Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-02-24 | 2017-02-26 → ↓
BingoBoingo: cloudflare lulz stem from US 'hockeystick' metaphor
thestringpuller: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1617872 << In world of warcraft alliance and horde factions couldn't talk to each other. So as an alliance player if someone in the horde typed "lol" it would come out "kek". nostalgia :|
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 02:14 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1617860 << after n years i still am in the dark, re what exactly is a kek, and where to get one
BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: kek predates that
trinque: kik is lol transposed left one key
trinque: I'd wager the e was random drift
trinque: of course these things needn't have one particular origin
trinque: oh, I guess asians do say kek, too.
trinque: that was important internet research.
trinque to bed
mod6: mornin'
asciilifeform: goodmorning mod6
shinohai: heya mod6
mod6: :]
mod6: asciilifeform: cool work on adding the timings for blocks (timer & revealer)
mod6: how goes shinohai?
shinohai: Not bad here, you? Hopefully I can get time this afternoon to add asciilifeform 's newest goodies and test
mod6: yeah, good call. should be easy enough to drop em in and test 'em.
mod6: lol, so get this. i was thinking, "man i really should have gotten a Ada ref book..."
mod6: I already bought that Ada 95 lecture notes book and had it on my shelf. found it there lastnight. heh.
asciilifeform: mod6: http://cs.fit.edu/~ryan/ada/programs << quite possibly the best www resource re subj.
mod6: ah yah, that's a good list of things. i've got it bookmarked. good to have it in the l0gz again tho.
asciilifeform: ( the canonical standards are also on www, http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/ada12.html , download the html to disk and use like lisp folks use clhs)
asciilifeform: http://www.ada-auth.org/arm.html << on this page, there are zip of plain ascii (!!) vers of the ref and rationale, also.
mod6: what i want to do is write a program that does somethings to not only get a feel for the lang, but also how to use packages.
asciilifeform: mod6: the canonical 'schoolbook for the lazy' is the john barnes backbreaker.
asciilifeform: the package system is quite spiffy and rather programmable, you will win from doing some reading.
asciilifeform: ( it is more similar to common lisp's than to idiot langs where 'hurr durr , packages just mean #include eh?' )
mod6: nice, thanks for the links. i'll keep readin'
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/lets-put-one-and-two-together/ << Trilema - Let's put one and two together.
mircea_popescu: trinque dja think deedbot should have an ad interim patch before tmsr pgp is released to take care of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-23#1617236 ?
a111: Logged on 2017-02-23 19:12 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform o hey, consider this situation : 1. i know your fp, so i make fake key for that fp. 2. i know trinque 's fp, so i make fake key for that fp too. 3. i know you keep a signed copy of trinque's key on your keyring ; so : 4. i proceed to sign trinque's fake key with your fake key and 5. pretend to be a noob and give you my gpg pubkey.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho the smart thing to do with bad olde gpg is to use it as demonstrated in my original vtron -- sans keyring.
mircea_popescu: smart thing would be to replace it with a proper rsatron
asciilifeform: noshit.jpg
mircea_popescu: no fixes till then i don't think.
asciilifeform: must point out : keyring diddles don't affect folx who don't use keyrings.
asciilifeform: (other gpg retardations -- naturally -- will.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unrelatedly, 1st link in your piece is borked
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/17577FB048785D5F26AF21D592811C703AB7BEF56D6DB29E34C2A8EF081BF233 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1671...2219 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.149.58.73 (ssh-rsa key from 217.149.58.73 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (tango-73.srv.hosting.fi. FI)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/17577FB048785D5F26AF21D592811C703AB7BEF56D6DB29E34C2A8EF081BF233 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1676...3887 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.149.58.73 (ssh-rsa key from 217.149.58.73 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (tango-73.srv.hosting.fi. FI)
asciilifeform: meanwhile:
asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, PANZERS!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes , mod6 , et al!!
asciilifeform: [BTC-dev] (EXPERIMENTAL) Blackhole Odometer.
asciilifeform: after running this for a spell, simply:
asciilifeform: grep -B 1 ProcessBlock .bitcoin/debug.log
asciilifeform: and wotpaste the output .
mircea_popescu: odometer lol. nice.
ben_vulpes: alf the busy beaver dog
mircea_popescu: wait, what's the beaver about ?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: pretty idle lately , actually, trb is a procrastinatory escape from the hardstuff
ben_vulpes: publishy, then
shinohai: Interesting trilema article mircea_popescu ... twitter actually locked my account twice this week over the "auto" stuff, which they refer to as suspicious account activity.
mircea_popescu: lots of people, not just you. and they're all suspicious subversives.
mircea_popescu: whatever, they'll be left with boeck and supran tweeting to one another, no great loss
shinohai: Why have an api if you can't actually do useful things with it.
mircea_popescu: a there you go.
mircea_popescu: lol wait for urbit.
mircea_popescu: ahahahaa ookay.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and 'blockchain-based principles' !!
asciilifeform: hey where would the islanders ever have seen airplane made not of straw.
mircea_popescu: don't begrudge an orc his orcish tongue ; "blockchain principles" is how they say "tmsr made"
mircea_popescu: o look, stefan molyneux made the list, that chick angie what'sher name didn't.
asciilifeform: heimbach did tho!111
a111: Logged on 2016-10-15 05:27 asciilifeform: heimbach was one hell of a d00d, i met him on a street, where he picketed 'occupyists' while waving kaiser banner.
mircea_popescu lulz at the notion he quit it before it was even cool.
asciilifeform: hey asciilifeform was 1 step ahead even of this! never used shitter
mircea_popescu: a decade or so ago there were womenz there.
asciilifeform: hey now it'll be ~100% solid 'womenz.' only, the kind with 6 legs.
asciilifeform: in other noose, worldwide butthurt re 'oh noez, people won't delete ILLICIT LEAKED SEEKRITZ!111 from crapflare 'bug' !! IRRESPONSIBLE!'
asciilifeform: ( https://archive.is/Nxydu << entomologists only!! )
mircea_popescu: quite literally irresponsible : i don't fucking answer TO YOU SAD LOT
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes , mod6 , et al: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/FEYhA/?raw=true << thus far on dulap.
asciilifeform: general-purpose db, it turns out, is ALWAYS The Wrong Tool For Every Job (tm) -- like duct tape, and 'visegrip'...
mircea_popescu: contrary to what hate haters hate, mysql is perfect for the web
mircea_popescu: (no, the web doesn't have "logins" ffs.)
asciilifeform: ~mysql~ ?
asciilifeform: the one that crashes randomly ?
mircea_popescu: 8 years of trilema, never crashed, randomly or otherwise.
asciilifeform: how many write/sec peak ?
