Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-08-14 | 2017-08-16 → ↓
asciilifeform: mod6: below noise floor
ben_vulpes: in other web esoterica: http://packet.city/
ben_vulpes: "the greatest website to ever fit in a single TCP packet"
mod6: asciilifeform: so if you add back in the FZs that were removed in the 2^n version (re-adding in the 50% reduction of temp space that yields no opt.), do we get the ~runtime of the original?
mod6: just wondering if it could be a mechanical push, yet slightly more readable. maybe making 2^n version more grokable?
mod6: basically, being able to call something like:
mod6: Mul_Karatsuba(X0, Y0, P);
mod6: as opposed to:
mod6: Mul_Karatsuba(X(X'First .. X'First + K - 1),
mod6: Y(Y'First .. Y'First + K - 1),
mod6: P);
mod6: not that the latter is all /that/ bad.
mod6: just curious
asciilifeform: mod6: i dun understand the question
asciilifeform: if you do this, you get the original, what else could you get
mod6: maybe i should ask a different question: which part do you find to be less readble?
asciilifeform: the changed lines, what else
asciilifeform: e.g. the one you quoted
mod6: just was curious if your readability issue could be resolved with pulling the paramaters of Mul_Karatsuba back out in similar fashion to the original. 'tis all.
asciilifeform: you can't 'similar to the original' , it would BE the original
mircea_popescu: phf multi-netsplit yes.
asciilifeform: mod6: 'if grandmother had balls..' (tm)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> which is surreal << cache neh
mircea_popescu: heh. yeah ok.
mod6: the math is different from one to the other, is it not?
asciilifeform: mod6: same
asciilifeform: but no copying of the input
mod6: i dun get it then
asciilifeform: get what?
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 02:15 asciilifeform: mod6: you can't inline a recursive invocation, wtf
mircea_popescu: this'd be great actually.
asciilifeform: mod6: to understand ffa, you absolutely gotta grasp how ada array slices ( which Always Do The Right Thing ) work
asciilifeform: they're the foundational abstraction that makes the thing compact and readable
mod6: i dun get why, if you didn't change the maff, why you would make it more complicated
asciilifeform: mod6: because we can't use the shorthand any moar
asciilifeform: no moar x0, y0, etc
asciilifeform: they don't exist
asciilifeform: they're replaced with the slice expression
mod6: mmk
asciilifeform: and incidentally mod6 , is it obvious why this only works if L is restricted to powers of 2 ?
asciilifeform: mod6: an array slice ( concept which also exists in common lisp ) can be thought of as a sane man's pointer. i.e. it maps into the original, and writes go through; but it is guaranteed not to spill, out of the original or out of its own more constrained bound
asciilifeform: it can be used as a procedure argument anywhere you could use an array.
asciilifeform: array slices retain the indexing of the underlying array. this is The Right Thing ( see prev thread on subj where i explained to mircea_popescu ) but makes iterating over them slightly trickier in certain cases.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> and incidentally mod6 , is it obvious why this only works if L is restricted to powers of 2 ? << no, i think im missing the entire idea of why this is written this way.
asciilifeform: mod6: look at x0, x1, y0, y1 in original kara-mul, and xl/xh in kara-square
asciilifeform: they're temp copies of the multiplicands
asciilifeform: they exist so that the input:output lengths invariants of subtraction and of kara recurse per se, 1:2, are met
asciilifeform: ( subtraction's -- 1:1 obviousness )
asciilifeform: this is because in the original, you can have a L of, say, 3
asciilifeform: which splits with K of 2 and J of 1
asciilifeform: giving X0 of lengh 2, X1 - 1, Y0 - 2, Y1 - 1
asciilifeform: but we're doing fixed length everythings, so , e.g., x0*y0 MUST occupy same physical space as x1*y1 etc
asciilifeform: and you can't subtract ffa x0 - x1 unless they are same lengh !!
asciilifeform: you can't use ada's array concatenation feature either, to cheat, because i banned it. it introduces implicit jump.
asciilifeform: it is banned in all of asciilifeform's crypto code, 4evah.
mod6: alright. thanks for the explanation.
asciilifeform: makes sense ?
asciilifeform: try working through a case where k != j and see what happens.
asciilifeform: see if you can predict how it will end.
asciilifeform: ( out of bounds exception, proggy stops. but where. )
ben_vulpes: why is ln(16)/ln(2) so tidily and precisely 4?
ben_vulpes: what secrets of the universe did my inferior american education deprive me of?
ben_vulpes: i...don't follow
mircea_popescu: 16 is 2 to the power of 4.
mircea_popescu: this stays the same irrespective of which base you use to express the ratio.
ben_vulpes: aaah. then it was a /personal/ failing, not a systemic one.
mircea_popescu: im not even sure what the failing is ?
ben_vulpes: having forgotten how logarithms work
mircea_popescu: as per that ancient "doctor, is it bad if i hear voices ?" "only if you start answering."
mircea_popescu: i suppose a better translation would be "doctor, i hear voices, they talk to me, should i worry ?" "you should worry when you start talking back."
ben_vulpes: oh subject of, i just had a grand time with rushdie's satanic verses.
mircea_popescu: !!up crypt0
deedbot: crypt0 voiced for 30 minutes.
