mike_c: oh, hm, it did go up the last couple days. good time to sell!
mircea_popescu: iirc the imaginary number was always ~600 bux.
mircea_popescu: let me know if you manage to actually get anything for them, i've yet to meet someone who has.
mike_c: oh, yeah, I did.
mircea_popescu: o ?
mircea_popescu: wanna do that as a service ?
mircea_popescu: tell me ?
mike_c: well, now that I'm thinking about it, not sure how that would work as a service. Because I had to use some assumed virus ridden POS BCH wallet. So I swept out a BTC wallet, then imported the address keys into the assumed virus wallet for BCH
mike_c: that actually worked, and then I sold it.
mircea_popescu: and then you got bitcoin back out ?
mike_c: I did. I was dumbfounded.
mike_c: but you know, all I risked was some time.
mircea_popescu: so you would do it as "send me 1 btc, i will send back 1.1 btc depending on market"
mike_c: but I would need the keys to wherever that 1 btc was pre-fork
mircea_popescu: ah so it's "send me the keys to pre-fork addresses, and i'll return btc" ?
mircea_popescu: "whether spent or not on main chain" ?
mike_c: and assume that virus ridden wallet will attempt to clean out that BTC address
mike_c: right, if it was moved post-fork, doesn't matter
mircea_popescu: well so this seems like it is a very credible service, makie a website
mircea_popescu: "send me your keys to SPENT btc addresses, i will send you back some btc"
mircea_popescu: free money website as it were.
mircea_popescu: charge a coupla percents or w/e.
mike_c: this is a good idea. I'll have to see if I can make the process less manual.
mircea_popescu: in principle there's you know, 100mn dollars worth of free money sittibng on ground, if you get 1% of that you really don't need a job.
mircea_popescu: (of course in reality there isn't, but w/e, not the worst business idea i ever heard.)
mike_c: well, there's only as much money as the order book is deep
mircea_popescu: but the order book for average start-up is 0 deep.
mike_c: currently i could sell 500 BCH(bcc? whatever) for a bit over 50 btc. price has run up last couple of days.
mircea_popescu: bit of a time bomb, as i'm sure these will pop up. first mover advantage i guess.
mircea_popescu: anyway, cheap source of retweets/likes/wjhatever such social media crapital.
mike_c: well sure, but who gives a shit about social media. it doesn't have any btc.
mircea_popescu: (though traditionally the way "bitcoin doubler" scams work is that they pay off initially. and i don't expect this "bitcoin cash market" thing is anything else, however it may be interpreted by the retard crowd)
mircea_popescu: mike_c well, social media has tits. though usually of the useless variety.
mike_c: there's a decently deep book. takes 4500 BCH to get down to 6% right now.
mike_c: I don't think the market will last long enough for automated service to be worth it, but I'll turn the cranks if anyone wants me to clean out some spent keys.
mike_c: Reasonably manual process, so there would be a reasonable fee, but it's free money if you're not going to do it yourself.
mike_c: ping me if interested.
mircea_popescu: can you be specific ?
mike_c: Sure - given keys, I will sell BCH quickly - not too much regard for trying to optimize yield, without being entirely stupid about it. I'll keep.. 10% and give other party 90%. My fee will be minimum 0.5 btc and maximum 10 btc.
mike_c: so given spent address that used to have 50 btc, I sell the BCH, key owner gets free 4.5 btc. not too shabby.
mircea_popescu: provided owner can't be arsed to dih
mike_c: right. or hire someone else cheaper.
mike_c: is anybody working those? I'd be interested in contributing.
mircea_popescu: nobody specifically.
trinque: "standard bot" I published what, a year or so ago?
mike_c: published where?
mircea_popescu: should i have said "everyone" ?
trinque: naw, just reading the thing.
trinque: see the antecessor for something that doesn't have opinions re: db
mircea_popescu: a year ago precisely!
mike_c: nice, thanks.
trinque cranking moar on the paybot presently, and this weekend.
mircea_popescu: 6 confirms and errything ?
mike_c: far more by now.
trinque: dunno if I welcomed mike_c back, so, wb!
mike_c: I used this pile of shit for wallet - installed on VM, you should 100% assume this is a virus ridden piece of shit. http://www.electroncash.org/
mike_c: but it worked.
mike_c: thanks trinque!
mike_c: all in all it was an experience that felt like taking a shower in sewage.
mircea_popescu: when did they fork again, jun 25th was it ?
mike_c: no, much later.
mike_c: maybe aug 1
mircea_popescu: pretty sure it was pre aug
mircea_popescu: hm maybe you're right, was aug 1st after all.
Birdman: hey mike_c is this a fun project for you or somethin? if you can be bothered theres some improvements i would ask for to narrow down what im looking for in that script, though im not trying to overstep any boundaries here.
mike_c: it's about bedtime for me. feel free to paste in a wish list. if it's quick I'll knock it out for you over the weekend.
Birdman: thank ya
Birdman: !~later tell mike_c http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/WyOfQ/?raw=true
jhvh1: Birdman: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: AHA, mike_c returns and already has a new gig
mircea_popescu: ahahaha check out undata!
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in perky tits and highschool parties, http://68.media.tumblr.com/cf594819917bbecc277724e4e324744c/tumblr_nyud24EYQS1v0jntgo1_1280.jpg
trinque: ah yeah, I'm equal parts proud and "kid, I'll finish you if we crash and I live"
trinque: he did great.
mircea_popescu: eh it doesn't look big enough to crash
trinque: thing squeaked like a motel bed
mircea_popescu: do they have 3 hour "love hotels" there ?
mircea_popescu: you should see those things.
trinque: ones where the rate's what, 40-50/day anyway
trinque: squeaky bed, that sorta indoor/outdoor carpet
mircea_popescu: bout 8-12 bux, something like that.
mircea_popescu: girl 20-30 extra.
a111: Logged on 2016-10-12 01:57 mircea_popescu: back when their bulls weren't all mechanical yet.
trinque: tomorrow we've got Black Lives Matter (TM) marching past my apartment for, whatever it is they tweeted about last
trinque: did the pantsuit mayor last time, wasn't enough, now nigger mayor who will seriously review serious matters and things.
