Hide Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-08-20 | 2016-08-22 → ↓
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 426142 | Current Difficulty: 2.1737548275723764E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 427391 | Next Difficulty In: 1249 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 2 hours, 38 minutes, and 57 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
znort987: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 426181 | Current Difficulty: 2.1737548275723764E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 427391 | Next Difficulty In: 1210 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 12 hours, 22 minutes, and 21 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
znort987: after the great schism, was the wot forked as well ?
znort987: or more practically, is there a page where the wot as used in #trilema can be explored ?
mircea_popescu: $gettrust mircea_popescu znort987
deedbot: L1: 1, L2: 2 by 4 connections.
mircea_popescu: that's the mechanismcurrently ; mike_c- made a visualizer but it was never updated, so it has old/assbot data.
mircea_popescu: speaking of which... who wants to make a visualizer already ? i tried emailing the guy months ago but no answer.
znort987: mircea_popescu: but how does one get to the comments entered along with ratings ?
shinohai: mircea_popescu: I spoke with mod6 about a v-style wot viewer, now may be the time to expound upon said idea.
mircea_popescu: znort987 deedbot has a json for that, lemme find it for it
mircea_popescu: shinohai aha ?
mircea_popescu: trinque http://wiki.deedbot.org/ 502s, how the hell did the json thing work ?
trinque: $wot
trinque: hola desde Costa Rica
trinque: also
trinque: $reputation znort987
trinque: $ratings znort987
mircea_popescu: gotta edit the help huh. did you decide not to wiki ?
shinohai: saludos trinque o/
mircea_popescu: wait wait, you're in Costa Rica ?
shinohai: Por razon de eso no llegaste ayer.
trinque: si hasta lunes
mircea_popescu: listen : go to the president cafe or w/e it'scalled, the one right across from the teatre / across the street from that park, an' take some pics.
mircea_popescu: ill pay your tab.
trinque: voy a reemplazar wiki de mierda con wp-mp
trinque: k, ha, a chick on out cruise said the same
trinque: I'm off to the rainforest for now.
shinohai hands trinque juju beads against zika
trinque: muchas gracias mircea_popescu
trinque: adios!
znort987: trinque: thx, what I was looking for.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9B9B0ED6921A8C15003519B16DAED0FB79CB70782F178A4DD5CE5FBDCF85C47A << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 29 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Yumeomi Tanaki; '
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/700B8BCB736ABB90FBD44CF67F97D08BC607249723DCD55DBC2A7CD36C495D4E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 29 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '71.39.252.162 (ssh-rsa key from 71.39.252.162 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+71.39.252.162@mkj.lt>; '
mircea_popescu: first case of koch-gpg / openshit-ssh keys sharing a factor. pity it's such a lulzy one, HOWEVER, it does make the "sks error" nonsense just a little more lulzy.
thestringpuller: ;;seen jurov
gribble: jurov was last seen in #trilema 1 day, 1 hour, 32 minutes, and 44 seconds ago: <jurov> so far not, but i will turn it off if something arises that needs nontrivial fix
mircea_popescu: incidentally, who still had a tardstalk account ?
shinohai shinohai has krusty tardstalk account
mircea_popescu: shinohai i need some noobs to labour for me in eulora. put a post up wherever it fits, jobs board if they have it ? saying that i'll pay 1 bitcent / 2 hours of work. first task is to get gpg key made and registered with deedbot after which install game and ask for acct. once they're in they get the first bitcent, after which they'll get tasks.
shinohai: kk mircea_popescu ... I'll find relevant section and make up a post
mircea_popescu: piles and piles of unskilled labour piling up.
shinohai prefers writing to gaming
thestringpuller: $s chainalysis
phf: i was following menswear scene at some point, and could never understand the obsession with italian pigeons. there's an american equivalent, which i call kanye blacks, where straight black guys dress in tight fitting over the top preppy clothes (ascots and vests in aggressive patterns are usually involved, or odd mismatched shit like http://i1020.photobucket.com/albums/af328/pynk747/louis-vuitton-party-pharrell-751800.jpg), but at least
phf: here i can understand the ugh thinking. but this http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/sprezzatura-lino-ieluzzi-ranato-plutino.jpg ? in #menswear this is supposed to be the hight of male style. the fuck is wrong with these people.
phf: *height
thestringpuller: skinny jeans
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-19#1525034 << very belated, but i got hung up on the cost of time donated and the value produced
a111: Logged on 2016-08-19 12:40 mircea_popescu: so on other news, i am writing teh republic's "cia factbook", and on the matter of gdp i would like to have an estimate of the "fair market value of the total time donated to republic during 2015" in the estimation of everyone involved. detailed is better, but nothing over a page omg.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-19#1525437 << do you barbarians not have the supercritical co2 process out there?
