Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-04-04 | 2017-04-06 → ↓
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes pretty sure you also need the block hash somewhere
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: point me to a 'somewhere', if you'd be so kind
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-04#1636874 << directly relevant. afaict, producing a transaction with trb code boils down to making a 'ctransaction' with 'vin's shaped per the constructor http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=wires_rev1#0261
a111: Logged on 2017-04-04 00:23 ben_vulpes: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=wires_rev1#0261 << kinda looks like all one needs to bake CTxIn's is the hash of the transaction and output index, can someone spot check this for me?
ben_vulpes: plus outputs, plus signing
ben_vulpes: but ben_vulpes steals time from mary to pay peter or how did it go, must away again
shinohai: Lel, I finally got around to checking that tardstalk thread mircea_popescu, re: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1837136.msg18367669#msg18367669
shinohai: "Free feel to pass on my question, so he can prepare.
shinohai: Q: who here in this circle-jerk sycophant orgy supports the delusion of ideal money, given that Buttcoin is an anti-fragile standard top-down controlled by whales? Ideal for whom? No need to wait for the lulz."
mircea_popescu: shinohai i have nfi what that is but anyway.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637547 << you certainly need the pubkey of the input address, which was back in the day the rationale behind the whole "don't reuse addresses" thing -- the pubkey of an address which has paid before is known ; the pubkey of an address which has not paid before isn't known.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 05:09 a111: Logged on 2017-04-04 00:23 ben_vulpes: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.h?v=wires_rev1#0261 << kinda looks like all one needs to bake CTxIn's is the hash of the transaction and output index, can someone spot check this for me?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes take for instance 09f691b2263260e71f363d1db51ff3100d285956a40cc0e4f8c8c2c4a80559b1 : it spends bitcoin produced in the genesis block, and it thereby uses the hash of that block.
mircea_popescu: (ie, if you don't also save the block hash, you can't do some edge cases of (currently mostly unsupported, but historically used) txn.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637556 << it does no such thing: genesis block is unspendable ( originally from a bug in shitoshi's tx db, but since cemented )
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 13:08 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes take for instance 09f691b2263260e71f363d1db51ff3100d285956a40cc0e4f8c8c2c4a80559b1 : it spends bitcoin produced in the genesis block, and it thereby uses the hash of that block.
a111: Logged on 2014-02-21 23:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform remember Stoned B ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i misstated. it spends bitcoin (from a4bfa8ab6435ae5f25dae9d89e4eb67dfa94283ca751f393c1ddc5a837bbc31b ) for which purpose it needs the genesis block hash
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i remember the 'stoned' lul
mircea_popescu: we're never gonna run out of it! such joy.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how does it need the genesisblockhash?
mircea_popescu: some puzzle bs. you might remember we discussed that whole nonsense recently.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 20:19 mircea_popescu: idiot example #1 : peter todd & prb idiots came up with "a way to do things", which does not in fact work.
asciilifeform: OP_DUP OP_HASH160 788464014149d93b4a6135f3d665a0a2d743e6c3 OP_EQUALVERIFY OP_CHECKSIG
asciilifeform: is what i see in there
mircea_popescu: god i'm going to have to delve into the whole pile of ancient history
asciilifeform: the scripttron offers no such knob as 'gimme a block hash', not in satoshi's thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it\s |OP_HASH256 6fe28c0ab6f1b372c1a6a246ae63f74f931e8365e15a089c68d6190000000000 OP_EQUAL| (no sig)
asciilifeform: iirc that was from the tardstalk thread last month
asciilifeform: linked last mo rather
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 13:19 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it\s |OP_HASH256 6fe28c0ab6f1b372c1a6a246ae63f74f931e8365e15a089c68d6190000000000 OP_EQUAL| (no sig)
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 13:16 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i misstated. it spends bitcoin (from a4bfa8ab6435ae5f25dae9d89e4eb67dfa94283ca751f393c1ddc5a837bbc31b ) for which purpose it needs the genesis block hash
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 13:18 asciilifeform: is what i see in there
mircea_popescu: plox use better antecedents.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aah i was looking at output, you have he input , yes
mircea_popescu: now then : 09f691b2263260e71f363d1db51ff3100d285956a40cc0e4f8c8c2c4a80559b1 spends a4bfa8ab6435ae5f25dae9d89e4eb67dfa94283ca751f393c1ddc5a837bbc31b ; for this purpose it actually uses the genesis block hash.
mircea_popescu: this is an artefact of ancient idiocy, but what can i say.
asciilifeform: but how does this 'need genesis block' ? yes it's a miner puzzle that uses genesis block as key. it could have just as easily used bible as key.
asciilifeform: or goats.jpg's hash
mircea_popescu: well... it's in there.
asciilifeform: this is not equivalent to 'you need a block hash to form a tx'. in point of fact you do not .
mircea_popescu: yeah, on contemplation it's not actually used for anything "standard" so to speak, is it.
asciilifeform: not outside block header, nope
mircea_popescu: yeah. okay.
mircea_popescu: memory is a fuzzy thing.
asciilifeform still brainmelting over the 'txid is not unique' horrors
mircea_popescu: there is that. but his proposed de facto multiindex (block height txn height txid) works.
asciilifeform: it worx internally (in e.g., nqb) but the mere fact of tx replacement idiocy being supported in shitoshi's turd, means that a tx is not, in principle, self-contained, can mean entirely different movement if meanwhile its txid got recycled
mircea_popescu: txn is unique within block, not in global space, would at least make some sense.
asciilifeform: thing is, there is NO sane (i.e. o(1)) way to index without demanding unique global txid.
asciilifeform: tx replacement , and the mere contemplation of 'pruning', are a carefully crafted enemy rot weapon.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform blocks are unique (for storage) so you could compose it out of say height.txid
asciilifeform: for ~internal~ index
asciilifeform: see the difference though ?
mircea_popescu: yes. what do you want me to do, shit antimatter ingots ?
asciilifeform: shitoshi's tx format still uses only txid.
asciilifeform: i propose a declaration of 'tx replacement is an attack against sane bitcoin and whoever does it, is the forker, and not us, who thereafter ban it in trb and subsequent proggies.'
asciilifeform: even though shitoshi, through having been dropped as a child, theoretically permitted it.
mircea_popescu: understand something about "declarations" in this vein : they themselves are an attack, if you can't universally enforce them. the us collapsed out of an attempt to declare that "they, not us, are the bad guys" without the actual strength to enforce this ; so did the soviet union, and so does every inept mother who tries to tell her kid what to do out of line.
mircea_popescu: right or wrong make absolutely no difference, even though it's how the female brain gets caught in this
mircea_popescu: as it expects somehow "what's right" to matter naturally.
asciilifeform: i can only describe the known cuts here. it's this, or live with no-sane-index and geometric-grinds-to-a-halt.
mircea_popescu: this item clearly gets rolled up into the "either move to ib or die with prb" eventual fork.
mircea_popescu: and in ib, i expect the correct indexing will still be block height . tx index.
mircea_popescu: there's by now a list of about 3-4 of these, all of them similarily sufficient on own strength.
asciilifeform: ( in unrelated lulz, https://nymity.ch/anomalous-tor-keys/ << guess who not cited!111 )
mircea_popescu: this is entirely not lulz.
mircea_popescu: i guess we send email.
asciilifeform: ( goes straight from heninger etc 'Most recently, in 2016, Hastings et al. [3] revisited the problem of weak keys and investigated how many such keys were still on the Internet four years after the initial studies. ' )
asciilifeform sings tom lehrer's 'Plagiarize!'
mircea_popescu: (somebody plox send to asn@torproject.org claudiar@princeton.edu laurar@csa.princeton.edu an' pwinter@cs.princeton.edu a notice saying "you forgot to quote phuctor, you dorks".)
asciilifeform: 'let no one else's work evade! your eyes!!11'
Framedragger knows phf and asn from that list personally and knows for certain that they didn't 'plagiarize' from phuctor. but whatever, if phuctor not cited, it's plagiarism because independent thought not possible, etc.
mircea_popescu: ima file a complaint with the princeton plagiarism police.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: didja read the quoted bit ?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger you can not klnow such a thing.
Framedragger: how about "was discussed in developer meetings *long ago*" (the counter will be "you didn't tell us then so FU", so w/e i guess.)
asciilifeform: ignoring 5 yrs of prior art will get you nailed in patent court, but in 'academia' it is apparently quite all right, so log as it is 'terrorist' prior art
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what was discussed "in a mailing list long ago"
Framedragger: not mailing list, but in person in munich, paris, etc. (granted, "taking my word for it" is not exactly a great argument.)
mircea_popescu: in other lulz : try and find WHERE you register a complaint with teh fucking shitshow that pretends to be a university.
Framedragger: possible weaknesses of rsa keys and the idea to run a "your relay key is weak" service as part of tor metrics infrastructure (tor metrics itself is an old project, ca. 2011)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what was discussed in developer meetings long ago ? "dude wouldn't irt be cool if i invented flight ???"
mircea_popescu: this was discussed in developer meetings cca michelangelo. what of it ?
Framedragger: so, phuctor didn't originate the idea, is all.
asciilifeform: two separate frauds here
Framedragger: what particular paragraph ticked you off on https://nymity.ch/anomalous-tor-keys/ asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: ~euclid~ originated 'the idea'
asciilifeform: Framedragger: section 3 in entirety
Framedragger: okay i think i know how trinque feels when being side-dragged into non sequiturs.
Framedragger: ok, reading.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the "originate the idea" hogwash is ridiculouys. next you'\re going to bring defenses in copyright cases based on "grimm brothers didn't invent the alphabet so therefore ineptitude is a ok!!1"
asciilifeform: goes straight from heninger, who, while a hot chick, never published the actual data !
asciilifeform: to another similar derp in 2016
Framedragger: asciilifeform: wait you must mean some other page than https://nymity.ch/anomalous-tor-keys/ because para 3 on there starts with "What does our work mean for Tor users?"
asciilifeform: studiously ignoring the years in between. because they contain -- solely -- phuctor.
asciilifeform: Section 3 , Framedragger
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/minigame-smg-march-2017-statement/ << Trilema - MiniGame (S.MG), March 2017 Statement
asciilifeform: 'Related Work'
Framedragger: ah! ty.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ok i've read it; so your chief issue is that they didn't mention phuctor in-between the initial 2012 study and the 2016 years correct? i mean, bear with me, i'm not baiting.
asciilifeform: the 'nothing to see here, move along, it was all this one d00d with broken key gen' aspect is also lulzy.
Framedragger: and you absolutely cannot fathom the humble thought that they simply didn't hear about phuctor?
asciilifeform: Framedragger: tall order, it gets crawled every 3 sec. and is ~top hit for, e.g., ~every pgp keyid on the planet.
asciilifeform: so nope, nice try.
Framedragger: top hit for every pgp keyid? that's pretty neat.
asciilifeform: long keyid.
Framedragger: aha right.
Framedragger: well, my relay descriptor search service also got crawled loads, but the fact that people didn't know about it wasn't because people ignored it; but just that meat-people (not bots) weren't aware of it.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: i wrote to, e.g., bernstein, more than once.
asciilifeform: and to others.
