jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 482307 | Current Difficulty: 8.88171856257E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 483839 | Next Difficulty In: 1532 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 2 days, 9 hours, 57 minutes, and 43 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F56C06F50CA642FFEBE26155AE8715AA520DB5DA7D3F85021F43866AA14E1F69 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1021...0923 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '22.214.171.124 (ssh-rsa key from 126.96.36.199 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (s445.deinprovider.de. DE)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F56C06F50CA642FFEBE26155AE8715AA520DB5DA7D3F85021F43866AA14E1F69 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1220...4639 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '188.8.131.52 (ssh-rsa key from 184.108.40.206 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (s445.deinprovider.de. DE)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/C376A7AC72465727A5D5ECC12B096A812963EAEDD5896FD486D55178BA749249 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1367...8667 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '220.127.116.11 (ssh-rsa key from 18.104.22.168 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CA QC)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/C376A7AC72465727A5D5ECC12B096A812963EAEDD5896FD486D55178BA749249 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1592...9353 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '22.214.171.124 (ssh-rsa key from 126.96.36.199 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown CA QC)
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: dude scrollwork
ben_vulpes: we're dying over here
ben_vulpes: $girl in further stitches over panel seven of haft
ben_vulpes: "this woman is a treasure"
mircea_popescu: oglaf author ? totally.
mircea_popescu: and speaking of satisfied adult women, http://68.media.tumblr.com/d8e4b46963d6b6d59cbd75901616b80c/tumblr_nmrks14w1M1revz5to1_500.gif
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703794 << i thought it was named for the obvious, der sturmer
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 02:25 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> which one was stormfront again ? << The forum for which the Weev Daily Stormer was named, but no relation
asciilifeform: shinohai: 'What's the latest on Mircea? I've not heard about him in a while.' 'I think his followers actually kind of excommunicated him after he lost their bitcoins. I don't pay much attention to them though.' << didjaknow !
shinohai: Some people shouldn't be allowed to think.
asciilifeform: i dun see any thinking in there
asciilifeform: !~later tell ben_vulpes http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Gy3K7/?raw=true
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: ack
asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://archive.is/n1IbD >> 'The training of today’s SWOs was further eroded by the Pentagon’s focus on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Before 2010, many Navy officers who were expected to learn on the job were not on ships at all. During critical times in their professional development, they were taken away from their ships and sent to serve as individual augmentees with soldiers and Marines fighting in land-bas
asciilifeform: ed operations.'
BingoBoingo: Now that's Qntra worthy
asciilifeform: in other noose, https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurity17/sec17-tang.pdf >> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Gw8Sr/?raw=true << ever wonder what 'power management' controller is actually for ? ( answer: fault injection, so nsa can help your, e.g., chineseremaindertheorem-using rsatron, shit out privkey )
asciilifeform: !!up kanzure
deedbot: kanzure voiced for 30 minutes.
kanzure: where precisely do i go to pitch mircea on eugenics 2.0?
asciilifeform: here. when he wakes up.
kanzure: alright well that's lame.
asciilifeform: or you can speak now and he'll read the logz and maybe answer.
kanzure: i have begun to master the art of sleeptyping so sleep is no longer an inconvenience
kanzure: yeah maybe not appropriate for public logs at the moment
asciilifeform: i'll also warn that neither mp nor most of the folks here, engage in 'private' conversation with folx they do not know.
kanzure: should i be hurt that he doesn't know me?
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/08/exposed-us-navy-officer-corps-not-very-good-at-boating/ << Qntra - Exposed: US Navy Officer Corps Not Very Good At Boating
asciilifeform: i can't speak for him, but i only very vaguely know you, kanzure , through n-th degree meatspace .
BingoBoingo: kanzure: What's the worst that happens if you pitch in a public log?
kanzure: basically i sat down and tried to figure out what is the most controversial idea i could possibly construct
kanzure: i am proposing an aggressive timeline like 100 designer baby genomes by 2030 and then 1 million designer babies by 2045
kanzure: here's some background on plausible modifications that are aleady well known http://diyhpl.us/wiki/genetic-modifications/
kanzure: so i guess to answer your question, ethnic cleansings?
asciilifeform: re the linked piece, i'm not satisfied with the direction of the causal arrow having been established
kanzure: well in many cases the mutations listed on that page have not been documented (on that page) as impacting positively or negatively. so the document should not be considered a definitive lookup table.
kanzure: and also the effect size is minimal in many cases.
asciilifeform: picture if some martian got a hold of a number of pc and gave them same treatment as the geneticists : 'mov rar, [ecx + ebx] at 0x40000000 associated with 0.5% increased memory allocator performance !!1111'
asciilifeform: but somehow same thing does not appear ridiculous to literate folx, when done in meat ??
kanzure: yes a lot of biology is stupid i'm not sure what your concern is
asciilifeform: concern is that literally the entire document linked earlier, is ~content-free
BingoBoingo: lol, this is their take on a common mutation: "The polymorphisms rs1800497 and rs2283265 (also known as the Taq1a polymorphism) near the dopamine receptor 2 (DRD2) gene are associated with improvements during working memory training. (rs1800497(C;C) better avoidance of errors). However this polymorphism comes with serious tradeoffs: antisocial, borderline, dissocial, and avoidant personality disorders, addictive and impulsive behaviors s
BingoBoingo: uch as binge eating, pathological gambling, and drug abuse. (more)"
asciilifeform: and that we know jack shit re the effects of the loci UNTIL SOMEBODY TOGGLES'EM AT WILL
asciilifeform: in man
kanzure: yes well online interactive toggling is also a possible thing
kanzure: anyway, you don't need to focus merely on small mutations, you can also voluntarily delete chunks of chromosomes or whatever
kanzure: optogenetics is one way of interactive toggle (usuaully using neuronal receptors but there are other techniques such as light-sensitive cas9/recombinases/etc)
asciilifeform: this happens ordinarily, neh
asciilifeform: so far the volume of ~interesting~ result with meaningful pvalue, is -- afaik -- 0
asciilifeform: which suggests that ~whole field consisted of 1 part 1980s tech ( largely working on ecoli ) to 99 parts hypolade.
kanzure: wwc1 t/t carriers tend have >19% improvement in working memory performance
asciilifeform: people over 2 metres tall, same
asciilifeform: but where is the causative link ?
kanzure: also, i am part of hgp-write (basically human genome project 2.0) one of our projects is removing 7 codons from the genome to render human biology impervious to all existing viruses.
kanzure: where's your "causual link" now
asciilifeform: this was worked as ancient sf plot : breed 'nonvirusable' folx, then plaguenuke everybody else
asciilifeform: i suspect -- difficult to reduce to practice.
kanzure: well there's some ecoli results for you.
asciilifeform: very, very easy, to make $tech work on... paper.
kanzure: ecoli is an actual biology
kanzure: thanks for playing
asciilifeform: even ecoli is picky
BingoBoingo suggests sticking to the basics. P53 overexpression, Myostatin inhibition, and let the dice go on everything else
asciilifeform: kanzure: i and ~50 other folx, lost jobs, because it proved ~impossible to persistently force $valuableprotein secretion in ecoli
asciilifeform: for our particular value of $protein
kanzure: pore secretion?
asciilifeform: kanzure: objective was to economically make (by the kg) a (modified) butyrylcholinesterase
asciilifeform: ( this is in the l0gz somewhere, ancient thread , if you give a damn )
kanzure: i read all logs everywhere. it's sort of my thing.
asciilifeform: at any rate, if kanzure knows how to make, e.g., transgenic muscle men, or thicker bone, etc. he should not settle for small change, go, make
asciilifeform: the money bathtubs await
asciilifeform: and learn chinese.
kanzure: well i was thinking about just going for the heart of the whole thing (designer genomes/eugenics) and go after those bathtubs
asciilifeform: 1st step, as i understand : chinese.
kanzure: jihan has been quite friendly so far
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-day-of-failure-trilemma/ << Trilema - The Day of Failure Trilemma
asciilifeform: i have nfi who is jihan
kanzure: just some guy it doesn't matter
asciilifeform: oh here he is!
shinohai: asciilifeform: He is one of Roger Ver's Chinese muppets
mircea_popescu: i got a fucking headache.
kanzure: i don't know any hereditary magic tricks to eliminate headaches but that should be doable.
kanzure: first you have to kill everyone who has ever had a headache...
mircea_popescu: don't be ridiculous, it's cocktail flu.
mircea_popescu: well, unless i am actually coming down with something.
shinohai recommends 2 excederin and a bottle or 3 of Gatorade ....
mircea_popescu: the problem with hanging out with sluts is well known to soccer moms. kids are fine, you're fucking dead.
mircea_popescu: shinohai if i lived in a jivilized country with jews in it i'd just have some cabbage juice. sadly, no cellars here. too hot, too wet.
shinohai: "Cabbage Jewz"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: large peltier with drain hose ~cured my 'too hot, too wet'
asciilifeform: might work foryou also.
mircea_popescu: i guess. there's an inch of soil and under that basalt, you understand. there's a reason jungle soil is poor -- all of it gets washed into ocean.
mircea_popescu: and in other shit i will now randombly whine about : i bought these coasters, right ? cuz i was in some random mall picking up some chick and we went in an "upscale" libreria and well, i dunno, i impulse bought some fucking coasters. she thought they were expensive.
asciilifeform: they were golden, or wat
mircea_popescu: here's the problems with "expensive, upscale" coasters : they're not a square of cut up cork, like you'd expect if they were you know, uncivilised, unglamorous, un-internet-of-things orcfare. no. they're a thin strip of cork glued to cardboard with some shiny drawings on top.
mircea_popescu: cuz i TOTALLY need pretty colorful pictures on my fucking coasters, lest my brain turns off or some shit.
asciilifeform actually has some gold coasters. ( they're dud mitsui cd-r, gold, yes ! )
mircea_popescu: now : the sheen on the top adheres to wet glasses, which in this climate is ALL of them. so you get floating coasters.
mircea_popescu: AND the dumbass cardboard gets destroyed by water.
kanzure: about to get unvoiced i think. could someone offer mircea_popescu a link to the right place in the logs for the eugenics war.
asciilifeform: kanzure: you got 10min or so, why not let's have it ?
asciilifeform: what've you got ?
kanzure: oh my god i am bad at math
mircea_popescu: THIS is what your money's fucking buying omfg, "i live in the country so i can spend 80k a year on renting a cardboard box and have nice coasters which are worse than a fucking pile of dried goat shit"
mircea_popescu: kanzure i read the logs anyway.
kanzure: wait my math is fine
mircea_popescu: !!up kanzure
deedbot: kanzure voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: tempus fugit..