trinque: I have yet to decide whether being elsewhere, or watching the bullets fly will be more enjoyable.
mircea_popescu: hard call.
asciilifeform: zoolag @ 206640 an' syncing happily on
asciilifeform: !~later tell mike_c http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-19#1700623 << why was it necessary to use closed turd client ? ( what's the actual diff in the lolfork anyway ? the 2mb thing ? could exist as a lulzpatch for trb, even, in principle )
a111: Logged on 2017-08-19 04:09 mike_c: and assume that virus ridden wallet will attempt to clean out that BTC address
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: that he couldn't be arsed to read/write, i expect
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-18#1699937 << http://trilema.com/2015/a-lingering-suspicion/ found meanwhile.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-18 03:55 mircea_popescu: i can't find the trilema article illustration with the three girls under cold water but inserted by reference.
mircea_popescu: total crackwhore hips.
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, i wonder how many people decided to have their kid for the eclypse. maybe that way it'll come out speshul ?
shinohai: But exactly the type of girl you get here at the "siesta rate" btcbase.org/log/2017-08-19#1700693
mircea_popescu: ah, i believe.
shinohai: She's no good if she refuses to snort a line of crystal meth from an enlarged penis, you see.
mircea_popescu: o jesus god
mircea_popescu: they snort meth now ?!
mircea_popescu: in other random lulz : romania closed 2016 as the strongest economy in the eu. 1.3% drop in inflation, <1% budget deficit, 38.5% debt to gdp. stable local currency yoy.
mircea_popescu: this is ahead of sweden (1% inflation champs), the uk (5% deficit and 90% debt to gdp LOL), denmark, you name it.
mircea_popescu: and the uk specifically is headed for a shitter of epic proportions. they've to retool, but have no space to borrow to support capital costs and no strength in the labour market.
asciilifeform: brits ~make~ something?!
mircea_popescu: now or generally ?
asciilifeform: what do they make ?
mircea_popescu: now they make houses for russians to buy, to have them stolen away. the switch to chinese didn't take.
mircea_popescu: historically they were strong in engines, and other ind equipment.
asciilifeform: rolls royce aha
mircea_popescu: well, depends how historically. even more historically they were strong in textiles.
asciilifeform: those may as well have been different brits. like ancient egyptians vs current
mircea_popescu: they still export half a trillion worth of mostly software and crap (1/3 balance deficit)
asciilifeform: the usa business model lol
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here, you'll lulz : largest 2016 export was 42bn worth of gold.
asciilifeform: that's an export ?!
mircea_popescu: "banking sector". london's fucked.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you get money it is an export, yes.
asciilifeform: sofa is then fuel
mircea_popescu: and see, here's the true lulz picture : they exported 40bn worth of automotives. which looks like a something
mircea_popescu: EXCEPT they also imported 50bn worth of same.
mircea_popescu: and the 40bn dun exist without the 50bn. you know how that goes, it's a "high paying bay area job"
asciilifeform: like petro in texas
mircea_popescu: bigger problem sitll, their major partners are the us.
mircea_popescu: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/09/uk-economy-take-long-painful-look-research-development << surprisingly decent summary article.
mircea_popescu: the thing is, places like italy or spain have the natural-born whores to compensate, two or more to the household.
mircea_popescu: who would pay to fuck a british bag is anyone's guess.
mircea_popescu: in other words, there's no greek stoppers for britain, once it goes it goes.
mircea_popescu: (and , of course, they're making the eternal soviet mistake, spending 5bn on "research", except in healthcare, ai, batteries, self-driving vehicles, satellites etc. ie, trying to spend money to rewrite history with themselve in the picture. if you have a fucking clue you never invest in R&D in "hot" shit)
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in school, http://68.media.tumblr.com/f89825cd4887bd18a7cd8d9dc8242b32/tumblr_nziazkL24E1ucvu8po1_400.gif
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2DF7A3702116E0E30B47DFE5B6E3E9893FF8379DFD4DC6734620CDF4083DB555 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1156...8807 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '126.96.36.199 (ssh-rsa key from 188.8.131.52 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cpe-66-8-171-191.hawaii.res.rr.com. US HI)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2DF7A3702116E0E30B47DFE5B6E3E9893FF8379DFD4DC6734620CDF4083DB555 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1181...2433 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '184.108.40.206 (ssh-rsa key from 220.127.116.11 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (cpe-66-8-171-191.hawaii.res.rr.com. US HI)
mircea_popescu: aaand in other lulz, teh metizos heard of things "many people know" and also have opinions on matters : http://www.nacion.com/opinion/columnistas/Mad-Dog-Trump_0_1652634727.html
mircea_popescu: (their own, original, honestly now!)
asciilifeform: grupos neonazis, antisemitas y racistas lol
mircea_popescu: the most precious item is when cardbord-person makes evaluations as to the future!
asciilifeform: reads exactly like the local cardboard
mircea_popescu: yes, but local has the excuse of local. it's one thing to be rice, or obama, the system pays. but being nemtsov ?
mircea_popescu: infanta of spain does have a sucky job in a sucky society, but at least she gets the fucking pearls. it makes some limited sense.
mircea_popescu: what's malinche get ? squaw candy ?
asciilifeform: ( every usg-sucking orc has this fantasy, that if he pens one of these just-so, chopper transport will materialize and take him to harvaryaleton and obummer will personally pin on him iron cross with oak leaves and award mcmansion )
asciilifeform: !!up r0nin-
deedbot: r0nin- voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: persistent fella, lesee what he has?
r0nin-: <+mircea_popescu> in other random lulz : romania closed 2016 as the strongest economy in the eu. 1.3% drop in inflation, <1% budget deficit, 38.5% debt to gdp. stable local currency yoy.
r0nin-: <+mircea_popescu> this is ahead of sweden (1% inflation champs), the uk (5% deficit and 90% debt to gdp LOL), denmark, you name it.
