Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2017-12-05 | 2017-12-07 →
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i cannot resist to ask, where do i buy some 'arbitrary iron' ? right now i only got concrete iron
asciilifeform: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 12649.92, vol: 15099.62688961 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 12639.0, vol: 63644.53889962 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 12754.4, vol: 4211.65584461 | Volume-weighted last average: 12646.8465019
RagnarDanneskjol: mircea_popescu I believe 2 or 3 ladies will be available to interview by this weekend. please standby. I'll just point them to the great hall [here] unless you want them elsewhere
BingoBoingo: I have arrived
asciilifeform: congrats BingoBoingo !
asciilifeform: how is the jungle, how -- the jaguars ?
BingoBoingo: So far the shower at the office has hot water.
BingoBoingo: Have seen litle nature so far. Lightening the load at coworking office to hostel size before their checkin opens. Very friendly people.
BingoBoingo: Mega mission of the day is calibrating the ear to this accent and recovering from mega ear pressure confusion
BingoBoingo: TSA did open up bag with the server and network switch helpfully leaving note.
BingoBoingo also to explore and take pictures
mircea_popescu: << pretty sure i "accidentally"-ed a hundy or so at some point, look carefully through the couch cushions.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 15:21 trinque: to date, deedbot made like 0.0002, and so what? it'll make more in the future, and it'll buy more with what it made idem
asciilifeform: in other 'let's steal trilema article and publish with flipped sign bit',
mircea_popescu: but what proof do you have.
asciilifeform: insufficientlyproofyproofofproofiness
lobbes: Congrats BingoBoingo!
lobbes: In other jungles:
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 12:40 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i cannot resist to ask, where do i buy some 'arbitrary iron' ? right now i only got concrete iron
mircea_popescu: lobbes apparently there was problem.
mircea_popescu: anyway, administration of all kinds would be GREATLY improved by permanently losing access to all computing.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 13:14 BingoBoingo: I have arrived
mircea_popescu: << to quote some bum, "where am i going."
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 12:54 RagnarDanneskjol: mircea_popescu I believe 2 or 3 ladies will be available to interview by this weekend. please standby. I'll just point them to the great hall [here] unless you want them elsewhere
mircea_popescu: << loller i guess you're throwing those out then ?
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 13:21 BingoBoingo: TSA did open up bag with the server and network switch helpfully leaving note.
BingoBoingo: Well, probably investigating them. Switch is still new in box unconfigured, server hasn't been more than assembled
BingoBoingo: They did leave the inspection note
BingoBoingo: as opposed to hiding it
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: man in sov restaurant, gets up to go piss, leaves a note on his table : 'i have spat into this soup, do not steal' . returns, to finds scribble under his note : '...i spat in it also, yours, anon'
mircea_popescu: !!pay BingoBoingo 0.01
mircea_popescu: nao don't go casinoing.
BingoBoingo: Far too soon for that
BingoBoingo made a quick walk around the neighborhood, has to reorient to sun's new location as opposed to ye familiar old compas
mircea_popescu: didja pack a camera btw ?
diana_coman: BingoBoingo, can add picture of inspection note to the rest of "local flora&fauna" pics
BingoBoingo: I packed two. Baking a first blog post. Got few pictures en route because it turns out airports and planes are boring. Also clouds most of the flights.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: I will save that for the post when I actually open the networking equipment. Right now gotta calibrate my ears to this accent
mircea_popescu: but yes, airflight ain't all it's cracked up to be. only seems a big deal before ape invents airplane.
mircea_popescu: much like marriage seems much more of an ideal state to 13yo than later on.
asciilifeform: !#s bathtub catapult
a111: 5 results for "bathtub catapult",
mircea_popescu: incidentally, re that : i don't think most people are equipped to evaluate how much it'd suck. i base this on my own experience, whereby i didn't understand what sex in tub is like before trying.
mircea_popescu: my knees were scabbed for weeks.
asciilifeform: 'knife fight in phone booth' (tm)(r)
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> but yes, airflight ain't all it's cracked up to be. only seems a big deal before ape invents airplane. << Only really big deal besides boredom and comms blackout is barotraumo to the ears
mircea_popescu: by the time you crashland you're more or less CNCd into a ball already. just like an egg that was tumbled with rocks.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you're supposed to suck aircock the whole way, didn't the stewardess tell you ?
BingoBoingo: No, none of them did.
mircea_popescu: maybe they were doing it discreetely.
mircea_popescu: or maybe you didn't fly with HookAir ?
BingoBoingo: Well, i did forget it was a thing and underestimated how big a deal it would be until first leg of trip ended
mircea_popescu: #trilema fails to warn.
mircea_popescu: poor bb DID say he's total noob.
asciilifeform while BingoBoingo flew, slept, and dreamed that he was conscripted into american army; and when asked 'where do you want to go' answered 'let's straight to 'nam, get it over with' and was sent.
BingoBoingo: Well, #trilema did warn, but forgot
mircea_popescu: a did it ? i forgot too.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so did you get nam over with by your own self or was there a sidekick ?
