Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2017-12-18 | 2017-12-20 →
mircea_popescu: what's its range ?
asciilifeform: dc to 250mhz approx
asciilifeform: !#s xc9572
asciilifeform: !~google xc9572
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Xilinx DS065 XC9572 In-system Programmable CPLD Data Sheet: <>; XC9572 -15PQG100C Xilinx Inc. | Integrated Circuits (ICs) | DigiKey: <>; XC9572 -15PC44I Xilinx Inc. | Integrated Circuits (ICs) | DigiKey: (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: very halpful, look, a pdf.
mircea_popescu: that redirects.
mircea_popescu: fucktards. dja realise that link is dead ?
asciilifeform: dunno where i remembered 250. gotta be from lattice-ice
asciilifeform: it's alive, fwiw, loads
mircea_popescu: anyway. so the range is approx 1e8
mircea_popescu: it redirected me to oh i see what happened
asciilifeform: if all you want is range, can say that a glass bottle as easily holds 1 molecule of water, as....
asciilifeform: mega-range.
mircea_popescu: not much of a machinery.
asciilifeform: point is, scale alone dun impress, or we'd all eat, very impressedly, at mickey d
mircea_popescu: machinery that behaves as intended over a large range of inputs impresses me. this isn't mandatory for anyone.
asciilifeform: i have nuffin against mircea_popescu's beingimpressed.
mircea_popescu: now, the accomplishment here is that it tied a theoretical model to future development in reality.
mircea_popescu: this is no small matter generally.
mircea_popescu: consider, making a clock that works equally well over 1e20 time units,
mircea_popescu: etcetera.
mircea_popescu: women ~generally make children, but that's only 3e12 cells or so.
asciilifeform: in the time it took you to write this, yer fg clock beat out 28^20 time units.
mircea_popescu: it did ?
asciilifeform: err, ~2+
mircea_popescu: 2^20 ~= 10^6 ?
asciilifeform: folx spit on quartz resonators, but they're a quite remarkable thing.
mircea_popescu: no argument. they are.
mircea_popescu: still not quite AS remarkable as discussed here, but yes.
asciilifeform: compared to, say, naive self-feedbacking inverter clock, or r-c clock.
mircea_popescu: i suspect quartz hating is because obsoleting the last remnant of pre-socialism tech, the mechanical movement.
asciilifeform: more often because it loses to 'atomic' clock, which seems to derps to be much cheaper than it is because inca broadcast
mircea_popescu: broadcast nevertheless is the ~only economical way to clock.
mircea_popescu: for a while it was church tower, same inca principle.
asciilifeform: dunno, rubidium clock costs nomoar than a typical comp
asciilifeform: and cesium -- about same as 'rolex'
asciilifeform: ( presupposing yer doing precision, vs accuracy-to-inca, the latter circularly presupposes inca broadcast as only winner )
mircea_popescu: i guess.
asciilifeform pretty close to where more often than not thinks 'hm, rubidium or save pennies and cesium'
asciilifeform: btw iirc we had a mechanical clock collector d00d... pete_dushenski ?
asciilifeform pictures, suppose somebody were to try an' 'veblenize' cesium fountain
asciilifeform: picture, knapsack.
asciilifeform bbl, but suspects that we'll meet this thread again.
ben_vulpes: ohey have we finally arrived at the solution of each laird maintaining their own premined coin?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i am very curious in how you figure initial distribution might work
ben_vulpes: although perhaps that is the only thing that will eventually differentiate the trilema fiatists products
mircea_popescu: one coin per l1.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-21 01:10 mircea_popescu: it'd be literally a measure of social intercourse
phf: << 11753, well that's enough for tonight
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 04:27 phf: << 24132
mircea_popescu: 12k is almost human
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes look into teh whole medieval history. two salient points : a) "honor", especially "why would it be said that the enchroaching of king into chivalry through pretense of fons honorum actually destroyed it" ; b) tenement, especially in the sense of subinfeudation.
mircea_popescu: but yes, this comes with the necessity of considering eg as "a coin has been minted" ; i don't see as anything other than an abstract rendering of the exact practical reality
a111: Logged on 2017-12-14 19:42 mircea_popescu: phf are you amenable to re-writing diff btw ? is going to happen later this year, and v-immutability is a pita.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 02:52 asciilifeform: to round out the crackpottery : i've described what is more or less a working variant of ye olde warcrime, the multiverse coin
mircea_popescu: that you don't "need to make a coin" for this should be evident, in the sense that the "coin" already exists. (not to mention -- )
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 01:37 mircea_popescu is thinking of actually starting a chivalry order.
mircea_popescu: fundamentally, the "quo warranto" inquiry is exactly equivalent to transaction verification.
shinohai: <<< This was some lulzy SFYL
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i can picture that it'd impress folx who experienced 'typical' technology being webolade, ducttape, perl. the way austrian bidet impressed asciilifeform's grandfather. << AHA, in Uruguay no excuse for walking around with stink butt
BingoBoingo: Datacenter visit was very pleasant
BingoBoingo: Very well cooled, racetrack cabling to racks very clean, mega fire supression
BingoBoingo: And very importantly, they have space to fill
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 17977.03, vol: 16186.23175455 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 17569.0, vol: 51044.12132472 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 17934.7, vol: 3487.02834816 | Volume-weighted last average: 17680.4248612
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: datacenters are ~always more or less ~same, visually.
asciilifeform: the differences are not in that some have roaches and others mice, no.
BingoBoingo: Details vary, even among this operator's different halls. This operator's older halls use racetrack designed for electrical conduit. The new hall uses coated racetrack designed for networking cables
asciilifeform: << emphasis was quite deliberate on 'this is orthogonal to the problem contemplated'. yes, it is solvable, there are several known obvious solutions.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 05:56 ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i am very curious in how you figure initial distribution might work
BingoBoingo: But the fellow I talked to recieved a clear understanding of what I am and am not looking for.
asciilifeform: neato, BingoBoingo
asciilifeform: lemme know when yer ready to take a box
BingoBoingo: I will keep you informed.
asciilifeform: << 12k of 'idiomatic c' is still pretty heavy. but not intractable.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 06:10 mircea_popescu: 12k is almost human
asciilifeform: !#s idiomatic c
BingoBoingo: Will you be flying down with the box?
asciilifeform: ^ see also
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: possibly, but it dun make sense for just 1
BingoBoingo: Ah, better get to boxing then. Apparently when summer ends the weather is un poco menos divine.
asciilifeform: well i actually ~like~ winter, so.
BingoBoingo: Lol, the fellow went to great lengths to caution me on how cold winter gets here while staying above 0C
BingoBoingo: Do remember if you choose to stay in my hostel to bring clothes you don't mind burning later porque los chinches de cama
BingoBoingo will prolly do the ivermectin thing later this week
asciilifeform: somehow i didn't expect delousing as one of the expenses...
BingoBoingo: Well, there's accomodations nearby where the staff get paid in dinero instead of accomodations, without rapidly turning beds in rooms that accomodate 8 people.
BingoBoingo: International travel is a dirty business.
asciilifeform: hey , asciilifeform takes off his hat to BingoBoingo's 'fuel efficiency'
BingoBoingo figures if the Colombians y Brasileros/Brasileras don't complain too loudly what is his place to do so.
BingoBoingo: Not to mention when apartment time comes it presents a ready opportunity for remediating the issue
BingoBoingo: !!up The20YearIRCloud
deedbot: The20YearIRCloud voiced for 30 minutes.
The20YearIRCloud: It's a Christmas Miracle!
BingoBoingo: Que es?
The20YearIRCloud: Had to say something, guess that's my best try
asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: y'know you don't have to talk if you dunwanna
The20YearIRCloud: Yeah but I'm voiced, must be a early Christmas present?
asciilifeform: The20YearIRCloud: iirc you were the fella with the flats-let-out-for-btc . how's that coming along ?
The20YearIRCloud: Good, we should hit 85 rentals by end of year
The20YearIRCloud: Used the BTC to buy the first 18 if memory serves me right, rest has been bank capital and partnerships
asciilifeform: unless i'm missing something, that sounds like a terrible deal
asciilifeform: i.e. you spent btc presumably some months ( years ? ) ago, and letting them flats out for 'dust' today
asciilifeform: how many centuries to make the coin back ?
The20YearIRCloud: Including the BTC appreciation rate, or including what it was worth at the time?
asciilifeform: ( and that's if it exchange rate were to somehow freeze 4evah at current, even )
BingoBoingo: Including the USD crumble rate
The20YearIRCloud: Because matching the BTC appreciation/escalation with any investment is just about impossible.
The20YearIRCloud: Just like any service, good, etc ever purchased with bitcoin
asciilifeform: forget about matching, how about simply not burning the coin
The20YearIRCloud: What do you mean burning?
asciilifeform: i.e. you oughta get the btc you spent, back , at the very least
a111: Logged on 2017-12-10 01:32 danielpbarron: i replaced the coin used to by mine at the time i bought them, so that works for me
BingoBoingo: Vos intentai de nuevo?
The20YearIRCloud: From property income? Then yes if you consider the USD. From the outset I explained to everyone that we'd be dealing primarily in USD, accepting BTC from tenants wherever possible. As of today I've had a grand sum of 3 people ask me about truly getting involved in bitcoin
asciilifeform: oook so it isn't a btc biznisss at all...
asciilifeform: more liek what dell and microshit do
The20YearIRCloud: Correct, never was, it's a real estate business
asciilifeform: aite. snoar.
asciilifeform: !!down The20YearIRCloud
danielpbarron: glad i replaced them but to be perfectly honest i'd have been better off keeping both the bitcoin spent while also buying the re-up. I justify it as a hedge against possible bitcoin price decrease and as a public service for the republic
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: i'm thick; what means 're-buying the re-up' ?
danielpbarron: but if i'm gonna go down that road, shoulda bought 1k BTC for 1 USD. should have lived off ramen noodles for the last 7 years while i put all income into a wallet.dat
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: not too late to do the latter, neh
danielpbarron: well i spent 2 bitcoin on some FGs, then i bought 2 bitcoin. I should have kept all 4 bitcoin, right?
asciilifeform: hell knows, asciilifeform takes every chance ( rare chances...) to buy coinz
danielpbarron: it's unlikely i will ever have a fiat income again
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: dunno, sounds like your fg dealership was and still is an effective device for converting btc into fiatola to buy bread, at slightly higher efficiency than otherwise
asciilifeform: ( given as you immediately refilled btc coffer )
danielpbarron: depending on what time frame you look at, it's extremely lucrative
danielpbarron: 15 USD cost basis, sells for 200+ on eBay
asciilifeform: aha, see.
asciilifeform: folx still buyin' ?
danielpbarron: i've got over 1k USD in sales in just a week, but the last auction finished with no bids
danielpbarron: someone expressed interest in a gentoo laptop though, so that's my next eBay project
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: Have you thought about selling gentoo servers, specializing in easing the transition to Cuntoo?
danielpbarron: yes, actually
danielpbarron: i have those too
BingoBoingo: What kind of hardware are you building those with? As ISP develops would be nice to know what a republican box builder is offering.
danielpbarron: bought a bunch of things that asciilifeform mentioned. hp workstations with operteron cpus, ecc ram. got a bunch of 1 gig ssds etc
BingoBoingo: Ah, have you outlined a box you can build arbitrary quantities off using off the shelf parts?
danielpbarron: i'm working on a laptop now and of course my recipe doesn't work again. I'm gonna try cp -r'ing the distfiles in from a working box for the initial setup
danielpbarron: i don't know about arbitrary quantities, i'm sure asciilifeform would say the price spikes if you try to buy more than 10
BingoBoingo: Well, something you could produce 80 of, that's two racks
danielpbarron: hey if any hardware distributor has that qty of the thing we want, i can probably afford to pay for it in bitcoin and recieve a pallet
asciilifeform: 1 gig ssd ?!
asciilifeform: what's the use of a 1 gig ssd
danielpbarron: err, 1 tb sorry
BingoBoingo: It's something to look out for. Perhaps you could look into maximum desity apu traying too danielpbarron
asciilifeform: btw asciilifeform will reveal that he found a 'new' (to him) and very spiffy type of amd g-series box , suitable for trb and similar
asciilifeform: 'wyse' made a series of gui-terminals , but with sata disk , fanless , based on very similar mobo to 'pcengines'
asciilifeform: they are widely sold as surplus today, about fiddybux ( naturally diskless )
asciilifeform: 4 core @ 1.5G , 4G ram , dc brick included.
asciilifeform: some floating about that go to 1.7.
asciilifeform: GB nic.
asciilifeform: this is afaik the cheapest amd64 box 'bang for buck', currently around.
asciilifeform: and 4G typically suffices to run trb 'year-round'.
