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BingoBoingo: !!up oroborous
deedbot: oroborous voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo anyway, why is the idea WH was supporting strange ? didn't like, trump beleete his support tweets and errythang ? << http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/09/27/trump-teaches-gop-senators-importance-of-selling-by-example-learns-limits-of-his-brand/
ben_vulpes: > Roy Moore was further endorsed by President Trump announced his intention to enthusiastically campaign for Moore in the event Moore came out on top in the runoff. << there is something missing in this sentence, between President Trump and announced, i think.
mats: https://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-17-548 on the laughable un-readiness of USN
ben_vulpes: just the usn, eh? did we do the most recent los alamos fuckups?
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: ty fxd
ben_vulpes: > Similarly, a Navy analysis shows that the average age of shipyard capital equipment now exceeds its expected useful life.
ben_vulpes: while i am definitely guilty of eking a half-decade out of a lathe with judicious application of idle six-axis arms found elsewhere in the facility, i don't think even the screw machine squad's hardware was mostly within expected lifespans.
ben_vulpes: i think they *were* i mean
BingoBoingo: Breaking: Hugh Hefner dead at 91
oroborous: BingoBoingo: so young...
BingoBoingo: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=9009 << Lafond entangled in the legal system JURY DUTY: "I actually told the judge and attorneys about hacking a dude up with a sword and getting off and they selected me as the seventh pick."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-28#1717973 << bwhaha! dja know this was NOT actually true for the soviets at any point ?
a111: Logged on 2017-09-28 04:45 ben_vulpes: > Similarly, a Navy analysis shows that the average age of shipyard capital equipment now exceeds its expected useful life.
ben_vulpes: i am not particularly surprised, no
mircea_popescu: harvard eh.
mircea_popescu: so which hits 0.05 first, ethereum or crash ?
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4233.14, vol: 14956.76937157 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4235.5, vol: 54947.34789074 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4153.430699, vol: 604.10700000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4240.3, vol: 7377.56780422 | Volume-weighted last average: 4234.86491254
BingoBoingo: I'd suspect etherhufferium, Chicoms seem to have more juice to throw at crash
a111: Logged on 2016-06-06 21:10 mircea_popescu: o btw asciilifeform wanna hear my inept symmetric encryption scheme ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes yeah, not bad. i still hold that's the ~only avenue to the problem.
mircea_popescu: not necessarily the specific example. but yes, symmetric cipher always reduces to a "parametrized otp".
mircea_popescu: best do it upfront than fucking your own ass with boxes and bs.
shinohai: *05:48:42 <-- mac_____ (rm@goat.sex) has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
BingoBoingo: lol-bus
asciilifeform: in other lulzies, https://archive.is/ImVWv >> 'An electronic market maker is suing Quoine, one of the world’s major bitcoin exchange operators, over trades that were allegedly wrongfully reversed... series of trades on April 19, resulting in B2C2 paying 309.2518 ethereum for 3092.517116 bitcoin.... But the next day, the trades were reversed by Quoine... Quoine told B2C2 that it was entitled to do so because the trades were “mostl
asciilifeform: y trades with huge mark-up over fair global market price”, the suit said.'
asciilifeform: 'Quoine in turn claims that B2C2 is “being opportunistic and seeking to profit from a technical glitch” It said the trades were “inadvertently” executed at the “abnormal rate of... 10 bitcoins for one ethereum, which was approximately 125 times higher than the actual market price of ethereum on April 19” because of a technical glitch.'
asciilifeform: 'It said the glitch arose because it was reconfiguring passwords for its critical systems to fend off persistent attempts by hackers to break into its systems.'
asciilifeform: such cosmic ray.
asciilifeform: usg.ethertardium pumpatron subcontractor caught red-handed by a sharp http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-27#1717884 , and tries to weasel out, 'unhappen' the resulting rape.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-27 20:31 mircea_popescu: "your honor, i'm smarter than the inca, natch" ?