BingoBoingo: then Republic of Texas to Panama was napping while descent started, damage done
asciilifeform: with plane full of other cannon fodder. but that's all the detail that was painted.
asciilifeform: somehow in 'dream logic' it seemed entirely unsurprising that 'nam' were still a going concern.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo incidentally, i often get ear popping IN THE CAR, getting down from fortress mp to civilisation.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform only gets ear pop in the subway.
asciilifeform: somehow never on planes.
mircea_popescu: maybe your ears are directional.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: AHA, missouri hills are what I was expecting
asciilifeform: fuckknows
mircea_popescu: incidentally, in re : Party of Heroes prolly best one of the entire whole lot.
mircea_popescu: imo it's the definitive showcase of the platform.
mircea_popescu: ie, isn't a port from system with kbd-and-mouse, but actually designed / thought into the terms of a tapdevice.
BingoBoingo: brb, explore mode
hanbot: congrats BingoBoingo :)
deedbot: << Trilema - Various multitudes
diana_coman: mod6 or asciilifeform, can you help? I'm trying to press asciilifeform's second patch for sane-mpi and V complains that it can't find the vpatch file although it is there (and I checked the sig too and it's all fine); I'm running your V, version ; I have the following folder structure:; Here's the error when I run v press verbose . mpi_second_cut.vpa
diana_coman: tch: Error! Could not find vpatch "mpi_second_cut.vpatch" ; when I run v a mpi_second_cut.vpatch I get: Error! Could not find vpatch "mpi_second_cut.vpatch"
asciilifeform: diana_coman: is it in your patches dir ?
diana_coman: yes; see folder structure above
diana_coman: ftr it finds the genesis patch fine
diana_coman: but it seems to think there are no descendants on it (so v d mpi-genesis.vpatch returns empty)
BingoBoingo: No pictures of quality this time, but have located mall, mall casino, and place where sleeping
diana_coman: v f shows only the genesis
asciilifeform: diana_coman: are you using mod6's vtron ?
diana_coman: yes,as stated
asciilifeform: pretty strange, mine and phf's vtrons ate it up without complaint, e.g.
diana_coman: ok, let me try with yours too then, can't hurt
asciilifeform: sounds like a bug in mod6's vtron, thus far
asciilifeform: where it silently barfs on a signature and doesn't say why
asciilifeform: where did you get asciilifeform's key, diana_coman ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman possibly you have old ver of alf sig ?
diana_coman: ftr I used mod6's vtron on ch1 of ffa and it worked perfectly fine
mircea_popescu: (expired at some point)
asciilifeform: sigs dun change tho
mircea_popescu: had alt paths there
asciilifeform: diana_coman: then can rule out bad pubk
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, nope, I just downloaded it again today so it's the new one
diana_coman: asciilifeform, got it from your website
asciilifeform: i redownloaded own item just now, and verified the sig successfully
diana_coman: a gpg --verify here worked perfectly fine for me too on both patches
asciilifeform: so it ain't hoster shenanigans, unless quite elaborate and patch-dependent
diana_coman: (did that before even running v anyway)
asciilifeform: fwiw sha512(mpi_second_cut.vpatch) : 594052a750c3ab2ad16bbd73c578df9d99a98cc9811e6537e452dc2386b58c24555918e8d02e9e8d35c25808ac31a10babf0614e2d647afdf4f58b38059af118
asciilifeform: sha512(mpi_second_cut.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig) : 7b14150fd5100dc90f7130a491214fceda5984fdad20491487d45727c4be88885dc9d9245e7f1bee30fa236e1e774e03f6cba8f34ccc4508eaed0df53af329a0
asciilifeform: *path-dependent
diana_coman: anyways, will try with asciilifeform's v for now; maybe mod6 has some idea on this later
diana_coman: asciilifeform, same sha512 here
asciilifeform: hmm possibly mod6's v requires 'vpatch' extension
asciilifeform: my mpi genesis had 'vdiff'
asciilifeform: ( but otherwise conformant )
diana_coman: ah, that might be it, makes sense
asciilifeform: what i did :
asciilifeform: mv patches/mpi-genesis.vdiff patches/mpi-genesis.vpatch ; mv .seals/mpi-genesis.asciilifeform.sig .seals/mpi-genesis.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig
asciilifeform: still fails to recognize that mpi_second_cut.vpatch exists
asciilifeform: this VERY POSSIBILITY of silent failure is a bug, mod6
asciilifeform: at least oughta have a verbose mode one can optionally enable, wtf
asciilifeform: silently ignoring bad input by-default can be permissible, but to do it ~always~ is not The Right Thing , gotta give something to debug with.
asciilifeform: ./ d mpi-genesis.vpatch returns nothing
asciilifeform: and neither does
asciilifeform: ./ a mpi_second_cut.vpatch
asciilifeform: otoh the flow,
asciilifeform: ./ f
asciilifeform: mpi_second_cut.vpatch (asciilifeform)
asciilifeform: mpi-genesis.vpatch (asciilifeform)
asciilifeform: returns both.
asciilifeform: this happens only in mod6's vtron, the bug is replicated by asciilifeform just now ( however yet unexplained. )
asciilifeform: and persists still if the filename is fixed, so it wasn't the cause.
diana_coman: myeah, I had done the renaming
diana_coman: asciilifeform, v99 (taken from here: ) complains that "No roots found!" -> what am I missing?
diana_coman: and I ran it : v99 --wot .wot --seals .seals patches a mpi_second_cut.vpatch
asciilifeform: ok now ~that~ is odd
asciilifeform: diana_coman: do me a favour, tar up the entire thing
asciilifeform: vtron, patches, seals, all.