r0nin-: <+mircea_popescu> and the uk specifically is headed for a shitter of epic proportions. they've to retool, but have no space to borrow to support capital costs and no strength in the labour market.
r0nin-: youve got that backwards
mircea_popescu: you know you can just quote by link reference.
r0nin-: higher deficits = higher economic growth.
mircea_popescu: uh. how do you figure ?
r0nin-: well think about it
mircea_popescu: i am.
mod6: this is trolling, no?
r0nin-: on national accounting
r0nin-: government deficits = private economy savings
r0nin-: to the penny
mircea_popescu: yes, except in china not in the uk.
r0nin-: yes in uk.
mircea_popescu: lol get out.
r0nin-: the government is not a household
r0nin-: in a fiat regime.
mircea_popescu: uk deficit is powered by a huge trade imbalance, not some sort of local savings.
mircea_popescu: yes. that means the value seeps out of the country.
r0nin-: the Uk has to run a budget deficit to add the money that is seeping out of the country
r0nin-: if they dont run it the economy contracts
mircea_popescu: mno. the uk adds money to compensate for THE VALUE seeping out of the country.
r0nin-: no the value is not seeping out of the country
r0nin-: its being added
r0nin-: EU products go to UK
r0nin-: GBP go out
r0nin-: whats the cost to produce GBP?
r0nin-: wahts the cost to produce EU products? a fucking lot.
mircea_popescu: understand this ? at first there's 100 pounds of goods and 100 pounds sterling. then the uktards want to live above their means, so some bezzle is printed up, say a further 20 sterling. then the trade deficit starts, and in the next step there's 80 pounds worth of goods and 100 pounds sterling in the country. discounting the pound sterling from the original 1 to .8.
r0nin-: that why US has a high consumption level despite producing nothing, while germany everyone is poor
mircea_popescu: this is ridoinculous.
r0nin-: look UK has a trade deficit.
r0nin-: that means more products enter then leave
r0nin-: they pay for their trade deficit with their own currency
r0nin-: so the countries that run a trade surplus with the UK
r0nin-: have the GBP now.
mircea_popescu: it's not that it has it. it's that it went from "empire" to "minor province" through maintaining a trade deficit. EXACTLY in the manner spain went from world's empire to minor province, two centuries earlier, through maintaining a trade deficit.
r0nin-: whats it the COST to produce a pound?
mircea_popescu: so what if it got all the aztec gold, if all of it ended up with the dutch.
r0nin-: yea but the products didnt
mircea_popescu: of course they did. that's why uk has no further industrial base, cuz they did.
r0nin-: the UK has a higher standard of living becuase of the trade deficit the same way the US does
r0nin-: the UK has no industrial base becuase they didnt care about it
r0nin-: they get subsidized by outside manufacturers
mircea_popescu: this notion that what you're exporting in a trade deficit situation is "the pound", ie, bezzle, is false. what you're exporting is always the value, bezzle always stays at home.
r0nin-: the UK is exporting a financial claim against it
r0nin-: its IMPORTING goods and services
mircea_popescu: you are very naive ; moreover very impudent to go with it.
r0nin-: the US is the same
r0nin-: tahts why you go to US and see everyone in new BMWs
r0nin-: but you go to germany and everyones in old ass shit
trinque: r0nin-: come over; I'll take you on a tour
mircea_popescu: dude... when the fuck were you last in the us.
r0nin-: they export their surplus value
asciilifeform: r0nin-: ever been to usa ?
r0nin-: i was in miami last year
mircea_popescu: lmao. why is it that the orcs always end up in miami ?
r0nin-: obviously im a bit exagerating
r0nin-: the point is the US sends dollars which the world saves in
mircea_popescu: it's incredible, that place, the official capitol of the spanish main, every monkey from argentina to panama worships miami.
r0nin-: and in return recieves actual wealth
trinque: mircea_popescu: they wanna suck the tip of US cock?
r0nin-: haha true mircea
mircea_popescu: it literally is the capital of a large, bn-strong spanish gypo world.
r0nin-: if you have a trade deficit the governmetn has to run a budget deficit
r0nin-: or else the economy contracts
trinque: r0nin-: you've repeated that twice now, as though quoting your bible.
mircea_popescu: r0nin- i dun think you're qualified to discuss these matters.
r0nin-: budget deficits add new money to the economy
r0nin-: mircea think about it
r0nin-: UK runs a trade deficit with the EU that means EU is 'working' for the UK
r0nin-: they are sending them actual goods/services
r0nin-: in return for what? claims on nothing.
asciilifeform: r0nin-: and kiting cheques 'adds money' to household budget..?
r0nin-: the government budget isnt a household
mircea_popescu: "no but it's not a household!!"
r0nin-: because a household cannot issue its own currency
r0nin-: its a 'user'
mircea_popescu: it's fucking magic, he read it in the polish version of the new york times. THINK ABOUT IT!!!!
r0nin-: the private sector is always a net saver
asciilifeform: r0nin-: zimbabwe issued trillion-dollar notes -- why not world power ?
r0nin-: the government provides the financial instrument the private sector saves in.
mircea_popescu: r0nin- look, this "deductively emplaced" government you keep thinking of doesn't exist irl.
r0nin-: zimbabwe gave away 80% of its productive farms
r0nin-: to useless individuals
r0nin-: the production collapsed
r0nin-: thats why you had hyper inflation
trinque: are you high? you're bouncing *all over*
mircea_popescu: r0nin- stop fucking typing three words to the line. what are you, some kind of idiot ?
r0nin-: hyper inflation is always a result of a sudden production shock
r0nin-: sorry mircea
r0nin-: every single assclown brings up zimbabwe or weimer as their lame example of 'hyperinflation' without every understanding what happened there
mircea_popescu: this is high art on the level of the holy tonsilectomy.
r0nin-: money printing occurs AFTER the inflation started, not before it.
r0nin-: prices go up, the economy requires more money to pay it, and its a cycle
r0nin-: higher interest rates = higher inflation.
mircea_popescu: let's try and get some basics welded down. do you understand "inflation" is the phenomenon of mismatched currency and goods ?
