mips laptop, lol
asciilifeform: orcs pilfer 1st and ask q's 2nd
asciilifeform: but admittedly prolly won;t
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe to expose him for the fraud he is ?
mircea_popescu: maybe he's just an idiot and forgot where he left it ?
asciilifeform: i've nfi
asciilifeform: nothing was heard of magiclaptop ever again.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> shouldn't be over 20kgs all told, this ; should fit among clothes. << I used beach towels and blankets.
mircea_popescu: very unlikely case, he didn't not get it off conveyor,
asciilifeform: ( this is the one ~before~ the ill-fated x60 )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, he had the ( to this day unobtainable ) 'loongson' mips-top
asciilifeform to this day has failed to buy even 1 , it is almost as rare as 'elbrus'
mircea_popescu: whatever, fuck'm.
asciilifeform: 64bit mips, believe.
asciilifeform: but upstack, asciilifeform has not had anyffing pilfered ~between conveyors~ since... well, 1992, moscow->nyc
mod6: they got you huh
mircea_popescu: i never had anything stolen from me.
mircea_popescu: not moscow, not krygoy-rov, nada.
mircea_popescu: krivoy-rog lel.
mircea_popescu: apparently dyslexia's contagious.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779441 << what do you think the problem with keep-alive is ?
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:52 asciilifeform: 'keep-alive'
asciilifeform: possibly none; i just have nfi why it's there
mircea_popescu: cuz it's in the tcp standard.
asciilifeform: not tcp
mircea_popescu: and cuz if you do something like wget a whole site it actually helps both you and it.
asciilifeform: but how ?
asciilifeform: GET-with-offset, for resuming partial fetches -- yes, helps
mircea_popescu: (i don't mean it's the same thing ; i mean it's in the http because it was in the tcp.
asciilifeform: but how does keepalive help
mircea_popescu: and how, because of the way threading half-works, how.)
asciilifeform: this is not an answer
asciilifeform: hey trinque , do you know the seekrit of this one ?
mircea_popescu: what'd an answer look like here ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it'd look like trinque and phf 's answers re HEAD
mircea_popescu: the sum of the cost of getting ten items through one link between the same parties is lower than the sum of the cost of ghetting ten items through ten links.
mircea_popescu continues logread to learn proper format!
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:54 asciilifeform: i've never written proggy that issues 'HEAD'
mircea_popescu: it's not JUST "did it update" ; it's also the issue of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-20#1773353 : how do you intend to find the location of your semantically identified content without redirects ?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-20 17:13 mircea_popescu: "do not use 2nd class link as 1st class link".
mircea_popescu: > head site/dickpix ; < site/dicks-today ; > get site/dicks-today
asciilifeform: GET gives you same thing tho
mircea_popescu: at some cost of bw / server load.
asciilifeform: i'ma wait till mircea_popescu eats rest of thread tho
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779452 << no because he doesn't have keepalive so his connection will die within the first mb every time anyway.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:55 trinque: you're going to what, download the whole hundreds of gb every time you sync?
asciilifeform: i dun think keepalive ( of the http variety , rather than tcp's ) comes into play at all when you aren't on a dialup modem or similar horror
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779461 << im affraid wget will have to be rewritten not killed ; possibly in a package with curl, but just as possibly not, and in any case this is next gosplan.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:56 asciilifeform: we don't use it ? it dies. that simple
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is this think based on anything ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: based on tcpdump/wireshark
mircea_popescu: of any single file > 1gb ?
asciilifeform: on occasion yes
asciilifeform: prolly deserves a formal experiment tho
mircea_popescu: well your experience's outlying, afaik, but ok.
asciilifeform: keepaliveism gives sour flavour in my mouth, in effect it permits 'oh i can't seem to shit, but DON'T kick me off the pot'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779464 << this is an iffy point, currently mostly used to serve imperial nonsense/crapola, but we might end up wishing to overload it. see whole http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=gns thing
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 15:59 asciilifeform: ditto OPTIONS and other liquishit.
asciilifeform: why should somebody on a deadgoat modem be able to keep their socket open and move 0 data
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform imo this is a misstatement of what it does.
mircea_popescu: you understand keepalive is often issued by THE SILENT PARTY, while LISTENING ?
asciilifeform: i'ma have to dig into subj
mircea_popescu: more apt would be to say it's the "yeah... aha... yeah" humming while someone's telling you how they crashed the car.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: upstack, i recommend against 'extend OPTIONS to do names' or any similar; http is a fundamentally damaged-at-birth item , and really oughta be trimmed down to bare minimum , and kept alive for strictly so long as it cannot be avoided
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: i thought we weren't doing keepalive.
asciilifeform: fwiw i'm still quite convinced that errything other than GET and PUT is ~= prb orphanage.
mircea_popescu: it's complicated, dood, http ended up hammered into shape much like sealife, over evolutionary spans.
asciilifeform: this i can see.
mircea_popescu: "i don't see why this fish should have colors, bleach it" is not much bioengineering.
asciilifeform: idea is to make a submarine, it needs neither colours, nor gills.
asciilifeform: but swims just as readily.
mircea_popescu: neither is directly evident.
mircea_popescu: most submarines do in fact have gills ; and way more is spent for their painting than on say car's.
asciilifeform: idea is a http server in <1000 ln of ada, approx.
asciilifeform: i dun particularly care ~how~ this is accomplished.
mircea_popescu: i get it, you're lazy, nothing wrong with it. the lazy implementation approach is even defensible politically.