asciilifeform: i unfortunately will not be able to touch this in next few hrs.
asciilifeform: but will before nightfall.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, encrypted .tar.gz of whole dir with everything
asciilifeform: ty diana_coman , i'ma check it out as soon as hands free
diana_coman: thank you
asciilifeform: diana_coman: post plaintext one, possibly ben_vulpes or mod6 or someone else, will notice what is the cause before i do
asciilifeform knee deep in saecular liquishit atm
asciilifeform: thx diana_coman
asciilifeform: now i recall also that phf had some trouble at first eating the thing, and elsewhere. but i can't seem to find in the log whether he ever said what the problem was, and how fixed.
a111: Logged on 2017-11-15 18:23 mircea_popescu: maybe his thing didn't eat it for some reason.
mod6: hi, looks like you've had some issues with my v : asciilifeform & diana_coman, I'll have to take a look at this later when I can. thx.
phf: asciilifeform: i had issues specifically with an older, genesis-less version. my system doesn't require antecedents to be there, but for some reason when there's only one, antecedent-less patch it gives me a 404. i've not actually investigated, since you produced a genesis since
asciilifeform: genesis was posted from the day my article was written, phf
asciilifeform: it is in the tarball
asciilifeform: ( supposing this makes a difference )
asciilifeform: or, to be absolutely pedantically correct, it was posted when the article first written, whereas 'second cut' was added later.
phf: asciilifeform: something like that. my btcbase vpatch grepper is dumb (it's my own eyes, but not the brain) and it's mostly just looking for things that look like a vpatch/vdiff. i definitely didn't unpack the first post tgz
asciilifeform: makes sense
asciilifeform: since that item i've avoided stuffing'em into tarballs, it doesn't help but often trips up various automated items like phf's
trinque: << I saw, first reaction was "AH SHIT, WHY IS THE BALANCE OFF"
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 14:10 mircea_popescu: << pretty sure i "accidentally"-ed a hundy or so at some point, look carefully through the couch cushions.
asciilifeform: let plain text, stay plaintxt
trinque: notbad cushion money
asciilifeform: i considered to ask 'a hundy of what' but decided not to
mod6: where is the de-facto mpi tarball?
mod6: thx
mod6: are we trying to get this one going then?
asciilifeform: i prolly oughta remove that link
asciilifeform: it contains simply a press
mod6: it sounds to me like diana_coman was using that one.
diana_coman: mod6, no
mod6: 'sane-mpi'
asciilifeform: ( at the time i was not yet ready to say properly fuckyou to my heathen readers, who had nfi what is v and did not want to )
diana_coman: yes but the vpatch, not the press itself
asciilifeform: i think diana_coman has the actual vpatch
asciilifeform: from the genesis tar
diana_coman: mod6, this is what I have and on which it failed:
diana_coman: basically this "sane-mpi" tar.gz:
asciilifeform: oooh aaaah
asciilifeform: looks like i found the boojum
asciilifeform: this was one of those pieces i cooked using obsolete vdiff
asciilifeform: that included timestamps
asciilifeform: the genesis, that is
mod6: aha
mod6: that'll do it
asciilifeform: the secondcut was proper.
mod6 looks
asciilifeform: who wants to recommend The Right Thing for an item like this ?
asciilifeform: i can sign a vpatch of ~the genesis~ per se
asciilifeform: or alternatively sign a cleaned genesis
asciilifeform: but would rather preserve the chronology.
asciilifeform: hey mircea_popescu do you wanna make the call ?
mircea_popescu: sign a new genesis, abandon this one.
asciilifeform: fwiw the secondcut requires no change
asciilifeform: the file hashes from the fixed genesis will be same.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform just as soon as someone puts a patch on top of it, the trees will diverge and then phf can exclude the legacy one or w/e it is he does to them
asciilifeform: they won't diverge though
mircea_popescu: oh, it's a clerical problem only ?
asciilifeform: think about it. aha.
asciilifeform: it's a straight formattingbug.
mircea_popescu: so then why doesn't it press ? there's something amiss here.
asciilifeform: it doesn't press because vtron chokes on the timestamps.
asciilifeform: they should not be in the hashlines.
BingoBoingo opting out of major decisions until getting in a full sleep in. But, Haz uruguayan numero de telefono
mircea_popescu: so then why is it on eg phf's site
asciilifeform: ( they however were in there, in asciilifeform's ~original~ vtron . and vdiff . )
mircea_popescu: im guessing we're just about ready to tighten format here
asciilifeform: phf's vtron apparently is clever, and able to eat both types.
mircea_popescu: SOFT FORK!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the crapola was formally abolished in v proper.
asciilifeform: phf's is 'too liberal'.
mircea_popescu: aite then.
asciilifeform: mod6's is actually correct, though i'd prefer it barf loudly and with pomp, rather than silently.
mircea_popescu: aaanyway, suppose diana_coman wants to add a patch to mod6's vtron, to better error messages
mircea_popescu: (because complaining of absent-present file is no good)
mircea_popescu: WHERE does she put it ?
mircea_popescu: mod6 wanna genesis your vtron ?
asciilifeform: i tried it with diana_coman's copy of asciilifeform's last vtron, and it has correct barfola
asciilifeform: says 'are you sure this is a vpatch'
asciilifeform: which immediately took me to the culprit
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and how about you./
asciilifeform: pretty sure i did ?
