Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-03-08 | 2017-03-10 → ↓
BingoBoingo: !~bcstats
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 456437 | Current Difficulty: 4.6076935809E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 457631 | Next Difficulty In: 1194 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 3 hours, 23 minutes, and 38 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
shinohai: !!up reddead23
deedbot: reddead23 voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: '"If the President is going to make outlandish claims like this in the future, he needs to know he will be exposed and high-ranking people within the US government -- like the director of our intelligence agencies and the FBI -- will be forced to say the President wasn't telling the truth," the California Democrat said.'
asciilifeform: didjaknow.
asciilifeform: meanwhile, elsewhere in monkeystan,
asciilifeform: 'The disclosures “equip our adversaries with tools and information to do us harm,” said Ryan Trapani, a spokesman for the C.I.A. He added that the C.I.A. is legally prohibited from spying on individuals in the United States and “does not do so.”'
asciilifeform: ^ break with tradition, where 'neither confirm nor deny'
mircea_popescu: if california democrats think they're going to escape, they need to know they're getting fucked.
asciilifeform: escape?
mircea_popescu: yeah. there's this readily self-bestowed delusion of security.
mircea_popescu: like im not gonna fuck them with the wide side of the toiulet plunger.
asciilifeform: i can only suppose that the last plunger mircea_popescu used, was a bit too thin
asciilifeform: so they did not notice.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the dead flea tells no tales
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the surviving flea imagines itself the first and only flea history has seen.
mircea_popescu: such is the unspeakable advantage of decerebrated life.
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623585 << i humbly think there is a bit of a false dichotomy happening here (first approximation of what "here" is could be, "mircea_popescu's head.") either X is doing useful work for tmsr, or X is necessarily wasting time doing whatever-X-but-not-tmsr'y things (including "having dayjob(s)", "large side-project", etc.)
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 01:56 asciilifeform: while we have this thread: i often come back in my head to the question of why folx visit, and then choose to go back to being-sad.
Framedragger: this works to strengthen the notion that tmsr is apex of importance/awesomeness/etc.; as otherwise one would be exposed to the possibility that "maybe we're not so important here anyway." :)
Framedragger: not to bait or anything - i mean this charitably and honestly. it's just not the most productive approach, imho.
mircea_popescu: how is the false dichotomy work ?
Framedragger: it's just a simple xor.
Framedragger: you mean reasons for its existence?
Framedragger: psychological reassurance, for one.
mircea_popescu: this is a category, the false dichotomy. it's defined, an actual thing. you know, if you say this is an apple and i ask how's it an apple you show it matches the salient parts of the definition.
mircea_popescu: is there a third alternative ? are the two lobes really the same thing ? what makes it false ?
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623585 << this is one way to exemplify it: repeated amazement that "useful intelligent folks *leave*".
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 01:56 asciilifeform: while we have this thread: i often come back in my head to the question of why folx visit, and then choose to go back to being-sad.
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between an inconvenient dichotomy (a purely political notion) and a false dichotomy, just like there's a difference between a painful triangle lodged up your ass and an escherian construction that may only exist on paper.
Framedragger: you're right, ultimately i'm challenged to answer "what is the middle, then", if i claim the falseness. and i (again) do not have much recourse here. i only have individual anecdata of "intelligent folks doing their own thing", completely disjoint from tmsr.
mircea_popescu: and completely useless in any sense worth the mention.
mircea_popescu: humanity decayed into an apparently botomless pit of liquid shit on the lead wings of three centuries worth of "intelligent" folks doing "their own thing" away from the republic.
mircea_popescu: conceivably a time will come when they've had enough of the gargle.
Framedragger: is there a definition of usefulness that you'd agree to? (note, if it refers to tmsr, it's circular, of course)
mircea_popescu: i'm not sure it can be formulated in a too compact manner.
Framedragger: yeah, i suppose so - it's not a small thing to ask for at any rate...
mircea_popescu: we could go by proxy -- if inequality diminishes from one generation to the next, it can be broadly said that the generation that passed was useless below the point of nullity. was anti-useful.
Framedragger: heh, this is close to entropy (and inequality as 1/entropy)
phf: amazement is not necessarily about "why are useful folks ignore how obviously awesome tmsr is and leave"?
mircea_popescu: i suppose. it'd have to be close to the fundamentals , as it is fundamental.
Framedragger: this only works in aggregate form though, i guess - difficult to assess at individual level. (but maybe that's the point.)
phf: for every theo de raadt where you could argue some kind of "openbsd vs tmsr", there's thousands of potentially useful folks who waste their time with "job" and "side projects", that never amount to anything
mircea_popescu: phf well yes, buyt he gets to define his terms in pursuit of his theory.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the individual's to assess the individual level, obviously.
phf: in this case amazement could be, "if nothing else, why then ~at the very least~ not tmsr"?
phf: and i will double down on "never amount to anything", even if to the bulk of those people busy activity might feel very meaningful. "i'm watching netflix, it's important to relax!" etc.
mircea_popescu: it could also be "if they think they're so smart, they could at least take a step further than the supposed geniuses of the left WHO DO NOT DARE TRY ARGUE THE POINT, and present their objections."