BingoBoingo: !!up b00sterjuic3
deedbot: b00sterjuic3 voiced for 30 minutes.
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697607 << here is my computation (using 4096 bit limit; comes out to 4093 bits): http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/WonUN/?raw=true
a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 17:20 mircea_popescu: this is actually going to be teh magic number of the republic. so at this juncture i would like to ask everyone to compute "the largest primorial (ie, product of all successive primes) that fits in 515 bits", sign it and put it into deedbot.
lobbes: If using the 4160 bit limit, then I get the following (comes to 4150 bits): http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ED76z/?raw=true
lobbes: aka, I get the same output as both of PeterL's runs
mircea_popescu: lobbes ty!
mircea_popescu: in other lulz, "the taking of pelham 123" is one helluva usg-film offering. we find that "wall street guys" r criminalz, that everyday mta riders are heroic (even if a little half-breed), and all sorts of good and valuable citizenship lessons for life!
asciilifeform: !~later tell mod6 http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/6WPk2/?raw=true << 2^n karatsubas, with same readability as 'classical'
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: using the 'rename' feature
asciilifeform: no detectable performance difference at all, however. even with w=32768 .
asciilifeform: ... even with 1MBit (!!!) , i.e. 1048576 .
mod6 looks
mod6: ah, ok. so you gotta add a subtype for that.
mod6: looks cleaner. not sure it is necessary though.
mod6: a topic for further discussion i suppose.
asciilifeform: mod6: not sure WHAT is necessary ?
mod6: having to do the 'rename'
asciilifeform: it's that, or forcing the reader to puzzle out repeated pastes of the slice expression
mod6: thanks for humoring me though
asciilifeform: np mod6
shinohai: !~echo [ticker --high --market btcc] [ticker --low --market btcc]
jhvh1: 4456.4344 3988.038296
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 14:58 asciilifeform: ... even with 1MBit (!!!) , i.e. 1048576 .
mircea_popescu: tuberculosis of the gut ?!
shinohai: tl;dr I'm afraid to get picked apart if I come to #trilema, I prefer to stay on steemit and feed idiots full of shit.
mircea_popescu: shinohai hey, the forum is a high bar.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i never heard of this before ? i mean, lung, bone, some vacuous organs. but gut ?!
shinohai: This is an actual disease, believe it or not.
mircea_popescu will now have to hit the textbooks.
shinohai: Often misdiagnosed as Crohn's disease iirc
mircea_popescu remembers the day mycobacterium was called "koch's baccilus"
asciilifeform: 'палочка Коха'
mircea_popescu: must suck.
shinohai: Charlie Shrem on twatter: "Bounty: I want to run a full node and connect to @Blockstream satellite. Sell me a DIY kit with all requirements"
mircea_popescu: he STILL doesn't know how to run a node ? after all this fucking time ?
asciilifeform: i dun think this one has the excuse of mere idiocy
shinohai: He missed a lot of teh logs in prison!
mircea_popescu: rather : prison is the only employment he's qualified fopr
asciilifeform: shinohai: link seems to refer to the satellite thing in present tense. it is live ?
mircea_popescu: you don't understand how wediditreddit works.
mircea_popescu: but to summarize : words are slowly fuzzed in the desired emotional direction.
shinohai: First you get out the crayons and build the prototype, then .....
mircea_popescu: present tense is merely a political requirement in the vein of "subway hero must be not white"
shinohai: "Go to the #blockstream-satellite IRC channel on freenode for additional help."
asciilifeform: they purchased time on 4 commercial sats
shinohai looks for an old rtl-sdr ....
mircea_popescu: "<Socal> Ah ok I don't know about FIBRE I was simply speaking on the SATCOM portion"
mircea_popescu: you know ? the SATCOM!!!!! portion
asciilifeform: incidentally, is archive.is dead ?
mircea_popescu: motherfucking imbecile nothings omfg
asciilifeform: 2nd day of eternal '#1 in queue' crud
mircea_popescu: "look mom, i'm just like the nigger on tv! talking of the satcom portion!! would you like to hear more meaningless words ???"
shinohai: 12:27:29 Socal Mircea_popescu no it isn't it saves on bandwidth costs and doesn't require internet to get the BTC blockchain
mircea_popescu: they're so fucking stupid their continued existence is an insult to humanity.
mircea_popescu: "it doesn't require internet".
mircea_popescu: and the fucking littoral compressed lulzship doesn't require wheels.
mircea_popescu: cuz that's what the fucking wheel is, a REQUIREMENT. like totally optional.
asciilifeform: in so far as publicity stunts go, this isn't even preposterously expensive -- anyone can rent a MHz or so of channel
shinohai: Cuz .... it's pykrete!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't care about the fucking shrems involved. we know they're smegma.
mircea_popescu: i'm tal;king of the nobodies on a stick herp0derping importantly
mircea_popescu: the chumps. do you have any FUCKING IDEA how chumpy the esltarded chumps are ?!
mircea_popescu: because i don't. it's eaten >9k fathoms of cable and we plumbed no bottom yet.
mod6: this primorial thing is gonna run for a while eh
mod6: maybe i misunderstand the request.
mircea_popescu: it's a minute, what.
asciilifeform: mod6: P = primorial(N) for some N such that P < 2**4096 .
mod6: just one number?