mircea_popescu: i dun see it in btcbase
asciilifeform: having to comb l0gz to find these, is becoming painful. any chance of deedbot learning to eat vpatches+sigs, trinque ?
mircea_popescu: atm there's bot, lam-par (terrible name), fg, mpi and ffa.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol i'm all ears if you have better name for lam-par
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why deedbot ? should be a111.
asciilifeform: traditionally deedbot is the one who eats signed matter
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform : "Lamport Parachute (a crypto identity bootstrap solution)"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you misunderstand teh tradition!
mircea_popescu: !#s ".sig"
mircea_popescu: !#s ".patch"
a111: 111 results for "\".patch\"",
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform phf pluriously said he's doing it by hand for now ; i see no problem with this. correct procedure would thereby be to ping him with items
asciilifeform: ^ mod6 , diana_coman , mircea_popescu , phf , et al
asciilifeform: clean ( in terms of not actually having any effect on pressed hashes and the descendant patch 'second cut' ) fix.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: plox to verify that this worx as described above, when you get a chance.
asciilifeform: i tested with my vtron, as pictured in diana_coman's tarball, and it worx.
asciilifeform: fwiw asciilifeform has purged afaik all copies of old-style from his boxen, so this headache should not recur.
asciilifeform: i recommend other folx to look at their vdiff, and see that it does not suffer from timestampism.
asciilifeform: ( pretty sure asciilifeform is not the only one who has committed this sin. )
asciilifeform: phf: if you had some code in your patch viewer to eat this type of horror, as 'special case', it is now a good time to throw it out
asciilifeform: afaik i dun have any other unfixed vpatches.
asciilifeform: ( aside from some obsolete matter on trb ml )
trinque: << don't want to step on phf's toes here; he's operating the logger and v-patch viewer
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 19:48 asciilifeform: having to comb l0gz to find these, is becoming painful. any chance of deedbot learning to eat vpatches+sigs, trinque ?
asciilifeform: let me also demonstrate for the record:
asciilifeform: grep "+++" mpi-genesis.vdiff | cut -f5 -d' ' | sort > sad.txt
asciilifeform: grep "+++" mpi-genesis.vpatch | cut -f3 -d' ' | sort > happy.txt
asciilifeform: diff sad.txt happy.txt
asciilifeform: ( one is, if it isn't clear, the 2015 sad genesis; the other -- the fixed, in . )
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 19:59 asciilifeform: >> << updated
asciilifeform: ^^^ mod6 , diana_coman , mircea_popescu , phf , et al ^^^
mircea_popescu: ok ok simmar down
asciilifeform: the issue is as fixed as it gets. i posted the grep item as example of how to verify, without even a vtron, that nothing has been slipped in from under the table.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, thank you, I'll look in a minute; (had all hands full a minute here with all sorts)
asciilifeform: ( a working vtron will immediately barf if encountering a file mismatching the claimed hash )
mod6: alright, im about to check your new ones here. i can confirm that the original 'mpi-genesis.vpatch' (f254bedf1e3241eb9de17232b630a0614f1cc54ff9c5407d87d79174e211833bcfc0135c89b4abcab2446acd93137a8e1b0798704ad7e4d498cc52c836c82c2b) gets dropped on the floor because of the addtional timestamps.
diana_coman: I can confirm that the new genesis & the old second_cut vpatch are now at least recognised by mod6's v
diana_coman: asciilifeform, did you take out the second_cut patch link from the updated ? or am I just not seeing it/not getting something?
asciilifeform goes to see
mod6: now, on the other hand, yeah, i saw the second_cut vpatch link removed from loper... but I went ahead and updated my sandbox to have alf's latest & greatest mpi-genesis.
mod6: when i went to press, bzzzt.
mod6: looks like second_cut might need a re-grind.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: fixed
asciilifeform: mod6: show me the eggog ?
diana_coman: asciilifeform, here it seems to barf on the ...README file?
asciilifeform: paste ?
asciilifeform: considering that i made the new genesis by pressing and re-vdiffing, there should be no differences aside from the timestamp cut.
diana_coman: 2 out of 5 hunks FAILED -- saving rejects to file mpi/README.rej and contents of README.rej are here:
mod6: yup, unhappy with README
diana_coman: aha, seems to be same here, confirmed
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mod6 that text only appears in 'second cut'
asciilifeform: not in genesis
asciilifeform: it does not appear in either the original genesis, nor the regrind, see for yourself.
asciilifeform: ( i.e. the text in 'UPDATE #1' )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, there is something I don't understand: shouldn't I be able to press the second cut now with the new genesis present?
diana_coman: so then : I try to press and I get...that
diana_coman: is there now a problem with second_cut?
diana_coman goes to take it again
asciilifeform: whereas i just now 'pressed' the old and the new genesis with plain old patch -p1 < old and patch -p1 < new
asciilifeform: and diffed the READMEs
asciilifeform: and they are bitwise identical
asciilifeform: just as they ought to be
asciilifeform: and so is the rest of it!
diana_coman: uhm, something is weird
mircea_popescu admires how the "finished" mpi managed to take a whole day of 3 people's time and shakes his head displeasedly.
mircea_popescu: this can't be what finished ever means.