asciilifeform: 'Given the “stark difference between the abnormal rate and the actual market prices of bitcoin and ethereum on April 19”, B2C2, which Quoine called a “sophisticated” investor with experience trading virtual currencies, should have suspected the “abnormal rate” was a mistake. '
asciilifeform: get this, 'they should have known' that it was a usg wash trade to pump ethertadrium price, and simply sat there, not, horror, matching it
a111: Logged on 2017-09-28 09:39 mircea_popescu: not necessarily the specific example. but yes, symmetric cipher always reduces to a "parametrized otp".
a111: Logged on 2017-09-20 19:28 asciilifeform: incidentally iirc we did the proof of 'if there is a good hash, there is a good blockcipher, and vice-versa'
asciilifeform: and trivially is same as 'good prng'.
asciilifeform: none of these items -- exist; nor is anything resembling an approach to them, known.
asciilifeform: indices into pi, e, sqrt(2), whichever, are just the same obscurantist voodoo as any other approach.
asciilifeform: ( and it is entirely conceivable that some variation on the theme of bbp's function will give you a fast search for 'where in pi might this fuzzy match be' and the like )
asciilifeform: the fundamental boojum preventing anything like a rationally designed blockcipher-hash-prng , is that we do not actually have a theory of average-case problem hardness.
asciilifeform: as discussed in 2016.
asciilifeform: any attempt at proceeding in the absence of said theory, is guaranteed to give you a 'it seemed clever and unbreakable to ME!' idiocy, a la aes et al.
asciilifeform: and, though it may pattern-match http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1699167 -- it's still tru. and you can take it to the bank.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 18:33 mircea_popescu: the way this conversation is going, we can't have children us two until we get the baby room properly furnished and the safest crypto op is one that never finishes.
asciilifeform: which is why i favour using rsa in place of blockcipher-hash-prng, painfully. the actual averagecase hardness of rsa is unknown and will probably remain unknown. but at least when you use ~solely~ rsa, you avoid introducing ANOTHER unknown.
asciilifeform: now you stand and fall strictly by rsa. P(rsabreak) is <= P(rsabreak AND whateverfucktardationyouusedforablockcipherbreak) , in all cases.
asciilifeform: OR , lol
asciilifeform: now you stand and fall strictly by rsa. P(rsabreak) is <= P(rsabreak OR whateverfucktardationyouusedforablockcipherbreak) , in all cases.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-02 18:09 asciilifeform: ok i cannot resist answering ben_vulpes . because he will find answer in encyclopaedia, but it will not be an actual answer, but only a thought-extinguisher.
cruciform: so, the logs suggest that my 2048bit RSA key is too short - how do I register a longer one with deedbot?
asciilifeform: cruciform: it's a manual process, you gotta talk to trinque
trinque: there's no automatic way to change your key. sign a full export of a new public key with an old one and I'll make the change.
cruciform: trinque: thanks; sorry for the bother
trinque: well, if you're going to go to this trouble, consider a few other things.
trinque: you generated this key on windows, right?
cruciform: nah, Ubuntu
trinque: k, I guess that was the last one
BingoBoingo: So you have two things to fix!
ben_vulpes: cruciform: gpg keys of greater than 2048 bits expose you to retardation in gpg as well
ben_vulpes: trying to find this thread and failing
asciilifeform: !#s gpg rng
ben_vulpes: aha ty asciilifeform
a111: Logged on 2016-08-17 21:26 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu https://lists.gnupg.org/pipermail/gnupg-announce/2016q3/000395.html << lel
cruciform: ben_vulpes: thanks for the links
BingoBoingo: "That's exactly the problem. Yesterday I ate a most delicious desert out of my slavegirl's own ass, directly. This dream of many previous sultans and whatnots that nevertheless couldn't ever be fulfilled effortlessly came through, for me. I didn't even much care for it either way," << TMSR problems
asciilifeform: aaaaaaaaaaand crate #3 is here.
ben_vulpes: what are these mysterycrates, asciilifeform ?!