r0nin-: thats why all the tards got it totally wrong with the 'dollar collapse'
r0nin-: yes mircea.
mircea_popescu: ok. so then : when you run a trade deficit, you are NOT exporting currency and importing goods..
r0nin-: yes you are.
mircea_popescu: you are exporting goods and importing goods.
r0nin-: in the case of the Uk and US you are
r0nin-: lol what goods is the Uk exporting?
mircea_popescu: this leaves you with the unbacked currency, and it becomes more and more unbacked as the trade deficit progresses.
r0nin-: no fiat currency is backed by anything.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-19 15:30 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here, you'll lulz : largest 2016 export was 42bn worth of gold.
r0nin-: its entirely based on the issuers promise to take it back from you in payment of taxes
mircea_popescu: dja understand this ? the "not household" household of uk just sold its wedding ring and buttplug.
r0nin-: mircea: the UK imports way more goods/services from the world then it 'exports
mircea_popescu: r0nin- china doesn't pay fucking taxes to the uk. you'll take it back in exchange for fucking gibraltar is what you'll do.
r0nin-: china is inccuring massive costs by exporting
mircea_popescu: r0nin- and my slavegirls eat more than they shit. this makes their ass mine. not the other fucking way around
r0nin-: pollution, sick labor force etc.
mircea_popescu: because in any disagreement of oppinion, he with the trade balance wins.
r0nin-: export is a COST.
r0nin-: the entire premise of a country is to minimize costs and maximize gains, so send as little as possible while importing as much as possible
r0nin-: italians understood this best with 5000euro purses.
r0nin-: mircea: the UK does not have a shortage of goods on shelves for plebs to buy. it may have problems with income distribution.
mircea_popescu: countries run by 12 year old girls, and then they wonder why a) there's no further demand for white males and b) the cuckening.
mircea_popescu: r0nin- it does. for instance -- housing.
mircea_popescu: worst fucking shithole in all of europe, as far as that's concerned.
r0nin-: well i agree the place is miserable
r0nin-: but it was always a shithole throughout the last 500 years.
mircea_popescu: even 1960s soviets had better houses. how about that for "Shelves".
r0nin-: 19th century london was one massive slum
mircea_popescu: mno, actually, before hitler quashed it it was doing ok-ish.
r0nin-: the first of its kind worldwide
r0nin-: no it wasnt. all the aristocrats were completely broke from jewish loans taken out in the 19th century in order to pretend they are like the romans
r0nin-: hence all the villas littered on the countryside
mircea_popescu: was doing a fuckload better before the introduction of the telegraph empowered the englishtarded concentration of administration. somehow they newver learned anything out of the america defeat.
r0nin-: churchhill was so broke he literally sent family members to america to beg for money for appearances sake
mircea_popescu: but anyway, back when "english" essentially meant dutch, it was doing just fine.
r0nin-: this is one of the best books about england at the time you are referencing
r0nin-: churchhills family was indebted for the last 120 years
mircea_popescu: why does this matter ?
r0nin-: because the british empire that you so praise was nothing more than a common understanding of 2 groups
r0nin-: english aristocracy and jewish finance
mircea_popescu: so ?
r0nin-: and it ended in disaster.
r0nin-: consequences to which we are living in today
mircea_popescu: well, they misjudged hitler and he frucked them. this was ~common at the time.
r0nin-: britian dragged the dumb german kaiser into WW1 because the german industrial base had surpassed anything england could have imagined and he began building a navy
mircea_popescu: hey, this much we agree on.
r0nin-: because as you correctly pointed out earlier, they dont protect their industries
r0nin-: germans did
mircea_popescu: they still do. for all that poverty, they actually got the 4th reich going over there.
r0nin-: UK leaving the EU will lead to a dramatic decline in the standard of living for everyone there, since they will no longer be subsidized with goods from europe
r0nin-: hence the pound tanking
mircea_popescu: the decline has nothing to do with that. uk has been on a decline path since indeed, 1800s, and will continue to decline. and because their women are ugly, there's no italian parachute under their ass either. wales is a fine example of where england ends up.
mircea_popescu: or if you prefer, historical scotland.
r0nin-: i agree
r0nin-: england will end up an irrelevent island of pastey fucks
r0nin-: even the cuisine is shit
r0nin-: my original point was you are wrong on trade deficits
trinque: that's not a point, you idiot. make one.
mircea_popescu: but the ~reason~ for it is very much found in 1600s trade policy. the dutch had open trade, the english wanted all trade to go through london. their centralist, counterproductive approach is what sunk them. they kept getting freebies, such as when the dutch moved over under wilhelm to become "english", but by and large uk is a thrown rock. it goes down.
r0nin-: what sunk them was free trade
mircea_popescu: and the reason british empire was dying already by the time hitler cut its head off was that the brits in their idiocy wanted all the various policies in india etc to be set from london.
r0nin-: the english model has always been built on usury
r0nin-: usury as the source of value in the economy
mircea_popescu: i'm not sure what that's supposed to mean.
r0nin-: germans understood in 19th century that labor creates wealth not staring at gold coins all day
mircea_popescu: there's a time-value of money, what.
r0nin-: thats a made up excuse
r0nin-: there is no time value of money
r0nin-: if you take 2 gold coins and put them in a shelf are they going to copulate and have children?
mircea_popescu: "labor creates wealth" is unilateral nonsense, one of the three flavours available. what creates wealth is labour well applied to capital goods. that's people + management + tools.
r0nin-: and what is capital goods?
mircea_popescu: the time value of money comes preciselty from the "well applied" part.
r0nin-: previously stored labor.
mircea_popescu: because management has to decide optimal usage of capital goods and labour, and thereby there's a time-value of both of these.
r0nin-: previously stored labor(credit) + labor(present) = future wealth.
r0nin-: there is no other way.
mircea_popescu: in labour that's a wage, in capital that's an interest.
r0nin-: dude how does your money 'breed'?
r0nin-: and have children(interest)
r0nin-: explain that to me
r0nin-: its sterile
mircea_popescu: i just explained this yest, amusingly enough. here : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-18#1700427
a111: Logged on 2017-08-18 22:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your notion of money is broken in that you misunderstand its materiality.