Framedragger: granted, phuctor gets crawled *more* / *a lot* (i presume, from what you had been telling). so i understand the incredulity of "you haven't heard?!!"
asciilifeform: they ~know~
asciilifeform: this defense is simply not available, Framedragger , 'we didn't know'.
Framedragger: the fact that djb knows and ignores does indeed speak ill of him, i agree.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7232807AAC462CD20992D2246A28C5DA1B22375772CB8C9C4D8AD53B8EC873AC << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1673...4139 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '194.135.30.143 (ssh-rsa key from 194.135.30.143 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown RU)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7232807AAC462CD20992D2246A28C5DA1B22375772CB8C9C4D8AD53B8EC873AC << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1434...1633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '194.135.30.143 (ssh-rsa key from 194.135.30.143 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown RU)
asciilifeform: and various media folx ( the risky.biz people, i wrote to several times also , for instance. 0 reply. )
asciilifeform: years of this nonsense.
Framedragger: well, why don't i (unless someone else already planned to do it first?) write to those folks on that ML, informing of phuctor, to see their response? maybe futile at this point and useless, but at least a more constructive reaction.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: do you recall the seclist thread ?
Framedragger: if they ignore then - i'll donate to bitcoin foundation a bit for generating noise.
asciilifeform: i in fact did 'write to their ml', review what came of it.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: the one with whatshisname, the german?
asciilifeform: boeck aha
Framedragger: did you send this already mircea_popescu lol
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd include the 'why'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'll include the why in a formal proceeding. let them FIRST clean up their act
mircea_popescu: since when the fuck does stern look @ slavegirl include litany of misdeeds ? let HER know what she did wrong and let HER fix it.
asciilifeform suspects that it'll end the same way as all of the other cases
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: what original thing did they take from phuctor, may i ask?
mircea_popescu: you mean, on the public record ? so next time starry-eyed Framedragger walks in and is all "oh, princeton, respectable institution" i link him above3 and he has to somehow deal with the cognitive dissonance ?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger you've not any standing to ask, so i guess you mayn't ask.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: there is more than one way to steal.
Framedragger: there is no cognitive dissonance in my mind. i know those peeps personally and also simultaneously do not observe any plagiarism. they used things from those 2012 and 2016 projects.
mircea_popescu: fucking ridiculous question. "what did soviet nuclear programme take from allies ? IT IS ALL BASIC SCIENCE!! THERES NAPKINS WITH FARTS DRAWN ON THEM SINCE 1933!111!!"
mircea_popescu: Framedragger if that's what you believe, fine by me.
Framedragger: (i certainly do not have any intention to troll.)
mircea_popescu: look, there's people with all sorts of strange beliefs. i'm not in the business of forcing ideological compatibility. you can live with it, more power to you.
mircea_popescu: also, i invented blackface last week. want to see the first best greatest blackface performance in history of world ?
Framedragger: for sure :)
mircea_popescu: (there was also some work done with blackface in 1715, but that was in france. that's it though, since 1715!)
mircea_popescu: mp's genuine original theatre. doing things that are useful and interesting. give me tax money nao!
Framedragger seen that post, amusing
diana_coman: Framedragger, fwiw there really is no meaningful way to defend that paper
mircea_popescu: Framedragger no you didn't see it because i had a discussion over coffee before taking the pics with a girl, so this matters now.
Framedragger quietly swears
Framedragger: diana_coman: why does it need defending?
diana_coman is speechless
diana_coman: Framedragger, does that paper seem to you like an honest piece of research work in any shape?
Framedragger: wasn't a rhetorical question. but i certainly do not wish to waste tmsr's cpu cycles, so no need to answer, either
mircea_popescu: no, this is where we waste cycles. too much productivity is bad for management.
Framedragger: diana_coman: i haven't read the method section yet but so far so good.
mircea_popescu: what a difference a decade makes to academic standards i swear.
diana_coman: on a side note, the only truly lulzy part in there is the footnote on page 1 "All four authors contributed substantially and share first authorship. The names are ordered alphabetically"
diana_coman: esp for those in the know of academia-on-the-topic-of-author-order it screams desperate hunger
mircea_popescu: now, i can see the merit in an argument along the lines of "what the fuck do you want mp, research ? how the fuck is that going to happen if you insist on sticking all the cowpokes indoors ? they'll do what they can, nod along with the rest of the "academia".
mircea_popescu: which is the best possible construction i can put on Framedragger 's notions. "hey, this is what college MEANS NOW. sorry."
Framedragger: btw the "which onion services targeted by those malicious relays" part of the paper is quite nice (from initial glance).
Framedragger: i mean, a large part of the paper is exposition. rsa, dht (relevant to how onion services work), etc.; so, it's not *interesting*. but it's not in any particular way shitty. i wouldn't have read it otherwise and certainly do not see it as very valuable.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I suppose that's pretty much the thing here: by now this is the "best" one can see from that area
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the interesting bit is that the enemy applies mircea_popescu's 'outsiders may NOT have ideas' thing quite well. 'oh, those terrorists made sonething? hiw cute. we'll take it and get $100 mil in grantola.'
diana_coman: a bit like "it's not plagiarising since this is what academia is now"
Framedragger: (still no particular examples why it's bad given, btw)
mircea_popescu: the only problem with this is that it's essentially fraudulent : princeton goes about to old people pretending it's a college, but in reality it's a diploma mill like any other. EXACTLY in the vein of how argentina goes about europe pretending it's a country an' trying to borrow money, when irl it's less of a country than my model train set.
diana_coman: it used to be at least translating useful stuff
Framedragger: why it's bad*
mircea_popescu: diana_coman yeah, recall all the hissy fits about "oh this prof translated work, EVIL!11"
Framedragger: diana_coman: do you take issue with any *particular* points, or just the "alphabetic ordering of names oh no"?
diana_coman: Framedragger, the alphabetic ordering of names is inconsequential; that was just chuckles really
Framedragger: yeah i understand.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what specifically'd convince you ?
Framedragger: "#trilema dislikes a random irrelevant paper for not having mentioned phuctor; the rest of the discussion is about how academia used to be better."
mircea_popescu: hold on to yer horses young'un.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: *any* pointers to the methodology; *any* untrue or glossy parts; *any* stretching in the conclusion sectoin.
diana_coman: first and foremost I take issue with pretending that an unaknowledged repackaging of other people's work mostly pretends to be research
asciilifeform: Framedragger: the next act of the opera ( which we've already watched a few times ) is the chorus of seekoority bloggers etc going on and on re the 'discovery'
mircea_popescu: Framedragger alright. does this paper make the statement "we conducted no research of extant art, because [we're too cool for that ; princeton forked off reality ; whatever]" ?
Framedragger: asciilifeform: yes that part is despicable, sure.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: and enabling, is not despicable?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: no; and in fact they did carry out experiments, in the sense of data being gathered (including new data - about the state of onion DHT.)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i don't see how this is enabling. by that metric, *everything* is enabling. someone used phuctor to hack into box, phuctor enabled them?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger so if it does not make that statement, it imports, like any research paper EVER, the following "the authors have conducted a full review of extant literature relevant to their topic, and swear that the following list is complete and correct :"
Framedragger: they *did acknowledge the first study* (2012 - before phuctor.)
mircea_popescu: this is usually included by the shorthand string "bibliography"
mircea_popescu: did they live up to what they swore to do, in your evaluation ?
asciilifeform: as per mircea_popescu's old piece, 'They tend to show up late at parties because they figure they can always steal the cake anyway, so why bother go early ? Let the suckers figure out first - on their own dime - where the good cakes are'
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i see what you mean. do you think this "it then necessarily follows" is truly "necessarily"? what do others think? i do see what you mean, tho.
mircea_popescu: this chaining of knowledge, for your info, is the CORE of academia.
mircea_popescu: it exists in nothing and in no way outside of this. this is all it is. raping your students is not relevant
mircea_popescu: failing to maintain the knowledge blockchain - is.
diana_coman: Framedragger, the underlying issue from my point of view is that intellectual dishonesty essentially bars one from claiming to do research; they might be doing advertising, writing, experiments or anything else, but not research since they are not after finding things out as they are, but about finding something to eat or whatever
asciilifeform: thing very quickly degenerates into gaggle of charlatans each of whom goes to look for who will believe him that 'i! i! invented the integral calculus!!!'
asciilifeform: if you don't maintain the chain.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: i am quite content with their bibliography section. they did not include phuctor (but included the other studies before and after phuctor), and that is a failure on their part. they can be informed and will even perhaps address this point. that does not fail *the whole paper* in my books, however.
mircea_popescu: and yes people take umbrage with very little bullshit, which is not unreasonable, because a) very little bullshit is never alone (we know this, because unlike the dicklets involved, we HAvE EXPERIENCE in the fucking field) and b) it doesn't take much to throw everything off, bullshit compounds while truth decays.
diana_coman: " will even perhaps address this point." <- omfg
mircea_popescu: Framedragger so it doesn't fail it in your book. what of it. i brought a whore to my grandma's dinner once, it didn't disqualify her in my book. that's what books are for.
Framedragger: diana_coman: i don't believe that phuctor is *that* important, yes.
diana_coman: very little bullshit allowed to stand quickly expands until there is (nor can there be) anything else than bullshit
diana_coman: Framedragger, understand: this is not about "importance"
mircea_popescu: Framedragger is this evaluation based on something outside or just emotional ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: acknowledged; weak point on my end.
diana_coman: it's like saying "oh, that guy is not 'important' hence his findings can be stolen"?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: not emotional; in fact i will go further and claim that *your* evaluation stems from a bit of butthurt (which is human, of course.)
mircea_popescu: in what sense first (actually) biggest (actually) project to factor rsa is "not that important" ? who did something more important in the interval and what was it ?
diana_coman: Framedragger, the issue is that it is RELEVANT
mircea_popescu: you can claim all you want, but what's it to do with anything. for all you know i'm drunk. what's that change.
Framedragger: diana_coman: you are forgetting the detail where phuctor wasn't the first to do what it did.
mircea_popescu: except it is, in terms of scale.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: are you familiar with what henninger et al claim to have done vs what they actually made public ?
mircea_popescu: where's the pre-phuctor phuctor ? can i has links ? something ?
asciilifeform: it is in terms of fucking ~publication of data~
mircea_popescu: and please no hn posts of dorks patting each other on back over "meetings"
asciilifeform: as in, replicability.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: how little of the data is public is indeed *shameful*, and in that regard, phuctor should be lauded for making all data available.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger this is a ridiculous stance. not published = not existing
mircea_popescu: what, "i invented cold fusion in 1985" ?
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: then all of the publications which do not publish raw data are null?
asciilifeform: Framedragger: yes!!
mircea_popescu: "oh yeah, he totally did, here's my testimonial" ??
mircea_popescu: this is copywriting not research.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger yep.
diana_coman: Framedragger, yes, they are
mircea_popescu: all publications which do not publish the data are newspaper articles.
asciilifeform: Framedragger: this is why we fight.
Framedragger: that's a great stance of course, but i do believe that this disqualifies all but, i don't know, to speculate, "30" publications SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME
diana_coman: and the fact that there is a lot of null published doesn't make it less null
mircea_popescu: wtf else would they be and how would they be it.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger this great stance happens to have been held for many years, sucyh as for instance when in 2010 diana_coman didn't sleep a weekend to liberate the ro min of edu's data.
mircea_popescu: because it's the only fucking stance because what the everloving fuck.