asciilifeform: will announce eventually.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4179.0, vol: 11699.73021104 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4180.0, vol: 44660.80177372 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4157.768499, vol: 458.77780000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4174.9, vol: 7196.05097395 | Volume-weighted last average: 4179.08461175
asciilifeform: ohai mircea_popescu
mod6: evenin'
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-28#1718006 << pretty lulzy. "sophisticated" has become this actual legal term in the us, meaning approximately "here's what obligations we arbitrarily foist on the other party for our own self serving reasons"
a111: Logged on 2017-09-28 14:53 asciilifeform: 'Given the “stark difference between the abnormal rate and the actual market prices of bitcoin and ethereum on April 19”, B2C2, which Quoine called a “sophisticated” investor with experience trading virtual currencies, should have suspected the “abnormal rate” was a mistake. '
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-28#1718014 << this conceivable is of the same nature of conception as "wilkes proved there's no elliptic curves without modular forms, therefore we can use ecc instead of rsa"
a111: Logged on 2017-09-28 15:00 asciilifeform: ( and it is entirely conceivable that some variation on the theme of bbp's function will give you a fast search for 'where in pi might this fuzzy match be' and the like )
asciilifeform: not so : bbp-like construction makes for inexpensive ~rewind~ when walking the digits, whereas hashes at least try to make it painful
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-28#1718015 << minimum case. the average case is of relatively little interest here. what interests is hardest case, to design solutions for problems (what is currently 100% of all theoretic work done), and minimum case, to guarantee hardness, which is 0% of work done and 100% of republican interest.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-28 15:09 asciilifeform: the fundamental boojum preventing anything like a rationally designed blockcipher-hash-prng , is that we do not actually have a theory of average-case problem hardness.
mircea_popescu: average case has no value for this later branch ; has some limited value for the former branch, to see how "eccentric" the upper bound is.
asciilifeform: oh ffs why we gotta have same thread twice. minimal case is ALWAYS O(1) , it consists of... knowing the answer ahead of time
asciilifeform: i.e. having the key
mircea_popescu: not trivial.
asciilifeform: the concept of 'minimal case for someone who doesn't know the key' is not meaningfully distinct from 'average case'
mircea_popescu: we're not discussing that nonsense. we're discussing the actual blind case.
asciilifeform: demonstrate the distinction ?
mircea_popescu: suppose there's a function that does hashing over a domain consisting of 2^100 possible distinct values.
asciilifeform supposes
mircea_popescu: consider the work required to reverse it has been calculated for each value, and is in the domain [a, b].
mircea_popescu: the point of interest for the "max case" is b. the point of interest to us is a. the "average case" is either a+b/2 or else ni * weight i / sum i.
mircea_popescu: trivially the average, weighted or not, will be inside the domain and not the lower bound of the domain.
asciilifeform: i get this, this isn't the problem. problem is the dismissal of the knowing-the-answer degenerate case
mircea_popescu: what interests me, when you say "alfhash is 5 trillion hours strong" is that ANY VALUE i pass into alfhash will be reversed in NO LESS than 5 trillion hours.
mircea_popescu: i don't care that "on average it's 5 trillion but for the value you chose it's two weeks"
asciilifeform: i get this. and would like one of these. but strongly suspect that it is a provably square circle.
mircea_popescu: until proven i ask for it.
asciilifeform: i've been asking for it since we 1st had the thread, lol
mircea_popescu: lol. now, let's model the other thing.
mircea_popescu: the correct measurement of hash strength includes two parties, defined as : party A, which knows the plaintext and computes the hash ; and party B, which does not know the plaintext and computes it on the basis of nothing but the hash.
mircea_popescu: a modelling in which b knows the plaintext breaks this definition, and it is therefore not interesting.