mod6: i thought it was 1*2*3*5*7*11*13 ... all the way up through whatever prime fits into < 4160 bits.
asciilifeform: mod6: we dun have enuff universe for that
asciilifeform: ( timewise or spacewise )
mod6: im not sure i know how to code this.
asciilifeform: mod6: amusingly, if you ~did~ have a big enough and old enough universe to contain primorial(2**4096), you could factor, e.g., mircea_popescu's key, in polynomial time, with plain old gcd
asciilifeform: shinohai: rtlsdr won't work, it dun go to 12GHz
asciilifeform: or i suppose it would, if you have the guts from old tv sat dish
asciilifeform: asciilifeform in fact has ~several~ dishes , from old renters of the grounds, but can't be arsed
mircea_popescu: so it turns out, i never heard of gut tb because you generally need aids to get it. and back when i was reading they didn't have aids just yet.
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: 13:40:00 @gmaxwell (also for sending out transactions people can use many other options, including SMS and snail mail--- a txn is so small you can just communicate it however else you communicate. Snail mail is slow, but if you're only communicating with the outside world via that already...)
shinohai: Dear lord
asciilifeform: shinohai: anything, anything to make that Golden Socialist Future full of nonterrorist blocks made of nonterrorist tx...
asciilifeform: !!up PeterL
deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.
PeterL: thanks!
PeterL: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ZI0Qx/?raw=true << reverse mpfhf hash function, given R, S, and length of message
PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698240 << about a minute to write function, about 40 ms to evaluate
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 16:36 mircea_popescu: it's a minute, what.
mod6: PeterL: huh
asciilifeform: omfg PeterL what is that primality test
asciilifeform: looks very painful.
PeterL: it's a basic brute force primality test, what is wrong with it?
PeterL: works fine for small numbers
shinohai: !!up PeterL
deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.
lobbes: Interesting seeing teh different approaches. Instead of primality test, I just iterated through a static list/array of primes (I figure that list ain't changing anytime soon). Here's my potato code: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/X0jSt/?raw=true
asciilifeform: lobbes: it isn't that this doesn't work, but that the effort needed to verify that you didn't somehow miss one , is substantial
lobbes: Makes sense
asciilifeform: see also the thread with mod6 re the q of 'what is a readable proggy'
asciilifeform: or for that matter the one 2yrs ago re the hypothetical tabs-an'-spaces vpatches and 'what determines effort needed to read'
asciilifeform: not that lists of primes ain't handy -- but that the effort needed to verify one is >= to what is needed to generate same. ergo why not generate.
lobbes: True. Plus if someday I need a bigger list, then I gotta go editing hardcoded lists vs just flipping a parameter somewhere
lobbes: And yeah, horrible to read to boot
PeterL: try this: print a list of the primes up to 100 or 1000, remove one at random, then try to spot which is missing just by looking at the list
asciilifeform: imho life is too short to use 'eyeball diff'.
PeterL: right
asciilifeform: !!up PeterL
deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: !!up valica
deedbot: valica voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: valica: who goes ?
mod6: using PeterL's method, i get the same number with openssl
asciilifeform: reads, interestingly, very much like the gut tuberculosis thing
asciilifeform: i.e. 'this dun happen to folx with a working immune system'
mod6: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/au9GU/?raw=true << another formulation. << thanks for posting anyway
asciilifeform: mod6: the three snippets are a pretty good, imho, intro course to 'you can have a useful, statically-compiled lang without promiscuous pointers'
mod6: yeah man. solid job.
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 4063.93, vol: 25410.14161658 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 4052.4, vol: 61518.92666876 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 4156.549995, vol: 27942.40520000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 4089.994, vol: 13752.7880282 | Volume-weighted last average: 4081.32302404
asciilifeform: pretty serious goxlag, too
asciilifeform: !~goxlag
jhvh1: asciilifeform: Error: "goxlag" is not a valid command.
asciilifeform: imho oughta be reintroduced, this useful command.
mircea_popescu: o hey peterl got teh mpfhf reverser done.
ben_vulpes: noice
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/where-the-fuck-is-everyone/ << Trilema - Where THE FUCK!!! is everyone ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698272 << whole fucking point in such applications is diversity of approach.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 18:44 lobbes: Interesting seeing teh different approaches. Instead of primality test, I just iterated through a static list/array of primes (I figure that list ain't changing anytime soon). Here's my potato code: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/X0jSt/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698273 << verification happens through coherence. if one man writes one program to do one calculation, that man must check that a) his implementation is correct and b) his design actually does take from input to output if correctly implemented. if however the lordship writes a dozen+ programs to do the same calculation, no one man needs to verify either a or b for his own item UNLESS there's
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 18:45 asciilifeform: lobbes: it isn't that this doesn't work, but that the effort needed to verify that you didn't somehow miss one , is substantial
mircea_popescu: divergence. and if there is divergence, there is significant educational benefit in it, as seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698143
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 06:00 ben_vulpes: what secrets of the universe did my inferior american education deprive me of?
mircea_popescu: in other words, the republican model significantly reduces costs and, incredibly enough, introduces a new revenue stream.