BingoBoingo: Interesting
phf: recent gpgme doesn't build with gnupg@1.4 out of the box
mircea_popescu: iirc they even said they're breaking it.
mircea_popescu: a few months after we standardized it (and without reference, OF COURSE)
mircea_popescu: << if only. he has a point, they're not all the same thing.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 14:39 asciilifeform: the differences are not in that some have roaches and others mice, no.
asciilifeform: !#s gpgme
asciilifeform never used it
mircea_popescu: << misstated. "a coin has been ~spent~". obviously it was minted whenever the fuck the possibility of having the item appeared, which is probably before the big bang.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 06:18 mircea_popescu: but yes, this comes with the necessity of considering eg as "a coin has been minted" ; i don't see as anything other than an abstract rendering of the exact practical reality
mircea_popescu: << why not ? great boating area, either you or girl ever saw uruguay ?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 14:42 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: possibly, but it dun make sense for just 1
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 14:46 BingoBoingo: Do remember if you choose to stay in my hostel to bring clothes you don't mind burning later porque los chinches de cama
mircea_popescu: almost like living in silicon valley!
phf: perhaps we can get g_l to move there
shinohai: Except the pests are actual insects
mircea_popescu: << there's always a better path through history with retrospective power.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 15:21 danielpbarron: glad i replaced them but to be perfectly honest i'd have been better off keeping both the bitcoin spent while also buying the re-up. I justify it as a hedge against possible bitcoin price decrease and as a public service for the republic
mircea_popescu: other than the "hey, i spent like 100k usd for these cufflinks" lulz, there's also "hey, this slavegirl who was doing basic training made like 100 btc freelancing in 2012. so i'm today ~2mn usd richer because owning obedient slut."
mircea_popescu: what am i supposed to say now, "if only i had five more and pushed them harder, i could buy a las vegas casino ?"
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 15:28 danielpbarron: i've got over 1k USD in sales in just a week, but the last auction finished with no bids
mircea_popescu: apparently shit asciilifeform makes sells ok, for just as long as it isn't him selling.
asciilifeform: tho gotta point out, every single unit sold to date was first 'him selling'
asciilifeform: and only then wherever.
asciilifeform: in other noose, raid cards work.
asciilifeform: << haven't yet seen uruguay, nope. but also haven't yet a boat.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 16:22 mircea_popescu: << why not ? great boating area, either you or girl ever saw uruguay ?
mircea_popescu: can rent
mircea_popescu: best way, as per teh older discussion re your newly discovered interrest in boats.
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu quickly figured out, asciilifeform's interest in boats is of a very peculiar kind, and not simply because he likes water.
asciilifeform: ( and i concede the point to mircea_popescu , boat prolly does not work for the contemplated use , in the general case )
mircea_popescu: which is my point, your interest in women consists of dreaming succubi.
asciilifeform pets succubus
asciilifeform: << traditional formulation is 'yesterday's lotto number'
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 16:26 mircea_popescu: << there's always a better path through history with retrospective power.
asciilifeform: << i was about to say, 'i've nfi what d00d is still doing in usa' but then remembered he's 1legged nao
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 16:23 phf: perhaps we can get g_l to move there
asciilifeform: going on 1leg is slow. esp if you have nfi that you oughta be going somewhere, and doped to 11.
asciilifeform: i also wonder whether gabriel_laddel ever considered vegas. it has slightly better odds than sv nonsense, and with fewer pounds of flesh required as table stake
shinohai: Is it just coincidence that asciilifeform pets succubus and diana_coman enters, or ..... ?
phf: hmm, re differ, we're basically nuking all "ignore" functionality, since from hash to hash..
asciilifeform: lol shinohai , will confess, asciilifeform never once met diana_coman
asciilifeform: phf: 'ignore', 'merge', anything pertaining to either
asciilifeform: a patch either applies cleanly or something is Very Wrong
asciilifeform: elsewhere, asciilifeform contemplates , of what is made the black soot that one finds inside servers. wish i still had where to gc/ms...
phf: yeah, but killing obviously bad code is so much easier then killing a not bad code that you don't need
asciilifeform: phf: there's no place for 'merge' as a concept in a vtronic system.
asciilifeform: sorta foundational.
phf: that's true, though "ignore" functionality can still work. in fact nuking all that stuff means that i will still need a traditional differ for code manipulation
phf: for example i have a set of patches that i've not had a chance to cleanup, that diff mp's addition on top of the released version of wordpress. that patchset could only by successfully produced by ignoring whitespace changes, and adding a handful of filters for cosmetic alterations
mircea_popescu: phf ayup.
mircea_popescu: phf the correct approach to this is pre-diff filtering masks.
mircea_popescu: stuff like "two spaces after dot" vs "one space after dot" and do not, properly speaking, belong in diff.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-17 03:52 mircea_popescu does his usual s%\n\n%\r\r% s%\n% % s%\r\r%\n\n% while muttering underbreath about the idiocy of fucktards who STILL DON'T UNDERTAND NEWLINE STANDS FOR NEW PARAGRAPH!!11
phf: right, or `indent'
mircea_popescu: yes. but it is a conceptual failure on the part of diff that it presents these.
mircea_popescu: when i diff i want to see what you changed, not what your editor changed.
mircea_popescu: (editor, as in, the human person, not as in the "editor" ie ide)
trinque awakes to see a trb node with wallet excised, synced to 200k
mod6: o.O
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> Except the pests are actual insects << Aha, persistent bugs, but yes. Can not fault them for following travellers.
shinohai: Are pyrethrins legal there?
trinque: mod6: this will probably end up being a separate branch. my needs with deedbot are diverging from "preserve grandfather's pistol".
BingoBoingo: Yes, but packaging only lists active pesticide ingredients by family here. Not by particular active ingredient and percentage.
mircea_popescu: trb-as for anti-sybil.
trinque: yeah, I'm cracking the thing open for maximum external control.
shinohai: That sucks, ou'll have to grow a fuckton of chrysanthemums and extract our own.
trinque: and if I understand this "trickle" thing correctly, wtf, that's coming out. what privacy? blast my txn to everyone you know.
mircea_popescu: early bootstrap is always ugly.
mircea_popescu: and yes, the original holder threads were never meaningfully revisited. this is a 10yo suture wound with the first silks still attached.
BingoBoingo: shinohai: The critters have numerous avenues for developing resistance to contact insecticides, so applying permethrins is typically an arms race. Hence leaning towards the imaclopramid solution.
mircea_popescu: because hey, "core developers" too busy eating my asshole.
BingoBoingo: Well did you bidet antes, despues, o ambos
mircea_popescu: it's a metaphore!
BingoBoingo: Metaphores can trasmit tastes!
diana_coman: in "only 2 years later" but since I did not find otherwise in the logs an answer to mod6's question at : that is simply the number of limbs, so a matter of size; since p and q are same size, it is fine there although arguably not helping the reader
a111: Logged on 2015-05-20 00:29 mod6: take a look at this: Is there any reason when allocating the space for p & q to do Eulers totient they would initialize the space with 'p' and 'p', instead of 'p' & 'q'?
mircea_popescu: bad coding altogether.
mircea_popescu: in that it bakes metasyntaxis into the code.
diana_coman: and in more recent lol-with-gpg: the primegen function in gpg allocates secure memory for candidate prime when generating for rsa BUT then it goes on and calls is_prime on that "n" and is_prime calculates and stores n-1 in ...insecure memory
mircea_popescu: cheap "cleverness" of the male virginarium aka monastery ; in same vein see also
a111: Logged on 2016-07-08 14:37 mircea_popescu: fucking "take moar oestrogen" confucius & "wanna hear our inept teenage boyish oneupmanships" zeo-dan derps.
asciilifeform: the 'secure memory' thing is entirely red herring imho. all it means is that it gets marked unswappable. but i dun have swap on any of my boxes, period.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, myeah, I suspect it's sloppiness, "but it's same thing"
asciilifeform: ftr i dun plan to include 'secure memory'ism in ffa.
asciilifeform: fuck swap.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, it's fine to say no secure memory,sure; it's not fine to pretend it is used but then "use" it like in the example
asciilifeform: koch wouldn't be koch if he did not write it like-so.
asciilifeform: at one point asciilifeform planned to cut out the allocator from mpi entirely, but ditched whole thing before ever getting there.
trinque: can't waste all the security anointing oil on one proggy. gotta save some for the rest of god's children!
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 17:13 mircea_popescu: and yes, the original holder threads were never meaningfully revisited. this is a 10yo suture wound with the first silks still attached.
asciilifeform: << this is how asciilifeform originally thought to make the file-moves thing, with the 'manifest', i.e. list of commands that get executed on the dataset pre-diff
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 16:57 mircea_popescu: phf the correct approach to this is pre-diff filtering masks.
asciilifeform: incl. mv, cp, tr/sed.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 18271.36, vol: 16334.75608486 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 17988.0, vol: 54696.77945933 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 18208.0, vol: 3801.41479341 | Volume-weighted last average: 18061.0283614
asciilifeform: ( who recalls the mircea_popescu tabs-spaces thread... )
trinque: hm, dunno whether I want to execute someone's script during a press.
diana_coman raises hand
trinque: or at least, scripting would have to be severely limited, lest the thing become vthereum
asciilifeform: trinque: sorta why i didn't particularly itch to go there
trinque: aha
asciilifeform: gets very ugly, very quickly.
mircea_popescu: secure memory as a concept is actually pretty good, if implemented correctly. implemented as "not swapped" it's not useful, but if it were "untouchable by any other" it'd be useful.
mircea_popescu: ofcoruse such a thing can not exist until we actually make tmsr-computer without dma
mircea_popescu: so in this sense i agree "secure memory" on current iron is not worth bothering with.
mircea_popescu: but the concept itself is sound.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is only meaningful concept if whole machine.
mircea_popescu: which yes, kock wouldn't be koch if he didn't live to try and befoul the tools of salvation through association with his turpitudes.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-16 01:53 asciilifeform: now you store bit as ~phase~ of the square wave, rather than absolute steady state of the flipflop.
mircea_popescu: women as in usg."women" and capitalism as in usg."capitalism" and "law" and so on forever.
asciilifeform: i.e. guaranteed 0-remanence.
asciilifeform: ( and naturally 0 swapolade or any other 'transparent' copying of anything at all behind the operator's back, in the whole machine, goes without saying. )
asciilifeform: ( the long-time reader will observe that this contravenes . tough cookies, don't do crypto on box with transparent copying. )
asciilifeform: sanity will involve a much greater degree of kitchen-toilet-separation than seen today.