asciilifeform: reads ?
mircea_popescu: writes ? i dunno, one a day ?
asciilifeform: so then.
mircea_popescu: reads, in the 1k/s range i guess. trilema is big.
mircea_popescu: I DID SAY!
asciilifeform: if you ~only read, you don't need a db
mircea_popescu: but you don't ~only. you web. rarely write, often read.
mircea_popescu: it has slave reads, which makes it WAY BETTER than any other, including progresql or whatever
asciilifeform: point being that you can simply switch off reading for the few msec every day that you are actually writing, without causing headache
asciilifeform: and guarantee consistency
mircea_popescu: received 1.8 gb sent 104.3 gb. today.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought you had a cachetron in there? or does every www load actually result in db reads
asciilifeform: (even phuctor has a simple cache)
mircea_popescu: not every www load hits the db, but more than none do because page layout complexities
mircea_popescu: (new comment stales out all article pages ; all pages are staled out once a day cause of header image ; etcetera)
asciilifeform: so probably it isn't '1k/sec' then
mircea_popescu: today is not ddos day
asciilifeform: but a more reasonable handful/sec.
mircea_popescu: you understand this, it stays up through all sorts of insanity.
asciilifeform: 'stay up' is not same as 'all requests complete' neh
mircea_popescu: for the web it is.
mircea_popescu: that's the premise here : perfect for the job.
asciilifeform: what, every ddos maggot gets an accurate copy of the item he supposedly reads?
mircea_popescu: no, just, i don't give a shit what happens to any request.
asciilifeform: so 'perfect' for 'the web' aka 'thing that does not actually need to work to any spec'
mircea_popescu: it's a job.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what were 'slave reads' ?
mircea_popescu: you recall the discussion where you couldn'tr get "advanced sqltron" to read stale ?
asciilifeform: i recall one where i asked how to force unlocking for reads in pgsql , and found answer was 'fuckyou'
mircea_popescu: and phf was all like "this isn't in the spec" then read the spec etc
asciilifeform: btw not only do i ask for this, but i would even buy a multi-ported ssd. to ACTUALLY read from two holes at same time. because in some applications, you can guarantee consistency using YOUR OWN system, and don't need to rely on some idiot's lock
mircea_popescu: yeah well.
asciilifeform: (you can get multiported memory, no questions asked, even now. but not, for some odd reason, packaged into any device you can use with a comp...)
mircea_popescu: orc dun know what he didn't read on twitter.
asciilifeform: while we're on subj of idiot db: i looked into how to sanely aggregate writes in bdb. turned up 0.
mircea_popescu: i dun think it does that.
asciilifeform: evidently
asciilifeform: incidentally, does it melt anyone else's brain that satoshi's format for tx input did not mandate a 'and it is in block # N' field ?
mircea_popescu: no. very much in line with the cowboy design altogether.
asciilifeform: this would handily make the txindex db unnecessary entirely
asciilifeform: as well as abolish 'orphans', etc.
mircea_popescu: yes but it would inconvenience user.
asciilifeform: how ? ohnoez, he has to wait for a tx to get mined before making children of it ?
asciilifeform: big fat pain
mircea_popescu: yes. but at the time satoshi was satoshing under that name, people were still pre-bitcoinafrica
asciilifeform: (... and, having to wait half hour for block eatings is not pain ?)
mircea_popescu: no because government does thart for them hurr.
mircea_popescu: it's hard, dude. washing out the socialism from the crevices of the boy who lived in socialism is fucking hard.
asciilifeform: but that was ~whole motherfucking point, even of early bitcoin
asciilifeform: as nonsocialism themepark, if you will
mircea_popescu: what people think the whole point is scarcely has any bearing.
mircea_popescu: that's what he was trying to do, yes.
mircea_popescu: similarily, young bride isn't AIMING to become a bitch. she's just getting married.
mircea_popescu: and it'll be really cool and wonderful.
asciilifeform: bitcoin reminds me of... early attempts to pump hard vacuum.
asciilifeform: (e.g., edison, was very frustrated, because it is physically impossible to get ~hard~ vacuum using , e.g., torricelli's methods, but he did not know this )
asciilifeform: ('hard', for n00bz, i will reminds, is when mean-free-path of particle is longer than the container is wide along any axis)
asciilifeform: so it likewise was with 'let's make a bottle with 0 socialism'
asciilifeform: trb node is, for instance, continuously engaged in the sin of 'something to allcomers'.
mircea_popescu: i think it a very apt analogy actually.
asciilifeform: pretty straight case of 'naturam expellas furca tamen usque recurret'
mircea_popescu: only in the making of hard vacuum was the making of hard vacuum learned ; and it fundamentally changed fluid physics (which is more than one immediately realises)
mircea_popescu: it's very similar to the marine chronometer problem, in its disproportionate impact
mircea_popescu: "who the fuck cares about navy timekeeping" "hurry up and have children before you're too old to attract a sucker"
asciilifeform: there were not so many tech leaps comparable to hard vacuum (which makes possible everything from triode -- ergo, tuned radio, cathode tube, geiger, electron microscopy, 1,000,001 everyday items )
asciilifeform: a method of bitcoinating where you can actually get ~100% of the socialism out (as contemplated in, e.g., the gossip threads) would, i suspect, be a similar jump.
mircea_popescu: trb-i, yes?
asciilifeform: by definition neh.
asciilifeform: while we're on subj, why not make tx of fixed size ?
asciilifeform: then you have O(1) input-finding.
asciilifeform: no incides needed at all.
asciilifeform: *indices
asciilifeform: tx is, e.g., 1024 byte, then 1024 tx live in a block, etc.
asciilifeform: a mature (i.e. mined) tx's id will then consist of the concatenation of the block number it lives in (say, 64bit, enough until long after sun burns out), then a 10-bit offset into the block (0..1023) , then hash of payload.
asciilifeform: (alternatively, could require that a tx include a 'i want to live in block N' value at birth! and if it doesn't get into N, it is invalid for all time. but this would have serious engineering tradeoff, 'canned' txen as discussed in old mircea_popescu article would be impossible.)
asciilifeform: ('value at birth' naturally implies 'encompassed by the signature')
asciilifeform: however 'bbet scenario' would then also be abolished.
asciilifeform: no longer would idiotic concept of 'ahahaha you're trying to DOUBLESPEND!' be a thing.
asciilifeform: and mempool contents would have natural lifespans, as they presently do not.
danielpbarron: not impossible; would just need to pre-sign hundreds of thousands of tx, each "wanting to live" in a different block but all using the same inputs. even gives you the control over how long the "canned tx" is good for
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: if this is desirable -- then can use scheme as described. otherwise can also require ~hash~ of the antecedent of the wanted-block.