a111: Logged on 2016-08-19 17:41 thestringpuller: PeterL: partially. They use butane solvents for the initial extract on the east coast cause higher yields, but butane sucks.
ben_vulpes: i haven't seen a vial prepared in any other way in over a year
ben_vulpes: there are companies selling turnkey extraction systems even.
ben_vulpes: http://www.vrlife.news/president-virtual-reality-unveils-plans-create-3-million-jobs-virtual-public-transport-ipo/ << unrelated low-dough lolz from #b-a. features an actor for president of vr, a 2.50 minimum wage, a stock market and oh man it's too good really
ben_vulpes: pinoys in full effect.
phf: william gibson predicted everything, i claim as far as futurists go, he's been on point for a few decades now
thestringpuller: ben_vulpes: CO2 supercritical requires a CO2 supply.
thestringpuller: It's the _best_ way, but also triggers lots of alarms.
thestringpuller: So scrubs resort to dirty ass butane they can get from like home depot.
shinohai: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 426230 | Current Difficulty: 2.1737548275723764E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 427391 | Next Difficulty In: 1161 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 5 hours, 4 minutes, and 5 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: shinohai a sec
mircea_popescu: phf dandys always end up faggots. it is the way of the world, ordained by orson scott welles.
mircea_popescu: curious what that yields.
mircea_popescu: is there a reddit thing for jobz or such ?
shinohai: I guess I'll babysit it and see if we get any bites
mircea_popescu: aite. dun kill yourself over it.
shinohai: Just noticed I had used the <a> tags, replaced with BBcode nau
mircea_popescu: what's nw ?
shinohai: no worries
mircea_popescu: a cool. neways, ima be off to... well things, but ima be back in a few hours in case anyone actually shows up. ta da.
shinohai: mkay have fun!
danielpbarron: "Bitcoin doesn't enforce checksums at the protocol level either." << is this true? A block that includes a transaction which spends to an address with an invalid checksum can be considered valid?
danielpbarron: http://blockscan.com/orderinfo/11934437 << lol, my CAKE holdings are apparently worth over half a bitcoin now :D
deedbot: accepted: 1
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron afaik yes.
BingoBoingo: <thestringpuller> So scrubs resort to dirty ass butane they can get from like home depot. << What they don't carry CO2 at your home depot? You live in the Capital of Home Depot!
mircea_popescu: * umoguny has quit << lol why is this shit so hard seriously nao.
deedbot: edw voiced for 30 minutes.
danielpbarron: why do people go to the trouble of making burn addresses that have valid checksums if such a thing isn't enforced by consensus rules?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron it's enforced in the sense high-s is enforced : miners won't mine it.
mircea_popescu: if YOU mine it however...
BingoBoingo: <danielpbarron> why do people go to the trouble of making burn addresses that have valid checksums if such a thing isn't enforced by consensus rules? << Because you can either make baby or you can make baby but feed girl levaqin while baby is baking.
mircea_popescu: ok, you're like the champ of bad metaphors, but that one's the worst yet. wut ?!
danielpbarron: oh ok it wasn't just me :D
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: levaquin and related antibiotics do the weird arm/stump/hand-ish birth defect.
danielpbarron: so invalid address is a thing like nlock is a thing. What is the republic's take on that? I know nlock isn't well regarded, but what is the harm in rejecting invalid address? or is there no such thing as an invalid address?
mircea_popescu: no, i know.
mircea_popescu: it's not that i don't understand the parts.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron nothing wrong with rejecting invalid addresse.s
mircea_popescu: seeing how they're oft typed by hand, it's a common courtesy.
danielpbarron: a courtesy that might cause a block to be orphaned, i guess is the primary reason to no actually enforce it
mircea_popescu: $up kunickis
deedbot: kunickis voiced for 30 minutes.
a111: Logged on 2013-10-13 20:09 mircea_popescu: please do.
mircea_popescu: dun hate, the bitcoin community! is going to do things! ANY MINUTE NAO.
ben_vulpes: the kapersky blog attempts to append to the pastebuffer with js anything copied from a page on "threatpost.com"
mircea_popescu: dumb shit, was all the rage among a certain set a few years ago.
mircea_popescu: oh ben_vulpes i thought you were on about the tardstalk thing. no, i know/knew who chsados was.
mircea_popescu: the interbitcoin was a lot tighterly knit five years ago, chiefly because much fewer "business" tards.