mircea_popescu: these premises are dependent however on diversity of implementation. (remarkably, they are not dependent on correctness of implementation ; but they are dependent on correctness of treatment of divergence, ie, no "consensus-building", ever, at all)
mod6: In that case, I have a bit more simplified version of mine that more closely resembles what I started with before.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698279 << it has the significant advantage that it bridges into unrelated record. if your result diverges from the result, you now have a grounded suspicion re the source of whatever list you used.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 18:50 lobbes: And yeah, horrible to read to boot
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall what dijkstra said ?
asciilifeform: re what testing can and cannot reveal
asciilifeform: ^ is a slightly modified version of what lobbes posted. it gives the correct answer, even
asciilifeform: but if you were to use its list of primes for some other program...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform are you proposing what exactly, that out of an array of ineffectual methods we're to choose one and stick to it ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu's observation was correct.
asciilifeform: but imho incomplete.
mircea_popescu: testing only reveals the presence of errors, not their absence. sure. and guess what ? reading code with human eyes, also. and so on.
mircea_popescu: once you found the misspelling you found it and ere you found it the text was just as correctly spelled as it will be after you find it : "as far as i know, correctly spelled"
asciilifeform: in asciilifeform's ( and probably everyone else's... ) experience, the most lethal bugs are ones which produce ~correct~ answer, ~all of the time
asciilifeform: but via incorrect method.
mircea_popescu: the important difference is that this was not reusable but throwaway code. the requirement was "calculater result" not "write program"
mircea_popescu: this changes things.
asciilifeform: this is true. but my original point was that it is impossible to verify the correctness of a list of primes other than by same procedure as generates one.
mircea_popescu: it's certainly possible. i know the list "3, 5, 7, 11" is a list of primes through memory.
asciilifeform: 'bro do you lift!11' 'hey i lifted myself off the bed today!'
phf: could have a monk of saint ascii life form memorize primes by heart to the 1'000'000th one, referred to by the other monks when primes are required. "please, brother joseph, we need primes #5002 to #5040"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you said impossible. it means something.
mircea_popescu: there's no "sporting chance" rules in logic, if your theory is defeated by trivial case your theory is still defeated.
asciilifeform: i bet mircea_popescu had a riot reading russel & whitehead , 'idjits, taking 1500 pgs to prove 1+1=2, which i know to be so'
mircea_popescu: but i would have thrown frege against a wall had he "impossible" something i oculd trivially disprove.
mircea_popescu: which is why i read frege, and i don't read obama.
asciilifeform: recalling correct answer from memory != solving .
mircea_popescu: this is fucking important. managing to go through 500 pages of highly contrived nonsense without flyiong out of my hand, not for everybody.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you said impossible by any other method.
asciilifeform straps on gas mask
mircea_popescu: maybe try strapping that thing off sometime. im startying to suspect "gas canister" doesn't say what you thought it said!
asciilifeform: to briefly revisit upstack, imho a program which weighs more than its output, has a fundamental problem
mircea_popescu: plenty of programs output a boolean.
asciilifeform: tru ( and i linked an rsa-to-nsat generator thing earlier today )
asciilifeform: which, lulzily, refuses to eat anything above 2048-bit modulus
asciilifeform: ( why? i have nfi )
mircea_popescu: prolly munitions bs.
asciilifeform: pretty sure that one's stuck at 512 to this day
asciilifeform: ( not updated since clinton reign )
mircea_popescu: anyway, ima try and pen a pre-rfc on tmsr-rsa, unless anyone has objections ?
asciilifeform: didn't mircea_popescu make one in 2014 ?
asciilifeform: the one where 'just store the fucking modulus and exponent'
mircea_popescu: yeah, well, it's been a while.
mircea_popescu: which one are you thinking of ?
asciilifeform digs for link...
mircea_popescu: there's been too much waffling re keys on my part (which means -- any). i feel bad about it an' i perceive gotta write up
mod6: I think it's fine, we can ratify / ammend it as needed I suppose.
mircea_popescu: mod6 yeah. more like a scratchpad than anything yet.
asciilifeform: hm where did it go !
asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu's original rsa piece )
mircea_popescu: dja mean the early gossip talk ?
asciilifeform: the trilema on 'republican rsa key format'
mircea_popescu: you mean the k,e,N thing ?
asciilifeform: for my part, i'm curious re what part of rsa mircea_popescu thinks even needs to be standardized
mircea_popescu: pretty much logs only i thought
asciilifeform: ( i dun see any reason for a standard exponent, for instance. let it be a W-wide prime , different for each man )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform plenty of things, gimme a moment here.
asciilifeform: and no moar pissant smallint exponents, either. let it weigh as much as the modulus.
asciilifeform: no moar 'we heathens have faster rsa because mother dropped us as babies and our rsatron does different work on different hamming weights'
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's intent with 'p' is to push in the direction of maximum barking anarchy re pubkeys. as it is we have too many 'standards' as it is, ~all of them ill-conceived and smelling of sulfur.
asciilifeform: and this also means as few 'magic numbers' as it is physically possible to get away with.
asciilifeform: and this yes means that asciilifeform holds caps on modulus width to be asinine
asciilifeform: p proggy opens up with the breathoflife preamble, e.g., (TMSR!8192*3,50*500) << 8192bit bus, 3 words of stack, 50 bytes of program following the closing ), 500 steps of execution max.
asciilifeform: this means that the reader (READER, long before executing) knows precisely how much time and space the proggy requires.