asciilifeform: what means 'finished', it's a spoil of war artifact.
asciilifeform: ( and fwiw phf pressed and built the demo year+ ago )
asciilifeform: diana_coman, mod6 , both of you appear to be suffering from mod6's barfolade-leaving vtron
asciilifeform: it stops mid-press and leaves liquishit
asciilifeform: which it itself afterwards fails on
asciilifeform: make a fresh working set, with no failed-press residue, and you will get a working press.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, this was FRESH
asciilifeform: plox to tar it up and post ?
diana_coman: wiped previous dir, took everything out with curl etc
asciilifeform: whole thing, as before.
asciilifeform brb, teatime.
diana_coman: I'll wipe again and try your v too for completeness at least
mod6: <+asciilifeform> diana_coman, mod6 , both of you appear to be suffering from mod6's barfolade-leaving vtron << wut
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 wanna genesis your vtron ? << at this rate, doesn't look like it.
mod6: Despite 2 years of development, we still arn't there yet.
trinque: genesis doesn't have to mean perfect.
mod6: I had started a new V in Ada, had to stick it in the drawer for a while. Not getting to exactly where I wanted to go (easy to read, fits in head, no perl/perlisms) with it at this time.
trinque: nobody's going to come for you with pitchforks
mod6: Anyway, the hope was that it would replace my other PoC.
trinque: ircbot's genesis features me writing CLOS like it's Java classes.
mod6: <+mod6> <+asciilifeform> diana_coman, mod6 , both of you appear to be suffering from mod6's barfolade-leaving vtron << wut << my V pukes exactly when it can.
mod6: during the press process, it finds that shas do not match the expected, and DIES.
trinque: will at some point release vpatches with sane method names. but thing works, and I'm not going to obscure history because I knew less in the past.
mod6: it can't check the expected sha of a patch BEFORE its DONE patching.
mod6: s/patch/patched file/
asciilifeform: now where's that tarball
mod6: which
asciilifeform: either diana_coman's or mod6's barfamatic set
asciilifeform: at this point i'm quite curious re what gives
mod6: everytime we have this problem (note it's not the first) where we have someones vpatch with garbage in it....
mod6: then it gets re-generated
mod6: then we have to regrind stuff.
mod6: goto regrind;
asciilifeform: mod6: in this case asciilifeform is quite puzzled why it appears to need a regrind; none of the file hashes should have changed
asciilifeform: ( patches themselves are never hashed , aside from by gpg when verifying sig )
asciilifeform: confirmed barf on readme
asciilifeform: now trying to find why !
asciilifeform: ( the two README are bitwise-identical )
mod6: ok. i'll see what i can dig up
diana_coman: asciilifeform, mk, so no need for the tar I gather since you can easily reproduce it anyway
asciilifeform: ok this is pretty sad
asciilifeform: how come nobody bothered to look at second_cut with naked eye ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> what means 'finished', it's a spoil of war artifact. << that's entirely not related to the discussion.
asciilifeform: phf how the hell did this get eaten by your vtron
asciilifeform: the second_cut on my www -- is not a proper patch at all
asciilifeform: but a genesis . all of the antecedents are 'false'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's the smaller problem.
mircea_popescu: the larger problem is that to arrive to this conclusion, you first bitched at everyone else.
asciilifeform: the bigger problem is that nobody noticed.
mircea_popescu: now stop doing this inane shit, it's a significant drag on resources.
mod6: fwiw, i've never even looked at this!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 9 of 10 occasions it is somebody else's bug!1
mircea_popescu: 2 of 2 here.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at any rate, mod6 is right , i'ma have to regrind the 2nd patch. and also stuck , deservedly, with the chore of demonstrating that the payloads are unaltered.
asciilifeform: serves me right.
mircea_popescu: observe that after bitching about the quality of work in empire, along the lines of "everything works for as long as you don't use it", our pile of stuff exhibits the same exact property.
asciilifeform: if not tried -- wrong to say that it worx.
asciilifeform: 'schrodinger's worx'
asciilifeform: now i'ma go and get the mop, pick up the liquishit, brb.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-05 17:47 asciilifeform: ( lessee if i properly ate & shat, 'i do not consider myself a programmer, for i have another craft. let's say i am an amateur programmer. and yet though i am an amateur, i find myself having written tens of thou. of loc in this-here life. and at least a min of 10k loc for web. but wanna hear sumthing ? never have i created a security hole in any. never. do you suppose i simply had good luck ? possibly luck. or possibly i wrote the c
mod6: I should have examined/tested your mpi vpatches, alf. I'll continue to try to be a second pair of eyes, reading them. There's no substitute for reading. For those following along, take note.
asciilifeform: and i oughta properly read yer vtron, mod6 .
mod6: Cheers!
mod6: Additionally, if someone in the republic wishes to create a vpatch/genesis and have a second pair of eyes look it over, by all means, send it to me.
mod6: I'll do what I can to vet it.
trinque respectfully points out that at least by his eyes, V forces personal responsibility, not a pretense to being immaculately conceived.
mod6: indeed.
mod6: never hurts to have someone measure for the n'th time for you before you cut, however.
trinque: no argument here.
asciilifeform: this is not the 1st time i plugged a finger into 220v. the breaker, i will however point out -- worked
asciilifeform: now to see which finger...