mircea_popescu: but you're not saying "w/e, ima implement x when gettign around to it"
asciilifeform: consider, i have a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-06#1766133 , and that's a (slow but working) rsa. really everyone using multi-MB-of-c-liquishit for whatever application, should be scratching his head and thinking about life
a111: Logged on 2018-01-06 23:02 asciilifeform: libffa ( the actual arithmetism ) is cumulatively ~1900 loc, (80col!11) inclusive of whitespace , banners, and commentolade ; ffacalc apparatus another ~900, ditto.
mircea_popescu: sorry gabriel_laddel i was just kidding about the coca tea. sent some to other people.
mircea_popescu: !!up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
gabriel_laddel: Inventory arrived from CA a few days ago and am rebuilding M. mircea_popescu well you certainly know how to get my attention..
asciilifeform: nao i'm curious, would gabriel_laddel even ~feel~ a cup of coca tea ?
asciilifeform: ( does coca tea actually exist as an item ? )
mircea_popescu: yes ?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: yes and yes. coffee still works fine too. no cross tolerence with meth
asciilifeform: oh hm nao i seem to recall a loud and pompous ban on it in usa.
asciilifeform: 'ohnoez, seekrit loophole' etc
mircea_popescu: o, really ?
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: nao i'm also curious, what is gained from cup of coffee after one has already taken meth
mircea_popescu: god forbid alf tries anal, ends up unable to enjoy a blowjob.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: exact same thing you or anyone else get from it. Focus, awake, music sounds real nice suddenly interested in life
mircea_popescu: i am willing to sign and attest that all you noobs have no fucking idea what coffee even is.
mircea_popescu: must drink a cup in costa rica (or colombia, for that matter) first, to qualify.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think i had genuine coffee this one time...
asciilifeform: ( dunno how the unburned beans were smuggled into usa )
asciilifeform: the coffee in ro is nearly same as this
mircea_popescu: argentina ? not even! not that it's bad, but the standard coffee bar is made of gold-iridium alloyfor reason
gabriel_laddel believes MP
mod6: i did like the coffee in .ar. but im used to the engine-degreasing shit.
asciilifeform: the coffee in ro, asciilifeform salivates even remembering it
asciilifeform: ditto re all the other edibles
mircea_popescu: let's just say i had an airport cappuccino recreationally in bogota airport.
asciilifeform: hey gabriel_laddel -- other than substances... do anything noteworthy in recent times ? ever read ffa series ? interested in s.bisp ? read diana_coman's www ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779473 << you know i'm mildly famous in meataspace for always timing my ping lists ~3-4 ms of the whole second ? so it's perpetually "time 8002ms" or w/e.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:02 trinque: bahaha, yes, you can time your control-c *just so* that you get only headers
mircea_popescu: maybe i should offer my services as phd-assemblyline meat-head emmulator!
asciilifeform: aaha who needs clock crystal when such hands!11
mircea_popescu: you know ?
shinohai: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: shinohai: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 8745.98, vol: 44598.08814673 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 8779.7, vol: 122766.88412717 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 8705.0, vol: 18739.6522703 | Volume-weighted last average: 8764.09748843
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: unfortunately not. Am here because I finally have a nice setup where I won't get kicked regularly. While I have been reading some FFA and DC I do not have anything running at the moment
asciilifeform: i betcha mircea_popescu did some pretty killer b&w photography back in the day
mircea_popescu: o hey, bitcoin now worthless ?
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform's father has astonishing 'meat clock' ability, from many years of photo work )
mircea_popescu: mine was from hating having to clean jammed firearms, but anyways
mircea_popescu: the two not so distinct in the end. "shoot", right.
asciilifeform: lol what were ya firing, musket ?
asciilifeform: where else time matters
mircea_popescu: it matters, it matters.
mircea_popescu: shocking news : gunz really dun work as seen on tv.
asciilifeform: i dun think this is noose to anybody here. q is specifically re 'good timing, or jam'
mod6: especially when guns are cold.
mircea_popescu: cold, too hot, all sorta crap.
mod6: fair enough.
mircea_popescu: anyway, not "one true reason", by any means. most idiots overgrease them, calamite jam.
asciilifeform: oh hm ro kalash has the too-hot problem
mod6: what, they cook-off rounds?
mircea_popescu: they can.
asciilifeform: mod6: normally the opposite, extraction fails
mod6: ive never seen that from the heat, only after barrel is uber hot from multiple mag-dumps
mod6: but, can see it
asciilifeform: ok i think i know what mircea_popescu meant.
mircea_popescu: part of the problem is that "jam" describes about as usefully a bevy of conditions as "sick"
mircea_popescu: "o, you're sick ? ok then!"
mod6: i hate having to unjam a double feed on a hot rifle. anyone ever done that before?
mircea_popescu: mod6 "just pour some alcohol on it"
mod6: aught to be practiced probably, because in field, that could be a killer.
mod6: i did see a lot of guys have failure to cycle/extract with their semi-auto .12gas during the hunting season.
mod6: it gets below say, 15 deg F. and bolt starts to resist from the gummy oil
mod6: old guys freaking out. lol
mircea_popescu: well so they need cold oil, what.
mircea_popescu: no, really, the russkis have it. special winter lubricant.
mod6: no shit huh?
mod6: i think most of these guys use that remoil stuff. i'll have to check into that.
mircea_popescu: they probably do ; you can tell eg cold gun, slide barely moves forward, when it should slap right in. it's prolly crappy oil if the gun is clena.
mod6: one day it was -8 Deg. F. and we were out there, i had two times where cycle was slow. but cleaned shotgun after, never had same problem after that.
mod6: yeah exactly.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the american teflon lubricant is pretty great ( i use it in various... gear )
mircea_popescu: of course, problems compound. dubious oil, kinda dirty ammo, not holding gun properly during fire, well... it can take 2 not 3 how about that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah and not like it's expensive. a case of "i'm buying the 25 cent a gallon item because i never heard of the 35 cent a galon"
mod6: true enough mircea_popescu. if you don't properly shoulder the weapon, can have funny effects.