asciilifeform: then -- no cans.
asciilifeform: to clarify -- in my mind, a 'trb-i' ~must~ be capable of checking validity of tx at wire speed (i.e. at the speed it is physically capable of receiving them) on reasonable iron.
asciilifeform: this would abolish the 'epicycle' of 'how do we rate-limit crapola'
asciilifeform: and transform the problem into 'how do we keep enemy from jamming the low level transport', which is solved by signed-packets (or mircea_popescu's variant, or similar.)
asciilifeform: to revisit upstack -- if you have 'want-block' field, you can auto-reject (in O(1) !!) any tx that comes in having a want-block that is <= current-height.
asciilifeform: (reject, that is, from mempool candidacy)
asciilifeform: likewise you can reject, in O(1), any tx input which attempts to make use of a future ( > current-height ) block.
trinque: beat me to "then people will broadcast 10x the txns each time"
asciilifeform: trinque: nobody makes you relay tx that has future want-block.
trinque: aha
asciilifeform: ( but as i described, you can make it protocolically impossible, by demanding parent's hash )
trinque: on the same page; please continue
asciilifeform: in either hypothetical trb-i -- you no longer need a db. any db.
asciilifeform: all input lookups are O(1).
asciilifeform: locking problems (gotta add tx to index, in current trb, as aggregate -- but the only way to do that is to stop the world! like complete idiot -- every time there is a new block, to prevent situation where there is a partially indexed block available to incoming mempool tx verifier) disappear.
asciilifeform: in given trb-i scheme, a block either exists on disk -- or does not
asciilifeform: either verifies (again in O(1) !) or does not
asciilifeform: scheme is a quite obvious one. but i bet if there is anyone whom this shoe pinches, it'll be mircea_popescu , he will tell us where.
asciilifeform: the one tricky question i can think of is, how does it behave under reorg.
asciilifeform: (seems to me that the old dictum 'wait 6 blox' would still apply just the same.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform judging by the thing you linked btw, the "harmless radiator" function of urbit is out in full effect.
trinque: under current circumstances there are also cases where you will have to regrind and rebroadcast your transaction
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: andresen h. paid for it for a reason!11
trinque: same deal, better watch the chain to know your txn actually happened
asciilifeform: trinque: right
mircea_popescu: canned txn wouldn't be impossible, just less maneuvrable.
asciilifeform: trinque: though in classical bitcoin you don't usually need to regrind
mircea_popescu: could make them in 1k block increments say
asciilifeform: only rebroadcast
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: under the don't-need-antecedent-hash -- yes, you could
asciilifeform: in the stricter variant -- not
trinque: looser variant only buys you "might get into alternate next-block, otherwise regrind"
trinque: not much really
asciilifeform: trinque: looser variant buys you 'i can give canned tx to my friend so he can move my coin to /dev/null when usg shoots me, but nowhere else'
asciilifeform: if no canned tx permitted -- this is no longer possible.
trinque: aha, feature or bug
asciilifeform: it is both.
asciilifeform: which is why i won't even take a position on this , and leave it up to folx who actually worked this scenario in real life , e.g. mircea_popescu .
mircea_popescu: anyway. the main problem, barely conveyed by the "canned tx" thing, is that if you require the user to know more than his privkey to make a txn, you make usage a higher bar than it is now.
asciilifeform: correct
mircea_popescu: whether this is desirable or not is very much an open question, but it is too early yet to weigh on the matter.
asciilifeform: he has to know the actual best-block.
asciilifeform: (which, if you recall in classical bitcoin, is not easy ! withholding exists...)
trinque: imagining one under attack, it could certainly prevent him from blasting coin to another castle before defeat
trinque: net blockade == no transactions smuggled out
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618154 << it's so funny, at least to me, the sheer wastage of resources usg oligarchs engage in. they keep buying things, which they don't understand, on the expectation that "we;ll find a use for them". they do. it's ALWAYS the same one. somehow the fact that i know in advance what it'll be doesn't inform them as to their horrible strategic position.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 19:27 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: andresen h. paid for it for a reason!11
trinque: or, messenger has to have privkey
trinque: in which case messenger is fucking rich
mircea_popescu: somewhat in the same way a retarded child who buys things but always ends up using them as if they were icecream doesn't thereby realise he's retarded.
mircea_popescu: trinque there's all that.
asciilifeform: trinque, mircea_popescu : to my naked eye, looks like you could get best of both world, by making 'want-block' optional
mircea_popescu: it suspiciously reinstills socialism in that it creates a very strong incentive for... all castles to... work together. because "first they came for the germans" usual bugaboo of socialist propaganda to try and dissolve the outer membranes of the individual organism's cells.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the unfortunate bit is that having global consensused state (blocks) at all, already does this
mircea_popescu: to a lesser degree.
asciilifeform: (the only alternative known to me, presently, is the matrix mechanics 'coin' we discussed on a few occasions, and that is 'martian' tech that nobody alive is necessarily qualified to operate )
mircea_popescu: see, the fact that you don't have txn as you describe is what allowed me the "you will die if you fork" threat last year : i don't have to know jack about their chain to murder their chain.
mircea_popescu: under a bitcoin as you describe, 2015 gavincoin'd have had better chances.
asciilifeform: how's that
mircea_popescu: because the same txn was acceptable to both fork and real network.
mircea_popescu: spend a bitcoin, obtain a bitcoin on each chain.
asciilifeform: doesn't that make setting up the temperature pump harder, rather than easier ?
asciilifeform: (the gavin-killing device from mircea_popescu's 'missile crisis' piece)
mircea_popescu: seems not.
mircea_popescu: let's see. i have a bitcoin. the network forks. i spend the bitcoin. the spend is valid on both networks and thus included by both networks. in different blocks.
mircea_popescu: i now have two bitcoins - a real and a fake one.
mircea_popescu: if the network worked as you describe, i'd have had to choose on which network i wish to spend.
mircea_popescu: which'd have required me to ~know something~ about the fake network.
asciilifeform: now let's work same example in hypothetical 'needs want-block'. there you would simply have to sign 2 tx, with same payload other than 'want-block', neh ?
mircea_popescu: something is a higher bar than nothing.
asciilifeform: and would get desired effect
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1617985 << yes, I will look into storing pubkeys elsewhere, nuke keyring, pass pubkey each time to encrypt call.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 17:04 mircea_popescu: trinque dja think deedbot should have an ad interim patch before tmsr pgp is released to take care of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-23#1617236 ?
mircea_popescu: i said harder not impossible.