r0nin-: england believed that by hoarding gold coins they would be getting 'rich', so they ran massive trade surpluses at the beginning of their shitty empire
r0nin-: which led to immense poverty inside england
r0nin-: becuase once again how does exporting real goods/services and hoarding gold make you rich? lolz
r0nin-: this is exactly what china is doing now
mircea_popescu: nobody gives a shit about "poverty". let the plebs fucking croak.
mircea_popescu: that's what they're for.
r0nin-: englands next genius idea was to impose the gold standard onto the economy and completely choke it
r0nin-: because newton said so
mircea_popescu: the correct approach is rendering the idiotas for fat. as stalin did, as china does, as everyone who's worth two shits ever did.
mircea_popescu: everything else is decay.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo so what's the story, is flake making it in az ?
mircea_popescu: and in other lulz, how the fuck is it that the libertard media omit to point out melania is fucking hot, unlike that fat mammie obama dragged along ?
mircea_popescu: are the cuntlets threatened a little or what is it ? no moar glamour for 1st lady ?
mircea_popescu: http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/18/gettyimages-632914834_wide-d8a9d3c24306ed3d1f4309b438991c94c1b85680-s800-c85.jpg << back in january (2017) talking to putin. all that's left is the phone now
mircea_popescu: ahhh, taking in the feverish pitch of libertard rage is actually quite relaxing. take this foxy lady : https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/opinion/sunday/president-trump-resignation.html
mircea_popescu: !!up spyked
deedbot: spyked voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: got a pgp key ?
spyked: hello, #trilemans. :)
spyked: mircea_popescu, yep
spyked: should be registered I think
mircea_popescu: !!key spyked
spyked: I tried to do some homework before joining here. still a shitload left.
mircea_popescu: !!rate spyked 2 aka Lucian Mogosanu, arm guy and other things. e-known him for years.
mircea_popescu: !!v 80E4122B2D7A0C1A5C85B9473A2559552A7366C7C965CA27D7AFD9FEEF659366
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated spyked 2 << aka Lucian Mogosanu, arm guy and other things. e-known him for years.
mircea_popescu: spyked you can self-voice. got an ice ?
spyked: no. what's an ice?
mircea_popescu: you know, originally tmsr embeddable work was done on xilinx. recently discovered superior alternative,
spyked: hm. I'ma read about it. I only used xilinx FPGAs myself
mircea_popescu: the idea is to take the wintel blobs out of the fabrication line.
spyked: oh. so reverse engineering the blobs and/or reimplementing? that's actually pretty neat
mircea_popescu: either/or. but generally throwing out and redoing comes up a lot
mircea_popescu: spyked you know what a mac ivory is ?
spyked: nope, and google doesn't seem to help too much. :\
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=ivory << better search than google. anyway, ancient tech, symbolics co. lisp machines from teh 80s. there's (some, limited) effort to cut up the chips / redo the whole thing.
mircea_popescu: in theory it could be fit on a fpga.
spyked: hm. this is neat stuff. I know opencores had some free Lisp FPGA designs. never tried any of them though.
mircea_popescu: turns out the whole hello & welcome works out a lot better when i don't have to ask "so who are you". who could have predictated.
spyked: my initial thought on getting a Lisp machine run was using a RISC machine as microcode. and implement the whole thing bare metal in software. it's a lot cheaper, albeit probably hard to verify
mircea_popescu: spyked the thing you used to search btw, runs in lisp.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes btw can has candi back ?
spyked: I'm guessing a lot of people here use Lisp for their implementations. :) I got into it after first reading asciilifeform's laws of sane computing
mircea_popescu: spyked ahaha, phd in os security ? we had one of your students here last week! http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-16#1698946
mircea_popescu: spyked is acs.pub.ro supposed to be down ?
spyked: btw, I'm working (at snail's pace) on getting a somewhat workable blog software in Common Lisp
mircea_popescu: why ?
spyked: mircea_popescu, no. lol. nobody's working in the uni during this time of year. I'm expecting it to come back up... in September maybe
mircea_popescu: right, it's a holiday, i intuited.
spyked: I don't like Wordpress, so I decided to roll my own
mircea_popescu: yes, but prioritits. there's larger fires burning.
spyked: true, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. and I can do it incrementally (the current blog works. it lacks comments, that may piss people off, but it's not like I get too many readers)
mircea_popescu: there's that.
spyked: anyway, I'm interested in getting a Lisp machine up. also, getting a trb node up once I get some hardware for it
mircea_popescu: re http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/057-reversing-lists.html you know the story of thomson's compilers yes ?
spyked: mircea_popescu, no. I know Inria guys made a verified compiler. with the caveat of "abstract nonsense". anyway, tmsr search yields stuff :)
mircea_popescu: are you aware i think your "formal" model is a piece of shit from paragraph one ?
mircea_popescu: you're equivocating between definition and constructor! wtf is "a list is... : is the list making operator so a list is 1:2:" nonsense!
mircea_popescu: what's wrong with "a list is an enumerated set" ? which is what a list is.
mircea_popescu: it's a set, and enumerated because computers lack the ability to construct ~described~ sets, such as "the set of prime numbers" or w/e.
spyked: hm. you mean, there's a long way from "enumerated set" to 1:2: which I skipped?
mircea_popescu: im not sure there's any way whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: but in my experience, generally people take refuge in minutia when scared of biting the problem. wtf difference does it make how i construct an enumerated set, maybe i push icecubes off the table into the paper bin with my penis.
mircea_popescu: and this 1 2 3 4 bs implying metered and measured and ordered and whatnot. aaanyway, /me reads on.
mircea_popescu: spyked no, see, you already reference "arbitrary order" without having even discussed the matter. why is a list ordered ? how is it ordered ? can penis pushe ice cubes not be a set ?