asciilifeform: so he can never be surprised by 'd00d's modulus is Too Big!111omfg'
asciilifeform: if i specify a pubkey for myself with 65536-bit public mod, then other people can simply decide that i'm an arse and that verifying my sigs isn't actually +ev for them
asciilifeform: it is a matter strictly between the fella generating the key, and his wot, not for the author of rsatron.
asciilifeform: the duty of the rsatron author is ~to get the fuck out of the way~
asciilifeform: in that spirit, other thing asciilifeform aims for with 'p', is to zap the idiocy where pubkey was strictly an item for ~machine~ to read, and make it something primarily for ~man~ to read.
asciilifeform: ( while also operable on by machine, to demonstrate that the arithmetic in fact comes out as stated )
mircea_popescu: first question, of course, being whether there's value in changing the spec for key primes from "2048" to ">2046" bits.
asciilifeform: likewise we had the fingerprint thread
asciilifeform: fingerprints are fundamentally retarded
asciilifeform: no moar fingerprints. your key is your key.
asciilifeform: no hash --- no collision, floating around somewhere in phase space waiting to be found.
mircea_popescu: you want to actually forbid them ?
asciilifeform: see asciilifeform's earlier barf: not so interested in forbidding anything
asciilifeform: but in not-standardizing.
mircea_popescu: so then what's teh problem.
asciilifeform: if some d00d wants to go around saying 'my pubkey can also be referred to by the letter z' that's his life to lose.
mircea_popescu: um. you either standardize them to null, standardize them to something sane, or allow the empire to standardize them to something idiotic. this is your trilemma.
mircea_popescu: no way out of it.
mircea_popescu: i opted for 2.
asciilifeform: i dun see this picture, where we GOTTA take a shit into this here fine vase, 'or empire will'
asciilifeform: how about an unshat-in vase.
BingoBoingo: But vase shit has phosphorous, for the flowahs!
a111: Logged on 2017-06-01 18:14 asciilifeform: a business card printed on a very spartan (100 'dpi' ) press , gives what, 350 x 200 b&w pixels ;
a111: Logged on 2016-12-27 05:27 asciilifeform: the only sane 'fingerprint' is the entire modulus+exponent.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-09 14:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, the more i think about it the more i'm convinced the ONLY "fingerprint" for rsa key may be... the modulus. 4096 bits and fuck you, if you can't take 32 chars you don't belong here.
mircea_popescu: this is not altogether a weak argument. consider the converse though : suppose i wish to refer to my key by using fewer chars than 512 ?
asciilifeform: this is fundamentally bad idea imho.
asciilifeform: and there is no escape.
mircea_popescu: i mean, i call out "hey, slut" and a dozen eyes rise. these are collisions, and what of it.
asciilifeform: it's like asking for a 17 that can also be referred to as 3.
mircea_popescu: but it's how life goes.
asciilifeform: shitting where one stands is also 'how life goes'. for some.
asciilifeform: for others, no.
mircea_popescu: consider : we often use [very!] short forms of ideas in here, and rely on the op to correctly resolve.
mircea_popescu: it's cheaper this way than to inline everything.
asciilifeform: whole point of cryptosig is not-this.
asciilifeform: to nail down the unambiguous and concrete.
mircea_popescu: but TO HAVE. when needed. not to always.
mircea_popescu: i don't carry around all my rifles all the time, to take a leak, etc. i can't.
asciilifeform: non-1-to-1 pubkey is as useful as pistol that fires from both ends.
mircea_popescu: ie, outer space pistol ?
asciilifeform: yes i can think of a contrieved situation that calls for one. but no i don't want it in the rack next to the ordinary ones.
mircea_popescu: (stability.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was thinking of the aerial gun in ww1, before they figured out that the stuff on the nonbusiness end dun have to be same bullet, only same mass
asciilifeform: but sure.
mircea_popescu: to be sure, i don't think you're making a weak case. im leaving the matter open, at least for a while, can you live with that ?
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's ~whole argument is 'leave as much rsa a matter for pubkey maker as physically possible'
mircea_popescu: dja want to take it out altogether ?
asciilifeform: well either it, or the constant-spacetime. and i'm quite sold on keeping the latter.
asciilifeform: but i dun see how they can live together
asciilifeform: am i missing something?
mircea_popescu: oaep won;t constant spacetime either.
asciilifeform: why not ?
asciilifeform: it's just a buncha xors
mircea_popescu: yeah, it gotta go huh.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gone.
asciilifeform: lol just when i thought up of a hypothetical way to save it!111
mircea_popescu: the 1and0 thing ?
asciilifeform: consider :
mircea_popescu: tbh, i'd very much like to have an alternative there. i put in and took out the thing twice before announcing, this is the third.
asciilifeform: P proggy specifies its time and space requirement , first thing
mircea_popescu: it dun have to be mpfhf so much as i'd like a GOOD alt.
asciilifeform: this means that anything that can happen inside one, happens in fixed time and space
asciilifeform: ~after~ a mphf (or similar) hash is taken, the time and space required are known.
asciilifeform: bang, magic, fixed-time-and-space.
mircea_popescu: mpfhf varies.
asciilifeform: yes but after you've calculated one particular hash, it won't vary...