asciilifeform: it costs like fine wine. but is the Right Thing.
mod6: i gotta get some of that.
mircea_popescu: mod6 he has no idea ; it's not expensive considering what the actual cost per round is. add in all the capital costs, including the fact you're wasting your time there rather than diddling the local highschool girls' volleyball team...
mircea_popescu: besides, it provides an excellent incentive not to overgrease, which is added value just by itself.
mod6: is it hard to get firearms in cr?
mircea_popescu: not really.\
mircea_popescu: wisconsin-ish i'd say.
mod6: well thats sweet then.
mircea_popescu: and illegally, it's la-ish. police ends up in "balacera" with rando orc criminals biweekly.
asciilifeform: sounds lively
mod6: it seems insane to me to go anywhere guns are not readily available. london, for instance.
mircea_popescu: no/very limited hunting culture here, though.
mod6: much in the way of geese or ducks for game?
mircea_popescu: not really.
mod6: too warm 'eh
asciilifeform: maybe parrot tastes ok ?
mod6: lol, if you're hungry it wilL!
mircea_popescu: not much game, lotta protected animals, it's not really a hutning spot. there's some, but nowhere near what you're prolly used to.
asciilifeform: am i the only one who looks at mircea_popescu's priceless rare birds and thinks 'hm'
mircea_popescu: you'd shoot a tucan ?
mircea_popescu: (they're actually eaten here, in the villages)
asciilifeform: hey, 1ce
asciilifeform: i'd luvv to finally eat an iguana, also
asciilifeform: ever since mircea_popescu described it as a less-bony variation on frog
mircea_popescu: mod6 http://www.ticotimes.net/tag/costa-rica-hunting-ban << i'd say that just about describes it.
mod6: ah, thanks
mircea_popescu: a sec
mod6: ah, ok
mircea_popescu: https://news.co.cr/five-arrested-for-illegal-hunting-in-guanacaste-costa-rica/66432/ < more recent, ~same vein
asciilifeform: 'Toucan dies after being shot with BB gun'
asciilifeform: 'Firefighters rushed the bird to ZooAve in La Garita, also in Alajuela. The private center specializes in birds and is the current home of the world famous toucan named Grecia, also a victim of animal cruelty. The bird did not survive the loss of blood and the stress of the situation, ZooAve spokeswoman Mariann Ortega confirmed.' << prolly not the place for hunt aficionado...
mircea_popescu: eh, notice the pieces are like 1 a year. notice also the "judge releases" etc.
asciilifeform: 'Costa Rica’s existing Wildlife Law already prohibits hunting in Costa Rica, and sets fines of up to ₡1.5 million (some $2,600) for those responsible for killing a wild animal.'
mircea_popescu: anyway, shooting a toucan / cougar / etc seems pretty retarded. and nfi why you'd come all the way over here for fawn when you can just go to midwest like sane people.
asciilifeform: giant nature preserve, huh.
asciilifeform: i wonder if even jaguar can still be met with in cr
mircea_popescu: supposedly. tho i'd personally not really want to.
asciilifeform: does the paper have a column for 'this year, eaten by jaguar'
mircea_popescu: lol nah. jaguar is shy, not some kind of batman.
asciilifeform: the natives managed to get eaten on occasion
asciilifeform: ( big cat, gotta eat sumthing, neh )
mircea_popescu: nothing like tiger, that actively stalks villages / takes babies.
asciilifeform: would be nifty to see an ocelot.
asciilifeform: ( ~scale model jaguar, almost )
mircea_popescu: problem with wild felines is that meeting is neither good for you nor for them.
mircea_popescu: i prefer to encounter the bipedal kind instead. more fun, and good for all around.
asciilifeform: eh, not to take ocelot home, only to see him.
mircea_popescu: if it panics and charges you you'll have to kill it, which is at best regrettable. meeting's not good for you.
mircea_popescu: if it doesn't and runs away it'll still remember the encounter. not good for it.
asciilifeform: small beast, still charges ?
mircea_popescu: well odds are you don't know where you are and what you just stepped on.
asciilifeform: also possibly debatable re whether learning to fear men , is good for beast or not
mircea_popescu: not like they signal anything properly in this country.\
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seems deductively self-evident that the superlative state of wildness is "has never seen man".
asciilifeform: i suspect that ocelot who knows to head other way when bipedal monsters appear, lives longer
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:07 asciilifeform: then it oughta be in sections, and the sections in small manifest. merkle-style.
mircea_popescu: for the same reason "we cut gcc into more files, it is less big now" makes no sense.
asciilifeform: i dun see the relation at all.
asciilifeform: if i want to know which of 10,000,000 files on a remote site changed, there is no fucking reason why i should have to download a list of 10,000,000 hashes, rather than binarysearch.
asciilifeform: beginning with 1 hash of whole thing
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779491 << moreover, a hash rather than a date would be the correct response here.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:10 trinque: "do I already have the item at $path" and "how big is the item at $path" are interesting questions without the server beginning to transmit the item itself.
asciilifeform: which may well have not changed in decade.
mircea_popescu: i don't care to hear "item was put here on incatime so and so" ; just let me know what its hash is.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ah, we're actually saying the exact same thing, i misunderstood what manifest you had in mind.
asciilifeform: aha, i think mircea_popescu gets it
mircea_popescu: but yes, no argument that "modified" q being handled by timedate is beyond idiotic and has no future.
mircea_popescu: the other perhaps important point is that extant http servers have a very loose and distant relation to fs.
mircea_popescu: tightening that bolt may deliver great results.
mircea_popescu: there is ~nothing wrong~ with http server NOT using standard fs but https-special fs.