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 16:16 asciilifeform: shinohai: 'What's the latest on Mircea? I've not heard about him in a while.' 'I think his followers actually kind of excommunicated him after he lost their bitcoins. I don't pay much attention to them though.' << didjaknow !
asciilifeform: kanzure: mike w promised myostatin inhibitor to me in 2007 !!1111 where is it ?!
mircea_popescu: really, "i wonder what happened to the clouds, i've not been out of basement for a decade, poor clouds, they must be faring poorly"
kanzure: asciilifeform: i have someone else working on a very similar project these days. it's in progress.
kanzure: asciilifeform: turns out you have to actually pay people to do things
asciilifeform: evidently that ain't enough, or, e.g., software would work
asciilifeform: ( picture if programmers were only paid for ~working~ soft... )
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:12 kanzure: alright well that's lame.
kanzure: lame about sleep?
kanzure: it's hell of a way to spend one's life, that's all.
mircea_popescu: oh, that's what you meant.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:16 kanzure: basically i sat down and tried to figure out what is the most controversial idea i could possibly construct
kanzure: one of the genetic changes i have proposed is something that seems to cause 4-5 hours/night to be sufficient rest
kanzure: mircea_popescu: well actually the origin of the idea is that i am interested in genome engineering and human enhancement technology. but i also recognize that controversy is necessary to bring attention and funding.
mircea_popescu: ah come on, designer baby purse, seriously ?
asciilifeform: kanzure: realize that your entire corpus of 'knowledge' is of approx same grade as 'get married, grow taller!'
mircea_popescu: i take it you don't know you never read http://trilema.com/2016/i-am-firmly-against-universal-franchise/ ? and don't know you should have read it ? and so on ?
kanzure: mircea_popescu: correct. i've looked at it just now but i don't see how it changes anything. shouldn't you prefer people to be hard workers, even if they can't own property?
mircea_popescu: kanzure the model whereby you "attract funding" for "your idea" is fundamentally broken. i don't mean a little broken, i mean fundamentally broken -- it makes it impossible to actually have an idea, which is why your "attempt to find the most controversial conceivable notion" ended up with "what bit of fashionable nonsense could i waste my life with in the optimisitc but ultimately baseless hope it'll be worthy my or anyone's
mircea_popescu: kanzure read the whole thing.
mircea_popescu: it gets to a ~functioning~ model for designer babies.
kanzure: what if i claim that i'm illiterate
mircea_popescu: no, i get it, you want to single play the WoWoW.
kanzure: i'm looking i'm looking.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> don't be ridiculous, it's cocktail flu. << The doctor prescribes Bloody Mary x2
kanzure: mircea_popescu: i disagree with your evaluation of whether it's a waste of time, or that it is fashionable in the least. i simply recognize the value of controversy.
kanzure: and the controversy stuff is a tacky add-on, i'll admit.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo you ever had the cabbage juice btw ?
kanzure: i haven't internalized your post completely so i'm not sure what you are expecting me to extract from it.
mircea_popescu: kanzure do you understand how current "genetic engineering" works ? specifically why it's done to corn not sheep ?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo the way you make this is that in a dry and cold cellar you emplace a tun, 100 liters say. then fill it with whole cabbages. then add brine and some spices. then let it sit a few months.
mircea_popescu: !~google "moare de varza"
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Explozie de SANATATE in zeama de varza . Bolile care pot fi tratate ...: <http://www.aktual24.ro/explozie-de-sanatate-in-zeama-de-varza-bolile-care-pot-fi-tratate-usor-cu-moare/>; Zeama de varză murată - 3 motive să o bei - CSID: <http://www.csid.ro/diet-sport/noutati-dieta-si-sport/zeama-de-varza-murata-3-motive-sa-o-bei-11877690/>; Varza murată şi beneficiile ei uimitoare pentru organism - (1 more message)
kanzure: i understand many aspects of genetic engineering. i also understand why mammalian projects are more complex.
mircea_popescu: kanzure as to the question asked specifically.
kanzure: it's done to many mammals i'm not sure about sheep specifically. why would sheep matter?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Never had the cabbage juice. Twas a big fan of curing hangovers with moar booze
mircea_popescu: sigh. alright, here, let me give you a primer on genetics as a tehcnological consideration, so you can impress the "what happened to mp" ass-up-buttholes with your transcendental scholarship.
kanzure: they actually know nothing about you
kanzure: it's sort of weird. i asked and their answer was "he's angry". i am pretty sure they are idiots.
mircea_popescu: so, originally genetic experiments were carried out on mammals, hence dolly the cloned sheep. it rapidly became obvious that the only available tech ("throw shit at wall, maybe something sticks") is a terrible fit for the complexity of mammals, and there's absolutely no hope of obtaining iondustrially usable results this generation there.
kanzure: yes there are many tools that are necessary to make progress, such as order-of-magnitude cheaper dna assembly and synthesis technologies.
mircea_popescu: so effort was instead moved to plants, which are three degrees of magnitude simpler. there, the approach works, you blast a square mile worth of soy with random nonsense and then select the few plants still standing. which is how the whole "glycosate-resistent" craze started : it's not DESIGNER plants.
kanzure: my technique of favor at the moment is inkjet-based synthesis, a writeup is here but it's a well-known technique http://diyhpl.us/wiki/dna/synthesis/notes/
kanzure: yes i am aware of mutagenesis and selection techniques
mircea_popescu: it's plants which have been selected for the only hopefully-economically-useful trait available. which is already a very distant push.
kanzure: my preferences regarding selective breeding are documented here with some project proposals http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/irc/2017-02-03-beacon.pdf
mircea_popescu: well so if you're familiar why don't you answer when asked.
kanzure: i have no idea how to speak with you
mircea_popescu: this is a problem.
kanzure: many would consider the illiteracy to be the primary problem
mircea_popescu: back on topic : you know what uncanny valley is ?
kanzure: yea. the thing where people care what looks real.
mircea_popescu: the thing where getting a "designer baby" be 99.9999% identical to an actual baby makes it less tolerable than a 99% or 80% similar result ; and not a little less tolerable, EXTREMELY intolerable.
mircea_popescu: in other words : you don't have the technology to even dare hope you may create one monster per million tries. what designer babies ?
kanzure: i agree that the technology is missing. it should be built.
mircea_popescu: this is not how technology is built.
mircea_popescu: the "We did it reddit" dork got pounded saturday, did you watch the fight ?
mircea_popescu: anyways. did you happen to read say http://trilema.com/2017/is-it-still-rape-if-i-write-science-on-my-penis-first/#footnote_4_71619 ?
mircea_popescu: technology isn't "built" in that sense, from outside.
kanzure: outside of what
asciilifeform: from outside of yer own two hands.
asciilifeform: with which you build things.
kanzure: i would argue there is a knowledge component.
kanzure: i am not really sure how your epistemology works
asciilifeform: i did say 'two hands', not 'four hooves', neh
mircea_popescu: kanzure the idea is that there's entirely no relation between shoulding and tech building. whether it should or shouldn't, it'll go at the same rate.
mircea_popescu: science, research, technology are not political outputs. they are political inputs.
kanzure: you know maaku's apoliticalism right?
mircea_popescu: not as such. link ?
kanzure: nah no links. he just has a deep hatred of politics.
kanzure: i don't think he's written about it
mircea_popescu: (i have a very deep dislike for modern derps putting their name on things, though.)
asciilifeform never once heard of a maaku
kanzure: ((but since you knew bitcoin people i thought you would know, but w/e, it doesn't matter.))
mircea_popescu: anyway, there's no dislike here. just the factual matter.
BingoBoingo: <kanzure> you know maaku's apoliticalism right? << BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH A clash of who remembers/knows who with predictabru results
mircea_popescu: kanzure my survey of the online world mostly happens in the sense intel prepares summaries which i sometimes read, but generally looking for a laugh.
kanzure: i agree that should or shouldn't doesn't factor into it, but rate does change with intellectual effort
mircea_popescu: no such thing.
kanzure: unless you're fucking eliezer yudzilla
kanzure: in which case you don't get anything done
asciilifeform: kanzure: civ1 lied to you: there ain't such a thing as a 'money to discovery converter' you can shovel freshly-printed benjies into, and get transgenic mighty man out
mircea_popescu: it changes with intellectual ~discipline~. thisis not the same thing as effort.
mircea_popescu: and yes there's some relation between discipline as a societal construct, and politics. but this is complicated and poorly understood.
kanzure: so your model is disciplined folks haphazardly dwaddling along playing around with stupid technologies until they do something that turns out to be disciplined?
mircea_popescu: mno. my model is that people who are disciplined enough to behave rigurously will discover things at the rate at which this happens.
asciilifeform: the number of coolies illicitly removed from their chinese rice field and paid to 'publish or perish' cock-pulling adventure in usa, has 0 impact on anything.
BingoBoingo: <kanzure> unless you're fucking eliezer yudzilla << The fanfic guy?
mircea_popescu: discipline is a narrower set than effort, you understand. it seems "hard" ie efortful, especially for the noob. but it is not that hard once you internalize it. the effort-seeker howevere ends up mired in your sort of activity, "what's the most mentally painful activity, that'll be REALLY putting in some effort".
mircea_popescu: it's not. it's just faking the exam.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: thiel's catamite. he even bought him a harem, so he can pretend 'just like mp!'
mircea_popescu: o ? is this the guy who brave brave brave sir robert put out a fanfic challenge, then trilema blew a hole in his head and he "never heard of it" a la buffett ?
kanzure: BingoBoingo: yes the fanfic guy
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: crackpot with looong history, goes back to '90s
asciilifeform: !#s yudkowsky
kanzure: he's basically the gmaxwell of fearmongering about x-risk/ai
mircea_popescu: oh, oh, with the independent girlfriends and the ai thing ? and the something basilisk mega-pantsuit ?
kanzure: (except useless because he doesn't actually do anything)
kanzure: yea those morons
kanzure: anyway, i call him "yudzilla" or "big yud"
mircea_popescu: a well.