mod6: <+trinque> genesis doesn't have to mean perfect. <+trinque> nobody's going to come for you with pitchforks << no one expects a spanish something or other either...
trinque: loller
mod6: but furthermore, i tend to agree. if i thought that my V would stay in perl forever, i'd probably already have created the genesis. however, i'd like to see if I can get the Ada version off the ground.
asciilifeform: ok this is pretty strange:
asciilifeform: i broke 'second cut' into patchons, and found :
trinque: mod6: makes sense, not vpatching a prototype
mod6: because what i don't want to do is have a perl genesis, then some vpatch that deletes everything and inflates a bunch of ada stuffs. prolly be better to start in the lang you expect to say within for the lifetime of the application.
asciilifeform: or hm nm
mircea_popescu: mod6 it's not a crime to have a perl vtron. however, if you plan as your own strategy to move away from perl and you're judging it more of a liability than anything, then by all means, eschew.
mircea_popescu: original mod6 perl vtron was important prototype in the early life of v, made all sorts of latter things possible. exactly like original bitcoin. nobody said you have to marry it now though ; or divorce it for that matter.
mod6: It /is/ a bit worrysome that I believe that I'm the only person who knows how it works. And since it's the only version in existence that encompasses all of the rules arbitrated in our chamber, that a new version that is easier to understand is warranted.
mircea_popescu: what language(s) you work in is your own, entirely personal, choice.
mircea_popescu: i'm not going to pick a wife for you, "here, THIS is the woman you should be comfortable with". pick your own. languages idem.
mod6: :]
mircea_popescu: on a long enough timeframe, there's going to exist a vtron in ~any language anyway, i expect.
asciilifeform: hey folx
mod6: mircea_popescu: that's kinda neat really
mod6: asciilifeform: werd
asciilifeform: i'ma double-chexk this before running mouth...
asciilifeform: because i think i may have found a bug in diff
mod6: :D
asciilifeform: i'ma tar it up and let people replicate
mod6: ok.
mod6: cool
mircea_popescu: inb4 ffa.diff reimpl
mod6: haha
mod6 looks
asciilifeform: there was no mistake in asciilifeform's procedure for baking the item. second_cut is in fact a patch, not a genesis, asciilifeform spoke hastily. there is also no bug in mod6's vtron, or in asciilifeform's. diana_coman did not make a mistake.
asciilifeform: i will not spoil the surprise , folx who look in the tarball will see what the caltrop was.
asciilifeform: the sad part is that i have nfi how to cure this , it is a consequence of using unix diff ( with in-band signal ) to begin with.
asciilifeform: ( observe that the sha512 sums of the readme in 'a' and 'b' match the ones given in the vpatch. but unix patch cannot actually make the patch happen. )
mod6: crap, just a sec, haven't even looked yet. bbs.
asciilifeform: i recall a similar boojum in my 1st attempt at the FG release, that time it was a '+++' inside a uuencoded blob
asciilifeform: some texts cannot be (!) vdiffed, for so long as we use unix diff; these appearently include gpg sigs
asciilifeform brb, fresh air
asciilifeform: ( clearsigs, to be exact . )
asciilifeform: *apparently
asciilifeform brb forrealz
mod6: <+asciilifeform> i recall a similar boojum in my 1st attempt at the FG release, that time it was a '+++' inside a uuencoded blob << lol, ok i see the problem too. you're right, this similar thing happened before.
mircea_popescu: lol check it out, diana got split with the bots.
BingoBoingo recalls diff being an issue, forgets the context
mircea_popescu: we'll end up with a s/-/=/ intermediate step or wtf.
mircea_popescu: alternately, of course... "no clearsigned material within patches". this may even be a right thing independently of the actual bug.
mircea_popescu: in that there's no reason to have them, and their presence is in itself sign of babbage's braindamage, much like say a canister for light, or a faucet for patience.
trinque: differently wrong on openbsd patch
trinque: a read of the manfile of linux patch suggests *massive* fuckery to allow idjits to pull patches out of other text, email, newsgroups, etc
BingoBoingo: Well, when discussing trb on Openbsd we are talking something that spans 5.5-ish and ends no later than 6.1
trinque: who was? just trying a patch with bsd stubble vs gnu moss-hair
BingoBoingo: trinque: Their move to clang as default compiler makes pain
mircea_popescu: i suppose the third alternative is to actually implement a proper diff as part of vtron
phf: there's nothing wrong with the diff, asciilifeform is thrashing
phf: if you just run a diff -uNr on the two readmes, the resultant patch works. if you run a diff on the resulting patch and the vpatch in the tar, then you can see that there's something wrong with the vpatch specifically
phf: ------BEGIN PGP false
phf: from readme_only.vpatch
phf: ah, so what's actually broken in this particular case, is the original v implementation
trinque: ah so the vdiff script wrapping diff probably did that?
phf: yeah
trinque: makes total sense
phf: err
phf: so this error wouldn't surface until very last mile, in my case fails to press
phf: [2017-12-06 22:12:39 [ERROR]] removing line [-----BEGIN PGP false] but found [-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----]
asciilifeform: << does not in fact work on my box
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 22:05 phf: if you just run a diff -uNr on the two readmes, the resultant patch works. if you run a diff on the resulting patch and the vpatch in the tar, then you can see that there's something wrong with the vpatch specifically
asciilifeform: i get same result as with mod6's vtron
asciilifeform: << this wouldn't fix the problem, only move it. thinkaboutit. inband signalling sux.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 21:46 mircea_popescu: we'll end up with a s/-/=/ intermediate step or wtf.