asciilifeform: right, internally emulated. this was part of asciilifeform's chalkboard sketch for 'sane http serv' in fact
mircea_popescu: and it is a fact that a server's needs towards the disk are specific, specifiable, and very visibly different from "general purpose"
asciilifeform: see, i want an os-less thing.
asciilifeform: planted in linuxbios payload-rom, on , say, pcenginesbox
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform but the tightening point may be the very merkle tree in question, which could, for instance, be directly the addressing scheme
mircea_popescu: disk keeps a journaling and server keeps a manifesting ? gimme a break.
asciilifeform: iirc trinque had an actual algo, but not posted yet
asciilifeform: but really there's no reason why a server needs unixclone os etc. build small bin with gnat, that knows how to run the nic, has basic ip stack.
mircea_popescu: opt out ofd the whole strings idiocy altogether
ben_vulpes stomps floor, pounds table
mod6: They shot the thing with a fuckin bb gun, and it died extra slow. That kinda pisses me off.
mod6: Sorry, got pulled off for a momemnt, just reading this thing. I dunno if they need laws for that kinda thing, just kinda not what is supposed to happen though.
asciilifeform took a few sec to recall that this was about the bird
asciilifeform: thought 'hmm who lost server to bb gun...'
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1780191 << fyi darkhttpd is missing POST (i grabbed it to see if i could trivially extend their verb dictionary, which i can)
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 22:30 asciilifeform: fwiw i'm still quite convinced that errything other than GET and PUT is ~= prb orphanage.
mircea_popescu: mod6 some fucking sense would help. but the truth is toucan is eaten here traditionally
mod6: ah. yes, sense indeed.
mircea_popescu: and the rurals really dun give a shit some dumb broad hoping to study criminology in maryland thinks
asciilifeform: phf: it isn't even clear to me why we need both PUT and POST
mircea_popescu: how are these the same thing ?
asciilifeform: they do ~same thing ?
mircea_popescu: put uploads a file, post makes a get with the params in a different encoding
mircea_popescu: anyway, idea being post is closer to get than to put
asciilifeform: why exactly is the 'get with the params in a different encoding' needed tho
mircea_popescu: because limit on url length.
mircea_popescu: at least, that's how it was born.
mircea_popescu: basically, people had a scheme, then started stuffing data in it (get was born) then stuffed so much discovered it really should go INSIDE the envelope not on it, so post was born
mircea_popescu: moving http from postcards to mail.
asciilifeform: i dun think i've ever used PUT... hey trinque ? phf ? ever used ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes wha happened ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's your blog do when you upload pics, shellout to scp ?
mircea_popescu: i rather doubt this.
asciilifeform: tho i actually upload pics via ssh
asciilifeform: ( my fs is marked readonly , recall )
mircea_popescu: shellout is always inferior solution, you understand this, yes ?
asciilifeform: wp's text tool uploads with POST tho.
mircea_popescu: a does it ?
asciilifeform: at least mine does
asciilifeform: PUT is oddball ancient thing, from before anyone even conceived of adding password or whatnot, 'hey, let's let user PUT items at arbitrary url on remote box' rather like ye olde warez ftp
asciilifeform: recall, same name even back in ftp.
asciilifeform not so long ago implemented an ftp server from scratch, was interesting exercise
mircea_popescu: classic or the whole sftp wank ?
asciilifeform: bare bone classic
asciilifeform: not whole stack, either, didn't need e.g. dir listing
mircea_popescu: shellout to ls amirite.
asciilifeform: none at all
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:16 asciilifeform: 170 usd for a 20usd label printer, notbad
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was re one of BingoBoingo's catalogues, it literally had a gadget i had on my desk , once obtained for 20bux, listed for 170
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: demise of unix os is a thing to rattle swords pon bucklers 'bout
mircea_popescu: $1101+iva honeywell bar code reader too.
asciilifeform: this thing, prints little stickers for e.g. bottles
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aaaaha
mircea_popescu: no clear way to sort by u-ness.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779533 << iirc after a decade trying to fix it it's almost both ways by now
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:25 trinque tries to remember if chunked transfer encoding is both ways with http, or only a response thing
mircea_popescu: But $495 for a $300 in the US ubiquity Edgerouter Pro isn't too bad <<< i.... beg your pardon ?!
mircea_popescu: how the fuck can 65% surcharge be not bad.
asciilifeform: btw 'edgerouter' comes with unabashed nsa backdoor in the vendor's soft
phf: asciilifeform: well, it also doesn't have cgi/fastcgi so post would be somewhat pointless. i'm actually not sure what the strategy for post would be when there's no programmatic way to control it
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779554 << understand the good part here : AFTER we're done building up the racks, we can prolly also sell them. certainly we own a valuable3 item by comparison to the orcs.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:36 asciilifeform: for comparison, 24core opteron with 256G ram , with 4 ssd disks ( 1TB total , 750 after raid ) , and with the raid card, costs me still < 1700.
asciilifeform: ( i wouldn't plug it in even 1nce, 'to try', without ripping out the flash and bsdizing )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform certainly. kinda why i want this as a collective effort.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: opteron in particular is 'nonrenewable resource' whose future price cannot be put in guaranteed bounds. but yes can sell.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah. let's make a list this weekend so we can action monday.
phf: also if you guys haven't seem http methods from original http2, https://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/Methods.html TEXTSEARCH, CHECKOUT (like GET but locks the file), etc.
mircea_popescu: phf you set on that 13th ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'ma uncrate things, take pics, expect a roundup sunday night.
asciilifeform: phf: my personal favourite, DELETE
mircea_popescu: i dun think we need any delete.