asciilifeform: you know ~that one~'s time and space size.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/ << Trilema - TMSR-RSA spec, extremely early draft
mircea_popescu: yes, but you'd have to have writer-with-padder on your isolated machine, move pre-padded shit to the fire machine.
asciilifeform: correct.
mircea_popescu: you can do that without me speccing it.
mircea_popescu: so not saved.
mircea_popescu: the ONE way to constant-mpfhf is to calculate ALL the tree of possibilities, 2^message length items EVERY TIME
mircea_popescu: this is so necessarily, as a converse statement of its strength.
asciilifeform: oh hm waitasec
asciilifeform: didn't i derive a bounding function for it...
mircea_popescu: it's bound yes.
mircea_popescu: by m bit size.
mircea_popescu: (by design!!11)
a111: Logged on 2017-07-06 00:28 mircea_popescu: anyway, yes. bound.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform are you proposing to simply "take" bound time every time ? cuz i dunno this can bew done irl.
asciilifeform: if it always terminates, then yes
asciilifeform: i dun see how not.
asciilifeform: (i.e. if you, yourself, already computed H(x), then you know how many turns of the crank it took. and can pass that number along.)
mircea_popescu: yes it always terminates.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and what do you do, sleep(rest) lol
asciilifeform: why naturally you gave me a 9000 steps, and that's a, e.g., (TMSR!8192*3,50*9000)......
asciilifeform: and 9000 steps later, answer.
asciilifeform: and not 8999, and not 9001.
mircea_popescu: i dun follow.
mircea_popescu: so, message M takes 105 bits and 114 steps. message M' takes 107 bits and 119 steps. message M'' takes 103 bits and 115 steps.
mircea_popescu: now what ?
mircea_popescu: (they're all 12 letter words say).
asciilifeform: was more of a philosophical observation : that mphf is not turing-complete ( in the same way 'p' is not. deliberately )
mircea_popescu: yes. but it DOES fork on secret bits all the time.
asciilifeform: and thereby any ~particular~ invocation, can be called bounded.
mircea_popescu: in fact -- thart's all it does.
asciilifeform: it sure does.
mircea_popescu: so unless you're willing to do ALL the alternatives every time, you won't have "true" constantttime.
asciilifeform: theoretically you can make it not.
asciilifeform: by not actually doing the flip-whole-thing bit
asciilifeform: but instead flipping a single bit that gets xored with the result every time you read from the would-have-been-flipped reg.
asciilifeform: iirc i mentioned this to phf here.
asciilifeform: ( as optimization )
mircea_popescu: cuz it'd be either 1 or 0 huh
mircea_popescu: this is an interesting point.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-04 14:12 asciilifeform: one hint -- look at 'screw' as a modular congruence
mircea_popescu: constant-time MPFHF is now an open question for teh interested.
mircea_popescu: !~later tell peterl in case you were looking for more obscure fhf shit to do : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-15#1698518
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 22:52 mircea_popescu: constant-time MPFHF is now an open question for teh interested.
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: of course, arguably if you can actually DO this, you will probably lose interest in the mphf method per se
mircea_popescu: anyway. other than the above "can constantify mpfhf ?" question, also open is the matter of alternative padding. currently all we have is oaep.
mircea_popescu: !!up r0nin-
deedbot: r0nin- voiced for 30 minutes.
r0nin-: hi mircea
asciilifeform: who might you be, r0nin- ?
mircea_popescu: im guessing a medieval samurai ?
r0nin-: im a nobody
r0nin-: just occasional reader of trilema for amusement
asciilifeform: r0nin-: would you like to become.. a somebody?
r0nin-: no
asciilifeform: r0nin-: consider making a key?
mircea_popescu: somebodyhood is overrated eh ?
r0nin-: http://trilema.com/2017/where-the-fuck-is-everyone/
asciilifeform: evidently!
r0nin-: is there a link to this youtube elsehwere?
r0nin-: shit is blocked in my area
asciilifeform: r0nin-: out of curiosity, where ? china ?
r0nin-: poland
r0nin-: every fucking nazi thing gets banned
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> somebodyhood is overrated eh ? << Hey, people are selling "DON'T BE SOMEBODY!!!" now <mircea_popescu> somebodyhood is overrated eh ?
a111: Logged on 2017-08-14 15:12 asciilifeform: in other lulz, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzZb6kfctEU << 'my father would spin like a dreidel in his grave if he saw'
asciilifeform: betcha you played wolfenstein without the swasticas , with green blood, too..
mircea_popescu: r0nin- so get a you know, alt-ip
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> somebodyhood is overrated eh ? << Hey, people are selling "DON'T BE SOMEBODY!!!" now >> http://www.returnofkings.com/125632/the-influence-curve
asciilifeform: r0nin-: dun go away, i'ma make a mirror just for ya
r0nin-: lol the faggot commenting on the video
r0nin-: i got it going
mircea_popescu: twist : voiceover was by alf all along!
mircea_popescu: fishbirding or w/e it's called!
asciilifeform: r0nin-: ok
BingoBoingo: Fishwiving? Birddogging? Doggystyling?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: that was a riotously terrifyingly stupid piece...
asciilifeform: ( the 'influence' thing )
mircea_popescu: will you summarize ? i dun intend to read it.
asciilifeform: 'nail that sticks up is hammered down' or how it went.
asciilifeform: snoaromatic
mircea_popescu: is these for people who actually give a shit re pantsuit or what.