mircea_popescu: ahahahaahah. ok this is just fucking precious.
mircea_popescu: Robert Rohloff, a 34-year police veteran who has to worry about staffing, budgets, and patrolling the busiest commercial district in Tulsa, says there’s nothing funny about Walmart’s impact on public safety. He can’t believe, he says, that a multibillion-dollar corporation isn’t doing more to stop crime. Instead, he says, it offloads the job to the police at taxpayers’ expense."
mircea_popescu: so what the fuck IS the police there for and why the fuck is a private corp's job to "fight crime" and why the everloving fuck would they pay taxes if they're supposed to fight crime on their own anwyay
BingoBoingo: Eh, walmart lost the part of their institutional memory that contained substantial cattle herding prowess around the time they turned into the town commons
mircea_popescu: the derping is amusing. "oh, why do these people running the CHEAPEST store not spend money like the people running not-so-cheap-stores? ???"
BingoBoingo: Anyways the big shift seemed to happen when they went all in on the grocery business and started eating the foodstamp racket from both ends
mircea_popescu: at some point libtards will have to wake up to the realisation that their implementation of freedom, for all its warts, has created a bunch of idiots, who are good for nothing but to shoplift and maaaaybe assault.
mircea_popescu: not that they'll do that if they can in any way help it, obviously.
mircea_popescu: "oh it's walmart's fault". no bitch, it's your fault for thinking joe's daddy may not bitchslap joe's mommy, and teachers shouldn't keep a leather whip by the markbook just in case, and so on and so forth.
mircea_popescu: "what's a markbook"
phf: it'll be someone else's fault till the very end
mircea_popescu: yeah. damn that walmart for not spending money it doesn't have and "offloading" the police's job on the police at "Taxpayers" (=walmart) expense.
phf: pretty sure Hillary can fix it
mircea_popescu: i thought hillary thought america is already great ? what fixing.
mircea_popescu: might be the same big-socialist-party candidate stupid enough to run on a panglossian ticket for first term.
mircea_popescu: i can't recall another.
mircea_popescu: the first* not the same i mean.
phf: asciilifeform: do you have a gnupg1 version, that can be used as a trb-like base? i want to go through an execise of reading a diff between some version that can be relied on with all the disclaimers and whatever's in the trunk
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2016/08/turkish-wedding-wrecked-by-tween-bomber/ << Qntra - Turkish Wedding Wrecked By Tween Bomber
phf: danke schön
asciilifeform: ;;later tell phf this is a good project but gnudiff is laughably dull knife for the job. see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-19#1525177 .
a111: Logged on 2016-08-19 14:56 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 i came to this by attempting vdiff of gnupg 1.4.10 vs their .21 release from wednesday, and ending up with an unreadable 8MB turd, they moved/rm'd a buncha files.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: phf: koch, drepper, weimer (yes, i shit thee not, all three participated, grep for them in the credits) took great care to make this job as painful as can be.
asciilifeform: moved files, shuffled the shit, left and right.
asciilifeform: i sat down to sift through this rubbish on 3 separate occasions, ended up with very little useful info
asciilifeform: but is very much worth a shot, esp. if you are prepared to run exotic (e.g., needleman-wunsch sequence alignment algo) difftrons, or the like.
asciilifeform: or at least something that understands file movement and doesn't shit out multi-meg turds.
mircea_popescu: eh. they're ~as ineffectual as could be.
a111: Logged on 2015-03-04 06:52 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: does engl. have a catch-term for 'fatal buggery' ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no need to posit effectual, this particular bit of squid ink was not difficult.
asciilifeform: and gnudiff is just about the dullest knife imaginable.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-20#1526025 << didja use the minus in USE ? i have apm working fine on the box whose build resulted in that posted recipe.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-20 20:43 phf: only thing i can't figure out with asciilifeform's killfile is how to get laptop to do apm related stuff. the main package depends on dbus
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ( box entirely and wholly free of dbus and other poetteringism )
phf: asciilifeform: there's some other package like laptop-mode maybe, that has a collection of shell scripts that live on top of apm and actually make do all the sensible things
phf: i'll boot the laptop in a few and share the relevant details for interested parties
asciilifeform: phf: i have never used this item, cannot comment.
asciilifeform: but do please post.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-20#1526079 << i watched thread and wondered how long an (allegedly) cunt-enabled ninjashogun would last in the field, vs a conventional one. seems like we have an answer.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-20 23:15 covertress: mircea_popescu, I'll elaborate when I bring his proposal, in person.