asciilifeform: srsly, picture this, 'i'ma let randos DELETE whatever file'
phf: mircea_popescu: i thikn that's what we're going to do, but i need to confirm my schedule. i'm still at the office, so i'll confirm in the morning
mircea_popescu: phf works.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:40 phf: i suspect local orcs have alternative paths for procurement, was sop in russia in the 90s. you could go to "official dealer" type place and pay 10x, or you would haggle for price at Gorbushka, bazar style
a111: Logged on 2018-01-31 13:56 mp_en_viaje: in other "thanks goodness computer means programmable machine", i have here this hp elitebook. it has the backlight permanently welded to "retina cancer". the "function" key bs works for everything else EXCEPT setting the brightness, fn-f9 does 0.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i already found that i had a 1U intel 'xeon' box, also usable , from years ago...
mircea_popescu: i dun recall what it was, like $200
mircea_popescu: phf problem with that item is that it always has counterstrike videocards rarely server rack mobos.
asciilifeform: aaactually university surplus is top source of gear for asciilifeform
asciilifeform: in re industrial items in particular
mircea_popescu: and, continuing elitebook thread, now that alf fixed it for me it's actually worth the money.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform us uni not ru uni.
asciilifeform: ( they have errything from electron microscope to crapple )
asciilifeform: aa yes
asciilifeform: tho i have nfi , possibly modern ru also has something of the kind
asciilifeform: oh hm mircea_popescu found the screen brightness magic number ?
asciilifeform: or is this re the 'push button at boot' item
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779569 << i paid about 6-8% of the vat i conceivably owed in argentina ; mostly in the shape of "who the fuck's gonna bother with the 80 cent surcharge on this pair of ho's stockings"
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:41 asciilifeform: phf: i strongly suspect that nobody but gringo rubes ever order from these Official catalogues, or pay ANY vat, EVER
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the push button at boot.
asciilifeform: yea wasn't thinking of 'shoe vat'
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779566 << usually shop at end of campus. << Spanish Class with the Venezolana this evening was an survey of local retailers that don't catalog
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:40 phf: i suspect local orcs have alternative paths for procurement, was sop in russia in the 90s. you could go to "official dealer" type place and pay 10x, or you would haggle for price at Gorbushka, bazar style
mircea_popescu: "me discuenta por efectivo" pretty much universal keyword re "no vat"
mircea_popescu: in other sadnesses, why the fuck do the spanish oversalt the anchovies paste.
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779773 << 220.127.116.11 have a ns1.qntra.net set up there and a ns2.qntra.net at 18.104.22.168
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 20:22 mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo pardon my thickness, where do you want qntra ns pointed again ? ideally in the format ns1= ns2=
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo hang on a sec.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo and qntra itself ?
mircea_popescu: ok, you have 3 a records now, empty to that and a ns1 ns2 as quoted.
mircea_popescu: let me know if anything else needed.
mircea_popescu: namesilo says they advertise ~15 mins, ftr.
BingoBoingo: Muchas gracias
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779585 << i suspect the ~only reason this is not in the standard is ~nobody wants to confront just about how little they actually have to say.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:49 asciilifeform: phf: imho 'what, if anything changed' is a q that oughta be answered by a mechanism that can do it, when (as often is) wanted for the ~entire site~ compactly
mircea_popescu: but consider if you will the problem of dynamic content. every one (of what, 10k ?) pages on trilema changes at least once a day (header), and so on. what now ?
asciilifeform: the whole 'dynamic pages' thing is a terrifying hack on classical http
asciilifeform: ( where we pretend that we're serving up files, but really generate on the fly )
mircea_popescu: i don't see it. i see "logins" as broadly nonsensical ; but programmable webserver seems fine.
asciilifeform: recall the thread with the url abstraction
asciilifeform: originally url was supposed to work like phuctor urls worked
asciilifeform: i.e. you saw url once, and forever you know what it behind it
mircea_popescu: so you loathe my changing header ?
asciilifeform: not the header; nor that posts are editable (i've added errata edits to mine, etc) , but rather the ugliness of the kludge stack
mircea_popescu: i dun see it in a design perspective ; heck, i actually doin't even see the problem with php. (by the time you're protesting a text preprocessor being used as a systems language your problem is not properly speaking with the tool).
asciilifeform: prolly the way to unkludge it would be to give the various elements of the page, own urls, somehow.
phf: the notion of "static content" is a c-machine-ism
mircea_popescu: this said, the implementation is in fact kludgy, but this is no reason to alter the design.
asciilifeform: phf: it is also a v-ism, that's the thing
asciilifeform: you gotta have some notion of statics.
mircea_popescu: phf he was headed straight into "no such thing as static content, you can discover this whenever you re-read the same words in a trilema article", but he sidestepped.
mircea_popescu: i think ferocranium of many knocks learns some intuitive avoidance.
mircea_popescu: actually, let's meditate together upon the following item, perhaps it resolves some subtle issues :
a111: Logged on 2017-09-01 19:54 trinque: the hash says what item I want
mircea_popescu: echo $banners[hexdec(substr(md5(date("F jS, Y")),7,6))%42] . ".jpg') << blabla.
mircea_popescu: now, what is the problem with non-static page ?
asciilifeform: well for instance, that there's no way to link to it such that the receiver of the link is guaranteed to see the same thing.
mircea_popescu: well, same thing for all users on same day.
asciilifeform: nor is there any way to link to an internal element of it ( sorta why mircea_popescu had to write his js hack )
mircea_popescu: so technically thjere is way
asciilifeform: right, but no way to guarantee it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is discussing the header production only.
asciilifeform: the current hack around this is the archiver. but it is a hack.
mircea_popescu: well, the baked in assumption here is that the tits, great as they are, benefit from impredictable dress prison each day.
asciilifeform: imho dynamics oughta have a marked-as-separate form of addressing. e.g. dyn:// .