asciilifeform: aha, for whom else
mircea_popescu: i totally should translate that "chinese dissident" article sometime.
asciilifeform: and as always reader is presumed to count
asciilifeform: iirc you did translate
mircea_popescu: ah ? ok then
asciilifeform: the one where 'come to moma's cunt ir we'll give yer wife anabortion every day'
asciilifeform: or maybe i read it in ro, i faghet
mircea_popescu: "whether she needs one or not"
mircea_popescu: was pretty good in ro, i thought.
mircea_popescu: aaanyway. everyone's a mathematician and everyone's a warrior nao ?
mircea_popescu: what else are these halfwits born-ready for ? besides "everything" i mean./
asciilifeform: dun forget, generals also
asciilifeform: and what else.
mircea_popescu: fucking walking, talking stem cells on two legs.
asciilifeform sings 'modern major general'
mod6: ~<+mircea_popescu> asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2017/tmsr-rsa-spec-extremely-early-draft/ << ah, thanks!
mod6 reads scrollback
mircea_popescu: mah pleasure
mircea_popescu: dun seem to be an en variant and yet i vaguely recall one.
mod6: <+r0nin-> no << heh, so much for that eh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al : trilema.com/2015/he-who-gets-married/
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 23:33 mircea_popescu: dun seem to be an en variant and yet i vaguely recall one.
mod6: wb
mike_c: good evening
mod6: how goes tonight?
mike_c: train sucked, but dinner was good. I'll take it.
mike_c: yours?
mircea_popescu: lamb stu.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ty!
mircea_popescu: "It's all very simple, you sit in the embassy and dissideate"
mircea_popescu: heh not so bad.
mod6: mike_c: good!
mike_c: good god. I downloaded these patches one by one, but there's about a million seals.
mike_c: guess i need to grepcut this thing
phf: mike_c: easiest is to just grab this folder, http://btcbase.org/data/stable/ (and http://btcbase.org/data/experimental/ if you want some "unreleased" shit)
phf: actually i've no idea what you're talking about, but considering "seals" i assumed it's trb
mike_c: oh. yeah. ffs, why was i following offline todo.
mike_c: thanks
phf: there's also the mod6 method that builds the whole thing for you, but i haven't tried that since before i wrote own v presser..
mircea_popescu: phf it'd have been great for shrem, had he enough fucking sense to read his own name.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-15 16:23 shinohai: Charlie Shrem on twatter: "Bounty: I want to run a full node and connect to @Blockstream satellite. Sell me a DIY kit with all requirements"
asciilifeform: i dun quite get how come that muppet is still in circulation. i'd naively imagine that he's spent
mircea_popescu: you know what happens to garbage, asciilifeform ?
mircea_popescu: it gets taken to the dump.
mircea_popescu: where it... sits. eternally.
asciilifeform: it sits. not speaks.
mircea_popescu: sometimes a flood or something comes and raises it up again, then it's taken to dump again, sits there more...
mircea_popescu: there's no specific end to garbage.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it only speaks if you listen.
mircea_popescu: there's spent beer cans from like 1972 sitting somewhere closer to manhattan than you are.
mircea_popescu: just... sitting there. screaming COORS! in the darkness.
mircea_popescu: if someone dug them up and shone a light on them, they'd scream it in full color.
asciilifeform: one time asciilifeform went into a demolition site, found newspapers from 'watergate' in the spaces between old cinderblocks, yes.
asciilifeform: surprisingly -- readable, and in decent mechanical shape
mircea_popescu: so in other random lulz, i just built a pulse checker out of this ten cent girly hairpiece. it's about 20cm long, and basically a chinese plastic spiral with teeth. if you hold it up,. one hand on each edge, and prop your elbows against your thorax it vibrates with the pulse vehehery visibly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's the fine synonym for epheb we were using at some point re the herdemocracy aparatchicks ? i'd like to revive it.
mircea_popescu: homosexual synonym, not quite minion
mircea_popescu: gah i fucking hate lapses
asciilifeform: catamite?
mod6: <+mike_c> oh. yeah. ffs, why was i following offline todo. << aha, the ONLINE version is certainly less work
mike_c: yes. not building yet, but closer.
mike_c: mod6 is gcc 4 necessary? like 5 is not expected to work?
mike_c: blech, i guess make is more likely culprit. it's calling "c ..." instead of "gcc ..."
phf: mike_c: i had it working with pretty much everything, gcc4, gcc5, clang/llvm. when i build manually i just use dependencies that whatever local package gives me, at which point make Just Works
mike_c: yeah, no luck yet. that's what i get for spinning up an ubuntu server out of laziness probably.
mircea_popescu: ubuntu is not particularly known to misbehave here
mike_c: ^ misbehaving.
mod6 looks
asciilifeform: somebody very recently posted same thing
asciilifeform: it means that buildroot failed
asciilifeform: ( failed , specifically, to produce a working gcc envir )
mod6: yeah, very strange
mod6: make sure to use gcc4, i've seen problems myself with gcc5
mike_c: i'll roll back
phf: ooh, you know what, looking at the latest v tree, it looks like the makefiles are modified in all kinds of buildroot specific ways!..