phf: i don't remember if i got hybernate to work, but my immediate problem was abysmal battery life on literally single emacs buffer and no daemons
asciilifeform: phf: abysmal on what ? is this a box that ever had anything like good life ?
asciilifeform: or one of those wonders that was good for 2h when brand-new, on winblowz
phf: x1 carbon, original owner would run ubuntu on it with ~~6h when editing text
phf: it dropped to about 2
asciilifeform: phf: the answer, in my experience, is typically the gpu
phf: yeah, i think i figured out how to power down radeon and use intel, which solved some of the issues, but there's also a bunch of other peripherals, that remain powered-up even not in use, bluetooth, gsm, etc.
asciilifeform: built-in ?
asciilifeform: typically these can be killed in bios
phf: yeah, one of few devices with such!
asciilifeform: or even physically pulled out.
phf: you know, i don't think i've actually checked bios come to think of it
asciilifeform: switch off all of the genuinely-unused junk
asciilifeform: (or, gold standard, pull the boards out, if there are such)
phf: i'm pretty sure it's already macbook air school of engineering
asciilifeform: phf: i have yet to find ONE single box where wifi/bluetooth and gsm are soldered down
asciilifeform: my understanding is that this is not done for american regulatory reason
asciilifeform: (the components have to be certified separately)
phf: i'll give it another try. i started using it prematurely, and was basically running around looking for a powerplug at the point where i really didn't want to deal with shit like that
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-21#1526139 << sooooooo apparently the cobza from mircea_popesculand is different instrument than the cobza from urkland. whod'vethunkit.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-21 01:06 mircea_popescu: the song goes "uite-asa as vrea sa mor, cu paharul linga mine, cu cobzarul linga mine, intr-o crisma din obor, sa scriu cind o fi momentul cu vin rosu testamentul. sa-i tragem o betie de pomina sa fie"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-21#1526130 << ah usa, land of the phreeee, of the streets full of pubs with gigantic parking lots.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-21 00:59 phf: for all the jokes about russian vodka drinking, the amount of "functional alcoholism" i've seen in ussa is staggering. i literally cut contact with about 70% of my friends from my 20s, because they are slob alcoholics with no self control. so it's either health nuts who don't touch the stuff (or rarely) or else it's "50 minutes of квас and then race to the bottom" crowd
phf: oh also i couldn't figure out how to get intel to work on x11, rather than radeon. it seems like it requires some boot time pokes, which you need hurd to execute (or else figure out how to run a random code from lilo but before kernel is loaded, etc.)
phf: err, not hurd, of course, grub
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 00:23 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-20#1526079 << i watched thread and wondered how long an (allegedly) cunt-enabled ninjashogun would last in the field, vs a conventional one. seems like we have an answer.
asciilifeform: with a veeeeeeeery speshul offer!
asciilifeform: just for mircea_popescu !
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-22#1526366 << listen, get replacement batteries. you'll be surprised.
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 00:24 phf: x1 carbon, original owner would run ubuntu on it with ~~6h when editing text
mircea_popescu: even 5 yo "originals" suck when compared with good quality contempos. at least THAT much came out of usg's tesla sponsorship : the chinese now make much better batteries.
phf: not sure i can source a custom battery though
mircea_popescu: why not ?
asciilifeform: phf: get yerself a spot welder
asciilifeform: and can make your own
asciilifeform: out of the old.
asciilifeform: often sold as 'tab welder' tool.
phf: mircea_popescu: never mind, wrong on that account too
asciilifeform: or if you have large capacitor lying around, from stereo system junk (1F and +) make your own.
mircea_popescu: i really wouldn't advise anyone to open a li-ion shit. why the fuck would you do that, next step is go to africa root through garbage for a living.
phf: that thing looks like an air, so i figured it was junk, internally. but it's quite reasonable. harddrive has a rapid replacement design, etc.
mircea_popescu: lotta learned helplessness eh phf ? :D
asciilifeform: ^ i still want to learn where the brit got the sound track
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the cell comes out of the plastic box and separates from the proprietary connector and monitor pcb
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this is a useful ability for folks who keep stables of genuinely old lappy
asciilifeform: (for which there is NO chinese ready battery)
mircea_popescu: point is that cells improved significantly in recent practice.
mircea_popescu: and you'd be amazed, also.
asciilifeform: aha, gut the old box and put in modern chemistry.
asciilifeform: (li poly)
phf: mircea_popescu: i am, i am ashamed to admit it, feel comfortable in the warm embrace of apple's unix boxes, so transitioning out has been slow and painful.
mircea_popescu: hey, whatever works. tho in my experience apple never made usable anything.