mircea_popescu: that's the major challenge : can the argument be constructed to see what is actually wrong with that piece of gnarl ?
mircea_popescu: it evidently crosses all conceivable sanity boundries. so ?
asciilifeform: this goes back to the trinque thread, where he (correctly) observed that 'gimme resource R, find it using hash H' is a separate, conceptually, entity from 'perform command C and return result R'
mircea_popescu: (for convenience, in pesudocode : select from an array of possible headers the one which corresponds to the remainder of dividing by 42 the number you obtain by converting from hexadecimal format the string you obtain by taking 6 characters from the 7th of the md5 hash of the current date)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in that one is imperative and the other descriptive so to speak.
mircea_popescu: "find a thing such as x" vs "follow steps x give whatever comes out"
asciilifeform: exactly that.
mircea_popescu: yes but...
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's angle is that it is wrong that there is no sane scheme for distinguishing these. and likewise for properly handling the fact that most of what people do with 'dynamic' is really kludge to display bouquets of statics properly
mircea_popescu: the latter part is what we have issue with.
mircea_popescu: can you actually say the above snippet is "really kludge to display bouquets of statics properly" ?
mircea_popescu: seems to me it's a thing unto itself.
asciilifeform: one possible pill,
asciilifeform: to take hash of ~program~ to use as perma-url for dynamics.
asciilifeform: rather than the pseudo-static output (html in this case)
asciilifeform: *of the
mircea_popescu: only if http server runs v native.
asciilifeform: which it oughta.
mircea_popescu: then you could in principle indicate WHICH LEAF you even permit.
mircea_popescu: "process my data with the press X as identified from your manifest, i don';t trust X'"
asciilifeform: so in this hypothetical, mircea_popescu's trilema url (or rather, the raw hash underneath it) will only change when he changes his generator.
asciilifeform: exactly this.
asciilifeform: which-leaf etc.
asciilifeform: is where i was going .
mircea_popescu: yes but this is a much more integrated v-http server than previously even hinted at.
asciilifeform: it is not to swap out apache , no.
mircea_popescu: but you WANT header then ; it is the evident place to report the v-struct
asciilifeform: conceivably. =
asciilifeform: err, .
mircea_popescu: not mere "merkle tree", but actual proper v struct, with seals resources and errything.
asciilifeform: i was giving simplified example for 'how classic http ougta have worked' lol
mircea_popescu: not in loc lines necessarily, but in what lifting it actually does, conceptually.
asciilifeform: but yes.
asciilifeform: orig q was , however, re what knobs in traditional http are actually needed, for civilized life
mircea_popescu: and it's a wonder if it'd be actually worth it. consider -- what alternative wp-mps would i maintain on trilema ?
asciilifeform: and which knobs are equiv to DELETE and CHECKOUT
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: edges into a 'causes and purposes' discussion, dunnit. even if trilema doesn't possibly use any such thing, conceivably it is still the Right Thing
asciilifeform: even from 'the code makes internally consistent sense' pov.
asciilifeform: i can give 1 ready example of a plainly palpable win, even for blogs:
mircea_popescu: i dunno, i confess i've not prior considered the v-http server.
asciilifeform: ease of mirroring
asciilifeform: suddenly no need for magical cache control flags
asciilifeform: and 'varnish' etc
mircea_popescu: in fact, another ready example : rss.
asciilifeform: now anyone who wants to mirror, can. and whoever fetches, knows what he's getting, and how it related to universe.
mircea_popescu: "i want trilema as rss not trilema as main page" or "i want trilema as list of archives not as main page"
mircea_popescu: i dunno.
mircea_popescu: consider the hack i did recently for hanbot
asciilifeform: ( y'know, exactly like whoever wants to , can mirror trb universe )
a111: Logged on 2018-01-13 07:06 mircea_popescu: !~later tell hanbot here's something you might find useful : http://trilema.com/hanbot/
mircea_popescu: now, this ad hoc hack could have been a proper alt-leaf thing
mircea_popescu: rather than unmaintainably clog out my blog and risk being deleted any day now.
asciilifeform: i think mircea_popescu grasps the idea.
mircea_popescu: so in point of fact saying "why would alternate views exist" is facetious, i listed like 4 in five minutes.
asciilifeform: iirc ted nelson actually got stuck on how to do this particular thing.
asciilifeform: i suspect -- because he didn't have v
asciilifeform: !#s transclusion
mircea_popescu: it is threateningly complex.
asciilifeform: lethally complex if approached from wrong end, also.
mircea_popescu: consider the machinery that blogs become, in this system
mircea_popescu: no longer a hodge-podge of "plugins" and "themes" haphazard and therefore entirely flat conceoptually.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-28 03:58 mircea_popescu: trinque tbh, i think wikis are a (braindamaged, dysfunctional, uncomprehending) response to the html-is-broken / transclusion issue discussed yest and etc.
asciilifeform: and yes, flat, and yes, goodbye to link rot.
asciilifeform: this is what www would have been if made by the sane.
asciilifeform: ( and i suspect original will not even be muchly remembered , sorta like how ~nobody nostalgiates for ibm mainframe liquishit )
mircea_popescu: it's not clear it'd do anything for linkrot sadly.
asciilifeform: if correcly made, link can only rot if nobody mirrored.
mircea_popescu: not so. consider : linkrot today means, "you might not have the data original server had". like you lost lispmachine FET say.
asciilifeform: not long ago i loaded a 'torrent' that was first put up ~7yrs ago. because somebody still mirrored.
mircea_popescu: tomorrow, linkrot will thereby mean "you might not have the original data ; OR you might not have the original program".