Framedragger: phf: i agree with the latter. if nothing else - why not; sure. and sure, a *lot* of busy activity reduces to netflix in one way or another.
Framedragger: but not all. however, this is a shitty position to argue for. :(
Framedragger: (i.e., weak.)
Framedragger: so, i dunno, fuck.
mircea_popescu: lol are you enjoying this process yet ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which point is it that which 'genius of the left' did not dare to argue ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that the left may even be a thing, for instance.
mircea_popescu: heck, no further than last week, that susan sontag is not a moron without remainder
mircea_popescu: there's at least ten thousand hooks they could readily, just as soon as they find their words, engage with.
mircea_popescu: should there be any break in sight off the incessant "premier asstalking and talking in our ass institutions in the world!!1"
asciilifeform: since when does inquisitor engage in anything like serious debate with heretic ?
mircea_popescu: speaking of which, anyone punished newb slavegirl to asstalk ? you take a flexible 1 inch tube, about a meter long, one part goes in her mouth, the other in her ass, she proceeds to talk.
asciilifeform: at last, somebody built asciilifeform's Arse-Mouth-System!11111
mircea_popescu: no, that's when you have one eat out the other, different.
mircea_popescu: or isn't it ?
phf: asciilifeform: pontius pilate
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: always enjoy this!
Framedragger: 'nyway, it's hard to argue for my shitty 'point'. i'll just add meanwhile that i too do not think that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623540 was/is waste - some knowledge was gained, and it's indeed not restrained to technical knowledge :)
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 01:39 phf: we did just burn significant amount of humint on reimplementing irc bots and log servers
mircea_popescu: indeed. consider -- how the above point that started this convo would have been to be phrased, had Framedragger NOT engaged in logbuilding ?
mircea_popescu: works if you work it, to borrow a bbism
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform o btw, you familiar with the leftovers of the periodic medieval "debates" with the jews, which kept having to end up in draws because lol.
mircea_popescu: "draws".
Framedragger: re. priorities and (natural) lack of 'global amazing konsensus priority list of shit to do', in my humble and very noob mind they are something like; 'p'; gossipd or partial iteration towards it; invoicing system; << these three'd useful for outside-tmsr interests fo sho; and nfi re. trb, as on the one hand it's supposed to be super important,
Framedragger: but on the other hand it's a lot of work on monolith with unclear long-term gains, especially given alf's point that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623480
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 01:17 asciilifeform: paradoxically a trb-i is light years easier than 'cleaned trb'
Framedragger: << maybe useful for noobs looking for stuff to help with, but evidently they're not.
Framedragger intends to set his mind to some p2p/gossipd stuff come summer, if moon phase aligns with karma etc.
phf: i don't think it was a waste from the whole Man of Knowledge perspective. i derived a lot of value building one, which makes me think so did others when they built theirs.
phf: but i still feel like it was a "waste" in a sense that usually you don't apply same educational methods on battlefield as you do in a lyceum.
mircea_popescu: you don't ?
mircea_popescu: funny, i just an hour ago talked the matter through with a girl training her very first girls, and it turned out on examination that actually... we do.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623585 <- in my opinion "intelligence" is only part of the story here; the split (between who stays/goes) is made less on intelligence lines and more on allegiance lines basically; another way to say it would be that those leaving have already invested themselves too much into various values that are in contradiction with tmsr, hence they will leave, intelligence has nothing to do with it
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 01:56 asciilifeform: while we have this thread: i often come back in my head to the question of why folx visit, and then choose to go back to being-sad.
diana_coman: I suppose I would say that "because they are not sad enough" but rather quite fine
mircea_popescu: alternatively i could simply declare all that vanity, and propose some people have more of a millstone to break to bits than others.
diana_coman: what is "all that" that you define as vanity?
mircea_popescu: after all what is http://btcbase.org/log/2014-08-12#792148 above and beyond self infatuation ?
a111: Logged on 2014-08-12 02:19 TimSwanson: Because that's how normal debates work
diana_coman: declare*
mircea_popescu: diana_coman their alternative investments ; sum total thereof.
Framedragger: i, too, get confused re. demarcation lines of the two: on the one hand it's supposed to be battlefield against hitler, but on the other hand folks agree that it's also a good place to employ experimental stuff one always wanted to try, for doing things. and i agree with the latter. but then when that stuff stumbles on an issue (because it's fucking experimental), people get outraged.
diana_coman: works, yes; I don't find anything against it
Framedragger: que es que tu veux dire?
diana_coman: ftr that "because that's how normal debates work" sounds like....idiocy
mircea_popescu: Framedragger the most pressing matter to my eyes right now is getting ext2/ext4 benchmarked for our specified purpose.
mircea_popescu: a lot actually hangs from it.