phf: goes back to that whole literacy thing, sort of stuck with me..
phf: -void disable_dotlock(void) {}
phf: +void dotlock_disable(void) {}
asciilifeform: ahahahahahahaha
asciilifeform: typical.
asciilifeform: phf: how much battery time won with ^ above ?
phf: "Versions of GnuPG before 1.4.11 and 2.0.16 allowed to import bogus direct key signatures."
phf: - int readonly=!!(flags&8);
phf: + int read_only=!!(flags&8);
phf:
phf: fwiw there aren't any file renames between .10 and .21, but certainly plenty of fluff like that
asciilifeform: phf: why is my diff 8M then.
phf: diff is still 36k of lines!
phf: asciilifeform: because you didn't strategically apply excludes to things that harbor nazis collaborators, but still should be probably inspected separately
asciilifeform: where did phf make the cuts ?
asciilifeform: ^ reasonable.
phf: none have code, except for bzlib that was brought into the codebase
asciilifeform: automake is a work of evil, first thing i did when sawing off the mpi lib is to nuke it.
asciilifeform: it is loathesome and is to die, no exceptions.
phf: zlib was patched up, very minor patches, but somehow it was necessary to bring in example.c "usage example of the zlib compression library"
phf: riscos.c was added "RISC OS stuff". aha.
phf: estream-printf got a whole blob for testing added including #ifdef TEST and emacs bindings for compile-command to do rapid testing from inside the file. how hacky
phf: oh "intl" is gettext, so that can be cut too. of course, "nazi collaborators here" disclaimer
phf: which brings line count to 15k
asciilifeform: (there is a newer and yet-unpublished edition of this.)
phf: i like how they added a stub for GOST
phf: with empty implementation file, and #error don't use this inside
asciilifeform can never again think of gost cipher without thinking of maslennikov's adventures.
phf: that's as clean as i can get it in a single pass http://107.170.141.103/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/gnupg.diff
phf: 443K
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell asciilifeform Not quite.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
phf: there are some clearly meat-y parts, and then there's a lot of gendered pronounce
phf: there's also bits (like riscos.c which i think is part of zlib and dotlock*), which i think are imported/updated from external sources
phf: i need to patch site icon on that host, it still T
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 00:57 phf: "Versions of GnuPG before 1.4.11 and 2.0.16 allowed to import bogus direct key signatures."
mircea_popescu: i guess we ping Framedragger ? or let him be ?
a111: Logged on 2016-08-22 01:02 asciilifeform: automake is a work of evil, first thing i did when sawing off the mpi lib is to nuke it.
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2016/08/21/what-king-do-you-think-youre-living-like-exactly/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - What King do you think you’re living like exactly?
asciilifeform: 'automake' is the massive turd that runs when you ./configure .
mircea_popescu: and so you don't like ./configure ?
asciilifeform: it is 100K to 1M of mildly variated boilerplate, typically.
asciilifeform: and often dwarfs the proggy it is trying to build.
mircea_popescu: yes ? and the alternative is what, hand-curated perl scriptsw ?
asciilifeform: and attempts various bogus things like 'finding your libs'
asciilifeform: alternative is 1kb of 'i set lib paths here'.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how i'd do eulora client install w/o it.
asciilifeform: as seen in my mpi item earlier.
asciilifeform: and yes all kinds of folks who dun know better think 'i cannot do X without it'
asciilifeform: sounds familiar, neh ?
asciilifeform: thing is, 99% of what the thing does is wholly unnecessary for a given proggy.
mircea_popescu: yes, but : currently, the compile process is NOT the most difficult part of "noob getting eulora running". (turns out, interacting with irc is. lol.)
mircea_popescu: i dun want this to change.
asciilifeform: but is there 'anyway' because the fungus in rms's left ear told him that a build script weighing a meg was somehow ok
asciilifeform: and nor a mortal sin.
asciilifeform: to see example of sane build script:
asciilifeform: mod6's trb-builder.
asciilifeform: witness - no automake !
asciilifeform: not even retardoshi had automake in bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: well that's because automake doesn't work in visual studio.
phf: trb builds on three systems altogether, and it's still a pita
mircea_popescu: phf yeah. i have a problem in that i want to impose eulora as standard for republic code ; but nevertheless automake IS a humongo pile of perl.
asciilifeform: automake is a rancid pile of shit and my first contact with any project that contains it is to shoot it in the head.
mircea_popescu: do you understand what's being said here or just spewing ?