asciilifeform: the idea is that if you have immutable url-to-payload correspondence, large-scale mirroring ( via , e.g., gossipd wot ) becomes practical.
asciilifeform: of program and statics similarly.
mircea_popescu: "immutable" still enforced by server only. tomorrow i can decide to make a whole diff tree and gl to you.
asciilifeform: you can, but it won't have same handle.
asciilifeform: because , elementarily, doesn't hash to same hash.
mircea_popescu: and the old handles will 404
asciilifeform: right, unless someone cached'em
asciilifeform: there is not a magical pill against deletion
asciilifeform: aside from 'make copy'
mircea_popescu: anyway, this worth moar thinking.
asciilifeform: trinque's dht item also worth writing. ( hey trinque ! )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779605 << there is a good argument in favour of overloading meaning into verbs rather than inventing new verbs. an implementation of head as "get with 0 bytes accepted" is actually an improvement over current.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:56 phf: that's fair, you could do GET with a range of 0 bytes at 0 offset
mircea_popescu routinely pulls data from slaves/processes/etcetera with an explicit or implicit size limit and strong conventions as to ordering
mircea_popescu: (most important first etc)
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 01:02 mp_en_viaje: but let's not let the praise fall by the wayside just because every successful step opens up so more further steps : nice bb! qntra back on huh!
mircea_popescu: currently there's no equivalent hierarchy of html documents, so they are always sent in order of importance of parts.
mircea_popescu: not evident that this should be as it is.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and observe that the turdmeisters implemented elaborate hacks ( i.e. realtime DOM modification ) ~just so that ad crapolade loads first~
mircea_popescu: if my loading of a web page dies 10kb in, i want that 10kb to have contained the article, not some "template" fugly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform oya.
mircea_popescu: or at the very least so "page is not usable until our shit is in"
asciilifeform: ~invariably the first MB or so ( i wish this were joak ) contains only liquishit
mircea_popescu: quite opposite of sense ; and a much more important ablation target than forgotten/disused http words.
asciilifeform: well that particular pile of shit goes away with js
mircea_popescu: we still need js as much as last time this was discussed, a week ago
asciilifeform: right, though it would win from a staticized url
asciilifeform: ( where, say, i can have local list of jsoids signed by actual people, that machine will willingly load, and no others )
asciilifeform: e.g. 'hey, trilema.com/js/04D9A9AB41E3AD407D8F030658273C2F8D1EC595D3D2D523252FEACF546AF86E.js is in my list, let's use'
mircea_popescu: as that deed was stepping towards, yes
asciilifeform: ( and naturally contents keccak to 04D9A9AB41E3AD407D8F030658273C2F8D1EC595D3D2D523252FEACF546AF86E . etc )
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 16:59 trinque: if you tell me offset 0 range 0 I should ignore you entirely
mircea_popescu: if i tell you i wish to see the file x except not any of its content this is logically equivalent, quite directly, to "metadata only plox"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779620 << is this a rehash of >> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-16#1583902 ?!
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 17:02 trinque: my statement was that yes ^ and also for the logs "you wouldn't design something where $giveMeNoneOfIt implicitly means a metadata fetch"
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 06:24 trinque: in other python 2 was already shit... all() -> True yet any() -> False
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779633 << all servers had head because it's antique ; ranged requests went through an ebb and flow of implemented, then disabled because implemented wrongly and buffer overflows, then etc.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 17:06 asciilifeform: now that's fuckedup
mircea_popescu: so yes, head support universal, ranged request support present but not that reliable.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779643 << trivial to check, issue a head, see if "accept-ranges" is in there. if not -- no support
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 17:08 asciilifeform: why not give example. e.g. 'i crawl www and google doesn't support ranged GET'
mircea_popescu: for instance here's what your server says : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XGPpg/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: and considering what happens in response to curl -v -X GET -H "range: bytes=1-8" www.loper-os.org (full page dump) we can add asciilifeform / nfs to the list of "does not support ranges"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779651 << the correct statement would be, "you have experiences in good faith and i have imaginations in good faith, that i don't bother to check nor do i ever sit down to reason as to what THAT implies re faith"
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 17:11 asciilifeform: so i suppose we have different personalexperiencesingoodfaith
trinque: the thing's so steeped in "the way things are" I daren't comment further
trinque: sure, if http is understood that it always hands back headers, and these are decided to exclude the "I want an item of x length and no further" then get with range 0 offset 0 would hand back only headers
mircea_popescu: trinque i meant strictly from a logical perspective.
trinque: yeah but that's what fired off the other thread too!
trinque: lol, I was speaking practically. though I'm glad it did prompt the other.
mircea_popescu: yeah, it's not clear that the extant stack of shit is capable of supporting some sort of meaningful practical consideration.
trinque: sql would be a system where I'd consider the metadata properly designed, in that there isn't a difference in the way it's represented, or retrieved
trinque: same tools apply to metadata as everything else
trinque: but me bleeding shoulds all over existing items isn't helpful
mircea_popescu: explain this to me ?
trinque is referring to information_schema and the db-specific metadata schemas
trinque: I can select from a table that is the table of columns, for example
mircea_popescu: so sql doesn't have an equivalent of head is the idea ? or doesn't have an equivalent of get 0 size ?
trinque: if I were to hamhandedly bash this into http, there'd be no headers. you'd get that information from another ULR
mircea_popescu: but i can get, eg, a table's current index position
mircea_popescu: for the autoincrement metaconstruct.
mircea_popescu: isn't this "tell me about this table for a total of 0 rows" ?
trinque: what is special about that data retrieval, compared to "what's the age of john" ?
trinque: the charge I made was that range 0 is an implicit metadata fetch. why implicit?
mircea_popescu: that one is select john from tabler and the other is show table status.
trinque: if tables were good for storing ages of johns, why not statuses of tables?