Framedragger: for the fs db, eh. hm.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman well, vanity in any light it didn't bring from home... does.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger for the record alf is wrong in the line you quote. he perceives things that way because he proceeds from nonsensical, outright impossible priors. "if i had a clear idea of what i was doing, i could do it in a week"
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-17#1408758 << >> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623743 << deep fear of judgment entirely on one's own merits
a111: Logged on 2016-02-17 21:16 trinque: how do you know who you are if nobody tells you?
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 17:40 mircea_popescu: after all what is http://btcbase.org/log/2014-08-12#792148 above and beyond self infatuation ?
mircea_popescu: "this examination didn't come with a scoring sheet!! alert!!! how are we to train for the examination111!!!"
phf: mircea_popescu: well, on the battlefield you're the events are unfolding in real time and timing is important. in lyceum you can do things at leisure. in the later case you decide how long you have for the lesson, in the first case the enemy does
mircea_popescu: diana_coman after all, if the alternative investments weren't that, they'd naturally fold right in, becoming logreaders suo modo. in this view the "who are you" question reflects exactly this, "what of your previous investments is actually meaningful ?"
mircea_popescu: by which light we see the failure to answer and the failure to thrive are not at all unrelated, but really the same thing.
mircea_popescu: phf i guess i'm impatient enough this difference does not flower in my case.
phf: huh, i thought it's because you like to play turn based strategies, so the enemy timing is rarely an issue
diana_coman: in principle there could be cases (possibly unknown after all) of intelligent people who READ the log and decided it was not for them; but myeah
mircea_popescu: well, alf's girl, yes ? quite the mystery!
mircea_popescu: phf ah, that's unrelated.
trinque: diana_coman: kinda depends on whether intelligence describes some internal property or is judged by others externally, which circles right back to the top of the thread.
trinque: politics seeming to be a big driver of the evolution of human intelligence, I don't see how someone who says "but no, the arena is not for me" can be said intelligent.
trinque: which is no slight to alf's lady. maybe she takes part in the republic as part of his house.
mircea_popescu: eh, intelligence is a mess of a concept.
ben_vulpes: taking part in the republic, also a mess of a concept.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623540 << something something defense in breadth
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 01:39 phf: we did just burn significant amount of humint on reimplementing irc bots and log servers
mircea_popescu: certainly.
trinque: pfff I wrote and released one, and so far we've got one re-use of teh code
mircea_popescu: moreover by design who would know ALL who participate ? nobody. and consequently...
ben_vulpes can tick off at least 3 republicans not in chan
mircea_popescu: trinque don't worry, alf's been hawking ssh pipes and so far idem.
trinque: lol, oh right!
trinque goes to generate a key
mircea_popescu: utility is not to be judged by consumption!
ben_vulpes: trinque: 3 bots operated by one man are not 'in breadth'
trinque: oh? the maintainer of supybot is in chan?
trinque: or did someone "just want to python"
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: and oh, hey, they all hang off one fleanode. if you want to have crying party, can start with that
mircea_popescu: supybot is still maintained ?!
ben_vulpes: trinque: not to knock what you've built, or aggrandize myself
trinque: I thought you *had* used the thing
trinque: at any rate, unimportant
ben_vulpes: well now i've lost the frame
mircea_popescu: yeah what are you talking about ?
mircea_popescu can't quite map the 3 bots 1 man thing. who ?
asciilifeform utterly lost in this log
mircea_popescu: that's because you stepped away just as the firehose was going towards 30 lines/minute. you'll be stuck catching up for hours now.
ben_vulpes: unimportant, like trinque said
trinque: I took a shot at folks present for imitating me and spinning up their own bot rather than writing patches for the only bot in a V tree, but apparently it was buckshot
mircea_popescu: i thought eg candy used your what's it called.
trinque: yeh ben_vulpes used it
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: has an html wrapper around his irc bouncer, phf's is custom (afaik), no idea what jhvh1 and lobbes run
phf: trinque: a111 was running before ircbot/logbot, where's all the lisp bots since (both of ben_vulpes's bots) are using it
trinque: phf also used pieces
ben_vulpes: i suspect a pythong?
trinque: phf actually gave me snippets at first to start with
mircea_popescu: well what other bots ? lobbes ' is older than deedbot iirc. you got 100% of bots made after release, can't complain.
Framedragger: trinque: the naked truth of it is, i have little experience with lisp, of which "shipped to production" amounts to zero. wanted a bot. wrote modules for sopelbot which turns out to be reliable enough. :)
mircea_popescu: phf you know it's whereas not where's.
phf: yeesh
mircea_popescu: anyway, really, nothing wrong with code heterogenity. if guy wants to write boit out of used dildos, what's anyone's loss.
phf: !#s from:phf "where's"
asciilifeform: one of the wins from 'N redundant bots' is that nobody has to rely/build on the one made from used dildo
mircea_popescu: phf aha. screaming phf fingerprint. gotta be careful with that, you know. that's how the smart secretary caught her boss in carambolages.
ben_vulpes: the other point i didn't get to make is that i dont' buy the 'personal failing' line; redundancy uber alles
mircea_popescu: "but ben_vulpes someone here already fucked a girl, why would you fuck any other ones."