spyked: yeah, it was very easy to conflate "list can be described as either nil, or pair between something and a list" and "list is defined as". I could rewrite sometime if you think it's worth it; I don't think it is, I was just trying to show how reasoning about software isn't trivial even when you have a framework for that, let alone when void *p = ...;
mircea_popescu: "We may informally state that "reversing a given list yields the list which has the same elements but in the exact opposite order (e.g. right-to-left, as opposed to left-to-right)", but we have no way of accurately specifying this in our language other than by defining rev and postulating that "rev reverses any given list". The same goes for appending lists."
mircea_popescu: except... what does "left" mean ?!
mircea_popescu: it ends up as being an example as to why it is hard to think about systems if one's very inclined to unhygienically import random unknowns into the workbench.
spyked: which was discussed here before, yeah. not new I guess
mircea_popescu: spyked jesus god T1...
mircea_popescu: this is terrible.
spyked: the whole thing is. and yes, this is "formal verification 101" taught in universities. if you want to get even more outraged about it, read Heiser's post at the beginning.
mircea_popescu: no, i have a weak heart.
spyked: he has a start-up where he employed an army of "proof engineers" to work on systems verification. I'm pretty skeptical about it, since I tried very hard to understand his papers some years ago and now it's completely paged out of my brain
mircea_popescu: the problem with getting "engineers" to construct proofs in this vein is that engineers have too much monkey in them. "doctor, doctor, if i shove it in this way it works!"
mircea_popescu: this is nice, especially when found magic weapon in the field. but also very useless.
asciilifeform: spyked: hi
mircea_popescu: anyway, tell me, do you know this choudary fellow ?
asciilifeform: spyked: ever heard of 'fits in head' concept ?
spyked: hi, asciilifeform
spyked: mircea_popescu, yes, he's an assistant prof. in the cs department. works on crypto and some hardware stuff (side channel analysis)
spyked: asciilifeform, yep, on #trilema :)
mircea_popescu: is he clever ?
asciilifeform: gotta love how the 'side channel analysis' people ~to this day~ have not produced a fixed-time rsa.
mircea_popescu: it's not clear they undersrand that the world was created by men.
mircea_popescu: perhaps it was god-given ? came out of the pantsuited hilarity's hairy snatch ? who knows.
spyked: he's okay, we chatted a few times, but I don't know him very well. it's hard to judge most people in the faculty higher than by "mint rubber or not", and he's pretty hard working at least.
mircea_popescu: spyked anyway, if in your estimation guy's not an idiot invite him over next you see him, i want to personally cuss him out for that terrible "advanced" crypto thing wtf is it.
mircea_popescu: o shit. mintrubbing.org!
asciilifeform: re 'formal verification', what a lol
spyked: sure thing. I can reference the Trilema posts on crypto
asciilifeform: what's a 'mint rubber' ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ro idiomatic, to do nothing on govt pay.
mircea_popescu: sort of like a self-licking ice cone, except these'd be the lickers.
spyked: mircea_popescu, Poli survives on local socialist democrats. I don't know how to compare those guys to West pantsuit.
mircea_popescu: was possibly romania's first online item, a joint blog/ezine thing
asciilifeform: vs what other academics?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ro social-democrats are rather a sort of "central republicans".
mircea_popescu: they're historically pro-russia and pro-independence, grudgingly pro-eu cuz "da people". but otherwise populist and strong in the equiv of us red areas.
asciilifeform had nfi
mircea_popescu: whereas romanian "right" at least in the sense of, parliamentarily, is very much washington democrats, all into eu bureaucracy and occasionally inadequate liberal economic policies.
spyked: anyway, the one and only advantage of UPB CS department is that for now it still has the resources to bring up smart people, most of which unfortunately turn into goog/fb/whatever employees. I don't think that's gonna last for long though. wish it did, but...
spyked: I resisted many attempts to turn the "programming paradigms" (Lisp/Haskell/Prolog) course into a Java thing.
mircea_popescu: eh, the paradigm gotta shift from this pasty ass "ima try and make a lot of moneyz so maybe im left with something after wife dolchstoss)
diana_coman: oh hi spyked ; are you still at UPB?
spyked: (many attempts of colleagues)
spyked: hi diana_coman. somewhat. I resigned a year ago, but I'm around for various teaching stuff and wasting time on PhDing.
diana_coman: o.O ; there used to be giumale's programare functionala - quite an eye opener that course
diana_coman: don't tell me it's java now...
spyked: thank god no. most of the course is the same.
mircea_popescu: re http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/04e-the-myth-of-software-engineering-iii.html << hjere's the thing, let's posit that an object larger than what fits in head can not exist. this may seem counterintuitive, but it happens to also be correct. now, the direct solution to the problems of "exponential dependencies" and "clarity of purpose" and so on is that these have to be defined by domain boundaries. once you have this implemen
mircea_popescu: ted, ie, natural size + natural boundaries, you are left with a pile of usable tools which naturally construct a solution for any ~possible~ problem.
mircea_popescu: software is the worst offender here, but hardware is also pretty bad. consider -- i don't want to buy "A fridge", i should buy standardized compressor units, and so on. why do i want "the fridge" ? there's no need to debate "whirlpool" vs "obamacare". compare discrete items.
spyked: diana_coman, but giumale retired. btw, I know he made a Lisp machine clone back in the 80s. the hardware might be lying around somewhere in the faculty.
spyked: mircea_popescu, I agree. do you mean"the fridge" as in somewhat close to the platonic fridge?
mircea_popescu: romania's computer independence program huh.
mircea_popescu: spyked consider that most consumer products come kitted anyway, and when you buy a car your question is "well is the engine from mexico or brazil or germany ? is this the original transmission ?" etc.
mircea_popescu: i assemble my computer out of parts to no great sufferance, and get for my trouble a much better computer than any of the pre-made buying dorks.
mircea_popescu: and i bet you have ikea shit within eyesight right now.
spyked: (not really. :) desk was custom made)
mircea_popescu: so chechen kalash copy ?
mircea_popescu: ie, was custom made out of ikea materials by a local craftsman with shittier tools ?
asciilifeform: spyked: i'd be curious to see the ro lm
mircea_popescu: btw, incredible enough how the borz is not in the logs! pot metal smg yo!