mircea_popescu: trinque my concern was more in the vein of, i don't want deedbot to answer with an item crafted as described to a !!key command
asciilifeform: on second thought, it seems to me that you could get everything you could possibly want from 'want-block', by making an optional 'max-block'
asciilifeform: this would abolish bbet-like 'dr.evil sat on this tx until convenient moment, then mined it' when desired.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this existed historically, on say call bills etc.
asciilifeform: and still permit canned tx.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha. expiring cheques, etc.
trinque: mircea_popescu: right, register in this case would write a pubkey somewhere once, and always use that as the nick:key association
trinque: whereas now I'm asking the keyring
mircea_popescu: trinque it's more than that. must make sure the pubkey you wrote includes nothing but itself. one modulus.
mircea_popescu: othewrwise you'll feed it to people, see ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to defang gpg, must prevent it from writing to ANYWHERE on disk other than stdout
asciilifeform: so no implicit modification of states.
mircea_popescu: yeah well, that's a diff story.
trinque: mircea_popescu: ah yes I do. I'll need that pgpdump guy, store what's extracted from the key
asciilifeform: just recall vtron.
mircea_popescu: trinque pretty much.
mircea_popescu: sorry for the mess, which it is.
trinque: is what it is
mircea_popescu: myeah. thanks obama sort of thing.
mircea_popescu: incredibly prescient choice on mod6 's part with the .seals design
mircea_popescu: or was it alf ?
asciilifeform: mod6 implemented my original format 100%
asciilifeform: (he did make small mistake in his recurser, but that was separate thing)
mircea_popescu: yeah. it was you know, so clunky and unhip, at the time.
asciilifeform: fwiw i still use my vtron and his interchangeably.
asciilifeform: and nobody will need to make much change to switch to 'p' keys/seals.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618203 << if the only gpg op in your thing is verification, you can lift code from any of the vtrons, verbatim
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 19:39 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1617985 << yes, I will look into storing pubkeys elsewhere, nuke keyring, pass pubkey each time to encrypt call.
asciilifeform: (if decrypt -- a bit more sweat)
trinque: I have a gpg wrapper CL item I wrote
asciilifeform: aah neato
trinque: would release but the thing doesn't need more legs
asciilifeform: trinque, mircea_popescu : the reason for my 'want-block' gedankenexperiment, is the 'high vacuum' line of thought from earlier. because any way you cut it, an unexpiring tx is a kind of cheque for unlimited number of cpu cycles from the rest of the world
asciilifeform: in that nodes are required to contemplate it again, and again, potentially forever
mircea_popescu: no, but until included.
asciilifeform: it is a 'to-allcomers' quantum of socialistronium
asciilifeform: yes but potentially never included, and always a cpu tax to all-comers.
asciilifeform: 'unbounded' ~= 'infinite'.
mircea_popescu: im not disputing unexpiring txn is a bojum
mircea_popescu: for one thing, very poor impedance match with human thought processes.
asciilifeform: and yes, the man in the besieged castle, would dearly love to broadcast an unexpiring tx, throw it in a glass bottle into the sea, and who knows, it will go to friendly lines
asciilifeform: but this is an unlimited cheque, of sorts.
mircea_popescu: it inadvertently forces a node-miner tandem ("you don't like the mempopol, fucking mine it already")
mircea_popescu: wasn't so obvious back when ppl cpumined on the single windows binary
asciilifeform: there may exist some way to solve 'castle problem' that doesn't require a tx to stand alone 'for all time'.
mircea_popescu: anyway, no need for "desried block" and "max block" both. just the latter suffices.
asciilifeform: yes but ~require~ the latter ?
asciilifeform: then solves 'to allcomers', because the cpu cycle cost of eating a tx can be determined in O(1).
mircea_popescu: it can be priced see. if i wish to pay a ten bitcoin fee, i thereby have the right to make my tx last into the eons
asciilifeform: is what i meant
mircea_popescu: the pill to socialism is market. make things marketable, no further problems.
mircea_popescu: that's why i aim to buy the arab girls rather than convert to islam. they can keep their fucking ethnosocialism.
mircea_popescu: and that's also why the hope of the beta bois whining around "nrx" because "girlz be mean yo" is so well set to be disabused. more market, not less, is the future.
asciilifeform: to outline what we have so far : we've a 'must have all blocks' mining algo, from mircea_popescu ; we have a O(1)-verify-of-any-and-all-tx-and-blocks algo from asciilifeform (today) ; and we also now have a 'limited cpu cost for tx' algo.
mircea_popescu: yes, not terrible.
asciilifeform: what we afaik don't have is 'incentive for node-keeping' algo (though mircea_popescu's partially solves this, by requiring miners to have healthy nodes)
mircea_popescu: what we don't really have is the stuff that we really need, such as debottlers.
asciilifeform: what's that
mircea_popescu: can you presently count the bitcoin networks that exist ?
mircea_popescu: i know you'll say "there's one". but can you count ?
asciilifeform: i can't even count how many arms and legs exist
asciilifeform: (can fermi estimate,but that is not same!)
mircea_popescu: the g has a decent debottler built in ; the trb-i does not, and needs a few.
asciilifeform: plox to elaborate
mircea_popescu: "how do i know i talk to nodes that are representative ? cheaply and easily ?" for instance.
asciilifeform: why is it necessary for anyone to know the global count of operating nodes
mircea_popescu: i did not say nodes. i said networks.
asciilifeform: it seems like a terrible liability, for such a thing to be possible
mircea_popescu: for all you know there's 45 different bitcoins going on right now, separated by a so-far universally permeable membrane.
asciilifeform: (see mircea_popescu's earlier point re imposing cooperation on castles)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is inevitable fact of life, boxes live and die, wires are cut, new ones -- laid, etc
mircea_popescu: consider the case of the web, also a major application in need of a debottler. how do you know whether you connect ot the internet or to the tomcooknet ?
mircea_popescu: most ustards do the later and have no idea.
asciilifeform: there are as many 'bitcoin nets', theoretically, as there are nodes
mircea_popescu: my mouse knew it was in a glass jar.
asciilifeform: i am at a loss as to how this problem is solvable in general case. aside from mircea_popescu's answer to my 'panopticon' thread, 'don't get caught in a jar!'
mircea_popescu: what difference does that make ?
mircea_popescu: it's still needed.
asciilifeform: 'if you keep banging head on glass, you are probably in a jar'
asciilifeform: perpetuum mobile is similarly 'needed'.
mircea_popescu: yes, but it'd be good if it could be protocolized.
asciilifeform: and isn't that what the proof of work thing was originally about..?
asciilifeform: 'if you notice that the world hashrate seems to now equal what you could make out of your kitchen appliances, you are probably on cooknet'
mircea_popescu: it's a step in that direction yes.