BingoBoingo: kanzure: And what does maaku do again, recognize the identifier, but not anything identifiable
kanzure: BingoBoingo: bitcoin core stuff. it's not important really.
mircea_popescu: kanzure you also read the famous piece with the "Where's the rembrandts" i take it ?
kanzure: mircea_popescu: i would say my approach has been focused towards disciplined centralized technology roadmapping and planning. and then personally financing some of the projects. although it turns out that stuff is expensive and stupid.
kanzure: did you not take my illiteracy seriously
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform link again plox ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which
mircea_popescu: you recall, "where's the south african rembrandts, same size as flanders"
mircea_popescu: !!key kanzure
mircea_popescu: !#s from:mirc rate kanzure
a111: 4 results for "from:mirc rate kanzure", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Amirc%20rate%20kanzure
a111: Logged on 2016-11-07 16:53 mircea_popescu: recall the "where are the rembrandts then" argument ? the us fails to produce a philosopher worth the mention every other decade ; athens managed that much on 1/1000th the population.
mircea_popescu: !!rate kanzure 1 old-new blood
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2014/fata-morgana-or-the-mirage-of-a-free-and-open-market/ << mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: um wasn't mine
mircea_popescu: !!v 1B741BE33650B2139657BAFB37C451AC308F32FA71ED8B6062DAF4EB38DCEBE5
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated kanzure 1 << old-new blood
mircea_popescu: kanzure say !!up to deedbot in private then !!v to verify the string it gives you
asciilifeform: !!rated kanzure
deedbot: asciilifeform rated kanzure -1 at 2014/06/21 22:40:29 << minor-league quisling; inquire within
mircea_popescu: https://static.pinboard.in/webstock_2014.htm << there we go. so kanzure : fine piece as any to explain the difference between "effort" and discipline.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform give him a reprieve wouldja ?
asciilifeform: yeah why not
asciilifeform: !!rate kanzure 1 rezident
mircea_popescu: !!gettrust deedbot kanzure
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 3 connections.
asciilifeform: !!v 9B2D09B4E781D769A3ED96E4E8DCBDD4772EF823D6E966EE7F96F32D66DE9DB5
deedbot: asciilifeform updated rating of kanzure from -1 to 1 << rezident
asciilifeform: there kanzure , you oughta be able to voice. try to stay interesting.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform thanks for the link, it was in there happily.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the other good illustration re effort/discipline for our needs here is of course the observation re possible symmetries, and how the subhuman cultures never actually discovered all of them. why noit ? they had decorative arts too, effort went in...
a111: Logged on 2017-07-30 03:43 mircea_popescu: https://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/WhyAntiInt.htm
mircea_popescu: there isn't a "for every million clay pots you get another one of the 17 symmetries". the right guys need twenty pots to find all of them. the polynesians or the africans will NEVER find them like they never found fucking madagascar.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha!
mircea_popescu: !#s "walid"
mircea_popescu: damn. am i the only khalid al-walid fan out there ? is this possible ?
asciilifeform: not the only. but possibly only one who sprechens englisch
mircea_popescu: !#s "napoleon"
kanzure: mircea_popescu: surely you don't follow the kurzweil philosophy of "sit around and wait for people to be productive on their own"?
mircea_popescu: you know, dude was a better napoleon in the sense the term's usually used. he certainly didn'\t fucking forget about a whole army corps etc.
mircea_popescu: kanzure no. i keep slavegirls, whom i produce out of free ranged girls through beatings and generally speaking torture.
mircea_popescu: but the effort is in the sense of cleanning, not in the sense of pushing.
kanzure: isn't that sort of limited
mircea_popescu: limited by what ?
kanzure: what outcomes are you trying to effectuate precisely
mircea_popescu: i am not trying to effectuate any outcomes whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: causes ; not purposes.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo ahahaha great
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Excellent tinkerer
mircea_popescu: the look on the 2nd one, you know, total precious cat "fuck, they're doing the people magic bullshit again"
BingoBoingo: for real, much better than the contrived knock off https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_tk-XrXFHo
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703847 << let's have a look at what "Documenting" would look like on a topic of interest (intelligence) : http://trilema.com/2015/the-genetics-of-intelligence/
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:20 kanzure: well in many cases the mutations listed on that page have not been documented (on that page) as impacting positively or negatively. so the document should not be considered a definitive lookup table.
kanzure: "or at least, I think discipline is more correlated than effort. You can work _very_ hard at something and make no progress because your efforts are not directed."
mircea_popescu: or am i expected to think "designer" isn't to be interpreted to mean i can want a smart baby ? after all i can buy designer bags, of whichever kind, the only bags i can't buy being bags that ARE ANY GOOD. something like that ?
kanzure: i actually am not interested in intelligence genetics. i am more interested in things like working memory, memory capacity, etc.
mircea_popescu: so is alf, as fate has it!
kanzure: the difference between a monkey and a human is interesting. the difference between human and human, as measured by iq, is totally irrelevant to me. humans are idiots if you compare them only to each other.
mircea_popescu: we never had a good outing of this theme ; but it is my (probably heretical) notion that memory size dun really enter into it.
kanzure: well i don't really know if memory has an actual size (that concept might be bullshit)-- what about retention, is that the same thing as size
mircea_popescu: the ~only important thing is if your knowledge is structured or not ; and how. hence that older observation re dictionaries, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-21#1587276 etc.
a111: Logged on 2016-12-21 18:32 mircea_popescu: because no, words don't "have meanings". your meanings for ANY WORD are a function of ALL THE OTHER WORDS YOU KNOW. which is why my definitions regularily blow out english dictionaries, wikipedia and other sources of "wisdom" out of the water - i know more words, and in this knowledge i know all the words i know ~better~. infinitely and irreproducibly so.
asciilifeform: !#s myelin
asciilifeform: kanzure ^ somewhere in there, we had a testable hypothesis.
mircea_popescu: in any case ; i am notorious for a very poor memory, including complete inability to remember say actresses names.
asciilifeform: re (possibly all) extant variation in various cns 'horsepower'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i subscribe, not a bad angle. in fact, possibly best available atm.
asciilifeform: it handily explains the reflex speed 'g-loadedness', for instance.
asciilifeform: model axon as 'leaky feeder coax'.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm sure i told the story of the dog ?
mircea_popescu: "memory", what's that. he got a bit of memory out of his own body through structuring the environment.
kanzure: intelligence or specific mutation is in the weeds; i'm still stuck trying to figure out your sense of "discipline". my approach has often been: death ray made up of delibrate effort -> problem => solution.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was dog's version of writing.
mircea_popescu: kanzure when i was a kid, i had a friend. he built this shambling abomination of a bar, each layer a different style, floor after floor.
mircea_popescu: it was in the early days of capitalism, and well...
kanzure: what was his goal
mircea_popescu: anyway. he'd hire student kids to do work for him. i once watched a dozen of them, try to demolish a wall with a 60kg hammer.
mircea_popescu: do you know how much effort they poured into it ? hours later, the wall was undented.
mircea_popescu: the pro got there, tore it all down without breaking a sweat.
kanzure: could be anywhere from zero to a lot of effort, if they made no progress. but they might also be idiots.
mircea_popescu: (spoiler : the idiots were trying to push the hammer. that's not how you tear down walls.)
mircea_popescu: this is then what discipline is. gotta do it ~right~.
kanzure: is swinging a hammer a form of effort here? i don't know man.
mircea_popescu: how not ?
mircea_popescu: they were fucking sweatting bullets, if that's not effort what is.
kanzure: they were sweating bullets from their sheer stupidity
mircea_popescu: this machine eats the same 200 W any mouthbreather's windows eats. just, mine isn't putting any of that towards animated paper clips.
kanzure: (sweat only weely correlates with effort)
mircea_popescu: then you misuse the term. how could sweat correlate weakly with effort, it's like saying gasoline consumption correlates weakly with distance travelled.
kanzure: alright well anyway, discipline seems more like a reliable metric i suppose, but go back to your insistence on causes not outcomes
kanzure: "I don't want anything, it's a factual observation." <-- this person is lying. he was communicating for a reason.
mircea_popescu: you think ?
kanzure: well i suppose this is your topic of the moment. processing...
mircea_popescu: does the sun also come out for a reason ?
mircea_popescu: you just happened to be there when it did, that's all.
kanzure: "and as such they're not only infinite and uncountable, but even undefined" but isn't this what calibration is for. you communicate with people because you are trying to callibrate collective goal behavior shit.
kanzure: and if the behavior is not actually generating the desired results, you go do other behavior, etc.
kanzure: (or change the desires appropriately if they were stupid)
kanzure: why bother listening to someone if they are just spewing irrelevant noise? bleh
trinque: indeed. go read the "causes and purposes" thing.
mircea_popescu: come to think of it, perhaps the best conversational definition for discipline would be "the opposite of WSOD".
kanzure: "do it if you feel like it" is lazy and undisciplined.
kanzure: (re: "causes")
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703846 << fine example of the item at work. and yes it's hard, but it's mostly hard AMONG THE IDIOTs, who want to herp derp and muh consensuses.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:19 asciilifeform: re the linked piece, i'm not satisfied with the direction of the causal arrow having been established
mircea_popescu: kanzure you think ? and pray tell what's satan to pay you so that you love him ?
kanzure: communication error
mircea_popescu: what OTHER fucking reason than feeling like it can there be!
kanzure: because you are doing it regardless of feels?