asciilifeform: friend: 'i got you a book for your bday' -- chukcha: 'i already HAVE a book'
trinque: completely nonsensical comparison
phf: ben_vulpes: if a111 got moved to sbcl earlier, the redundancy conversation would not have happened, and people happily would be writing trb code instead
mircea_popescu: trinque no, it has its merits. of course if you're discussing X topic there will be a THE book, also, this isn't arguing against that.
mircea_popescu: phf no fucking way ?
trinque: I don't see that python or any of its kind have any future
ben_vulpes: defense in breadth.
trinque: it's a steaming mess of badly written C
mircea_popescu: i am pretty confident this discussion would have occured with different examples.
trinque: ben_vulpes: how the hell am I defending myself by using as many filthy whores as possible?
ben_vulpes: phf: and then there would be only one logger, which is not in my book the best of worlds.
asciilifeform: trinque has a mega-point, and unfortunately it applies to ~all of our tooling.
trinque: aha.
mircea_popescu: trinque just like me.
ben_vulpes: trinque: has nothing to do with language choice.
trinque: ben_vulpes: people could run as many loggers as they want, written in the simplest manner, and then moved on with our lives
trinque: you're talking past the point
ben_vulpes: well i miss the point then, try it like i'm five?
asciilifeform: gotta underscore trinque's observation, PYTHON IS NOT A LANGUAGE, it is a specific proggy, maintained by specific lamers
asciilifeform: there aren't, in any meaningful sense, multiple implementations.
mircea_popescu: ah, that.
asciilifeform: phf's 'this commonlisptron suxxx, i'ma use another' won't work in pythonistan.
trinque: it's a massive pile of gendercommmit and hax
mircea_popescu: meanwhile i ended up with a python dependency via blender ;/ i dun think it's going anywhere.
mircea_popescu: 2.8 or w/e we ended up freezing.
trinque: at least there you use the outputs and don't run the toolchain all day eh?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, it does some exporting gnarl. diana_coman published a recipe, i can dig it up if you wish
asciilifeform: and incidentally freezing also doesn't solve the problem -- there is no written standard, and if there were, it would fill a room and be quite unreadable
asciilifeform: standard cannot be a bolt-on.
trinque: not only is python not a language, it was conceived by people who had OPPOSED political views to the republic
trinque: it is born of some document the dutchie wrote about "programmig is 4 everybody!"
mircea_popescu: yeah but i know of no alternate solution capable of taking blender items and spitting them into eulora.
trinque: in the absense of alternative it's totally reasonable
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is problematic, given http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1606950
a111: Logged on 2017-01-26 02:33 mircea_popescu: this wedge will not prevail. i'll do without any milk, forever.
mircea_popescu: this being a phenomenal case of "everybody" -- game graphic artists are a) some of the least literate dogs in carnation and b) some of the people with the most complex needs from computers. WAY ahead "computer engineers" of the silicon valley ilk, aka webtards.
asciilifeform: incidentally it is how i ended up with a python proggy (phuctor frontend)
asciilifeform: there was gpg parse library.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform hey, client is for teh players not for me.
asciilifeform: ^ is how programmers even sleep at night
asciilifeform: 'this crud is for the (l)users, not me, wtf'
mircea_popescu: what'd you have me do, you know ?
mircea_popescu: what is the republican scripting language for idiots (tm) ?
ben_vulpes: i have never understood what 'scripting language' was
trinque: scheme was pretty good for gimp iirc
mircea_popescu: consider the case at hand. artist must produce some binary files.
mircea_popescu: trinque understand : none of these folks had any idea of the mathematical representation subiacent any geometric render. to their eyes, the computer cheats when what they thought alligned planes turn out to have holes between.
mircea_popescu: scheme isn't happening.
mircea_popescu: NO IDEA whatsoever of that most fundamental concept of analysis, which is to say "i can write chicken scribblings down and answer FOR A FACTY whether point q is equal to point p"
mircea_popescu: i have no clue how they escaped highschool, intellectually speaking. but here they be.
trinque: ben_vulpes makes an excellent point elsewhere, should restate here
trinque: I said to him "students may learn swordplay but may not tell us the fork in their hands is a sword"
ben_vulpes: oh i'm up
mircea_popescu is waiting patiently.
ben_vulpes: trinque sez, 'running around with phorkz not defense in breadth'
ben_vulpes: 'some regiments may be cut to ribbons and run on contact, but that does not make them useless'
mircea_popescu: anyone familiar with the story of the war in afghanistan ?
mircea_popescu: the 1800s british ones i mean.
ben_vulpes: not i
mircea_popescu: well, the "great race" aha this run to the pacific by russia and the uk settled down eventually with the brits holding india and the russians holding siberia. afghanistan-buffer state.
mircea_popescu: at some point lytter i think it was decided the afghanis are befallen under russian spell and invaded.
mircea_popescu: they had to burn the crops, kill the cows, tear villages stone from stone. losses -- immense, on both sides.