mircea_popescu: << entirely not what's contemplated here ; asciilifeform spurious overloading of the concept unwelcome.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 17:35 trinque: hm, dunno whether I want to execute someone's script during a press.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plz expand then ?
mircea_popescu: the way this'd work would be as a list of rules ("no two consecutive spaces" or whatever) which the sources are checked against BEFORE diffing. should the check fail the options are either to propagate the fail ("file x not in format" error) or else to autofix (which'd work via sed).
mircea_popescu: exactly what the rules are is an open question, but basically the idea is to separate style from content in code.
asciilifeform: i guarantee that the 'autofix' will break something, somewhere, at some point, in a difficult-to-detect way.
mircea_popescu: which is something that was blunderingly and un-intelligently a red thread throughout coding ever since linux opened its eyes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform option is there. either fail or fix.
asciilifeform: (e.g. python, fortran, elsewhere, have significant-whitespaces)
mircea_popescu: for testing etc, fix i expect will be used. for publishing, i expect not.
asciilifeform: not all failures are immediate/detectable before it costs a battleship.
mircea_popescu: also -- if v breaks fortran then FORTRAN fixes itself.
asciilifeform: and you will annihilate, e.g., ascii-art schematics, if you dictate e.g. 'no 2 spaces'
mircea_popescu: the "backward compatibility" argument is no argument but a red herring. i will not break shit to match microsoft's sad history.
asciilifeform: adding arbitrary talmudiana is what microshit is made of.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so you will.
asciilifeform: i'm almost surprised that mircea_popescu hasn't yet thought of , e.g., anathemizing ascii in favour of own, arbitrary arrangement of alphabet, strictly for incompatibility's sake; or to proclaim the 17-bit byte...
mircea_popescu: code is not natural language. code is a highly structured, deliberately limited-expressive form of language. what is said re goes triple for code
phf: asciilifeform: chuck moore did that though..
asciilifeform: phf: afaik moore still uses ascii
phf: nope.
asciilifeform: what's he using, 5bit baudot?
mircea_popescu: wait i thought you didn't like it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i like breaking things when something is gained thereby.
mircea_popescu: something IS gained thereby.
asciilifeform: vs plain paint-the-grass-green.
asciilifeform: what specifically ?
mircea_popescu: i am NOT looking at difflists saying "and then special snowflake added a space and took out a tab"
mircea_popescu: exactly re <asciilifeform> ( who recalls the mircea_popescu tabs-spaces thread... )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu will probably enjoy 'p' syntax. char codes 0-32 and 128-255 do nuffin at all.
mircea_popescu: "no other char than tab up until the first alphanum in each line" is a fine rule ; and if someone discovers that he can't press his homebrew let someone fix his homebrew.
asciilifeform: (i.e. whitespace entirely insignificant.)
mircea_popescu: that's the thing : the moment you have unconnected expression, which is to say \t = " " you suddenly have the problem of style.
asciilifeform: you solve the problem by beating people with a stick, who emit the shit style.
asciilifeform: not with machine.
mircea_popescu: just as soon as something "is ignored by the compiler", that something now has to be treated somewhere else.
mircea_popescu: because you CAN NOT have such a thing as untreated item in code.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform machine is to take over stick from my hands in all domains.
asciilifeform: it isn't untreated, it gets skipped. ( 'p' prototype in 'strict' mode will also stop and eggog if encounters a non-7bitclean char. which one can connect to a stick, to beat author of input )
phf: asciilifeform: i've had a more detailed quote on the dead machine, but the less detailed equivalent is “I use my own 0-Z character set. It is a six bit character set. It only has upper case and there is no distinction between the letter "O" and zero.”
asciilifeform: aa so teletype.
mircea_popescu: anyway, this is the important, v-powered realisation here : there can NOT BE such a thing as bit-ambiguity in a source. if "this bit being either set or null has no effect" you have a problem, which must be addressed. because it sure as fuck isn't acceptabru to read diffs of style in a patch. patches are for substantive change.
asciilifeform: a whitespace-agnostic diff would be a not-useless thing. problem is that hashes are not whitespace-agnostic, nor could ever safely be.
phf: " I use space as a terminator and words execute immediately, there is no CR to mark the end of the line. There are no CRs, just space delimiters. I currently have BS and Delete. I would like to keep only two special keys, BS and a key to exit. I think I would prefer BS over Delete."
trinque: heads towards ast-diff, and people have their presentation layer do whatever with the ast while coding.
mircea_popescu: trinque i fear so.
asciilifeform: we actually had the ast-diff thread, re phf's lisp diff lament.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's unfortunate that hashes can't hash meaning, but then again we're stuck with babbage looking over one shoulder and turing over the other.
trinque: the whitespace thing though is a fine cut of it, since the next step incurs orders of magnitude more complexity (parser per lang)
mircea_popescu: trinque exactly my tho9ughts. "i don't want to go there. yet."
asciilifeform: the closest we can prolly ask for to 'hash meaning' is sexpr/ast.
asciilifeform: that's what linear array text is a cheap, impoverished hack approximation to.
asciilifeform: ultimately everyone is really eating the ast.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem is that no, not really. everyone is eating the "cvasi-hulang description of a meta-ast then watching in trepidation what ast comes of it". as per that
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 02:05 mircea_popescu recalls somewhat fondly old days of "put the model in and wait a few hours for to find out how you fucked it up this time"
mircea_popescu: but what we're diffingh and patching are properly speaking our own notes, not the asts.
asciilifeform: right. but the 'source' in yer head is, really , an ast, whether you end up hitting space 1ce or 3ce when you end up entering the text. and likewise when i read it, it gets reparsed into ast.
phf: the ast direction moves away from patches as literature (which is i think what mp is saying from a different direction?)
asciilifeform: phf: literature is entirely representable as explicit ast
mircea_popescu: it is an open and complicated q of whether what's in your head is an ast.
mircea_popescu: phf patches are in fact literature, yes.
mircea_popescu: and "asciiart" is imo the wrong direction to take at the "asciiart or literate code" fork in the road.
asciilifeform: whether it 'is' in fact ast, or merely representably as one with 0 loss, is the open q afaik
mircea_popescu: and the whole arguments with alphabets and alf's perennial "but i r creative speshul snowflake, must has hyeroglyphs"
asciilifeform: there ain't actually any orc glyphs in my patches tho
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if people thought in asts it'd be computers programming them.
asciilifeform: i'm still waiting to hear how mircea_popescu would represent e.g. the fg schematic, in ideal vtron.
asciilifeform: that's not humanreadable.
mircea_popescu: "svg". the thing that svg should have been.
asciilifeform: may as well represent as hexdump of jpeg.
mircea_popescu: not at all.
asciilifeform: much as i like sexpr, a sexpr dump of a vector drawing is not humanreadable either. at least not with my puny brain, i have nfi, perhaps mircea_popescu can render these in his head as he reads'em ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is a specious argument ; "o noes, little em impulses on a platter are nor readable with my puny fingers"
asciilifeform: if i can't read it with eyes -- it may as well be a uuencode, neh
mircea_popescu: you use machinery to turn data to comfortable representation ; the "human readable" is not about "being able to stuff my dick in power socket".
asciilifeform: how is that speciousargument
a111: Logged on 2017-12-18 16:33 mircea_popescu: trinque can you run <g id="graph0" class="graph" transform="scale(1 1) rotate(0) translate(4 15840.7)"> on a dataset composed of log link references / nick references ?
mircea_popescu: where i can change the DISCRETE data bits independently ; as well as their adnotation.
asciilifeform: this thread is incidentally pretty great , it is exactly the one from 2016 but with the sides switched. ( earlier it was mircea_popescu who insisted -- in the orig 'clearsigning' thread -- on human-eye-readables )
mircea_popescu: for signed matter ; as an exception.
phf: i supper proper presentation of fg schematics in a v-tron is either in the style of the marine chronometer book i have next to me or not at all. "taking first the essentials, c is the escape wheel. the escapement consists of the bar E, carrying the two projections e, e' etc". everything else ought to be handled separately
mircea_popescu: nobody will EVER find themselves in the situation of BOTH a) hurr durr, i am at leisure now let me make a patch and b) o noes, i am in distress now, can not run basic machinery.
mircea_popescu: whereas when it comes to clearsigned matter, you CAN find yourself in a b and a is not applicable.
asciilifeform: unlike fella , asciilifeform cannot actually read 7bit ascii without a machine tool either
asciilifeform: so i have no argument against 'must use mechanical renderer to read/modify, and we'll use this-here interchange format'
asciilifeform: so long as the format is actually well-defined, and doesn't require whole world to be bent around it at infinite cost
mircea_popescu: certainly.
mircea_popescu: phf what is the problem with svg ?
mircea_popescu: would you say graph as extant on wot.deedbot is not patch-ready ?
mircea_popescu: guy could actually publish the item as a succession of patches, and speaking of this : hey trinque, could you be enticed to actually genesis that item, and patch it weekly ?
trinque: could sure; I'd have to inspect the svg and see if it's readable. it's coming out of graphviz.
asciilifeform: why wouldn't you vtronify the most parsimonious representation of an item that you have, though
mircea_popescu: either one special key or one new key each week, as you feel like.
asciilifeform: in this case, the input and the generator for the plot
mircea_popescu: but the idea is, getting an automated patch process going may throw a different light on this whole thing and turn out most informative.
trinque: certainly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform to see what happens.
mircea_popescu: this isn't for going to war with ; this is for checking out the tool(s) with.
asciilifeform: out of curiosity, how big is the expanded item ?
mircea_popescu: 1e4 kb sorta thing
mircea_popescu: im sorry. 1e4 B sorta thing.
phf: mircea_popescu: i think the differ and rendered for the ~diffs~ is significantly different from what our current foundation is. so in principle i don't see an issue with svg, as long as you can get the ~diff~ out of the vpatch itself, rather than say, pressing original, pressing new and then eyeballing the differences.
asciilifeform: half a MB
mircea_popescu: o wow, check that out, almost 1e6 yea
mircea_popescu: phf either i'm not understanding what a .vpatch is or wut ?
mircea_popescu: how do you go from state to state other than through a diff/patch ?
phf: you don't necessarily need to go from state to state, you can understand the nature of change by reading the vpatch
asciilifeform: ( in re svgism, did everyone present at some point read henderson's orig. graphics article ? from 1980 iirc )
mircea_popescu: but the entirety of what vpatch is, is "here's what changed from node x to node y"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform pretty sure, yea.
asciilifeform: ok good.
phf: right
trinque: asciilifeform: link for teh poor youfs?
asciilifeform: trinque: is modern rewrite , the original (linked) is an ancient pdf.
asciilifeform: and ahahah dead link,
mircea_popescu: phf was your idea that "well maybe you just don't have a very clear picture of what x was in the first place, gotta press to it" ? ie, accumulating mental errors over the patch flow to GET TO x ?
phf: also has nice treatment in e.g. sicp
asciilifeform: and elsewhere.
asciilifeform: and in old thread mircea_popescu observed that it is almost same idea as in earlier 'postscript' .
mircea_popescu: there was some discussion as to the history of typographical ideas in the log somewhere
asciilifeform: there was. subj goes back many decades.
mircea_popescu was doing typography at some point, did some reading on the scholarlity of it.
asciilifeform: ( re phototypesetter etc )
asciilifeform: 'analogue gpu'
asciilifeform: 'set this-here bit to change the lens to such-...'