phf: so i've no idea if it even builds outside of buildroot anymore, but judging by
phf: export CC=$(shell readlink -f toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc)
phf: it shouldn't
mod6: mike_c: did you get all of the vpatches, seals, and other things as described in the Howto?
mike_c: yeah
mod6: ok. good deal.
mike_c: i mean, i used your perl script
mike_c: and it looks like they are there
mod6: that should be fine. there was a fella in here about a week ago with the same problem as you're having/
mod6: we never did resolve what it was. and strangely, i've never seen it before. im perplexed.
mike_c: well, we will hopefully soon see if gcc4 works. then there is a culprit.
mod6: ultimately we determined it to be some type of environment issue.
mod6: sure, hopefully.
asciilifeform: the buildroot (aka 'rotor') thing is a dour wartime expedient, in case anyone forgot -- if we had a musltronic linux, or a bsd (i.e. non-glibc os) it would be unnecessary
mike_c: gcc (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.7.4-3ubuntu12) 4.7.4 << will try
mod6: alright.
phf: erll, quite obviously for the makefile to work you have to have a file "toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc" relative to where you're calling "make" from
mod6: if he follows the directions exactly, shouldn't be an issue.
trinque: phf: read makefile.unix
trinque: that's the one that originally shipped with the thing, still there
phf: trinque: possibly my thing is not pressing correctly, i don't see it here http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/
phf: aaah
phf: but i don't think that's the one he's using, if he's building with rotor.. that whole new build infrastructure seems to exist apart.
phf: there's this whole dispatch mechanism, http://btcbase.org/patches/makefiles/tree/bitcoin/build/Makefile#L35 but it exists in it's own ./build/ folder
trinque: correct, meant to say that if he wanted to skip all that, could by going there. I may have misunderstood.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-16 02:53 phf: so i've no idea if it even builds outside of buildroot anymore, but judging by
phf: yeah, ty
phf: for extra lulz if you call "make" from src you're going to run rotor build, but if you want to run "legacy" build system you do make -f makefile.unix
mike_c: this exists: /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl
mod6: any luck?
mircea_popescu: mod6 at edge of seat over there...
mod6: this is driving me crazy aha.
mike_c: i don't want it to jinx it. not done yet. but it seems to be working much better.
mod6: and there's no way, apparently, to solve this for everyone until bitcoinos/cuntos is a thing.
phf: mike_c: does this exist /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/bin/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc ?
mod6: phf: <+mike_c> this exists: /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/toolchain/usr/x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl
mod6: oh -gcc
phf: ...
mike_c: yeah, what I pasted.
mike_c: no -gcc
mod6: for the record, i don't have that in my builds either, ignore that mike_c
mod6: proceed.
mod6: if this doesn't work, i'll just help you step-by-step myself. no worries.
phf: wtf.
phf: mod6: it's your own makefile, it does readlink for that path. you can't not have it in yoru build
mod6: have you ever built the new way phf?
mircea_popescu: ftr, my most recent mod6 recipe buiild is ~week old, went without issue.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-taking-of-pelham-123-x2/ << Trilema - The Taking of Pelham 123 x2
mike_c: half an hour later, failed. that's disappointing. but it did a lot more.
mod6: ok. can you paste the error. i'll help you now if you have time, or we can try tomorrow (whenever) you have more.
mike_c: ./toolchain/usr/include/ncurses -O2 -I/var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/build/buildroot-2015.05/output/../../toolchain/usr/include --param max-inline-insns-single=1200 -fPIC -c ../ncurses/lib_gen.c -o ../obj_s/lib_gen.o
mike_c: _22483.c:835:2: error: expected â before ât
mod6: ah, yeah.
mod6: sec.
mike_c: but this did tons more. I'm going to go ahead and say gcc5 is no good for this (at least on out-of-the-box ubuntu)
mod6: yeah. it doesn't work with gcc5. this looks like the ncurses bug.
mod6: do you have rsync installed?
mike_c: rsync version 3.1.1 protocol version 31
mod6: ok
mod6: this bug seems to pop up with gcc5 iirc.
mod6: are you certain that gcc5 is vanquished from your sys?
mike_c: no
mike_c: only that /usr/bin/gcc is 4.7
mike_c: apt remove gcc-5 << ran successfully. i'll try again
mod6: so this is the issue (from some bugtracker) https://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/18301
mod6: try 'purge' too if you need, consult man page for 'apt' if required.
mod6: let me know before you try to rebuild, i'd like to walk you through flushing the tubs.
mod6: *tubes
mike_c: apt autoremove < executed.
mod6: i think you can check in /etc/alternatives or whatever, to ensure there are no links or nothing to gcc5.
mod6: you must smite it :]
mike_c: it's gone
mod6: ok awesome.
mike_c: nothing in alternatives or usr/bin
mod6: so now, let's back up your /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/deps directory.
mod6: copy /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin/deps/*.asc to some other holding tank and let me know when ready.
mike_c: cp -R deps/ ~
mod6: ok.
mod6: now, `cd /var/trb/trb54/bitcoin ; make clean`
mike_c: ugh. that's a 45 minute penalty..
mike_c: any use in trying incremental before that?
mod6: you can try, but it may not help. i'd suggest starting clean from a failed build.
mike_c: ok
mike_c: cleaned
mod6: we can pick this up later if you'd rather too. no worries.
mike_c: should i just make ONLINE=1 again?
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