phf: automake solves a bootstrapping problem in that common subtrate across all posix systems is "sh", so it's a tcl-like macro language built on top of shell. biggest problem with it (besides the typical communal retardation) is that nobody actually spends any time trying to understand it, before dismissing it
mircea_popescu: phf i wonder if a "prune down to THIS codebase" function would be useful.
mircea_popescu: ie, it wipes out of itself everything it doesn't actually use.
phf: mircea_popescu: it's already in there
mircea_popescu: aclocal or what was it ?
mircea_popescu: or no, wait
mircea_popescu: phf what is it ?
phf: i'm trying to remember what the current name is (which is where community retardation comes from) but yeah, aclocal is where you spec out just the things that you need for project
mircea_popescu: yeah but it doesn't do it by itself. it's just a macro merge thing neh ?
asciilifeform: gpg 1.4.10 has a 'configure 800K in mass.
phf: because configure is generated
mircea_popescu: eulora configure.ac is 27kb ; configure however is 720k.
asciilifeform: aha. and most of what generator outputs has 0 to do with particular program.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, there's the primary file, where you say things "i need a c compiler for this project"
mircea_popescu: iirc same proportions with gnupg and everything else.
mircea_popescu: what i had in mind phf is, automake runs on project, keeps track of every bit of itself that it actually called, then inserts a pruned down version of itself somewhere, so you can ship the software with THAT instead of the whole automake.
asciilifeform: here is a sample 2 lines from that config:
asciilifeform: # Zsh 3.x and 4.x performs word splitting on ${1+"$@"}, which
asciilifeform: # is contrary to our usage. Disable this feature.
asciilifeform: ^ where i say FUCK anyone who uses zhs. fuck people using orc glyphs. fuck anyone whose compiler is not in $CXX. automake is dead weight.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it ~does something~.
mircea_popescu: what it does is exactly this : takes a situation where "fuck 83% of people" and allows them to install w/e it is you're making.
phf: mircea_popescu: well, there's the primary file, which is your *.ac, which using autoconf generates your ./configure Makefile.in etc. ~those~ can be shipped with project and will work out of the box
mircea_popescu: that's how we do it currently.
asciilifeform: it pulls paths of dependencies by bruteforce searching for various items
a111: Logged on 2016-08-18 02:48 mircea_popescu: configure: error: libgpg-error is needed.
mircea_popescu: nah, the retardation making it ~impossible to compile gpg 2."current" has 0 to do with automake.
asciilifeform: has everything to do with it.
mircea_popescu: they hardwired a bad path in there and i ran outof patience before finding the right magic knob.
asciilifeform: has to do with program being written by heathens who do not understand that ALL deps must be CARRIED !
asciilifeform: as trb does.
mircea_popescu: had they properly used automake the problem wouldn't have existed.
asciilifeform: 'you use zip? fine, carry zip.'
asciilifeform: recall mircea_popescu's '#include must die' thread ?
mircea_popescu: phf only problem is, configure script is like 700kb.
phf: mircea_popescu: that's pretty much how it goes. hardwired paths because "fuck automake" or patching ./configure directly or all kinds of variations on the theme
mircea_popescu: actually ~every project of "battlefield" size seems to end up with a half mb to mb configure script.
asciilifeform: this comes from misguided refusal to standardize the build context.
asciilifeform: 'no you may NOT build this on vms and expect support' is the correct path.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do you understand the population of mouthbreathers out there is mystified by webirc page ?
mircea_popescu: well then.
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu expects them to compile the game ?
mircea_popescu: hence - automake.
asciilifeform: they will find a way to set house on fire while running ./configure.
mircea_popescu: not so far.
mircea_popescu: so far the major problem is irc usage ; and gpg/deedbot a very distant second.
asciilifeform: y'know, 'distribute exe' is ~even easier~ on the n00bz and rubes, but mircea_popescu doesn't do this.
mircea_popescu: ie, anything that's different from the variety of keymashing they're used to from "work"
mircea_popescu: i sort-of do yes. via jurov
asciilifeform: automake works when very carefully used, but the result is a massive turd that is autogenerated, that NO ONE will ever read, and does ???. with 10,001 system-specific #ifdef's.
mircea_popescu: on the other hand, it allows derps to build.
asciilifeform: this is part 'i just wanted to!' if you like, but in no conceivable universe 'republican standard for code.'
mircea_popescu being the derps in question nine cases out of ten. no fucking way am i going to chase obscure deps on your obscure project.
asciilifeform: i hear microshit studio is even better at 'allow derps to build
asciilifeform: wanna switch to that..?
asciilifeform: don't chase deps !
asciilifeform: distribute with the proggy.
asciilifeform: as trb does.