spyked: it's cheap enough to hire a carpenter that I didn't need to buy ikea. and yeah, it's probably cheaper
asciilifeform: docs/srcs more even than machine per se
mircea_popescu: spyked was it a cartpenter you hired, ie, a guy who worked in wood, or was it an ikea clonal system you hired, ie a guy who went to a central warehouse where they cut some glue-dust planks to his spec ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu> romania's computer independence program huh. <- most of the old profs at UPB that I still got to know had worked on some parts of that from what I gathered
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i could've sworn we did borz
asciilifeform: and skorpion
diana_coman: prolly all dead/retired by now
spyked: mircea_popescu, obviously second, lol.
mircea_popescu: well then.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman aha. most of anything left standing were parts of that. "greaua mostenire a epocii ceausescu"
spyked: asciilifeform, I'll ask around, see if I can dig stuff out of the archives (assuming there are archives)
mircea_popescu: spyked see, the thing with orc lands is that they have this. borz, chechen made smg. the egyptians made engine parts to VISUAL spec, by hand. i saw this. guy here offered to produce a replacement pressure hose for me, by visual inspection.
mircea_popescu: this is artisanship, after a fashion, but not to be confused with the genuine article imo.
mircea_popescu: they're the ~copies~ of minoan vases produced in syria, not the actual minoan vases.
spyked: yeah, but must still be of some use though. I don't know if there's even a genuine Lisp machine in ro
mircea_popescu: anyway. the point being that competition should happen on narrower elements.
mircea_popescu: cli works fine because of the | and so on.
mircea_popescu: the correct move is towards a |ing of hardware, and of software, and everything else.
mircea_popescu: if i decide to reconfigure my car into an electric generator or a super strenght fridge or lawn mower or helicopter, I SHOULD BE FUCKING ABLE TO.
mircea_popescu: generation of kids who all loved legos and their world is more fragmented in stupider ways than the 1600s mercantilist world. wtf.
asciilifeform: did we ever do hitler's yacht ?
asciilifeform: it was a diesel-electric. was taken as spoils by su, and briefly was the only source of mains current in odessa when asciilifeform's father moved there as a boy
asciilifeform: reconfigured into genset
a111: Logged on 2017-08-19 19:13 mircea_popescu: so chechen kalash copy ?
mircea_popescu: well in truth it was kind of a single name for many random items
spyked: asciilifeform, found something (in romanian) http://www.atic.org.ro/ktml2/files/uploads/Masina%20DIALISP.pdf there's also a more detailed english version on ACM sci-hub http://dl.acm.org.sci-hub.cc/citation.cfm?id=802028#
asciilifeform: lol 'junkyard wars' scheme79
BingoBoingo: <r0nin-> tahts why you go to US and see everyone in new BMWs << LOL, which US are you smoking?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo so what's the story, is flake making it in az ? << My lulz scroted crystal ball is hazy at the moment
BingoBoingo: !~later tell r0nin- I don't talk privates with stangers
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: Shame this poor mother can't send the author back for a warranty claim. https://archive.is/phQzk
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/08/boston-free-speech-rally-quashed-by-pro-censorship-forces-pickup-truck-bed-flag-index-climbs/ << Qntra - Boston Free Speech Rally Quashed By Pro-Censorship Forces, Pickup Truck Bed Flag Index Climbs
mircea_popescu: !!up valentinbuza
deedbot: voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: ahhh bbq
a111: Logged on 2017-08-19 19:29 spyked: asciilifeform, found something (in romanian) http://www.atic.org.ro/ktml2/files/uploads/Masina%20DIALISP.pdf there's also a more detailed english version on ACM sci-hub http://dl.acm.org.sci-hub.cc/citation.cfm?id=802028#
phf: fwiw, if the goal is to put an existing lisp machine onto an fpga, then i don't think macivory is a particularly good target. the goal would be to run Genera, which is severely lacking sources for critical components.
mircea_popescu: i was just providing him entry points
phf adjusts his pocket protector
mircea_popescu: why genera though ?
mircea_popescu: !!up valentinbuza
deedbot: valentinbuza voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: and in other tight couplings, http://68.media.tumblr.com/1d311e42a24764b32eb521e60adcfd62/tumblr_nt9ft5KbHE1tcl9sho1_500.gif
phf: genera is the software layer to ivory's hardware, it's usually what people are talking about when "superior development environment!11" etc. symbolics architecture is crufty idiosyncratic, so taking its hardware without also the software doesn't make sense
mircea_popescu: so you want to implement the software in fpga ?
phf: no, what i'm saying, so you have your ivory running on hardware, now what? you can start writing systems lisp from scratch or you boot genera.
mircea_popescu: ah. well sure, boot genera
mircea_popescu: though is it actually documented at all ?
phf: it's well documented (in before "ascii: i have all 12 books on shelves right here"
mircea_popescu: so genera-ivory then
phf: but it doesn't have all the source code.
phf: yeah, i fat fingured enter before making the entire point
phf: i'm actually not even sure how much code is there, but what's critically missing is the low level bits that talk to hardware
phf: so now you're stuck with bitcoin, AND you also need to write say 20% of it from scratch while conforming to existing protocols
mircea_popescu: wait, what ?
phf: in a sense that it's a massive code base that works, but if you want to have full ownership, you'll have to fill the source-less bits yourself
mircea_popescu: i c
phf: there are extant lisp machines that have both hardware documentation and system sources, for example MIT's CADR, but cadr specifically predates symbolics by a dozen of years, was developed by academia, so it's nowhere near as advanced as genera
phf: (cadr is what all those mit alumni were trying to commercialize at symbolics and elsewhere)
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4047.42, vol: 15156.11061014 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4081.7, vol: 42660.54035259 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4195.699501, vol: 25297.94210000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4134.998, vol: 5191.23005946 | Volume-weighted last average: 4111.60837286
asciilifeform: phf: i'd rather spend next decade reversing the bolix firmware, than wintel liquishit
asciilifeform: ( for one thing, bolix is comparatively small, quasi-logical, and nonmoving target )
asciilifeform: and product of men, not monkeys
asciilifeform: best of all, of course, would be for somebody to leak / steal the missing bits.