Framedragger: 100% of psychology papers including early publications; *most* of physics, etc etc.
mircea_popescu: this was an "early publication" now ?
asciilifeform: not replicable --> hokum.
asciilifeform: period.
Framedragger: look, i agree with this attitude; the ssh banners, etc etc are and will remain publicly available. these are *important* standards to have.
Framedragger: i don't disagree there, of course.
mircea_popescu: well so then what do you disagree with ?
Framedragger: i take issue with disqualifying *everything* which does not also publish raw data, though.
mircea_popescu: that we look down at people with "lower" standards ? that we deem "lower" == "absent" ?
mircea_popescu: and why is that ?
Framedragger: it's just too extreme, i believe, and *impractical* (i wonder, did feynman publish raw data?)
mircea_popescu: practical is not a consideration
mircea_popescu: the most practical thing is to write junklets about how potent and sexy obama is all day.
mircea_popescu: THIS is why fucking science is science and not, again, palace literature.
mircea_popescu: besides, you operate on the same exact paradigm, except when you deliberately turn off your brain and any sense of decency to participate with the empire of idiots. witness : if i now say "hey guise, i found way to crack asciilifeform 's key, will publish tomorow"
mircea_popescu: will you mark it as "alf key craked" or "alf key maybe vulnerable, gotta read this tomorrow" ?
Framedragger: well the latter, of course, but how you can stretch this example i'm not sure...
mircea_popescu: early publication == newspaper article. not in any sense research paper.
mircea_popescu: "oh, that hustler bit was interesting". same thing.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger what stretch ? i did an "early publication" of my research! was worth jack shit to you!
mircea_popescu: there's no stretch.
Framedragger: to remark in jest, this makes my own work more easier because i can dismiss any cs papers relevant to $work if they deal with data but do not also publish data. "not science, boss!1"
asciilifeform: or suppose asciilifeform threw his priv p,q to the crowd at his hanging. then henninger goes to another town , where they have nfi, and 'hey folx!! i broke this evildoer's rsa key!!! with new! algo'
asciilifeform: Framedragger: unless you are in academia racket yourself, and get paid to participate in the idiot kakubi where 'i'll pretend your crapola has relation to reality, you -- pretend that mine does' -- you can safely ignore such 'research', yes
mircea_popescu: and since we're discussion princeton : i wasn't going to say anything (which is why i didn't back then), but when some guy found metallic H ( see http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-17#1628809 ) princeton idiots came with a replicating experiment and have been trying to replace the original author with themselves ever since. which is just about as shameful.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-17 15:23 mircea_popescu: https://arxiv.org/abs/1610.01634
asciilifeform: no data -- not research.
asciilifeform: i had nfi that this was a deep and difficult hurdle for anybody here.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i guess may as well try, hm
mircea_popescu: of course replicating experiments are done all the time ; the important point being that they didn't identify theirs as such.
mircea_popescu: (how not ? by not citing. hurr.)
mircea_popescu: so it's not like i'm discussing "isolated incident". there's a very well established pattern of dishonest behaviour. not just at princeton, either.
shinohai: Kickin' it Hanno style
Framedragger: last note mircea_popescu, paper in question does acknowledge the fact that as regards rsa factorisation, their attempt is a *replication* (unless i misread). but yes, should be beaten for not mentioning phuctor.
asciilifeform: or the xray-from-scotchtape thing. (minor find, but exemplary of 'ru untermenschen can be safely stolen from')
asciilifeform: Framedragger: the entire purpose of that paper is to pour cement over phuctor.
Framedragger: whaaat.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger how the forklet of frauds is constructed exactly is of no interest. yes they keep coming up with mealy-mouthed ways to try and hide the fact that they';re dishonest. fine.
asciilifeform: if you cannot see this -- i cannot help. willful blindness.
Framedragger: right. (i think this concludes this discussion. i'm doing some mental gymnastics which are ~pretty shitty (i'm not ready to dismiss all research prima facie which may not link to raw data, and/or may have failed to mention prior art), and i will get rid of them sooner or later, but not yet. thanks for indulging.)
mircea_popescu: "oh, we said we were a replication -- just, not of the right thing!" , typical americana "this will hold until someone looks at it". from the legal system to everywhere else, country's chock full of that hopeful nonsense.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger not like you have to, ever. for as long as you find it pays for you, by all means.
mircea_popescu: i don't find it pays for me.
mircea_popescu: not a matter of some grandstanding oughts here. very cold calculation, it just dun pay. ymmv.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637836 << it's basically the only criteria, it's why thinking people throw out the climate simulacra
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 14:43 Framedragger: right. (i think this concludes this discussion. i'm doing some mental gymnastics which are ~pretty shitty (i'm not ready to dismiss all research prima facie which may not link to raw data, and/or may have failed to mention prior art), and i will get rid of them sooner or later, but not yet. thanks for indulging.)
ben_vulpes: "138kloc of cpp written by grad students? that i can't have? that only runs on golden toilet supercomputer? mmmok"
mircea_popescu: eh, people get actual climate datasets all the time, end up exposing "data regularization" in the sense of "our definition of average ocean temperature is = largest measured +3, wut, problem??" it gets reported, people who can think read, people who can't think upvote each other on hn, etc.
ben_vulpes: there is that, doesn't change that sim is unpublished part of system on basis of which claims are being made
mircea_popescu: yeah. well, it got force-published once, to much "unhappened" hangwringing and posturing.
mircea_popescu: was the lulz of all time, too. ~excel calculation.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637792 << this for the record is quite false. there's a lot of research published, up until when the "our democracy" imbeciles saw themselves in the position of "running things" and they came up with the current pseudo-academic nonsense. i suppose "bologna system" +- a decade or two.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 14:32 Framedragger: that's a great stance of course, but i do believe that this disqualifies all but, i don't know, to speculate, "30" publications SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME
mircea_popescu: (for they who don't know, bologna is how you say baloney.)
ben_vulpes: BingoBoingo: "of under the"
diana_coman sees a bit of a younger Diana's shock along the lines of "it can't really be true that 99% of the world I live in is actually rotten to the core" on re-reading Framedragger's replies
Framedragger: maybe. :) i'm aware that most of it is ~crap, but this is more like "99.99%" vs. 99%. also, i'll make a note to check if feynman included data in any publications which dealt with data (i.e. not only pure models.)
BingoBoingo: ty fxd ben_vulpes
asciilifeform: Framedragger: feynman was a ~theorist~
mircea_popescu: i'd like to hear the return of that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah he did some safecracking work
mircea_popescu: it's a well chosen example. he might well not have. because "o noes, laws".
asciilifeform: and collegues'wifefucking
Framedragger: and did calculations on computor, too (but not sure if relevant to any research)
mircea_popescu: anyway, the most this'll do is make feynman more dubious, not the anti-principle more acceptable.
Framedragger: yesyes that i understand. :)
mircea_popescu: but not a bad review, certainly not wasted time imo.
Framedragger: "on review, legit science is 19 publications"
diana_coman: Framedragger, if it adds up to "only 30 papers in TOTAL" it means you are not going back long enough really
mircea_popescu: may be "30 papers since 2016ish"
mircea_popescu: eg the one in fundamental physics i quoted above does include.
mircea_popescu: it's not like genuine science isn't made by genuine scientists. the pretense to the contrary is the other half of the scum delusion. cannonically "you have no option BUT to build raft out of lcd".
mircea_popescu: that thing is of two parts : a) broke your house and b) there's nothing else.
mircea_popescu: defeating a does not mean i'll now accept b, the whole fucking point is to extirpate the empire of stupid, not to drive in one branch by the measure driving the other out.
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is how the middle class ended up poor : "a) we are living above our means and headed for bankruptcy, but b) our means are so disproportionate to our living by now that attempting to live within our means can not be called living!!1"
mircea_popescu: supposedly this is an unsolvable dilemma, at least for any housewife that's never met the whip.
mircea_popescu: actually the first quote in there is vaguely covered in eg http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-29#1633686
a111: Logged on 2017-03-29 06:59 mircea_popescu: they drew the conclusion that optionality is not enough, and work safety must be provided through regulation.
mircea_popescu: this is a fundamental problem in humans, that they'll take overdangerous work.
mircea_popescu: amply documented (though mostly in early 1900s work, so i guess from a certain perspective lost by now)
asciilifeform: that ain't a problem. it's how the poison cherries get tasted, oceans -- explored, embrasures -- plugged
mircea_popescu: pretty much.
asciilifeform: problem is the modern 'everybody's a winner' nonsense.
asciilifeform: not the risk-taking.
mircea_popescu: it's (unsurprisingly) a male trait, and a young'un trait, which explains other things too
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i didn't mean problem as in "bad thing to fix" i meant problem as in "legitimate topic"
mircea_popescu: it's for instance one of the best bio-based challenges to say rational economic agent theory.
asciilifeform: people ain't entirely not-bees, noose at eleven.
mircea_popescu: see, this is what i mean by problem : it's not even clear if this is a more-bee or less-bee characteristic!
asciilifeform: embrasure-plugger ~= bee
mircea_popescu: bee takes no risks. got its recipe, follows it.
asciilifeform: the risk taken by soldier is just as imaginary an object.
mircea_popescu: this can be argued. but then again ~all war literature proposes the contrary
mircea_popescu: (i mean here, 1st person accounts, no wankery)
asciilifeform: if bee could 'hamsterize' like a human coward, would think same thought
asciilifeform: what i mean is, 'risk' is an item just like, e.g., negative integers
asciilifeform: in reality, you're either mained/killed , or not.
asciilifeform: see also everett...
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so is your proposition that "marry good man ; make him good children" = same thought any bee'd think if born of Γιατί μόνο εσείς, οι Λάκαινες, έχετε εξουσία πάνω στους άνδρες ?
mircea_popescu: i can't evaluate this./
asciilifeform: *maimed
mircea_popescu: incidentally, a couple of people asked for details and i linked them the logs, if noobs show up do me a favour and up'em.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637554 << why is pubkey being known so bad?
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 13:04 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1637547 << you certainly need the pubkey of the input address, which was back in the day the rationale behind the whole "don't reuse addresses" thing -- the pubkey of an address which has paid before is known ; the pubkey of an address which has not paid before isn't known.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the traditional explanation is, 'ecdsa break fucks people with known pubkeys, but not those for whom only hash is known'
asciilifeform: ftr i disagree, it'll fuck everyone who is sitting on bitcoin
asciilifeform: just not with same end of the dildo
asciilifeform: the traditional notion is 'ecdsa breaks ? folx who have hash-only outputs can simply use them as lamport signatures'
asciilifeform: but this is dubious imho.
asciilifeform: it is a little bit like saying 'if nsa finds algo that breaks 70% of ecdsa keyspace, the remainder is still ok and 30% of bitcoin addrs will remain safe, bitcoin lives on'
ben_vulpes: as soon as one attempts to spend from one of those hashed addresses you're in a race with everyone to get the txn confirmed though
ben_vulpes: i dunno how ecdsa break is not bullet for btc
asciilifeform: bullet.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 03:19 lobbes smells a tmsr archive server in the future
asciilifeform: Framedragger: imho it is tricky: you can't simply 'curl' or 'wget', gotta somehow render crapolade if caching heathen sites
asciilifeform: and also not very useful without a secret (uci!11) net of proxies
Framedragger: yeah yeah, and i recall discussion about how archive.is does this (phf had some notes), etc.; it's quite icky.