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/pushing-the-soft-tender-flesh-of-a-friend-against-the-sharp-rotating-blades-of-the-immutable-machine/#selection-959.491-969.11 << satan paying you to love him reference.
kanzure: do you memorize bookmars like i do?
mircea_popescu: someone needs a new eyboard.
kanzure: i was once king of the nerdpeople http://www.seanwrona.com/typeracer/profile.php?username=kanzure
kanzure: 'Someone, somewhere, may well possess the secret of how to build a thermonuke using the materials of ordinary electronics.' *cough*
kanzure: 15:10 < kanzure> i'm a little confused. i know the prepwork is really annoying and laborious in theory. perhaps he should just mean a low-effort nuke.
kanzure: 15:11 < kanzure> oh right he doesn't believe in fucking effort
kanzure: (not true. i'm teasing.)
kanzure: "special thyratrons"
trinque: the fuck does effort have to do with purpose and generally speaking (and charitably) what point do you have?
kanzure: well originally my purpose (that's right i said it) of bringing this up with mircea_popescu was to query his preferences regarding thermonuclear war err i mean eugenics err i mean direct participation in technology development for genome engineering projects
kanzure: there are in fact things that i do not know so i figured i would go figure those things out
kanzure: if things are so willy wonka in here that one cannot apply effort to directed intentional behavior then i'm not really sure how to communicate
trinque: that was in no way a response to my question, and this isn't "lets all shitpost our feelings to signal how smart we are"
trinque: isn't it rather that in observing your own ignorance on a subject, you were moved to appear here?
trinque: so, cause.
kanzure: but it can't be a purpose? okay.
trinque: what'd it mean if it were a purpose?
kanzure: apparently it would be invalid. but not if it's labeled a cause. that's my understanding of the feedback so far.
trinque: no sort of political labeling *of reality* is going on, only labeling of a particular failure mode of the mind.
trinque: *there are not* purposes.
trinque: yudsy's basillisk does not flow back through time in-order-to bring about itself.
phf: "intelligence" "humans are idiots" "kurzweil" "working memory" "genetics" "yudkowsky". it's funny at some point you don't even need to read the log, you can figure out the particular, previously observed failure mode of a person by keywords that stand out
kanzure: but i like neither yudkowsy nor kurzweil :(
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, here asciilifeform i got one for you : drujba in romanian ? chainsaw. and because there was that whole 80s "ask a girl for her friendship" thingee, ... "he offered me his chainsaw".
mircea_popescu: phf did he fail yet ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703856 << moreover the "effects of loci" thing is rank nonsense of the level of "here's my thermometer-based debugging tool. who wants to measure cpu quadrant temperatures as software runs ???". there's no localisation in that sense.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:23 asciilifeform: and that we know jack shit re the effects of the loci UNTIL SOMEBODY TOGGLES'EM AT WILL
mircea_popescu: consider a simple element of historical warfare, that the us army could not reproduce today : arrow messaging. now, what is the effect of forest guard locus #48 on the court getting news of battle at hartford ? toggle it to what, taller man ?
mircea_popescu: "when all the 108 men in the 40 mile line were blond, the message came that the battle was won ; but later when two of them went to eat and were replaced by guys with green eyes, the message came through that lord monmouth's daugther ran off with the circus."
phf: i don't think so, this is more like figuring out that something's broken in a car by the sounds that the engine is making. doesn't mean that the car's not working anymore. it seems reasonable though that causes and purposes would be the response, since that kind of eliadism is a natural counterpoint to above... that's just my impressions though
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703860 << sure. say hello to http://trilema.com/2017/hela-matter/
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:24 kanzure: anyway, you don't need to focus merely on small mutations, you can also voluntarily delete chunks of chromosomes or whatever
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703868 << ahahahaha this was the best line of the day.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:26 kanzure: also, i am part of hgp-write (basically human genome project 2.0) one of our projects is removing 7 codons from the genome to render human biology impervious to all existing viruses.
kanzure: i should not claim to be related to the codon recoding, it's a subproject that was not proposed by me
mircea_popescu: boeke iirc.
kanzure: and church. etc.
shinohai: Wherefore removal of condoms got us all in this mess
mircea_popescu: anyway. are you pursuing a microbiology phd or something kanzure ?
kanzure: i am not associated with academia
kanzure: i read a bunch though: http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/bio/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/DNA/ http://diyhpl.us/~bryan/papers2/neuro/ etc
mircea_popescu: mkay. here's the problem : on one hand there's lieberman's very stern "forbidden to have course on nonsense" ; on the other hand people can't fucking help it that they're clueless on topics, and the sort of lulzy doodle nonsense sprouted by boetke is not HIS fault. that's, truthfully, how little we know of genetics.
mircea_popescu: this is an immense chasm, which will not see productive results in your lifetime. consequently the only options open to you are to either find something else to do ; or else go into welfare.
mircea_popescu: the ~only useful point of the state at this micro level is that it leaks tax money, enough so as to support hopeless research in fields not favoured by industry.
kanzure: is that a broad wlfare of survitude to wealthy patrons or what
mircea_popescu: hm ?
kanzure: is fundraising == welfare?
mircea_popescu: as contemplated here yes.
kanzure: k just checking
mircea_popescu: patreon, gofundme or whatever. i forget what they're all called, angel list something.
kanzure: crowdfunding doesn't work (if the crowd had money then they wouldn't need crowdfunding)
mircea_popescu: in my view it worked superbly -- it made britney spears the LAST of these "stars" build out of mob spending power.
mircea_popescu: good fucking riddance.
kanzure: she was not blessed by the noodly appendage of pre-fame wealth?
mircea_popescu: iirc she was trailer trash neh ?
kanzure: no idea. what happened to you not remembering celebrities.
mircea_popescu: i'm slightly better with teenagers.
kanzure: fair enough
kanzure: "productive results" in my book include cheap genome synthesis, the results of which are easily in reach (engineers haven't even bothered to optimize inkjet firing rate. "boo hoo it overheats and we haven't tried cooling").
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704196 << mno. 'druzhba' (friendship) was THE sov-era chainsaw.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 22:42 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, here asciilifeform i got one for you : drujba in romanian ? chainsaw. and because there was that whole 80s "ask a girl for her friendship" thingee, ... "he offered me his chainsaw".
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703880 << if only dadan karambolo microbiology worked irl!
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:29 BingoBoingo suggests sticking to the basics. P53 overexpression, Myostatin inhibition, and let the dice go on everything else
asciilifeform: so logical -- a la 'dumpster', 'xerox'.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. that's why.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704198 << there do exist known single-locus items. just as 'flip this byte to nop and removes the derpy copyprotection' was a thing in manmade items.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 22:44 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703856 << moreover the "effects of loci" thing is rank nonsense of the level of "here's my thermometer-based debugging tool. who wants to measure cpu quadrant temperatures as software runs ???". there's no localisation in that sense.
asciilifeform: but there are very very few of these known.
mircea_popescu: yes, but how far'll get you.
kanzure: mircea_popescu: specifically do those causes just not interest you (health, lifespan, memory, gene therapy, etc), or is there some sort of confusion about actual feasibility, or what
mircea_popescu: kanzure i doubt there's much confusion re feasibility.
kanzure: certain things are more feasible than others. and there's a lot of morons out there causing lots of noise.
mircea_popescu: it's not that it's not feasible, it's that stretching your anus to accomodate trains is more feasible.
mircea_popescu: the noise part is sadly quite true.
kanzure: so if your feasibility assessment is based on the stupid shit you've heard before, then that's understandable
kanzure: there's signal that provides information about negative results. that's not noise.
mircea_popescu: kanzure appreciate what you're saying here. "mp, you're spending millions to get bad intel". rly ?
kanzure: i'm not that far yet, i'm just saying "if your superpowers are limited to writing blog posts then i'm not sure what you have to offer"
kanzure: e.g. no knowledge of you spending millions on anything at all
phf: it is certainly because you haven't found the right pdfs
kanzure: oh is that the problem
mircea_popescu: wait, i was offering something ?!
kanzure: mircea_popescu: your blog posts offer something yes. or are you just babbling for no reason?
shinohai: Rich guys don't sit around in irc all day and make blog posts!
mircea_popescu: well, actually, i'm the authority here, definitionally what i'm saying can't be babbling. you've upgraded your argument from "your intel is broken" to tmsr dun werk, it's a very dubious trek.
mircea_popescu: take a more productive tack, like say something concrete.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704234 << my q for kanzure -- why not do this with own hands ? what do you need the heathens for ? just do it. iirc you even have money. and hands. so. do. it.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 23:03 kanzure: "productive results" in my book include cheap genome synthesis, the results of which are easily in reach (engineers haven't even bothered to optimize inkjet firing rate. "boo hoo it overheats and we haven't tried cooling").
kanzure: authorities definitionally can't babble? show me how that works.
asciilifeform: cool the print nozzle, make transgenic muscle army, annihilate the derps.
asciilifeform: i'll even buy a ticket to watch.
kanzure: asciilifeform: insufficient money i think. although this might be a bad reason. i could accept that. nobody calls me on this type of thing.
mircea_popescu: kanzure " Obviously there is no possiblity of meaning outside of a structure of authority, and the authority can not be predicated on the meaning."
mircea_popescu: it's in the last link, re teh HeLa.
asciilifeform: kanzure: terrible reason. you'd be surprised on what can be done for almost no money.
asciilifeform: FUCKGOATS, for instance, obsoleted entire pseudoindustry.
kanzure: well i'm not one to argue for inflated resources, sure
mircea_popescu: so far it's not altogether clear what specirfically you're arguing for tbh.
kanzure: no i'm still claiming your intel is broken
mircea_popescu: yes but unless you make falsifiable statements of value it's not very useful.
kanzure: dna is relevant. production of synthetic dna is relevant and feasible, even if nobody promises you shakespearen genomes on day 1.
asciilifeform: i remember the first time i used a pcr thermocycler and was told 'costs 8k usd', and thought 'are you all retarded, peltier on my cpu cost 10bux'
asciilifeform: and afaik TO THIS DAY the 'pro' machine costs 8k
asciilifeform: ( though NOW with peltier in it )
kanzure: yes and then people made cheapo thermocyclers. what's wrong with that?
asciilifeform: because it ain't about results, the 'field' is about spending cheap usg spendolade
asciilifeform: on sinecures
kanzure: (openpcr actually isn't that cheap. it's sort of annoying.)