a111: Logged on 2017-12-06 22:07 trinque: ah so the vdiff script wrapping diff probably did that?
asciilifeform: !#s +++
phf: asciilifeform: you're misrepresenting the problem
a111: Logged on 2017-01-05 00:43 asciilifeform: incidentally you will blow up on the +++ mine if you try and diff a vdiff.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-11 20:15 asciilifeform: and haha, there are TWO +++ lines !
asciilifeform: phf: hm?
asciilifeform: i'm all ears, phf . but my current understanding is that the problem is in that vdiff cannot eat arbitrary 7bitclean ascii files.
asciilifeform: ( instead it can only eat ones that dun contain '---' and '+++' and possibly other boojums )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform move it where ?
asciilifeform: i'm also allears re: what a Properly Made vdiff oughta do. 'replace with ===' is not an answer, it simply creates a new magic death word, ===.
mircea_popescu: nah. keep the current death word (---) ; replace all conflicts in raw input to ===.
phf: the problem is not diff or diff format, the problem is that vdiff does a naive grep for a prefix and breaks a perfectly valid traditional patch
asciilifeform: this will break code.
asciilifeform: in particular, ada comments.
asciilifeform: a great many of them.
mircea_popescu: yes well. if you use in-band you end up with policed forbidden words.
asciilifeform: phf: this is entirely correct. i dun see how it contradicts what i said however.
phf: well, diff produces enough information for you to not have to do that.
asciilifeform: phf: can you come up with a pill that doesn't break ada comments ?
phf: but it will require either writing a vdiff from scratch, or else adding a better parser to vdiff
asciilifeform: which also are often '[startofline]---'
mircea_popescu: i thought ada comments were --
asciilifeform: and quite often even '[startofline]--- foo'
phf: yes, diff gives you exhaustive details about hunk size
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they gotta ~start~ with --
phf: e.g. @@ -1,6 +1,3 @@
asciilifeform: no other restriction.
asciilifeform: phf: classical v does not touch these or attempt to use'em for anything.
phf: correct
asciilifeform: and i like it that way.
mircea_popescu: moar complicated machinery ;/
phf: _but it will require either writing a vdiff from scratch, or else adding a better parser to vdiff_
asciilifeform: phf mircea_popescu mod6 et al any of you lot want to propose wat-do in this particular case ?
phf: in this case "better parser" is a parser that actually understands the format it's processing
asciilifeform: ( of 'second_cut' )
phf: you can hand produce a second_cut that's not broken by tooling
asciilifeform: in the earlier FG case i 'cheated' by rejecting the use of the uuencoded blogs in the 1st place
asciilifeform: phf: specifically ?
asciilifeform: say how ? to lose the gpg clearsig ?
phf: no.
phf: ffs.
asciilifeform: if i mutilate it, it will no longer verify
phf: you want me to write a second_cut by hand that presses cleanly?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you shouldn't put gpg clearsigned bits in a patch in the first place.
phf: and that doesn't in any way require breaking the files?
mircea_popescu: phf since you're offering...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ideally not. this readme.txt however was made to stand alone, in a blog article, and hence contained clearsig.
mircea_popescu: and a rule whereby ada comments are "-- " not "--" is not the end of the world either.
asciilifeform: i will point out that the mpi genesis was created in oct. of 2015, when v was 2 mo. old.
asciilifeform: i am not adding extraneous rules to ada to satisfy idiotparser.
mircea_popescu: stylistic rules happen all the time. "name variables like this".
mircea_popescu: it's what it is.
mircea_popescu: idiotparser has the extreme advantage of not even being a parser, ie, simplicity.
asciilifeform: this is not a solution.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
trinque: vdiff just needs to match diff chunk header lines better, and fixed.
asciilifeform: phf: i see what you did. but how would you modify vdiff to actually produce this ?
asciilifeform: rather than by hand
asciilifeform: trinque: vdiff is 1line.
asciilifeform: what 1line would you like to replace the old 1line with ?
trinque: a better 1line
trinque: as if that ball of hair is readable
phf: ~vdiff~ is broken. not diff, not lizard hitler, not gnu stack
trinque: but it appears to say anything starting with --- must be diffheaderstuff
asciilifeform: phf is entirely right. it is broken exactly as in the earlier '+++' case
trinque: that's stupid
mircea_popescu: hey! change the grep ? from "---" to "--- " ?
asciilifeform: this will fix this case. but not the general case.
mircea_popescu: and similarily for +++. buys some space.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes.
mircea_popescu: still, ironclad argument that current grep is broken : looks for PART OF the header it should.
mircea_popescu: the correct diff header is "--- " ; not "-" nor "---".
asciilifeform: i'ma upload a signed phf-cured second_cut presently, if no one can think of a reason not to
asciilifeform: ( as seen in above diff )
mircea_popescu: take out the god damned clearsigns.
mircea_popescu: they utterly don't belong there. you got a .sig mechanism for this.
asciilifeform: works also
deedbot: << Trilema - "3 idiots", in preference of saying "Indians are cognitively impaired for reason of genetic inferiority"
asciilifeform: the problem is more or less guaranteed to recur, however, i suspect.