asciilifeform: afaik it is one of the only two known steps in that direction (the other being wotronics. and we discussed what a coin that relies ~solely~ on wotronics, and not at all on proof-of-work, might look like.)
mircea_popescu: only works for blocks, you see.
mircea_popescu: whereas the bar to participate is txn
mircea_popescu: again, at the time ppl cpumined on their node-miner-wallet nobody noticed the difference.
asciilifeform: aha, even with mandatorily expiring tx, it is still possible to flood at low cost
asciilifeform: though O(1) verification could make this a nonproblem
mircea_popescu: that's one end of it.
mircea_popescu: it's also possible to go "oh, go ahead and spend your bitcoinz lel"
asciilifeform: (if tx can be verified at line rate, nobody can do any more damage using tx flooding than they already can do by flooding your net pipe)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as in, 'fuck you, i won't relay this, your addr ends with my auschwitz tatoo number' ?)
mircea_popescu: consider the lulz yesterday with the peter todd imbecile, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-23#1617211
a111: Logged on 2017-02-23 18:58 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the important point there is : the whole fake bitcoin address (3something) is supposed to be "useful" in practice. this utility is supposed to be proven by idiotic "challenges" like this one put up by peter todd. EXCEPT the output does not actually SIGN the transaction claiming the bounty.
mircea_popescu: if your idea of "i want to spend my dime" reduces to "well, have a mining farm" suddenly the whole thing's ~useless.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform exactly.
asciilifeform: wasn't that ^ thing simply an instance of 'i'ma put some coin on the floor for a miner to take' ?
asciilifeform: ~= voluntary fee.
asciilifeform: that it was able to masquerade as 'contest prize', is not really a bug in bitcoin
mircea_popescu: it was an instance of "here's something i made that doesn't work, mommy loves me" complex.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the idea is to not expand the hipster doofus design principles to trb-i
asciilifeform: idiots will always be able to smear shit on surfaces. the important thing is that the surface not be shit-permeable.
asciilifeform: pigeons shit on mercedes and trabant alike.
mircea_popescu: never mind that. the problem is that if your tx being included depends on you having a miner, you don't actually have a system. just like the 3bullshit isn't a system.
asciilifeform: that wasn't a legit bitcoin tx tho
mircea_popescu: you keep fixating on a completely nonsensical interpretation of the comparison.
asciilifeform: the fact of todd's trick being a thing, does not impose, afaik, any costs on legit users of bitcoin
mircea_popescu: look here.
mircea_popescu: idiot example #1 : peter todd & prb idiots came up with "a way to do things", which does not in fact work.
mircea_popescu: idiot example #2 : a trb which allows txn to be blocked by others than their issuers is ALSO a "way to do things" which doesn't in fact work, and therefore, exactly equivalent to the peter todd & prb idiots item
asciilifeform: ( if huckster can sell piss-cum-ink to chumps as 'elixir of immortality' -- is this a bug in piss? or in ink ? that he can do this )
mircea_popescu: miners may not be able to choose txn on any other criteria than the fee ; nodes idem.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how do you propose to force miners to include a particular tx ?
mircea_popescu: all txn are encrypted to destination. nobody knows what was mined until it is spent.
asciilifeform: i recall a proposal where ^
asciilifeform: they can still discriminate on input, neh
mircea_popescu: (practically - you can only know txn y spent from address z only once the chain ends up with an address you own so you can decrypt it)
mircea_popescu: the problem with this is that it makes balance checks impossible.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how ?
asciilifeform: to validate a tx, you gotta know that it is spending a valid input
mircea_popescu: this is what i'm saying, anyway. " what we don't really have is the stuff that we really need, such as debottlers."
asciilifeform: ( to square this circle, appears to be an irresistible lure to 'tor' types, they keep coming up with 'zkp' schemes )
asciilifeform: ring signatures, etc.
asciilifeform: none of it remotely works.
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
mircea_popescu: absent a good or at least workable breakthrough in this vein, there's no strong technological incentive to move to trb-i
mircea_popescu: there may be political, but then again...
asciilifeform: o(1) verification and must-have-all-blocks not enough ?
mircea_popescu: political.
asciilifeform: 'it won't grind to a halt in few years' is not 'political incentive' ?
asciilifeform: what other 'technological leaps' might qualify (other than successful blinded-payload )
mircea_popescu: well, sha-1 went, any one of the two mechanisms involved in pubkey protection weakinging any would make for an emergency incentive.
asciilifeform: elementarily
mircea_popescu: let's see, what more...
asciilifeform: (i was presupposing 'incentive to move while classical bitcoin is not on fire')
mircea_popescu: (in case it wasn't obvious, diff between political and technological is based on whether people have an incentive to emulate the fix anyway)
asciilifeform: 'emulate the fix' means what, exactly ?
asciilifeform: to pick it up and bolt to old piece of junk , rather than scrapping it entirely ?
mircea_popescu: take the issue of "must have all blocks". there's a strong political incentive to supplant the technological failure.
mircea_popescu: ie, the interests of the participants are alligned in the way of the fix not in the way of the failure.
asciilifeform: dunno, the asian 'we JUST WANT TO' folx, will whine, stand in the way however they can
asciilifeform: they want to mine, see, on dial-up
asciilifeform: (why -- i have nfi)
asciilifeform: now, a magical squaring of the 'anonymous tx' circle, where you lose ~nothing~, can prove a balance, verify a tx, and send entirely blinded, that satisfies everyone -- would technologically supplant classical algo. but there is no sign that such a thing is possible.
asciilifeform: (i even suspect that it is possible to rigorously prove that these requirements are mathematically contradictory)
mircea_popescu: maybe so yeah.
asciilifeform: blinded output is trivial (many ways to unblind 1 or more blocks later); it is ~inputs~ that are the squared-circle.
mircea_popescu: also happens to be what's of interest, what with all "color of bits" eternal imperial quest.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu no longer satisfied with the historic 'there's no taint damn you all to hell' solution to subj ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, there might be others, i make no pretense to exhaustivity, hence why this is a very early phase of the design. we don't well know the space yet.
mircea_popescu: but you asked, and i tried to provide.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm always open to technological solutions to replace political solutions.
asciilifeform: aha, and if anyone else can think of something that belongs on the list -- i'm all ears
mircea_popescu: much like i much prefer the "i'll be careful
mircea_popescu: much like i much prefer the "i took my pills" to the "i'll be careful" female declaration.
asciilifeform: 'trust allah, and tie the came'
mircea_popescu: and note that we';re not the onyl ones aware. enemy has placed a strategic urbit right on this space.