mircea_popescu: and this show table status is a proxy for select autoincrtement from inf schema
trinque: sure, that's syntax sugar
trinque: can get curval or w/e in pg
mircea_popescu: right. which is what was contemplated here too.
mircea_popescu: basically whole thing was "Don't implement a special show table status, use the underlying select item from schema directly"
mircea_popescu: "don't have a head, use get size 0"
trinque: right the muntzing of http got conflated (by me, most likely) with how it ought to have been done in the first place
trinque: http doesn't have any sane, orderly data model underlying syntax sugar
mircea_popescu: well the whole thing is one huge napkin doodle shared over the chan as it stands
trinque: it's all sugar
mircea_popescu: (good thing we got the cloud collaborate suite from $corp, too... how could we have gotten this far without ???)
mircea_popescu: trinque the most reliably encountered header in responses is Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
trinque doesn't always know how obvious his line of reasoning is until it bounces off another at velocity
mircea_popescu: fancy that wonder, text, html and utf-8. some data type.
mircea_popescu: "our data type is vector list array, tyvm & come again!"
trinque: exactly that, the thing keisters away data in whatever fold of fat some autist found at the moment
trinque: incidentally I've been working on moving the entire concept out of my head in such threads, in contrast to the old thread in question.
mircea_popescu: hm ?
trinque: in this case sums to: republican HTTP may ulcer alf further.
trinque: oh, I blew my stack in the thread you linked mostly because of my own radiation damage
mircea_popescu: i'm lost ; say what ?
trinque: old thread was on python, and the behavior of some looping constructs or w/e, didn't match set theory
trinque: or one did, one did not, whatever it was
trinque: same thing's going to happen in a thread on HTTP
mircea_popescu: the reason i linked the two items was, that you had a paradoxical result evaluating logical implication of negated absence in there ; and a paradoxical result evaluating predicated nothingness, here. seem to me intuitively they're related to some sort of 0-difficulty you have.
trinque: you didn't get back zero in the latter case
trinque: you got however many bytes of headerstuff
mircea_popescu: but that's not the meaning of the 0.
mircea_popescu: you're asking for 0 bits of X, not for 0 bits altogether.
mircea_popescu: and if you say "i'm interested in x but in 0 bits of it" the logical implication is that you're only interested in any meta-x may be available. which yes might be null, but also doesn't have to be.
mircea_popescu: similar to trinque goes into santaria shop, "do you have any bibles ?" "yes, shall i read you from it ?" "no, thanks. how much for one ?"
trinque: why would you imply it in that manner, and it's understood you may want potentially boundless metadata
trinque: rather than specify what question you may have about the thing specifically
mircea_popescu: this is a major flaw of the "design" such as it is, that yes you're asking for potentially infinite metadata.
mircea_popescu: through header too.
mircea_popescu: trinque because you don't know what questions may be asked, is the idea.
trinque: the inability to ask specific questions is another massive failing of the thing
trinque: "oh here's the filesize and content type and also here's what the server had for breakfast"
mircea_popescu: well you don;t know what you don't know. exactly as in the slavery threads.
trinque: taxonomy of metadata is not impossible
mircea_popescu: (practically, they just didn't feel like making one verb per thing, because it'd have ended all sgml.)
mircea_popescu: but anyway -- you can even now make a server return ~infinite headers if you wish.
trinque: sql has this already, on earth.
trinque: I can go query what tables have a column of particular type
trinque: or whatever else I like
mircea_popescu: yes, but the thing still starts with describe or w/e it's called
trinque: it doesn't.
trinque: select * from information_schema.column where ...
mircea_popescu: right, everything is selects in the end,
mircea_popescu: but you don;t know what to put in the where to begin with. so you get potentially boundless piles of metadata.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779674 << not practically. 2kb max size or what was it, won't get you far.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 17:26 phf: we can reduce everything to just get requests (cut the headers, too, except for Content-Length), where ranges are done by "/downloads?file=...&start=...&end"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779676 << this is not so. looking through trilema's : X-Pingback: http://trilema.com/xmlrpc.php is essential for the whole pingback functionality, which i deem a prime class. off top of head cache-control is probably also useful, as it tells the client the very useful bit of whether server deems resopurce is type 1 or type 2 in http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-03#1780528 sense ; Location: http
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 17:27 phf: content-type is a meaningless header, since that's up to client to decide anyway (and it's frequently misconfigured), all the other headers are straight up metadata fluff.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-03 00:22 mircea_popescu: "find a thing such as x" vs "follow steps x give whatever comes out"
mircea_popescu: ://trilema.com/2014/ill-pay-for-your-tits/ as a complement to 302 response also quite useful.
mircea_popescu: you'll also probably have trouble without a connection: close signal, and so on.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779704 << i recall looking into it few years ago and not being impresse.d
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 18:02 BingoBoingo: I will have to dig that up, but it is not trivial and requires having a foreign corporation in the loop somewhere. Perhaps someone with a corp that is offshore to Uruguay can inquire? Depends on the revenue reported and a whole bunch of other miscellanea.
mircea_popescu: aaand thereby log eaten. mazel tov.
trinque afk for a bit
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, the day's log page is fulla non-linking links as a result of http being the discussion
doppler: is that just a matter of a regex needing updated?
ben_vulpes: https://blog.positive.com/predicting-random-numbers-in-ethereum-smart-contracts-e5358c6b8620 << prnglolz
mod6: node is still caught up. wewt
shinohai: gg mod6
ben_vulpes: guy delivering servers today wanted to know what i was doing with em; "well let's see, install some software and then rack 'em in a datacenter, what else does one do with servers?" "no but like are you mining bro?" "haha funny. don't you have something for me to sign?"
mod6: im dying