Framedragger: hm yeah.
Framedragger: all doable, but relatively tricky (of the icky kind, i.e., one has to try out some things, and will end up with a set of semi-hacks due to webstack being one large hack.)
asciilifeform: i can think of 1 fairly easy method for rendering (there is , iirc, a 'headless chromium' or something like) but the problem is that if you run it on bare iron, it'll be perma-owned.
asciilifeform: ideally you want it running in a qemu-like thing with randomly-generated instruction set. and that reverts to known bitstate on every shot.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: known bitstate, you mean, a unique fingerprint exposed to websites?
asciilifeform: i meant machine state
asciilifeform: contents of ram and cpu registers.
Framedragger: ah. well, i can imagine a fleet of VMs (on an ok-to-be-pwned, of course) emulating browser for this.
asciilifeform: that'd be the naive implementation , yes
asciilifeform: in practice there is an immediate problem , long before it gets owned, even
asciilifeform: astronomical expense under heavy use (and/or abuse)
Framedragger: this was addressed, no? restrict to in-channel use, and/or l1+l2 or something or other.
Framedragger: archive.is already serves the "for the all peoples" function.
Framedragger: all the*
Framedragger: ok-to-be-pwend box*
asciilifeform: 'in channel use' is problematic, because enemy then knows what is being archived.
asciilifeform: there is NO reason to tell him ahead of time.
Framedragger: enemy which knows and tracks this but which is not capable of extracting/tracking current requests to archive.is?
Framedragger: also, private message access.
asciilifeform: i'd like to see ~less~ reliance on ictronic quasiauthentication, not more.
Framedragger: hey, who wouldn't, brother
Framedragger: thing is, the irc wrapper on top of gpg challenge-response is *thin* (at least in, say, scriba), and easily removable/changeable.
Framedragger: but i guess you're saying that this particular archiver would rely on irc state (otherwise quite cumbersome to do challenge-response per every url request), which of course is quite bad.
Framedragger: but then if things are coded correctly, it shouldn't be hard to swap irc for gossipd later, imho
Framedragger: i.e., the interface of the 'is_this_request_coming_from_legit should not be too irc-specific.
Framedragger: can also make irc-independent endpoint (http or w/e) which does WoT gpg challenge-response. prototype would speak a thousand words though, i suppose. :)
Framedragger: ^ re. endpoint, oops no need for *challenge*, just a specific format for gpg-signed msg. (this is basically mpex interface, i guess.)
asciilifeform: the js crapolade problem is also imho serious.
asciilifeform: i even suspect that the closest thing to a final solution would be the extract a ~bitmap~ from simulated browser, and then embed OCR info !
asciilifeform: rather than to try to get the text out in the customary way.
asciilifeform: the most egregious heathens ('mainstream media' organs etc) worked quite hard to make their www ~unarchivable, and largely -- succeeded
phf: that's what archive.is technically does. the js problem is "solved" by letting the jser do it's thing and get the ~dom~ into some state. archive.is actually stores the resultant dom rather than original html
asciilifeform: (turn off js, and the text -- vanishes. store the js without executing -- the archive READER will attempt to load it ! from enemy ! )
asciilifeform: phf: this works when it works.
asciilifeform: lately i've been seeing sites that yield a blank archive.is page.
asciilifeform: more and more often.
Framedragger: curious if latter is due to js emulator not being 'good enough', or blacklisting (who dares archive us!1)
phf: i've been browsing the web using dillo/netserf from openbsd box and realized just how broken it become compared to even 5 years ago. only places that you can still render on old browser are the backalleys. uncle al style homepages, tmsr, *chans
asciilifeform: if you want, whichever, the beobachter, or even 'arse technica', etc -- fuhgetit
phf: Framedragger: in case of archive.is there's no "js emulator". it's proper js. usually what happens is that your browser sends various events when the network load is complete, and the dom is rendered
phf: after the events though there's still potentially a few ticks while js assembles the page
phf: customary you put a few second timeout, but even that might not be enough
Framedragger: hmm. i suddenly became concerned with potential failed archival requests from scriba - will check log (iirc not many failures, tho - otherwise would know.)
asciilifeform: no, no reason it would be obvious
asciilifeform: plenty of things just happily serve up a blank page to the archiver.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: i sometimes check "archived sites" log (separate file) and it looks ~healthy (but no deep inspection).
Framedragger: ah *that*; i see what you mean
Framedragger: but this web
phf: also, these days you have js packing frameworks (like browserify) doing frontend on-demand js loads, which means that ~browser~ doesn't know when page load is complete. you get "lightweight" pages, that don't actually have anything until 8mb of javascript gets its shit together.
asciilifeform: phf: recall, recent lulznews item, a certain lamestream news www uses 100MB/hr while page open
Framedragger: this is PTSD material
Framedragger: so, if tmsr were to have its own archiver, i don't think archive.is' approach is the way to go, even though it is (arguably, maybe) the most 'reliable' / 'true' (actual js rendering in browser). exposing user to JS defeats half its purpose. imho.
doppler: "constantly horrified" is my universal internet status
asciilifeform: Framedragger: imho a more reasonable thing would be a command line thing, a kind of augmented curl, that yields a tarball
phf: Framedragger: you don't have to expose the user to js with archive.is approach
asciilifeform: which l1 folx can then sign and upload.
asciilifeform: this would solve the 'blocked ip' problem. but at the same time introduce new ones.
Framedragger: phf: you mean, js rendering done server-side? sorry i got confused i guess
asciilifeform: i don't actually know of a sane way to do this job. which is why i have not ever attempted to do it.
asciilifeform: problem might not have a sane+general solution.
mircea_popescu: the "insulate from js" is absolutely major.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes it's not measurably bad. theoretically it weakens the problem of "spend somone else's inputs".
phf: Framedragger: yes, archive.is is a headless webkit. it loads the page with all the resources, it lets the javascript run until the DOM is in some "final" state, it snapshots the DOM. at this point you no longer need javascript to further render page
asciilifeform: and not merely from the 'js 0day' pov !!
asciilifeform: but ~strictly~ from an archivist's
Framedragger: asciilifeform: standalone command line program makes sense indeed (and can be 'wrapped' in web/irc service if need be, later)
asciilifeform: i.e. a js-containing turdball is not self-contained
asciilifeform: can be remote-manipulated at a later date.
asciilifeform: (today it calls load_party_line_from_washinton() and it gets one thing; tomorrow -- another)
Framedragger: phf: ah, but i meant the initial rendering phase - the 'archive this plz' process itself. but thanks for clarifying yeah
mircea_popescu: ah i see alf addressed. it's an exercise in typical expertsexchange wankery, total misunderstanding of engineering etc.
asciilifeform: the js, if it executes (and to archive heathenry, it generally must) must execute ONCE.
asciilifeform: and preferably in a designated public toilet
phf: Framedragger
phf: err
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha, hence headless etc.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: as phf said, archive.is output does not contain js. just to clarify.
asciilifeform: yeah, i suspect that it is built along the lines described earlier
phf: doesn't have to contain rather. i'm sure they don't scrape it diligently enough.
asciilifeform: but consequently suffers other problems (it is trivially blocked, and is in fact trivially distinguishable in real time from 'civilian' browser)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> ideally you want it running in a qemu-like thing with randomly-generated instruction set. << this may be overkill. could as well run it in a rom-os machine or something.
asciilifeform: i (with handful of other folx) once built exactly such a machine, for executing winblowz virii
asciilifeform: it wasn't cheap, or simple, or +ev.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the ocr idea is miserable, sadly, because so many glyphs and nonsense.
asciilifeform: i wonder what the state of the art for blind folx is.
asciilifeform: could try picking up ~that~, and reusing.
phf: state of the art for blind folx is misserable.
asciilifeform: what if you were to use a patched glyph renderer ?
asciilifeform: machine-wide.
Framedragger: i can ask one such folk ('camlorn on #libaudioverse - has his own 3d audio library, competent at what he does). i recall him explaining the shitshow that was getting cs degree by translating cs paper pdf (horror)
phf: basically agent on top of internet explorer/others that, with a specially annotated page (ARIA standard) can make the experience usable
asciilifeform: anything that asks a glyph to be drawn on the raster display -- instead ends up creating a 'haha, glyph G was asked for' record.
asciilifeform: and fuck the display.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: best software / environment by his recollection was on windows, which was sadnews
phf: asciilifeform: that is not though how rendering works on "modern os". unlike x there's no central authority on glyph rendering. instead you have layers of surfaces that each app manages on its own.
Framedragger: ^ sorry meant "*math* paper pdf" (think, formula in shit format). eughhh
asciilifeform: phf: at some point it invokes the truetype engine, neh
asciilifeform: so you catch it there.
mircea_popescu: phf> state of the art for blind folx is misserable. << about same as in 1997.
asciilifeform: find all copies of it and patch'em all.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger does "jaws" still work/exist ?
phf: but it doesn't invovoke truetype ~as one last pass~. instead you have fifty different truetype invocations to lay out a small surface, that's placed into an hierarchy of such surfaces
mircea_popescu: i even linked some lulz re idiot font loading in wwwturds.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: not familiar / wouldn't know. my exposure to the whole thing was literally just "found relevant library; hop on irc to ask the author; chat for a while; realise he's blind; ask about his experience"
mircea_popescu: i suspect alf is blessfully unaware of what utter shitshow fonts / glyphs are irl. and bid him keep his innocence
mircea_popescu: for it gave other men ulcers.
doppler: too bad web developers ever received the power to control the rendering of their sites so closely
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually i have a fairly accurate idea. but last time i opened the reactor cover, at least there was ~1~ copy of truetype shitfest running per box...
mircea_popescu: doppler but you know, when people get self-determination and the right to make their own decisions, everything improves.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not the case anymore afaik.
doppler: what about the website-viewer's right to make their own decisions?
doppler: it goes both ways
mircea_popescu: sorry i can't hear you over the sound of hillary clinton's pantsuit.
phf: asciilifeform: there's ~one~ true type library, but it's called at random times to render a small part of the page, so by simply following the invocations you won't be able to reconstruct how the individual results fit into the on-screen
mircea_popescu: phf provided eg "java runtime fonts" aren't there on top of x11-fonts etc
phf: a sentence like "hello world this is test" might get an invocation like render("world this") followed by render("hello") followed by render("is test"), simply because higher level widget engine decided that's the order of exposure, or hierarchy, or whatever
asciilifeform: pdfization, more or less, sounds like.
asciilifeform: 'wanna know the output? run this massive turing-complete barrel of shit'
mircea_popescu: it's the way of the future ; everything is connected etc.
phf: right, not to mention competing rendering engines ("system wide library doesn't kern glyphs the way our ui designer thinks is appropriate so we do it ourselves!!1")
mircea_popescu: (this happens a lot more than anyone sane would on his own power imagine)
mircea_popescu: "why THE FUCK do you want to mess with the fonts" "because we truly have nothing to do with our time" "Do you understand reading speed decreases 3x if the reader has to deal with unfamiliar typefaces ?" "uuga booga"
mircea_popescu: half literate fucktards, all typefaces are new to them all the time.
asciilifeform: 'and, bonus! evil TERRORISTS! can't archive it!'