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm not sure that was my idea :) restating what i'm trying to say is that i can derive meaning out of vpatch by reading it, but i'm not sure i can likewise derive meaning out of a svg diff by simply reading it. i suppose the assumption here is that svg was produced and edited by computer means, where imposing meaning on the sequence of modifications is not the primary (and often tricky) concern
mircea_popescu: the assumption here is on the meaning of "meaning"
mircea_popescu: yes you can derive meaning, and of the exact same kind in both cases. but you flatter yourself with that kind being "true meaning" in the first case because you can, and you can't in the second so you don't.
asciilifeform: imho this goes right back to ; thread is really about what is the minimal expected tooling
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 18:14 asciilifeform: unlike fella , asciilifeform cannot actually read 7bit ascii without a machine tool either
mircea_popescu: people read the same bit of code 500 times and still miss the EVIDENT bounds error.
mircea_popescu: just like you can read the svg and miss the EVIDENT implication.
phf: break out that rule paper and work out the graphics like a man
mircea_popescu: you DO that with code yes ?
asciilifeform: and asciilifeform can read hexdump of x86 , mostly without hiccuping, and mircea_popescu prolly can read pdp11 oct dump, but yet for some reason folx pass around sources...
mircea_popescu: "no i don't need to" "why do you think this ?" "stop bothering me, troll."
asciilifeform: ( remember when having an asmer/disasmer on a micro was uncommon ?? )
asciilifeform: 'why do you need this, just peek, poke'
phf: well, that goes back to the meaning question. with code i don't get ascii codes as ints and then have to paper out the actual text before i can work out meaning. in fact what i do put on paper is almost never related to the written code itself. in the case of mechanical graphics though, my first step is ascii-to-characters
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 17:24 diana_coman: and in more recent lol-with-gpg: the primegen function in gpg allocates secure memory for candidate prime when generating for rsa BUT then it goes on and calls is_prime on that "n" and is_prime calculates and stores n-1 in ...insecure memory
a111: Logged on 2017-12-11 20:01 diana_coman: asciilifeform, fwiw I read it as in went through it line by line and with pencil and paper; ran it too at the end, played a bit around with tests and that; and since we are at this, nitpick: in FZ_Swap why T:=X if already initialised at declaration or what am I missing of Ada in there?
mircea_popescu: woman just announced she found an allocated and unused mpi in mpi.
asciilifeform: it ain't in mpi
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's cut of mpi did not include primegen or rsa.c
mircea_popescu: it is a very naive notion this, "i don't need to, i understand". you, odds aren, don't, and this isn't something to be ashamed of.
asciilifeform: (nitpick)
mircea_popescu: merely to be guarded against.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this goes all the way to the fact that we dun actually ~understand~ rsa ( in that there is no proof that you ~must~ factor to break ; or what the complexityclass of factoring is )
asciilifeform: troo capital-letter Understanding is a rare bird.
mircea_popescu: hence, nothing to be ashamed of. but ALSO can't just pretend it ain't there lalala.
mircea_popescu: phf so i take it you much preferred classical to analytical geometry in school ?
asciilifeform: soldier isn't asked to pretend that enemy mg nest 'dun exist'. but he isn't given the option of not advancing 'because futile anyway'.
phf: i think you're trying to cut with a broad sword, where scalpel is required
mircea_popescu will confess his interest in geometry during school was ~nil up until functional analysis finally morphed it in, at which point WOW! geometry is cool!!
mircea_popescu: or maybe we've lost track of what we're arguing here. what's the argument ?
asciilifeform: 'what kind of constraint difftrons may impose' ?
mircea_popescu: i thought it was merely whether they can impose constraint at all.
phf: your argument is that careful work aids in understanding, my argument is that when a computer spits out 30mb svg, it's not any kind of understanding to repeat computers work by hand to recreate that svg
asciilifeform: the current one definitely constraints ( 7bit ascii; no ---/+++ ; possibly others )
asciilifeform: pointedly, no moves/copies (without considerable cost) , which spawned the thread
mircea_popescu: phf i thought i said explicitly the proposed patching of svg is merely TO TEST the patching system from a diff perspectrive.
phf: mircea_popescu: no no, unrelated to the current actual svg experiment
mircea_popescu: ye, here we have regular (this is important) and high volume (also important) hose. and people do irregular (not just as time) and low volume, so this is categorically differentiable from all other patches.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the "no ---/+++" went away in discussion last round, when phf's notational view prevailed
mircea_popescu: phf then related to what ?
asciilifeform: i was referring to classical unixdiff
mircea_popescu: yeah, we're three people talking three disjunct things here. let's come to common ground.
asciilifeform: ( which is still in use on my boxen, for lack of a ready replacement )
asciilifeform: i'ma brb, try with 2people
mircea_popescu: as to the narrowed down " it's not any kind of understanding to repeat computers work by hand to recreate that svg" << it may not be. but it may well be. the fundamental problem with "time can be but wasted" is that there are no categorical cuts available. spinoza polished lenses and miller worked for the cosmoccocic company. deciding aforehand what tractor work is worth doing by hand is notoriously and to this day the chief
mircea_popescu: and unresolved problem of management.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-17 05:49 mircea_popescu: let's try and understand this : running a house without a bipedal dishwasher, either in personam or as the role only, to be filled by whichever of the available persons according to some (arbitrary, male-oppressive-phalocentric, etc) criteria results in the situation where you gotta pay 3 cents whenever you use a fork. what has been saved ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i think that's when one of those arguments where poking at it we discover there's no any substantial disagreement. i think we're thinking of same thing but from slightly different direction. i was thinking whatever we come up with for graphics will still have a gui interface, where one can use a mouse, etc. to lay out and modify objects. in that case and given existing models a diff will produce a lot of mechanical noise, which is accid
phf: ental to understanding. if on the other hand the language we make is designed to be authored by hand, and is authored lightly assisted by tooling, then there's opportunity and a kind of cognitive pull for the author to make the changes as meaningful as possible. i'm basically ok with working somewhere on that spectrum, but i was preemptively ranting against the kind of patches that communicate nothing but accidental floating point jitter of the graphic
phf: , or whatever else of that nature
mircea_popescu: a large portion of what's being studied there is just how feasible a "quiet" producer of svg is
mircea_popescu: because obviously fp jitter & c will drive every human up the wall. but then again having the generator not generate it prolly requires work. and so on.
asciilifeform: does svg permit polar coords ?
mircea_popescu: but the general problem, "how polluting machine genreators HAVE to be and how would they not be" is a very important point
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would be useful in thatparticular application fo sho.
asciilifeform: ( if not -- try and change size of the circle in the plot, 'quietly'... )
mircea_popescu: nah, any frame changes would be ~new genesis practically.
asciilifeform: if so, that's pretty brittle.
mircea_popescu: anyway. while neither pressing nor essential, these are important considerations. we see.
mircea_popescu: more importantly : these are things which were never discussed publicly, nor does there exists this system where "ideal pollution of machinery is attemptedly measured to be reduced".
mircea_popescu: if this was ever discussed at all, it was discussed thrity years ago at parc or w/e.
BingoBoingo: In other pressing but not essentials: The fellow at the datacenter meeting confirmed my suspicions, I have seen few Argentinos in Montevideo porque Argentina es un pais pobre.
phf: mircea_popescu: yeah, MIT/symbolics concerned themselves with these things too (the whole "presentation" concept is that of a entity that's equivalent between code, internal presentation and inline rendering)
mircea_popescu: aha. it's inescapable in sufficiently advanced programming ecosystems
mircea_popescu: but note that while we have the web log, mit didn't.
asciilifeform: parc in particular dug into the ast thing
asciilifeform: but afaik never got farther than the structure-editor
mircea_popescu: and "here's what i remember of what phf and alf said 15 to 45 years ago" is not nearly the same thing
asciilifeform: nobody had anything like thel0gz, or v.
mircea_popescu: (there's a major but poorly understood and never discussed advantage of the log, in that it empowers my very "eccentric" except fundamental "i don't remember any names" [ and both references] : by being released from the need to preserve history myself, i can radically cut items which empowers heuristics not otherwise acc
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 21:32 mircea_popescu: in any case ; i am notorious for a very poor memory, including complete inability to remember say actresses names.
mircea_popescu: essible to the man captive in "either you remember it AS IT WAS or IT IS LOST FOREVER!!")
mircea_popescu: so this, i would count, as the foremost and most notable application of tractor to IA. logs.
mircea_popescu: and why i didn't come to the same conclusion as alf, "more memory is better". not for me, i have enough for what i use it for.
asciilifeform: meat memory is cache.
asciilifeform: if all yer workingsets fit in yer cache -- thank molloch, sure , no cause for complaint.
mircea_popescu: blessings are often discovered by accident.
mircea_popescu: anyway, the recently linked kay interview struck me as exactly this : "check out the retarded monkey, discussing 1960s ex memoria. no wonder he sounds like an idiot"
mircea_popescu: because yes, alan kay sounded like a fucking idiot.
asciilifeform: d00d did 100% of his useful output in 1960s-70s.
mircea_popescu: and on napkin paper.
asciilifeform: but , importantly , nuffin since
mircea_popescu: no but look. how the fuck can anyone at mit even stand, or for that matter sleep at night. WHERE IS THE LOG
asciilifeform: who was it, napoleon, 'if only there were a bullet here for me, i will be remembered as a great hero'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cannonball, in moscow.
mircea_popescu: guy was grandomanious enough, bullet insufficient.
asciilifeform sings, '...Die Musketenkugel macht ein kleines rundes Loch Die Kanonenkugel macht ein viel grösseres noch...'
mircea_popescu: "and if everyone had a fucking log where the fuck would mit ever find space to pretend it matters"
asciilifeform: otoh kpss had a log. didn't help
asciilifeform: ( not so many yrs ago, their olgl0gz were finally printed , e.g. hruschev's sessions , a little bit interesting to archaeologists )
mircea_popescu: oh oh. i was thinking the statistics test
asciilifeform: lolno, the other kpss.
asciilifeform: ck-kpss.
mircea_popescu: it's a good open question this, "go research and answer why ck-kpss log did not work for them"
mircea_popescu: possibly DID work, for that matter -- surely lasted longer than first socialism.
asciilifeform: possibly because плохому танцору яйца мешают (tm)(r)
asciilifeform: but pre-mechanization log is of quite limited use compared to current item.
mircea_popescu: or as in romanian, "spune-i lu' ma-ta sa nu se mai futa beata"
mircea_popescu: there is that.
asciilifeform: ( 90+% of utility of log is... search )
mircea_popescu: 60% or so. a good quarter is the reference-read.
mircea_popescu: first system ever seen where the dead live amoing the living as a quite plainly factual matter.
asciilifeform: the 'ancients' , notably, were obsessed with 'can haz search'. recall vannevar bush's elaborate 'steampunk' schemes for optical/analogue search in text
asciilifeform: search was a holy grail. and plenty of folx were quite convinced that -- once 'can haz' search -- valhalla of intellectual 'ia' might
asciilifeform: but яйца мешают , turned out
mircea_popescu: sure. but i tell you, speaking dead is another major.
asciilifeform: all writing is for speaking dead. ( even before properly buried; arguably the asciilifeform of 3yr ago is every bit as dead as his ancestors)
mircea_popescu: yes, but without the line-reader they stay dead.
asciilifeform: without reader, the gods themselves -- dead.
mircea_popescu: goes right into discussion of memory above. memory of a different kind, more resistence-of-the-medium-y.
asciilifeform: resistance of medium cuts both ways. iirc punctuation in 1200s (?) was slow to catch on, 'wastes parchment'
asciilifeform: ditto spacing
asciilifeform: 'why wouldja do that, letters could go there'
mircea_popescu: = was invented what, 17th century ?