mircea_popescu: ahaha there's an open-pcr ?
kanzure: yea it sucks tho
kanzure: it's like adobe air + an arduino
mircea_popescu: phf the more amusing thing here is that only last week i was wondering where the 3d printing folk went.
kanzure: and then lasercut plywood because we're all hipsters and our eyes don't bleed
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you gotta see this thing.
kanzure: asciilifeform: here's a little project of mine, recently. https://blog.kitmatic.com/2017/06/28/electroporation-is-now-quick-high-yield-and-commodity-priced/
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: whichthing
mircea_popescu: the plywood pcr
mircea_popescu: shit i wish we thought of this in the early days of "fpga mining".
asciilifeform: ^ the lulzy bit is not that it exists ( it existed 10y ago ) but that it had 0 effect on the cost of 'pro' apparatus
mircea_popescu: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/930368578/openpcr-open-source-biotech-on-your-desktop << possibly better link
shinohai: Handy pic of what someone that actually uses open-pcr might look like: http://openpcr.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Picture-9.png
asciilifeform: when you have an expense acct from usg.academia, you not only dun give a fuq what the instrument costs -- but the option of 'use peltier' is not even on the table
kanzure: that pic was actually taken from a volunteer birdhouse assembly workshop
asciilifeform: shinohai: that thing exists so that beckman et al can justify their 5figs payola for ~same thing, 'looksy, them derps'
asciilifeform: the 'warhol, choose can of coke on left or right' system atwork.
kanzure: anyway, the reason for "infeasibility" claims is because people try to do impossible things; there have not been infeasibility claims regarding genome synthesis or assembly.
asciilifeform: kanzure: the fundamental confusion is actually very similar to the one in your earlier nanotech
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how does it go around you know, polymerase getting destroyed ?
kanzure: my earlier nanotech?
mircea_popescu: iirc it was temperature senstivie.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: thermocycler is just this programmable chiller/oven item. follows a curve.
kanzure: asciilifeform: i rescued a silly open-source nanotech cad program from being deleted and forgotten. however, i did not fund its original development. is this the thing you're tlaing about? https://github.com/kanzure/nanoengineer
mircea_popescu: ahahahaha wait, they switched to termophillic bacteria polymerase ?! god help us.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no i know. the problem with dna amplification with it is that (on tech i recalled) the required enzyme gets periodically destroyed.
mircea_popescu: but apparently, they replaced it with some sea scum.
asciilifeform: kanzure: see the earlier thread re subj, yes
kanzure: you insert the reagents at the start of the reaction, the polymerase is not a permanent component of the machine.
a111: Logged on 2013-12-10 01:49 asciilifeform: if i ever strike lucky, i'll write 'fairycad.' create magical gadgets, just need pixie dust fabricator.
kanzure: "normally the left derives semantic authority from threats of mob violence/witch hunts; what does mircea_popescu have?"
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:30 asciilifeform: kanzure: objective was to economically make (by the kg) a (modified) butyrylcholinesterase
mircea_popescu: you can get bacteria to do anything you want them to ; provided you want them to do something they were going to do already. gotta be a metabolic leftover.
kanzure: no i just fed it to my bioreactor person to see what he would design for me. butyrylcholinesterase proposal will be forthcoming.
phf: ah makes sense, for some reason i thought 3d printers went in the direction of spiroligomers, but hackerspace for which i was mocked is running a CRISPR project in their fridge so this is consistent
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they also 'unlearn' as quickly as 'learned', the extra crud. it dun help'em survive in the welfarestat^H^H^H^H^Hculturevat . so they ditch it
asciilifeform: was major problem for the biowar folx
asciilifeform: ( virulence vanishes )
mircea_popescu: there's no great advantage for "a flying stegosaurus with poisonous spines on every bone!!" sorta videogame items.
mircea_popescu: poison is expensive as all shit.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> it's in the last link, re teh HeLa. << For further reading ask Hussein Bahamas about the trechery of Big Headed Yakub.
mircea_popescu: (speaking of which... if what you want is in the vein of yl-cholinesterase, maybe try engineering spiders ?
asciilifeform: kanzure: reactor was pointedly not the problem. the trait simply wouldn't stick.
asciilifeform: and nobody found out specifically why.
mircea_popescu: or rather : specifically how.
mircea_popescu: the why is above.
kanzure: "".. isnâ€™t the only one working to clone a mammoth. Thereâ€™s also Hwang Woo-sukâ€™s Korean dog-cloning lab, Soaam Technologies [....] He was the one who claimed to clone human cells, but it turns out he had been forcing his students to donate their eggs, and secondly that his clone cells are fraudulent, so heâ€™s trying to resurrect his reputation by being the first to clone ...
kanzure: ...a mammoth.""
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the competition used goats. afaik eventually went broke, 0 result.
asciilifeform misread as 'scam technologies'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im strictly going by the above "woman will do anything you wanrt provided it is what she ewas goping to do anyway". afaik, spiders do actually make variants of it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it also had to be a (mostly)human BchE. because injectable.
kanzure: please clarify why apodicticity is not philosophical wankery
mircea_popescu: that old nonsense chemwar thing.
asciilifeform: otherwise we'dve simply put mongeese through blender.
asciilifeform: (waring co. makes appropriate-size blender.)
mircea_popescu: kanzure calling something "philosophicval wankery" is a political act, no different from saying niggers dun belong in civilised society.
kanzure: is "trying to figure out whether mircea_popescu is just babbling on a blog" also a "political act"?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: funnily enough, BchE is ~the~ preantidote. inject couplea grams, and walk right through vx.
asciilifeform: problem is, only known source -- human blood
asciilifeform: by the tonne.
asciilifeform: for 1 dose.
asciilifeform: (well not quite tonne, iirc 100 litres or so per )
kanzure: if this knowledge only enables you to feel alright about whatever cause passes your fancy for the moment then i would argue you're engaging in a lot of effort for a rather trivial outcome.
mircea_popescu: kanzure the trying to figure it out, no. the expecting i'll justify myself, yes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform funny how that goes.
kanzure: that's sort of rude isn't it. wouldn't it be less total noise to just answer instead of either one of us wasting our time?
mircea_popescu: also funny, if not funnier : apparently nature very much favours the republican outlook. "divide teh people into two groups. blender one for the choline, vx the other."
asciilifeform still doesn't quite grasp what the q was, that kanzure wants answerd
kanzure: i don't really care if it's "justified" by you, i care about correctly understanding
mircea_popescu: kanzure what'd i answer ?
kanzure: you were arguing to me that directed effort is irrelevant (or something) so i'm trying to ascertain what your proposed alternative is
mircea_popescu: i was not arguing at you. we were examining your model together, and it came out unconvincing, and then we were left trying to make something of the pieces.
asciilifeform: kanzure: the alternative is amply illustrated in the logs : effort of actual people, without any trace of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1640325
a111: Logged on 2017-04-07 20:17 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-07#1639964 << one of the (~the~ ?) advantage of tmsr work for intelligent folk is that there isn't a braindamaged/choiceless manager in the loop going "i know it's stupid but it must be done".
mircea_popescu: you're more than welcome to go again, but you'll need a decent definition of effort and some sort of proof it's directable.
mircea_popescu: anyway, in practical terms i am politically powerful because i've successfully protected a bunch of smart people from idiocy for years, and they have the (pewrhaps unwarranted) expectation this may continue.
kanzure: you mean by (perhaps correctly) criticising everything right?
mircea_popescu: because the political power is a super-2 exponential on smarts, whereas cost is a logarithmic on stupidity, it's very easy to be powerful hanging out with smart people. almost as easy as it is to go bankrupt hanging out with many people.
mircea_popescu: kanzure the "by" part is rather open-ended.
kanzure: well fine.
mircea_popescu: there's some work in the log re creating mechanical-mp, but mostly at the lulz stage.
kanzure: i am trying to ascertain what you exercise power for
kanzure: or if you don't.
kanzure: other than blogging :-)
mircea_popescu: what for.
kanzure: it's just how i work, i internalize things
mircea_popescu: power is a misnomer in any case ; it's arche as in greek not power as in latin.
mircea_popescu: and the bad notation makes you go into walls, as per "since it's power it must have goal"
kanzure: i'd settle for "observed tendencies or use of power that would probably fail without such power"
kanzure: you could safely argue it would look like a plot of the sha256 function against a graph, but i would also be surprised to hear that
mircea_popescu: funny you should mention that, there's also a discussion re rng and power in teh logs.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile at the power driving happy club, http://68.media.tumblr.com/a533597cc4b5c9a0d8378a536f495797/tumblr_ntbr97L7LW1tr6tzco1_400.gif
a111: Logged on 2017-07-18 18:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform understand this bit of GT : the knowledge of all the things you don't know thereby constructs a sybil of you.
asciilifeform: re 'if you're modellable, you are a mechanical part, not a power'
asciilifeform: one of the aspects, imho, of serious power, is that it does not present itself in the form of an 'exam' that examgrinder derps can 'study' for an' finesse.
asciilifeform: it's zeta, comes and impales your entire fucking village to make the point that NO, you can't model it.
mircea_popescu: confucius disagrees!
asciilifeform: the inventor of the original usg - yes - quite disagreed.
kanzure: alright so the argument is that to whatever extent there's a modellable aspect, that's a failure mode and not necessarily a preference
asciilifeform: kanzure: kindergarten gametheory
mircea_popescu: actually part of republican doctrine, there's no standard policies in all sorts of shocking places.
mircea_popescu: like you know, what ratings mean for one.
kanzure: so just hoard a bunch of power and don't provide much signal regarding its application or likely application. is this some sort of gmaxwell-level fear of "unintentionally causing others to agree with you, by unethically signaling to them an idea that they shouldn't have had in the first place" bullshit?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703892 < http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-09#1695593
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:32 kanzure: jihan has been quite friendly so far
a111: Logged on 2017-08-09 00:40 asciilifeform: No one else did. Not theymos, not knighmb, not pirate, not silbert, not Jihan Wu. Not satoshi or asciilifeform.
mircea_popescu: kanzure i lean on people all the damned time, what are you talking about.