CompanionCube sometimes wishes we could banish entirely-JS 'websites' from the face of the earth
asciilifeform: which is why i half-seriously suggested 'archiver oughta be a rack of instrumented ipads and ocrtron'
asciilifeform: it's the only way to 'perma-archive EXACTLY what plebes see'. supposing that is a design goal.
mircea_popescu: im not sure it's a design goal.
doppler: I'm so glad flash player sites are mostly gone now, but JS has just taken its place really
mircea_popescu: im not even sure wtf the design goals would be, which is why we're wallowing
asciilifeform: precisely, it's why asciilifeform has not touched the problem.
asciilifeform: not sure it ~is~ a problem.
CompanionCube: asciilifeform: problem is that ipads will display different to desktop
asciilifeform: the actual problem may be something else.
CompanionCube: and since you will most likely want desktop version...
mircea_popescu: doppler flash is stiull live and well in the "browsere games" niche. heck, adobe recently made new linux flash (after years of stfu)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu wants to archive browser-tetris ?!
mircea_popescu: well i didn't want to archive "artists" flash bs in 2007 either
doppler: haha
asciilifeform: the use of 'flash' to output ~text~ articles -- has, afaik, mercifully, died.
doppler: ^-- that's what I was referring to.
mircea_popescu: honestly i'm not even sure i actually want to archive, eg, fake news sites.
asciilifeform: that's largely what archivetron was ~for~, to date, neh
asciilifeform: a pill against memory hole.
CompanionCube: flash-for-games is at least personally
CompanionCube: tolerable
mircea_popescu: at least to my eyes, archiving to date was there to provide a sort of cheaper and lighter deedbotting for webpages.
mircea_popescu: but the majority of those webpages were republican rather than imperial.
mircea_popescu: i suppose this is part of the problem of "wtf were the design goals again ?" -- swiss knife syndrome, many things for many people at many different times.
asciilifeform: 'deedbot for arbitrary www links' sounds like the right thing.
asciilifeform: but in practice is monstrously gnarly.
mircea_popescu: yeah. it sounds like the right thing but in the process of so sounding hides under a welded shut hood all the design trade-offs which'll need to be made.
mircea_popescu: else any random rustard can throw a wrench in your whole thing. "gotta support fdlkgjkldfjl!!~11"
Framedragger: (i suppose an imperfect ('may fail on particularly gruesome imperial sites', say) prototype as a *standalone command line program* would make sense.)
mircea_popescu: Framedragger would be nice, but conceivably you'd be stuck bolting js to links or such
Framedragger: not necessarily.
Framedragger: !#s selenium
mircea_popescu: ah interesting
CompanionCube: isn't that for automatic website testing
CompanionCube: doesn't seem that good of a fit
asciilifeform: selenium + civilian wwwbrowser is 1 way.
Framedragger: we use it for website-with-loads-of-js-logic scraping
asciilifeform: has obvious problems (massive cpu expense, and cleanup)
Framedragger: worx. (heavier than scrapy in that can handle 'need js to click on 'next' button' logic)
Framedragger: asciilifeform: tru.
asciilifeform: i have a cl interface to selenium written from some years ago, i used it to cheat spammers
Framedragger: CompanionCube: that's just one use case, to be clear
asciilifeform: it's only a 'remote control' for traditional www browser.
Framedragger: (and that use case existing is good signal in this case)
mircea_popescu: i suppose in principle could exist as an "proper archival browser extension". i suppose very close to what ppl like browsershots etc do
mircea_popescu: part of the problem being that common browser instructed to "Save page" will proceed to save the html rather than the dom, or however you call the ast in www.
Framedragger: quite sure that it's possible to dump dom in selenium but in any case, yes dumping it seems like a prerequisite, like what archive.is does and what phf said above
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron what format is the mysql database stored as, sql ? its native binary whatever it is ?
mircea_popescu: Framedragger quite yeah.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron for the record it's snippet not snippit
asciilifeform: the loading per se, with civilian browser + e.g., selenium, is trivial. the ~cleanup~ (run in vm? restore state how ?) is the tricky bit.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: do you mean that "single archive request handled by dedicated process which terminates at end of request" wouldn't be enough in terms of cleanup? (due to js as vector of attack to machine?)
mircea_popescu: somethinglikethat
asciilifeform: running a js is like fucking hiv whore.
asciilifeform: yes, will take you 9001 shots for the roulette revolver to fire.
asciilifeform: in the end you're just as dead.
mircea_popescu: more liek being the whore.
mircea_popescu: o hey, leningrad metro blew up yest
Framedragger: i wonder if "can run archive requests on 'uncleaned' (i.e.: already possibly infected) VM" could be allowed for. it's not exactly a gpg-signed-msg timestamping service.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: day before
asciilifeform: major wank there, also
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: lenin returned to russia 100 years ago in april. COINCIDENCE?
asciilifeform: 'usg did it!1' 'putler did it!11' etc
mircea_popescu: can lenin burning melt steel ?
asciilifeform: sop narrative, the pantsuit folx are automagically 'putler did it'
asciilifeform: before the corpses cold, even.
CompanionCube: why would putin bomb their own place like that
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1638105 << dumping dom is not hard (it's innerhtml attribute on document.body/head), extracting images/objects is harder. used to be able to do it using canvas, but not there's security provisions. you literally have to go into the browser's cache (via internal apis) to got the graphic, etc. back. or else redownload, which is rife with potential issues
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 18:06 Framedragger: quite sure that it's possible to dump dom in selenium but in any case, yes dumping it seems like a prerequisite, like what archive.is does and what phf said above
mircea_popescu: wait, putin bombed his own loyal subjects ? what is he supposed to be, bahamas ?
asciilifeform: CompanionCube: same reason bush did ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno "same reason ustard did it" applies outside of "the country"
CompanionCube: asciilifeform: but putin wouldn't get much more power unlike bush
Framedragger: phf: ugggghhh. (now i recall you possibly mentioning this in relation to archive.is; i see i see.. that's what they do)
mircea_popescu: phf o whoa
phf: Framedragger: right, you have dom, you have running javascript, can do all kinds of things to dump/before dump. what you don't have through any legitimate means is the byte sequence for a linked object. at least with headless webkit (via Qt) you can instrument cache with special methods that would give you that data. selenium not at all
Framedragger: yes i see. amazing.
Framedragger: ty for fixing model in head. even more sad now
mircea_popescu: akbarjon djalilov. sounds legit.
Framedragger: CompanionCube: i checked and apparently selenium is primarily branded as 'automation framework' - you're right (but folx use it for scraping)
mircea_popescu: i've been meditating on this, wtf is www even for, again ?
asciilifeform: CompanionCube: are you familiar with 'juche' ?
CompanionCube: asciilifeform: the north korean ideology? not really.
asciilifeform: it is thought to be a trademark of north kr, but really goes back to the time of confucius
asciilifeform: represents one of the possible 'magnetic poles' for a small, unimportant country living next to great empire
mircea_popescu: alf is kim jong lol convert ?!
asciilifeform: alf is not expert on the east, but knows a little of the insider wank, and suspects that it is relevant, so:
asciilifeform: juche ~= 'we may be savages, and our trucks have wheels with bamboo spokes, but they are OUR trucks'
asciilifeform: there is an opposite of it, that you don't get to hear about much,
asciilifeform: represented by south kr,
asciilifeform: i forget the original term, but translates to eng as something like 'kowtow' (originally itself a corruption of chinese word)
asciilifeform: means 'bow to the great ones'
asciilifeform: orc elites tend to fall into 'juche' xor 'kowtow'.
mircea_popescu: and you propose juche is defensible ?
asciilifeform: su -- maybe 80% juche; 90s ru -- 90% kowtow ; modern ru -- though i observe from afar -- maybe half.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in the sense where 'let! whole world gang up on our tiny country, we will soldier on' it is not a shining success, no.
mircea_popescu: what happened to "butcher all the males, sell all the females into prostitution", like god intended ?
mircea_popescu: that's the correct solution to "we all started in 5k bc, but zee germanz got tanks first"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i am making an observation here, rather than prescription. (teaching tiny and hopelessly outnumbered eastern monkeystans how to kill billion-man enemy -- is above my pay grade)
mircea_popescu: but what is the observation ?
asciilifeform: that there are two basic flavours of how orc reacts to learning about the white man.
mircea_popescu: ah. yeah, granted.
asciilifeform: assimilationist ('i'ma go to new york and suck white cock the rest of my days') or irredentist ('i'ma learn to ride horses, shoot rifles, and kill as many of them as i can')
mircea_popescu: as for instance the recent princeton thing may have suggested, /me is not at all fond of this juche business.
asciilifeform: not sure how connects ?
Framedragger: (the latter (irredentist) in my mind are filed under 'reactionary' (maybe not the right word), yeah; iac, many fall into these, it seems)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: twist: the part of ru that has any kind of intellectual or even biological future -- is the juche.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what do you suppose their wankery is, besides "oh, we got nothing but teh fighting spirit! princeton lives on!11"
Framedragger: this almost seems worth of an asciilifeformitonic article
Framedragger: worthy*
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that is drastically untrue. the part that has any sort of intellectual future is the butchering of the failed males.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd bet they see ~us~ as the outnumbered zulu. not themselves.
mircea_popescu: this is a delusion shared by all orcs, including the original jucheans.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by the time you have 'failed males' lined up for butchery, it's game over, and no one remembers the internal wank.
asciilifeform: subj is about not-quite-dead people.
mircea_popescu: note that at the time british liutenant fucked "empress of true sky blabla" because he felt like it that day, the english were also "outnumbered"
mircea_popescu: pity headcount doesn;t do anything by itself.
asciilifeform: for instance, who butchered which failed males in korean war ?
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E836F842CBA3F5EFFCD4C2F99AA5A990C0EA103949008980CF48E5F741D11023 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1498...8037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '95.141.113.130 (ssh-rsa key from 95.141.113.130 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown FR R 49)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E836F842CBA3F5EFFCD4C2F99AA5A990C0EA103949008980CF48E5F741D11023 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1769...0853 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '95.141.113.130 (ssh-rsa key from 95.141.113.130 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown FR R 49)
asciilifeform: was, what, 5 mil . from both sides, approx same, iirc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was being prescriptive, not descriptive.
asciilifeform: it is not yet decided which side was 'failed males, for butcher.'
mircea_popescu: the correct path forward to "make america great again" is to kill everyone male and ship everyone female to beijing for auctioning off.
asciilifeform: somewhere in ancient assyria, a great general fell into time warp, went missing !
mircea_popescu: a much milder version of this is how, eg, russia came back ; and certainly how china even became a thing wihin our lifetimes.
asciilifeform: (and is walking around today!!111)
mircea_popescu: when mp was a wee tyke, china was a kind of ghana.