asciilifeform: (descartes ? )
mircea_popescu: and possibly absence of 0 (and it's later humiliation as O) comes from similar thought
mircea_popescu: "why waste a spot for inexistent, 4 could go there"
asciilifeform: 0 , near as i can tell, was a genuine blind-spot
mircea_popescu: << "instead of wasting space for a nop, this improved cpu has two mults"
a111: Logged on 2014-01-04 00:00 asciilifeform: re: 400: 'for your convenience, we have packaged the defective ones separately.'
mircea_popescu: "it's important to avoid negativity"
mircea_popescu: !!up sonic3
deedbot: sonic3 voiced for 30 minutes.
sonic3: hi
sonic3: thanks for the +v
sonic3: i remember talking to you earlier this year
sonic3: about running a full node
mircea_popescu: !#s sonic3
sonic3: something i saw on trilema
mircea_popescu: different name ?
sonic3: wasn't using this nickname
sonic3: anyhow, that's not the point
sonic3: i remember you said i should use a specific version of the node daemon
sonic3: one that you were maintaining?
mircea_popescu: i'm not maintaining it, the bitcoin foundation is, but anyway, sure.
sonic3: think you can lend a hand to the build process if i get stuck?
mircea_popescu: possibly ; or if not someone else might.
asciilifeform: sonic3: there are at least 4 people here that will readily help. but you really oughta register with deedbot
sonic3: that'd be greatly appreciated
sonic3: i will immediately after i start the node tonight
sonic3: thank you asciilifeform and mircea_popescu
asciilifeform: sonic3: care to say a little re who you are ?
sonic3: i'm pretty secretive
asciilifeform: it is good form to introduce yourself, as people usually do
mircea_popescu: * sonic3 (5668bf07@gateway/web/freenode/ip. has joined #trilema <
asciilifeform: romanistan ?
sonic3: but when my ip will be ... yea
sonic3: bucharest, romania
mircea_popescu: aanyway.
sonic3: yea, don't let me keep you, i feel like i've jumped into a bigger picture here
sonic3: !#s andreicon
a111: 63 results for "andreicon",
sonic3: c'ya in 30 mins
asciilifeform: !!key andreicon
asciilifeform: hm alreayd registered... lost the key??
sonic3: yesss
mircea_popescu: i think his idea of "pretty secretive" was rather in the vein of ; ie would like to start over under a nerw identity.
mircea_popescu: which... sure, whatever.
sonic3: lost the hardware
mircea_popescu: one's years are that one's to lose.
asciilifeform: hey if d00d lost key -- he's stuck staying dead, or being reborn, as he picks.
asciilifeform: sonic3: they haven't invented backups on yer planet, or wat
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dja know what's 80% of "halp can't log into eulora anymore" ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: either that or forgot to plug in mains, lol
mircea_popescu: "i resetted factory defaults"
mircea_popescu: this notion of computing you're familiar with is not used in the tivoputer lands.
asciilifeform: how do they even play, on their keyboardless nintendo
mircea_popescu: laptops (BRAND!!1 ones) come with this magical "make it back".
asciilifeform: this is old hat, it was orig a dell thing , reinstalls winblowz automagically
asciilifeform: from 'seekrit' disk partit
mircea_popescu: i imagine there's people out there regretting their wife doesn't come with a "reset factory defaults" button, and would be VERY shocked to discover i'd very much consider it a disaster, in the line of
asciilifeform: can be a bitch to erase, too, often it's bios-locked in some underhanded way
asciilifeform: the comedic bit is that it helpfully reinstalls the branded keyloggers etc.
asciilifeform: you wouldn't want chumper to install from cd ( they dun give'im a cd, in any event )
asciilifeform: btw i once encountered an interesting artifact , from scrap dealer. it was a pci card made for orc 'web cafes', that took 2 ide snakes. each expected identical disk. twist : all ~writes~ went to the 'aux' snake. reads, first to aux, then to primary. and there was reset button.
mircea_popescu: see, because cd then needs drm. this hdd partition thing is an improvement there.
mircea_popescu: lol egyptian ide rom
asciilifeform: ( winblowz, as most-everyone knows, won't boot off an actual read-only device. so these steampunk hacks. )
asciilifeform: when asciilifeform found this piece of flotsam, he tried to requisition moar , from vendor, to use in shitware analysis farms ; no dice, defunkt.
mircea_popescu: aaand in other "ancient trilema slavekeeping lulz",
asciilifeform has nfi what is used in modern orc cafes. maybe, nuffin at all; maybe, slave reinstalls weekly with bare teeth.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was in cafe last week. computer took 5 minutes and >12 warnings/popups to ... not load a page.
mircea_popescu: this was not a boot. the machine was booted and firefox up. just, COULD NOT LOAD A PAGE.
phf: asciilifeform: nintendo, if nothing else, is a single purpose machine, for gaming, designed by the "salariman can have fun with family 13:00-15:00 sunday" japanese. imho preferable to tivo
mircea_popescu: kaspiersky and av-something i forget both had advertisements up on the screen about how they're doing things.
mircea_popescu: phf i rthought that was amiga.
asciilifeform: phf: you remind me of asciilifeform's brother's reaction to being shown a vr headset , yrs ago. he spake thusly : 'it's better than two rusty nails on a rope'
mircea_popescu confesses to unreliable ignorance on the topic.
asciilifeform: naaah amiga was an actual comp
asciilifeform: ( beat the shit out of the 386, bang-for-buck, too )
mircea_popescu: wasn't nintento the original winner of the ipod hunger games, where boys had one in pocket at all times ?
BingoBoingo: They were
mircea_popescu: but then apple targetted women and stole their cake because boys may hunt, but women reliably nest and that's that ?
BingoBoingo: Well, problem was Nintendo mad their first ipods TOO robust, machines never died
asciilifeform: there are plenty of working 8 and 16bit nintendoae, still to this day
asciilifeform saw one recently
mircea_popescu: hey, the 2010 ipad still works great for cutting carrots on
asciilifeform: fanless, diskless, glassless, ~indestructible
phf: all this and more would've endeared tmsr to nintendo if not for the fact that nobody here plays anything but variations on Global World Domination Campaign Mode (Ultimate Strategy)!
asciilifeform: phf: i actually considered cryptotron in form of a nintendo (or similar) cartridge.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-15 14:50 mircea_popescu: in case anyone's curious, the 20 bux was for encouraging the folk who made viking age, which is a quite passible browser game. sorta old warcraft style graphically, othertwise a tower defense married to the old bonbon "city development" azn thing.
phf: there's also a special version for mp, where you can have a general avatar, who's a scantily clad elf babe
asciilifeform: then failed to procure the box, or a usable display for such, and promptly stoppedconsidering
asciilifeform: ( and i dun like how ntsc screens radiate )
phf: russian space program style you should also fit a MOD decoder into the last 27bytes of memory
mircea_popescu: either that or a galois space functional whose results on odd numbers counting from 17 produces a picture of a naked woman sucking cock.
asciilifeform: i'd be only mildly surprised if mircea_popescu revealed that he knew this function
asciilifeform: and can compute using match sticks
mircea_popescu: o shit, the matchsticks
mircea_popescu: is that mindbender solved yet, btw ?!?!?!
asciilifeform: i dun think phf was witness to the match trick
asciilifeform: dunlookatme, i didnt solve
mircea_popescu: why not!
asciilifeform: i still even have hanbot's 'proof of actually-having-known-the-number' sheet, pinned to wall
asciilifeform: but -- notsolved.
ben_vulpes: that fuckin thing
asciilifeform: it was a bewilderingly great trick.
a111: Logged on 2014-04-22 13:17 asciilifeform: a matchbox. push it, one side pops out, printed with answer!! 'CORRECT.'
asciilifeform: that'd be other, asciilifeform's, matchbox.
ben_vulpes: still not convinced that no hanky panky was involved
mircea_popescu: not quite the same thing.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes being convinced would be homomorphism of having solved.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: all magic trick is 'hanky panky'
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: 'magic trick' vs 'as yet unbroken cipher'
asciilifeform: but recall, we did establish that it was a matter of matches, and not eye blinks.
asciilifeform: nor foot taps.
ben_vulpes: did we?
asciilifeform remembers very well, the occasion.
ben_vulpes: how was that established again
asciilifeform: i could even find again this cafe in buenos aires.
asciilifeform: if i were put there.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc : hanbot turned around
asciilifeform: mod6 was there, saw
asciilifeform: and mike_c, sat to my left , also saw ( where the hell is mike_c )
ben_vulpes: rolling out radical piles of features at okcupid
ben_vulpes: including (omg!!!1) keyword search
asciilifeform recently demanded ( and was granted ) not to be listed in public document as author of $saecularwarcrime
trinque: meh, folks are gonna make money where it's available, doesn't excuse avoiding the forum.
ben_vulpes: hey, life and wife and kids and job and commute and and and i can readily see how difficult it'd be
asciilifeform: ( whole thing , interesting )
mircea_popescu: couldja read that ?
asciilifeform: well yes, i did not randomly throw a knife at it, lol
mircea_popescu: i was just trying to be helpful!
asciilifeform: i wouldn't propose to translate it for public consumption, no
mircea_popescu: but the gist being that "communism failed through misapplying force" is not an argument against application of force, it's an argument against giving anything, force, the time of day, to idiots aka socialists.
asciilifeform: 'Дай дураку топор' (tm)(r)
diana_coman: <- hmmm, I'm certainly not one for graphics much, but tbh a graphical tool that results then in a lot of noise when diffing outputs sounds like a bad tool to me
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 18:56 phf: mircea_popescu: i think that's when one of those arguments where poking at it we discover there's no any substantial disagreement. i think we're thinking of same thing but from slightly different direction. i was thinking whatever we come up with for graphics will still have a gui interface, where one can use a mouse, etc. to lay out and modify objects. in that case and given existing models a diff will produce a lot of mechanical noise, which is accid
diana_coman: because basically I get to "choose" between: model it non-graphically and it's clear or use the "simpler" gui that makes it then 100 times harder to follow the changes; is that it or what am I missing there?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> o shit, the matchsticks << funny enough, was just thinking about this yesterday.
phf: diana_coman: i believe the word spectrum is mentioned literally in the same rant
phf: further down asciilifeform elaborates that even technically "noise" is not necessarily just a property of "bad tool", e.g. changing the radius of a circle in cartesian coordinates
diana_coman: so more like how much mismatch between the two representations (diff vs tool graphical or otherwise) is tolerable given that this mismatch inevitably creates noise?
phf: yes, i think so, though i will further add that's not question of just diff, but rather the mismatch between mechanical actions and serialization format in general (there's a lot of bad examples, like dreamweaver, word, etc. and i can't recall any good examples)
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 06:09 phf: << 11753, well that's enough for tonight
asciilifeform: oh hey hey hey lbj!!
ben_vulpes: how many lines of code did you kill today!
phf: i should probably check if it still works..
asciilifeform: in other 'news' , holy FUQ a 24cpu box in small enclosed space is LOUD
asciilifeform: ( and not even at full gas )
mircea_popescu: yes, actually, phf's formalization is prolly the natural schelling point here. "there's an impedance mismatch between procedurals and serializations and this needs care and feeding."
mircea_popescu: this is not the ~whole~ problem, but certainly a pole.
mircea_popescu: btw, happy half millionth block day!~
mod6: ^
mod6: hey hey!
danielpbarron: in other lols, i created an asset on that XCP counterparty thing years ago and i'm looking at it now. thing has a market cap over 1k USD and not only that, people have actually been trading it in the last half a year. some guy even has what the site claims is 800 USD worth
BingoBoingo: lololololol
danielpbarron: and i also apparently have ~800 USD worth of an asset called CAKE
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> in other 'news' , holy FUQ a 24cpu box in small enclosed space is LOUD << other difference between old and new hall. New has better acousting dampening
BingoBoingo: Old hall sound like Embraer 145 I took STL to Houston
danielpbarron: hm, this site is hard to read, and i can't imagine this is actually correct, but my CAKE might be worth 3.3 BTC ...