mircea_popescu: so what am i goingto do, compile nvidia driver ?
mircea_popescu: har har.
asciilifeform: we already have a working example of 'sane proggy, sane build system.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: automake doesn't build the gpu driver.
phf: trb's build system is not sane
mircea_popescu: your sane proggy does ~nothing. certainly no graphs.
mircea_popescu: phf why ?
phf: it doesn't satisfy our own requirements of fits in head, it goes through a rube goldberg machine in order to produce a specific build for a specific system. "mac os x? fuck you. openbsd? fuck you". it doesn't succeed at own goal of producing bit identical builds.
asciilifeform: and i ain't ever signing GENERATED code. not for love nor money.
asciilifeform: not unless i READ it, and i will not read 800KB of boilerplate sh crapolade.
mircea_popescu: i... signed base64'd matter.
mircea_popescu: seems pure fetishism. "i'm not signing generated code" well... yousigned ... your signature didn;t you ?
mircea_popescu: if you know what the generator does, what's the problem.
asciilifeform: automake stinks, and not a hearty, productive stink, like diesel engines of a maersk tanker, but the stink of liquishit in the diaper of profoundly retarded teenager smearing all over padded cell.
phf: "i don't like it"
mircea_popescu: the metaphor breaks down on / depends on not noticing that IT DELIVERS.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: go an' try reading the generator.
asciilifeform: then see what you think.
mircea_popescu: yeswell.
asciilifeform: visual shitudio ALSO 'delivers'.
mircea_popescu: that part's not so much in dispute. methinks i said above.
phf: hence we have buildroot, equally unsigned, pretty sure ~nobody~ here read all of it, or relevant parts for the build system
asciilifeform: phf: this is also a problem.
mircea_popescu: phf iirc he put a historical version in deedbot neh ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you ?
asciilifeform: but notice, i never picked up a microphone and proclaimed 'buildroot will be part of a republican standard for code'
mircea_popescu: ah, to clarify : i do not mean "automake". i mean the process.
asciilifeform: which process ?
mircea_popescu: this thing whereby noob sits down, pastes four commands off wiki, gets working game. every time.
asciilifeform: this is an illusion.
mircea_popescu: i dun care what the lines are per se.
asciilifeform: like all stage magic, it is satisfying when it works.
mircea_popescu: it so far works.
asciilifeform: but there is not, in our universe, actual magic.
asciilifeform: there is only 'thus far the users happened to have the correct deps'.
mircea_popescu: this thing works. and it works in a very messy environment - gfx drivers, a raft of dependencies, etc.
asciilifeform: perhaps because of the dire monoculture of african linux, perhaps not, i have nfi who has been building
mircea_popescu: not so, the deps are actually enumerated.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if the thing uses opengl, it doesn't care about gpu driver
mircea_popescu: oh but it does.
asciilifeform brb, alcohol
mircea_popescu: oh what sweet delusion, "opengl will handle things for you".
phf: there's also a dozen of different "opengl"
mircea_popescu: in any case, the whole discussion is about "something like automake" in the sense of "gimme magic"
phf: automake is distinctly not magic. it's a text interpolation macro system. i'm pretty sure there's not even a tree shaker there (i.e. if you check for gcc, you check for gcc every time something says "i need gcc". only reason it's not done a dozen of times is because there's also a check "did i check for gcc already?". never the less all those dozen gcc checks end up in ./configure)
mircea_popescu: phf question is why wasn't it made saner.
mircea_popescu: i don't even understand why does it parse rather than compile, for instance. seems a very nutty design decision.
phf: afaiu it's because of subtrate problem. there are some programs that are specified in posix, so they are going to be on every system. sh, m4, already compiled by vendor.
mircea_popescu: rather than "read line, check if we checked, check" wouldn't it be saner to "read all lines, create list of checks, check list" ?
phf: so you either rely on those, or you have a chicken and egg problem (how do i compile c without knowing how to compile c)
mircea_popescu: i don;t follow.
phf: programming in sh/m4 combination is not a sane thing
phf: well, so sh/m4 are dumb. one is a very primitive programming language (no portable notion of arrays for example, so "read all lines" "create a list" is not a straightforward thing), the other one is a templating language
mircea_popescu: let's work with an abstract example. suppose there's project X, which can for the purpose of configure be reduced to a list of n lines, whereby each line produces a dependency from the list of D1- D5 by the criterion that line# mod 5. so a sane autoconf will read the whole list, produce a list reading "d1, d2, d3, d4, d5" and then proceed to check these. once. five fucking checks, five lines of checking.