kanzure: i wouldn't know
mircea_popescu: you're even voiced atm because i did lol.
mircea_popescu: o god with the %20s
kanzure: i have the best filenames
mircea_popescu: anyway, i don't read pdfs, so put it in a pastebin ?
kanzure: bad abstract parse there. it ends half-way through.
mircea_popescu: lol "while this risk can not be avoided entirely... here's how im not giving up".
mircea_popescu: sane person would have stopped there. "this risk can not be avoided ; abandon du travail"
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2017/08/28/bob-lutz-on-why-ford-ousted-mark-fields-adnotated/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - Bob Lutz on Why Ford Ousted Mark Fields, adnotated.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1703932 << ftr you realize out-and-out myostatin inhibition would result in a bad case of blindness if you're lucky. you might grow fucking horns.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 20:43 asciilifeform: kanzure: mike w promised myostatin inhibitor to me in 2007 !!1111 where is it ?!
mircea_popescu: soft, squishy, horns nevertheless.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: d00d had some quite musculatured, and not otherwise mutilated ( as far as anybody could tell ) rat
asciilifeform: but point being, never came remotely close to useful item in man.
mircea_popescu: yeah, and if they grow enough they'll push your eyes ouyt.
asciilifeform: either that, or 9,999 possible other 'i put an f1 engine in my trabant' failure modes.
mircea_popescu: anyway. in my admittedly pedestrian clinical experience, it was NEVER the myokines that limit muscle mass. it's always kidney clearance, lung efficiency and liver capacity for glycogenesis in this order.
asciilifeform: kanzure: re your link, do you know what gosplan was ?
mircea_popescu: ie, when people who are out of shape get the fuck back in shape, it is THESE ORGANS that expand first, and most.
mircea_popescu: which is why the fuck "exercise is healthy" in the first place.
asciilifeform: '... we engage in a project to "drive while we drive": to strategically influence the main factors that will strategically influence the future.'
asciilifeform: how can you read this without barfing, kanzure ?
asciilifeform: at least sov gosplan never rose to the megalomania of 'plan future of all man'
asciilifeform: ( not, at any rate, explicitly )
mircea_popescu: hehehe i was about to say.
mircea_popescu: there was a lot of the nonsense floating about, esp cca 1940s and 50s. back when they belieft.
asciilifeform: nothing, afaik, quite like this.
mircea_popescu: this is always an unfair comparison for the esltards, because all other languages being spoken by man over time have built in ridiculous protectors.
mircea_popescu: english is a doggerel, has nothing in it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: where was the 'game plan' thread
asciilifeform: oh hah mircea_popescu linked it few min ago
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform amusingly, linked in my last. talk about premonitory.
asciilifeform: 'Mouthbreathers living in squalor all over the US are mentally preparing to solve the 3rd world's famine problems. Just in case. You never know when you suddenly become powerful. Fucking Cinderella syndrome, an entire generation of sleeping beauties.'
mircea_popescu: but isn't that what technologee is all about!!!
asciilifeform: the interesting bit is that it wasn't, appears, the generation that played civ, that grew into these
asciilifeform: but the next, that didn't
asciilifeform has theory, that one of the fundamental and incurable psychodysfunctions of the ameritard is the picture, formed in childhood, of 'world of plenty', 'infinite resources', 'as soon said as done', 'just needs to be managed and komyoonitiorganized' etc
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704153 << i can certify i've not used language in trhis manner sicne about 5th grade.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 21:39 kanzure: "and as such they're not only infinite and uncountable, but even undefined" but isn't this what calibration is for. you communicate with people because you are trying to callibrate collective goal behavior shit.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform always how this happens. it wasn't the generatio nthat slept in cow dung under the biting western wind that thought cowboy is tough guy
mircea_popescu: but the next one.
mircea_popescu: nobody thought himself a hero for being at verdun. more like an idiot, really.
asciilifeform: to the wind generation, cowboy is normal d00d
asciilifeform: doing normal things
mircea_popescu: well... normal poor dood.
mircea_popescu: doing what can be done.
mircea_popescu: anyway, amusingly enough that exact outlook, 'world of plenty', 'infinite resources', 'as soon said as done', 'just needs to be managed and komyoonitiorganized' resulted in the panic of 1837.
mircea_popescu: i talked of it a little somewhere, it's very amusingly similar
mircea_popescu: (the systemic shock then was the europeans, not the chinese, taking their gold back home. the us survived that one.)
asciilifeform: 'we'll feed everybody by printing 10bil foodvouchers' is an eternal plague
asciilifeform: the borderline-retarded buy it because retarded; the cynical grifters buy it because 'i'll be first to the trough'
mircea_popescu: at the risk of splitting hairs, that's possibly a different strand of the same coli.
kanzure: 10 billion food vouchers can be printed if you would like to shut them up the hilarious way
kanzure: they could even eat the vouchers if you'd like
mircea_popescu: lol. finally, 3d printing on biological material that matters! USE EXPANDED RICE!
kanzure: oh print the voucher on the rice? i've been doing it wrong i guess.
asciilifeform: the 'we can create 10bil plates of shitburger to go with the vouchers if only we KomyoonityOrganizeStoneSoup correctly' is simply slightly moar elaborate version of same.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform arguably the "world of plenty" "boundless bounty of this is our land" is one kind of nativist ; whereas assignats more of a frenchypoof thing.
mircea_popescu: kanzure yes, the chinese fortune cookie see ? include the blessing with the meal. "by order of our most supreme government, you are obligated and alloweds to eat this"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what's the operative diff ? -- other than where one places the 'world of plenty' hallucination in the present, and other -- in future..?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform now ask me what is the diff between polar and cartesian coord systems.
mircea_popescu: there's a difference.
asciilifeform brb, meat
mircea_popescu can't help but visualize endless expanded rice cakes, painted with the required assignats drawings. sort of like e-stamps, only edible.
mircea_popescu: fucking fabulous idea. make the ink HFCS caramel too.
mircea_popescu: http://i.huffpost.com/gen/3932032/thumbs/o-RICE-CAKE-570.jpg << item's as close to paper as it gets. stores forever...
mircea_popescu: nice and filling...
mircea_popescu: kanzure 188 wpm sorta top speed ? that's pretty impressive.
kanzure: it's a completely useless skill
kanzure: i'm able to keep up with core developers as they babble on about stuff, though https://bitcoincore.org/logs/2016-05-zurich-meeting-notes.html
mircea_popescu: not completely useless, i don't think.
mircea_popescu: o hey, check that out, logs.
kanzure: (these are real-time transcripts. nobody has time to go back and type. i just do it in real-time.)
mircea_popescu: see ? useful enough.
mircea_popescu: so what do you do for a living anyway ?
mircea_popescu: ah that's why he blacklisted you
kanzure: i am honored. (who?)
a111: Logged on 2014-10-27 21:05 los_pantalones: mircea_popescu i can't believe how much $ the ledgerX guys raised
mircea_popescu: kanzure asciilifeform
kanzure: that was one month after i was onboarded
kanzure: so yeah they did not have diligence until i showed up
kanzure: i never asked to be listed there
kanzure: oh yeah, i'm not. ok.
mircea_popescu: wait, you are telling me you are working at company x BECAUSE you work there, not so that you're on the //heres-some%20stock-photos-stolen-from-internets.htmk page ?!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704181 << i'm not much of an engineer ; i don't even own any ikea desk converted into an open thermo-thingee.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 22:14 kanzure: well originally my purpose (that's right i said it) of bringing this up with mircea_popescu was to query his preferences regarding thermonuclear war err i mean eugenics err i mean direct participation in technology development for genome engineering projects
mircea_popescu: seems i'd be uniquely unqualified for teh job.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704183 << they are. resource allocation, including man hours, is not open to all comers ; it is not even open to "community" anything.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 22:15 kanzure: if things are so willy wonka in here that one cannot apply effort to directed intentional behavior then i'm not really sure how to communicate
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-28#1704192 << logically, shouldn't it terminate itself for that reason ?
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 22:21 trinque: yudsy's basillisk does not flow back through time in-order-to bring about itself.
mircea_popescu: maybe that's why alf's ecoli were so uncooperative. basiliskation.
kanzure: so far the only form of 'resource allocation' that i can peg you down for is re: something something 'protection of friendlines from idiocy'
kanzure: and 'attention' maybe.
mircea_popescu: i thought you read the logs.
mircea_popescu: the republic fabricates its own hardware, building towards a complete stack. not to mention its own software, idem.
mircea_popescu: it's a state, like any other. well, better than most, at least in tech terms.
kanzure: i was not aware of this.
mircea_popescu: ever heard of eg phuctor ?
mircea_popescu: aite, so it's this item that factors privkeys. has the whole db of pgp and ssh keys.
mircea_popescu: you can teach yourself lisp by talking to candi_lustt
mircea_popescu: there's all sorta things.
mod6 reads scrollback
mircea_popescu: kanzure ftr, does your pdfparanoia thing also wipe the yellow printer dots ?
kanzure: no just the ip address stuff
kanzure: i do not have a sample of yellow printer dots in academic papers to work from. if you have a sample, i'll be happy to debug that.
mircea_popescu: why not ? woulda saved that chicks bacon, what was her name.
kanzure: so it turns out, i was the reason why she got doxxed
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo do we have the famous pdf unicorn-coconut or whatever took to the inept competition instead of bringing to qntra, resulting in a jail term for her ?
kanzure: i met her in 2010 at a harvard transhumanism conference. i recognized her profile pic (rotated) on a scihub site.
kanzure: and i said so on irc in 2013. and i think i doxxed her and now i kind of feel bad about that.
mircea_popescu: kanzure are you capable of standing up a bot which takes a link to a pdf and responds with a http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/hello/?raw=true link containing the contents ?
mircea_popescu: not exactly what i want. it should work with arbitrary user provided links ; and it should specifically spit out the format required.
mircea_popescu: (most of the heavy lifting consists of OCR, mind you. that's the core of the job.)
kanzure: you'll have to find someone else to do as much
a111: Logged on 2017-08-29 01:02 kanzure: i do not have a sample of yellow printer dots in academic papers to work from. if you have a sample, i'll be happy to debug that.