diana_coman: sounds like a very nice cake danielpbarron
mircea_popescu: delicious cake ?
shinohai: <<< All these dorks throwing coin into XRP, which isn't even a proper crypto, just because coinbase is gonna partner with 'em or something.
trinque: a fool and his money soon become a Lord's caek.
asciilifeform: << why wouldja care how loud in the dc hall ?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 21:45 BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> in other 'news' , holy FUQ a 24cpu box in small enclosed space is LOUD << other difference between old and new hall. New has better acousting dampening
shinohai: ^ moar delicious looking than caek, elves ....
diana_coman: does anybody know precisely what function mpi_tdiv_q_2exp from "sane mpi" does exactly? as we were talking of understanding of code earlier
asciilifeform: diana_coman: has the goodz. they renamed it , tho, mpz_tdiv_q_2exp .
asciilifeform: 9 out of 10 times you can find clue re what an mpiism was, by looking in'ere.
asciilifeform: ( replacing 'mpi' with 'mpz' )
asciilifeform: ( tldr : it's an arithmetical, i.e. sign-extending, right-shifter. )
mircea_popescu: what happens if k=0 ?
asciilifeform: what's k ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, what do you say the result should be when the count is 0 ? (k as mircea_popescu says)
mircea_popescu: k, the counter.
diana_coman: and even more to the point: what is the result in mpi sane?
asciilifeform: work it out : limb_cnt will be 0 ; the inner if takes the 'else' branch; MPN_COPY_INCR(w->d, u->d , u->limbs ) is the resulting call
diana_coman: so mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, number, 0)
asciilifeform: MNP_COPY_INCR we find in include/mpi-internal.h , and is a straight memcpy-style copier.
asciilifeform: so the thing will do what a human rightshifter does when given 0
asciilifeform: ( try it with mine, btw )
diana_coman: so what do you say the result is, asciilifeform ?
asciilifeform: result is , per my naked eye, that it doesnuffin
asciilifeform: (i.e. what comes out is what was put in).
diana_coman: so if I call it with result, number and 0
diana_coman: at the end result will be what I put in aka number?
diana_coman: because no, it's not; it's what I put in aka result
asciilifeform: waitasec
asciilifeform: check this out :
asciilifeform: #define MPN_COPY_DECR( d, s, n ) \
asciilifeform: mpi_size_t _i; \
asciilifeform: for( _i = (n)-1; _i >= 0; _i--) \
asciilifeform: (d)[_i] = (s)[_i]; \
asciilifeform: } while(0)
asciilifeform: #define MPN_COPY_INCR( d, s, n) \
diana_coman: heh, I know
asciilifeform: mpi_size_t _i; \
asciilifeform: for( _i = 0; _i < (n); _i++ ) \
asciilifeform: (d)[_i] = (d)[_i]; \
asciilifeform: } while (0)
asciilifeform: ( apologies for clutter. ) wtf is (d)[_i] = (d)[_i]; ???
asciilifeform: and, moar importantly , wai
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I can tell you what it wants to be, lol
diana_coman: it wants to be a straight copy
diana_coman: because dividing n by 2^0 aka 1 means result should be n
asciilifeform: this is prettygreat
asciilifeform: what it is , is a noop
diana_coman: but it doesn't work because i=0; i<n
diana_coman: when n is 0 guess what
diana_coman: so result is in fact incorrect
asciilifeform: nao next q is why does the caller appear to work
mircea_popescu: _i >= 0; vs _i < (n); is the point here.
diana_coman: because it works around this specifically BUT without making it clear
mircea_popescu: symmetry didn't work like teh author imagined it would.
diana_coman: caller (primegn) in this case does a very weird thing - the one that actually GOT me into investigating and therefore finding this
diana_coman: namely: it needs to calculate nminus1 / 2 ^ k but it does NOT call mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, nminus1, k)
diana_coman: instead it does first copy(result, nminus1) and then mpi_tdiv_q_2exp(result, result, k)
diana_coman: because k can be 0 and so it needs to initialize result with nminus1 before the call, just in case...
mircea_popescu: an epic example of as there was ever had.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-27 15:03 mircea_popescu: "if i make it what i think it should be it crashes"
mircea_popescu: evolved software.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that utterance was originally from a former 'patient' of asciilifeform's
asciilifeform: verbatim. d00d actually said it, sadly
asciilifeform: and lived it.
mircea_popescu: evidently, not alone.
mircea_popescu: << i fished it out of search. but yes, reason it's in quotes is because it referenced the earlier original.
asciilifeform: phunphakt : this yr's gentoo stage3 all include systemd (disabled, sure, but BINARILY PRESENT motherfuckers)
trinque: aha, the rot is accelerating.
trinque spent yesterday stepping a musl build from gcc 6 -> 5 -> 4
trinque: asciilifeform: is this the systemdtronic udev, or whole shebang?
trinque: if latter what of openrc, headed to the gallows?
asciilifeform: ought to be specific -- it's the mere fact that a binturd of name 'systemd' is present.
asciilifeform: it gets extracted when you untar.
trinque: "eudev" exists as an alternative to the systemd-udev. dunno what else the heathens stapled to systemd meanwhile
trinque has eudev in his standard recipe
asciilifeform: only eudev remains usable, aha
asciilifeform: btw trinque is your recipe on www ?
asciilifeform: i've been trying danielpbarron's ( which used , in turn, pieces of mine , which was merely a list of banned turds )
trinque: exercise began when I went to run it, found parts no longer working due to mas futuro.
trinque: so now polishing and collecting *all* distfiles, will publish that when ready
trinque: part of the exercise will be to get a statically linked adatronic gcc, with which to build gnat from inside the musl system.
asciilifeform: very neato
trinque: incidentally cuntoo is a fine name for a reproductive gentoo
asciilifeform: naturally
asciilifeform: !#s cuntoo
asciilifeform: ^ curious when 1st popped up
asciilifeform: hm only in july ? could've sworn was seen before.
asciilifeform currently marveling re how much ~time~ , as well as space, is wasted in autoconf
asciilifeform: it's srsly 99% of build time. and single-threaded.
danielpbarron: my recipe is broken again. i'm currently testing a script i wrote that manually makes the ebuild digests based on files i have on already running machines
danielpbarron: if this works, it should be a pill against all future shitkgnomery, but will requiring hosting about 2 gigs of files
asciilifeform: that's notbad
danielpbarron: please forgive my typos, not using the most ideal keyboard
asciilifeform: funnily enuff the box i'm making nao, is destined to become (among other things) a cuntoo mirror.
danielpbarron: and yeah let me add my support for the name "cuntoo"
asciilifeform: btw i finally measured current at full throttle: 330W .
trinque: danielpbarron: excellent re: preserving distfiles. I've got a few piles, bet asciilifeform has too
asciilifeform: tbh i do wish we were using a bsd as the base
danielpbarron: not out of question. i have the cds for versions 5.5 through.. 5.9 i think
asciilifeform: but the results ( at least in asciilifeform's torture room ) have been disappointing, currently afaik nobody even knows why bdb ignores locks knob ( perma-hosing trb ) !! under bsd
asciilifeform: !#s netbsd
a111: 223 results for "netbsd",
trinque will keep a few unixes around, needn't marry only one
danielpbarron: oh, i assumed openbsd
a111: Logged on 2017-08-06 03:43 asciilifeform: my suspicion is that the bdb locks patch somehow has no effect when bdb built on netbsd
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: do you have a depoetteringization recipe for openbsd ?
trinque: ideally what we end up with is a ports tree that builds on more than one (sane!) system
trinque: and then, can have one or more sane systems.
asciilifeform: trinque: a separate q : can haz fully depythonized port system ?
trinque: asciilifeform: openbsd is a tree of makefiles
trinque: what made you balk previously was the lack of system-global fatwah against useflag, package, etc
asciilifeform: aaaa yes
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, no. i haven't used obsd for years. and by used i mean tried to install again
asciilifeform: trinque: no banhammers -- it's a useless item
asciilifeform: trinque: although, the end of the line in my eyes is : a fully deautoconfized set of packages.
asciilifeform: but i dun expect to live to see this.
trinque: aha, were I making my own ebuild/makefile/whatever for emacs, it simply *wouldn't have* dbus support and fuck you.
trinque: no need for a useflag there
asciilifeform: all useflags do is throw items into ./configure --blahblah...
trinque: in this, I have (and it's trivial to) maintain own package makefiles which depend on other openbsd ports.
trinque had a muntzed emacs port while sitting on obsd.
asciilifeform: trinque: what didja end up having to change in it ?
asciilifeform: just the dbus nonsense ?
trinque: that, whatever else, don't recall now. sound maybe, other strange.
asciilifeform: sound?!!
ben_vulpes: if an email player, why not a music reader?!
trinque now goes to ./configure --help to recall teh lulz
trinque: gconf, gsettings, various image nonsense, pdf support, it goes on.
asciilifeform: i dun remember any of this liquishit in vanilla emacs
asciilifeform contemplates placing trb on ramdisk on this box
asciilifeform: it'd... fit.
asciilifeform: if the sync behaviour weren't so atrociously retarded, this'd be a pretty simple thing
asciilifeform: lost power ? whocares, wait 20-30hrs while thing resyncs from nearby box
asciilifeform: ( in yer own fleet, naturally )
BingoBoingo: No particular reason to care, but it's a detail to be noticed
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: if it takes 6months to resync -- i care
asciilifeform: recall dulap-1 and its phuctor.
asciilifeform: if enemy can cost you 6months by pulling yer plug -- expect plug to be pulled. weekly.
asciilifeform: fact is, trb sync is ragingly retarded. as in , microshit-level.
asciilifeform: i literally couldn't think of a worse algo.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Was re also a bit of awe there
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 22:36 asciilifeform: << why wouldja care how loud in the dc hall ?
BingoBoingo: Not a very big space, not very big fans and yet...
BingoBoingo: impressive song
asciilifeform: dulap-III has only 4 fans, plus 5th in ps, none of'em any bigger than a 'D' battery. and yet sounds quite like shopvac at full blast.
BingoBoingo: What kind of shopvac? they happen on a spectrum
asciilifeform: the ordinary.
BingoBoingo: Ordinary as in...
BingoBoingo: 2, 4, 32 hp?
asciilifeform: !~calc 32*746
jhvh1: asciilifeform: 32*746 = 23872
asciilifeform: dat's a lotta watt
asciilifeform: where do i get 1 of these ? it eats wat, 3phase ?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo had one ?