mircea_popescu: vdiff should be fixed to search for the full 4 char header also.
mircea_popescu: and yes the problem will recur.
asciilifeform: i'ma practice test-press prior to publication, from nao on
asciilifeform: unfortunately this is necessary.
mircea_popescu: you WEREN'T ?
asciilifeform: not in oct 2015 !
mircea_popescu: nothing unfortunate about this being necessary.
asciilifeform: btw phf your cure is not curative
asciilifeform: it still barfs on readme (1 chunk, instead of 2)
asciilifeform: i'ma do what mircea_popescu said.
mircea_popescu: i expect his method (add the terminating ---s the thing expects even if spurious) works even if implementation may need work. tho i dun wanna go down this road.
mircea_popescu: incidentally -- which sha512 are we using ? not keccak is it.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 13580.0, vol: 18744.29712103 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 13479.0, vol: 77434.31525352 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 13741.0, vol: 4927.96991047 | Volume-weighted last average: 13510.4945086
asciilifeform: sha512 is the ancient sha512
asciilifeform: long pre-dates invention of keccak .
mircea_popescu: ie sha-2, fips 180-2
asciilifeform: aha, that very same. same work of heathenry as sha256.
asciilifeform: keccak afaik ships with no unix, to this day.
mircea_popescu: if we start fucking with vdiff, this is the first mover.
mircea_popescu: once we have keccak.
asciilifeform: i'd quite like to see this.
mircea_popescu: item scheduled for eucrypt lib so keep watch of diana_coman 's blog. can be just taken from there put here.
mircea_popescu: if anyone seriously considers re-writing venerable diff/patch into v-dp
asciilifeform: ok here goes:
asciilifeform: genesis and second_cut, patches and sigs, replaced with fixed versions per mircea_popescu's methid;
asciilifeform: *method
asciilifeform: others are invited to verify that no other changes were made.
asciilifeform: and that the corrected set of patches, presses.
asciilifeform: to to diana_coman , mod6 , mircea_popescu , phf , for their sweat .
asciilifeform: corrected items ( and their seals ) are live at same place, .
asciilifeform: fa32a27b8ac0753d6052abd37f56df545490315c3019ab0c9e695543f1f14b6bf70aba29a88982eea82a1e8c4a112e6cb9d4e4553062a977bb0bac38ddd91981 mpi-genesis.vpatch
asciilifeform: fba9ea0ece4c138f9510f20a91942dde57ca2273da2ee776004dc2404dbdf815283b05aa2487689c13043882ce65a09a2a9ef33bde444b4a9fedc5971fdf8a3a mpi_second_cut.vpatch
asciilifeform: b05ca401ecfe3f5bfa8794377241db12f5dc302fc552075ab3c78e7379b5b6a838af6d37d725798556cb27bc57213c388c92fa9b06f2e9233264b3ea8f89824f mpi-genesis.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig
asciilifeform: cab965c726b50f98e3d74a1be4b119dcf65c9900749d33707525c94c1432b855f2e3d39043a4fbb9d907fe3853242fccd773017a2d3763bdd76fbc9a6f6a01dd mpi_second_cut.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig
asciilifeform: apologies for log clutter.
mircea_popescu: ya srsly.
asciilifeform: pretty sure this is all, tho.
diana_coman: I can confirm this version presses with mod6's vtron
asciilifeform: interestingly , this item was the 2nd thing asciilifeform ever genesised ( ) . 1st was trb.
asciilifeform: the genesis contained the clearsig. this did not choke vdiff, it ended up on the right side of a genuine +++ , there was no symptom of problem.
asciilifeform: the second_cut however did not contain the clearsig. this -- set the trap.
mircea_popescu: yes, perfect properties to make a subtle bug
diana_coman: I can also confirm that it presses with asciilifeform's v and moreover that the 2 results are - as expected - same
asciilifeform: should be same other than for the readme, aha.
asciilifeform: diana_coman and anyone else who builds, tests, studies this item, is invited to sign.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, will do
asciilifeform: same goes for ch1 of ffa, incidentally.
diana_coman: good point there, huh
asciilifeform: anyone who considers self a 'graduate' of ch1, i.e. having loaded it Into Head, is invited to sign the genesis.
asciilifeform: i will host the seals.
asciilifeform: ( and phf prolly also, he has a convenient place for this )
mircea_popescu: this is actually a great fucking article!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: perhaps deserves a sequel ?
mircea_popescu: i think so.
mircea_popescu: and in other "omg i can't believe this still exists",
mod6: asciilifeform: I can confirm that your new patches & sigs (posted above) at least ~press~ happily:
mod6: <+diana_coman> I can confirm this version presses with mod6's vtron << thanks for checking this out too!
asciilifeform: neato. ty mod6 .
mod6: np o7
asciilifeform: lol mircea_popescu : asciilifeform habitually read the chix, ~decade ago
asciilifeform: had nfi it were still around somewhere.
mircea_popescu: was one of the maybe i dunno, 6 ? 10 ? bloggers worth the mention.
mircea_popescu: "sweetney" (period idiot) meanwhile morphed into tracey gaughran, for instance. lives in baltimore, is a "digital content and strategy" aka
mircea_popescu: << remember like ... 5 years ago, when people still could emit readable text ?
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