CompanionCube: !$ ssh 95.141.113.130
scriba: ssh banner of 95.141.113.130 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.3p2 Debian-9
mircea_popescu: did i recount the story of the very respectable fellow who lived with us for a week or so early 90s ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: south kr (or, specifically, the american puppet gov there) was quintessential 'kowtow' : their first dictator was quite equiv. to a figure like quisling, even had a medal personally pinned on him by hirohito -- for hunting partisans in the north (partisans of whom kim the 1st was the chief, incidentally)
asciilifeform: which is the 'failed males' ?
asciilifeform: i dare say, the ones that put on the cock cages ~voluntarily~ -- are.
mircea_popescu: all the speakers of the failed language.
asciilifeform: if the sun were still shining on the brit empire, and 'no shit , the monkeys are monkeys, we simply haven't gotten around to rendering them for meat and occupying the valuable lands' -- this position would be tenable.
mircea_popescu: hey, what can i tell you. if you were in the town when the town caught a little fire, uncle celestial teapot wants you. noli turbare circulos meos may work, but just as well may not work.
mircea_popescu: merv, or generally the mongol reduction of persia from a coupla million to a coupla hundred thousand is the fundamental civilisational act. not the building of the scum, but the purging of it. much like "writing prb" is not an achievement in computer science ; but purging it into trb is.
asciilifeform: garbagecollector lol
mircea_popescu: not even. selector.
asciilifeform: but, upstack : it is not yet clear which the 'failed language' is.
asciilifeform: not until game properly over.
mircea_popescu: well, hopefully it becomes.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/04/majority-black-ferguson-missouri-re-elects-white-man-as-mayor/ << Qntra - Majority Black Ferguson Missouri Re-Elects White Man As Mayor
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-05#1638106 << whatever the defaults. and before anyone says "why didn't you backup" -- I do have a mysqldump containing most of the articles. missing the last few between last dump and system death.
a111: Logged on 2017-04-05 18:06 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron what format is the mysql database stored as, sql ? its native binary whatever it is ?
mircea_popescu: reinstating from the dump is easy, just go into the bash and say mysql < file
danielpbarron: biggest hurdle is getting my hands on a copy of mp-wp
mircea_popescu: ugh. why ?
mircea_popescu: who was maintaining that thing anyway!
shinohai: danielpbarron: Didn't I give yu a copy?
danielpbarron: i don't have a copy. maybe freenode dropped a line idk
danielpbarron: also i've been banging my head against a wall trying to figure out how to get LILO to work (should have taken notes the first time!!)
shinohai checks his archives
danielpbarron: LILO is the last thing in my way of publishing a gentoo-quest for eulora recipe
asciilifeform: lilo is pretty well documented
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: or are we talking about exotic iron here
mircea_popescu also uses lilo, what dun werk ?
CompanionCube: any particular reason for lilo over syslinux or grub?
danielpbarron: i don't think it's exotic. hp xw9400 workstation
danielpbarron: lilo drags in way less code than grub
CompanionCube: true, but so does <nearly any bootloader>
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: phun phakt : that thing uses a relabeled remake of one of my favourite tyan mobos.
danielpbarron: while on that subject: i hear it has hardware raid built in. do you recommend using this?
mircea_popescu: CompanionCube grub is large.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: mine had an empty pad where the raid oughta be, so i have nfi
CompanionCube would go for syslinux if smallness/simplicity was desired
asciilifeform: it's a what, lsi chip ?
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: i have not tried it personally. but, given the vintage, i suspect that it is same chip as on my 3ware.
mircea_popescu: look lol
asciilifeform: or very similar.
asciilifeform: and will work just as well (which is -- quite well.)
asciilifeform: i.e. true hardware raid.
danielpbarron: i can get lilo to show its kernel select menu, and then i tries over and over again (with seemingly random time before giving up) to load the kernel
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: what are you booting from ?
mircea_popescu: as in kernel panic of nothing ?
asciilifeform: ( the raid ? plain sata ? )
danielpbarron: plain sata
mircea_popescu: "unable to sync kernel panic" anything ?
danielpbarron: the kernel works. i tested it in grub2
danielpbarron: the error code is 0xFF
mircea_popescu: is that from the raid controller ? "unusual device" ?
mircea_popescu: ie, are you sure you put the drive as the FIRST physical device in the "array" ?
mircea_popescu: because otherwise it doesn't loop and fails to find it.
danielpbarron: that's worth checking out
danielpbarron: i have lilo working on this machine infront of me that runs eulora, same hp workstation, but it is using an IDE cable to connect rather than sata
mircea_popescu: iirc that bug was eventually fixed but possibly not in your version.
danielpbarron: yeah lilo needs /boot to be in "the first 1024 cylinders of one of the first 2 drives"
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: what happens if you set your sata (in bios) to 'legacy' mode ?
asciilifeform: (i suspect that your lilo is not built with 'native' sata support)
danielpbarron: mind encrypting the sha512 of that to my key?
shinohai: Sure one sec
danielpbarron: er um, signing it too. or i can send you random string to enclude with it if you want
shinohai: nah gimmie just a sec ill sign it
shinohai: !!key danielpbarron
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, i don't see where i would set 'legacy' mode in my bios
asciilifeform: it's a thing that has 2 modes, 'ahci' and 'legacy' (or 'compatibility')
asciilifeform: tyan has the option
asciilifeform: iirc coreboot(linuxbios) had a flag also
asciilifeform: but i have nfi what hp has.
asciilifeform: (incidentally if you go coreboot, you don't need a bootloader...)
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: mega-advice from asciilifeform's house of pain : back up the eeprom !!!
asciilifeform: before you experiment with handmade firmware.
asciilifeform: i recommend TL866 programmator.
asciilifeform: afaik it is the ONLY ONE with documented interface and something like reasonable linux support.
danielpbarron adds to notes
asciilifeform: prior to it , i had a massive parallel port thing that needed two dozen jumpers moved when you changed chip types, and only really worked well from an emulated dos session.
asciilifeform: threw it out, no regrets.
asciilifeform: the chinese tl866 works for ~99% of known eproms, eeproms, GALs, PALs, micros.
asciilifeform: (it is VERY frustrating when you find that one percent...)
asciilifeform: afaik there is no known alternative to tl866 today other than 'spend a kilo$ and use dedicated winblowz box.'
asciilifeform: (forget about their software)
asciilifeform: ^ read it 'by hand'.
asciilifeform: (writing -- harder; some chips have various unlockisms that have to be waltzed through first, or want a programming-voltage, or both)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: the relevant article, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1066
Framedragger: ah ty!
shinohai: How to make a colorful rats-nest in 5,683 easy steps
asciilifeform: shinohai: ftr that thing takes maybe half hour to lay out on breadboard. if you're out of practice.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: incidentally... if you're a brave man, you can get by without a programmator at all. hot-lift the chip, while box is running, insert blank chip, and reflash.
asciilifeform: if you have a very steady hand, and own a plcc puller (fivebux or so, or look in the very bottom of your oldest toolbox) you can do this safely.
asciilifeform: ( a booted up and warm pc, does not use the bios rom for anything at all. other than when you write to it. )
asciilifeform: this is true since 1992 or so.
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 460569 | Current Difficulty: 4.99635929816E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 461663 | Next Difficulty In: 1094 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 13 hours, 49 minutes, and 47 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> it's a thing that has 2 modes, 'ahci' and 'legacy' (or 'compatibility') << I refer to these modes internally as "James Lafond Presents Baltimore" and "Antebellum Kitchen"
ben_vulpes: > save pbs, it makes us safer
ben_vulpes: > parent with television, it makes your life easier
ben_vulpes: > die in a fire with everything you love
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: what's a pbs
ben_vulpes: "public broadcasting service"
asciilifeform: the thing that tells you when the nukes have dropped ?!
shinohai: pubic broadcasting system
ben_vulpes: no, the thing that plays sesame street so that you can play candy crush instead of parenting
asciilifeform: 'if this were a REAL emergency...'
ben_vulpes: "if you were a REAL human"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i thought the latest fashion is that the ~kid~ plays tetris etc
asciilifeform: while parent -- watches tv
ben_vulpes: i have nfi what is in fashion
asciilifeform: me neither
danielpbarron: oh i heard one of those "if this was a real emergency" things that actually was an "emergency" -- it said a kid was missing, last seen... WITH FATHER
ben_vulpes: outrageous
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: that must be new, in the old dayz radio/tv stations in usa were fined megabux for switching on the emergency box by accident
asciilifeform: (i.e. when nukes had not fallen)
danielpbarron: never heard of amber alert?
asciilifeform: so, danielpbarron , what, did it pop up on ALL public channels ?
danielpbarron: is that just a connecticut thign?
ben_vulpes: oh hey did i successfully turn amber alerts off?
phf: i was about to refresh my openbsd version and discovered that openbsd no longer make/sell a 3-cd set. end of an era
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: where i live they pop up on electric traffic signs (that normally warn of jams, or of how many years of jail drunks get, etc)
danielpbarron: oo maybe my sets are collectables now
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: deed dems
danielpbarron has several versions, unopened
asciilifeform: phf: microshit sponsorship 'grinds slowly but it grinds fine'
ben_vulpes: lol are you one of those numismatic folks?
danielpbarron: shamefully yes
phf: asciilifeform: you some kind of terrorist?
asciilifeform: evidently
ben_vulpes: dia de si
asciilifeform: i find it slightly outrageous that i have a pressed aluminum ratheadlinux from 1990s but not a pressed aluminum gcc4.9 or trb-genesis etc
danielpbarron: i have an opened 5.5, i can start with that
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: can one even get discs 'pressed' anymore?
ben_vulpes: a la lulu?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: a la lulu is SPECIFICALLY NOT IT
asciilifeform: thinkaboutit
danielpbarron: what is the proper way to deed such an item? clearsign the sha512sum ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: and yes - just need min qty of, what, 25,000 or so.