BingoBoingo did not have, but heard rumblings such exist for mega dust extraction systems
BingoBoingo: eats petrol
BingoBoingo: Or my leg was doing pulled
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 16580.58, vol: 24446.40044085 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 16564.0, vol: 74792.47914798 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 16899.9, vol: 4642.31637987 | Volume-weighted last average: 16582.9127144
mircea_popescu: !!up slacko_16322
deedbot: slacko_16322 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: << this wasnt finished. that thing does nuffin , regardless of the loop termination condition
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 22:48 asciilifeform: ( apologies for clutter. ) wtf is (d)[_i] = (d)[_i]; ???
asciilifeform: how did anything invoking this proc, ever work ??!
hanbot: << sorta-kinda on topic, i attempted a trb install in the field last week, was *thrilled* to discover curl doesn't ship with ubuntu 10.04 (?!)
a111: Logged on 2017-12-19 23:24 trinque: so now polishing and collecting *all* distfiles, will publish that when ready
hanbot: did a cursory look for republican utils package, found nothing, huffed off in frustration.
asciilifeform: pretty sure that mod6 hosts a curl, at trb www
asciilifeform: along with errything else
asciilifeform: ... hm, apparently not!
asciilifeform: with what do you intend to load it, tho, if lacking
asciilifeform: curl belongs on the boot cd
danielpbarron: i just ran into my gentoo usb iso thing not having 'man'
asciilifeform: btw some very large share of 'no can haz trb, plz help' in the logs to date, feature shituntu
asciilifeform: shituntu's place, is the oven.
mircea_popescu: get curl via wget lol
asciilifeform: i assumed it, too, grew legs and ran away
trinque: isn't bash capable of netcat-style networking these days?
trinque ducks
mircea_popescu: maybe it's a systemd clal.
asciilifeform: use the os in the intel nic.
mircea_popescu: FACTORY RESET
asciilifeform: ( laugh, but minix was recently found in the intel fritz thjng )
a111: Logged on 2017-12-20 00:05 trinque: gconf, gsettings, various image nonsense, pdf support, it goes on.
asciilifeform: 1st time i heard of such a thing
mircea_popescu: wasn't it proprietary in the first place ?
asciilifeform: pdf on linuxen typically goes in massive, nominally open (openssl-style, i.e. wholly unreadable) pile of shit called 'ghostscript'
mircea_popescu: so emacs has ghostscript ?!
asciilifeform: 'The sound must be stored as a file in RIFF-WAVE format (‘.wav’) or Sun Audio format (‘.au’).' << suggests vintage
asciilifeform: betcha that was an option for 20yrs nao
asciilifeform: when was last time you saw an au.
mircea_popescu: i never saw an au.
asciilifeform: i did. on a sun. in.. 2002?
mircea_popescu: who plays sounds on suns.
hanbot: anyway trinque looking forward to distfiles collection --i'll be switching over to gentoo from the ubuntu mess soon. i've been fucking around with it for far too long, as asciilifeform in other words ;p
asciilifeform: nobody afaik.
mircea_popescu: this item is a lot like a car lighter socket popcorn popper.
mircea_popescu: does 8-10 kernels.
asciilifeform: exactly same
danielpbarron: just noticed my stripped down gentoo has a shit load of web browsers in /usr/portage that i never told it to install. what's the deal with that?
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: didja look in the stage3 ? were they in it ?
asciilifeform: or waiwat, in portage??
trinque: portage is just the ebuilds, has everything.
asciilifeform: if its in portage, its a port, eh
asciilifeform: has errrything under the sun
trinque: look in /var/lib/portage or w/e for your particular system state, if you want to inspect
trinque: world file in there for example
asciilifeform: they're ports !!
asciilifeform: not installed proggies
danielpbarron: ah, well my very basic script is wasting time digesting them :/
trinque: what was the aim of the script?
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: you surely know what are ports
danielpbarron: do not assume i know what i'm doing here lol
asciilifeform: ports, in gentoo world, are little scripts for building package
asciilifeform: there's one for every known 'gentootronic' item that one could build.
asciilifeform: they're what you get when you did emerge --sync
danielpbarron: the aim of my script is to install the base system from my own pre-downloaded files because the initial emerge @world barfs over conflicts that developed since the last time i used my recipe
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: plz post this barf if you still have it handy
asciilifeform: it will be of use
danielpbarron: i think it jammed at something-db
trinque: literally only thing necessary to make this happen is to fill /usr/portage/distfiles (or wherever you've declared distfiles to reside) is filled with what the ebuilds you use will demand.
trinque: analogous to trb deps folder
trinque: (there may be ebuilds out there that do not respect this, but they are sinful ebuilds)
trinque: you'll notice if you reinstall items, it's not downloading tarballs again; it's finding them in the distfiles folder.
danielpbarron: stage3 sounds like the problem here.
danielpbarron: sounds like a cancer actually
trinque: gonna be hard to say without knowing exactly what you were doing.
danielpbarron: i copied /usr/portage from my currently working machine to this laptop that's still chrooted from the usb booter, then ran a script that does: ebuild * digest where * is all *.ebuild in that directory
trinque: what was the aim there?
trinque: digest produces a new manifest of hashes for the distfiles mentioned in the ebuild
trinque: (iirc)
danielpbarron: after it's done i'm gonna do emerge --ask --update --deep --newuse @world
trinque: I dunno where you got the "digest" step; it's something you'd be doing when heavily modifying or producing own ebuilds
danielpbarron: that's how i got my specific kernel version into the recipe after they removed it from the official repository
trinque: ah. there's a mechanism for this that might be cleaner than editing the portage dir. I intend to use it in the cuntoo thing.
trinque: "portage overlay"
trinque: which obviously can be a v-tree of ebuilds.
hanbot: danielpbarron didja post somewhere about why you chose a kernel version not in repository?
trinque: as things get reposessed from the gentoo shitgnomes, can move their modified ebuilds from /usr/portage into /cuntoo or w/e
danielpbarron: hanbot, it used to be in the repository. they removed it after i published my recipe, not even a month later
trinque: anyhow running digest on every single ebuild just means you're rehashing all the files for each ebuild.
trinque: which doubtful they were all modified.
hanbot: hah wth
mircea_popescu: in other not-really-news, 1408 (cussack, jackson) isn't even that terrible.
danielpbarron: and i picked that particular version because it is the newest one that supported my video card
mircea_popescu: "stuck in room" flavour of horror.
hanbot: ah okay
danielpbarron: you liked 1408?? i don't like that guy
mircea_popescu: which one ?
danielpbarron: most cussack movies
mircea_popescu: he's a great actor imo ; but yes total pantsuitard, keeps doing idiotic scripts.
mircea_popescu: it's a wonder he and norton didn't end up married. he could have implanted all the tit fat they scooped out of angelina jolie and adopted a buncha west african urchins.
hanbot: predicting what movies mp'd like is a long hard road peppered with "oh come ON"s
mircea_popescu: now try predicting movies i'd like and hadn't already seen.
danielpbarron: i guess it's not the worst one. just a guy going crazy in a room. but still ends up having to do with trying to save a woman or something
mircea_popescu: notrly, he just dies.
mircea_popescu: it's not the usual "here's four dumb bitches on a TV show set" like that atrocity with johnny depp
danielpbarron: no idea what you mean there. i guess the only depp movie i saw was fear and loathing
mircea_popescu: what was it, somewhere in canada "old castle" of "vampires" which oddly consist of california feminist can't-shut-up zsa zsa gabors v2010.
danielpbarron: have you done a review of "no country for old men" yet? would very much like to read that
mircea_popescu: haven't, no.
hanbot: iirc he objected to the lack of trees in the landscape and said something about there not being any film for old men either and turned it off. but i could be misremembering...
danielpbarron: how about "cold in july"
mircea_popescu: hanbot wtf was the canada castle vampires atrocity ?
hanbot: i think that was some burton thing..."dark shadows"?
mircea_popescu: !~google dark shadows johnny depp
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Dark Shadows (film) - Wikipedia: <>; Dark Shadows (2012) - IMDb: <>; Dark Shadows Trailer Official 2012 [1080 HD] - Johnny Depp ...: <>
mircea_popescu: yeah that thing
mircea_popescu: 10 minutes in, it's like "welcome to real la housewives VII"
mircea_popescu: oh, and the ATROCIOUS "computer enhanced" female actors. jesus god really, that untalented hack heathcote not only missed her only life's calling (which doubtlessly is playing the WAG for some retarded athletic team from aussieland) but actually looks like a whole filing cabinet's worth of anime fell on her ?
phf: i had a similar reaction to dark shadows, what a disappointment.
mircea_popescu: i was not inb the slightest appointed. i knew going in it's gonna be CGI-for-TV. with a cast of idiots...
mircea_popescu: in other isadumba heathcote highlights, "Christian and Ana decide to rekindle their relationship, except this time there are no more rules or punishments."
mircea_popescu: it's this very fucking thick vein of ustardian dumb, with "strong" women of a very peculiar chimp-like sort, and token "men". i suspect the whole thing is a continuation into a thin pretense of adulthood of some idiot girls' ken-and-barbie pubescent fantasies.
mircea_popescu: i mean... they played house since they were 5yo and mom bought them a cubic metre of plastic, HOW HARD COULD MOVIES BE
mircea_popescu: anyway. america pre trump.
hanbot: have you seen any post-trump movies?
mircea_popescu: usually films take 18ish months. too soon.
phf: my concern is post-trump their going to churn out stuff like dunkirk, men films about men bonding for men that are menly
asciilifeform: in other finds, >>>> 'make localmodconfig' actually does it.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-11 17:43 asciilifeform: trinque: i'm particularly curious re how you trimmed modules. many crapolade modules don't give any obvious indication that they are useless, there is no mechanism for generating a list of 'THESE we actually need, because of the installed iron, and these -- not'
a111: Logged on 2017-05-11 18:02 trinque: could build all video related modules, then reboot, modprobe them all, cd /usr/src/linux && make localyesconfig/localmodconfig
a111: Logged on 2015-03-24 21:14 trinque: danielpbarron: you can use localmodconfig for that
asciilifeform: oh hah.
trinque: only way I ever make a kernel
asciilifeform: it does find a buncha spurious liquishit tho
asciilifeform: ( goes blindly by what's loaded, but not all mods actually abort if they dunfind the iron )
trinque: mhm, I don't think the menuconfig step can be avoided for a serious kernel.
trinque: still helps narrow the "what might be interesting" a bit
asciilifeform: oh yea no question of avoiding.
asciilifeform: but if i never have to boot up a 'i have nfi what is this nic' box again, it'll be soon enuff.
phf: % ./vdiff -u a b
phf: --- a 595beeb13e543b7107c182bb23ac7766bd62ab3122e250e90573eb540f89520122150e5f69bb99140bc47ab526c9b7b2a3b2402b09b44b7391501a149876765c
phf: +++ b b91e1bccfe010e28e544ebc1cdc2e6030f88a899a13c78d521b46d19801a065aec3c81bae6a0238fd6a01d22c314888a0c483c9c74384aee1e4f288e76ff57b8
phf: @@ -1,2 +1,2 @@
phf: hello
phf: -world
phf: +doom
asciilifeform: wassthis
phf: an all-c vdiff
asciilifeform: this is still classical format tho, right ?
phf: correct
phf: well, now comes the hard part :)
asciilifeform: holy FUQ :
asciilifeform: man: command exited with status 1: /usr/libexec/man-db/zsoelim | /usr/libexec/man-db/manconv -f UTF-8:ISO-8859-1 -t UTF-8//IGNORE | preconv -e UTF-8 | tbl | nroff -mandoc -c -rLL=96n -rLT=96n -Tascii
asciilifeform: ^ fresh gentoo box, in response to any man command
asciilifeform: dafuq is this zsoelim idiocy
asciilifeform: it ain't on any of my old boxes.
asciilifeform: elsewhere on the net, 'We have received reports that the man-db package as supplied in Debian GNU/Linux 2.1 has a vulnerability in the zsoelim program: it was vulnerable to a symlink attack. This has been fixed in version 2.3.10-69FIX.1' << ahahahaha THAT's why it's in there.
phf: i wonder if we're just witnessing some sort of criticality point, where everything is starting to rapidly deteriorate under the weight of maggot work
asciilifeform: long ago reached.
asciilifeform: man-db dun re-emerge, either
asciilifeform: barfs with half a MB of eggog.
asciilifeform: oh guess what, it dun like gcc-4.9 .