mircea_popescu: it was the beginning of the end of the british colonial empire. it crashed, where empires come to day, in that god forsaken asshole of the world where fork-bearing regiments are cut to shreds and don't run off on contact. or at all.
trinque: I can see it.
phf: "you've a great game, a noble game, before you"
ben_vulpes: onlooker: close the tab and read the logs proper
ben_vulpes: or grow up and get a bouncer
ben_vulpes: relatedly, from #elsewhere, "dude shows up with a thousand farmers on camels. what, tell him to fuck off?"
mircea_popescu: is he gone to service the camels ?
asciilifeform: trinque: you're in
asciilifeform: lemme know if worx
trinque: will do, I'll set up autossh in just a bit
asciilifeform: trinque et al : the 1 thing that still direly needs testing re 'wires' is for somebody to bring up a fresh node entirely via same
phf: (if nobody else steps up, i'm going to bring one up in a day or two)
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588180 << i won't have time in the nearest future, but for anyone who may be looking into symlinks, this may be useful: https://lwn.net/Articles/650786/
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 06:41 mircea_popescu: this way you don't actually have to ~index~ anything, if you wish to see where txn 1234567890 was included in a block, you go to /12/34/56/7890 which points to block x
Framedragger: 1. mind PATH_MAX (4096 chars); 2. maximum number of symlinks in single path: 40 (hard limit).
mircea_popescu: ahaha what.
Framedragger: (seems to have been *8* in old kernels!)
mircea_popescu: WHO THE FUCK THINKS LIKE T?HIS
Framedragger: well there ya go. :)
mircea_popescu: something's amiss, im sure i have directories with more than 40 symlionks
Framedragger: oh wait, i phrased this incorrectly while at the same time horribly mis-reading: sorry, this is about max depth of path composed of symlinks.
Framedragger: for a minute i thought (don't know why) that what is *additionally* needed is the capability to have paths of /symlinks/to/symlinks/.
mircea_popescu: ah. no, that is correctly within the limit, as designed we'd have under 8 anyway
Framedragger: instead, it's "just" a matter of having a however-deep directory tree with symlinks as the leaves.
Framedragger: ya, ok.
asciilifeform: the more worrisome bit is that there is NO write aggregation (iirc i mentioned this before)
asciilifeform: and lack of aggregation is the reason the old shitdb is slow in the 1st place
asciilifeform: (ext4 , asked to write 10,000 files/symlinks, will do the journal dance ~each~ time, rather than once-at-the-end)
asciilifeform: there is no ready way to make it aware of 'these N writes are to happen at-once'
asciilifeform: and incidentally this will also change the semantics of the block-saver, unless somehow kludged around (e.g. via locking)
mircea_popescu: you repeat halfway of the discussion, "here is what i said lalala i can't hear anyone"
mircea_popescu: linking would be better than this. having digested what was said better still.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aite, meanwhile i found the prev thread: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-26#1618705
a111: Logged on 2017-02-26 19:27 mircea_popescu: the other problem is that a good db fix is a very large project, because bitcoin is written insanely. and our fs db isn't moving, last i heard a month ago someone was going to try and profile an extx
mircea_popescu: a large part of the "not writing properly" can actually be fixed via configs for the fs, rather than using the "middle of the road" stuff shipped with eg ubuntu.
shinohai: asciilifeform: still getting bad signature when trying to verify your patchset ... (imported your key from deedbot)
mircea_popescu: how large a part is an open question, but it obviously comes after establishing whether the would-be airplane is even larger than a breadbox in the first place
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i did go and sift through the docs, found 0 mention of write aggregation as an option
asciilifeform: later tonight, will begin reading the actual src
asciilifeform: expect it to take a while.
mircea_popescu: not as such, no. but you can wedge it in through, eg, making it commit in batches
mircea_popescu: or who knows how the fuck else -- rewriting the committer, even.
mircea_popescu: in short this problem isn't yet salient.
asciilifeform: if you gotta actually break compatibility with ext4 and write new kernelspace driver -- may as well design proper (b-tree) fs for trb.
asciilifeform: using traditional fs exposes you to 10,000s of lines of ???.
mircea_popescu: there's always that.
asciilifeform: shinohai: post the patch , the key, and the signature plox
asciilifeform: shinohai: bitwise, the way you got'em, no browser cut'n'paste crapolade .
Framedragger: asciilifeform: on top of 'transactions', postgres has 'checkpoint' parameter. but you probably won't like it because of the whole 'not turning off fsync' thing
Framedragger: but i do hope you're doing the former, i mean i assumed so. that's the lowest-hanging fruit re. 'how do i do batch writes to db'
shinohai: Actually lemme check one more thing before I do ......
Framedragger: (and if you now say 'db is lost cause anyway' while not linking to code/config *again*, i'll grit teeth angrily)
asciilifeform: Framedragger: we had this thread
Framedragger: but with transactions, you can be sure that once it returns, it will have written to disk. fsync can still be on. (iirc).