asciilifeform: ( the dot pattern was reversed long ago, however , is public )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i see the merit in using the actual item though.
asciilifeform: which item ?
asciilifeform: colour laser ? everybody who bought a FG, has a thick wad of yellowdotted printout
kanzure: pdfparanoia strips the "YOUR IP ADDRESS IS 127.0.0.1" from the margins of pdfs.
mircea_popescu: nah wtf was her name
asciilifeform: ( i print'em on old clunker that definitely has them dotz )
kanzure: alexandra elbakyan
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: realitywinner?
mircea_popescu: yes! ty!
mircea_popescu: dumbass usg naming styles.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: chix renamed itself
a111: Logged on 2017-06-06 18:15 BingoBoingo: So the politics of "Reality Winner" is a bottomless lulz spiral.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what diff does that make. still the same dumbass FLUXBABBIT!!!11 nonsense
asciilifeform: it does read quite like an nsalogical compartmentname, dunnit. REALITYWINNER.
asciilifeform: ( somewhere, in another castle, there languishes a DREAMLOSER )
mircea_popescu: yeah, totally another castle.
asciilifeform: kanzure: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-29#1704513 >> see also http://nosuchlabs.com/hardware.html
a111: Logged on 2017-08-29 00:48 mircea_popescu: the republic fabricates its own hardware, building towards a complete stack. not to mention its own software, idem.
kanzure: is this yours. it says mpex.
asciilifeform: kanzure: mpex is mircea_popescu's emporium.
asciilifeform: i expected you knew this.
asciilifeform: srsly?! must be 1st d00d ever to walk in, who did not.
mircea_popescu: refreshing, at that.
asciilifeform: pretty sure this is a historic first.
mircea_popescu: what else did you miss, lessee, the 1k btc berkshire bet ?
asciilifeform: probably also missed the phuctoring
kanzure: i am really, really illiterate. i live in a different world.
mircea_popescu: the lulzarmageddon on something awful, "oh bitcoin is useless" "really ? here's a dork shoving crayons in his ass for bitcoin" "OMFG porn and winning unpopular arguments are now bannable offenses on something awful" ?
asciilifeform: and the demolition of ethertardium
mircea_popescu: there's really a lot.
mircea_popescu: no there was no proof re that.
asciilifeform: probably never yet seen trb, either...
asciilifeform: or v. or ffa. and what elses.
mircea_popescu: possibly isn't aware how gavin lost a head also...
mircea_popescu: aaanyway. ima bbl.
asciilifeform: kanzure: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/phuctored << 1697 and counting rsa keys publicly raped.
asciilifeform: kanzure: as for why you won't read about it in the lugenpress, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-20#1687903 << n00b review
a111: Logged on 2017-07-20 23:21 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: review, http://trilema.com/2015/full-disclosure-4096-rsa-key-in-the-strongset-factored , http://trilema.com/2015/more-factored-rsa-keys-and-assorted-other-considerations , http://trilema.com/2016/psa-hanno-bock-still-a-deceitful-shitbag
asciilifeform bbl, meat
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E0A97C08E2DA96685C3A9BB822E1D127FED0E923BB60549AA1628FB49EAA3688 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1554...7607 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '188.8.131.52 (ssh-rsa key from 184.108.40.206 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cm-58-10-212-17.revip7.asianet.co.th. TH 74)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E0A97C08E2DA96685C3A9BB822E1D127FED0E923BB60549AA1628FB49EAA3688 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1481...2719 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '220.127.116.11 (ssh-rsa key from 18.104.22.168 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cm-58-10-212-17.revip7.asianet.co.th. TH 74)
asciilifeform: !~later tell kanzure http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-29#1704482 << realize, NOT ONE of these imbeciles, nor the idiocies they uttered, has a single thing to do with ACTUAL bitcoin. not the 'core dev' nsa tools, not the dan boneh ( http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2016-july-bitcoin-developers-miners-meeting/dan-boneh ) nsa stooge; not the chinese derps.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-29 00:22 kanzure: i'm able to keep up with core developers as they babble on about stuff, though https://bitcoincore.org/logs/2016-05-zurich-meeting-notes.html
a111: Logged on 2017-07-17 21:24 mircea_popescu: let's approach the easier end of this. the necessary precondition for any fork succieeding on the bitcoin network was set forth last year : http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-29#1704484 << another astonishing horror show. recommended to all dedicated entomologists.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-29 00:22 kanzure: http://diyhpl.us/wiki/transcripts/2016-july-bitcoin-developers-miners-meeting/cali2016/
asciilifeform read both links, 'holy mother of fuck, these people think... all of this matters'
asciilifeform: massive, mind-boggling pile of 'roundtables', 'consensuses', 'preps for hardfork', 'plans for future of bitcoin'
asciilifeform: 'I think we are interested in any and all opportunities to collaborate. We will try to setup a commercial circle. We hope that the Core developers will join. In the afternoon, we can come back after we visit Stanford. We have an hour gap and we can come back here. I have reserved the conference room for the whole day. We can still come back here. Googleplex is not very far from here. It takes 30min to get there or less. We can still
asciilifeform: come back.'
asciilifeform: 'Over the last few days, some Bitcoin developers and miners got together for a social gathering to improve communication, friendship, and to do some California sightseeing. We talked about where bitcoin is and where bitcoin is going. We learned a lot from each other. We also visited Stanford to attend a cryptography talk to learn more about potential improvements for Bitcoin, as well as the Google campus to give a presentation and ta
asciilifeform: lk about Bitcoin. We had many informal discussions amongst ourselves about topics such as mining decentralization, evolution of the Bitcoin protocol, safety improvements and progress for both soft- and hard-forks...' didjaknow!!
asciilifeform: 'safety improvements' didjaknow !
kanzure: ya the miners were trying to propose a centralized organization.
asciilifeform: y'mean legitimize the existing central cartel.
kanzure: no i mean coercing me into saying things that i don't believe
asciilifeform: kanzure: what, specifically ? ( and... why ? )
kanzure: you're asking me why miners would want a central organization to control bitcoin....?
asciilifeform: what they 'coercing me into saying things that i don't believe' and why.
kanzure: e.g. vouch for various hard-forks
mircea_popescu: pretty lulzy.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform remember the days when "teh cartel didn't exist" ?
mircea_popescu: "'I think his followers actually kind of excommunicated him after he lost their bitcoins." as opposed to "he actually blew up the early feelers of teh cartel a year ago, we're STILL butthurt about it".
kanzure: block content is actually not sufficient. even if you include a nonce (like a private key) plus the previous block content, you don't actually get what you need there in the sha3 proposal.
kanzure: one way i was thinking was something like, move the transaction merkle root out of the blockheader, eliminate the block header, full transaction list must be transmitted in order to verify PoW. unfortunately gmaxwell broke this in 3 seconds (because midstate).
asciilifeform: kanzure: keccak dun have midstates.
asciilifeform: at any rate, kanzure , the latest word on subj was http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-01#1620661 thread.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-01 19:32 asciilifeform: ooook try this on for size : suppose fixed-width TX (as discussed earlier.) T(N) is the Nth tx, T(0) is the first tx in genesis block, etc. Tmax is the last tx in the currentheightblock.
kanzure: can you riterate the value of proving they have a copy of the blockchain. what you really need is a proof that everyone else has a copy of the blockchain (e.g. all utxo owners sign the damn content).
asciilifeform: i must invoke babbage here,
asciilifeform: 'i cannot rightfully apprehend the confusion of ideas that could lead to such a question'
kanzure: so, miners having a copy of an invalid blockchain is sort of irrelevant
asciilifeform: mno, it ain't.
kanzure: they can have many invalid things, as long as they choose to broadcast the valid thing
asciilifeform: 'can't use bitcoin PERIOD' unless you have a proper, honest motherfucking node, with ALL the blocks' is the Right Thing.
asciilifeform: no 'prunings', no 'simplified' nonsense.
asciilifeform: no 'i can't believe it's not fullblockchain' idiocy.
kanzure: so, i had a proposal a while back where i pushed that question to the edges instead of to the miners; e.g. a bitcoin address scheme where it requires interactive querying to determine whether the recipient is actually running a node (because why would you send coins to a monkey that isn't running the bitcoin protocol).
asciilifeform: full. history. of. the. world. -- or you can't play.
asciilifeform: kanzure: if it's cheaply outsourceable, it proves shit.
kanzure: well, i agree, however you can include a private key in the scheme, and if the user is outsourcing their private key they are dumb anyway
asciilifeform: private key?!
kanzure: yea you can prove that they are hashing a value of blocchain content (or doing rule validation) with the presence of a secret nonce, etc.
asciilifeform: known to whom ?
asciilifeform: flesh this out
kanzure: i think the most mature construction was one that was solely about utxo set and/or blockchain content, not rule validation (besides: they could be running a fake client that solely does these rule validation protocols or whatever, and then they don't actually run a node in the end)
asciilifeform: 'utxo set' is of the heathens.
mircea_popescu: kanzure you can't put that sort of burden on key generation. he has a point with the babbage quote, you're trying to put contraryt things in the same box.
asciilifeform: ('utxo set' is a broken concept, thoroughly and to the bone : it implies that it is somehow acceptable to forget the history of all coin, i.e. the thing that proves that EVERY bitcent actually came from blockrewards as-specified, and not from magicking into existence a la fiatola )
asciilifeform: !#s pruning
asciilifeform: ^ see also
asciilifeform: NOTHING is 'prunable' in bitcoin.
asciilifeform: or ever will be.
asciilifeform: if you 'pruned', you ain't running bitcoin.
asciilifeform: yer running bernankecoin.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something like pubkey = hash(hash(privkey+proofstring) . privkey). you publish the pubkey AND the hash(privkey+proofstring) component. then when spending they check that indeed the proofstring component was correct.
mircea_popescu: this is rank nonsense, for the record.
asciilifeform: (today, or 100yrs from now, when blockchain is petabyte. NO reprieve.)
mircea_popescu: even without going into any discussion re what is a "proper" proofstring.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: we had this thread. if 'pruning' is a thing -- monetary mass is no longer demonstrably capped.
mircea_popescu: we're discussing different things.
asciilifeform: nobody's ever conceived of a finesse around this, and i don't expect that anyone will.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which different thing
mircea_popescu: you are discussing the composition of said proofstring ; i was giving the ur-example of what he's talking about, "make USERS prove they have the blockchain, not miners".
asciilifeform: ftr i dun see why not to make users also demonstrate possession of actual blockchain.
asciilifeform: ( yer sig gets hashed and you get to luby in 3 tx from history... )
mircea_popescu: for one thing because i want to be able to spend by hand.