asciilifeform: tbl: /usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.9.4/ version `CXXABI_1.3.9' not found (required by tbl)
phf: asciilifeform: one property of the new vdiff already is that ---- situations work, e.g.
asciilifeform: wtf is tbl even
asciilifeform: part of troff, apparently
trinque: asciilifeform: I referred to the stairstep down to get gcc 4 earlier.
trinque: did you start with 6.x?
asciilifeform: naturally
asciilifeform: that's what was in the stage3
trinque: aha, I had to build 5.x, gcc-config to switch to 5, then build 4.
trinque: and you're going to have to rebuild @world after 5 -> 4
asciilifeform: and if i already built 4 ?
asciilifeform: and world with it ?
trinque: no idear, I haven't gotten it to work.
phf: asciilifeform: tbl is venerable, part of grey beard tools, that nobody uses, like eqn or pic
asciilifeform: the q is , what other bins on this box will bomb
asciilifeform: and how am i to build world without'em.
asciilifeform: motherfucking dynamic linking.
asciilifeform: wonder if there's a way to ban it, for whole box. permanently.
asciilifeform: no dyn libs, period.
phf: LFS
asciilifeform: 'The GNU C++ team works hard to avoid breaking ABI compatibility between releases, including between different -std= modes. But some new complexity requirements in the C++11 standard require ABI changes...' motherfuckers
asciilifeform: phf: wassat
asciilifeform: phf: funnily enuff, systemd is mentioned in them there docs.
trinque: of course, not everyone implemented the static use flag.
trinque: why would anyone want that.
asciilifeform: trinque: forget autoconf flags. i want to disable the generation or loading of dyn libs, period.
asciilifeform: as in, no elf can invoke dyn lib.
asciilifeform: and gcc will never produce one.
asciilifeform: consider.
phf: hah. well then
asciilifeform: ( and yes, i'm quite aware that, e.g., valgrind, won't work on such a machine )
trinque: must be organ-chopping week. first trb wallet, now musl dynloader and gcc linker
asciilifeform: it'd have to be on a musl box
asciilifeform: otherwise 0 point
asciilifeform: ( picture the elephantine drepper glibc in every bin )
asciilifeform: In file included from top/top_nls.c:24:0:
asciilifeform: top/../include/nls.h:9:23: fatal error: ../config.h: No such file or directory
asciilifeform: .... Failed to emerge sys-process/procps-3.3.12-r1
mircea_popescu: zsoelim << wut ?
mircea_popescu: holy shit this is retarded.
mircea_popescu: there's literally an "utility" to munge dots into filenames.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-20 03:17 asciilifeform: trinque: forget autoconf flags. i want to disable the generation or loading of dyn libs, period.
mircea_popescu: << preserved for future generation lulz (the original dir was /torvalds/linux/blob/master/include/linux/nls.h )
asciilifeform: * fit into 16 bits; as of Unicode 5 valid code points range from 0
asciilifeform: * to 0x10ffff (17 planes, where each plane holds 65536 code points).
asciilifeform: Unicode has changed over the years. Unicode code points no longer fit into ...
mircea_popescu: TORVALDS.
mircea_popescu: the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people they can't possibly say "to hell with ye"
asciilifeform: i can neither add to nor subtract from this.
asciilifeform: << i've never heard of, or seen , this item before, it ain't on any other box i have . and yet it breaks man pages -- all of them -- on the box.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-20 03:43 mircea_popescu: zsoelim << wut ?
mircea_popescu: yeah arcana
asciilifeform: i mean, it never before existed in gentoo, it's apparently an imported debianism.
asciilifeform: ( was it added because manpages are now infested with uniturds ? i've nfi )
hanbot: shows up in ubuntu 10.04, heh.
mircea_popescu: shocking!
shinohai: What *doesn't* Ubuntu have in it?
mircea_popescu: curl, apparently
hanbot: zing
phf: to be fair soelim is part of troff suite going back to bill joy's original. i suspect zsoelim is some recent groff addition.
mircea_popescu: it was a hack!
asciilifeform: i still dunget why i need a 1972 phototypesetter driver kit in my linux.
mircea_popescu: for unicode.
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha
mircea_popescu: you don't understand how the logic works.
asciilifeform: evidentlynot
mircea_popescu: what is prepending z even supposed to denote ? zdumb ?
mircea_popescu: zwindowz znext ?
asciilifeform: zorplfmatic.
mircea_popescu: i honestly didn't even fish "soelim" out of the zsazsagabordaemon
asciilifeform: me neither
mircea_popescu: zs is a transliteration of a sound in some language i speak, it got eaten as such
asciilifeform: i eat it as a ж for sumreason
mircea_popescu: !~google zsuzsana cerveni tits
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Cine sunt finaliştii Vocea României. Chirilă şi Despot, în lacrimi ...: <>; Gabriela Gaby Wolscham in Playboy November 2014 (11-2014 ...: <>; Nika Fleiss in Playboy - April 2011 (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: apparently it also breaks google.
asciilifeform: oh hey trinque can we ban app-misc/ca-certificates ?
phf: asciilifeform: mostly because it's not a phototypesetter driver
asciilifeform: why is this warcrime on the box.
trinque: asciilifeform: fuck 'em
trinque: oh you mean method by which? no idear; I bet everyone's mother wants them.
trinque: btw I bet you have zswhatever because "nls" useflag
mircea_popescu: what's with you and boston accent nao ?
asciilifeform: good time to find out ~who~ wants'em and forwhat.
asciilifeform: trinque: why would i have nls flag
trinque: mircea_popescu: who me?
mircea_popescu: yes idear!
trinque: lol
trinque: turns out half my family is from boston!
asciilifeform: bostonr
trinque: the ear on this guy
mircea_popescu: you know they actually say "a rear" there when they mean area ?
trinque: well if you're removing Rs gotta stash 'em somewhere
mircea_popescu: phf what is it ?
mircea_popescu: at&t's adobe acrobat. literally from 1960.
trinque: asciilifeform: nls use flag was on by default, is present in my banlist
asciilifeform: trinque: is your banlist posted somewhere ?
asciilifeform: i'm still using my, original.
trinque: USE="-dbus -systemd -wayland -pulseaudio -gtk3 -icu -accessibility -nls -ipv6 -ldap" << with various in package.use
mircea_popescu: how the fuck can he do that ? does he have NO sensitivity whatsoever ?
mircea_popescu: it's a fucking metal chain. they make industrial abrasives out of chain.
mircea_popescu: they used to shoot chain at enemy ships in the age of sail! to destroy them!
shinohai: "You had your chains, and you fucked 'em"
asciilifeform: 'the chainshot carried off both'melegz, goddam them all...'(tm)(r)
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm not sure what to say, we're like multiple cycles deep into rhetoric here, inception style. i will say though, all this misdirected hate can't be good for digestion, i fear for asciilifeform, he might crack under questioning
asciilifeform: say, why misdirected.
asciilifeform: quite correctly imho directed.
mircea_popescu: phf let's stick to factuals. 1. is groff or is groff not a "free and open" gnu theft of troff ; 2. was or was not groff a thinly veiled excuse by at&t coders who wanted a pdp to get it, because "they'll make a patents editing system" ? 3. did they or did they not simply copy roff, 1960s era item ?
mircea_popescu: and quite literally phototypesetter, at that.
asciilifeform: ( also i'm beginning to suspect that i'm doing this all wrong. prolly what oughta be done is to track down freebsd circa 2002 , ALL of the necessary pieces, and work from THAT . )
mircea_popescu: or else debian sarge.
asciilifeform: trickier, didn't iirc ship with 100% src
asciilifeform: and lacked anything like portage
mircea_popescu: no portage ; but yes srs
asciilifeform: you gotta have a ~source~ dependencygraph.
trinque: here, I'll go ahead and post this early, if we're abandoning ship.
asciilifeform: or it ain't salvageable
mircea_popescu: unless you mean like drivers.
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
asciilifeform: a 2002 kernel will neither boot nor run on extant iron. but userland can and must.
trinque: lacks the whole reproductive bit
mircea_popescu: a 2012 kernel will not run 2002 userland.
phf: mircea_popescu: but the factuals are not necessarily under dispute (~soelim~ is not a phototypesetter is what i said). original hate was against "never seen this wrecker thing before", then when new fangled thing turned out to be an old tool, hate shifted to 1960 phototypesetters. methinks the point is a traveling one..
asciilifeform: mircea_popescuL then THAT's what needs doctoring
asciilifeform: ( i fully believe that it -- out of the box -- won't )
mircea_popescu: phf hate was re two things. a) i utterly failed to parse z(item) into (item) so hated ; and b) soelim was a dirty hack [atop a meanwhile pointless item].
asciilifeform: phf: i dun grasp why box needs troff.
asciilifeform: and why manpages ain't straight txt.
mircea_popescu: or straight latex
asciilifeform: troff, roff, groff, whatevertheeverlivignfuckroff.
mircea_popescu: fuck, they could be html and it'd be better than this nonsense.
trinque: gay latex is right out
phf: what trinque said, there's no "straight latex", it's 1.6gb of liquishit
asciilifeform: tho, sadly, 'small' by current liquishit standards
asciilifeform: ( and asciilifeform actually, shudder, ~uses~ latex )
phf: i've actually recently went through an exercise of trying to spin up knuth's plain tex as a standalone typesetting system. it's nearly impossible
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha
mircea_popescu: am like... mp, what are you doing ?
asciilifeform: phf: i also tried this, ~decade ago, quite impossible
asciilifeform: latex ate tex eons ago
asciilifeform: 'embrace & extend'
mircea_popescu: is the hate stirll travelling or is it merely a universe-zsized ball of hate ?
asciilifeform: zszszszs.
trinque: real quick, only serious thing missing from the cuntoo script is commanding lilo to ignore all devices but the target disk.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, ~i've~ found something to hate, so i joined the fray
mircea_popescu: and ftr, there's no excuse to EVEN HAVE soelim at all ; let alone as a standalone wtf
trinque: if anybody knows the answer to that riddle, the rest of the "reproduction" is trivial copying of files
mircea_popescu: trinque --ignore neh ?
trinque: (the other cut of the lilo thing is to simply say "thou shalt not have other drives plugged in when cuntoo is spawning)
trinque: mircea_popescu: ignore, but gotta do by device name, and per
mircea_popescu: tsk right you are
mircea_popescu: well, seems "the other cut" wins seeing how otherwise3 you gotta enum.
asciilifeform: trinque: you forgot to add net.ifnames=0 to kernel boot args
asciilifeform: to disable the infuriating 'let's rename eth0 to asjtghuidfjhiuorhjgr0 ' item
phf: mircea_popescu: well they've believed in the whole "single tool for a job" thing back then, and yes it was a hack (not in a sense that soelim is such a tool, but in a sense that tools that soelim is a glue between poorly designed tools)
asciilifeform: which is -- yes -- standard in kernel nao
trinque: asciilifeform: thought I touched something in there that does it
mircea_popescu: does gentoo bake dns into the kernel, debian style ?
trinque: maybe not
mircea_popescu: phf right.
trinque: ah the udev rules thing; asciilifeform's solution would be better
asciilifeform: it's sop on my boxen but i forgot to include it in my 2015 recipe
phf: plan9 rewrote their soelim as a shell script..
asciilifeform: how about it goes to oven. and the crapola that 'needs' it, also to oven.
asciilifeform: and what needs ~it~ -- also.
asciilifeform: and so on.
mircea_popescu: and then we can play golf.
mircea_popescu: cuz candy crush is right out!
asciilifeform: aztec golf. with heads.
phf: right, traditional games, like throwing discus and wrestling
mircea_popescu: i thought it was throwing dis cunt
phf: that's evening program
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