asciilifeform: urbit made no presense of decentralization tho
asciilifeform: quite the opposite
asciilifeform: very much 'permissioned coin'
mircea_popescu: i meant the what's it called, alt-coin
mircea_popescu: fluffypony's thing
asciilifeform: 'monero'
mircea_popescu: dumbass name.
asciilifeform: more recently, the zerocoin (or was it zcash..?) thing
asciilifeform: each based on mathematical sleight of hand, rather than actual crypto
mircea_popescu: only terrorists can add.
mircea_popescu: (in case anyone wonders where the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-16#1614597 scheiderism is going)
a111: Logged on 2017-02-16 16:16 asciilifeform: 'Security expert and doomsayer Bruce Schneier – speaking by video owing to RSA Conference commitments in San Francisco and perhaps prescience with regard to seasonal travel challenges – predicted that the government is coming to handcuff coders. "We all had this special right to code the world as we saw fit," said Schneier. "My guess is we're going to lose that right, because it's too dangerous
asciilifeform: Licensed Agents Of The Crown may, under some exceptional circumstances, add!111 but Only Terrorists could ever GCD.
mircea_popescu: somehow the fundamental problem of making one's citizens weaker is never evident to these schmucks.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that's what the 'trusted computing' / 'fritz chip' / etc. thing was about. and that it was about this, was obvious in 1995.
mircea_popescu: "oh but if they're strong they might not like us". ~dumbass women always and everywhere.
asciilifeform: it was obvious even to rms, the mushroom man
asciilifeform: btw i know of 1 simple way to make 'blinded input'
asciilifeform: that actually works
asciilifeform: although has own cost
asciilifeform: you could permit a tx to have an encrypted input, if it has a verifiable fallback input, rather like 'co-signer' in banking world
asciilifeform: which gets used if the primary input turns out to invalidate on unblind
mircea_popescu: in other lulkz : cnn, nytimes and the rest of the libertard fake news sites denied white house access.
asciilifeform: that way you can guarantee the validity of a blinded tx.
mircea_popescu: say what you will, the man is fucking killing them.
mircea_popescu: now people will have to click on breitbart to see what trump said at news conference.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: last i heard, they set up a 'parallel whitehouse taiwan' to 'report' on.
mircea_popescu: yeah but,
mircea_popescu: anyway. nytimes/cnn are getting shut down, this year. there's no two ways about it at this point.
asciilifeform: ( to revisit upstack : a transaction could have any number of blinded inputs, ordered by priority, if the ~sum~ moved is public, and there is at least 1 nonblinded fallback 'cosigner' input carried along. )
mircea_popescu: meh cosigners
asciilifeform: well you would use a virginal pile of coin as the cosigner
asciilifeform: it'd never get used up.
asciilifeform: (unless you botch your tx-making and end up invoking the fallback)
asciilifeform: i will guess that the scheme described above, is the closest anyone will ever see to an actual hard-solution to the given problem.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'cosigner' not in the idiot 'multisig' sense, but in the banking sense. 'this unencrypted input GUARANTEES validity of this tx, but if blinded input turns out valid, it does not get balance substracted.'
asciilifeform: *subtracted
mircea_popescu: so "i volunteer this neck to squeeze" ? tyvm.
asciilifeform: special-purpose neck.
mircea_popescu: game suddenly becomes "can you volunteer necks to squeeze" ; empire already reduced the thriving system of euro trade to the sad nonsense of us banking.
mircea_popescu: won't take 200 years the 2nd pass.
asciilifeform: unless someone were to discover a variant of 'zkp' that is not a cynical fraud (fat chance, imho) -- this is what you get.
asciilifeform: 'specify spare neck here'
mircea_popescu: in other news, pol likes trilema http://8ch.net/pol/res/9353080.html
asciilifeform: 'Remember that most of these """journalists""" grew up either during Watergate or in its shadow, and so it's hardly surprising that they see the role of the press as some kind of unelected fourth branch of government whose job is to "take down" the President, if all else fails. Bernstein and Woodward are their gods.'
asciilifeform: 1 more upstack : it is possible to make a repudiatable fallback. ( how : you publish the privkey of the fallback addr, after, of course, you've successfully moved its contents to a new one. ) now it is not enough for enemy to find some d00d who knows the privkey to said fallback -- he also has to know ~who had it at time t~, because today ~everyone~ has it.
asciilifeform: the other thing is, 'fallback' is a marketable ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618260 ) service. you can post a bond with somebody, and he gives you a fresh addr that you can use as fallback (if you drink it - he drinks up your bond, which is presumably more valuable than the addr amt.)
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 20:03 mircea_popescu: the pill to socialism is market. make things marketable, no further problems.
asciilifeform: the bond can be, e.g., casks of rum, not necessarily btc.
mircea_popescu: yes but now you depend on a type of tx - the moving fallbacks.
asciilifeform: the movement can be farmed out to the specialist ( described in the last example )
asciilifeform: marketable!
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 18:33 mircea_popescu: no because government does thart for them hurr.
asciilifeform: and it is very much in his interest to do a proper job.
mircea_popescu: this is laughable.
asciilifeform: how is it a government ?
mircea_popescu: whenever your design calls for "and then they will go in front of the cannons, break the enemy's arms and beat them into a pulp with the broken arms" you're not asking for a merchant, but for a soldier.
mircea_popescu: your design requires "always", not "when it's worth the money".
asciilifeform: work out the example where the d00d with the rum, fails in his duty
asciilifeform: your tx-s still won't be groupable by enemy ~to each other~, only to ~all of his backed tx~
asciilifeform: which presumably includes more than just 1 user
mircea_popescu: this was the pretense of shared hosting. it didn't work irl.
mircea_popescu: turns out usg is more than happy to bomb a whole dc, or for that matter wedding party.
mircea_popescu: (i dunno if you recall the net history, was at a point swedish torrent published openly mockful "takedowns" on its website)
asciilifeform: let's rewind to the attack scenario tho. if enemy can group the tx, all he gets is the ability to refuse to mine it, in this case
asciilifeform: which is something he already has ~all of the time~ today
asciilifeform: so as i understand it, the pictured scheme in all cases makes enemy's work no easier than it is now.
asciilifeform: and in many cases - considerably harder.
mircea_popescu: political solution.
asciilifeform: eh we don't even have a cipher of known hardness, nor any approach to one.
asciilifeform: much less a guaranteed-headache for enemy.
asciilifeform: of whatever shape.
mircea_popescu: myeah. that, also, gores on list : cipher of known hardness.
asciilifeform: fwiw i am not convinced that this is possible.
asciilifeform: (outside of otp.)
asciilifeform: ( it is worth ~attempting~, but i know of 0 attempts founded on anything . )
asciilifeform searched for year+ and counting
asciilifeform: i suspect that the most that can be hoped for, is a large pile of items that are provable to add ~zero or more~ headache to the enemy, individually AND in the aggregate.