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: look at how mod6 did the turds
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: whole ~point~ is that it's expensive.
asciilifeform: and immutable.
asciilifeform: (it is not in fact practical to modify a pressed aluminum disk, with any current or foreseeable tech. mircea_popescu and asciilifeform had long thread about this at some point)
asciilifeform: this however is not true of a 'burned' disk.
danielpbarron: !!key mod6
ben_vulpes: oh i'm sure i can modify a pressed aluminum disk
asciilifeform: a stamped aluminum cd is second only to mask rom in longevity (i have cd 30+ yrs old) and immutability.
ben_vulpes: perhaps will not spin after
asciilifeform: it laughs at magnetic fields, ionizing radiation, oxygen.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'modify' with microwave oven ain't the sort of modification i was speaking of, no.
ben_vulpes: what is scope of 'modify' in this context; can stick in openly hostile machine?
asciilifeform: nor with angle grinder.
ben_vulpes: 20 TON PRESS
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: modify in this case means 'flip chosen bits'
phf: well, i bought 5.9 "while supplies last", though i believe they are rolling out 6.1 next
asciilifeform: incidentally danielpbarron were these actual pressed cd ?
asciilifeform: to begin with
danielpbarron: i bought for exactly these reasons you are going over, back when obsd was still in favor here
asciilifeform: was there any kind of announcement, e.g. 'we stopped because Nobody Wants and Expensive' ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> the thing that tells you when the nukes have dropped ?! << the original inventors of the telethon
phf: they are nifty cds. with artwork and "theme" and a bonus mp3 that somehow fits the theme. the works. oldschool artifact
danielpbarron: i stopped paying much attention to obsd a year+ ago
danielpbarron: i also have a bunch of posters
danielpbarron: actually i'm wearing the hoodie right now, hah
asciilifeform: lulzy/numismatic; i never had a linux/bsd poster, or cd set, or statue, etc
danielpbarron: says openbsd in a "jesus fish" that's redesigned to look like a rocket
asciilifeform: all i have is a plush stuffed freebsd devil -- and only because old gf gave me.
asciilifeform: (complete with plush trident, no less.)
ben_vulpes: in other epic fucking lulz, us customs and border handed down a 10MM penalty for violating the Jones Act
ben_vulpes: cannot use foreign flagged vessels to transport goods between points in the us
ben_vulpes: points in question?
ben_vulpes: gulf of mexico and alaska.
ben_vulpes: tahp kek.
ben_vulpes: coulda taken the rig in question by law, but kindly agreed to a 10MM fine.
asciilifeform: 'penalties. illegal transport: 1 $. not being chinese while doing it : 9,999,999 $ .'
phf: asciilifeform: i can't find any announcement. only mention is on the front page, everywhere else it's same as it's always been
asciilifeform: 'Only two remote holes in the default install, in a heck of a long time!' -- openbsd www. lulzy.
asciilifeform: https://www.openbsdstore.com seems to offer cd. strictly 5.9.
phf: right, 6.0 also had a cd, i think 5.9 is leftover stock
asciilifeform: i still wonder how come nobody's pressed a disk of blockchain.
asciilifeform: (yes, you will need a stack of disks, what, 15 dvd ? that ain't so much. and it compresses pretty well.)
asciilifeform: things that have no business ever changing, ought to exist on aluminum disk and mask rom.
shinohai: I was actually thinking about it after my last catastrophe
asciilifeform: (and -- paper, when practical.)
asciilifeform: a pressed disk has quite high nre cost but obscenely low unit cost.
asciilifeform: drop'em from airplane.
danielpbarron: oh you mean they don't sell the old ones? that's always been the case. they make a run and sell till they sell out
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: seems like all they're selling right now is old ones
asciilifeform: (next-to-last version)
shinohai imagines eatblock pausing .... "Please insert disk 30 ...."
mircea_popescu: good old days!
asciilifeform: shinohai: well no. but you oughta have a binder with megatonne of old blox.
danielpbarron: i have 5.5 5.6 5.7 and 5.8
asciilifeform: a pressed-blockchain aluminum disk set would help to cool the enthusiasm of idiots pushing for 'pruning', 'tx replacement', whichever lunacies crafted for 'let's make'em forget history'
mircea_popescu: this is not so.
asciilifeform: solely as 'fleet in being' effect
shinohai: They would simply recycle the disks
mircea_popescu: eh, i'm sure they don't imagine the actual blockchain may get lost.
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu is probably right, the beast has no central nervous system
mircea_popescu: they just imagine they may get away with their pretense, is all.
asciilifeform: shinohai: noshit they'd burn however many they can find.
asciilifeform: but as a massively-distributed long-term backup, aluminum is ~unbeaten -- it's probably the only reason asciilifeform was able to find a copy of genera
asciilifeform: (the alpha genera , 7+ yrs ago)
asciilifeform: whereas the various things that lived on tapes -- are near extinction, in many cases.
asciilifeform: ( magnetic writing can last for surprisingly long time, if kept in comfortable conditions -- but not forever. )
mircea_popescu: there is that.
mircea_popescu still recalls fondly when bg press plant came online, late 90s. ALL the pretense of westards re "copyright" died that day.
mircea_popescu: came back later, of course. but for a few years -- everything was available at a quarter a pop.
mircea_popescu: was located in teh bulgaria.
mircea_popescu: possibly the peak of bulgarian tech at the time. those dudes were enamoured with agriculture.
asciilifeform: afaik nothing (not even web server!) beats pressed aluminum for moving-bytes-cheaply.
asciilifeform: to this day.
mircea_popescu: thing ran 100k iron maidens one night. it was awesome.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-fish-and-the-incredible-ingenuity-of-nature/ << Trilema - The fish, and the incredible ingenuity of nature.
shinohai: Tuna looks delicious
ben_vulpes: nerve gas attack in syria
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: and with same obummer gas as 1st.
ben_vulpes: "obummer gas"?
asciilifeform: 'oh but mr.t will CHANGE THINGS!1111' lol
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you already forgot the last one ?
ben_vulpes: i might not have cared enough to register it
a111: Logged on 2016-12-16 04:57 trinque: pretty hard for me to condemn assad while my ass still sits in the country that sold al qaida chemical weapons to be used, then blamed on assad.
asciilifeform: iirc there was even a 'smoking gun' in the clitler emails, but by then 'nobody cares'
asciilifeform: (usg shipped old gas shells to 'moderate rebels' , for phreee, to 'atrocitize' asad)
asciilifeform: in other noose, trump fires bannon...
asciilifeform: the, if you will, 'cuckening'.
asciilifeform: lessee mircea_popescu explain ~this~!
asciilifeform: 'Washington (CNN)Steve Bannon, President Donald Trump's chief strategist, has been removed from his permanent seat at the National Security Council, multiple sources tell CNN, moving the council into a more traditional structure.'
asciilifeform: 'President Donald Trump reorganized his National Security Council on Wednesday, removing chief strategist Stephen Bannon from a key committee and restoring the roles of top intelligence and defense officials...'
asciilifeform: not only that, but he put the cia stooges BACK IN.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform o.O
asciilifeform: i have nfi! but dun appear to be disinfo.
asciilifeform: looks -- actual.
mircea_popescu: ah, put mcmasters in charge of nsc
mircea_popescu: and re-promoted dan coats ? ahahaha.
mircea_popescu: trouble at the palace!
mircea_popescu: anyway, no explaining, ridiculous move.
phf: maybe he's finally been explained
asciilifeform: almost certainly
mircea_popescu: maga significantly less likely.
asciilifeform: 'moderate rebels', ukrs, pantsuit wearers, grantolade eaters, worldwide -- rejoice
mircea_popescu: provided one deems the difference between extremely unlikely and impossible in any sense relevant.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-16 00:43 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: there is no time bound on 'clitler wins'
asciilifeform: looks like -- finally won.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, gas attack Officially Proclaimed (incl. by mr.t) to be asad's.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> sorry i can't hear you over the sound of hillary clinton's pantsuit. << lel
mircea_popescu: i ~utterly hate~ having to tell noobs that.
mircea_popescu: (ro poliwhore (romanians send the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-04#1637413 to politics, as opposed to runt of sons litter) reading english in rwandan at un meeting)
a111: Logged on 2017-04-04 22:32 mircea_popescu: think in terms of that cartoon re final cs class at stanford : "and you are the idiots who didn't get hired in 2nd or 3rd year". same deal, whoring is a fine plan for cut-above-rest 16yo. by the time she's 30 she's either married or too rich to care.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's a thought : some ssh rsa keys appear on VERY MANY different C (and B, and A) ip blocks. like say randomly http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BB80CEE8E532296E5361984A0209C5DE0169809EA68E6D2F8DE43F7A3DC4443A and friends.
mircea_popescu: this'd be a fine indication of infection/nsaization/extremely sloppy opsec corp/whatever.
mircea_popescu: may be worth digging into
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they're all, so far, examples of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1733
asciilifeform: ( identifiable embedded crapola )
asciilifeform: tropos, huawei, hiveap, a few others.
mircea_popescu: using the same ssh key ?!
asciilifeform: there's at least 1 that actually copied the key aha
mircea_popescu: this is prolly worth of a qntra or something. who the fuck copies ssh keys across the field.
asciilifeform: check this out.
asciilifeform: admin / admin
asciilifeform: logs in.
mircea_popescu: ah looks like tiny powerplant, maybe solar on someone's house ?
asciilifeform: 'These settings should only be adjusted by a licensed solar professional'
asciilifeform: poor idiots
mircea_popescu: "Use Enlighten or contact Enphase Energy customer support for a profile change token Serial number: 110939095462 Authorization number: 95477310"
phf: asciilifeform: do you have a set of high dpi (150/200) bitmap fonts for x11 that you use by any chance?
mircea_popescu: so if i change the settings now re eg voltage ima start a battery fire.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you can -- it looks -like -- switch'em all off ,at least.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the new password is now phuctor.
asciilifeform: if you felt like.
mircea_popescu: let 'em learn by typing.
asciilifeform: !$ ssh 141.239.148.243
scriba: ssh banner of 141.239.148.243 as seen on 2016-06-13: SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.1p1 Debian-5
asciilifeform: aaaaha.
CompanionCube: I would say 'what if the owner finds out'...but since they left it at admin/admin...
mircea_popescu: CompanionCube the owner should find out.
shinohai: (- ___ -)
CompanionCube: mircea_popescu: so you're planning to turn the batteries of or something then
asciilifeform: tomorrow's noose: 'nadia henninger and hanno boeck rescue ten thousand insecure solar...'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, it was published in the princeton review!!1
asciilifeform: princetonischer beobachter.
CompanionCube wonders how they would find out. It's not like they'd *notice* a changed password
mircea_popescu: hey, ineptitude is not an excuse from duty. they shouyld find out.
mircea_popescu: not like it's not published.
phf: CompanionCube: they will most likely go and change something 10 months from now, then will spend couple of days searching for "that paper with password"
asciilifeform: i once changed a neighbour's router admin pw to 'pigfucker'
phf: *try and change
asciilifeform: 7 yrs and he never knew.
asciilifeform: never reset it..
mircea_popescu: "it just works"
asciilifeform: on the day i moved away -- it worked still.
asciilifeform: phf: pw is usually trivially reset, with a button. which is why the humane thing to do is to wipe his firmware.
asciilifeform: and when unit is replaced, wipe it again. until learns.
asciilifeform: but who the hell has the patience for this.