asciilifeform: incidentally i just realized that von neumann had this thread. and modelled the item in shannon's terms : he asked that the ciphertext contain 0 bits of info re the plaintext. and proved that this is true if and only if you're using... otp
mircea_popescu: in the common understanding of "hash is hard", what is said is "B can not make any grounded promise that his effort will require less than X work for an arbitrary item chosen by A"
asciilifeform: but as i understand we asked for a squarer even circle : that 'CAN make grounded promise that effort will require AT LEAST x'
mircea_popescu: whereas in the correct, crypto-relevant understanding of "hash is hard", what is said is "B can make grounded promise that his effort will require at least X work"
mircea_popescu: "for as long as the plaintext went through alfhash, it is known as a mathematical fact, irrespecvtive of any considerations, that so many steps must be undertaken to undo it"
mircea_popescu: (this being something i suspect mpfhf fambly MAY be amenable to proving, but i've yet to get anywhere)
asciilifeform: the thing is, 'knows answer ahead of time' is not an all-or-nothing. in any non-otp ( i.e. 1:1 mapping of plaintxt to ciphertxt ) there is nonzero bittage of info in ciphertext, of plaintext
mircea_popescu: this is not evidently true.
asciilifeform: von neumann proved it
mircea_popescu: for instance, the dillutionists propose a similar view of solutions.
mircea_popescu: "in any amount of water there's some nonzero information as to the original solutes"
asciilifeform: if atom did not exist, this would be true
mircea_popescu: how do you know, though.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, there's a difference between "it in principle exists" and anything useful.
asciilifeform: that's the subject of inquiry, neh
asciilifeform: until you have a proof, a hash, cipher, etc. is 'strong until it ain't'
mircea_popescu: i suppose to get fancy we're inquiring whether information is quantified. fine.
asciilifeform: fortunately shannon did this already
asciilifeform: as for the subj of thread, it would also seem to asciilifeform that it in fact reduces to the P =?= NP megapuzzler.
asciilifeform: or rather, requires a proof that P!=NP...
mircea_popescu: in any case, the former statement is an exercise in psychotic nonsense. how the fuck can you demand someone NOT be able to whatever.
mircea_popescu: the evidently philosophically correct formulation is the second, being positive not negative.
asciilifeform: ( iirc last time we had the thread, mircea_popescu dug up a few even-moar-painful complexity classes, to place the dragon into. and asciilifeform had to point out that THEIR disjointness from P is equally unproven )
mircea_popescu: actually i recall at some point bring well known super -NP, proven as such, classes.
mircea_popescu: including the algebraic indices problem etc.
asciilifeform: note that, e.g., game of go, is exptime-complete but turns out that good algo exists. complexity class as we have it is a broken concept, which was asciilifeform's argument to start
a111: Logged on 2017-09-28 18:29 BingoBoingo: "That's exactly the problem. Yesterday I ate a most delicious desert out of my slavegirl's own ass, directly. This dream of many previous sultans and whatnots that nevertheless couldn't ever be fulfilled effortlessly came through, for me. I didn't even much care for it either way," << TMSR problems
mircea_popescu: a...ficcionados (lol) can readily resolve the problem though : douche the girl, then anally feed her a banana for buffer, then load her up in whatever flavour you favour and then proceed to dinner.
mircea_popescu: careful when it starts getting banana-y.
asciilifeform: bbbut howmanydilutions!111
mircea_popescu: you mean ablutions.
asciilifeform: bananutions
mircea_popescu: depends. trained ass needs 2. noob ass, 3+.
mircea_popescu: one of the most fascinating things about anal perversity is that the colon seems particularily eager to enter dual use regime.
mircea_popescu: all the people going "oh, it's against nature" have NO FUCKING IDEA whatsoever as to nature.
asciilifeform: i suppose holding a knife between yer teeth, or a flute, etc is also 'against nature' lol
mircea_popescu: conceivably.
mircea_popescu: pattern matches, at the least.
mircea_popescu: but speech is certainly a perversion, so this argument is hard to bring.
asciilifeform: and if you lick a 9v cell your tongue dereferences a null ptr and falls off, neh
asciilifeform: picture if these imbeciles designed a body for some creature.
asciilifeform: 'oh but Who Could Have Foreseen!'
mircea_popescu: you familiar with the platonic alt-theories ?
mircea_popescu: body parts seeping from the ground in a swamp and such ?
asciilifeform: aha, it never really made sense
mircea_popescu: there's a pretty decent pile of lulz.