asciilifeform: this MAY be possible.
asciilifeform: so, for instance, you can prove that a k-of-k (must have ALL parts) shamir split, where you then take each share and encipher with different method -- will NEVER be weaker than the strongest cipher used.
mircea_popescu: i guess.
asciilifeform: (i will leave the proof as exercise)
mircea_popescu: in any case i'm not a huge fan of the current address derivation scheme
mircea_popescu: ripemd160(sha256()) + sha256(sha256) checksum ? wtf is this bullshit.
mircea_popescu: and ecdsa key to begin with ? fuck me sideways.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha, it was 'junkyard wars', plain and simple
asciilifeform: pieces the orc found lying around, he used.
mircea_popescu: yeah. actually, im going to write up an alternative addressing shceme.
asciilifeform: i like lamport's
a111: Logged on 2017-01-17 00:21 asciilifeform: to possibly squeeze something useful from thread: as i understand, a lamport-based 'trb-i' ~could~ run on z80.
asciilifeform: no bignums.
asciilifeform: no numbertheoretical conjectures.
asciilifeform: while we're doing trb-i : in addition to 'tx is 1024 bytes, and block is 1024 tx' , consider another item: 'block MUST contain 1024 valid tx'
asciilifeform: now, miner could generate them himself. but now let's also suppose that every tx must also leak an epsilon of coin to /dev/null.
asciilifeform: so now miner has hard incentive to find actual tx in he wild, to fill his block.
danielpbarron: or leaked to a future block to be claimed along with tx fees
asciilifeform: btw i suspect that 'tx must include a micro libation to the gods' -- i.e. a leak -- is a necessary component of 'hard vacuum', 0socialism trbi as discussed earlier
asciilifeform: in essence you are paying holders of coin for the trouble of keeping up with your movements of same
asciilifeform: generating and broadcasting a tx imposes a cost on all users, for all time
asciilifeform: not only to verify it, again and again every time a new machine is stood up,
asciilifeform: but to store it
asciilifeform: imho it is reasonable that the doer of this, pay for it
asciilifeform: and pay ~those on whom the cost is imposed~, rather than miner - an unrelated third party
asciilifeform: the only practical way to do this, afaik, is a deflatory 'gods fee' per tx.
mircea_popescu: eh, deflationary coin will run out of coin.
mircea_popescu: if you mean something like "block subsidy = 100 btc forever ; and each block must contain 1k txn ; and each txn must waste 0.1 btc" then you've done jack shit.
asciilifeform: bitcoin is deflatory...
asciilifeform: run out yet?
asciilifeform: lose key -- lost coin
mircea_popescu: libertards call it that ; but then again they call all sorts of things.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's not what's being discussed here.
asciilifeform: so long as remaining coin is ~infinitely divisible -- not problem
mircea_popescu: no coin is infinitely divisible for reasons we already discussed.
mircea_popescu: even the theory that 1 satoshi is actually the denomination of btc is iffy
asciilifeform: i suspect that you still gotta have the god-fee if you want 0socialism. like or not.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/trb-i-addressing-scheme-proposal/ << Trilema - TRB-I Addressing Scheme Proposal
asciilifeform: right now when you make a tx, ~infinite unrelated third parties eat the cost.
asciilifeform: we have, if you will, a kind of leak. which is what all socialisms is, a disjunction where 'i can eat, these others -- pay'
asciilifeform: gotta disincentivize junk tx. ~including those created or abetted by malicious miners~.
asciilifeform: a null seat in a block, IS, i argue, a type of junk tx
asciilifeform: this is one of the ingredients in the 'debottling' from earlier.
danielpbarron: could make it so a tx spending the smallest unspent output without a sig is considered valid
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: elaborate?
asciilifeform: what means 'smallest unspent output'
danielpbarron: like if I sent 0.00000001
asciilifeform: but why would you do that
asciilifeform: if anyone-can-steal it
trinque: "segwit if whatever amount is tiny" ????
asciilifeform: wtf, why
trinque: I'm more interested in the claim that null tx == junk tx
asciilifeform: trinque: consider the base case : empty block
asciilifeform: when miner makes empty block, he imposes a cost of cou and disk on every current and future user of the coin
asciilifeform: and he is even paid, the moterfucker, for this
trinque: I can see it. he does however lose any fees he might've had.
asciilifeform: *of cpu
danielpbarron: not a cost to anyone who already had a tx confirmed 1 to 5 blocks ago
trinque: the perverse incentive to do this ought to diminish over time as things are
trinque: danielpbarron: what's meant is cost to process the block he shat
asciilifeform: fees, in turn , do zilch to offset the cost of relating tx
asciilifeform: *relaying
danielpbarron: you have to process something. a confirmation is a confirmation
trinque: asciilifeform: sounds like fee ttl is contemplated
asciilifeform: trinque: ttl?
trinque: i.e. every relayer gets nibble of fee
trinque: that would balloon txn size though
asciilifeform: no practical way, afaik, to do such a thing
asciilifeform: it is laughable
asciilifeform: the only practical way to 'pay all users' is by burning some coin.
mircea_popescu: that doesn't pay all users, it pays all holders.
mircea_popescu: it's a rent.
mircea_popescu: rent has been, historically, a poor dike against socialist tide.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: a block, just occupying its 1MB on my disk, costs something.
mircea_popescu: btw, address proposal, if you missed it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if 'a' can shit out tx, 'b' shoulders the cost, but unrelated 'c' is paid by a, you have socialistleak.
mircea_popescu: this is true.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: answrd
mircea_popescu: pong lel.
asciilifeform: might help if somebody did the chore, implemented mp's algo
asciilifeform hands full
mircea_popescu: i implemented it!
asciilifeform: proper implement. eats file on stdin, hash out.
asciilifeform: possibly it makes more sense to think of the hypothetical 'god fee' as a ~punishment~ of tx-ignoring miners, rather than a payment to relayers.
asciilifeform: punishments are beneficial, even if a beheading does not grow a corresponding new head on somebody else, or undo the crime which led to the sentence
mircea_popescu: there's not that many empty blocks anyway
asciilifeform: there ever being any, is a perversion
asciilifeform: and i see some ~every day
mircea_popescu: looky, a common strategy of students that are not in possession of the material is to resolve those problems they think they know how.
asciilifeform: and for all i know, most tx are fake, generated by miner himself, or cartel
asciilifeform: who dun give a shit about fees
mircea_popescu: there isn't an administrative solution to the problem you perceive. if the "godfee" is low, it won't matter, and if it;s high it won't work.