Framedragger: (but maybe you covered that, too, and i forgot in logs.)
asciilifeform bbl, meat
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: re. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-22#1588180 , for my elucidation, so would the symlinks just point to a particular 1MB block file?
a111: Logged on 2016-12-22 06:41 mircea_popescu: this way you don't actually have to ~index~ anything, if you wish to see where txn 1234567890 was included in a block, you go to /12/34/56/7890 which points to block x
Framedragger: would this be performant enough even theoretically, given no way to use offsets?
mircea_popescu: you could use them to connect transactions to blocks, addresses to blocks, whatever index you're trying to keep
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry ?
Framedragger: right, that part is cool.
mircea_popescu: you have to load the block anyway.
mircea_popescu: and if fixed widths, you would actually "use" offsets in the sense of making files.
Framedragger: hmh right, right. no way around it, i guess.
Framedragger: yeah, okay; as long as it's not fixed-width trb-i, no way around this.
mircea_popescu: nothing generally forces you to keep a block other than a collection of transaction-files, for instance. the exact implementation is up in the air for exactly such reason\
mircea_popescu: we don't really understand what we're designing against
Framedragger: jolly lil' project.
Framedragger: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=771573 << dude runs into weird cups printing issue which creates millions of symlinks in /tmp as side effect (...). side effect of *that* (well, presumably that) is system fails to boot. because of course.
Framedragger: also, """But I appear to have a lingering effect that seems to have started from the time my /tmp directory had the millions of files in it.
Framedragger: Take a look at this:
Framedragger: # cd /tmp
Framedragger: # time ls
Framedragger: real 0m0.069s user 0m0.000s sys 0m0.068s
Framedragger: # echo 3 >/proc/sys/vm/drop_caches
Framedragger: # time ls real 0m15.146s"""
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623846 <-- fwiw the only way I can see this dependency on Python going anywhere would be if someone makes a sane replacement basically - however, artists need it but won't do it and otherwise people who are able to do it have a huge list of *other* things that need to be done as far as I can see; moreover (and as usual already), the whole steaming pile is deep so I can't even say how much one
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 18:14 mircea_popescu: meanwhile i ended up with a python dependency via blender ;/ i dun think it's going anywhere.
diana_coman: needs to reimplement to get out on the other side really (I did NOT dig deep into Blender but I wouldn't be surprised if it were terribly bloated at the very least)
mircea_popescu: afaik blender is half python.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger yes, the fs is a major pile of dubious, as asciilifeform well points out.
diana_coman: myeah, sort-of-half-python; jumatate de python schiop calare pe jumatate de c olog
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-09#1623960 << this contains a world of pain, nao anyone can make you do 3,000 fs accesses just by asking for a block
a111: Logged on 2017-03-09 20:54 mircea_popescu: nothing generally forces you to keep a block other than a collection of transaction-files, for instance. the exact implementation is up in the air for exactly such reason\
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, tradeoffs. he wants to store the block in parts, he wants to store it whole, what can i say
mircea_popescu: can't say jack shit without seeing some numbers.
ben_vulpes: hey trinque didja hear that one about cups and the symlinks?
trinque: pls no
ben_vulpes: heh heh heh
phf: ben_vulpes: inlining svg works, but now it throws errors about javascript. please advise.
ben_vulpes: fuck, buddy
ben_vulpes: well how am i supposed to advise without being able to repro?
ben_vulpes: (not that the barf in question makes any goddamn sense in the first place...)
mircea_popescu: "please advice!" "fuckbuddy."
ben_vulpes: no dick sucky, no javascripty
mircea_popescu: this is like the superlative of "what do i do now ?" "drink."
deedbot: http://danielpbarron.com/2017/the-unreasonable-update/ << Daniel P. Barron - The Unreasonable Update
mircea_popescu: kinda lost me in the first paragraph.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/94ar2/?raw=true << the possibly interesting bit
asciilifeform: (the 'anonymized' vendor is, most likely, vupen)
asciilifeform bbl, meat
mircea_popescu: the quality of service in this restaurant is unparalleled. but yes, vupen.
Framedragger: for symlink fs testers (or maybe selfnote for later): note that if you allow for sufficient folder tree depth, the "1000s of symlinks per dir" won't realistically happen when storing, say, bitcoin transaction hashes. the latter have 256 bits => 64 hex chars. if you allow for depth of 8 where last level (8) is symlink itself, you get 32 bits per folder level.
Framedragger: assuming equally distributed transaction hashspace, if you want your tree to fill up with 1000 nodes on average per given depth, you'd be storing 10^24 transactions. but this assumes that every folder depth gets assigned equal number of bits to represent, of course.
Framedragger: ^ the above is plain-obvious, but just ftr.