asciilifeform: re hashes, an old article of possible interest , https://arxiv.org/abs/cs/0012023
asciilifeform: ^ offers a solution to the megapuzzler, but takes 'complexity classes ARE disjoint' as a lemma.
asciilifeform: ( as conjecture, rather )
asciilifeform: afaik that piece remains 'the last word' on the subj, from the maths folx.
asciilifeform: ( the flimflam artists who call themselves 'cryptographers' studiously avoid the subject, and will recoil in horror -- guaranteed, try it yerself -- when confronted. )
mircea_popescu: so what good is it ?
asciilifeform: i highly recommend reading.
mircea_popescu: no i mean the result. "if the classes are separate". well...
mircea_popescu is pretty sure read this sometime past years.
asciilifeform: sane discussion of the question, followed by an answer you can go with ( because if it turns out that oneway functions do NOT exist, all crypto other than otp is worthless )
asciilifeform: quite possibly mircea_popescu read it at some point. but did not yet have the correct itch, to appreciate.
mircea_popescu: i am unpersuaded.
mircea_popescu: the whole zfc is still in doubt, for instance.
mircea_popescu: heck, i recently linked to some lulz discussing that. recall cads and his fabled gf ?
asciilifeform: the thing's been in my queue for a while, marked with 'determine what all of the assumptions were'
mircea_popescu: it requires zemelo-frankel conjecture, for one thing.
mircea_popescu: and it requires more than that, if you step out of haskell and try to c, nonsense such as "universal computability", which falls apart the moment you are invited to do relatively "simple" things such as write cubes as sums of coprimes raised to large powers.
asciilifeform: dunno that it is a conjecture when the working set consists strictly of items you can have on a physical comp
mircea_popescu: none of this is dispositive ; what i'm saying here is that im pretty sure i read this, and it didn't come through as much more than tyhe usual math grad wank to me.
asciilifeform: hey if yer gonna take 'presently impossibly difficult' to mean same thing as 'uncomputable', then sha256 is goodenuff
asciilifeform: but thread is re provables.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you understand this is actually impossible, yes ?
mircea_popescu: exactly like trisection, amusingly for ~same reasons.
asciilifeform: if it's a problem in the integers, and it has an answer, it is 'possible'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no cube can be written as a sum of two co-primes raised to the power of three or above.
mircea_popescu: the 3 case is proven by euler. the > 3 case flows from you know, wiles' work.
mircea_popescu: it's the converse of the modular math / elliptic curves geometry equivalence.
asciilifeform: oh hah i mentally mutilated mircea_popescu's item into discretelogproblem, because of thread subj
mircea_popescu: right, but that's the very important point there, you don't get it without mutialrtion.
asciilifeform: impossibles dun make for useful crypto, tho
mircea_popescu: right, but what i'm saying is that the original article is much in this vein.
asciilifeform: you want possibles-but-demonstrably-painfuls
asciilifeform: i dun have a verdict on $article yet. will say that it is simply, afaik, the beginning and the end publicly available on the subj.
asciilifeform: other than our thread here.
mircea_popescu: anyway. my point is that the idea that "a practical implementation of the axion of choice always exists" is way WAY further out there than simply thje axiom of choice. WAY. because even "trivial" things (find the coprime n powers that sum to cube) are in point of FACT, know, proven, concrete poured and long dry, strictly incomputable.
mircea_popescu: so what help is it, "any f has its g" if g is in point of fact incomputable, at ALL.
mircea_popescu: f "has it" in a sense of having very mathematical altogether.
asciilifeform: author ~does~ have some strange cockroaches in his head: cites shamir's 'proof that factoring can be O(log N)' but omits to mention that it requires a machine that works in arbitrarily-sized integers in constant time...
mircea_popescu: so to sum this up in our lingua franca : one kind of fool says "this confuses me and therefore must be hard". the OTHER kind of fool says "this seems immediately beautiful and to my eyes elegant and therefore must be easy".
mircea_popescu: seems to me the main reason $item stood out to your examination is that in a sea of former fools you finally found a latter kind.