CompanionCube: also, shitty web UIs generally do not have that option.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if the item is anything like empire made, the reset button is up on the roof shimmied next to the chimney
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually there's a bunch of similar boxes near where i live
asciilifeform: they are usually close to the electric meter.
mircea_popescu: so basically, the idea here is "enphase energy" simply stamps the same (broken!) ssh key on all its boxes ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: seems like it.
asciilifeform: and default www creds.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this find is yours, qntra it if you feel like
asciilifeform: System has been live since Wed May 30, 2012 08:47 AM CDT Currently 0 W Today 14.6 kWh Past Week 63.0 kWh Since Installation 169 MWh
asciilifeform: ^ above. notbad.
asciilifeform: 'Device Conditions and Controls' shows 126 ! sub-boxes.
asciilifeform: apparently you can slave them.
asciilifeform: looks like we just made henninger a tenured prof
asciilifeform: and boeck, a герой советского союза or sumthing.
asciilifeform: incidentally this find can also be used to demonstrate the massive -ev of solar scamola.
asciilifeform: ( compare 169MWh over 5 yrs, cost from ordinary grid, to whatever 126 of these things cost... )
asciilifeform: this is data you couldn't beat out the vendor with any sized stick.
shinohai reset all their DNS servers to google's
asciilifeform: *out of the
asciilifeform: shinohai: waste of time
shinohai: meant "resets"
asciilifeform: not all have default creds. ( http://165.124.180.22 , does not )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform eh, hardly much of a find.
mircea_popescu: i just linked a link from phuctor stats page.
asciilifeform: it's a find. betcha the earlier link is whole uni. of chicago solar scamatron.
asciilifeform: and betcha it cost'em millions in payola.
asciilifeform: some of it maybe even went to obummer himself.
asciilifeform: (whoknows)
mircea_popescu: well, "cost them". obama gave them 48 mn or some shit, of which they kept 3, the obama-contractor kept 11, the obama-producer kept 16, and the end result was 100ish MW (wthose thigs aren't accurate) over 5 years ie about 5 grand worth of "Clean" power.
mircea_popescu: except it produced so much solid waste it'll take a few GW to clean up to some storable state.
asciilifeform: well yes.
asciilifeform: ( and we had a thread re cost of refining si, etc )
asciilifeform: ^ that's for when we find the windmill ssh key...
asciilifeform: ^ all Framedragger-scan ips having this modulus.
asciilifeform: buncha these.
asciilifeform: ^ 92 (!) subunits.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu dun feel like qntra -- BingoBoingo , then ?
asciilifeform: solar3.uchicago.edu << lol!!
mircea_popescu just chopped up a coupla vanilla beans to sit in rum for eventual rompope
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo shinohai whover's awake.
asciilifeform: the lifetime wattage statistic is what really melts asciilifeform's brain
asciilifeform: we now have solid proof that the thing is -- beyond any possible doubt -- minus-ev
mircea_popescu: for srs. this is actual data, as opposed to the bs that someone publishes.
asciilifeform: oh mircea_popescu will like this:
asciilifeform: worx great
asciilifeform: anybody wanna submit whole list ?
asciilifeform: who is a top perlist
asciilifeform: ( dun need login !! to work )
asciilifeform: they ALL expose wattage, plain.
asciilifeform: lists : when installed, how many kW/h now, how many -- lifetime.
asciilifeform: and how many panels.
asciilifeform: (4th line in table.)
asciilifeform: from this , and with a bit of legwork, could find out how much chump -- and u.s. treasury -- paid for this nonsense.
mircea_popescu: "chump". it's all paid by unfunded future payments which ain't fucking happening.
asciilifeform: the chumper pays upfront, iirc 1/4 of cost.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform working on list.
asciilifeform: oh and betcha they all have debianized ssh ~login~ keys also.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform only 28 items on your pastebin, was supposed to bne more ?
asciilifeform: 28 for this mod.
asciilifeform: is all.
asciilifeform: but these oughta be trivial to scan for, they load plain http wherever exposed on the next.
asciilifeform: if all you want is wattage stats.
asciilifeform: a decent botnet could probably find all of them.
asciilifeform: that currently exist.
asciilifeform: or at least such that were plugged into external ip (why?! -- i have nfi)
hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-06#1638497 << hahahaha. i can imagine w/e princeton folks flipping out between this (if reading logs, and/or chicago cronies panic at them) and the earlier email
a111: Logged on 2017-04-06 00:26 mircea_popescu: anyway. the new password is now phuctor.
asciilifeform: http://www.pjm.com/about-pjm/learning-center/price-ticker.aspx << prices of megawatt-hour in different regions of usa.
asciilifeform: baltimore : 26 $.
mircea_popescu: sounds about right
CompanionCube: wait, you changed the password on multiple ones?
asciilifeform: apr 26, 2011
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform interestingly some don't respond.
asciilifeform: 79.8 MWh produced since !!!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: some probably dead. or -- most likely -- dynamic ip
asciilifeform: a fresh scan will find'em.
mircea_popescu: i dunno we care enough to actually bother. will see what this list tallies up to.
asciilifeform: 80 MW/h is fiddybux!!
asciilifeform: can you picture what 90 panels cost?
asciilifeform: in 2011.
mircea_popescu: certainly much more valid survey than what the pantsuit tribe customarily passes for "research"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can't imagine anyone paid for this.
asciilifeform: the inverters ain't cheap, either.
mircea_popescu: tax breaks.
asciilifeform: 'anyone'
asciilifeform: i can't speak re serious inner-party (above box is 1 of the 3 uni of chicago found so far) but for proles, house owner is expected to front 1/4 - 1/2 of the cost.
asciilifeform: the rest, yes, taxbreak.
mircea_popescu: hanbot lulz.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu -- maybe worth a trilema piece ?
mircea_popescu: yeah ima write it.
mircea_popescu: pretty lulzy.
asciilifeform: if you're archiving, archive the http://IP_ADDR/inventory?locale=en also -- it has the panel install dates.
asciilifeform awaits the delectable butthurts
a111: Logged on 2017-04-06 00:25 phf: asciilifeform: do you have a set of high dpi (150/200) bitmap fonts for x11 that you use by any chance?
asciilifeform: i wish !!
asciilifeform: phf: do you ?
asciilifeform: meanwhile, on the ethertard planet : https://archive.is/0Ypri
phf: i think i'm going to not do computers anymore. i'm done.
asciilifeform: finally landed that coveted lighthouse keeper job phf ?
doppler: sign me up too
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6 ? << need some perl? <+mircea_popescu> asciilifeform working on list. << looks like mp is on it.
mod6: werd
asciilifeform: 'I regret to announce as cofounder of Matchpool that I am leaving this project. I was involved in architecting Matchpool, writing the white paper and writing the first draft of the smart contracts. I was not involved in the implementation of the ICO. I have asked internally what is going on with the funds you sent to Matchpool, but have not received a satisfactory answer....
asciilifeform: Over the last two days 37500 ETH has been withdrawn from the multisig wallet by the CEO, Yonatan Ben Shimon without any explanation or announcement due to the need for "hedging". Yonatan keeps claiming he's working with Bitcoin Suisse and it's all okay, but so far I haven't seen any evidence of this. I suggest you all demand an explanation and keep a close watch. In all likelihood your guppies are worthless- the terms and conditions
asciilifeform: seem deliberately designed to prevent contributors having legal recourse in the case of misuse of your money. In either event, I believe the standards of transparency and integrity in this organization are well below what is needed for a blockchain project, which is why I can no longer a part of it.'
asciilifeform: ^ pasted for tehl0gz.
asciilifeform had never heard of this particular set of heathens prior, but it is lulzy.
asciilifeform: what, for instance, were 'guppies' ?
asciilifeform brb, pet
shinohai: Guppies are food for the sharks yo!
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> if mircea_popescu dun feel like qntra -- BingoBoingo , then ? << I can/will qntra, but in the future when you are lulzing about the details of a thing and are unsure if editor is awake/digging-liming holes/trying to get older sober lady to 13th step him, maybe consider writing a qntra while you have and are playing with the details? Makes for more timely publication when editor is awake? Publication can happen faster when
BingoBoingo: editor is verifying details in submission lulzed at in logs than when reconstructing them...
mircea_popescu: give it a moment.
shinohai was awake, but is rather unsure about Qntra submissions of late
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> anyway, no explaining, ridiculous move. << perhaps move to lure pantsuits into self hanging? Either that or clog fake news circuit.
BingoBoingo: With media favorite Katie Stewart out of whiteouse and fundraising, media has to eat intrigue actually generated by Trump
BingoBoingo: In other news, Trumpreich endorsed by King of Jordan.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/04/trump-annouces-end-to-hussein-bahamas-era-policy-of-announcing-military-plans-months-in-advance/ << Qntra - Trump Annouces End To Hussein Bahamas Era Policy Of Announcing Military Plans Months In Advance
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lulz of all time : you can get further victims AS THEY ARE INDEXED BY GOOGLE through for instance searching for "800-00038-r08" or such strings. you get a very lulzy welcome if selecting eg "deutshc" : everything's "translation missing"
BingoBoingo: In still further lulz, professionally black people criticize black people of Ferguson https://archive.is/yqwEV
a111: Logged on 2017-04-06 02:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lulz of all time : you can get further victims AS THEY ARE INDEXED BY GOOGLE through for instance searching for "800-00038-r08" or such strings. you get a very lulzy welcome if selecting eg "deutshc" : everything's "translation missing"
mircea_popescu: ridoinculous.
mircea_popescu: well my stab at it is published.
mircea_popescu: ample room for more people to dig more lulz if so inclined.
asciilifeform: no mention of how most of'em belong to uni of chicago
asciilifeform: put footnote ?
asciilifeform: imho it is a deep lol
BingoBoingo: Or comment...
mircea_popescu: comment worx
shinohai: BingoBoingo: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/k35HX/?raw=true (Actually I do have a lulzy Qntra for this evening)
BingoBoingo: Sometimes when you lol at a deeptail, it is easiest to write up the lollercoaster yourself.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: writing is hardwork!
mircea_popescu has revised some numbers, it turns out microinverters are generally about 200W rather than the more kw style stuff he remembered from youth
BingoBoingo: Loading bricks is hard work. Writing is disciplined work.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: these are per-panel
asciilifeform: so 200W is correct
asciilifeform: (generally biggest you can buy is 200)
mircea_popescu: apparently 180 to 220W is 90% of the market.
mircea_popescu: anyway, so 200W unit produced 731 Wh/day on 5year average
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/04/prudes-attack-pence-security-detail/ << Qntra - Prudes Attack Pence Security Detail
trinque: "though no word was available as to whether the agent and his female companion explored a full range of disciplinary actions on their own before the tryst was interrupted." << top kek
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 731 Wh is approx enough to run.. a pogo.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-incidental-humiliation-of-obamas-clean-energy-policies-marc-andreessens-internet-of-farts-and-other-such-comedic-gold-bricks/ << Trilema - The incidental humiliation of Obama's "clean energy" policies ; Marc Andreessen's Internet of Farts and other such comedic gold bricks.
asciilifeform: for 24h.
shinohai: !~tyvm
jhvh1: shinohai: Error: "tyvm" is not a valid command.
BingoBoingo: ty shinohai
shinohai: !~ty
jhvh1: You are very welcome Daddy
shinohai: and u BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo did add not on Pence's own prudishness
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: phun phakt, solar cells quickly disappear under grime, dead leaves, bird shit, unless regularly cleaned (~nobody cleans.)
asciilifeform: typical american residential roof is not 'user friendly', not flat.
mircea_popescu: also added some clarification footnotes etc.
asciilifeform: thing is apparently ~exactly~ like led light bulb.
asciilifeform threw out 7th one this year, not long ago.
mircea_popescu: phf asciilifeform to make you both feel better : sat i'm going to a "russian rock concert" at this massage parlour slash blinyi restaurant run by a buncha russian chicks.
shinohai hopes mircea_popescu 's Russian chicks aren't anti-semitic
mircea_popescu: why ? i'm no joo.
shinohai: They might read trilema, see mircea_popescu in earlier days with joofro and start pogrom
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform answer't.
asciilifeform: aah neato
mircea_popescu: only 660 or so mIs, say about half mil total worth or so
mircea_popescu: mebbe a whole mil.
asciilifeform: betcha so much as the installation of a new ~table leg~ at, e.g., univ. of chicago, costs moar than that.
asciilifeform: (and they have, what, 400 of the panels)
asciilifeform: in other lulz, gzipped (individually) blox 0 ... 459205 take up:
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