mircea_popescu: apparently you can't make the flock be good christians through tithe control.
asciilifeform: the transition from zero-cost to positive epsilon -- matters
asciilifeform: suddenly, spamola becomes very questionable proposition.
mircea_popescu: this is not a factual descreiption. the transition from opportunity cost + 0 to opportunity cost + epsilon may matter, but so far neither record nor theory offer any convincing reason it would.
asciilifeform: ( today a miner can occupy as much of youts and my disk with shit tx, as he wants )
mircea_popescu: at the cost of the expensive space in mined blocks. yes.
asciilifeform: not so expensive, apparently, if it sits vacant so regularly
mircea_popescu: i don't see this "so regularly"
asciilifeform: for instance -- any and all 0fee tx
asciilifeform: are same, for this purpose, as nulls, neh
danielpbarron: isn't the vacant block easier for you to validate? shouldn't you prefer most blocks to be vacant except when you have a transaction to send?
mircea_popescu: block averages say 5 btc in fees, for about 1mb of space. average tx costs about 2 bux currently.
asciilifeform: ( can mircea_popescu or any other oldtimer even explain to me why 0fee ever existed?? )
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron if we use a fixed block width it will waste disk space.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. to get the system off the ground. i explained this before, im pretty sure.
asciilifeform: forced measure then.
danielpbarron: how is that wasted space any more than other people's transactions are wasted space?
mircea_popescu: if it were the case you had to pay 2 bux to transact in 2011, bitcoin'd have never exiosted
asciilifeform: but why there are 0fees mined ~today~, is beyond me
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron that part wasn't much explained. all mining is technically wasted space for the node, not like they get money for it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because the bitcoin network bandwith far exceeds the ACTUAL transaction needs of the civilised world.
mircea_popescu: contrary to expectations of random orcs.
asciilifeform: node -- bleeds and bleeds. and -- turns out -- operating proper nodes, ain't cheap, esp. with bitcoin's retarded non-O(1) verification, with the db idiocy
mircea_popescu: anyway, to get back to the wallet : i would fucking love to see a mpfhf collision on 513 byte input.
danielpbarron: but to have the ability to send/recieve transactions there is the assumption that the space will be wasted -- user takes on the cost of buying a tool in order to use the skill
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron the analogy doesn't hold. currently the tool gives miners cake while nodes pay for the electricity. there's some people cheering on the sides, which i suppose makes the nodes all warm inside ?
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it ain't 'a cost', like buying a hammer, it's a monotonically-increasing bleed
mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
danielpbarron: a re-occurring cost? like having to replace tools as they wear?
asciilifeform: (ssd ain't cheap, and its price is ~rising~, don't take my word for it, go and see)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu nails it.
asciilifeform: miners get one hell of a free ride, while node operators get such a thick shaft, that there are -- contrary to appearances - virtually none left.
mircea_popescu: pretty much.
asciilifeform bbl; meat.
danielpbarron: without any consensus changes, you could put up a node that will only relay transactions which send a fee to itself. user A wants to send transaction X so makes a few versions of it (doublespends) each sending to same place but giving relay fee to whichever node takes it. whoever gets it to a miner first gets the fee
mircea_popescu: you could, in theory.
danielpbarron: those nodes could even give part of the fee to another node for further paid relaying, by giving with the original transaction along with another one that spends the not-yet confirmed fee (not allowed! i know, but in this case maybe it helps more than it hurts)
mircea_popescu: that's what trinque meant by ttl above
danielpbarron: ah, missed that
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: O(n^2) -- with orphanages etc. - tx verification-- suxx.
asciilifeform: antecedents-in-existing-block or bust.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-story-of-the-bulb-that-was/ << Trilema - The story of the bulb that was
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:22 mircea_popescu: basically nodes are the digital equivalent of women : men fuck them so the state can have babies. hurr durr, pill plox.
asciilifeform: and 'nodes charge' probably isn't practical
asciilifeform: easy to undercut
asciilifeform: 'race to the bottom'
a111: Logged on 2017-02-25 23:39 mircea_popescu: you could, in theory.
mircea_popescu: provisioning nodes on the basis of "the minimum number needed" is insanity.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BCB341DDDEF343017F32DED678F07753D22B62F19B274955AC2AD739FC55E6D2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '82.185.178.65 (ssh-rsa key from 82.185.178.65 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host65-178-static.185-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F5531B421CF54E13A5413500A2CAA7EC23E3D2267C57196B08C217AC2A4EF4B7 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '62.86.29.254 (ssh-rsa key from 62.86.29.254 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host254-29-static.86-62-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/575A15CF2DA998E5E78663389111EFA3BF1F80A47EEB005ED795EA946D20253F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.47.20.107 (ssh-rsa key from 85.47.20.107 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host107-20-static.47-85-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F7EE9D7418360EBF5222D566B0A5B811023AC29616EBC02A9EE52BDB5A00038A << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '2.116.209.1 (ssh-rsa key from 2.116.209.1 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host1-209-static.116-2-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A558B10A1CCC09194358E0502CAFA4415F57F1944DD9FE618E2A2E2D29EFAC0F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.57.196.177 (ssh-rsa key from 217.57.196.177 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host177-196-static.57-217-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/24698AD72475BB28F25AD63CC626A01EC41AF82BC51BC4CB8118FC5B15BDF42E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1095...1183 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '217.57.196.179 (ssh-rsa key from 217.57.196.179 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host179-196-static.57-217-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BCB341DDDEF343017F32DED678F07753D22B62F19B274955AC2AD739FC55E6D2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 9692...0219 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '82.185.178.65 (ssh-rsa key from 82.185.178.65 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (host65-178-static.185-82-b.business.telecomitalia.it. IT)
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mircea_popescu, ben_vulpes , mod6 , et al: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/FEYhA/?raw=true << thus far on dulap. << very cool alf. wow @ 'ProcessBlock (res == 1) took : 218863ms; db write wait: 175065ms'
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/02/major-us-socialist-party-experiences-first-contested-chair-contest-in-decades-as-internal-divisions-grow/ << Qntra - Major US Socialist Party Experiences First Contested Chair Contest In Decades As Internal Divisions Grow
shinohai: https://github.com/sparky005/constbot <<< Moar losing party tears
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2017/02/automotive-insurance-premiums-surging-in-united-states-texting-blamed/ << Qntra - Automotive Insurance Premiums Surging In United States, Texting Blamed
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1142.22, vol: 6191.70566313 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 1128.554, vol: 5174.1881 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1142.1, vol: 17915.48912693 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1092.001456, vol: 4756.02690000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1140.23, vol: 2321.4936139 | Volume-weighted last average: 1133.52004477
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