Framedragger: /me probably off till (maybe much) later
BingoBoingo enjoys reading day of Republic fucking filesystems and CIA doing intensive research into possibility of unfucking
mircea_popescu: pretty sure this was in teh prev pass discussing this
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A81D208D3F586D37BB5B01618701760E7ECB09D0E3EE181083CEB4E8C0A52C75 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1489...1973 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '162.217.146.236 (ssh-rsa key from 162.217.146.236 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US NY)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A81D208D3F586D37BB5B01618701760E7ECB09D0E3EE181083CEB4E8C0A52C75 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1421...9607 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '162.217.146.236 (ssh-rsa key from 162.217.146.236 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US NY)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/B38595546DF746890308952213DCBF7C001A148E9135B0D939C136F490B9A052 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1512...7289 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '147.102.194.35 (ssh-rsa key from 147.102.194.35 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (het25.physics.ntua.gr. GR I)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/B38595546DF746890308952213DCBF7C001A148E9135B0D939C136F490B9A052 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1489...2027 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '147.102.194.35 (ssh-rsa key from 147.102.194.35 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (het25.physics.ntua.gr. GR I)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A18F3D16E5DE757C10A2285BF02B0FFE865B3ABBB5B403352A60E6B74963AC4E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1619...8093 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '77.253.213.229 (ssh-rsa key from 77.253.213.229 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (77-253-213-229.static.ip.netia.com.pl. PL MZ)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A18F3D16E5DE757C10A2285BF02B0FFE865B3ABBB5B403352A60E6B74963AC4E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1491...4003 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '77.253.213.229 (ssh-rsa key from 77.253.213.229 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (77-253-213-229.static.ip.netia.com.pl. PL MZ)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0DA4CE74B76C9C061A2B19304702C27363CEC8E2D03C0DE8F263A311ABE07BA0 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1766...1429 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '92.243.14.42 (ssh-rsa key from 92.243.14.42 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (www.docteurbeaute.com. FR)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0DA4CE74B76C9C061A2B19304702C27363CEC8E2D03C0DE8F263A311ABE07BA0 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1451...4147 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '92.243.14.42 (ssh-rsa key from 92.243.14.42 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (www.docteurbeaute.com. FR)
shinohai: pobrecito gribble disconnects again
asciilifeform: !~later tell phf https://github.com/hanshuebner/vlm << sent in by a reader. somehow this has been just sitting there since '09, without my noticing
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
Framedragger: re. fs nodes, couldn't sleep + not sure if this makes sense, so just throwing these out - barebones super simplistic (function is `n_objects_to_store ^ 1 / folder_depth`) plots showing expected average number of nodes per folder (assumptions are no bias in hashspace and also equal share of hash bits per folder level) - it may not be intuitive how low the averages are until you look:
Framedragger: 1) http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph1.png - up till 100bn objects (to compare, current number of bitcoin transactions ~= 0.2bn)
Framedragger: 2) http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/fsgraph1.png - up till 10**24 (which is when avg number of nodes per folder reaches 1000 for total depth of 8)
Framedragger: (really kindergarten level simple but wanted to see this myself, could be useful for reference - unless it's incorrect..)
asciilifeform: same link??
Framedragger: d'oh! thanks.
Framedragger: << (obviously these'd be more useful with actual empirical numbers of average/median seek times, writes, seek/write as things get congested, etc.)
Framedragger: (deeper path => slower traversal but fewer nodes per folder, up to the point where e.g. 'fast symlinks' can be used by ext4 (http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/fs/ext4/inode.c#L148) - maybe; etc.)
trinque: BingoBoingo: the guy looks miserable
trinque: sandpaper on the cock will do that.
BingoBoingo: Happens
trinque: Le mariage de Macron est la publicité parfaite pour un taux de natalité non existant en France << l0l
asciilifeform: from 'beta' list -- r.v. guha, turns out, is http://www.guha.com/cv.html , also cyc
asciilifeform: (now absorbed, apparently, into google)
asciilifeform: and apparently responsible singlehandedly , or so himself claims, for one of the more infamous fake wotrons.
asciilifeform: 'epinions'
asciilifeform: and for the existence of rdf. motherfucker.
trinque suffered under an RDF believer for about 4 years
asciilifeform: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.lisp/BebxJD27sao << ancient lulz found when trying to find what the fuck 'mcc' was
asciilifeform: apparently, long-gone 'Microelectronics and Computer Technology Corporation' in austin, tx.
mircea_popescu: is there such a thing as an indian who isn't a total shitbag ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i know a handful
asciilifeform: holy fuck how can something the size of mcc vanish without ANY trace
asciilifeform: not so much as a broken shard of babylonian clay pot.
mircea_popescu: it helps if it exists in the first place.
asciilifeform: 'MCC was part of the Artificial Intelligence boom of the 1980s, reportedly the single largest customer of both Symbolics and Lisp Machines, Inc. (and like Symbolics, was one of the first companies to register a .com domain). ' << aaaah apparently THAT's how.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i don't get it, you graphed some functions ? or ?
asciilifeform: apparently was a consortium of mainframe makers, serious r&d corps, etc., worked on cad. utterly thermonuked by lisp winter and the microshitization of computing.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: basically, and that's strictly it - because i couldn't intuitively wrap my head around the fact that average number of nodes per specific folder would be _really_ low if depth is say more than 3. still weird in my head, but yeah.