mircea_popescu: and sure, maybe d1 = "need to compile c code" in which case "check for d1" means "do we have a way to compile c code on this system ? ok, what is it ? and how is it invoked ? ok here we go then :"
phf: need to compile c code is already about 50 checks (do have "NULL"? do we have "malloc"?), but i follow
mircea_popescu: so it's 50 checks. whatever it may be.
mircea_popescu: basically, seems to me most, or at least a good chunk of autoconf problems as described by alf come from the fact that it tries to parse, rather than compile. in the abstract sense of these terms.
mircea_popescu: and parsing is uniquely inadequate for its task. in fact, its task is more adequate to compiling than c code is.
mircea_popescu: which really, isn't also parsed in the way lisp is also parsed because people are emotionally attached, and no other reason.
mircea_popescu: heck, gcc is not much better than a three pass parser most of the time.
phf: i think the reason is that the sh/m4 combo is particularly well suited for what you call parsing. really it's very well suited at "expanding code". it's wholly inadequate for building compilers
phf: there are no arrays. you literally don't get better storage than "text in a variable". there's very limited math. even expressing something simple "do this n times" is pain.
phf: neither were designed for programming, sh is rudimentary even by bash standards. on linux sh is linked to bash, but elsewhere you might actually encounter a barely posix take on it.
phf: hence asciilifeform's "don't compile this on VMS" comment.
phf: but fwiw even if openbsd, say, will give you a similar compilation environment, it's not going to give you bash out of the box. it's ksh, so you're back to "least common sh denominator"
phf: i say it's a chicken and egg problem, because you know you can get vendor versions of posix tools (and then still reduce the available "language" even more, by taking away some features that might be missing in nominally posix sh on some obscure system), but you can't really do anything else, until you established some truths about your environment
phf: new takes on build systems suffer, because they rely on high level languages. and if your vendor didn't provide you with perl or python, you're back to squire one "how do i compile my build system on this machine"
phf: *square
mircea_popescu: ok, but i mean... so we drive nails with screwdriver because that's what we got.
mircea_popescu: of course the process and its result will be horrifying.
phf: exactly
mircea_popescu: but it is evident the blame isn't autoconf's per se.
phf: but autoconf being at the subtrate level is testament to "unix won", its purpose to give you details about "what's unix" given the tools that are available at the most abstract level of unixness
mircea_popescu: and trying to implement a "better" autoconf, even "by hand", will not result in anything better
mircea_popescu: except it will appear to, for a briefd interval at first. then it will create friction between purists and inclusionists, which is just about as dumb drama as livejournal disputes.
phf: i think at best it could be trimmed down, but i think even that's doable by limiting the number of m4 macros used for includes. or perhaps being very specific with what you want. "i need gcc 4" will necessarily be less messy than "i need a c compiler", considering that most of the time the program is not ready to deal with wide range of compilers anyway
mircea_popescu: yes, but that kills you because rando will have gcc 5
phf: well, since asciilifeform's not here "let them eat nagant! wake me up when less stupid people!"
mircea_popescu: in other, unrelated-ish sad : to this day, "web development" has no javascript tree shaker.
mircea_popescu: phf once management has put compatibility on your list of targets, you can say that all you want, best done in a mutter under own beard.
phf: fwiw trb and eulora have opposite goals as far as exposure
mircea_popescu: nothing wrong with this. but also no solution to problem.
phf: i think crystal whatever is particularly nasty take on autoconf, probably one of the best examples in support of asciilifeform's rants.
mircea_popescu: ironically, it is also one of the most solid parts of the entire codebase.
phf: only worse autoconf build i've seen was clisp, but in the later case it was written by one of autoconf authors, so while it was elaborate it was at the very least sane
mircea_popescu: anyway ; it's evident that in the future republican code will have one of the two possible profiles (trb-like ; eulora-like), not necessarily one, and certainly not necessarily the former.
phf: do you know if my changes were integrated into the release? because last time i checked the build wasn't doing autoconf, but simply using patches generated scripts.
mircea_popescu: phf eulora can't pull current cs because they fucked it up. so i wouldn't know.
phf: i went through the whole exercise of rebuilding the scripts from their respective ac files
phf: by changes i mean the homebrew build patches. pretty sure i said something about "please look at them patches" in #eulora, probably to jurov or diana_coman. i highly doubt it was done, so more suffering on their part :>
mircea_popescu: oh. isn't that os/x specific ?
mircea_popescu: diana_coman did we eat that up or what happened do you recall ?
phf: nah, those patches were crossplatform by design
mircea_popescu: in truth we've been working on all sorts of things other than build process for months nao.
phf: right
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