asciilifeform: again i dun have a verdict re the verdict of $subj, all i got in my notes is 'd00d appears to have stated the problem correctly'
asciilifeform will come back to this item at some point , when it works its way out of his very long digestive tract
mircea_popescu: i'd propose as heuristics from this that the moment anyone proposes either a) a computable corolary of ZFC, no matter its kind or b) a computable corolary of AOC, no matter its kind, we're lost for reason.
mircea_popescu: because neither of these, even if wrung into acceptability in the most theoretical sense, come with any sort of even vague hope of a possibility of a guarantee of computability.
mircea_popescu: ie, a haskell so pure it doesn't even run on machines, it's paper only.
asciilifeform: apparently you dun get usg.tenure for working on proofs concerning items that map directly to iron
asciilifeform: asciilifeform for instance notices that his phone is not ringing with offers of tenure.
mircea_popescu: "offers of tenure". wtf are you on about.
asciilifeform: the one non-negotiable demand of usg.academia, is uselessness.
mircea_popescu: in any case tenure is not like bushels of pistachios, to be offered in trade. it's like "true love", very much of the sociopathic ilk seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-26#1717417
a111: Logged on 2017-09-26 05:09 mircea_popescu: and in other ancient lulz: https://elaineou.com/2009/04/03/advice-for-woman-seeking-500k-earning-man/
mircea_popescu: they'll "offer you" to take them and set their fat ass down in a $5mn apartment in a condo overlooking the pierre.
mircea_popescu: hurr durr.
mircea_popescu: (well known hotel on 61st st (ie, by central park) in ny)
asciilifeform: ( point was, academitards swarm around 'demonstrations of clever' glass beads rather than items that demonstrably work, as discussed in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-02#1621290 and elsewhere )
a111: Logged on 2017-03-02 20:53 asciilifeform: the 'let's use anything, ANYTHING but rsa' thing really grates on me.
mod6: !!key deedbot
mircea_popescu: !!up deedbot
deedbot: deedbot voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: !!key deedbot
mircea_popescu: !!key mod6
BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-29#1718114 << Will have to remember the banana trick
a111: Logged on 2017-09-29 00:24 mircea_popescu: a...ficcionados (lol) can readily resolve the problem though : douche the girl, then anally feed her a banana for buffer, then load her up in whatever flavour you favour and then proceed to dinner.
mircea_popescu: nature provides precious few materials of comparable quality for this particular purpose. cuz it has to be soft and occlusive and so on, contrary engineering requirements.
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz : miicard.com. "The only way to prove you are who you say you are purely online"
BingoBoingo finds it a nice change of pace to have a Trilema fiction story with so much emphasis on the protagonists
mircea_popescu: and in other "asian people should just be holocausted" news : piece of shit router, gets set up to work on static ip, spews out the helpful error message of "the value can't be equal". verbatim. and the source of it is a pile of inclusion gnarl so you can't even trivially debug the nonsense THAT way.
asciilifeform hasn't deployed anything but hand-sewn router for maybe 4y+
asciilifeform in the company of pet, who is practicing ro-fu
asciilifeform: !!up adlai
deedbot: adlai voiced for 30 minutes.
adlai: good morning asciilifeform
asciilifeform: hiya adlai
asciilifeform: adlai: how lives the land of the sand cat ?
adlai: sand cat?
asciilifeform: little fella. in the desert.
asciilifeform: i saw one in chicago zoo.
adlai: here we mostly have street cats, that are the apex predator of the urban food chain
asciilifeform: soo what brings ya back, adlai ?
adlai: "Reading is to the mind what exercise is to the body"
adlai: curious to see how you've tackled http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-20#1716144
a111: Logged on 2017-09-20 19:22 asciilifeform: and incidentally i dun have a nonleaking miller-rabin yet, need nonleaking gcd ( have on paper, but not in ffa yet )
asciilifeform: adlai: the painfully obvious way
asciilifeform: fixed shot count, on mux
asciilifeform: nao just needs proof of correctness...
asciilifeform bbl : meat.
adlai reads about Lame's theorem: http://archive.is/yftFf
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