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz, * Topic for ##hplusroadmap is: biohacking, nootropics, transhumanism, open hardware | sponsored by lobsters everywhere, banned by the Federal Death Administration (5 times)
asciilifeform: how, with telegraph key?!
mircea_popescu: user pays for tx via fee. that's 100% all he has to do. if he should pay more, let the fee be more. there's not going to be any tack-ons in kind, it's a monetary system not fucking 1800s serfdom.
asciilifeform: somebody without a node is not a user, but a barnacle.
mircea_popescu: the problem is not one of proof, here, and it is imperial nonsensemachine to misrepresent it in terms of proof.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: funnily enough, BchE is ~the~ preantidote. inject couplea grams, and walk right through vx. << AHA, an innovation to revolutionize pest control!
mircea_popescu: the problem is that the money users pay is pocketed by the miners for mining ; whereas it should be pocketed by miners + nodes for mining + noding.
mircea_popescu: as oft discussed, the current system excists as does because satoshi was a lazy thinker.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform someone with privkeys is someone.
mircea_popescu: it is at his pleasure that nodes and miners labour.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:22 mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
kanzure: your interweb is broken
asciilifeform: loads here
mircea_popescu: o look at that, 3.5k long file.
mircea_popescu: who designs these things.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the root is just shockingly lengthy.
asciilifeform: '15:49 < jrayhawk> i feel like popescu is what happens when you confuse postmodernism with intellectualism and then read too much alt-right literature'
asciilifeform: turns out goats really do think 'hey, it moves, has legs, IS ANOTHER GOAT'
mircea_popescu: wtf is alt-right literature for my curiosity ? not ann raynd and such i hope ?
mircea_popescu: oh that's literature now ? god help us.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you run a grep on the site over my name or what
asciilifeform: just snarfed lastlog
asciilifeform: was fulla pastes
asciilifeform: kanzure: if it weren't clear, 'nuke with materials of electronics' means '0 fissiles'
asciilifeform: as in, 0 grams of anything you can't sit down and order right now for with 0 questions asked.
BingoBoingo: <kanzure> alright so the argument is that to whatever extent there's a modellable aspect, that's a failure mode and not necessarily a preference << Consider http://trilema.com/2011/arta-pedepsirii/
asciilifeform is astonished at the elaborate dance of 'we dun get it' in $linked
mircea_popescu: hey, for every single articulation there's multiple positions, and the shit we dabble in is many articulations long. combinatorial explody.
mircea_popescu: so basically, this is a sort of republic-like, some people got together trying to do [what their idea of] good is. not nearly as dead as cat-v.org thing for instance.
asciilifeform: '16:38 < jrayhawk> he needs verifiable/falsifiable examples, but i think i have already stopped caring' << winner
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: d00d had some quite musculatured, and not otherwise mutilated ( as far as anybody could tell ) rat << And time + selective breeding some well built bulls in Belgium
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: so far in my reading all i see is http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1699409 .
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 20:26 asciilifeform: 'whaddayamean you won't eat from the trough' 'not a swine? everybody's a swine, and you're an elitist swine' etc
mircea_popescu: eh. think of it this way, if people didn't have barriers at all they'd be goo.
mircea_popescu: not even gray. pink goo.
asciilifeform: they spread leg^H^H^Hmembrane for thiel/yudkowsky/etc al on command tho
asciilifeform: such barrier.
mircea_popescu: every membrane will have a pore. it's only natural. dja know the joke with the horny bear ?
asciilifeform: 18:39 < fenn> it doesnâ€™t pass the self check and was probably broken while uploaded.
asciilifeform: 18:39 < fenn> therefore probably nothing really happened."
asciilifeform: didjaknow, mircea_popescu !
asciilifeform: ( re phuctor, apparently )
mircea_popescu: hm ?
kanzure: if operatig the yudkowsy parody twitter account for five years is insufficient to convince you that i absolutely hate the person, then what would?
asciilifeform: 18:40 < yashgaroth> ah, that's a lot of people to dedicate to a dumb idea << usg.dtra, unclass. to the tune of couplea decamil.
asciilifeform: public record.
mircea_popescu: kanzure conviction is a rare material ; take it easy.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the problem with the current crop of kids is that they're so used to have OTHERS pick their reading materials for them.
mircea_popescu: be it in school, on reddit, whatever. as a result, have deeply nfi about relatively fundamental, basic stuff, and WAY too much familiarity with relatively irrelevant fringe extensions of minor alt-theories in obscure fields.
asciilifeform: 18:29 < kanzure> yeah i don't know anymore
asciilifeform: 18:29 < kanzure> buncha noise
asciilifeform: why did we voice d00d again..?
kanzure: hash functions are supposed to look like noise you dolt
asciilifeform: 17:17 < kanzure> could the atmosphere be flooded with gas + nutrients sufficient to feed a person if lungs weren't awful
mircea_popescu: ie, "why do you know so much about string theory ?" "because im on this biker forum and this guy steve keeps posting articles about it" "yes but... it's neither that important nor interesting" "i dunno"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform cuz we're patient and tolerant and i have a houseful of teenagers, mr grouch.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo do we have the famous pdf unicorn-coconut or whatever took to the inept competition instead of bringing to qntra, resulting in a jail term for her ? << http://qntra.net/2017/06/reality-winner-arrested-for-leaking-to-omidyar-and-greenwalds-fake-qntra/
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo aha! it's like mp-berylium that thing, totally reflects my memory rays.
kanzure: claiming that it's not supposed to look like noise (explicitly after saying that was your goal) is just insane
kanzure: well you didn't say it; but let's stick to the deriving-from-authority concept eh?
mircea_popescu: kanzure fluid respiration does happen, and has happened since the 70s. it's not even that costly, biologically. lung NUTRITION however is impossibru.
mircea_popescu: hydration is prolly going to emphysema-kill you in weeks at the most. sorta in-between
kanzure: yeah i don't think existing lungs would be a good thing to subject to that. i haven't given it much thought.
mircea_popescu: but ftr, lungs aren't awful. especially human lungs are jewels imo.
mircea_popescu: i dunno if you ever had the opportunity to see lung tissue under good magnification, but it's a wonder.
kanzure: "gas everyone with food" just seemed like an appealing thing to momentarily speculat eabout.
asciilifeform: kanzure: i must've missed something : hash functions ?
kanzure: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu seems to be better at reading logs than you :-)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in summary, it's impossible to make sense of the leaves of a merkle tree that you don't have the root for, is what he's saying.
kanzure: mircea_popescu: so do you just claim a monopoly on discipline or what
mircea_popescu: kanzure not at all.
kanzure: this was re: the power conversation
mircea_popescu: i don't even claim to be particularly disciplined.
asciilifeform: merkletree in bitcoin is a misfeature.
mircea_popescu: i used the term metaphorically. the convo sounds like noise to you because you don't accept/have the priors. which priors he'd propose are a different authority structure.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was not able to discern these folx's priors -- other than 'we suck thiel's cock on command, like every good redditpilltaker'
kanzure: yes i understand it's merely a metaphor; i think asciilifeform did too.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno, i didn't get very far in.
kanzure: asciilifeform: the stuff about hash functions was re: what exercise of power does mircea_popescu historically engage in. and then you quoted things from the logs. it wasn't that long ago.
kanzure: and then you come to me and argue that you guys aren't meant to look like noise....?
asciilifeform: kanzure: didja read http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, re lungs, as im a fan apparently : gas exchange happens through a wonderful bevy of yet poorly understood fluid/fluid phenomena. there's some true space tech going on in there.
asciilifeform: i particular the sentence containing ' i will sink any ...'
asciilifeform: *in particular
kanzure: asciilifeform: ah you mean that is one such example. fine.
asciilifeform: !#s missile crisis
mircea_popescu: kanzure i'll tell you, i read the log every day, first thing, chiefly because it's the higherst snr item i know of. so not really noisy, no.
kanzure: i don't mean the log i just mean your goals and behavior
mircea_popescu: i actually dun have goals. if you measure an absence you'll get noise definitionally, what else.
kanzure: that could explain it
kanzure: so you are a leaf riding some gust of wind. fine.
mircea_popescu: lol check it out, "slavery" manipulation. here, let's resolve this problem : http://trilema.com/2010/nsfw-mosu-cu-joarda/ << meet girl on the left ; girl on the right.
mircea_popescu: there's plenty more.
mircea_popescu: there's no semantic manipulation, i mean it quite literally. when i say chains i mean chains ; when i say whips i mean whips.
mircea_popescu: <kanzure> so you are a leaf riding some gust of wind. fine. << http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-01#1575987
a111: Logged on 2016-12-01 20:37 mircea_popescu: A student told his friend, "My teacher has amazing powers. He moves a pen in the air and characters appear on a piece of paper held on the other side of the river. What does your master do?" His friend replied "My great master follows Zen. When he is hungry, he eats and when he is tired he sleeps."
kanzure: alright so you're an instructor... just like 400 million other idiots.
kanzure: (actually it's not that bad. there's probably less than 400 million of them.)
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-29#1704721 << recall gabriel_laddel ? who slept through 'boring old' newton's laws, but is 'expert' on, what was it, string derpery, etc
a111: Logged on 2017-08-29 03:28 mircea_popescu: be it in school, on reddit, whatever. as a result, have deeply nfi about relatively fundamental, basic stuff, and WAY too much familiarity with relatively irrelevant fringe extensions of minor alt-theories in obscure fields.
asciilifeform: pestilential, this.
mircea_popescu: not specifically. but it's common, i see it lots.