asciilifeform: 'For a long while I was doing research in software productivity. We began asking, ‘What is wrong? And why is it so difficult? Why is it so costly? What is complexity?’ It led me to interesting research, but nothing happened. We did not discover how to formulate or mathematically express the idea of program complexity. Not program complexity in the sense of algorithmic complexity—NP-complete problems and all that jazz—but the
asciilifeform: complexity of programming.'
mircea_popescu: dude these women presidents aren't doing so well after all ? brazil, korea... who has one left ? impeach the queen ?
mircea_popescu: obviously argentina's ex whore is going to jail as well...
asciilifeform: https://stallman.org/articles/texas.html << further lulz re rms guest lecture at mcc.
asciilifeform: (historical)
asciilifeform: featuring 'nasal plant sex'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624012 >> 'La Socité Francaise de Médecine Morphologique et Anti-Age ' << lelzz
a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 01:44 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0DA4CE74B76C9C061A2B19304702C27363CEC8E2D03C0DE8F263A311ABE07BA0 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1451...4147 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '92.243.14.42 (ssh-rsa key from 92.243.14.42 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (www.docteurbeaute.com. FR)
mircea_popescu: you'd be surprised how many people are fixated on this age business.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624006 >> 'Sports Memorabilia & Promotional Products' >> 'Sport It, Inc.', some nowhere, usa. spamola, and diddleddebian.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 01:26 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A81D208D3F586D37BB5B01618701760E7ECB09D0E3EE181083CEB4E8C0A52C75 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1421...9607 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '162.217.146.236 (ssh-rsa key from 162.217.146.236 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US NY)
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/03/us-sportscaster-tout-south-korean-victory-over-china-the-republic-of-in-world-baseball-classic-ignores-actual-losses-by-peoples-republic/ << Qntra - US Sportscaster Tout South Korean Victory Over China (The Republic of) in World Baseball Classic, Ignores Actual Losses By People's Republic
BingoBoingo: ^ Some idiot said Qntra was a "Pro-China" rag
mircea_popescu: oh it isn't ?
mircea_popescu: (he means republic of china, yes, not the communist fake state ?)
asciilifeform: y'mean usg's 'unsinkable carrier' ?
asciilifeform: ( their actual sales pitch from the period!11 )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-10#1624042 << i don't mean, privately. i mean a public indian.
a111: Logged on 2017-03-10 03:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i know a handful
mircea_popescu: sad testament for the cockroach race.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> (he means republic of china, yes, not the communist fake state ?) << Well they both lost
mod6: alf was it mentioned that some of these recent submission need regrinding?
mod6: *submission(s)
asciilifeform: mod6: anything at all might need regrinding, depending on your particular tree
asciilifeform: mod6: had something more specific in mind ?
mod6: asciilifeform_blackhole_odometer.vpatch, asciilifeform_blocktimer.vpatch, and asciilifeform_goodbye_pingers_fixed.vpatch all have the same input hash.
asciilifeform: goodbye_pingers is to be shitburied
mod6: which is fine, if you only use one of the three above, but not good if you try to use >1 of them.
asciilifeform: it achieves 0.
mod6: ah, ok.
asciilifeform: (at most 0 !)
asciilifeform: blackhole odometer is probably of ~very~ limited interest to folx who aren't asciilifeform
asciilifeform: 'block timer' is obsoleted by blackhole odometer.
asciilifeform: so we're left with null set.
mod6: no worries. shinohai was building, asked me to double check just to be sure. thought it was worth the mention to future spelunkers.
asciilifeform: mod6: you can safely consign these to 'experimental tree' or wherever.
asciilifeform: same place shiva lives.
asciilifeform: 'poorly conceived crackpotteries' or what it was mircea_popescu called'em.
mod6: no sweat. just putting up a signpost for future spelunkers.
mod6: in the spirit of experimentation, it makes sense that one experiment would not necessairly contain the same changes as a different experiment.
mod6: and would have the same input hashes.
shinohai: ghehehehe
mod6: a cautionary note to anyone who is going to use my V to press with wires_rev1 (http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2017-February/000251.html), be sure to name the seal as such or it won't get picked up in the flow (in the new, forthcoming version 99994) as such: asciilifeform_wires_rev1.vpatch.asciilifeform.sig
trinque: yar, had to rename it
trinque: mod6: the thing should really have one of those google AIs to figure out which goes with which
trinque: I'm sure they have a cloud API for that
mod6: hah
BingoBoingo: AV - Artificial Veh
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BD8C9C1ADBE5ED9416A31D88FB9C1A1090230FACD87D55B9363507BAB92E0559 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1497...5393 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '78.137.160.9 (ssh-rsa key from 78.137.160.9 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (ip-78-137-160-9.dedi.digiweb.ie. IE L)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BD8C9C1ADBE5ED9416A31D88FB9C1A1090230FACD87D55B9363507BAB92E0559 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1709...1097 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '78.137.160.9 (ssh-rsa key from 78.137.160.9 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (ip-78-137-160-9.dedi.digiweb.ie. IE L)
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