asciilifeform: failing this, could start with cadr and slowly backport bolix envir.
asciilifeform: ( cadr was fpgaized a while back , by b. parker )
asciilifeform: you wouldn't want to use it nakedly tho -- tiny, by modern standards, addr space
asciilifeform: and arch was dirty
phf: fyi if you actually try running b parker's code you'll notice that it's not actually anywhere near working state.
asciilifeform: i.e. baked around various arithm chips available at the time, rather than raw transistor
asciilifeform: phf: i haven't tried the fpga one
asciilifeform: the pc emu quasi-worked
phf: but i agree on the overall points, though moving forward from cadr wouldn't be so much backporting, as "writing in the missing bits"
asciilifeform: ideally would end with the 'good parts' -- the genera envir -- without the rubbish ( the byzantine hacks around specific amd alu chip quirks, the multitude of special purpose busses, the constricted addrspace )
asciilifeform: the sad part is , apart from the ONE basic win ( tagged word memory ) the lm arch was ~= that kalash, 'shit bolted to all sides'
phf: well, it's the prototypical "mud ball"
asciilifeform: the interesting bit is that the mud was never scraped
asciilifeform: afaik even ivory has, e.g., 'spy bus', internally
phf: that's a good kind of spy bus though, back when names for things were innocent. it's not like some kind of "Putting You In Control Bus!11(tm)(c)"
mircea_popescu: and in other couples, http://68.media.tumblr.com/07e78476529bf98675c72ebdc456a5df/tumblr_nbsagh1pwo1s5gthao1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: !~later tell spyked http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/062-greenspan-assault-on-integrity.html << the problem with this view is that the pantsuits correctly intuit that all the imbeciles they enfranchised are sitll imbeciles. consequently it would be no harm to a business' reputation to sell them iguanas on a stick and call it prime beef. they will never know ; and casual perusal of tardstalk "investor" as well as "community disc
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Error: No closing quotation
mircea_popescu: ussion" underneath any scam whatsoever will readilty vindicate this point.
mircea_popescu: there is ~no possibility~ of such a tging as reputation among africans, shamanists, idiots, "what good are square roots" and other sub-human non-people.
mircea_popescu: ah nm, you get to it anyway.
asciilifeform: phf: lolyes it was debug bus
asciilifeform: before nonsensical committee name 'jtag' etc
asciilifeform: you could umbilical 2 lm's with it, 1 rides the other
mircea_popescu: !~later tell spyked corning gorilla glass is just alumino-silicate glass made by corning. there's a bunch others. think of it as cheap bohemian glass, that thing we had the 10kg fruit bowls etc, "cristal". that's leaded, this is aluminized.
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform was just drinking from these
asciilifeform: mircea_popescuine vintage, even
mircea_popescu: anyway. the idea of forced ion exchange so the surface gets potassium-doped and thus micro-tensed and somewhat stronger is not bad.
mircea_popescu: not new, either. only became cost effective recently, but otherwise this is 1960s tech
asciilifeform: tensed glass is veerry old idea - recall 'prince rupert's tears'
mircea_popescu: the problem with these "breakthroughs" and "genius inventions" in the industrial setting is that they're generally ancient lore finally dug from under the mound of economical impracticability.
asciilifeform: by that token, heron's steam turbine..
mircea_popescu: maybe, though really, it was cost effective in 200bc. they were just dumb.
mircea_popescu: but the greeks had the metallurgy to introduce the early steam engine, just like the english did.
asciilifeform: not sure about this
asciilifeform: they lacked the screw cutter, for instance
mircea_popescu: consider, they made bronze statues. and had very advanced pottery.
asciilifeform: ( the metallurgical lathe, that is )
mircea_popescu: they DID make some bronzeamphorae. but had no idea what to do with it.
asciilifeform: need lathe for symmetrical parts.
mircea_popescu: you don't need symmetrical parts to make steam engine.
asciilifeform: ( leaving aside the notion of bronze pressure vessel )
asciilifeform: depends, on what is meant 'steam engine'
mircea_popescu: item that turns fire into movement.
asciilifeform: well if you dun care what kind of movement - they had it
mircea_popescu: for same applications as historically -- mining first, then crop/textile processing, then boat power.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform could have refined it once started, much like the english did.
mircea_popescu: in point of fact there was NO item more advanced in 1700 england trhan there was available in 200bc athens.
asciilifeform: the interesting bit is that metal lathe was created and refined pre- steam
mircea_popescu: the greeks had better shipwrights, better mathematicians, better everything.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they had cannons, just didn't use them as cannons because no gunpowder.
asciilifeform: better everything but off-arse-gettin'
mircea_popescu: that. or good fortune.
mircea_popescu: anyway, funny thing re bronze : it needs tin. as far as ancient world is concerned, copper was uberabundant (cyprus) but tin was either england or anatolia
mircea_popescu: neither a very convenient proposition.
mircea_popescu: but ifg you look at the 1k pre-bc greek cauldrons, the similarity to 1500 ad english castle pots is striking. just... the metal is about 100x finer in the ancient case.
asciilifeform: what's a castle pot
asciilifeform: ...the item one boils in oil in?
mircea_popescu: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-e7Vp6Pa00SM/UZvLa8CFMLI/AAAAAAAACWU/NJf-WVxqyD4/s1600/UK+Warwick+Castle+021.jpg << example i've personally inspected.
asciilifeform: aah so it
mircea_popescu: the greek items can grow larger, and offer no visible seam, and so on.
asciilifeform: ( but is it possible that the seam vanished from corrosion, with rest of surface? in ancient pot )
mircea_popescu: well since the pot is still there, how'd the seam vanish from corrosion.
mircea_popescu: and what corrodes bronze ?
asciilifeform: acidic soil ?
mircea_popescu: this is like 9 yo telling you that the bath dissolved her snatch. you can't corrode just the seam, as a concept, leaving behind the item without a seam can oyu.
asciilifeform: well no, not just seam, but whole outer n mm of item
mircea_popescu: seems improbable.